Interview with TV Sitcom-Cartoon Writer & Author Doug Molitor

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[00:01:01] Ever since I can remember, I used to write stories back in, you know, first and second grade, you know, just my pencil in my hand. They were there rather simple, but I got into it. And I grew up like a TV movie kid. I was always fascinated by that stuff. And whenever I saw a movie that I really liked, like I saw Dracula.

[00:01:19] So I had to read the original by Bram Stoker and I saw The Time Machine. So I had to read the H.G. Wells. And that sort of got me into reading all the sci fi authors that I wound up enjoying, including living ones like Ray Bradbury. Nice. He used to come to our library all the time and do readings. So that was where I got the bug. Perfect. So you've just heard a segment there, gang. We have screenwriter and author Doug Molitor on the show.

[00:01:46] And we were just going back and forward. There was like, yeah, we've got to do an episode together. We just love having different creatives on and let them explain their process, just give some respect, learn, promote the projects. And, you know, Doug was pretty out of it. I want to go beyond just the fact that I've been a multi episode champion of Jeopardy. It was like that, although that is a cool feat, but well, that was cool. It was cool to do. And I had a lot of fun on Jeopardy over the years.

[00:02:12] You've done a lot of obscure shows as well as just very underrated, just like syndicated material. But it's just interesting when you gleam onto this. And but I guarantee you there's an audience for something out there because they still do syndicated shows back and forth. But it's just like you just don't always see it like straight up or heavily promoted. It's just but networks will always have a filler material.

[00:02:42] And so, you know, even if the execution isn't great, a credit's a credit. And you can always just be saying, hey, I did something that family could watch or that was straightforward entertainment. And would you say you consider yourself a pulp kind of author? I would say I appreciate pulp. I think I think really well written pulp is is nothing to be ashamed of. It's it's it's it's my among my favorite things to read.

[00:03:09] I would say that, you know, it's it's it's there's a lot of imagination. And if you're really heavy on imagination, animation writing is probably where you want to be. It's I started out as a live action writer, but I quickly slid into animation just because there was more opportunity. Also, there was a writer strike on at the time. And by the time the strike was over, I was an animation writer.

[00:03:33] So did J. Michael Straczynski and some of those other cool cats is like, yeah, you you try every lane that is available and you stand out regardless of it. Just like an actor is like I can be a voice actor or I can be a video game actor. I can be motion capture or theater actor. Yeah, there's there's never not an avenue. We're was your family supported of you getting into entertainment because it's backtracking as supportive as they could be.

[00:04:01] I used to make like a home movies and we had like eight millimeter cameras back then and we do silent epics. You know, we did a we did a Roman epic and we did a Western and a jungle movie and all this stuff. So we had a lot of fun, you know, just making these backyard movies. My mom was making costumes, you know, and my dad was driving us wherever we needed to go to to shoot. So it was not unlike Steven Spielberg. I grew up movies from a very young age. That's awesome.

[00:04:30] And you were born in L.A. in the 50s. Yes, in Altadena, most to the point, which unfortunately burned about a year, a year and a half ago. And but yeah, that it was a wonderful time to grow up in, especially if you love movies, because there's a lot of just very footage. We're a lot of nice photogenic sites in Altadena that we used like crazy. That's neat. And so you had the support, you had a solid upbringing.

[00:05:02] But what did you want to do before you got into that? Did you have like three other things that you were trying out as a major or what have you? Well, I was I was always a writer and I was always writing on comedy shows. We used to have a pair of radio comics here in L.A. called Loman and Barkley, and that was actually my first sale to television was was selling to them. And that was, you know, just comedy and music. And I really got into it.

[00:05:31] But my big interests were always comedy and sci fi. And I always tried to find a way to combine them. Yes. And you have stated before in interviews how as like you love doing both avenues, it keeps it fresh, keeps it new and everything. But do you have kind of a preference, you know, comedy or sci fi horror or I will always have? There'll always be comedy in anything I write that just the way my mind operates.

[00:06:00] If I may, this is what I work on nowadays. Oh, there we go. There we go. I got it on Jeopardy. I didn't get my book plug out in time. And so I lost the the chance to promote an audience of nine million. So even though you may have less than nine million, it's it's good. This is the one, by the way, that you can get a free Kindle e-book up.

[00:06:24] Yes, there's a free Kindle e-book for the first because you want to get them hooked on the heroin. Yes. And that's spelled with an E, by the way. Yes. Different kind of hero. But so who are your favorite producers to sell scripts to initially? Because you did a lot of syndicated shows, you know, you've done sliders done.

[00:06:52] And people forget there was an FX show. And I think I would casually see reruns of that on Syfy channel. That was a fun show to do. They actually brought back Carrie Ann Moss, who had left the show because I had a great part for her. So they brought her back as a guest star on that one. Yeah, I love doing all those shows. I loved I even did a Western once. It was called Lucky Luke. And it was produced by Terence Hill, who was like a spaghetti spaghetti Western star. Great guy. Wanted to be a star in America.

[00:07:21] So I wrote a couple of well, I wrote one episode and I rewrote a couple of others. They unfortunately canceled the show at around episode 12. So we'll we'll never know how Lucky Luke would have done in syndication. But yeah, it pops up. I see it somewhere or I'll get a I'll get a residual of like five cents for my little bit role in it. So neat. It's still playing overseas. But I mean, let's get to the nitty gritty.

[00:07:47] You know, like there is still heavy fan bases for totally spies, you know, even the Bill and Ted cartoon. But I mean, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, that's no small feat. Young Hercules has been getting some reappraisal because that was one of Ryan Gosling's first roles. I tell people I wrote for Ryan Gosling and they go, oh, really? Yeah. I'm praying on that. Well, Transformers Rescue Bots, original Ninja Turtles is like X-Men Evolution is like.

[00:08:16] But you've hit some very obscure ones, but they're not the most obscure. I've done about 250 episodes of animation. So, yeah, there's some shows I guarantee you you've never heard of. I guarantee you. Yes, you are completely correct. I I never saw James Bond, Jr. I did see I forgot that there was a Free Willy cartoon. But yeah, there's Sonic the Hedgehog in the 90s. I remember the 2000s one.

[00:08:42] But but I mean, obviously, if James was on here right now, he'd be geeking out and asking tons of questions about sledgehammer. So I'll ask for them. But like, how do you prefer? Live action comedy versus animated comedy? Or is it really kind of just you get notes and you just overall still know the beats in your heads? Here's some drama here. Here's some resolution here. And here's some buildup.

[00:09:07] If if you like at one point I wanted to direct and I still think that would be a lot of fun, although I'm getting up that early anymore. But if you if you like to direct, if you like the idea of creating a visual scheme for your story, you can actually do that better in animation than in live action. Yes.

[00:09:30] Not just because all the extra notes you get for in live action, but because there's physical constraints, there's monetary constraints, you know, you can summon up an army of zombies or, you know, a planet of dinosaurs, anything you want in animation. And they like you to like call the shots, especially if you're writing for comedy. So you'll if you need a close up and then cutting to a long shot that reveals something else that's funny, you can do that.

[00:09:56] You can direct on the page in animation and they don't encourage that in live action. Yes. And writers rooms, you know, they can always vary. There's been a lot of great shows which have come under fire in recent years because people were given blunt interviews saying, hey, you know, we liked. You know what we did on the show, but like working on it. Have you always had a pretty healthy writers room? No toxicity. Everyone just politely disagrees and moves on with what they are allowed to do.

[00:10:27] I would say so. I mean, in the writers rooms I've been in the first writers room I was ever in an old man walked up to me and he says, do you remember the Jack Benny show? I said, do I remember Benny? I mean, and he says, he says, well, he says, I was the guy who wrote the joke when the robber said your money or your life. And then there was the longest pause in radio history while the audience just screened with laughter.

[00:10:50] And then finally, Jack said, and the crook says, well, and Benny says, I'm thinking, I'm thinking. Yeah. And the guy left. His name was Mill Josephsberg. And he says, you're the only one who got that right. Everybody else says I'm thinking it over. But the line was, I'm thinking, I'm thinking. I love that. I had fun in writers rooms, but you don't get that many writers rooms in animation. It's usually, unless you're writing for, you know, the Simpsons family guy, something like that. Obviously that's, that's written like a sitcom.

[00:11:19] So it was very much like Star Trek or sliders in your case, where it's like, okay, I'm giving it. They're going to reconfigure a few things to connect A and B if they don't like one thing, but it's overall your vision that you contributed. Yeah. That's it. Hopefully. And in the best circumstances. Yes. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of a shame to remind people they're used. We're so spoiled on options now. It's like, yeah, but there was no shortage in the eighties or nineties either.

[00:11:47] Like people were trying so many variety shows, cartoon hours and everything. Adventure Inc. Kind of gets some reappraisal because the DVD took forever to come out. But people are big fans of Stevie D'Souza and his contributions to eighties cinema. Uh, when you've gotten into sci-fi and adventure stuff. Uh, has that been a little more difficult for you? Because it's like everyone likes it, but it's so hard to kind of get it wrapped up in 40 minutes. Yeah.

[00:12:16] I don't know that it's, it's harder to write. I think it's harder to get into the room to do the writing, but if you can, if you can give them a story they want to see, then, then that's, that's how you, uh, you know, that, that's how you make the sale and how you get recommended for the next job. My career though, I, I, I tended to land on shows that were in their first and only season or in their second and last season. So what I was really hoping to do was to land on a star Trek or something like that, that had legs. And I knew it was going to be around for a few seasons.

