LOTR Rings of Power Season 2 Review (with Kathryn Boland & Aaron Airmet)

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[00:01:09] We got a wonderful chat ahead of us tonight. I'm your host Cam Soley. With me is superfan Kathryn Boland. Welcome.

[00:02:48] Check out the Everything Lore of the Rings and Tolkien Facebook group. And returning from Lore of the Rings, the explainer himself, Aaron Airmet. Hello everyone! We got a big storm in front of us, but hopefully we can cruise through the darkness. Like usual, we're gonna do this typical civil pros and cons that you're not gonna find in a clickbait article. Would it adapt well? Could it use some serious work on? What was your favorite plot twist? All kinds of stuff.

[00:03:13] Kathryn, how did you personally like coming to Tolkien? Were you one of those who grew up with it in like the 80s or 90s? Or were you... see the movies first and then go back to the books? Or what crowd were you in? My first introduction to Tolkien was getting assigned to The Hobbit in my seventh grade literature class. Nice! That was the fall of 2001. Sweet! December of 2001, Fellowship of the Ring dropped.

[00:03:43] And at that point, I read all the books at some point in high school. Tried to read The Simerlian first time. I think I was like 16. That wasn't happening. I was not ready. Kind of got disconnected from it for a little while, but post-COVID and such. Started listening to like podcasts and diving more in. Finally finished with The Simerlian. And just got way into it.

[00:04:10] So yeah, I would say my first introduction is The Hobbit, then Jackson's L-O-T-R, then the actual books. More like deeper lore after that. Nice. No, very nice. It's not uncommon for them to definitely introduce The Hobbit. It's just easier. And that definitely made a difference for me. And it seems like when you go on the trilogy, if you're not going to do an audio book format, I definitely recommend kind of like Shakespeare or 1984.

[00:04:41] Everyone takes turns reading. It's intense. So, Aaron, man, hats off to you. You're still explaining all things Tolkien. There's a lot to explore. Well, and that's just it. It's just so funny having to explain to people. It's like it's more than just that the rings corrupt you. It's more than just what's a safe spot? You know, what's an untouched place? What the different elves factions, you know, why they split up into the woods versus the river?

[00:05:09] You know, it's just why the ants finally come around to aiding some of the fellowship. It's just. Yep. And why the story of the ants is so sad, because where are the endwives? We lost them. We don't know where they are. We don't know. Brings a tear to my eyes. I have my theory textually, but I'm down. Maybe not if we can get into that. That actually might not be a bad starting point. All right. So for those who haven't seen this yet.

[00:05:38] Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Disclaimer. There are spoilers. There are also lots of ants. Yes. Yes, there are. We love them. Yeah, I was really impressed by the animation on them. I. They still. So for those who don't know or who haven't kept up or have only seen. People do hot takes or on everything.

[00:06:06] So it's not part of the movie canon, but it's acknowledging the movie canon. So we can pretty much assume as soon as the third, you know, age begins with with the movies, you know, it's going to end there. The show's going to end there, you know, just showing you all the battles in the second age that lead up to. Or farting and then failing, you know, to take down.

[00:06:34] So on once and for all. But yeah, that the ends did come into a pivotal point. And I that would actually be a pro for me. I kind of liked how there was the buildup. I was like, OK, they mentioned them twice. I know I know they're going to feature in here somewhere. But when when are they going to come out? And then it was during. Yeah, I've heard the rescue. I remember that first trailer where the Antwife showed up. I mean, they had it in season one, right, where you kind of had to look like a seem to be like a couple almost.

[00:07:02] There was that in the Balrog and they kept using a promo material. And I didn't know how much of that was in it was shot. And then they said, let's incorporate it next season versus material. I don't know. But it was in the trailer, one of the trailers for season two, where one of them actually starts speaking. And for me, it was like the Antwives are this great mystery in my mind. Where did they go? What happened to them? Like, I'm so sad for Treebeard. He doesn't even know. And he's supposed to know everything. Yeah.

[00:07:30] You see this trailer for Rings of Power and an ant is speaking. And I kind of breezed over that. And then I was like, wait, hold up back up. That is an antwife like that. No, that's an antwife. You know, and I was like, oh, my gosh, mind blown. There's an antwife. It was that was really thrilling to see. Very nice. Catherine, what would you say is your theory on the.

[00:07:59] Where they are north of the Shire. A little textual clues sprinkled in there. Wasn't there a tree that almost swallowed a hobbit at one point? I think that would be that would be old man willow in the old forest right before they meet Tom Bombadil. Oh, I guess. But but Catherine, you you're probably referring to Sam and the Sandy man. The Miller are having this conversation in a pub. What is it in chapter one or chapter two of the fellowship? Yes.

[00:08:29] And Sam's like, my cousin saw a tree, an elm tree walking. And everybody's kind of making fun of Sam and stuff. But he like, he's so loyal. Too much to drink. And he's like, yeah, not kidding. Exactly. You know, there you go. I that's plausible, I guess, if they went up that way. But also, I'm OK with it being an enigma. Like Tom Bombadil, you know, Tolkien said, like. Some things are just an enigma and that's OK. And I'm cool with that.

[00:08:57] There was that kind of goes even back to the beginning of the fellowship movie, which I think this is in the book. You can correct me if I'm remembering wrong. I think when they're doing the fireworks and that funny opening and one of them looks like a dragon. I can't remember if that's in the book or not, but that was kind of a fun throwback. It is mentioned. Yeah. OK, so there you go. Yeah. Bilbo is just like, oh, I don't want to see another one of those creatures. So I did see a few other.

[00:09:26] Easter eggs and everything. What was my other one that I saw that I have on my notes? There was Sauron tricking Adar to attack the elves thinking he'll they'll destroy Sauron with it. And it's like, that's that's not how this works. You're you guys are going to be losing all your manpower while I slip under the cracks like I usually do. And there was a beautiful line in the sixth episode.

[00:09:55] Faith is not faith if it is not lived. Oh, yeah. Yes. I don't know. Had some good lines. Yeah. And absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But for those who don't know, at the other in between city, Numenara, that's our king of the guard, renouncing the Lord and pledging loyalty to the blind queen. So kudos to him for having that storyline, because, man, there was a lot of backstabbing there. There's this. Oh, oh, oh, the king's man. Yeah, it goes back to the whole. Oh, the king's man.

[00:10:25] How I could rant. Yeah. It was just like that. You can't barter with these guys. They're not loyal to anyone. And sure enough, that's the usual. Yeah. I think we're past being the bigger man. I think you got to take back your your kingdom. Mm hmm. There was a good arm break. Backstabbing. Like literal backstabbing. Oh, that's exactly what they do. And I'm just like, ah, backstabbing, human sacrifice, you know, just some minor things. Right. There. We'll get there to that lovely.

[00:10:55] Yeah, I'll tell you what, I would have renounced my daughter and be like, OK, you're going to pledge to these awful people. I do not blame him at all. And she irritates me to no end. Again, I can't wait. Oh, it was cool to finally see the Balrog though. Uh, and of course, Duren is like, I'm going to take them on. I'm like, oh, well, uh, I don't like these odds. It was the Balrog was pretty cool.

[00:11:24] The jump was pretty cool. But the thing that I had about it was they had this Balrog. So here's this big fire demon monster and he's stuck in the basement where all the mithril is. And the doors are like, oh, good. There was a rock fall. So that thing's never going to come back for us again. We're going to move on and talk about taxation from the other door floors and the taxation of trade routes and invade Queen Amidala. You know, it's like what? Yeah, like this is kind of a.

