Star Trekking Week: Showcase on Classic Star Trek Writers DC Fontana, Harlan Ellison & Gene L. Coon (with superfan Jim Ho!)

[00:00:06] It's a Jacked Up Review Show Alrighty, welcoming on Jim Ho. I'm your host, Sully, and we're talking about some free key Star Trek writers who brought a lot to the show. What are they want to admit it or not?

[00:00:56] Oh, they're quite worth the minute. Other people don't recognize them that they should get their place in the sun. They're more with a glory also. Right? It's just up to the fans and even just people of the genre and of just good

[00:01:15] writing in general who just got to check it out. Absolutely. You see all that interplay back in TLS with between Kirk and Spock and Bones. I mean, there's some writes that make that happen. I mean, they deliver the lines but

[00:01:34] someone had to write those lines. And those are the best lines ever. If you remember, they started years and years after the fact. They still remember the scene about Tony Webb, how Bones and Spock really full-paced lying to Kirk about his final order. It's so classic.

[00:02:01] We often think of just Gene Roddenberry and he's like, no, don't give me wrong. He deserves his own credit alone for overseeing the whole thing but people forget that he, by season free, he was just giving notes. He was getting annoyed by having to deal with network exacts.

[00:02:17] And we'll mention him a little more briefly but yeah, I figured we, so we're going to talk about DC Fontana, Harlan Ellison and Gene O'Koon. Sounds good. I figure Fontana is just a cool one to get

[00:02:34] into because, you know, back when, you know, groundbreaking. Yeah. There weren't that many female writers back then and they had to get through, you know, the stereotypes and sexism that oh, this should just be housewise or whatever and it's like they, she cut through all those,

[00:02:50] that bigotry back then and, you know, they titled her as DC because they were afraid, you know, it stands for Dorothy Catherine and they were just afraid. And Roddenberry, you know, much like how he worked with getting the, you know, Kirk and your hurrah, you know,

[00:03:05] biracial kiss on, you know, he was the right people know how to play their cards and his poker face was okay, just let's call you DC so no one will, you know, we can get through the basically the

[00:03:17] internet troll equivalents back then, you know, we can get through and make this groundbreaking stuff and let you do your thing and make a living doing this. So DC, you know, had made

[00:03:28] a living doing, you know, writing for streets of San Francisco and ghost story and later, you know, but yeah, she wrote various scripts throughout the run of the original Star Trek and later contributed to earlier next gen as well as the animated series and.

[00:03:47] With that classic, yes, with that classic, yes, yes, the classic for her. Yesterday are a great one and then a key, you know, self titled episode Dax of Deep Space Nine. She also wrote free season one episodes of Babylon five as well as the 90s virtual reality

[00:04:06] cartoon reboot as well as Ron Berry's inspired Earth Final Conflict as well as the award winning web series Star Trek Phase two. And she's also contributed to other stuff like the Waltons, Logan's Run show, Dallas and Rogers. So and the eighties for the worlds.

[00:04:26] Yeah, I, in fact, it was kind of funny. I just posted on Facebook and some of the groups how there was a egg where bread spiner was talking to the half stutter. In the background, you have DC Fontana. You have David Gerard in the background as

[00:04:49] background players chatting as quite guests. And there's just a cool not a cool thing to see that they have the background over there just hanging out children is having a couple, couple of a couple liquids and just chatting. Right. Just all the all these guys,

[00:05:07] even though they might not always be on screen, you know, he keeps in touch with them. There's friends. I'm so glad that they were able to transcend the years, even though you're going for one

[00:05:20] series to another, you know, jumping out. There's a lag of say 15 years between TOS and next gen and DS9 and over that video to still keep them together and be able to

[00:05:34] interplay with them and just give a little nod to them in certain ways, even though it's been a long time. I remember those that did not with, oh gosh, remember the episode with maybe you could

[00:05:48] give a name episode with Cisco is going to transport back in time. He's at this Pulp fiction magazine. Yeah. Total throwback episode. Yeah. Yeah. And they have a throwback that warred the characters on there was, you know, with DC Fontana where she said to put her

[00:06:16] name as a guy because they wouldn't believe that a girl could write science fiction. So she had to write right up as a guy. They know the plume to get a story on the air so speak in print.