[00:12:46] More consistent. And those were harder to get to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, do you think it's just that the ones who otherwise would be hiring, they're already trying to get it together and they just kind of pull a Taylor Sheridan where they're like, forget it. I'll just do it all myself. Or. I don't think, I mean, I know in animation, there were a number of producers who would do that, but, uh, I, in live action, I don't think you can really get, you can be like that.

[00:13:15] I mean, there are, there are certain creators who were just famous for everything goes through the, the, the, the phrase used to be back when we use typewriters. It all goes through my typewriter before it goes to the studio. So, uh, there are creators who of course were, were tremendously energetic and, and very focused on getting what they want. So they would, they would rewrite you fair to a fairly well.

[00:13:37] But, um, I think that the, the best shows are ones where people were sort of encouraged to get the notes and then just, you know, do the story the best they could. And, and hopefully, hopefully everybody liked it. Uh, that's very unique. Uh, so you've fortunately been able to be the story editor, two big ones, you know, happily ever after, you know, that is still rebroadcast on HBO. That was there was fun show attempt at an animated anthology and then captain planet.

[00:14:05] That was a big deal for TBS as well as, and I had no idea there was a nineties wizard of Oz cartoon. I thought I knew everything about us, but, uh, you know, Carmen San Diego and captain planet. Uh, those were big deals in the nineties cause you know, Carmen Sandiego, you know, it was very much like Sesame street where we're going to take you on an adventure, but then we're also going to have some teaching. Uh, segments.

[00:14:27] And, you know, I'm sure my sister had plenty of the computer games growing up, but I like, uh, did it, have you ever been able to reintroduce this to, uh, friends and family, other relatives? You're like, I did that. You know, I got, you know, it's funny. My, my daughter was, was never into, I mean, the kind of cartoon she liked were the old classics, the Scooby Doos stuff that had been produced before she was born and, and, uh, the Warner brothers stuff. Uh, the sci-fi stuff.

[00:14:55] It wasn't quite her, her metier, but she loves comedy. And then in fact, she's now a, a, a creative executive in Hollywood. Oh, that's neat. And producing comedy. So, uh, I, I think I, I steered her on the right course, at least for what she was interested in. Would, would you say that she was just watching stuff and she was already making her notes? Here's what I want to see more of. Here's what I don't want to see more of. But she, well, she was a voracious consumer of TV. I mean, she loved Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[00:15:25] Oh, sweet. Uh, Law and Order SVU. I mean, she had, she had quite an eclectic and, and wide ranging tastes. But the thing that I, I really wanted to do was introduce her to, to old movies that, that her generation usually didn't see. So I would take her to go see, uh, Buster Keaton in, in, uh, in the general. And. Oh, sweet. It's a great story about that. It was, we were sitting there watching this movie. She's like four years old and she can't really read the titles yet.

[00:15:52] And the first movie one week is about Buster is puts together a prefab house and his rival to who's angry that he, that he married his girl, uh, uh, changes all the numbers on the boxes. So Buster puts together this impossibly crazy house, which, you know, the stairways come out over nowhere. And then you fall on the ground and dear, and I'm explaining all this. And there's an old lady sitting in front of us keeps going like this, you know, I can't talk during a silent movie.

[00:16:20] I can't explain the titles and they're just laughing and laughing. The lights come up before the feature. And she turns and says, what's your daughter's name? I said, Deirdre. And she says, how old is she? I said, she's four. And she said, Deirdre, how'd you like the movie? Oh, it was so funny. I laughed so hard. And she goes, well, my name is Eleanor Keaton. And I'm so glad you'd like my husband's movie. Oh man. Only in LA. Only, only at any rare screening is like, yeah, it's not even.

[00:16:51] I don't know how we got behind her, but that was, that was the one I always treasure. How cool that she was enamored by a following generation. And she made time for that instead of saying, shut up kid. Or yeah, sure. You know, it's like, no, that's cool. It's like, no, no, she, she, I think I, I, I, the other thing I remember taking her to and, and, and years later, she had friends who want, got together for horror movies. And when it was her time to host, she picked Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein. Man. Which of course was my favorite.

[00:17:20] And the thing that I really respected about it was that she said before the movie, she also showed them who's on first because otherwise they wouldn't know who Abbott and Costello were. That's neat. And. Uh, so you grew up on those like many did and they're still timeless. They're still very, very good and what have you. But, uh, did you, uh, would you say you, you work some of those into the kinds of different physical gags?

[00:17:51] Okay. Perfect. The, the, the, at Laurel and Hardy, the Marx brothers, WC fields. I mean, all of that stuff was sort of like my comedy college. And I also. It is. James Thurber and Dorothy Parker and Robert Benchley. I love Benchley. Uh, all of that stuff that, that happened just before I was born, sort of informed my comedy along with, you know, Monty Python, Saturday Night Live, all the stuff that I was watching as, as a young person.

[00:18:17] But I also, I knew the comedy, you know, giants from way back. And I think if you know them, you have an advantage because they had, they knew about storytelling. They knew about, you know, how to set up a gag, how to, how to create, how to use character to create a gag. And I think the more that people know about the classic comedies and are really the classic dramas too, the better they'll be at writing modern drama because they'll, they'll understand. Oh yeah, that's how this works. That's how you get this effect.

[00:18:46] Uh, and were you always really good just going back before you develop your craft? Uh, just, uh, you already majored in English. Uh, did you, were you, did you just have some kick-ass papers you were just very proud of for teachers? I don't know that I blew anybody away with my scholarship in, in English, but I, I did love reading and, and there were certain writers that I just keyed into, you know, like, like, like Bradbury, like, like, uh, eventually people like that.

[00:19:12] So I think it gave me a slightly different voice than a lot of the people I was competing with for jobs. Uh, I, I, uh, you know, sometimes you'd go in and you'd pitch something and just, and they'd say, Oh, that's a great idea. And you go, well, that's, that's the plot of just live at Oxford. You know, one character gets hit on the head and becomes a genius. And that's the, and I used that story on, on a, um, what was that for? Um, it was, it was on a Sonic Sonic, the Hedgehog.

[00:19:39] We got, we came in, but that was just a Stan Laurel gag updated 50 years. Oh, and you have done some deep, deep cuts. Like these are the kinds of stuff like for years since I can remember back as far as Oh six, like there was always a CGI cartoon syndicated on like an NBC channel or ABC first thing in the morning. And you've done plenty of Fox kids type stuff as well.

[00:20:03] But, uh, I'm sure you have to be getting some residuals for penguins of Madagascar. You know, that was a big, that was a big cartoon. Are you sure about that? I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. Maybe not, but it's a big cartoon. You know, I've got my, one of my eight cent residual checks for a sliders. I wish I could, I wish I had it to put up. I think I left it in my car. That was interesting. I carry that around just to, to impress people. I'm still making money off that 30 year old show. Uh, yeah.

[00:20:32] And it's now on Peacock. So, I mean, yeah, it was interesting to revisit because it's like, Oh, okay. And, uh, but yeah, I mean, and you, you, you've been part of the Hot Wheels family and you've been part of, I've definitely seen parts of Cody Kapow and some of those other ones is like, yeah, those, those are always like on and like four in the morning on some universal own channel is like, they're just always doing just that.

[00:20:59] And, uh, but have you ever been on a show without naming names where he's like, I like what I contributed. Not so crazy about the forced animation style or Hey, set your expectations to, you know, it's for four year olds. If you worked for Deke and I worked for Deke a lot, uh, you, you kind of had to, to understand that this was not going to be Disney animation, not even Disney TV animation. Um, but on the other hand, you had a freedom. You didn't have a Disney where you could do like offbeat stuff.

[00:21:29] Um, I remember once on, on, uh, I got a lot of trouble with, uh, uh, the producers of, of Captain Planet because we had done second season, this story editor. And I had a story, I I'd done a million stories about, you know, vanishing species and pollution and, and ozone holes and all this. And we, we'd hit all the big topics, but I had been reading about, um, about, uh, in, in, in the middle East, how kids are basically, you know, the kids who were Palestinian and the

[00:21:58] kids who were Israeli are sort of raised to think of the other as, Oh, this is my enemy. So I wanted to do one show where one of the, our eco villains was like trying to get these two people to, you know, to use nuclear weapons on each other. I don't know how they, I thought I would get away with this, but they, they came back and they said, you can't do this show because it makes it sound like you're, you're, you're blaming the people in the middle East for the middle East. And I'm thinking, well, yeah, that's the point. But I said, no, no, no, no, it's, it, this could happen anyway. This could be in Belfast.

[00:22:28] This could be in South Africa. And they said, okay, make it all three of those. And I went, oh, shmuck. Because now I had to write like, you know, the, the, each of the planet tears, plus there were two people on each side. So we had like six characters, guest characters, plus captain planet, plus Gaia, plus the five planet. It was, it was just, I was amazed that we got any story points in there, but it, uh, the thing that made the story infamous was that they hired actors who didn't really know how to do a Belfast accent.