[00:11:53] Are you not concerned about this giant demon monster in your basement now? Like there's literally a monster in your basement and you're not worried about it. It's like the complete opposite of what my kids think. But so there you go. Yeah, I don't know if that food and whiskey is getting to their head or I don't know what's going on there. I thought there was a really interesting reversal of roles with during the third during the fourth. Because you start off, you know, during the third, the present king is the one who's very

[00:12:22] trepidatious about, you know, first the loyalty. Now, the third is done. Going deeper, taking more risks, mining, and then it becomes the exact opposite once he gets the ring. Absolutely. Oh, man. There was another. Speaking of Star Wars, there was a good actor they had in there as Sir Dill, that other elf who originally Elrond asks, hey, I need you to, you know, take these rings, destroy them. And of course, he he twists it and says, how about I meet you halfway?

[00:12:52] How about I return them? Like, no, that's not what I asked you to do at all. But yeah, he's another actor. You look him up. He's been in everything. Doom, Star Wars, Rogue One, Law and Order UK. I did kind of get weary after a while of Supreme Bar being taken advantage by Sauron and Halbran forms. Oh, the Celebrim banner. Come on, buddy. You got to call a spade a spade. This is just not working.

[00:13:19] But I do think they covered it up for a bit, just showing, hey, he can deceive him by making the battles outside his, you know, village looking harmless when really everything's on fire. And yeah. And that moment when, you know, he's basically Sauron. But now he sort of like closes his eyes and it's like a little head like he's like pulling those. He's like working his Meyer magic. Yeah. No, Charlie Vickers just being an absolute master. Like he's made to play this role.

[00:13:48] Mm hmm. Charles Edwards, too. God remember. He is a deceiver. Yeah. They gave Arandir, the heroic elf, more to do on his various quests. One of my favorites. One of my favorites. I love that he's not like, you know, one of these things. These high elves like, you know, Gulgalad being the king or Elrond is just like, he's Elrond. He's a soldier. You know, he was. I politely disagree. Guarding the Southlands.

[00:14:19] He's both allied with Morgoth. But then he's up there, you know, the Elvengers. The Elvengers. I love it. And it's that, you know, even the smallest person can change the course of the future idea, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because of his actions, because of his honor. It's the honor. He's earned that. And then he's still having to find himself to disagree with the head elf and it's like, well, so this is why they go their separate place. They just cannot. Oh, yeah.

[00:14:47] I really hope he finds more to live for than vengeance against Adar. Yeah. I would hate for it to be just revenge at this point. Yeah. Because it didn't really add up with what we know Elrond to be where he's bitter, but he's not cynical. He's just realistic. You know, I always took him as kind of the Spock of Lord of the Rings, kind of like in Star Trek. Yeah. He's past emotions. It's like, yeah, you're pragmatic. Right. You don't get it. You don't get it. I'll say it again. You don't get it.

[00:15:17] So come to me when you actually need help, but you have to do it my way. Got strong convictions. He'll take that leap like his mom, but he didn't turn into a bird. Yes. Yeah, man. There was some good use of the Eagles here. Love that. Um, yes, we got nine poorly crafted rings. Was I keeping count? Okay. I kept counting. I'm like, wait, there's seven. Wait, nine. Oh yeah, that's right. He's adding two more.

[00:15:47] Okay. A couple more there. Math are hard. Um, what did you think of the Numenarian civilians? And, uh, they showed a little more of that other in between, uh, village. It's not called the Southland place that that was overrun by them. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. So just if anyone's got to watch any clip, I would definitely recommend all four tragedies montage.

[00:16:15] I call it happening in the final episode is like, we got the Hobbits. Then we got the dwarf funeral. Then we got the Elf city. And now we've got the Southland place being overrun. You know, being enslaved. It's like good grief. How things are not looking good. Yeah. Yeah. Kudos to the editor. Kudos to framing. Uh, a lot, a lot of new directors and writers that I saw this season. So kudos to them for not just abandoning and saying, I want to do my own thing and drop everything in the first season.

[00:16:43] It was like, no, got to continue. I thought around there and glad you had a cool kind of friendship going. And I did have to pay extra attention in the middle of the episodes. And I will just say Zildur is way too trusting. He kept on him. I know he's the kind of the Leroy Jenkins. It kind of wrecks it for everybody. The Anakin Skywalker. But it's like, man, dude. So I don't know if they're trying to imply that, that he's too trusting and he keeps letting his guard down.

[00:17:13] Which is why the wild men kept taking advantage of them. So yeah, maybe he's got some growing up to do. Yeah. In season one, he was very much like I'm the teenager. My dad doesn't get me. I was going to go to Tosche steak station and pick up some power converters. You know, he's definitely that one. He was definitely that style in season one. But in season two. Yeah. Season two, he grew up a little bit. Yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:40] But he's still he's still young man, naive, innocent, not experienced. Still still has some. Some things to learn. I'm going to be. He becomes the founder of the king, kingdom of Gondor. Right. Thank goodness. This is before the wild men become enslaved by Sauron and start bringing elephants to the battle. They would not have lasted. This is like this is like in their infancy. They're just getting ambushed ambushed. I'm like, dude, you need to reverse course. This girl says a lot of things.

[00:18:10] I don't think she means many of them. Yeah. But that scene with the spiders in the cave, though, very reminiscent. Oh, yeah. Of she lab and on golden on the great tradition of of spider monsters. I definitely got Hobbit book flashbacks. It's like, OK, so remember they're in every dark forest. They're everywhere. But yeah, if you don't get out of here, you're you and your horse and you're going to be. Feasted upon. So you might want to. Wake up.

[00:18:40] How about that horse? That is one loyal. That is a lovely. I love Beric. Beric standing forever. He might be my favorite character of season two. Oh, Beric. Beric the horse. The official rings of power account like posted this thing. It was like all these characters like swipe for the true hero. And the last one is Beric. Beric. There you go. There you go. It seems like a tradition, though, of like shadow facts.

[00:19:08] All, you know, Snowmane, Theoden's horse, all of these like heroic horses. Yeah, I was like half joking, thinking to myself, like, does Beric have some Mara's blood? Hmm. I think potentially. Maybe. Potentially. Maybe something. He's got something in him. Um. I got to say, though, I don't think the wizard stranger is Saruman.

[00:19:37] You mean the dark wizard? The dark wizard, yeah. Who do you think he is? One of the blue wizards? Uh, I saw some speckling in the blue. I know there was a brown wizard as well. Mm hmm. A little bit of Radagast. It might be Radagast. It might be. That'd be a big change for Radagast. Yeah. Maybe. I'm trying to get like, look at my birds. I know. I. Twigs in my hair. I. And to be fair, I know we got a while before they reveal that. Yeah.

[00:20:07] Uh, I didn't realize that was Kieran Hines the whole time. And for those who don't know, he's been everything. He was Julius Caesar on Rome. He was in. Uh, the terror. He's been in Munich. He's been in all kinds of movies and TV. And I was just like, who is that voice? I know that voice. I know that voice. Who he is still in the scenery right here. And, uh, making Chris really happy. Uh, I, I do know Saruman did say he had some business to attend to in Ron.

[00:20:36] I don't know if I, some people were like, Hey, it's probably him. I'm like, I don't know. I just think if you made him Saruman, it'd be a lot. You'd have to re tinker to. Cause they're just so calm when they're introduced in both the book and the movie. I would have to, a lot of suspension disbelief to be like, okay. Hmm. Yeah. I see your point there. I, I would like to think Saruman comes in later and on seats, the guy and then makes it look deceives Gandalf to believe like, Oh, it's totally not a power struggle. You know? Yeah.