[00:06:30] So that's nice nod to the Dorothy on that where they had to use that similar to what they did on TV. That was a cool thing to see. Yeah, it's very cool. You know, she is unfortunate left us, but

[00:06:44] it's been pretty cool to see that she, you know, got to be on some of the various conventions making ofs and feature ads. And yes, and like you say they do in inside jokes for

[00:06:57] she passed away in 2019 at age 76. Wow. And she is one the Morgan Cox Award, you know, two from the Writers Guild and and twice named in the American Screenwriters Association's Hall of Fame and as well as inducted into the Museum of Pop Culture, sci-fi and fantasy Hall of

[00:07:22] Fame. So that's pretty well deserved. Yeah. And she had previously worked in a little known fact on Ron Berry show the Lieutenant, which was about a military boot camp with her, which had

[00:07:34] plenty of plenty of of Star Trek actors on there. And dad and the movie that in the movie Genesis to yeah. And yeah, Ron Berry like any good producer, he would keep using some of the

[00:07:49] same good actors because he knew he could rely upon them to interpret his material and be on time. Yeah. She is kind of underrated in a way because he kind of wish, you know, often when I see,

[00:08:01] you know, writers that are mentioned, I often only see ones that are from like later. Like, well, we'll get to Coon, but I often see him like the first one mentioned and often the rest

[00:08:13] of the time you see Ron Berry and don't get me wrong. All of them did great stuff, especially later on. But yeah, I'll often only just see like Ira Steven Barr, you know, Renee Acavera and Ronald D. Moore. I'm like, okay, those guys are amazing. But

[00:08:26] don't forget some of the other OGs. Don't forget some of the other ones. Right. They're the ones who laid off the groundwork for everyone else to go past. They were the pro blazers. They had to do this on actual typewriters, you know.

[00:08:39] Right. Oh yeah. Back in the home, I had an old Olivia. So that was my old typewriter back in the day. There you go. Man. So, yeah, no, she's a total boss and she's just so insightful whenever

[00:08:55] you hear her speak about writing and and she put the passion for it. She if anything, I would even argue, I know a lot of people like to complain about, you know,

[00:09:05] next year's first two seasons, you know, how they might be a little dated and the show didn't have its voice yet. But I do feel like if anything, a lot of her scripts, you know,

[00:09:15] had a lot of plots that, you know, would have definitely have been used back in the day on the original show and she was just giving them that same blueprint to identify with, you know, the newcomers. Yes. I totally agree with that. You know, there was enough.

[00:09:29] I don't say there's enough resistance to new to the new generation TNG because all we have before was COS and then they have this new group of people come in to quote,

[00:09:42] you serve a whole hour. I love COS. A lot of people just have to ask you like, you know, nothing could beat that. Well, they could. It could. It could be better. But she's at least got the right insight and it's up to the new directors and producers

[00:09:58] and other people who they've hired to. Right. Right. Get moving on. So it's a team effort, you know, it's a tapestry one can't do without the other. So so without without the writers and without the people doing the various things behind the scenes,

[00:10:17] it's just not going to flow. Well, you can have something that's all lost or you're gonna have a Logan's run back in the day. I don't know. You remember Logan's run? Yeah, good show and Buck

[00:10:28] Rogers. I am a huge fan of. And so it's just cool that she was a recurring producer and got to write one key episode on that where he sees the Amazon women. Yes. Oh, that was a hardy one.

[00:10:43] Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing, you know, even when these shows get a little dated or don't seem as progressive when they're made by otherwise progressive people, they're still just

[00:10:53] a fun retro back in time kind of thing. And I'm glad she got to be part of especially early B5 back when it was, you know, finding its voice and. Yes. Jay Michaels was insky, you know, as we

[00:11:06] know, you know, he took the Star Trek template and then he made his own, you know, what would he intend to be a mysterious five season run. And, you know, much like people were taken from

[00:11:18] X Files, there are a lot of other just hardcore TV, you know, writers who will often admit is like we planned a five year run and then we took from B5. So and, you know, this was before

[00:11:29] Strasinski resorted to then, you know, writing the whole thing because it was somebody had some of that inside help. And I think she was just one of two writers who contributed that first year.