[00:22:57] If there's one thing that's going to get people in Belfast pissed off, it's the wrong kind of accent. So, um, apparently it was banned for a while in Northern Ireland. Yeah. I'm not sure if it's the accent or, or the perceived condescension, but it was just someone read. I will point out though, that we haven't heard a lot of trouble from Northern Ireland or South Africa. If they'd let me do the whole show about the Middle East, we might not have a solution in

[00:23:24] Northern Ireland and, uh, Hey, yeah. Any attention is a good attention. Sometimes. Um, that's right. We'll return after these messages.

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[00:25:29] important happening in the outside world and debate fictional battles between characters from comics, movies, and video games. We got a new show every week and almost always am I the winner. Yeah, not true, Ray. In the past, we've discussed such matches as Captain America versus Darth Vader, Solid Snake versus the Iron Giant, classic matchups like Robocop versus Terminator, and even the Muppets versus Sesame Street. That one was crazy. So if you're a fan of geek culture and love a spirited debate, check out the Who Would

[00:25:58] Win show wherever you get your podcasts or check us out at who would win show dot com. And plus you were writing with what you're motivated by. Have you ever been on just stuff where it's just like, yeah, you know, I I didn't work on the main show you know me from, but I did do the other animated companion piece. I mean, you can say I was I didn't work on Ripley's Blue or not or Sabrina, but I did the animated companions because those were a thing people just wanted if they didn't want to pay

[00:26:27] for more seasons. They're like, yeah, just let's have a cartoon show that's for the kid version. So the kid can be exposed to what the adults are looking at. You know, I don't know that I ever worked on on a companion piece. I did do I think six Ripley's Believe It or Not. No, I think it was just four. That was a friend of mine. Michael O'Mahony worked in you worked out of Paris a lot and that was a French show. So I wrote it all in English and then they translated into French.

[00:26:55] And I don't know if they re translated it back into English or whether they just use my original script for the American market. Hey, that's still fun. Got to be fun. It's like you've seen my stuff somewhere or another. I definitely have seen gadget in the gadget teenies. I don't know how, but I keep track of stuff. I watched and was like, yeah, that was on on mornings. And I was like, yeah, that's a Spectre gadget. I had they put me through the mill on gadget.

[00:27:23] He, um, Bob Einstein, of course, was was one of the, uh, the creative people involved. And they gave me a very bare bones, um, uh, outline to fill in. And at one point I thought, well, I need to give some business to these two, uh, these two, uh, henchmen of the villain. So I just gave them a little, uh, routine bag where they're going back and forth. And I just thought that'd be interesting. And then Bob Einstein, who we all used to know as super Dave, uh, on, on cable. Yeah.

[00:27:50] He gets to this new person and he goes, what? I said, well, I was just trying to give the two guys some, some business. And he's just, we don't need it. So, and he was like that in a lot of those, but you know, he knew what he wanted. And, and, uh, you know, this guy's a brilliant comedian. When I, what am I going to say to Albert Einstein's brother? Yeah. And deep cut though.

[00:28:18] And, uh, have you ever been just, uh, slightly annoyed when you're trying to find like examples of your work for like a reel and was like, I can't get any of these on DVD. I just got to find clips and make them compilation. You know, I've, I, I, I probably should have, but I never really considered trying to put together a reel of my stuff. The closest I came was when I worked on sliders. I told, uh, uh, I told Jerry that, that he really ought to use our episode or my episode

[00:28:46] for his reel, because in it, he played three different characters. He played Quinn and then he played the, the other world's Quinn, who was a brilliant scientist, but was blinded. And then he also played his, his clone in that world who was going to be used for spare parts. So that, that was, uh, that one I would like to have seen as my, as my reel. Cause we did have some fun with, with him playing all three parts. Yeah. That's neat. And, uh, you'll love this though.

[00:29:13] Like, uh, my pal, John, he, he's played some video games, but doesn't really make time for it. But growing up, his only knowledge of Sonic was the nineties J. J white cartoon. Oh, great. Right. Urkel. Yeah. Voiced. He was like, that was his version of Robotnik and Sonic that he knew. So, and. Well, did, did he see the ABC version, which was more straightforward or did he see the syndicated version that was. He, he definitely saw the one with Urkel. So I. Oh no.

[00:29:40] Urkel did the voice on both, but for some reason, the, and the syndicated adventures of Sonic was just, we, we just did bizarre stuff. I, I told you about the Laurel and Hardy gag we did, but there was one where Sonic ran for office and, and we were taking off on, on, uh, H Ross Perot. Now there's, there's a brilliant idea. I would make a joke about a third party candidate who in 30 years, no one will know. I can. Ross Perot. I'm pretty sure he saw both just cause it was just.

[00:30:09] Well, you can Google him, but. But yeah. Ross Perot. So, but yeah, it's. It is. That was the thing. Those are two very different shows. The, the, the, the network Sonic, the ABC Sonic and the syndicated Sonic was just wild and crazy. Yeah. And. Uh, I totally, you know, most people forget there was nineties. He, man, they often just remember. Yeah. There was a two thousands one we didn't watch. So, but I definitely saw some of the old juice growing up and I was, it was like, it was kind of like.

[00:30:37] The animation was very similar to a freak of the way where it was like, interesting. Yes. And we're taking a off color, you know, live action character and we're putting him in animated form. And so given how you've done so much tie in material, were you ever trying to just, was there ever like, uh, uh, established property where you're like, I want to be on this one just cause I know I'm a super fan. I'm going to give it my all in that.

[00:31:04] The very first show I ever wrote for was sledgehammer. And, uh, I did what, what you, you, you should never do, which was, I got ahold of the pilot and I laughed my ass off and Alan Spencer's a very funny guy. And I said, I bet you, I can write an episode of this that he'll like. So I wrote a spec episode for the show. I was trying to sell. This is an absolute no, no. And people had told me this, but I'm sure he'll like this. And he brought me in and he says, I can't shoot this.

[00:31:33] He says, you, you've written an epic movie here, but why don't you pitch me some other ideas? So that became, that was my first, uh, sale to TV. And it was because I just knew I could tell this, this show was going to be something we'd be talking about 30 years later. It was that clever and that, and that groundbreaking. It was very naked gunnish. It was just that same kind of just met flip a genre and just lampoon it and just have very nutty characters. You can't stop the fun at.

[00:32:00] Um, well, so that's neat that you got a little ballsy though. You're just like, yeah, you know, I just gotta say this. I could just try this out. Even though everyone's like, I was too dumb to, to, to be smart and it worked. Oh, Hey. And given how you've done some that were already pre-established, you know, video games, you know, like Carmen San Diego, they were doing games at the same time as the cartoon and you had other stuff like make a man.

[00:32:29] Did you ever have notes from third party developers where you're like, well, that goes against what the main head show runners telling me, what do I do? I'm trying to remember if we had any notes from, from the game developers. I think in overall, whenever you did a show, those from a video game, they, they, they gave you a very detailed Bible of what the characters would do. So you were already fairly constricted, um, as, as far as what you wanted to do with them. Um, that's neat.

[00:32:57] Cause no, I, I think in, in the main, they were just looking for good stories that use their characters. And as long as you didn't completely violate their, their universe, they were happy. No, that's neat. Cause I see so many stories all the time where sometimes it's just people with their imagination isn't growing. And other times it's like, yeah, just take this as a challenge. And just now that you know, the do's and don'ts just go for it. You can just make a list of what you want to do and contribute to the show.

[00:33:23] And just, uh, have you ever had a pitch that just killed or is like, you just wrote a letter or send an email and the show runner was like, Oh, please do that. That I can't say that better than you. Well, the, I, the, the, the lucky Luke show that I worked on actually, I had the most fun. I had a bunch of different pitches for them and I could, I could tell they weren't landing. And I finally had my last pitch, which was a, a, a ghost episode called the ghost train. And, um, I pitched that one.

[00:33:53] And, and at the end we revealed that, you know, the, the, the girl who had, who, whose father had died in this terrible train wreck had staged all of the ghost stuff in order to make the bad guy confess. And I could tell it wasn't landing. So I just said, and then at the end she disappears because she was a ghost all along. And they go, that's great. Write that one. And then that got a lot of work out of lucky Luke after that. That had to be hard to read the room on that. You're just like, you're just like, you're getting all this. Hmm. Hmm. Just silence. You're like, I haven't hit them.

[00:34:23] And then the kill the punchline. Yeah. It's it's, you know, you can never say die. You gotta, you gotta go down swinging. You'll live with a red if you don't pitch it. And at the same time, yeah. It's like, ah, you just don't get, have you ever had that too? Where it's just like, I, Oh yeah. If I was on restraint, I'd say you guys are just hating on every cool idea. I'm coming up with it. I can't say that. I may have mentioned this.

[00:34:48] I may have mentioned this item, but, um, the way this started was as a TV pilot and I pitched it at Universal. And, uh, I, you know, I went into, you know, how the stories would work and, you know, here's the villain. Here's the, the hero and the heroine. And they're, they're an odd couple. They're fish out of water type comedy. And, and I had all this whole pitch going on at the end of it. The executive looked at me and she said, well, time travel movies don't make any money.

[00:35:15] Oh, I said, what about back to the future? And she says, she's well, that, that, that's not about time travel. That's about family. Oh my goodness. And I said, if, if, if it weren't for time travel back to the future would be about incest. And that did not go over well. I, I thought I was being funny, but it just is hysterical. Oh, well, how about, how about this? It can be both. It's both a family movie and it's a time travel.