[00:21:06] And you know, by the third age working with, with Gandalf, he's again, like a good guy. So that's a fact until it's seeming like a good guy. That's a lot of, that would be a lot of reframing. It's just like, well, and I think part of this too, is it's rings of power is tripped over their own feet here because, um, you know, the wizards didn't even really start to arrive until pretty late into the third age. Yeah. That's a good point. I think, yeah.

[00:21:33] One thing that was kind of rumors, I saw supernatural sightings, but no one knew what it was or missed. The timelines is definitely something they've taken liberty with to make all these characters work together. Cause they were just such like fascinating characters. Right. And I, I personally okay with that. Um, but you know, it does make you ask some questions. Um, yeah, go ahead.

[00:22:00] I was just gonna say, I, I, I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Catherine. Like they, the, the, the, the condensing of the timeline has been for me, I think, I think it was one of the fatal flaws of rings of power. And I think you could try to see a lot of their mistakes and broken things. And, and I would say things that just don't work, I think can be traced back to that decision of condensing the timeline. Um, I, I see what they're saying. Okay, great.

[00:22:28] We don't want to kill men off every single season. So we're going to have like this timeline where the whole second age is going to be condensed into like, well, I don't know, six months, nine months, one year. So I don't know. It's like, ah, how do you take thousands of years? I mean, Peter Jackson cut 17 years, right? In the fellowship ring. So sure. We can cut. I mean, Tom Bombadil makes sense. Cause it's, it's a fun chapter, but it, yeah. Cinematically you would be like, take that scene out. Nothing changes, you know? Yeah.

[00:22:56] And nothing actually happens in those 17 years. I mean, Tolkien just kind of breezed over it. And when he wrote the fellowship of the ring, but to take the entirety of the second age and all those hundreds of years and the different spans of characters and the evolution of all of those things talked about evolution before, like, and then to condense that all down. I was like, ah, ah, it's like, you, you offered me, you offered me a beautiful Thanksgiving feast spread, and then you condensed it all into a sardine can.

[00:23:24] And, and I, I have an issue with that. I can't, I can't do that. Yeah. No, it's fine. I, I feel like they could have rearranged it way better. I, I've, it, I feel like they only really partially covered their tracks by doing the whole, by the way, we don't know where wizards are from, you know, other than the asteroids we've seen, but yeah, I, I like, I'd like them to close that out. Maybe you have kind of, again, more reasonable doubt, kind of like Bombadil instead of just

[00:23:53] kind of doing the whole, how do I become good at my job? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On that point, you know, the, I've been thinking about, you know, on this last watch of on fairy stories and suspension of disbelief. And you shouldn't have to. Yeah. If it's fantasy, you should already have a building. Yeah. And I find myself with certain choices, definitely having to suspend, just suspend my disbelief. Right. Right.

[00:24:19] Now, Tolkien jiggered with these stories for literal dates, like the number of drafts and these writers because of just today and capitalism and what they're working with. You can't really do that. How funny how this is on Amazon. Yeah. There's the real ring of power. Yeah. I could resist. Sorry. Do you think they're going to have a little more?

[00:24:47] An interesting point might be of like, Tolkien was so meticulous about the timelines. Like that's one of the things that he just like massaged and refined over and over and over and over and over. And so maybe there is something to that flow of time because he wants to also so historically minded. He's writing history and mythology. Right. Yeah. He wants, he wanted a history for his languages that he invented. He's like language doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's connected.

[00:25:16] It's connected with people who speak language in their history. What's the history behind my languages? You know, and CS Lewis is like, hey, Tolkien, you should write that down. So he did. Right. That's right. He did it. Flagpole and a evil queen, evil snow queen with. Exactly. Yeah. It's in your closet. It's so funny. The difference in like. Yeah. Like carefully they plan things.

[00:25:45] CS Lewis was such more, so much more like improvisational. Yeah. It's a fun in the forest. By the lampposts, whatever. No, that's a good point. I. Um, since MGM is now owned by Amazon and they were kind of holding up all these rights, do you think they'll get a little more creativity that they can do? I have been wondering about the ball of Numenau. Yeah. It's like they were splitting the bill and that was kind of what was the hold up from the start

[00:26:12] is they couldn't adapt directly from Silmarillion and other, they can mention a few other characters. That was the roadblock. So. Yeah. Because the Akalabeth is my favorite. And I've been like, I don't think they have the rights. I mean, just imagine. They don't. They do not. I would like, I like when I was reading, I was like, this is so cinematic. But Amazon has money. Like imagine with like, Ramakuri's music and like the wave coming over, like blow my mind.

[00:26:39] There's, there's hints of it in the appendices and in the actual text of the book, those that you have rights to, but they do not have rights to the Silmarillion. And I, I suspect that the family estate, the Tolkien family estate is not going to want to open that up anytime soon, but I don't know. I don't know anybody over there. So if you are a member of the Tolkien estate, Hey, I'd love to talk to you. Come reach out to me at hosted rings podcast.com. But I don't think that they will give out the rights to the Silmarillion anytime soon.

[00:27:06] And so it's, you're just going to have to work with what you got. Right. Right. And in no way am I trying to villainize either side. I'm just wondering, cause I knew, you know, the MGM acquisition was a big part. And so I was just like, okay, interesting. Okay. I just wonder if that was going to change anything or if that'd be too much trouble, even with millions of dollars from Amazon. Yeah. And up and down. Copyright. When it comes to Lord of the Rings is so complicated. It's so complicated. I have no doubt. Right. Book rights, book rights. Yeah.

[00:27:35] There's the lore in that in itself, like with the ace copies and like, this company found out they could like print this a bit, you know, and Tolkien was like, don't buy those. It's a knockoff novel. Don't get the pirated copies of The Hobbit. Yeah. Kudos also to kind of concluding all the stuff with the orcs. I don't think I could have done another season of eight. Are I just like, okay. So you played Sauron for a full. He unseated him. Failed. Then he got a can of whoop ass back in his direction.

[00:28:05] So those dark elves are all enslaved. The orcs are all enslaved. Sauron's where he needs to be. He's back where he was when he got betrayed. Now he's back. So if anything, I would I would say season one was kind of the introduce introduction and some fun action. This was more of the stalemate on all the chess pieces on the board. This is like, okay, let's make some progress. And now we're at this stage. We made some bad moves.

[00:28:34] We made some good moves. Now season three is going to be our path to victory and our failure to destroy the ring. Yeah. Mm hmm. I don't know. Interesting. That's just what I'm gathering. I could be absolutely wrong. I don't know how many more seasons there are going to be at this. I'm sure it's a nightmare in the writers room. What do I say? What do I adapt? What do I keep out? What do I imply? Yeah. What do I hint at? But can't legally show.

[00:29:01] I'm sure they have to have a list of can't name. Yes. And Luthien is one of those. Man, I'll touch Baron and Luthien. There you go. I want it. I want it. The ring isn't tempting as I want it. Um, I don't know, man. I wonder if, I mean, going back to what can they show up? Numenor in the fall of Numenor. Are we going to get Sauron in Numenor? I sure hope so. For Morgoth. And I think you're right.

[00:29:31] I mean, he's got nowhere else to conquer really at this point. And he says he fears it more, you know, more than anywhere else. I totally missed that. So, uh, yeah. Well, yeah. So Sauron is rising in power. The elves have been broken. He's got his rings of power except for the three. And so who's left to challenge him? Well, these men of the West over there. And, and when our father's own hears that, Hey, there's this uppity Maya over in Middle Earth, who's calling himself the king of the world. He's like, I can't have that. I'm the king of the world. Right? Mr. Mr.

