George Lucas and ILM Tribute

[00:00:00] This podcast is a production of Unfiltered Studios. If you would like to know more about joining Unfiltered Studios, please visit our website at unfpod.com for more information. The day after I saw The Phantom Menace, I sat down for a talk with George Lucas and predictably, he wanted to talk mostly about special effects.

[00:00:18] We'll get to that conversation in a moment, but first let's flash back nine years to that 1990 conversation I had with Lucas at his Skywalker Ranch, where he looked ahead to what he wanted to accomplish in this movie. That computer technology isn't really to a point now where it's cost effective. And I would say within five years, the computer technology will be cheaper than the old-fashioned way.

[00:00:40] It's amusing because people are so willing to casually say, oh, it's all done on computers. Whatever you're talking about, people say, oh, it's all done on computers these days. And it isn't all done on computers yet. Believe me, I've been involved in a lot of state-of-the-art computer technology, and you'd be surprised what they can't do. Well, that was in 1990, but computers have been moving fast, and they can sure do it right now. Lucas told me after the Phantom Menace screening that he knew computers would get faster, but he didn't realize how much faster and more versatile they would become.

[00:01:09] You know, through struggling with ILM over the years and developing this sort of new digital revolution, and kind of hoping that the technology sort of advanced itself, we finally got on Jurassic Park to the point where I could say, we can create a photorealistic digital character that looks as real as any actor does. And with that, I started saying we can do the new Star Wars, and I can do it. And writing it was so much fun because I just said, I am not going to limit myself on this one.

[00:01:39] I'm going to open the box. I'm just going to write whatever I want, no matter how outrageous, and I'm just going to see if I can pull it off. Lucas told me he still has a lot of affection for Yoda, but that such physical puppets, however evolved and skillfully manipulated, have their limits compared to animation. Before, I think, with Frank Oz and Yoda, I was able to carry sort of puppet acting or rubber creature acting as far as it could go. I think Frank's performance was amazing.

[00:02:08] And, you know, for a strange creature who has to act and do a performance, he really pulled that off. But he couldn't walk very far. You know, there was a very, very limited kind of performance that I could do with something like that. And I was just so desperate to have an alien creature that I could turn into a real character, that had a real personality, that could act and do a good performance, you know, equal to the other actors in the film.

[00:02:34] Jar Jar Binks, on the other hand, can fully interact with the human characters in three dimensions. He fits right in. He looks very realistic and, or realistic as Yoda does anyway. And, you know, it's, and his performance is really good. Despite the advances in computerized performers, however, Lucas thinks it's going to be a long, long time and maybe never before actors can be replaced by chips. It's not just a person standing there saying lines.

[00:03:00] You know, they bring a lot of, a lot of the character and a lot of the creativity comes through the actors and their, their contribution. But until you can get these Jack Nicholson type computers, which I think is going to be not in our lifetime, I think that actors are safe. You should have seen the glint in George Lucas's eyes when he observed how quickly computers are evolving. Next year's $200 PlayStation for kids, he said, will be faster than the mainframes of a few years ago.

[00:03:30] And the result will be a new era of movie epics as directors create scenes that would simply be too expensive to film by conventional methods. Of course, in the years since then, George Lucas has been pushing the envelope year after year with his special effects company, Industrial Light and Magic. He mentioned the dinosaurs that he made for Spielberg's Jurassic Park, and there's hardly been a major science fiction film in all this time that ILM hasn't had its hand in some way.

[00:03:55] It may sound corny, but I believe the Star Wars series has a certain sweetness and old-fashioned nobility that satisfies a hunger in these times of mindless action movies and rampant irony and cynical comedies. I think George Lucas feels the same way. You know, we live in very cynical times. You know, they're very mean-spirited, they're very cynical, it's very hip to be, to make fun of people and put them down and kind of, everything is super hip, you know, in terms of, everybody's put down for everything.

[00:04:24] And this is the big criticism of Star Wars in the beginning was it's, you know, it's naive, it's sort of hope-filled, it's very young, it's, you know, it's everything anti-hip. You know, it's kind of wide-eyed and optimistic and what a wonder, you know, it's very Pollyanna-ish in its optimism.