[00:11:43] Yeah. Yeah, like I said, yeah. Yeah, like I said, DC just doesn't get the credit that she said she should get. That's really important. She should be like every top 20 less like but iconic sci-fi TV

[00:11:56] writers, I hope she can be on there somewhere. She transcended not just one genre, not just Star Trek. She went, you know, different areas like you said, you know, she was on Babylon 5 and a

[00:12:14] few other ones. So we know she was to change the plot and the elements to fit that particular Yeah, because people forget, you know, it was still produced just like a typical kind of Western or

[00:12:28] adventure show and it just had people in sci-fi suits and on a spaceship. But yeah. So this brings us to Harlan Nelson. You might know him best as the writer of A Boy and His Dog, which was later

[00:12:42] adapted into a pretty cool 1975 movie. Yeah, it was. Yep, the short story I have no mouth and I must scream, which is a 1967 short story about a computer that tortures the last five humans on

[00:12:54] earth. And repent Harlequin said The Tick Tock Man, which is a story about a futuristic society in which time is regimented by a fearsome figure called The Tick Tock Man. And he's known for cynicism, his views on atheism, elitism, violence, and even Scientology. And he's

[00:13:13] been interviewed by Merv Griffin and Tom Snyder, let alone how his outer limits short story was the very story that he accused the creators of the Terminator of plagiarizing. I love that story

[00:13:26] with him with the demon with the glass hand. That's a classic. Oh my goodness. I have no mouth and must scream. Yeah, pretty creepy. And of course, the city on the edge of forever

[00:13:42] was the very script that involved some time travel was an iconic original series Star Trek episode. And fans have learned to put, you know, their differences aside, you know, Ellison disowned it because Ron Berry rewrote it like he did every script. And you look at the changes, they're

[00:13:59] pretty minor. He just has like problems with like how they address like the time travelers and and other stuff like that. I think Hulkin took much more was much more passionate about his work

[00:14:14] and refused to let anyone touch it or be touched like one syllable of his work. Look, he's a crazy on your heart. It's perfect the way it is. You don't need to rewrite

[00:14:25] or might rewrite. That's what he was. He just he was chance. I guess the person who said best was the guy from Robert Block. It says about about about Holland that the only living organism I know who's natural habitat is hot water.

[00:14:45] I mean, that that that typifies I do recall that authors said some are like that. Yeah. And like you say, I mean, he is cynical. But I mean, that's kind of what makes him great. He's just

[00:14:59] he has all this philosophy and all this off kilter stuff that definitely evokes kind of Robert all the Heinelands of the world, all these other guys and plenty of these other satirists and what have you. And it's just so funny how

[00:15:17] you know that he's just worked on all these other things he later went on to be fought beyond Babylon 5 as a creative consultant. And in him, Krasinski got along just fine, even pretty much for those who don't know, you know, when you're a consultant often you'll just be

[00:15:35] paid for a phone call, you know, like what is it beyond call? Like, like you say, if you're a doctor or anyone else, you get to pay to sit there and wait for the phone call.

[00:15:45] That's your job. That's a little bit of a five phone call. But you get paid anyway. So that's okay. That's a great gig beyond call. You know, you just hang and chill to get the phone call.

[00:16:00] Well now you get the zoom call now before this is a phone call. I love how his widow said that her husband put his Star Trek lingo behind him, but he would still never watch the so-called classic episode.

[00:16:17] And she said, let's not go that far. I'm like, okay, well, sounds like he was pretty annoyed. But yeah, he had a Jewish background. His father was a dentist and jeweler. His mom worked in a first store and he was bullying school,

[00:16:35] largely for his faith and that experience made him feel like an outsider and fueled his anger. And that's what he put into his various short stories, but even his film reviews. And yeah, no, I always seem brought up and I can't deny his place in the genre. And

[00:16:55] he looked at storytelling apparently as a holy chores. What he said is saying, and he passed away in 2018 at the age of 84. So pretty big life. Yeah, low life. He's a great body of work. A lot

[00:17:08] stories that he left behind for us. So I'm glad about that. He might be close to it, but what can you do? He's brought so much to the material. It's just interesting, his personality. If I know that although, this is looking to some of his

[00:17:27] interviews and his readings interviews, if I know that I swear because I'm bipolar, I got bipolar too. So I can understand where sometimes your filters are off and you say the way it is,

[00:17:41] no matter what and you don't like it. He doesn't care. And I mean, God, that guy's shitty bipolar. I mean, he's not saying about but he certainly has all the manifestation of being bipolar

[00:17:53] spectrum somewhere. So I wouldn't be surprised if I mean, because there are moments, I mean, back before we had the internet and we were embracing any kind of mental health disorder that we had or just on happiness and in dressing it, you know, it's like, it seemed

[00:18:08] like people gave into peer pressure, you know, you'd have parents who want to tell you, hey, you should work here. You'd have other kind of peer pressure and it was uncool to say things that,