[00:30:01] Yeah, prideful man. And so he takes his whole armada. Like he mobilizes the entire armada, the fleet, all the infantry, all the cavalry, everything of Numenor. And he's going to attack Sauron and Mordor. Well, Mordor takes our Sauron takes his forces out there. They see the Numenoreans out there on their fleet and Sauron's servants, his army. They're like, uh, we're out. See you later, buddy. And they run away. They're gone.

[00:30:30] I'm going to move my goals through warfare with the Numenoreans. I must do something else. Right? And so he does what Sauron always does. Mastermind again. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to tell a few lies. I'm going to pretend to be a friend and. Like the emperor. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, that's where he is. And the way he. Comes to know, you know, the, the desires, the, maybe not the most wholesome desires

[00:30:58] of who he's dealing with, you know, pretty quickly picked up like, what is Celebrimbor want? He wants to be honored. Rise above Feanor. Mm hmm. Like that's the, the string he pulls. Yeah. I'll tap into that. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, we get to Numenore. We, we see it in season two with, you know, Farrison looking like, oh, the, you know, what was always going to be beyond our reach, the immortality. Mm hmm. Which was a gift. It was a gift. It was a gift. Yep. Bingo. But he doesn't see that. Right.

[00:31:27] And, and yeah, he's like, why can't I be immortal? Remember the door is open. The door is shut. The door is shut. The final battle. Um, so I'm glad you guys opened up that channel. Uh, so my speculation, if that's the case, given all the people that the Lord in Numenore was branding as traitors wouldn't take much for Sauron to go into a forest where they're all certain.

[00:31:53] I have no doubt it'll go to the wild men, but he might go to all the other guys at the Southland place who are just getting out of there and just say, Hey, what can I do to help reinforce order? But really it's going to create more chaos. Plus he'll take down the kingdom, but it will be in his name, not their name. Mm hmm. Yeah. Sauron's got a lot more alliances that he needs to build. Say alliances wouldn't take much to have more like serfdoms that he needs to conquer

[00:32:22] like the Haradrim that they may be those creatures. I don't know. Yeah. He's, he's got some work to do before he's ready to, to, you know, enter into the third age and, you know, man's battles. I mean, all the other poetry they did sneak in there. I was, I thought was very well timed. I didn't. And so kudos to the whoever, uh, the producers for hiring some people who are just used to

[00:32:48] like season one, I was looking at the credits and it's like, man, they got every other person from the last kingdom or Vikings or game of Thrones to do behind the scenes adventure for the show. And this season is like, okay, let's get more of the costume and period guys. We got to go back to the suspense. Well, and then, so visually like, Oh, visually, I'm sure it's trancing.

[00:33:13] Uh, I, I, I hope it gets a, at least some Emmys for like costumes or something like some serious work went into this particular season. Yeah. But like you, you both summed up, there were some stuff is like, okay, I would have done that different. Uh, it didn't get to the point where I'm like, okay, they're just making this up now. I'm done. Um, I think it's that spirit of, you know, even if the, it's, it's this Bay Wolfian

[00:33:42] sense that, um, the Prancing Pony podcast. I love it. Yes. You know, even if like victory seems impossible, you don't like run away. Wasn't he inspired by Bay Wolf? Like you go down the swing. Um, I think that they captured in that sense of, yeah. Always searching for the light because it is there. It might, it might seem dark now.

[00:34:11] People might tell you you're crazy. You got no business doing this, but right now this is all that matters. Yeah. That's interesting. Cause I, I just recorded this morning, some thoughts on the lyrics behind the song called the writer from the new war of their hero movie. And yeah, beautiful song. And I, I sat down and I just played that song on a loop for about an hour and then just started

[00:34:38] writing down some thoughts from the, and you can't be the only one making beautiful. And that, and that was, that was the, uh, that was the main takeaway was when things are dark and bleak and most desperate. You can't give up cause you're not alone. Like you can't be the light, be the light, stand up. Whatever your challenge is, stand up, be the light. Those that, that, that those they will rise up and they will follow along with you. Like arise now writer.

[00:35:07] Um, it's a, I mean, I'm getting tingles right now. Just thinking about it again. It's such a beautiful, beautiful message. You go down either way, you know, isn't it better to go down? Um, yeah. That's what, that's what failed in told Aragorn. He's like, look, we're going to ride out of Helm's deep and we might cut a road through. I don't know. And we might just die, but either way, we're going to go out worthy of song. Let's bring it back to song, right? Yeah. It's going to be worthy of song.

[00:35:35] And I'm token put in that very clear conscious of Denethor. Who is just beyond despair. You know, I think my, the, my line is broken. So I'm literally going to douse myself. I'm literally going to burn myself. Going down in flames. He's alive. This is easy, man. We got this. No, that's a good call out. Yeah.

[00:36:04] I mean, as you were alluded to earlier is like, you have to sing not only to kind of invite other people to join a chorus, but also is like, we're, we're feeling it. We got all these vibes, all this energy and all these awakenings. It's definitely a very socially conscious and emotionally conscious way that they always incorporate this. It's not.

[00:36:33] If you had done this in old school Hollywood, they would have been like, okay, it's a musical. It's like, well, not exactly. There's, there's music, but it's not. It's not Pat and Cain's. Yeah, it's not. We sing and then we break for plot exposition. Then we go back to singing. It's like, no, we, we sing because it's what we do. It's like, it's, it's already part of our culture. Door door where the air is poison in your lungs. It goes back to the chorus.

[00:37:02] My fair Sauron. Melkor in his discord. Right. I just hilarious real of like this little kid with like a church choir. Oh, yes. Oh, that's so funny. Oh, that's so funny. Beautiful church choir. This one kid falls it over, dude. Good job. No core. You did it. You did it. Oh, there's a minute. It's like, you know, it's about one guy that kicked out, got kicked out of the choir

[00:37:31] for singing badly and that became evil. Yeah, exactly. He was the spoiled guy. You have to be nice to the quieter kids. The quiet guys. Yeah. Uh, I don't want to be able to be evil now. Like, no, serious. That's another big theme of Tolkien of. It'll just it's a constant fight. And that goes back to that. You know, you just have to keep choosing good.

[00:38:00] You just have to keep choosing. To step up and fight. Did he ever. I don't know his history. Did he ever have any issues. Green lighting this to people back then? Or was it just kind of one of those? If you got an idea, pitch it. Oh, you mean all the drama with. Oh, just publishing. Yeah. That's a whole thing. And I couldn't recite the specifics, but I know it was a. He had a lot of trouble with publishers like.

[00:38:30] The only reason. Okay. You want to. Okay. Let's. Let's take the token theme of chance here. Right? So. He took a chance. Tolkien wrote this draft of the Hobbit. They were like stories that he told his children by the fireside. He has this draft. He lends it to somebody who lends it to somebody who sees somebody who gives it to a publisher's kid who's 10 years old. He reads it and he says, hey, this would be a great book. So they publish it. Instant success. They want a sequel to the Hobbit. So he's.

[00:39:00] He's like, well, yeah, you want the sequel. But really what I need to publish is the Silmarillion. There was like, no, no, no, no. We want the Silmarillion. We want Hobbit. So it's like he starts. He starts trying to write the Lord of the Rings and it becomes much more darker. He sequel of the Hobbit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, I still think we need to publish the Silmarillion. No, no, no, no, no, no. We don't want the Silmarillion. We want this Lord of the Rings. So we publish this Lord of the Rings. And then for decades, he's like, OK, now can I finish the Silmarillion? No, no, no. We don't want to publish the Silmarillion yet. I got to keep working on it.