[00:04:52] I think people just need that little bonbon in their life, that little thing that says, you know, it's not a terrible world. No, you know, you aren't that bad. Everything's kind of okay. You know, you can, you know, yeah, there are bad people in the world and you have bad inside you, but you can overcome that. And I think, you know, as silly as it is, that's something that's necessary in a society. And may the Force be with you. We met. We loaded it.

[00:05:22] We edited it. Sometimes we get so deep into conversation that we have separate segments worthy of their own place in the sun. We shuffled mini-episodes.

[00:05:55] In fact, that's a good segue. Isn't it wild how people like to give some of these other filmmakers a good Al-Jell free card? We can let Ridley Scott, you know, wreck his Alien franchise, but we can't let George Lucas wreck his own Star Wars franchise, even though he created it. He had to lead it to the professionals at Disney. Yes. They have to polish the turd. That last Alien film that came out, did you guys care for it? I don't recommend it. I know a lot of people surprisingly did, and I was very surprised.

[00:06:25] I thought it was all right myself. All right. I guess I just felt like I was watching a Friday the 13th movie instead of an Alien film. The characters were just very paper-spin, so I just couldn't get attached to any of them. Well, they took a more... Of course, anyone who knows the old Alien films knows the tropes that come along with the aliens and the creatures and stuff.

[00:06:53] And I actually kind of... These guys would talk about these things and actually think these things through about the acid for blood and how to deal with certain things. And I was okay with it. Oh, good. There's a lot of people who like the new Terminator anime show, and the same kind of deal. Despite having a lot of cool actors attached to it, including Timothy Olyphant as one of the leaders, I just couldn't get into it.

[00:07:19] It just felt like someone who watched a lot of Ghost in the Shell and Akira, but couldn't make anything interesting for any kind of audience. Well, I... You know, I kind of got tired of anime at some point, especially the... I have too. Like, well, if you take, for example, like the Iron Man cartoon that came out years ago that was about the Extremis armor. Hmm. Do you know anything about that? That sounds familiar.

[00:07:48] Well, it was anime style. I think it even had the Punisher and Black Widow in it, maybe. Oh, it was 2010. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I saw part of the Blade and X-Men one, and I think they used to air it on G4. But I... Yeah, I couldn't get into it. I didn't care for it very much. It was the same, too, because I like the voices. Sorry, go ahead. Tom, go back to Timothy Olyphant for a second. Is he becoming this generation's Michael Caine? Hmm. I still think it goes to Danny Trejo.

[00:08:20] But Olyphant will be in every Western, that's for sure. I will appear in everything, and it will be good. It will be good to buy me a mansion. I'm surprised I wasn't a Jedi. I will appear in a Jedi. Well, he was in a Star Wars thing, wasn't he? Yeah, Olyphant was the sheriff of that one tattooing planet. Not planet.

[00:08:49] A society. Yeah, I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but I'd heard about that. Well, and basically... I think some people were disappointed because he's still being Raylan Gibbons or his marshal from Deadwood. I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what they asked him to do. So he's giving it what it deserves in Star Wars form. But yeah, he was the tattooing lawman Cobb Vanth.

[00:09:19] So George Lucas is just interesting because, again, he's his own worst enemy. You know, he basically has... You know, Star Wars makes his career, and then it ruins his life. You know, his ex-wife, Marsha Lucas, is also pretty hard on him, but saves the initial movie. And then because Star Wars, you know, he has to keep making money, it also takes him away from his family time. So it's just like...

[00:09:45] And it is just so funny when you see how Brian Napalm, his best friend, part of that crowd, growing up when they were in film school, was his biggest critic. He's like, it doesn't make any sense. So Lucas is like, okay, then give me a giant, you know, bunch of opening text, you know, to make this make better sense for you. And Spielberg is like, oh, it's fun. But I'm not going to do it. And I just find it also funny how him and Coppola have had the most bizarre relationship this whole time.

[00:10:14] Like, Coppola has him as his PA on movies like The Rain People and has him design some of the newspaper montages in The Godfather. But then, you know, Coppola's career falls through. And then, you know, Lucas is like, you can direct movies for me. You know, Coppola doesn't like how he has a hold on his creativity there. So it's just... They just can't win. They'll always be at each other's movie premieres. But they're always like, ah, George. Oh, Francis. Always trying to make money.