[00:35:43] But yeah, I mean, it struck me as funny that she didn't really seem to understand just how, how, um, uh, what's the word I want? Disruptive or, or in other words, the, the basic idea of Marty being attracted, Mindy's mother being attracted to him is kind of, I don't know if you can pitch it. Yeah. It's like, that's like a rewrite of history. It's like, that's first off, that's by your division. That's by universal. And yeah, that was no, not easy. That was not a one trick pony.

[00:36:12] They did three of them. They did comics and a cartoon show. It's like, yeah. Uh, what are you talking about person? Um, so when did the, uh, writing bug for, uh, writing books, uh, come along or you're just like, now I'm ready to branch out. Now I want to go around the time I turned 50 and I noticed that people weren't inviting me to pitch me as much anymore.

[00:36:36] I realized, you know, and they say that, you know, if you haven't made yourself established at by age 40 or 45, it's, it's time to start looking for another thing. And I had this, this thing that started as a TV pilot and then it turned into a feature. And then, uh, a friend of mine, author named Alex Okoloff had just turned one of her scripts into a, into a novel and it became a big hit for her. So I said, I can do that. You know, it's, it's, you just, you, you write them, but of course you have to expand the backstory.

[00:37:05] You have to have, uh, you know, and you, and you, you can do interior monologues and, and you can, you can just be funny in how you describe a scene. There's a lot of things you can do in a book that you can't do in a screenplay or a teleplay. So I really enjoy writing books and I have two series out. Although the one that I really is my heart is the time travel. There's also when I do that, which probably is up your alley. Cause I know you, you've got the werewolf book, but, uh, the full moon fever series starts out with a werewolf murder.

[00:37:35] So yeah, great minds thinking alike, of course. Yeah. I, I wish I had a werewolf book. Don't you have one? Doug keeps thinking I am related to the sci-fi author of the same name. Maybe I think I probably saw an interview with somebody that's close to your name. Yep. Yep. You keep thinking I'm the red winner guy. And he actually, as I recall, he had a short beard like yours. He is. You could have passed for him. I do, but I have not followed, but I, I'm going to have to check out this book.

[00:38:05] This Aussie who has my name. Yeah. So, um, what's it called? Red winner. And it is so funny. Doug was like, in this place, you gotta be. I'm like, no, trust me. I, I, I only know about this. Cause there's like the fifth person in a row who's told me about this new book. But, uh, Hey, he had a cool pitch though, with his thing, just reading the back of that. It was like, man, that's a, that's a dude. He's just going back to pulp. He loves genres. Cause he loves. Yeah. He loves genre, but he also, he was really into history.

[00:38:35] He knew the whole history of the werewolf story that he was writing from. And I just, I really appreciate that's my favorite thing about books is, is doing the research. You know, I'm one of my books is set in Constantinople. So I just got to read all about what, and, and no one's ever made a movie about Constantinople. It was like the Byzantine empire. It was the Roman empire that lasted another thousand years and nobody's ever done a movie about it that I know of. So I'm thinking, yeah, we've got a million Roman movies. Why not the Byzantines? I would just give it time.

[00:39:05] There's going to be someone, I mean, they're just finally making Hannibal the Great with Denzel Washington. So I'm just like, yeah. And, and, and, uh, hopefully the Odyssey with Matt Damon and Christopher Nolan will kick that kick up interest in ancient, ancient empires. It is like music though, where it's like if they imitate and try to sound and look at each other, these movies, these books, these, even these video games. And all it takes is one of them. Yeah. It doesn't sell as good.

[00:39:32] And then the others just kind of slowly venture out and then, you know, give it some time. And then everyone's like, gosh, I wish something like that, that was made a decade or a half ago when we saw more of that. So yeah, all it takes is just someone makes the dominoes collapse. And then finally you're like, okay, you know, we should do more of that.

[00:39:52] But, uh, you, you got a very unique opportunity to be part of a, uh, charity beneficial, uh, anthology called Love and Under Distractions. And you got to insert one of your full moon fever stories on there. Uh, but how did you get the chance to meet those other authors, those other genre guys? That was actually, um, my, my publisher, uh, Christiana Miller, who, uh, was also a writer and, and, and submitted to them.

[00:40:20] So she, she's, she, I, she's the one I rely on for hookups like that. She, she says, oh, you should do this. You should do this. Yeah, absolutely. She's, um, and I, when I first started publishing my book, I was self publishing because Christiana basically taught me how, and, um, so it's, it's, it's, it's something you can do. And again, it's like writing for animation. If you, if you write your own book and you get it out there, you don't have to, you don't have to follow what the editor says or what, what the marketing people are saying.

[00:40:50] You just put out what you want and you hopefully you find your audience. That's neat. And, uh, did you keep some of their numbers close where you're like, we got to work on something soon guys, you know, the days not young anymore. Yeah, I don't know. Um, I, I, I've lost touch with, with some of those people. Um, I remember Ron Zwang, brilliant, brilliant writer. I, I haven't heard from him in a while. I need to track him down. I mean, you've been a story editor. I can totally see you just having people, you come out with an outline, people contribute

[00:41:19] other stuff and then you make like a few other changes. Oh yeah, I'd love that. To have a stable of writers working for you. And then trade it off. It's like, okay, book five, you guys are now the show runner. I'll contribute a key segment for the pivotal dramatic moment. And then someone else who we trust will wrap it up. Yeah, that's, that's true. I, they're out there. There are writers rooms, which I legit will give an example, especially because I, I've done some screenwriting my own self, but I, I did.

[00:41:49] I just would, I nonstop just look at special features here. Commentary tracks is like, see, why can't every writer's room be that way? It's like, you, you just, you hear other great stories about how David E. Kelly passed Don what he learned from Steven Bochco, who's, you know, been around since Columbo before he was doing all the hit 80 shows like Doogie Howser and Hill Street Blues. It's like, but they had a very good, just your pitch just has to kick, just be a whooping kick-ass thing to where it's like, we can't refuse it. And you got to stand by it.

[00:42:19] If they just push you over on it, you've just proven their point is like, okay, maybe that's not worthy of an episode or that's good for another show, not this one. And when you hear about all these other showrunners who have tone meanings or just do other time saving costs instead of just endless auditions, like they just keep reusing people who are reliable and just casting them in on recognizable roles or is like, okay, like go back to Star Trek.

[00:42:47] They did do that with what's his name. I'm going to be so mad that I forgot his name. He direct he is still today directed the most episodes and it's not Jonathan Franks. Oh, not Brent Spiner. Nah, he did some, but it would be and he's a really good guy. And David Livingston. Yeah, he started off as I'm just the unit production manager. And then they're like, hey, you got us all locked down and on budget on time.

[00:43:16] We're going to give you an upcharge. You need to direct all these episodes. And then he started what he contributed the most was hiring all the free different cinematographers who brought a documentary look. And so and and so it's just like, yeah, it's just when you are an undervalued person in the room and others are willing to go the extra mile is like, you got to be the new rider. You got to take over for the upcoming seasons like that's amazing. Like, I know this will blow your mind.

[00:43:46] Uh, the Battlestar Galactica guys were really good at just outlining conflict. Uh, uh, Boston Legal. Pretty much what David E. Kelly just did with all his other established writers is much like the practice and Ally McBill is like, OK, you're got this crew is going to work on all the comedy and you're going to work on making all these speeches and make sure they're not too preachy or too over long. And we wrap it up neatly in a bow. Uh, but my favorites are actually the writers room for 24.

[00:44:13] Despite in a political show, they never got in a heated argument. The people on both sides of the political aisle and they never told each other, you're an idiot or I disagree. And there might have been a little dust up about that cougar that was chasing his daughter around. Oh, there was definitely they heard the complaint on that and they were like, we can't do anything like that. But the most they would get would just like they would just have a plot twist and they would say no, no, too much even for this implausible show.

[00:44:40] But I'm like, that is rare. I would have thought someone would have been like, you can insert that. But I disagree with that. Whoa, it's like, no, they they all were just smoking Cupid cigars and just trying to say, what can we do? That's just crazy and no one else is doing. Let's have fun with it. And like, see, that's and now, unfortunately, we've seen other stuff where people are like, oh, we love loss. Too bad the writers weren't getting along with each other and everyone would like leave every other season.

[00:45:04] So there's been a you're talking about SVU. There was a deal where David Graziano, they're like, hey, good writer, but he's toxic and writers are front and believe we got to make his contract expire after this season. So it's like they there is stuff like that where people have to politely jettison the there. There are toxic people and you just have to sort of learn to avoid them or or try not to let them infect you with the toxicity.

[00:45:33] Right. But I mean, it's you're in a business full of artists and artists are, I think, fundamentally crazy in one way or another. And the ones who can work, even though they're crazy, are the ones who got all the work. Totally. You've seen it with all these other guys who were hot shots back in the day, then career declined. And they were like, I need to snap out of the ego. I'm going to, you know, rebuild those bridges I broke. You know, and some of them never learn.

[00:46:01] You know, we see it was still out, where is like, oh, I got a claim. Now I got to do more of it. I'm like, no, no, we said we didn't mean we want more sequels. Now go on to the other thing. Now that you've come back and played the beloved character over time. Now do something else, please. So it's like I think a lot of people just like to just get spoiled, I guess, for lack of word. And I don't get me wrong, I can totally understand getting spoiled, but like just know when to creatively walk away.