[00:18:21] you know, that were true. The norm, like everyone else, it's going to be a cookie cutter. You want cookie cutter? I mean, that's what these actors often got. It was like, wait, what do you want to, you know, because it was considered kind of a freak thing,

[00:18:35] no different than being a prostitute back then. And you're just like, well, I want to perform for the stage and film. That's what I want to do. That's not a nine to five job, like being a,

[00:18:45] you know, a clerk or a secretary or what have you. Sorry. That's not what I want to do. I'm just sorry that the series, the big bang theory didn't come out like 23 years, 40 years ago. I could certainly relate to some deep units of those guys and, you know,

[00:19:08] because I got picked on like everyone else who was a little psyched by D.D. At the same time, it was just a way, felt a lot better back then if I felt like, oh, there's

[00:19:19] some people like me, you know? It was kind of the cult underground kind of thing. And yeah, Star Wars was the cool kid in school and Star Trek was the uncool thing. And this is like, I can like both. I'm going to like both.

[00:19:32] Yeah, I don't just own Star Wars. I enjoy Star Wars. I just patch up a Star Trek and I love all the other genres out there, but just patch up a Star Trek. But I don't just own all the other ones. They all have their plays. They all,

[00:19:46] well, I'm quite good. It's just track is a little deeper and it's got a lot of other welcome elements of other genres. So yeah, it's kind of why we come back to it more.

[00:19:56] Absolutely. And it's got a lot more years of history that you have to interweave and gosh, now they should be able to- Social commentary, yeah. You gotta be so careful making sure you don't quote, make mistakes with people canon like,

[00:20:13] oh, but this happened back in 1967. And you can't do this because that's what they said. You can't break canon. Well, it's so hard to remember everything. You know, all the measles are there to make sure you don't screw up and do something that's

[00:20:28] not going against what we started before. At least make sure the, you know, the character has a consequence that kind of echoes some of that same stuff, that same commentary. And I think that's just it. I mean, pretty much if you're hired by track,

[00:20:42] it's not just that you're a fan. It's also that essentially you are, you know, very used to reading all kinds of philosophy and what have you. Sure. Yeah, you immerse yourself into the, you know, it can wrap your body around the culture

[00:21:00] of Star Trek when you're in the writing mode or you're doing your business when you're on set or whatever. You just gotta just immerse yourself. You'll be a method actor or method writer. You just gotta go right into it and go right into it.

[00:21:17] Yeah, just like actors have their own character backstory. My character behaves this and that way, not trying to be a diva. This is just how we've done it since day one and established it.

[00:21:25] And the same thing with the writers is like, they always have their rules. He's like, okay. And, you know, Ron Berry, he was having kind of that bipolar kind of issue when he was losing his mind before passing away. And this is like, they would always have,

[00:21:40] one minute they would get a legit gene reaction. It was like, okay, no one can die or you got to resolve this peacefully. And then sometimes he would insert all this other stuff that was not part

[00:21:50] of his progressive upbringing because he was losing his mind back then. And, you know, people know the infamous stories about his lawyer, you know, taking over a few things and he wasn't a writer let alone anyone who should be giving a second opinion. He's just, you know,

[00:22:07] genes, you know, guy doing all the book work. It's like, dude, saying your right. Okay. You're not your your lawyer. Do you do you or your a bean counter? Say your lane. Don't look at your lane please. Okay. Right. No disrespect. But seriously, please respect the writers and

[00:22:31] I can't blame Harlan for being like some of the other ones. I know, let's just nod grass and some of those other ones would say and it's like, hey, we're thankful for the experience. And at the same time, you know, those writers rooms were a little toxic and

[00:22:43] we had to just credit ourselves under a different name because we just hated being associated with those changes. Yeah, like I said, they have, they have, they have, they don't say evil, but you know,

[00:22:57] they have to pride, you know, this is your body of work. This is what you do. And you and to have your baby transform to something you don't like. You know, yes, I like to paycheck. I like the

[00:23:12] prestige and doing it. But at the same time, I don't want to be associated with people who know that that's not really my baby. It was it was transformed like a friend sign monsters

[00:23:22] is something that I don't believe in, but but the money's good. So I want to continue to work with them. So I'll keep my mouth shut and just change my name. So what can I say?