[00:10:45] Well, you mentioned before, George Lucas only ever directed that first Star Wars movie, right? Well, he directed the first one. Then he has his mentor, Irvin Kirshner, direct it. And it's so funny. It's like he... It's so behind schedule making that chaotic sequel because he's so focused on the merchandise. He goes into businessman territory. And then, you know, on part three, Return of the Jedi, you know, it's well liked now.

[00:11:13] But at the time, everyone was pretty mixed on it. Just feeling like it wasn't the best way to wrap up after Empire. And Ewoks being, again, kind of a toy line. But it is funny how it's got a lot of fun action and stunts. But when you see how he brings his art director friend at the time, Roger Christian, who later goes on to do a bunch of acclaimed arthouse movies. Tarantino's favorite movie, The Cinder. And then the similar Star Wars inspired dud battlefield earth.

[00:11:40] But he keeps doing second unit direction for Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace. But yeah, basically Lucas ghost directs Jedi. And then he wanted Ron Howard to do the... Or Spielberg to do the prequels. And they both turned him down. And then it's so funny. Spielberg still does some second unit direction of the opening of Revenge of the Sith, which many compare to his opening of Saving Private Ryan. And then Ron Howard does the solo movie.

[00:12:07] And so it's just like a lot of people just, however they're approached, it's like they either are in the worst possible time to be asked to do this or what have you. It's great to be able to sit by myself and just be able to do this. It's like a real luxury, actually. And, you know, I don't feel a lot of pressure. It's kind of fun. I'm getting to do a lot of research, which I love to do.

[00:12:34] And I'm getting a chance to think. I get to do a lot of things now that I couldn't do before. Create things that weren't possible to create before. I was always... And I will be on this, but I've always been sort of at the limit of what is possible in terms of storytelling. Things have advanced so far in the last 20 years in terms of your ability to portray things on the screen that were just literally impossible before.

[00:12:59] I did enjoy the Industrial Light and Magic behind the magic doc that was on Disney. But how convenient how basically they stop at about 2,000 and stop covering what stuff they've done since. And I'm like, yeah, I think they know that they haven't given their best visual effects lately, but they're still cooking. And it's just... There's not... He's had so many hits and so many misses. It's like, you got all these beloved movies.

[00:13:28] You know, he starts off with THX 1138 after being a Stonian documentary film. And in his George Lucas, A Life book, he outlines how he was not only the director and writer of that, but also the assistant director and line producer. Jack of all trades. Jack of all trades. And much like Robert Rodriguez later does, and how convenient how he also ends up on the Star Wars franchise.

[00:13:53] You know, they both quit the guild because they just refuse to have opening credits and do other stuff that the GGA requires. And yeah, THX 1138 is a wonderful movie. It's even totally referenced in the prison scenes on the on-door Star Wars show. But again, it didn't make any money at the time. And Warner Brothers pulled out the funding. And that's what made Coppola's America's Zotro studio go bankrupt.

[00:14:22] But then American Graffiti, same thing. I just can't imagine. But at the time, the Universal didn't think it was a very good movie. It was a big hit and audiences and critics liked it. But it didn't get a wider release until Star Wars got big. And then they felt pressured to like, I guess we better re-release it. George Lucas is a name now. Yeah, he's a name now. And it is funny reading about how, you know, no one wanted to do Indiana Jones at the time.

[00:14:51] Paramount basically was like, this sounds like bullshit. And, you know, Lucas advertises it. And Spielberg's the peacekeeper as both the director and one of the producers. And the only thing Lucas does besides, you know, hiring writers and coming up with a story is also doing some pickup shots, directions on the first two movies.

[00:15:14] And it's just so funny, though, how of all the people he's friends with, it's like they get him. And yet at the same time, it's like no one knows how to explain to him. You suck at directing actors. Or directing actors. And he doesn't have an answer for it. He always is like, I just want actors to be more intense. They should know how to act. It's like, well, the problem is that they're working all with visual effects. So, you know, they just need a reference point.