[00:46:26] I can totally respect when someone goes and now it's time to go on to the next thing. I've done that role perfect. I just can't do it anymore. You know, unless the story is good, they'll come back. And, you know, you do want an excuse sometimes just to stop doing what you've been doing and do something totally different. About 30 years ago, I met a writer named Michael Dinn, who was working on Happily Ever After with me. Well, we wound up writing the Aladdin show and stuff.

[00:46:53] And he turned me and he says, you know, how would you like to help me write a movie about my grandfather? And I said, who's your grandfather? He says he was the first Asian American who was ever elected to office in the United States. I went, wow, how come I never heard of this guy? And he says, exactly. He says, I want to find out. And the more we found out about this guy, the more fascinating he became because he came over like as a 14 year old kid from from war torn China. And he barely got into the country because they had the Chinese Exclusion Act at the time.

[00:47:22] But luckily, his father, his so-called father had vouched for him and had letters that he could read and prove that he was his son. He after like 20 years trying to, you know, his family fought him and everything. Wouldn't let him go to school. Wouldn't let him learn the language. Wouldn't let him go to college. He finally went to college, became a lawyer. He also went to work for the governor of Arizona. He was his house boy for like four years and learned all about politics. And that's when he got the bug to run for office.

[00:47:52] So the whole story is, is it's called Paper Son. It's about this guy. And it's a great story. 25 years ago. And now all of a sudden it's getting heat. So you never know when your overnight success is going to come from. Do you ever worry about this? Especially since you're both a writer, but you also, you know, you've been working this. So you know how the industry is. You get the competition. You get how there can be too many cooks. Have you ever seen a movie coming out?

[00:48:20] And because you're read up on it, you're like, I'm not going to say anything now, but I'm a little worried. There's like five writers name attached. That means there's a lot of rewrites. Oh, yeah. Well, I, I, my, my, I hope the best for it, but it's not going to be an a minus that it was. Yeah. You kind of cringe when, when you, especially when you heard certain stories coming out.

[00:48:40] I try to be, I don't want to be that jerk and I never want to bad mouth it because sometimes an editor can save it or a director can just take one extra smoke break and get something good in the camp. But then there's other times where you're like, ah, it's just, it's been oversaturated or simmering too long. And this is going to be something that's a little, we're going to need to see a drink. Yes. And sometimes it's just, it's not the right time for that thing to come out.

[00:49:07] The classic story of that was, was Frank Capra making It's a Wonderful Life. Yes. Came out the same year that the best years of our lives, which is also just perfect classic film. And, and, and they won all the Oscars and, and, and It's a Wonderful Life. And I ran into a guy named Miles Kruger, who was a deaf film nut like me when I was a kid. And he was 10 years old and he ran into Capra on the street in New York in early 1947. He asked him what movie was coming.

[00:49:35] And Capra said, nah, too much bathos. He never made another movie like that again. It, it, it, it kind of broke his heart that the film wasn't accepted. And yet 40 years later, when everybody forgotten who Frank Capra was all of a sudden the movie came back. Cause it fell into public domain. And all of a sudden now nobody knows the best years of our lives anymore, but they all know it's a wonderful life. That's the other thing too. You'll see people explode is like, oh, that's great. How could anyone hate that?

[00:50:04] I'm like, well, back then everyone ignored this is like it. And I have to tell even the modern day film of some like, uh, guys, uh, the Terminator got pretty lukewarm reveal reviews. When it came out blade runner and the fight club were hated. Oh, or the thing, the thing was not like classic example. Other than the driving crowd. It was far is like, yeah, it's like, it doesn't always take off right away. It's like, now I'm seeing people deconstruct other stuff saying, I don't know why I was into star Wars. I don't know why you made me cry.

[00:50:34] It's like, you just gotta maybe Scorsese. He's not a great writer. He uses narration. He's like, you'll hear hot takes. It's like, and you just gotta let it go. It's like, hey, you know, we, it doesn't help that we were there at the time. The older stuff gets the harder it is also to get into stuff. I think it also doesn't help if you don't have a film studies class or if you aren't watching it like with some other people who are into it. You know, that can make a difference. Other times that can break you.

[00:51:02] I've done plenty of sitcoms that way where I'm like, hey, I'm really loving the infectious energy. I'm in with, you know, watching this aunt or grandfather laugh at this, but it's I'm being I'm just a curmudgeon in the corner. So I'm just gonna let you guys enjoy this stuff for you. Yeah. And I don't want to be that asshole who I wrecked it for you. But that's been a good thing for me, too.

[00:51:25] When I'm watching comedy and I say, OK, you know, I don't need a bellyaching laugh, but I'm seeing if I the minute I see someone on their phone. OK, let's switch to something else that's up your alley, because I like all kinds of zany, atypical comedies. And this one's just too weird for you. So it's OK. I'm not going to not have a thing.

[00:51:44] It's interesting that you point that out now, because it's such a point of so many comedies and dramas, for that matter, where you'll see a character and they'll cut to the surface of the phone while they're getting messages for someone. And they'll use as part of the plot. And I'm thinking that a lot of this is in scenes with kids. But now people are talking about how we're not going to have any more social media aimed at kids or we're not going to let them take their phones into the school.

[00:52:09] So all of us people who had just gotten through writing in cell phones and stuff, because it's going to be awfully hard to surprise somebody when they got a phone. Now, all of a sudden, that that rule is changing. And you don't know 20 years from now what the kids are going to be saying. You've got to change it out. Those are the best movies, though, where they keep they did that on the new Galactica, where it's like don't have any close ups of the guns. It's like they have a weapon. I don't want to even date that something in the future.

[00:52:38] They got some kind of thing. It's not going to be dated by. Oh, we won't have that for now. Same thing with. Yeah, the phones is like when you watch an older political or social or just a comedy even is like, don't be distracted by the pager. It does not matter. Yeah, the phone is just as vital. You can use that to your detriment.

[00:52:58] But that or even to even more suspense is like, yeah, we I mean, they did that with some of the other Star Trek shows is like, OK, in this one, this particular episode, for whatever reason, we can't use a transporter. The usual stuff that gets us out of jail can't do it. And so I laugh even more at some of the crime shows where you're like, yeah, nowadays this be done within five minutes because there's cameras on every corner.

[00:53:22] Now, imagine how many crimes people have gone away with because the ring camera has ruined a lot of detective stories and stories. Absolutely. You got to you can accept one plot hole. Now you got to cover up five more, you know, holes in the boat that sink in. It's like, but have you ever just always been like, hey, give me more challenges? I you know, the sky's the limit. I have never said to somebody, I don't want to try this.

[00:53:52] You know, it's just if it's new and I haven't done it before. I mean, if somebody let me write a soap opera tomorrow, I'd be over the moon. That's about I could see you doing that dramatic. I haven't done. You've done all these adventure shows. I can totally see you doing like a Western with some. Animated stuff. There you go. The first animated soap opera. Let's do it. Why not? Who's saying no? But I'll go make sure there's plenty of coffee in the writer's room. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:21] Treat your writers. Yeah. Don't treat them like dirt. Give them their coffee. Give them their donuts. Give them bagels. Uh, and who have been some of your favorite writers to play off? You did mention a great one. And I that I do. I did watch a lot of the 90s Aladdin show growing up. I was like, wow, this is just as seems just as dedicated as the movie. But have there ever been ones where you're like, hey, you know, I get a bunch together. You were going to be first one in this writer's room with me of all five of you.

[00:54:51] Well, that was what I did on Captain Planet. But before I get everybody mad at me with with my if it's doomsday, this must be Belfast. Um, I was I was able to bring in writers that I knew were really good and and just people I know I could hand a script to and it would be great. Um, but I you know, I was kind of spoiled too, because I used to work for Jack Mendelsohn, who produced a lot of the uh, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And right Jack would just call me up. Hey, you busy this week? I need you to write a script. I did.

[00:55:20] I would do like 10 or 12 scripts on some of Jack shows just because he knew I could deliver on time. And I think that was what I preferred more than assembling the room myself is I just like coming in and doing the work for him because anything I wrote, he'd love. One time we needed a villain and we'd used up all our best villain names. I had one sorcerer named Nagzan and and Jack's wife Carol says, why don't you use your name? You sound like a villain.

[00:55:46] And I said the evil Molitor and she says, yeah, I don't fly. The evil Molitor it is. Ah, that's neat. And see, just say that name is like I've committed to it. I've said it dryly. You see me laughing. I'm serious. I was like, say there was a lot of me in that character. Oh, perfect. So this is going to make you laugh. There have been plenty of stuff where kind of like Apex Legends, where it's like, yeah, I've never played that game. I've never seen that cartoon.

[00:56:17] But in a way, because I each time I go to a store or a giant supermarket, there's merchandise for it. I've indirectly seen it without realizing, you know, it's a thing. I used to see occasional just merchandise for pocket dragon adventures. I was like, I don't know what that is. I just thought, oh, it's a dragon toy. I was like, no, no, look closer at the name tag. That's for it's for a Spanish American cartoon. And so have you ever had kind of fanfare like that or like indirect? Like, yeah, I worked on it. You might not.

[00:56:46] I nobody. You're the first person who's mentioned that in, I think, 20 years. 20 years. I remember. And Craig Miller and Marv Wolfson, who created the show, got them to sign a contract with the Writers Guild for an animated cartoon. Now, this isn't the same way that The Simpsons and Family Guy and all those guys are WGA shows because those are sitcoms.