[00:23:36] 1000% couldn't agree with you more. And, you know, it leaves so much to just kind of just open up your minds to say just sometimes the work is greater than anyone even realizes. But especially once you give it the, give it the passage of time,

[00:23:54] a lot of times things that happen now in the princess now in 2022, you may seem awful now, but you give it 10 years from now. It might not seem so bad. The same thing for a lot of episodes and a lot of things that happened in Star Trek previously.

[00:24:10] It's sort of when it happened like, it's kind of things it's not really what it's about. And then you wait a while you think, Oh, this is a little bit of a thought. You know, it's not as bad.

[00:24:20] You know, now looking back on it, there was one we looked at originally. So people just got to take a grand assault, relax, take a chill pill, let history dictate what says. The way it is now with internet, everyone can state opinion. It's not the old days where

[00:24:40] everyone was going to be snail male, fanzines, conventions. Now instantly, boom, I have an opinion of a post somewhere, someone's gonna see it. And I'll have like 500 followers who agree

[00:24:52] with me or not agree with me. And before that is that no use to happen. But now everyone has an opinion that could be that could be shown. And you know, just a much different playing field

[00:25:07] that is now there was back then. It's much different. Yeah, there's no real filter. It's like, okay, what do you hope, you know, you should approach it like an essay, whereas it's what do you hope to do at the end of this? Right. That makes perfect sense.

[00:25:23] But yeah, sometimes it's wishful thinking where it's just like, okay, well, it's kind of backfiring. It does backfire a lot of times. It certainly does. Certainly does. But like I said, it's what it is. And they say even like you're going, it's just something old to Gene Kuhn.

[00:25:46] I mean, he yes, thank you for that segue actually. Yeah, so He was a trope laser. I mean, he established some of the pillars of what Star Trek is, the code, the steps of the Bible, all your certain things that happened and people followed

[00:26:08] and I'm glad that being trot changed too much today, pretty much kept it the way it was. But then with the, the Federation and with the Prime Directive and everything else, pretty much sustained now, back then, my adjustments, people change a little bit, but

[00:26:27] pretty much the core information message is still there, which I think is a great testament to the trailblazer for sure. Just kind of the unofficial show runner in a way. He was just always one of the lead writers and producers and much like DC, he later worked on

[00:26:46] The Streets of San Francisco and before that, he did a lot of utter war in Western and crime shows like Have Gun Will Travel, Maverick, Wagon Train, which is often what Deep Space Nine

[00:26:58] was considered to be, yeah, and Dragon, Bonanza, my favorite Martian, the FBI, and my favorite, Combat. Oh my goodness! Oh, oh boy, that was going back a long time. I remember that, but now

[00:27:13] it's finally. It pretty much was the Star Trek of its day as everyone gets together in a new village that they're at war in and you know, everyone gets their moment to speak and resolve

[00:27:23] an issue. And I mean, it makes sense that he would be on this because it's the same kind of deal except now he's got to format it to Roddenberry's kind of standard, which is show all

[00:27:34] these different smart scientists and starfleet military guys and what do they do on their predicament. And yeah, no, it's cool that he got to do that. He was a producer also on the

[00:27:48] City of Edge of Tomorrow episode. So I'm sure he would contribute a lot of different things. And it seems like I can't go with one discussion without seeing him listed on one of the top

[00:27:59] Star Trek writer, you know, discussion. It's just the same thing that he died so young. They died in the 40s. Yeah, he didn't make it past the 70s. Yeah, he passed away in 73 at age 49.

[00:28:15] Wow. I just wish, like I said, I would have been so great to see him jump over. It's a TNG where he could like participate in that. I'm quite sure he will have been a wonderful

[00:28:28] inspiration and the guidepost for other people to listen to the format, their ideas of how it should be and incorporate his ideas and his beliefs in there. There was such a nice merging of

[00:28:42] beliefs and ideas into new babies so to speak, you know, combining the two. It would have been welcome. It would have been totally welcome. Yeah, he's done some big movies like The Raiders, The Killers and Journey to Shiloh as well as Ron Berry's TV movie The Questered Tapes.

[00:29:04] I love that. I'm so heartbroken. Never keep a king of series. They had such potential being... It really could have. Funny enough, DC Fontana also wrote a novelization version of it. Yeah, that's correct. And Foxworth, who was a common track actor, also was the main

[00:29:22] cyborg Android guy on there and... Yep, with my frarrow, with DJ Honeycut. Yes, there's another from here. You're going into the vault. Yeah, so he's probably the most prolific. He has probably more credits than any of these guys.