[00:15:44] That's all you got to give them instead of getting annoyed that they're asking you a million questions. It is funny, though, how of all the other careers he's made, like Gary Kurtz was the producer on the first two Star Wars. Then he goes on to have a career on TV and other movies like Return to Oz. Did you like Return to Oz? Oh, man. I don't know if I would now, but I remember growing up watching it.

[00:16:15] Trying to remember. That's not. When did that come out? That was like in the 80s. Oh, yeah. That's not the one I'm thinking of. I might not have seen that. Yeah. I just find it mainly interesting how just.

[00:16:35] Lucas just always had a bizarre reason for coming up with anything, you know, after Indiana Jones is the mega hit and having to deal with all the melodrama at Paramount. And it's so funny how he's like, you know what? I'm going to send a London crew to make a TV show version. And we're going to teach people history that way with my fictional character. And that's where he meets producer Rick McCallum. And he goes on to help him fund the Star Wars prequels. And rest in peace.

[00:17:04] He retired in 2012. But he's worked on other stuff like the singing detective and dream child. But he was a German American producer who, again, worked in Britain. And again, I don't think Star Wars works without John Williams. That's kind of just the main thing. Like, I think the reason I just always was OK with Lucas, aside from growing up with other stuff, he like to me, I was like, yeah, Howard the Duck. That doesn't exist. That would have been bad no matter who did it. But well, with that script.

[00:17:35] Yes. Well, with that script, for sure. But and Willow, I'm just like, yeah, that's Lucas's Lord of the Rings. But much like many of those 80s fantasy films, they weren't going to make any money back then because people just didn't comprehend that kind of storytelling unless you read that. I was just thinking of the Family Guy trilogy and one of the scenes where the guys like they actually introduce. Was it Williams?

[00:18:03] Yes, they do a lot of John Williams music. They do the Austin Powers thing where they introduce the guy behind the music. And then and then later on, they're like doing something. Oh, now now we've got to use Danny Elfman. Yes. Star Wars was definitely the first one where the music kind of told the story for me. And it just felt like a more mature Disney movie growing up.

[00:18:29] But people kept coming back to it because it was epic, even though, again, you know, you get some bonkers dialogue and questionable acting. It's like it was definitely just one of the first epic movies I saw. And I think without Star Wars, I don't think I would have been into fantasy spectacles or. Was Star Wars really the first one for you? It wasn't the first movie I saw, but it was definitely the first epic movie I saw. Epic movie. It was just.

[00:18:54] And so I think that's why I was like, now I got to seek out all the historical dramas and war epics, other space operas that are even more mature. I mean, Star Trek is definitely what made me a sci fi guy. And X-Files, I credit a lot for making me a horror and dark mystery kind of guy. But how about you guys? Where did it land for you? Well, I mean, it was definitely one of the most epic movies for me in 77.

[00:19:23] I was 10 years old and it was one of the first movies I saw multiple times, you know, in the theater while it was still playing. Same. My uncle and his sisters, my aunt and mother went and they it was just so funny. It's like this. They were always joking on the way home. It's like my grandmother, you know, goes to pick them up and she's like, where have you guys been? Oh, there was nothing to do. So we saw it again.

[00:19:54] And I think that is it. I think seeing how it was referenced, you know, just anywhere, you know, just anytime I saw a robot movie or a heavily armored, you know, bunch of villains, you know, even video games. We'd kind of have an epic feel or take a music cue or similar art direction. I mean, it was just as inescapable as any other artist or music tune that people pick on that they just love. They're going to put it into their work.

[00:20:23] And so it sucked, though, that when I went to film school, I saw so many people who would belittle us and say, don't copy Star Wars or Tarantino. We don't consider that great. I'm like, well, to each their own. I can shoot a bazillion plot holes in both Tarantino and Star Wars' work, but that doesn't mean I hate them. Yeah. But, you know, Tarantino, like he had a certain love for a certain type of film. So, yeah, it shows in his work. He uses that in his work. I know. And people just kept acting. Oh, derivative.