[00:57:13] But this was a cartoon for kids that was was done with the WGA contract. So that was the most famous thing that that show was that I recall. I other than that, though, I don't I'm sure it must be running somewhere. I just but we don't get residuals on those kinds of cartoons. The only residuals I get these days on cartoons are French cartoons. Totally Spies!. You know, I've I have paid many a rent check with my totally spies. It was on every world. Yeah.

[00:57:43] It was basically Charlie's Angels in cartoon form with some more pretty much comedy with a few manga touches. Definitely. Yeah, it was completely anime. And then it was they had some other gadgets. And I think there was a monkey on there as well, if I'm not mistaken. I don't remember the money. I only did the first year of that show. I would love to come back, though, because, you know, I like getting residual. I will see. I kid you not.

[00:58:09] I will just see just some random cartoon pop up or someone do just a random reference of cartoons. I'm like, I'm like, wow. I was like, but I think it went on for like five years or something. And ABC family showed up. I think it was long. I think it might have been seven seasons. Oh, well, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. But Dino Saucers. Here's a deep cut for you when your first credits that first cartoon. Yeah.

[00:58:36] It was on Apple, you know, available to buy off of iTunes for those who were interested back in the day. But yeah, I was like, I think I would just see that because Deke had some catalogs back when, you know, video stores did this. It's like, here's other stuff on our catalog. Check it out. And I was like, yeah, it's dinosaurs in a cartoon show. I was like, yeah, it was. I mean, let's face it. Dino Saucers and Beverly Hills Teens, which was sort of the companion show, were like 65 episode orders.

[00:59:03] So they were supposed to run for like, you know, a quarter of a year, you know, five days a week. And that was a lot of work to be had. So I met a lot of writers back then who were all just grabbing the scripts as fast as we could. And the only thing is they were producing it so fast that by the time you finish your first script, they were already like 10 scripts into the next order. So you had to write fast if you wanted to do a bunch of those. That's neat.

[00:59:29] So there's a lot of great interviews for this man, but you're a huge fan of comedy pioneer Larry Galbert. Oh, yeah. And he has some great videos online for those who have not seen his stuff. So but. Yeah. So given how he's, you know, been the mastermind behind MASH and what have you and, you know, worked with the likes of Carl Reiner's and Caesar and Neil Simon.

[00:59:55] And well, why do you consider him just like you're kind of parallel? Well, one of the funniest movies I ever saw was a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. And I literally wasn't actually crazy about that movie. He told me later he didn't care for all the changes they made, but it was basically a historical comedy. And I was so entranced by the fact that they could take something that sounded like ancient Rome. The people are walking around, but they're not sending it up.

[01:00:23] They're not doing, you know, it's not like a road movie or. Yeah. Fun of what they're doing. It has a plot and it has a hero and a villain and the whole nine yards. And I just I love that so much. And years later, when I when I wrote the first of my books, it was the big section was set in 1945 Hollywood. And by this time, I was on a writer's board called Page BBS and Larry was on there. Larry was the gray haired eminence. He was the genius we all respected.

[01:00:51] And I so I emailed him. I said, Larry, I got a story which is set in 1945 Hollywood. Would you mind just reading it and telling me if I caught the period right? If you know, because it's you were he was working on a show called Duffy's Tavern at the time. Yeah. And he said, sure, send it. And then and then a couple of days later, he said, send me the rest of the book. And then he wrote me this wonderful blurb, which was how I first got published, was was having the great Larry Gelbart say that he liked the the time travel.

[01:01:18] Oh, man, that's that's neat to just. Yeah, Larry was a mensch and he was also just brilliantly funny and effortlessly funny. You know, some people work at it, but I think Larry was just one of those people who just did bubbles up out of them. He had a great quote, though, he says, he says, where are all those people who tell you how to write the story when the typing paper shows up? You know, dreams of eight and a half by eleven empty with with nothing on them.

[01:01:44] And you're expected to take twenty six letters and then rearrange them into something that shows the reality of life. And he says, where are all the helpers when that arrives? Where the hell are they? He understood what writers face and he was very, very clever about it. So that's why he's kind of a voice in a way is like many are like latching on to his philosophy. In addition to say it's more than just I love your work is like, no, I just I love you the person.

[01:02:11] Yeah, no, he's I've never met anyone in a bad word to say about Larry Gelbart. That's that's neat that you even had a gave you a moment of time. That's yeah, no, he was he was he was a he was quite a guy. Bucket list. Do you have any other things on your bucket list as well? Or is it like I got to do this for you? You mean after I get paper sun made and get my sixth book finished? Sure. I don't know. You know, it's it's it.

[01:02:37] I know there's something else I want to write and something else I want to do, but I haven't figured it out yet. I'm still figuring out my the end of my sixth book and whether or not I want to extend it into a seventh book. So that's sort of what I'm I'm I'm wrestling with now. But yeah, no, I there are a lot of things I'd love to do. That's neat. And going back to your the icon. Frank Capra for a minute.

[01:03:02] If you haven't I don't know if you listen to any to any podcasts, but there's a very unique one by this gal. She's collaborated and even been sponsored by Turner Classic Movies because of her vast research. You must remember this. And she did a new she always does a new thing each year, and then she'll take a hiatus and be like, I'll be back next summer.

[01:03:22] But yeah, as she did a whole deal on the old man is still kicking just talking to all these just every other, you know, just giant Hollywood playwright turned filmmaker. Everyone from Vincent Benelli to just John Ford and just talking about how, again, just some of these guys could just be quite the characters. Is this some Alicia Malone that you're talking about? It does the silent or not. It's Jack one's to it. It is. This is Karina Longworth. So, but I don't know.

[01:03:52] But yeah, she has a podcast about about Capra. Yeah, it's just look up. You must remember this. And she'll have like all these new sections on all these, you know, aging filmmakers. And it is just so amazing how Frank could just anger people and was very cynical. And then you see how again is like, but the work itself is like that he wanted to make feel good, heartfelt coming of age movies.

[01:04:19] It's so it is so electrifying at times when you're just like, yeah, some people. What was her name again? Karina Longworth. Karina Longworth. I'll look that up when we're done here. She's great. She's yeah, she's on it. That's that's right up my alley. I love Hollywood. The history of sex cinema. She's even done audio dramas on part of her same feed. But yeah, she used to work for Rotten Tomatoes show. Wow, that's that's pretty cool.

[01:04:47] And it's just very electrifying when you just are like, yeah, it's like when people want to stress themselves and are still dedicated to making good materials like they can be. Oh, you know what in the room was like when their work just is bigger than. Their persona that that tells you something, too, is like, hey, they weren't easy to get along with, but they had a vision.

[01:05:11] Yeah, I know Capra. He fought it with a lot of his his his writers, but he was you know, he was the guy who in the end made the decision. He was the showrunner. So sometimes you have to be the villain. But I remember when I was first at UCLA, they had Frank Capra came to show It's a Wonderful Life. And this was like back before it was on TV all the time. It had not quite fallen into public domain. So he came and he showed this. I'd never heard of this movie. I think most of the people in the room hadn't heard of it.

[01:05:40] By the end, we just stand up and we're crying and we're cheering standing ovation. And Capra comes out and he's just like he's just beaming, you know, in it because I and knowing the history now of what he'd been through with that. I just thought it was so wonderful. He comes out and he says, what I do? He knew what he had done, but it was just it was so delightful to see somebody who had just, you know, rediscovered their career and been rediscovered. I got attention 40 years later. Exactly.

[01:06:06] And you've got to take the long view of these these overnight successes often take 20 or 30 years. I remember hearing an interview about the cast of Wings. There's like, thanks. But where were you when we were being rerun 24 seven on USA? And everybody from Wings went on over. Most of them went on to great shows. Oh, they're great. And Steven Weber.

[01:06:26] I mean, the people that show was kind of that that I put in like the news radio or even Captain Powerdale or just like something that got rerun enough. And it hasn't been on the air and like, you know, eons and yet so many people know about it. And they're like, so if they recognize a town from that or is like, yeah, I I know about that.

[01:06:47] So it's it is so funny what stuff kind of just travels and other stuff is just immortalized, even though it's been a minute since it's been rerun or replayed at a cinema. It's just like, yeah, it's just some. Yeah. And you never know what they'll remember. As Jimmy Stewart used to say, when you're making movies, sometimes you just give people little pieces of time that they never forget. Oh, Mr. Hopper, Mr. Hooper. Mr. Potter. Wait a second here. Wait a second.

[01:07:16] My father was no businessman. He was no just an ordinary businessman. That was the fun thing I love doing on Jeopardy is I didn't want to do the interviews, but I could do like two or three impressions on the show. And that took me through like 13 episodes of of Jeopardy. You finally came back last year. They didn't let me do an impression, but that's OK. I shot my bolt. I don't know why does everyone have to be so dry these days.

[01:07:42] So you you're kind of like there's even a Reddit about you alone because they note how you're one of the few to have been been on the show during all three eras of Jeopardy. I'm like, that's and you've done over 13 appearances. I'm sure you'll get six more. So how did you sign up for that? Those sweepstakes. How did you decide? I'm going to test my knowledge and all kinds of stuff. I well, I Jeopardy and the College Bowl were the two shows I used to love. And I would get a lot of the answers.