[00:29:40] He's done other stuff like Laredo, Peter Gunn, General Electric Theater, The Mod Squad, and Kung Fu. So yeah, he's some big, big games. Yeah, he's the most fit out there. Even the original show, The Wild Wild West. And the funny is, you know, that came out around

[00:30:02] this after track, but my dad always kind of considered that track in The Wild West. Yes. Kirk and Spock were just badass sheriffs. Yeah, on a wagon train and like a badass. One of them had to be an inventor with sci-fi gizmos. So in a way, they're almost

[00:30:23] like the Batman and Robin, but in the West. Yeah. Oh man. Apparently, Bill Shatner dedicated a chapter in his memoir Star Trek Memories 2. Jean Kuhn called On Some Heroes. So that's pretty cool. To have Shatner give such a big play in his book, Greenies Alive. Because he

[00:30:50] greatest demand is he does not dispense credit as really as he should. But in this case, he really gave it his all. So you know that it really was heartfelt when he gave that such such a big club to Jean. Yeah. Even when Shatner took away Zego, he

[00:31:06] often really, you know, you can often tell when he legit really likes someone. And oh man. So that's pretty cool. There it is. All together, who would you say are your favorites out of these three that we picked tonight?

[00:31:29] Three. Oh gosh. It really depends on my mood. I have to say, people can all cliche about what's your favorite five episodes of Star Trek? Well, depends on your favorite. That's not good.

[00:31:47] You can't even take it at the qualified. Are you asking about a funny, you know, something that's funny that goes like trials and tribulations, you know, things of that sort, you know, a piece of

[00:32:00] the action. But what if I'm going for a morality play, you know, like an obsession or things like that? Or it really depends on what I'm in the mood for. If I'm in the mood for a deep, deep philosophical discussion, you know, deep subject, then that's what's the

[00:32:24] episodes and so forth. So I got five sets I go with, thing on my mood. Funny action. Like, you knock them out like the doomsday machine, your action, a morality play where, you know, you're talking about a deep talk about morality or some sort,

[00:32:45] what the obsession or things of that or human nature, some sort of human nature. So, but, okay, Harlan, he's the person I'd go for if I want a deep thought on what's going on. You know, he reads deep into certain matters and makes you think a lot.

[00:33:08] Yeah. And even though a lot of his work is just adapted, you know, the idea is to speak so big, you know, right? And, and, and Jean, like I said, Jean, if I want something that's

[00:33:20] color humor in it, you know, or just a little morality, I call him Jean. Because he's basically Ron Berry's right hand. There's a reason they call him the forgotten Jean. He's just like, he's there to kind of just make sure, hey,

[00:33:33] like you say, it's a morality play at the end of this in between the spark and bones humor. Right. Exactly. That's how you get that off of yelling and written well, where you can believe them saying that. Or just they would totally talk this way versus other ones

[00:33:48] where you're like, okay, that was rewritten by someone else. You know, I mean, even that, even that, uh, the scene in immunity syndrome where spark tells McCoy, you know, wish him luck, and he walks away and goes to the shell crab and McCoy's mother's real softy. Good luck,

[00:34:08] because he doesn't tell you, doesn't tell him that in his face. And then they run, you know, Fox is Dr. McCoy's show wish me luck, you know, like, wow. Whoa. He didn't say, you know, say so. It's like, wow, there's a shock.

[00:34:27] Firstly, I understood that. And I think DC Fontana, you know, she was, how do you describe it? She was the type of person that was a trailblazer. You know, I curious what McCoy, she kind of would coat everything with detail with characterization, kind of like any good

[00:34:46] in the writer's room. Right. She would coat everything and she she's meticulous. And she, uh, there's the science behind this whole scenario, which we'll have to use to stop the nuclear reactor or so and so is first day using spaceship. She's

[00:35:03] just that kind of cool gal. And yeah, she was like, you know, she reminds me of a fan being on the show. Like if I was going to be, if I was going to be on the show, Star Trek,

[00:35:17] I want DC Fontana to write me into the way she would write me because there'll be like a fan doing it, you know, like going to the show and being, you know, being a fan, a fan guy just

[00:35:30] oozing and just taking it all in. That's what I feel about her. Yep. And she noted how she really dug all the characters, just how strong they were. She, believe it or not, even though she only did one episode, she, Deep Space Nine was her favorite.