[00:20:52] I'm like, well, I thought the whole point of being a professor was to teach us and let us interpret it how we will instead of I'm going to give you a D or C because you're doing something I don't care for. It's like that's called gatekeeping, guys. Just letting you know. How about you, Tom? Where did you come into the epic movie kind of spectacle before it became a pretty laughable form of art? I was early into the Star Wars thing.

[00:21:22] And the more I look back at the different choices I made for entertainment going forward, it all kind of started with that epic experience. I was also big into superheroes. So you had the larger than my heroes in Star Wars. And then it led on to other movies like Flash Gordon. Right.

[00:21:49] Which to me is still one of my favorites. I don't care. That's a lot of fun. I don't disagree, but there's a definite difference in style between Flash Gordon and Star Wars. Yes, there is. And that's okay. Yeah, that's not only okay, but that's what makes it distinct and also makes it all the more fun. I mean, that's how I was with John Carter when that came out.

[00:22:15] I was just like, you know, had you gotten a better lead and had it come out earlier, it would have made a bunch of money and been better received. But I'd love it if somebody other than Disney was handling it. That's his debt. They never wanted it, but they still had to release it. It was just a cluster. And it's just so funny how that's what I found so funny is like people who weren't raised on Flash Gordon or Akira Kurosawa samurai epics.

[00:22:42] You know, they watch, you know, George Lucas's material and then they go back to his influences because much like Tarantino, like they want to see what he's inspired by. And I just found it so funny how, you know, people thought, oh, you can never adapt something like Lord of the Rings. It's not inobtainable. You can never make something like Dune. And then they see Star Wars. So then it becomes a reality. You're like, oh. Oh, and while still downplaying the fact that it was kind of made outside of the studio.

[00:23:10] And it is funny. I'm sure the lad and Fox Company are still kicking themselves sideways that they didn't, you know, read the fine print in the paperwork and realize, you know, Lucas owns this whole thing. We're just distributing it. You know? Oh, I just. Oh, crap. I had a thought and I forgot. He owns all the merchandise. Otherwise, you know, we don't own a cent. We just distribute, you know? And I guess I will.

[00:23:37] The first time I had respect for Lucas was when I saw that he both he and Coppola brought, you know, they considered Coppola, Akira Kurosawa, their unofficial mentor. And so then they were like, yeah, let's let's distribute his movie Cage Musha here in America and give him some funding since he's running behind. It's going to be one of his last epics. And I think this is it. I, you know, don't get me wrong.

[00:24:04] I like Roger Corman, but he was just getting everyone's feet wet, you know, just so they had something on the real, you know, they didn't make much money while Lucas would try and help him out. But at the same time, like. However, he was just like getting criticism. It either wasn't the most constructive or he just didn't have a thick skin. And so I just always find it funny is like he was supportive, but he was also.

[00:24:30] Unintentionally deprecating to himself, you know, it's just like. He's a complex individual is like I can't defend every single choice he's made. And at the same time, I don't know what I would do differently other than, you know, get better actors and rework some dialogue in his movies. You know, I don't. Has he tried to do anything since he sold off his Star Wars franchise? He attempted an animated movie called Strange Magic that wasn't a hit. And post Star Wars, he. That's the other thing, too.

[00:25:00] I think the other problem is he has had great intentions. But he's all but he's still just. I don't know if he's just always been the whole I don't care anymore. I'll just I'm just going to do whatever and I'm hiring you to do what I need. But I mean, he did a movie called Red Tails, which was a very big disservice to the airmen. I saw that. Yeah. And I I was just like, why do they even bother?

[00:25:27] I mean, they already did HBO already did a great movie of it, some of which had the same cast members. And it just wasn't a good story. It wasn't well marketed. And some of the people were kind of miscast. And there there was even some whitewashing. If you look a little closely, it's like. And then, yeah, Strange Magic is an animated movie. And at that point, yeah, he just didn't care after he sold it to Disney. I know he regrets it. And at the same time, he just doesn't care.

[00:25:56] But I know he showed up and they allowed him to John Favreau allowed him to direct a scene on like season two of the Mandalorian. But see, that's just it, too. Like, it seems like Dave Filoni, you know, who was hired by him, was always not only just loyal, but just loved the Star Wars world. So he was going to go. He's kind of just the reason everyone's just shutting up now. They're just like, yeah, he's he likes everything. They expand the universe.