[01:08:10] So I got really encouraged and they canceled Jeopardy when I was I was probably in elementary school, but they brought it back in 1978. And at that point I thought, oh, I'm going to go down and I went on it and I won all five days and they canceled the show to two weeks later. So I never got determined champions. And then like nine years later, they nine years later, they brought the show back with Alex Trebek and I tried out. And then for some reason, they let me on again.

[01:08:40] And then that one I only won four days. But because they didn't have enough five day champions, I got finally got to the tournament of the champions. So that was a lot of fun. Kind of back to your main day job. It seems like you just have this way of just you're sharp enough to where even if you're not getting a straight up, yes, you're on the back burner. People are like, OK, well, they're my number five pick, but they're going to eventually make my number three and the number one because they got a little something that's sizzling there is just some.

[01:09:08] So do you think a lot of people just go into marketing kind of thing, kind of like when you see famous actors who got the role after they auditioned 20 times, you kind of get that with your writing and your game show tryouts. It's like we want you, but we don't want you to start off with it. We want you to kind of come in in the middle show or that can happen. I mean, you have to remember that your job is to keep people entertained.

[01:09:31] And if you can keep them entertained in the room, if you can keep them, you know, then you can. And I frankly, I'm not that great in the room. I think I'm all right if I have to do an interview or something like that. But it's I think there's a magic about being in the room where some people just just they come alive. I'm more the careful plotting guy who wants. I make the sale. I'll just make sure it's the best script they get. And then I appreciate it. You want to make sure the details.

[01:10:00] Now, I am impressed, especially being a mega fan of the show, that you've got an American Acollege TV and shorts competition on the blacklist. You know, it didn't go to which one was this now. I'm sorry. You did a farewell to Tuvalu. Oh, Tuvalu. Yeah, that was that was what sort of got me into that episode of the Warner Brothers program. Yeah, it hasn't ever been filmed, but it was on the blacklist. You got attention. You got. Yeah, that was that was a fun one to do.

[01:10:29] And, you know, I just recently saw a news report about a year ago from Tuvalu. And I'm thinking, oh, that show is coming true. Because in the West Wing that I wrote, the president of Tuvalu was expected for a visit. And it turns out that he's asking him to let his people emigrate to America because they're about to be inundated by the rising seas. And now that's what they're doing. That's what they're doing in every other country. Except they're mainly going to Australia. You you would have still probably challenged everyone. So what do you think would have been different than most of your usual kind of wrap up adventure shows?

[01:10:58] Because West Wing gets frilling every once in a while, but it's mostly a drama. So how do you picture Sorkin would have rewritten it had it gone to air? I get that. It's just a spectrum. Well, West Wing, I always wrote it like it was a rom-com. To me, it was it was always about the tension between Josh and Donna, between the president and his wife. And there were so many. And the pacing, it was very, very Howard Hawks, fast paced, you know, coming in on top of each other's lives, walk and talk. And that that was the energy for that show.

[01:11:28] So you have, you know, I'm trying to make sure there was an issue and something for the president to be concerned about. But it was more just how everybody related to the problem. The problem was that on the day he was going to give a global, no, he was going to give a global warming speech. And it turned out to be like the coldest march in history.

[01:11:52] And then and then like a month later, when he finally is going up for his big global warming bill, it turns out that now I got it backwards. I screwed up my story. It was it was the frozen, the frozen day where they had this guy from Tubula who's like this enormous Polynesian man and his enormous wife. And they can't find anything to fit them except that the coat from the Smithsonian that Howard Taft used to wear. So it was kind of obscure historical jokes.

[01:12:22] But they liked it at Warner Brothers. And that's what got me into the program. Yeah, that's still neat, though, because like, sure, it's a shame to make it to air. But I mean, this is kind of like how Sean Ryan, creator of the Shield and other edgy action mystery and even comedy shows. And he he always said is like, hey, I got attention because I did a spec script for the pilot of Friends. I'm like, man, that had to be something. And so it's like, even though they passed on, it was like, hey, I got me in the door. So and you can be really my friend Robin Stein.

[01:12:52] I just I want to brag on her for a minute. She got a lot of work in the 90s by doing a script about it was the Mary Tyler Moore show. Oh, man. Only it was it was like Mary is is is is is a nymphomaniac and Ted's a drunk. And it just it was like and then she stamped on the outside. This script is rejected. Never let it see the light of day. It was just a really funny takeoff on the Mary Tyler Moore show done 20 years down the line.

[01:13:21] And they love she got so she got on The Simpsons. She got a lot of work off that script. So that's a very clever way that you can you can get you can stand out from the crowd by doing something like that. Oh, that's that is neat because you hear all these other stories and everyone likes to add a negative tone to it saying, oh, it wouldn't have worked. It's like, well, you don't know that it wasn't made.

[01:13:42] There's plenty of stuff that can change up or just take out one subplot that's dragging or one little line that might be a little outdated or challenge people. But I mean, like you say, it's like I do like how you just made the Howard Hawks reference. Like, yeah, most of the time, West Wing is just kind of a lot of pacing around and dramedy in between all the political scenarios. And they had so many big talents who were at David Chase was so cynical back in the day.

[01:14:10] You know, he's like, how are people how is Sopranos being nominated in the same category for best drama as West Wing? I'm like, well, because a lot of your same people are working on this. It's yeah, it just because and he just was the type, you know, his brilliant mind. But he's like, I just don't take anything seriously. If you're not allowed to curse, it's like, oh, come on. Because, again, Sean Ryan.

[01:14:33] The thing I loved about Chase was that he he started on Kolchak, the Night Stalker and Rockford Files and Rockford Files. And he always had these really funny offbeat Rockford Files plots. Yeah. The one where everybody was trying to track down these stolen paintings and there were Nazis and killers running around and all this stuff. And in the end, it was so complicated and he thought he had it figured out. And then the guy staggers up and onto Rogi's front lawn and says, I got to confess.

[01:15:01] And then it told the climb is completely different. The people that he thought was guilty weren't guilty. The person he thought was guilty was dead already. And he says, you know, Irving, if you could just just tell this to the police, I can't go through it anymore. And then at that point, the guy dies. It was a perfect David Chase ending. That's how David does it. But it is even funnier, too, when you see people who can't stand each other.

[01:15:25] Like David Simon, for instance, you know, gets paid any time the David, the John Munch character, Richard Belzer Perfected, appears on any show. So X-Files, why? I didn't think about that. But you're right. He's got quite a bit of coin from all those guest appearances. Yeah. The other two guys surrendered it because they were best friends with Tom Fontana, who was best friends with Dick Wolf. And he's like, I need that cynical guy on Homicide to be on SVU. We love doing these crossovers.

[01:15:54] And Simon was like, I hate shows like Law & Order. We should have never done those crossovers. So it is just so funny how you got two fans. You're like, I like both the shows. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry they don't get along with each other. So it is just so funny how, I mean, you even see rivalries between other shows that weren't really rivalries. Like, you see, what was it? What's her name?

[01:16:18] Brandy and Monica were not at odds with each other, but they were, you know, marketed that way. The same thing with Chicago Hope and ER. They were both had friends of each other, but they were pitted as rivals. Same thing with Cyndi Lauper and Madonna. So it is so funny when you see these marketed rivalries. And it's like, it shouldn't even be a rivalry, but whatever. If you want to go that way, if it.

[01:16:42] But it's so weird seeing it in a digital age because it's just so apparent versus on a newspaper where you have a demonizing tagline or that is making you have to feel some certain ways. Like now when it's all internet and you're just like, well, let's say I generated, I can tell that they're trying to generate a response for me. Yeah. Is there any other people who's like you met at a party and you're like, ah, I, you know, if I had to do it over again, I would want to work with them.

[01:17:11] It's like they just seemed like they had the perfect kind of. Oh, yeah. Yeah. One of the guys I wish I'd worked for was Chuck Lorre. I think Chuck is brilliant. And I worked for him on a, I think. Beanie and Cecil. I wrote a Beanie and Cecil for him when, again, during a writer's strike, he jumped into animation. But I just could never seem to make the connection with Chuck.

[01:17:35] I took a meeting with him about a year into the Big Bang Theory. And I tried, I was a smart ass. I tried to do what I did with Alan Spencer and write a spec Big Bang Theory. And it, I did not get work off it. Let's put it this way. That was a case where I should have listened to the common wisdom. But, you know. But no, I still enjoy Chuck's shows. He's just, he's really good at crafting characters.

[01:18:03] And just, the comedy is very character-based. And I don't think he gets enough respect. Because, you know, I don't think, I don't know if he's ever gotten an Emmy. Certainly not for the shows that he's created. But they're just brilliant examples that will be running for 20 or 30 years. Endless. Darman Gregg, everything. Yeah. But, it's so funny how you mention that. Because it kind of reminds me on how I see just like, people will list other works.

[01:18:32] And they'll be like, yeah, I'm the stand-in for so-and-so. Or I'm the, I'm just their best friend. So I help this comedian tighten up some of their dialogue. It's so funny how so many people do uncredited or just, you know, intern gigs. It's like, yeah, I'm past interns. But I'm just, I'm just helping out someone. It's like, maybe it'll prove something bigger in the future. There's still time. Chuck Lorre's still with us. No, that's very unique.