[00:39:27] And so it's like this whole decades long battle of what do I publish? How do I publish it? Very slim chance of it ever getting published in the first place. If that draft hadn't fallen into the publisher's son's hands. Imagine man. Like imagine the world without Lord of the Rings, without some 10 year old having a manuscript and telling his publisher dad. That's a new catastrophe in the primary world. It so is. It absolutely is a new catastrophe.

[00:39:54] Like, imagine if those chances had never happened. Like we would not be here. We wouldn't have any wizards. It'd be taboo to talk about. Also why, you know, when you've read the Silmarillion, the different lens you can bring to Lord of the Rings. It's like they didn't, you know, looking like or I made the great. It's like, you don't know the significance of that. Right. We'd see kingdoms, but we wouldn't see any real magic or what makes everyone stand to power. It wouldn't be as deep. Yeah, it'd be like, it's.

[00:40:24] You know, Sam seeing Aarendel like you don't get the significance. Yeah. So this is one big grand story over thousands of years. Oh, and guess what? It's also your story and it's my story. And we all have a story in this little Middle Earth saga. Like, it's just it amazes me really. Oh, man. Yeah. That's why it's all timeless. And there are many of us who are completely obsessed. Yeah. Guilty.

[00:40:54] Guilty as charged. Guilty as charged. I was talking with somebody tonight and he was like, so what other fantasy authors have you read? And I was like, that one. I'm sorry. I only do Tolkien. And he's like, really? What about Terry Pratchett and blah, blah, blah, blah. And all this other stuff. And I was like, I'm sorry. I can only do Tolkien. I've read a few others and you're definitely like, oh, that's a Tolkien thing. That's true. But that's just it. Like sometimes it got people.

[00:41:21] One of my least favorite things when talking about any pop cultures, everyone's like, oh, so you don't like this genre that's like, I just like how this is done. Yeah. It goes beyond. Yeah. Yeah. You got people who aren't even sci-fi guys who love reading and watching The Expanse. So you're just like, there's, there's ways to come across it. You know, I see people who don't like horror, but unless it's like a Spielberg thing, like Poltergeist or, you know, Jaws, you know, it's that there are ways to stand out.

[00:41:50] And it's beyond just the norms is like, it's because of how they did it. It was typical. It's different. Yeah. To me, it's, it's not so much the dragons and the magic rings and then. Yeah. Now that's second nature in every fantasy. Now you're just like, okay, it's, it's all cool. It's all really interesting to like immerse yourself in, but it is those values and the

[00:42:15] characters and the interconnections and all these on three, the depth of that. All these on written rules that each of these villages and societies have. And I mean, and the fact that the biggest change when you look at even the movies, it's like, okay, so we're going to do a switcheroo. Let's have the elves who actually in the book, you know, help out at Rohan and Gondor,

[00:42:44] you know, like, let's have them just help out at Helm's Deep and get slaughtered. Yeah. It works better cinematically, even though it's a big change, but it's like, yeah, everybody was like that thematically because the. Oh yeah. It makes sense. Call back to the last alliance. True. Yeah. It was kind of their way of forming a second fellowship. Yeah. Yeah. We are here to honor that allegiance. And then he dies.

[00:43:14] Allegiance. The tragedy. The beautiful moment of like. The rarity, maybe, or, you know, the elves aren't so much used to. I mean, I've done this battle like that, but. I've done this argument. Like with John Grissom movies when people are like, or Tom Clancy books, they're like, oh, this is different from that. I'm like, yeah, because if I outline that for you, I will rob each respective book adaptation of its suspense.

[00:43:43] You have to keep that in the book and eliminate it from the movie because then I'll know exactly what's going to happen before it happens. You know, it's like different mediums. It's like you're seeing this now with all these successful video game adaptations and Lord of the Rings has had plenty of fun video games. Don't get me wrong, but it's just like, yeah, this works as a game. This would be terrible as a movie because you would just feel left out. You wouldn't know what's going on. You just see a lot of mindless action. It's just it's just amazing having to tell people again and again.

[00:44:12] And same thing with the studios X there. They're just bedazzled by everything going on. They don't know why it works. And you're having to tell them you guys figure out the marketing. Here's what you need to market. Let us figure out how to make it. Come in the editing room. Let us cook. I mean, it's it's interesting, you know, with with rings of power versus say that, you know, the Jackson trilogy switch the Hobbit. I think that they made that almost a whole other story. But you're not alone.

[00:44:43] Like, you know, there's been like, oh, it's fan fiction. And even, you know, I said it at first, like a little bit, you know, I had to be one over a little bit. A little bit pejoratively. But like fan fiction in the sense of like they're filling in these gaps. Yeah. I'm telling stories that weren't there, but it's all like these puzzle pieces that do fit in this universe. I mean, probably the biggest one was definitely having Saruman talking with all the elves on their conquest.

[00:45:13] It was like interesting because, yeah, he's absolutely he both. He and Legolas are absent from the fight. But I thought that was interesting that they put him in there is like, see, this is the guy who becomes the backstabber eventually. Interesting. We're seeing him in a good light at least once on film. Yeah. Legolas with those crazy contacts that. Oh, my God. How about the how about the giant river chase that lasts like a page that goes on for about 20 minutes?

[00:45:43] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to break that up. And if anyone mentioned Tauriel to me. You're only human. Human. Who is? Who is really, truly human? In the in this Tolkien legacy, because it seems like almost all of them get supernatural powers, mess with magic or get corrupted by the ring.

[00:46:11] You get you get the Rohirrim, right? The Rohirrim are the most relatable humans. That's like the in between. Like that's as human as you get is those villagers who are like. They're not Numenoreans. They don't have that longevity. They're not Dunedine. Yeah, that's a good point. They're not superhuman. They don't have the abilities that the hobbits do. It's almost like the Hatfields and McCoys. They're like, just don't come across our property. Do not pass. Leave us alone. In a way, the hobbits, you know, they are told.

[00:46:39] They're another like humanoid race. But yeah, they're kind of us. They're kind of the most relatable. They just. Although it is so wild. They have some like little cool capabilities. Although, but I would hate to just always be called by just everybody, just especially in spite, just always being dubbed. You, you halfling. Halfling. Half-wit halfling. Just everybody calls them. Yeah. Sounds nice there. What a whole of a took.

[00:47:09] Yeah. Of a took. Yeah. If it's not being a smart ass, if it's not being sarcastic, then it's almost always in, you know, like demeaning. It's like, geez, it's said by the humans. It's said by the evil men in the forest. It's said by the elves and the dwarves, which is even more. And Tree Bear doesn't know. A dwarf calling me a happy. He doesn't have a line for him in his song. I don't even know you all. I don't even know you. Yeah.

[00:47:36] Well, that's an interesting thing, because when you look at the Hobbit at the chapter of the Hobbit, Bilbo is encountering all of these new things for the first time. Every single new chapter, he catches trolls and elves and orcs and trolls. Yeah. But they reverse the question and they're like, what is this? What is a Hobbit? What is a Hobbit? Like almost every chapter you can find somebody will ask, what is a Hobbit? And more words than I had. It's totally spaced on that. It's all there. It's all there in every single chapter of the Hobbit.

[00:48:06] Oh, man. But he's chosen because Hobbits can. They're very secretive. They can be quiet. You know, they can hide very easily. They can be stealthy. Yeah. Yep. Totally. And then, you know, he shows values beyond that, you know, over time. Thorin finally comes to see his repenting deathbed. Good wins all. Yep. We have gone far afield from Rings of Power season two. Yeah, we have.