[00:26:24] And he's also just a reasonable writer. And Favreau's just a fantasy sci-fi guy. So, of course, he's going to do the Mandalorian movie. I just found it funny how. So, again, just he he he just never had any time to just kind of get out of the house. He's just so busy. If he's not running his company or directing, he's producing something.

[00:26:48] So, you know, he just couldn't direct anything after 05 because at that point he just his diabetes was really bad and he just was a stress cannon. He's just going around breaking a sweat. And I get it when you are stressing so much, you just can't concentrate at all. You know, you just you got to hang it up. You got to leave it to just doing a few phone calls a day.

[00:27:15] You know, and so I do think he's a better producer, but I do also understand why when you look at his earlier work, there is a lot of imagination as a by being in the director seat. So, I mean, I am definitely inspired by him, especially when I understand that he he knew about getting coverage. So I think that's just it. He's a good technical wizard.

[00:27:42] He just wasn't great with working with actors and, you know, any time much like anyone in that day. The minute he a suit from whatever studio he's working with comes and tells him he can't do it. He takes that not only as a challenge, but instantly says the worst possible thing you can say to him gets more melodrama to deal with.

[00:28:03] It's so funny, though, because it reminds me of how talk show hosts like Conan O'Brien have said how whenever they had a studio exec from their respective network tell them, can you guys stop doing that? That's weird. They would always just essentially do a Jedi mind trick and convince them that their weird idea was their idea. So that's how they would get away with it. And I just always wonder, well, Mr. Lucas, why don't you just use some Jedi mind tricks? If you don't like what they're saying, say it a different way.

[00:28:33] Sometimes that's all it is. Or maybe just say yes, but then don't do it. That'll stall them. I mean, half the time. I mean, it is really amazing how Star Wars in 70s dollars was made for only 11 million, which is low budget. Nowadays, it'd be like 40 million if we convert that with inflation. I don't know. Were you sure it'd be that or would be higher? I think it might be a little higher.

[00:29:01] Maybe it might be 400 million, but it's funny how back then it was pretty low budget. He had to just keep asking for five extra million because he would get there. And it is so funny, though. I think. He if there's anything he matured on was definitely trusting his cinematographers. It is so funny, though, how he works with a guy who has shot 50s war movies like the damn busters, which also is an unofficial inspiration for.

[00:29:31] You know, guns and arrow and stuff like that is definitely an inspiration for the Death Star raid. But it's just so funny how the cinematographer half the time was telling him how he was going to light everything. And. Lucas would be like, I don't want it that way. And the studio had to override him, say, please trust your DP. He knows what he's doing. And so you were talking about film school and being, you know, your teachers want you not to be derivative and stuff. Yeah, this was in the 2010s.

[00:30:00] Well, think about I mean, you know, George Lucas was, you know, doing something that was derivative of the serials he watched when he was a kid. Yeah. He put his own spin on it. I mean, everything is copied some way. It's just how will you do it? I think that's just it. I think they just were trying to put us in a corner and it's like, you know, I'd be up for some if someone wanted to do a practical effects thing. It's just I don't know. They were just very temperamental professors.

[00:30:26] And I think we would have stopped asking questions had they given us an actual reason instead of just shut us down. But I met some good guys there who were one of them was a Dutch professor who we all really liked. And he could actually explain why he didn't care for big effects, epics and everything and just wanted just cool dialogue driven suspense stuff. And he got voted out by the teachers organization.

[00:30:56] And we all gave him a light meter, which is anytime you see behind the scenes photos, you'll probably see a director or cinematographer looking through like some mini lens. That's a light meter just to see how much light they need to add or subtract from their focus on their camera. So we gave that to him as a going away gift. Did any of you have some fun film school encounters that almost kind of made you think of other famous filmmakers behind the scenes stories?

[00:31:26] I'm not educated. Yeah, I took a film study class class in my during my undergrad because I wanted to get that media perspective. And we we watched a lot of movies. We had a lot of discussions. That was where I got my first introduction to Citizen Kane. Oh, nice. And also there were also a lot of other ones. I want to say we also watched High Noon.