[00:35:48] So that's wild. Usually, you know, when you get the track writers, they're often just going to mention just what they worked on, you know, as their favorite. So that's pretty wild. But yeah, she went from being Ron Berry's secretary to then being a key writer and, uh,

[00:36:07] she's quoted as going into season three when Ron Berry did not wish to continue as story editor. She wanted to freelance and write for other series. She'd however want to continue to do scripts and she was agreeable to this. I was given a contract

[00:36:23] in February of 68 and called for a guarantee of free scripts with an option for free more. When anyone had asked why I chose to leave the editorship, I had always given this reply. Yeah, it's like this back then. You told me back 55 years ago, you know, 53 years ago.

[00:36:41] Contract negotiations are different. Yeah. Yeah, you look at just, it's in the 60s, you want to get paid, you have to put money out, put, you pay bills, it was a cool show but you still have to pay your bills.

[00:36:54] And there's no backup that like there is now where if this fail I could do something else. Nowadays, you know what? If you arrive at Star Trek, any new series or anything else,

[00:37:05] you have backup. You have network. You always have different things to do to make money or do something else to branch out. So people are really completely different. Animal back in the 60s, completely different. You got really the time frame and the

[00:37:20] area you work with all the time. It's not just, it's not just political, what I call geopolitical or geohistorical where you have to realize that the time element where it was is very important. 1960s. Yeah.

[00:37:39] But post Vietnam and we're having to find ways to creatively outspeak, you know? Right, right. Exactly. You know, you're thinking 60s, thinking what was going on. There were times Star Trek was on. You get Vietnam, it's assassination, you have civil rights.

[00:37:57] All this stuff and question that we're trying to break through. Exactly. So I always liked the fact they were sticking a little something in with the past ascents where they would get a morality play about the theory that they're in the 60s.

[00:38:13] I always thought that was kind of cool looking back on like they were set that past the good old NBC with sense and let them get fly with that. So that's always cool.

[00:38:24] Oh, yeah. And especially now where there's just so many other guys that just either do or don't let stuff fly. And it's just cool that this is how some people, it's beneath them. They just

[00:38:41] don't understand what they're even discussing or being asked to discuss. So it's cool that again, just the right people get it and they can get away with it. Absolutely. So true. So true. But like you say, there's just so many social and civil

[00:39:01] stuff having to be called a question. And it's cool that, you know, if anything these great shows can remind people about stuff that is taken for granted nowadays that should still be reminded about. Yes, that's so reverberate to all these years.

[00:39:20] Why do you think we talk about some of our favorite fantasy and horror movies because there's social commentary often in them? Yes, they are. You know, realize that you think

[00:39:29] about it in the end and a lot of it still applies to ones that are good. It ages well. It's, you know, doesn't age at all really. It's about how many years go by. So certain things can

[00:39:43] tend to go and become famous for the next generation and the next generation. And it doesn't change at that point. It's not just the baby boomers or generation X. It transcends generations. 1000%. And oh man, it's so deep, so, so deep, so dense.

[00:40:08] It is fun looking up some of her commentary how she had some unused material for the quest or TAVES as well as the show Logan's Run. And on Logan's Run there was a sentient human like Android called Rem and that character was an in the movie or

[00:40:26] the book version but was on the show and it was noticed being similar to the quest or character that Ron Berry had for his own TV pilot. And Rem left over scripting was used for the

[00:40:41] developing of data on next gen. So that's pretty cool. Yes, he don't throw it into the course. The show doesn't last. You shape it and use it. Yeah, no need to write anything. Just blend old

[00:40:57] stuff and detail that. Why not? Sure, absolutely. And I applaud her honor Hugo Award NAMM. That's kind of an award show that doesn't get talked about enough. I mean, it's so hard to win something like that. Yeah, especially nowadays. It's so political, political size of the Hugo Awards.

[00:41:19] You know, before you read the book, read the thing, you know, talk about it, whatever. And now it's just like even G-body awards. I don't see as much talked about as those. I'm like, isn't that it?

[00:41:30] That was a big deal, especially in the 90s. Right, it was. It just gets fluffed nowadays. It doesn't get the recognition that you used to get. You know, I won a P-Buy award. You know, I won a Hugo.

[00:41:46] Yeah, it's great. But back then it was a big deal. I mean, stuff you wish we could talk about more. Yeah. Although the point is, I mean, Star Trek was only over three seasons to original.