[00:48:34] We are just wandering in Middle Earth. I love it. I wouldn't mind a Thorin Ogenschild reference, but that I think. Well, we I think we pretty much like you guys spelled out. We we we summed up. I mean, it was kind of inevitable. We did talk about just so much of stuff that's being implied. That's either from the book or the movie lore is like that's inevitably going to. I'm just glad that they're able to.

[00:49:01] They were able to pull the card of we don't have to have famous people. We can stand on our own two feet. Mm hmm. It's kind of like the Jackson films of, you know, there were many. Unknowns, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Semi knowns. And when you look at all the people who were considering like then unknown, Daniel Craig. Oh, gladiators huge. Let's get Russell Crowe in here is like and I do. Nicolas Cage as Aragorn. Nicolas Cage. What? Yeah.

[00:49:32] Couldn't still couldn't see it. Sean Conner and Gandalf. And that was the funniest one is like he passed on playing Spock's brother in the ill-fated Star Trek five. He and then went on to do Highlander two. And you're like, OK. And so it is so funny. He he passes on Lord of the Rings and being Morpheus in the Matrix and then doesn't like him extraordinary gentlemen. It is so funny. It's like at that point I would have been like, you're Sean freaking Connor. You you just do it, man.

[00:50:00] Everyone wants to see you play you. Yeah, I'm cool. Nobody could have been Gandalf at this point. But yeah, I'm sorry. And I mean, I think that's just it. I think they were kind of doing almost a George Romero is like just.

[00:50:17] Don't overspin on the actors, get Shakespearean people, you know, because most of the budget is going to go to all the expensive camera editing lighting and the other effects we're going to dub and post that are really, really good. And it's still good. It is just like, man is and Caleb Rimbar, Charles Edwards, Shakespearean actor. He was pretty good. All that pathos. Yeah, he was one of those. I'm like, I've seen his face.

[00:50:47] I don't know where, but he. He was in Downton Abbey. Maybe that's okay. So I have seen him and I but he was one of those like man, he is. He's he's not looking at the camera. He is looking at the set. So kudos to everybody who staged him rehearse this with them is like he's got to act outside of this, you know, psychopath in human form. And then he's got to do all these other things like man.

[00:51:17] How do you. And then and again, your character believes in what he's doing, even though it's a terrible move. How do you, you know. Keep our interest the moral grayness that's there of like. He doesn't have a lot of honor, but you know, it's this ego. It's this pride that yeah. Sauron can exploit. Mm hmm. Sees it in a split second. Mm hmm. Yeah. He's the one who chooses to lie.

[00:51:46] And Sauron pulls this like reverse psychology like no. Right. You're gonna lie to Gilgallit. You need me, you need me, you need me. And then he exploits it. He's like, but hey, guess what? You are ready life. So let's just keep going down that road. You know, I didn't speak about him enough because I just love hating him so much. But good is the actor who did play. You know, hello brand. You know, so Charlie Vickers. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:15] He he had the other one. I think deserves an Emmy. He does. The little nuances he tapped into. And he didn't know that Hal Brand was Sarah Sarah for the first episode. Mm hmm. And then they told him, he's like, I can do all this research. Thank you. Kudos to him for. I mean, again, you got to play a human parasite. Kudos to Morphe Clark. I really felt like she had go down to a T instead of.

[00:52:45] I mean, kudos to all these actors. I don't feel like any of them. Great ensemble. It's like, I don't think when Clark came in, she said, I got to channel Cate Blanchett. I can't measure up to that. That's that's a lot to measure. I'm sure the same guy playing Gandalf, same deal. It's like I'm I can't play Ian McKellen. I got to play the character. You know, it's just that's ultimately what you got to do. You you got to play the character. Don't channel the actor because inevitably you're just going to be needlessly compared to whoever originated it.

[00:53:13] You know, it's just play play the character and it helps that this is before they become the badass that they are. So you just just. Go where you're comfortable. Galadriel evolution is super interesting because, you know, it's it's almost like a one off line, but that she was like more rebellious and more warriors. I mean, if they're like, OK, that's what we're going to go with Galadriel.

[00:53:40] I know you see that with like the unfriend, the fan or she does have this little bit of attitude like there was a lot of no, I won't give you any of my hairs like I. I mean, it goes back to even in the movie when you see her saying, you know, oh, this is going to, you know, Frodo, get take that ring from me. You can't stay here. You know, you stay here any longer. I'm going to take that ring from you and it's all going to go to hell in a handbasket.

[00:54:05] So it's just a lot of that same material where she's like, OK, I see the influence it has on me, but I feel like we need to use it. I just don't know how. I think that's really interesting. That little bit we see in the mirror of Galadriel and those little hints of what she could be and the way they use that. It's more Fitzgaladriel.

[00:54:29] I have those like temptations and, you know, they could not no longer distinguish me from the evil I was fighting, like all of that. These these tensions pulling her. Well, kudos to how they framed every elf discussion. I never felt like they were on the same set and they were cheating angles. I never felt like it was a redundant conversation. It's like, well, anyone could tell you what we've already been predicting is like now they're they're all very, very, very, very aware.

[00:54:55] And the only thing worse than an argument is an argument with everybody's very, very bright. Everyone's pretty ingenious. And yet this is like, well, we we got to go to a plan C. What's plan C? I don't know what plan C is. We got to figure it out. And it's just.

[00:55:14] It's mesmerizing, too, because you could go so many ways with it, but no one has a resolution to any of it, because if you don't use it, if you don't, you know, that they this is before they have to learn the hard way and realize, you know, evil just keeps rooting. You got to just keep these rings destroyed forever and ever. And it is interesting just having, you know, this isn't money. This is in politics. This is a ring that has powers. You know, it's it's even Kierdan.

[00:55:44] He's the wisest one they got in their arsenal. Yes. And Kierdan, by the way, I want more in three. Yeah, that all the elves are very well casted. I mean, same same thing with the Elrond actor. I mentioned him before. It's like, don't play this like Hugo Weaving. Just play it like Elrond. You know, and he's another actor who you look at his credits. You're like, I know I've seen his face. And I recently learned. Oh, there you go. Top of the line actors here. So did not know that. Yeah.

[00:56:15] You shall pass. OK, but. But yeah, you are final. So, yeah, you're you're acting has no power here, sir. But now I I just dug all the different arguments is like, OK, but it wasn't just unpleasant is like, OK, so what are we going to do with this? How are the elves going to get split up aside from their principles and everything?

[00:56:43] And well, when are they going to realize? OK, you know, like it at least they were learning pretty early on. And I was glad that Glacier was the one that's like the messenger never made it to Swingborn's village. So no wonder we haven't had reinforcements. Yeah. That's like the reverse you catastrophes. Yeah, it is just it was a lot of playing chicken and then followed by. Is like it was the elephant in the room, really?

[00:57:14] Yeah. Yeah. And nowadays it would just be an email. So it goes back to that parallelist realm of like when we're not in this modern world with our conveniences is like. These things that can play out. Yeah, that's pretty cool. There's all these different things. So they did mention the five wizards, though. I will bring that up. So I'm curious. Last episode. Yeah, there were five of us. So I'm going to be so.

[00:57:43] I'm hoping they show the other free somewhere along the way. Yes. Aaron already mentioned is like, yeah, we we rushed into this. So now this is way off. I can only hope. You really make good use of it. Like I always thought, especially before they even announced this Lord of the Rings animate, there would have been a cool. There could have been a cool Balrog or Wizard origin story.