[00:31:56] Nice. Was there a wide range of differences with those movies that you were looking at? Yeah, there was. We were looking at different aspects of the film industry and the genre and the. And each individual genre. It was. But mostly it was just you're going to watch these. We're going to do an analysis of it. I just watch for these things. And it is really. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:26] And. Basically, if you want to go back even further, you've got the notion that they're basically, I think, like maybe three to five actual stories. Everything else is comes from those stories. And with Star Wars in particular, and even with with fan films, you're you're hitting on.

[00:32:48] At least one or two of them at a time, you have the hero's journey, you get the whole thing with the whole thing with the rising tension, the antagonist, the conflict, the sort of the downturn when you when something bad happens to the hero and you there's more circles. And then you see the triumphant ending and. But. And there's a music chorus that complements the success of the hero.

[00:33:17] I think that's what it really introduced me to the most. Yeah, there are a lot of elements in the Star Wars franchise itself. The music being such a big part of it. People look at the special effects and they're blown away by them. And for the time, they were they were groundbreaking and still are. Holograms, that whole concept of briefing room was never the same to me again. I always got a Star Wars. Yeah. But but to your point, the music helped.

[00:33:48] Helped set the background as much as the background did. Yes. You see the when the when R2 and 3PO land on Tatooine, there's that you hear that little twinkling, for lack of a better term. Then you run into the same people. Then you. Then you have the same people doing and you bring attention there and you see the bar scene. But overall.

[00:34:15] Overall, the music is as much of a character and plays as much of a role in the success of the movies as. As anyone. It definitely introduced me to how they used to have themes repeat and indie films nowadays were even the worst, worse at this, where they would basically have one song that repeats at the beginning and end. And the rest was like music they got from the library, although that worked in other cases like with Dawn of the Dead.

[00:34:44] But I just always found it interesting with Star Wars is like, you know, exact not only what scene the thing is, but it had every character has their own theme. Every planet has their own theme and every setting has their own mood. So there's the sad song as well as the uplifting song. It never felt to me like, OK, you're just telling me what I already know. It was like, yeah, no, this is exactly the way I need to be feeling now.

[00:35:15] Good timing. Good timing. Oh, well, I mean, like an updated version. I mean, like if you look at the Guardians of Galaxy films, is there any that you're unhappy with with those? Music plays a big part in those. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's kind of the age we've now gotten to the age where now. And I don't belittle this at all. Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of anything can be poorly used. And there's plenty of movies where they have popular songs playing that don't have anything to do with the scene.

[00:35:45] But I do kind of like how now a lot of comedies and epics that are out now not only are making all these different songs popular that are that they should have known by now. But for those who don't know, they're being introduced to music from earlier eras. It's interesting how now certain songs are associated with certain movies now because they're they're making it be part of a characters. Sometimes they'll even write it in is like this character is obsessed with this song. And here's why.

[00:36:14] Here's part of a skit that explains it. I thought it was brilliant where they have him listening to a tape that tapes that his mother gave him in Guardians of the Galaxy. And they're all that's all he can cling on to is. Yeah, it becomes a part of the character for the show or for the movie. Yeah. To me, that that. Is sort of a counterpoint to what what we were talking about with Star Wars, that music. It it wasn't just limited to that to one character.

[00:36:45] It it was a big part that with with the Guardians of the Galaxy series. I see this more of you're using pop music as a. As a gateway towards something, it's like this is the soundtrack of this one particular scene or this is the soundtrack that's going to. It's really. It doesn't really drive anything necessarily. It outside of a particular scene. Gotcha.

[00:37:13] Well, emotionality could be a part with those with the music they played. They were definitely trying to tug on certain heartstrings or something in certain scenes, especially with that second Guardians of the Galaxy film. Yes. And with Londu as his father. Mm hmm. Or Yondu as his father. Yeah, I think. I think. Yeah. And. I mean, to John Williams's credit, though, I mean, at least, you know, he showed not only could he have.

[00:37:39] I think that's why his I like his themes for Jurassic Park and Superman movies so much is just because I know instantly, you know, that's the park's theme. And for Superman, like that's the character's theme. That's the theme that not only makes me go, I want to see him, you know, fly into the sky, but it's ass kicking time. You know, it's triumphant time. And Star Wars just had, like you guys said, multiple characters.