[00:41:59] TOS. And it's just funny that out of the three seasons, you know, the first is like Leo Nemo in Never Counted Nemes for being a lead on a TV show. Yeah, I see so many people complain about

[00:42:12] action and even horror movies not getting enough recognition. I'm like, yeah, but you better recognize that sci-fi especially gets mocked. There's still some people who, I mean, that's why they would borrow, you know, for B-5, you know, track directors like Adam Demoy and

[00:42:27] Mark, Mike Vijar because they're like, they're the only ones who know how to shoot it and organize it this way even though it's really, even though we're using the same techniques that are being

[00:42:35] used in all the medical and procedural shows. It's just people, like you say, when they put up a barrier and they don't want to understand something, just the ignorance just is about not going to work some way. That's true. They really, they people just, oh, there's prejudice.

[00:42:54] I'll use the P word. They have a prejudice against sci-fi in many ways, you know, from the Academy Awards to every other awards that's eating you out there. The instinct that's not as good as drama. Yeah, it's drama. It's great. You write it well. Do you remember

[00:43:14] that? This is what all the other shows out there, you just set in space or set somewhere else. Yeah. It's the writers that determine that. Just because it's a star and it doesn't mean it's bad.

[00:43:26] Right. Doesn't mean it's bad. Doesn't mean it's less good than being in a hospital or being out west, you know, back in the West, it's just a different setting. But you can transport the different areas, those same issues there, Bob. You know, people who want to improve

[00:43:47] themselves or have problems and try to resolve it and they're going through it and going through as humans and having their follow-up bubbles and problems and deal with that and with things outside the control and things that they can control and deal with human beings with their

[00:44:03] policies and issues and personalities. Oh boy. Having to deal with just so much that we just wish wasn't a deal. Yeah, sometimes which goes back sometimes you enjoy being out but it's just being doing the zoomings or just working out of the house. You have all

[00:44:28] of these politics right there. You think what you have to do is you're done and you have to deal with all the collateral stuff that needs to be taken care of while you're in the office setting.

[00:44:39] Which is just so bad. Go for it. Go for it. Alrighty. Well, it's been a delight having you on here and anything you would care to promote if anything? Promote. No, not per se. The only thing I

[00:44:57] promote actually is that I'm on Facebook a lot. People see who I am. Jim, Jim, Jim Ho, or Jimmy Ho or whatever and I'm around a lot and I post a lot of things on my timeline. The only thing I

[00:45:09] promote is that, hey, just because you have issues, I have issues like you have issues. My issues I've got bipolar. I'm high-funging. I'm not a total crazy person. I'm transparent about everyone knows I have it. Let's not villainize anybody.

[00:45:29] I don't feel stigmatized by it and like I said, it's something I'd live with. I'd live with it and it's not shameful. It's not a shameful subject that should be very like back in the old days.

[00:45:40] I mean if it was cancer or anything else then yeah, then you know, then people talk about medical issues. It is a medical issue. It's just in my head. It's in my brain chemistry.

[00:45:52] It just whacks out sometimes. I work hard. I get right so that's the way to promote the fact that mental health is important. All issues, PDSC, everything else, it's not shameful. You need

[00:46:07] to talk about it. You need to confront it. Deal with it. Like all your other medical issues out there. Whether it be cancer, you know, danger or whatever, you need to deal with whatever

[00:46:20] medical issue you have and try to cope with it and make it pop who you are. And that's what that's who I am. Instead of just keep running away from it acting like it doesn't exist is like well.

[00:46:32] Right exactly. It does exist. So that's why I tell people, yeah people know I'm bipolar, people who know me and I just said yeah that's who I am. I mean you get to know me,

[00:46:42] I would look crazy. That's Jimmy Hogan crazy person but I'm not totally crazy. I think most will like me and we take it from there. That's all. With my bipolar so like yes. It's an honor to get to know you especially going back and forth.

[00:46:59] Well great that. It's been a wonderful time talking to you. I truly enjoyed your phone. Yeah, I'll get you on for some other fun chats and I'll let you know in this episode. Sounds good like you know that would be great.

[00:47:13] 1000% and you be safe out there. Thank you very much. Take care. Every week on Brent this you get inside Hollywood info and tips great breakfast wrecks and booty debates. Most of all, you get the most delightful 30 minutes of your week.

[00:47:44] So dig in. It's Brent this time listen at Brent this dot com Apple podcast or wherever fine podcasts are found. Do you ever find yourself thinking about who would win a fight between

[00:47:54] Goku and Superman? Hi I'm James Gavzian on the who would win show me and my co host Ray ignore anything important happening outside world and debate fictional battles between characters from comics movies and video games. We got a new show every week

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