[00:58:09] You know, if you're not going to if you're going to compromise how they originate here, at least. I don't know, just have some very cool character development, at least. And maybe make good use of their powers instead of just there was only two wizards and one of them turned evil. Yeah. One of them was Obi-Wan, who is like, I see right through you. That's not cool. That's that's the moral complexity, the moral greatness they're playing with. I think there will be a lot more of those like questions.

[00:58:38] I can only hope I'd like to at least see how they form their council before it all banished instead of just, you know, one guy on a throne and all these dimwitted mercenaries. So that was the other thing, too, that was confusing first. You know, I was paying attention. I rewound because I do this with every show I watch. I'm like, I don't have time to rewatch. So I'm going to watch this until it makes sense, you know, and I was like, OK, so those mercs. OK, yeah.

[00:59:10] So they're they're kind of dimwitted. They were kind of definitely remind me of Nazgul. They're like, except minus the ghostly part, but they were definitely disfigured guys who are mercenaries, have no ethics code and how wild how they kind of turned on him. The dark wizard. They're like, no, you're on your own. You said we were hunting a guy who didn't know who he was. Now he's got control of his powers. Now I'm out. You can keep your ridges or better yet.

[00:59:39] We'll take your ridges and we'll flee. Wouldn't it be. It's not one to be underestimated. Yeah. Don't step on his toes. Sorry. Wouldn't it be cool if the dark wizard actually ended up being one of the blue wizards and I'm for it. And the Gandalf, the stranger slash Gandalf has to team up with this other wizard who happens to show up, who is Sadomon the white.

[01:00:07] And they as young friends sort of, you know, they become I'm for it. They team up together. Do we think we're going to see? Do we think we're going to see a Saruman? I think we are. Prediction. Even if we don't, I think there's going to be an implication. Like even if he's in the last episodes, like, let me introduce you to my friend. But yeah, no, I think I can totally see a plot arc like that is like, how do we fight against this guy? You know, he. Yeah. Yeah. If anything, I will give credit to.

[01:00:37] They pretty much got it out of the way. It's like this guy is like, I'm not going with you. I'll listen to you, but I'm not on your team. You know, I mean, I call you the dark wizard. Come on, dude. Not. No. And clearly Gandalf revere Sadomon. Like he says he's the head of my order. He's wise and he's powerful. Like it's not it's only until Sadomon, you know, plays out all of his cards and reveals his betrayal that he realizes like all the guys. He thought he was above it and he wasn't.

[01:01:06] And then next thing you know, he's like, I can play along with this. Somebody's got to die for my riches. So I think I think it would be cool to explore the depths of a Sadomon slash Gandalf teaming up together, you know, start skiing Hutch taking out the bad guys. Absolutely. Like that could be the midway like plot arc where it's like, OK, I got I've got control of my powers now. I got my cane, but I'm not enough. So what do I do?

[01:01:37] You know, and I'd be cool if this these other wizards were spawning up other stuff like I'd be cool if. If they were if they were influencing other guys to fight them or. If there was even a dragon hell, you know, I don't know, I just something it just definitely have some kind of just illustrate the order. Hat just other origins of Miller that that's ultimately what I want.

[01:02:03] You know, this and I felt like season one was trying to is like, OK, let's try and stand on our own ground. Let's it's like this was trying to get world building. Yeah. So now at this point, we got to just show all the different kingdoms and just. I'm not saying it's got to be just action time now, but now we really got to show. More outcomes, we got to show it's the raising of the stakes, you know, it's all got bigger and grander.

[01:02:31] Because we that's the other thing, too. Yeah. The people never complained about the battle because core hounds assigned. They're all earned. They all go somewhere. They all move the story forward. So, yeah. As long as we see some plot progression, I'm not going to bail. I'm just like, OK, but at the same time, I don't want missed opportunities like you guys are saying is like we want something that just shows. How's how the sausage is made, how how the wine is crafted, how.

[01:03:02] Yeah, more gardens blooming. Yes. Yeah, because I think we already know where the elves and dwarves are going. So definitely see a resolution. There is like just show why they go their separate ways and then definitely show more. And Numenor and, you know, the house of Elendil and the way they're building that. So we literally got Narseal being pulled out like frame for frame, like Aragorn with Enduril. Definitely a bit of that. Yeah.

[01:03:32] I mean, I'd be fine if they show some other Duna Dane rangers. That would be cool. Yes. Just they've already hinted a bit at the other wild men and other dark places. But yeah, I'd like to see at least just a few other people just kind of speaking for. That's what Lord of the Rings always did so well. There was someone who had been around long enough who was able to observe and illustrate what's going on.

[01:03:59] Yeah, there's there's a lot with, you know, where the Rohamer is going to get into a little bit. I feel like with the Dunlandings and all these tribes of men that it's because, you know, they want a home, they want land and then they're corruptible to Sauron who they, you know, can see what is desired and exploit that. Yes. There's Harad and all these like some of the, you know, Lord of the Rings Online is like starting to get into.

[01:04:27] But there are all these these kingdoms and stories that you literally just go on forever. Yeah, there's definitely got to be something is like, OK, so when do these guys flee to? Yeah. The Roherum and Gondor and all that other stuff. And they did show some of the eagles. It would be kind of cool to see how Gandalf, you know, and the elves have an influence on the Grey Heavens and the eagles. Like that would be cool.

[01:04:56] How the stranger Gandalf becomes friends with Gwyndor. Yeah, definitely. Hey, little moth. Go get my friend. A little moth would be cool to definitely just show what is he doing now besides relying on luck to just fine tune his powers a little more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, maybe that'll be his arc. I hope so. With Gandalf, Rome was built in a day. I don't know. I'm just kidding.

[01:05:25] It would be cool to definitely see more of these role reversals. But and I mean, we've already seen it enough from all the evil is like, OK, we already see that Sauron does the you know, he plays mind games and reverse psychology is like I now now we got to see the heroes do their best comebacks. You can only suffer so much, you know, you got to.

[01:05:49] But if anything, when we inevitably get to all the other stuff and all the other kingdoms is like we at least want to just see. I guess just from the onset, like who's no longer welcome, who's going to start the rebellions and who's going to find their purpose, you know, who later goes on to join the inevitably filled elf and human standoff against Sauron's forces. You know, just definitely build up that first fellowship. You know.

[01:06:21] Yeah, I the last science. I think it is all building. I've heard theories that will all end with the seal doors death, which will. Which I think is an amazing art, but I will cry. I can see that. Or that would be interesting because, yeah, it's like they want to honor the movie, especially what you see in the first act of fellowship with that flashback.

[01:06:45] So, yeah, I mean, I can see them even going so far as, you know, as like, here's what he's like before, you know, marching into battle something. I don't know, but there's an arc. That's another arc I think will happen. It's all I don't I don't think they're to the point of like screw the movie that we're going to do our own thing. And I think that's why they picked who they picked. It wasn't anyone with any disdain or any rivalries like it's going to give it our best shot. Yeah. Yeah, we love it.

[01:07:14] You kind of have to. You can't just be like, oh, worry about the visuals and someone who can say all the exposition very well is like, no, you got a really, really, really. You know how to craft this world. Yeah. Again, I think there are those strange choices that make me have to question my belief, which is not Tolkien and I never have to do it. So, but for what is realistic with what they're doing. Mm hmm. It's understandable. Yeah.

[01:07:44] One thing I've been working about thinking about the I'm obsessed with the two trees. Mm hmm. But just the way like. The light resonates and shows up in these different places through the ages. Yeah. The Mithril. Do I understand that correctly? It was a sapling of one of them. You know, with the battle with the Balrog. And then it went down to the mountain. Yeah. So I think that is super interesting how that is tied in because.