[00:38:07] So but it is interesting how I mean, Deadpool was doing something like that recently. But now we're seeing other funny comedies and sci fi epics kind of do that. And it's like, wow, I had no idea you can use that song to say that thing with that theme. But could try using it in interesting ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:32] I will tell you, to do this day, one of my favorite scenes in the movie that was connected to a song that had nothing to do with it was from The Losers. Chris Evans trying to escape being captured by security to the tunes of Don't Stop Believin' by Journey. Yeah.

[00:39:23] It's kind of different now. Now I see, I think they're just gone back to the well, which is now we got to rely on stars to attract people, even though people. I mean, Starship Troopers did a similar marketing like Star Wars, where you just saw people with spaceships and guns and you didn't know any of their names necessarily. But now it's just like we're kind of back to that. We have all these, unless you got a trailer that kind of makes everyone go, I want to see that at the Super Bowl.

[00:39:51] I don't see as much many people taking a chance on something that, you know, with unknowns anymore. And it's kind of hard to market, I guess. I don't know. Sci-fi epics, I guess I'm just hesitant to go out and see as much now because I guess the Star Wars formula has been done and been copied so many times. It's like, well, what would you do differently about it?

[00:40:16] You know, I think Guardians was a hit because it was kind of a little more like Fifth Element, which was by the guy, this French comic writer who Lucas allegedly stole from. I think, well, at least with the first two Guardian films, there was more of an emotional backbone to it than you'd see in like the first element. That's true, too. For a blockbuster movie that determines whether it's a hit or not.

[00:40:43] And I just I guess writing it is definitely the hardest because you don't know how many effects shots are going to be made, how you're going to film it, how you're going to get people who are comfortable acting in that kind of genre movie. It's called Eric Roberts. Yes. What, don't we get a talking cat? Yeah, my God. Quick impression. Eric Roberts at home. Answering the phone. Hello, I'll take it.

[00:41:13] Yes, I'll take it. I'm Eric Roberts. So kudos to you, Lucas, for changing marketing. And then because I really did get to that point where people will show up just because Star Wars is in the title. It was oversaturated, but at the same time, like it was just an interesting, unusual kind of way to make epics outside of a studio. And I just still find it funny how he was the one to do it. And at the same time, he didn't want to do it.

[00:41:41] And yet he had to, because anytime he wanted to go back and do a project he'd been wanting to do, it just wouldn't make any money. So it's it's he definitely has a career similar to all the music artists we we've known and liked and then felt like they fell off off a bridge at some point. He got locked into a corner. We'll return after these messages. Hey, it's Brent Pope, the host of breakfast with Brent Pope.

[00:42:11] You've seen me on some of your favorite TV shows saying things like, give it up, Jimmy. You got to sink this put to win on breakfast with Brent Pope. I sit down with guests for the entertainment world and we do it all over breakfast. Or should I say breakfast? Every week on breakfast, you get inside Hollywood info and tips. Great breakfast wrecks and booty debates. Most of all, you get the most delightful 30 minutes of your week. So dig in. It's breakfast time. Listen at breakfast dot com, Apple podcasts or wherever fine podcasts are found.

[00:42:37] Do you ever find yourself thinking about who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman? Hi, I'm James Gavsey and on the Who Would Win show, me and my co-host Ray ignore anything important happening in the outside world and debate fictional battles between characters from comics, movies and video games. We got a new show every week and almost always am I the winner. Not true, Ray. In the past, we've discussed such matches as Captain America versus Darth Vader, Solid Snake versus the Iron Giant,

[00:43:04] classic matchups like Robocop versus Terminator and even the Muppets versus Sesame Street. That one was crazy. So if you're a fan of geek culture and love a spirited debate, check out the Who Would Win show wherever you get your podcasts or check us out at who would win show dot com. Follow us on the web on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.

[00:43:33] The podcast is available on Podbean, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Anchor, Apple and anywhere else podcasts are available. Feel free to review our show and leave comments on any of those sites. Thanks a million for listening. It's a jacked up review show.