[01:08:14] Yeah. Like Tolkien literally says, you know, in which the all the tales of the elder days are woven with these two trees. Right. Right. And literally just like that's how powerful that light is that they can just put a little bit of this thing that is derived that like had that light in it. And this ring becomes magic. That they did kind of have a good concept is like, OK, so here's how they craft it. It's not just, you know, mining.

[01:08:42] It's not just putting iron and striking it with the hammers. Like there's all these other variables. Yeah. We're actually. Yeah. Measuring. And then Sauron's blood for the men who are most corruptible. That is an interesting angle. Oh, totally. I. I applaud him for doing that because. I mean, just to even just think that out storyboard that visually show it to us. Yeah. I mean, I will always.

[01:09:10] I mean, Aaron, you were hitting back on it earlier on fantasy and you were implying as well. Catherine is like when you are fantasy, you don't just imply you show you. You embrace. And so that's. And consistency of reality. I always go back to unfairly stories. I love it. So it's funny how they inspired movies like Star Wars and Dragon Slayer. And then finally, that was an eye in an ironic twist.

[01:09:38] That's what made the studio say, OK, now we can finally adapt something like Lord of the Rings. And it's like, well, that's just it. You have to. You have to show you can. Go beyond just regardless of being on time on budget, you also have to show I have a vision. Here's how it's showing. Everything is illustrating what you want. You're going. That's brilliant. That's awesome. But you're also showing.

[01:10:07] I mean, this is how you have to show it like this is how it's been storyboarded. And shot. So there's so many variables. And it really honestly even goes back to even the meetings. It's like, is everyone on the same page? Or am I just talking to a brick wall here? You know, am I? Is this, you know? And I think this is what has plagued so many people even adapting anything from other books to anime.

[01:10:33] This is like, it's like, instead of worrying about how similar it is to something is like here. Here is just like the synopsis. Here's why it appeals to people. And here's why it'd be a pretty cool trip to the movies. But I mean, and kudos to them deciding it had to be a show. It's like. Yeah. Yeah. If the Silmarillion ever does get adapted, I do think series. Maybe even a big series. Yeah.

[01:11:03] Similar reason of like. Imagine trying to condense that into even three hours. I think you could do a 10 episode arc. You would definitely need someone who not only has experience with the genre, but you would also need someone who just. Would make use of every episode, you know, it couldn't. I wouldn't want to have it be just a Netflix thing and then all whoopty doo you've been canceled. Yeah, you would want to have it be a very cool mini series is like. Yeah.

[01:11:35] Yeah. Yeah. You could sort of segment it in certain ways of like fall of Gondolin. They're in a movie. And that if you want to. Yeah. If you want to do an anthology, I'd be cool with that, too. That might be even more preferred. So if you don't care for that episode, you might like the other one, which. Adapts this notion. You know. This concept. All very speculative at this point, because fair use. What is it? 20, 30 something. When that kicks.

[01:12:04] When legally, unless a token state changes their token state changes their mind. 2070. Jeez. Copyright expiration or whatever. We'll be dead by then. Yeah. 20. Within my lifetime, I hope. 20. 70. I mean. Hopefully they can work out meet them halfway. The Spielberg have to come in here. Come on. Yeah.

[01:12:33] Maybe Amazon with their like fleet of lawyers. Amazon. I will give you the world. Very, very high paying lawyers. They just like slowly chip away. Like, okay, we use Anatar. Can we use this much? Yeah. It's like a little kid just like pulling out like parrots. How much do you really want for it? Yeah. Oh, man. Fun stuff. I want, I want that a call about though within my life. So I'm telling you. We got to do it. Amazing.

[01:13:04] Would be great. All right. Again, this has been an epic deal. Far ranging. Has been very far ranging, but definitely. We definitely wandered. Not, not all those who wander are lost though. So. Mm-hmm. We had five different side quests, but overall it was a big. Cool journey. Look for this. All connects. So it all works. Yes. Look for this in March during monkey's paw week. And.

[01:13:34] Oh, okay. I was wondering. I was wondering. During other stuff like Twilight Zone. Okay. What a concept. Nice. Well, we'll split it up into our favorite moments too. So that'll be cool. Um. Uh. But, uh, where, where can we see you find you guys on the interwebs? Yes. Go ahead, Catherine. Go ahead. No. You go first. You go first.

[01:14:01] I am KB one moves at on Instagram. Uh, because I am a dancer and slowly integrating more token things, uh, art and bringing together dance and token things on there. You go. With bear mccreary music, of course. Um, on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, potentially moving to blue sky. If that was the announcement.

[01:14:30] I'll see you there. Um, yeah, that's basically it. I feel like, you know, if I go on tick tock, I'm like, who are these kids and where am I on? So I've never, never jumped in there. Okay. Um, yeah. So, um, come wander middle earth with me on the lore of the rings podcast. You can find me at rings podcast.com. There you can find, you can subscribe to the Lord of the rings podcast there.

[01:14:59] You can find me on all the socials. You could send me an email if you want to. Um, but yeah, I do weekly, weekly episodes, exploring tokens, writings, everything from the similar alien to on fairy stories to the Hobbit to the Lord of the rings. Right now I've been taking the fellowship of the ring about five pages. Every episode.

[01:15:20] And so I do about five pages a week and just kind of breaking those down and pulling out different themes and pointing out details that most people will miss connecting it back to the lore. And so, yeah, come wander with me at rings podcast.com. Um, in professor Olkins, uh, Olson's footsteps there. I love it. Yeah, exactly. Uh, I will definitely have to jump on that. Yes. Yeah. Really delightful show.

[01:15:47] I discovered it because the who would win podcast was from who would win. Yeah. It's still going on and they've represented Gandalf on the show very well. And it's so funny. They've, they've had to argue which version of Gandalf are you using is like, Oh, oh yeah, that's all. Gandalf the gray and white are the same thing, but I will evolve to the white if you're going to go there. Yeah. Uh, in a versus match. So if they're passing through shadow and getting sent back by the Valar. Oh man.

[01:16:16] Uh, and it's also just, uh, just a delight, just visually walking through a fictional world that has a relation. And you have to remind people is like, this is what Tolkien conceived as a, you know, uh, before modern day, uh, society is like, this was a better version of the.

[01:16:39] He said he wasn't quite sure it could ever come to dramatic adaptation, but he was also in his time when those tools were a little more limited. Well, and who knows what barriers he was having to encounter in the book selling room. Yeah. Yep. Yep. I'm sure we could go on for hours more. Yeah. Yeah. No, you guys have been a delight and I'll let you get to bed, but, uh, uh, absolutely. Uh, uh, follow them on the web.

[01:17:09] Everybody Catherine Boland and Aaron, they're Matt on lower the rings. And this was, this was as epic as we could assume talking about epic. Yes. TV adaptations. Uh, well, thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you everybody. Absolutely. Uh, have fun going down the rabbit hole. Just make sure about rug is not in it. Don't get lost. Don't get lost. No, no, no, no. Put dwarves on my Quaker roads.

[01:17:36] I'm a little ultra-religion. I'm a little bit gruff with billy goats. I'm disconcertingly real. I might be fictional. I'm a Middle East country. Earth mountain troll. I offer camel sex. If I stay out till the sun comes up, then I turn to stone and die.

[01:18:09] Secular control. I bash those freaking wood elves with a club like a whack-a-mole. Like me, your porous dirt. Or a little earth mountain troll. Sleeve flat top pot. Hot a job at hot dwarf on a stick. Just to dress in style.

[01:18:49] My wife, I'll Ford of old. Let me stone you. We'll return after these messages.

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