[01:19:01] And this is warming my heart to know that someone just has so, so many positive stories. And anything that didn't pan out, it was usually just a whatever. You know, it's like, I've read that email moving on. Sometimes you just got to get the good story out of it. That's, if you got a good story out of it, that's better than a sharp stick in the eye. Well, I know so many who would love to be in your position.

[01:19:28] They would love to write for a kid's cartoon and just do something that their six-year-old could watch. You know. Well, you got to write them fast because they grow up fast. But yeah, absolutely. I encourage anybody who wants to write, you know, write and read. Oh, good heavens. I'm on every sucker list in town, it looks like. It doesn't have to be only Pixar or only, you know, I made an unsold script that was supposed to be for Simpsons or South Park. It's like, yeah, there's just so many others out there.

[01:19:59] The one thing I worry about now is AI scripts. I've seen a few that I thought were pretty awful. But, you know, it seems like if there's a way to take paying writers out of the system, they will find a way to do it. So I'm concerned that people are going to approve a lot of just mediocre scripts that they could write for nothing. Totally. And that we will dumb down our tastes. It's like.

[01:20:26] Well-written shows are like foreign people's tastes. And if you don't exercise that muscle and understand how clever something can be, then you're just going to the lowest common denominator. It's the reason. If there's a typo, it was made by AI. If it's just plain bad, you can tell it was a mediocre writer who just wasn't feeling it, wasn't giving a damn. But, yeah, it is also just a shame because it's like that should be like that should kind of like financial crimes.

[01:20:56] You know what falls under rent fraud or financial. It's like, yeah, that should be writer's fraud. It's like was not written by an actual person. It's like, OK, then no one gets paid for a script. If I ever read a joke that really cracks me up and I find out it was in my AI, that's the day when I start worrying. They haven't made me laugh yet. Totally. It's like I can understand if you want to use an automated system to redirect someone to a call on a website.

[01:21:23] I can understand just one extra patch up in editing or graphics design. But when you are completely replacing human labor, it's like, sorry, guys, it's just going to show. It will literally be called robotic. And how ironic. That's why it's a stinker. There's no actual soul in this world. And I have seen others try to come back and do the whole, oh, well, technically, movies already don't have a soul. I'm like, you know what I mean. If it's soulless, it's still soulless.

[01:21:51] It's like and when it's time to go, it's time to go. But it's just so infuriating with like with all the amount of writer strikes, you see people saying, oh, shucks. There's always someone shutting us down. I'm like, well, because no one's listening. Yeah. Why do you think people go on a strike? Because I think that the latest strike may have produced enough guardrails that we shouldn't worry. But we'll find out, you know, it's unfortunately the future keeps racing at us no matter what we do. There's that.

[01:22:19] I'm still worried about friends in the voice acting community because I know some of them are trying to go around it with video games. I'm like, oh, that should still fall under SAG, you know, and even especially Writers Guild is like, just don't replace it. And I just it makes me sad, though, the idea that at some point people are trying to just eliminate the idea of bringing in a new voice. Oh, because we can generate a voice. No, you want real people's voices. You want that quirky sound. You want that that that funny character.

[01:22:49] You want somebody who sounds like Lisa Kudrow. And I don't believe there's a robot build that can sound like Lisa Kudrow. Hell no. Lisa Kudrow, you know, if it's Lisa Kudrow and that talk about a shadow. One of the first things she did was no money. She was just given her best friend, future talk show host Conan O'Brien, some tips and tricks on how to make a kickass audition and put some makeup on him. Like that's not true. I don't know about that, but that sounds great. He invited he's invited numerous times, you know, to come on the show. Oh, yeah.

[01:23:19] Be the guest of the week. But it's like, yeah. And when a friendship, nothing can replace that. No amount of time and money can replace a legit friendship. So it's just so annoying when you see people trying to literally buy each other's friendships. It's like, OK, so now it's Merc work. It's not a legit friendship. Yeah. Like when I'm sorry to be all sad, sad, sad, sad. Fear was like, yeah. I mean, when Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis got tired of each other, they made it clear.

[01:23:48] You know, it's like you got to know when to have a peaceful divorce and not ruin other people. Adam McKay and Will Ferrell did that recently where people were like, why aren't you working on each other's material lately? And Will, you know, postpone an interview. He didn't want to make come off as an asshole or ruin his friendship with Adam. And Adam was busy doing all his award winning satires. I was like, yeah, we're just taking some time off. We're not working on each other's stuff, even though we kind of need each other. So we're just going to, you know, take time off.

[01:24:17] Have a come in Jesus mode. It's patch up. Now we'll promise to work with each other again. We just we got too spoiled on using each other's talents that we had to perfect each other. And so I think a lot of that could really benefit. And so, yeah, man, I really hope that we stop with the A.I. gloom and doom is like, OK, well, those idiots are going to, you know, kind of like when you see a car in front of you, you know, five.

[01:24:46] Like five meters ahead of you, about to sink into a pothole is like, OK, well, nothing I can do to save that person, but I can swerve out of the way. So the other five people don't hit me and I don't block them from escaping. It's like, yeah, just yeah. Give me some rope. Give me a outlet. Give me an escape plan. Give me a rescue. Exactly. Like that's all I'm asking for. And it seems like you have really impacted.

[01:25:12] Everyone you've sat down and given a moment of time, just because, again, you're you're on time and you have a voice. And I'll tell you something. One, I have lost gigs by not being on time. So that's I emphasize that to anybody wants to be a writer is make sure you don't never turn your script in a day late. Never show up, you know, 10 minutes late to a meeting. I mean, that's that's super important. It's kind of like the underwritten rule is like you're early or you're late.

[01:25:41] It's like, yeah, there's no such thing as exactly on time. It's got to be early, like two days ahead of time. So then the lead writer can give you notes and say, can you patch this up? I heard a theory from my friend Barry told me this idea that that basically optimists are the people who are always late because they always think they're going to get there in plenty of time. And the freeway is not going to be jammed. And the pessimists are the ones who are always on time. Yes, absolutely. How can they not be like that?

[01:26:11] That pessimist is putting it lightly. That those are the guys I call the realist, you know? Yeah. That's that's what they truly are. Yeah. It's like it. I kind of like when you tell people call a spade a spade. Don't set yourself up for disappointment. Have realistic expectations, not low or high. Just realistic. Right. Well, I think a little bit of unreality.

[01:26:34] I mean, the problem is if you if you if you if you really shoot and aim high and you don't reach it, you'll be disappointed by not reaching it. But then later you look back and go, well, still, I got this far up the hill. And, you know, it's you have to learn to appreciate what you've done and be grateful for the things that come your way, because you're right. There are a lot of people who just haven't had those opportunities yet. And it's something to be grateful for.

[01:27:04] You know, gratitude is super important in this business. Well, and how neat that you got to be on stuff that's seen in multiple different countries. That's that's still a win. And I tell you something. I am very impressed by the depth of your knowledge. You seem to know a lot of these shows. And I'm I'm I'm very. If you have the TV on, I guarantee you're going to see something. Even if you weren't paying close attention, like, yeah, that was a thing. That was a well. Congratulations to you for being this.

[01:27:34] That I'm the boy. Well, not just was a perfect time frame is like, yeah, if if I wrote, you know, just like something that I got on the New York Times bestseller list, if I wrote some editorial in New York Times, if I got on some award winning video game, if I even got a Peabody award for a comedy show, that's a win. Yeah, absolutely. Saturn Awards are still hosted. They're not broadcasted, but they should be.

[01:27:59] I mean, you know, I'm getting a little old, but I'm still holding out that maybe I'll be the world's oldest EGOT winner. So, you know, you never know. You never know. I just have to get started on the Grammy, I think, is the one that could know that Tony is going to be the hard one. Yeah, I could say. Well, so there's a follow up question. What what would a play of yours probably look like? Would you want to do just some campy adventure kind of? It would be it would be a door slamming farce.

[01:28:25] It would be something along the lines of of noises off or something like that. Oh, hey, deep. Yeah, I that's the kind of stuff. No coward, you know, those kinds of plays. I love those things. I can see doing a greater tune kind of thing or just have some talented guys who are doing multiple different roles in a town. Oh, that's neat. And talk about door slap.

[01:28:51] But what's been the worst door slam that you you know, everyone has a negative work experience. I always try to put a positive spin on it is like because what's one where you're like, that was the dumbest critique I ever got. I'm still laughing about today. I still have that hate mail. I still have that. I told you about the one with with that. I had a universal with these. I think that might take the cake. That might be the prize winner.

[01:29:21] If it was an email, I would have totally been framed. I hope that is not working there to put that nicely. Yeah, come to think of it, I missed I lost out on that. You know, I've had a few disappointments. I have to say most people I've dealt with have been pretty kind. But, you know, it's when I was in the writers program with the Warner Brothers writers program. It was supposed to be an on ramp into into, you know, you'll get on a show this year. And they basically tell you that.

[01:29:49] But as soon as I won it, I they set up two different meetings with big agencies around town. And in both I walked in and they stood up and they saw me and they said, you know, we loved your script. It was absolutely great. We're not actually looking to sign more clients. And I thought to myself, I walked in looking 50 years old. That's the problem. So, but, you know, you can't. I did a lot of writing after that in for other shows.

[01:30:16] And I've seen that, though, where, you know, one door closes and the one opens. It's like they're required to see people, even though they the other side, the other production company doesn't want to honor the contract. I've had actor friends have done that or it's like I think he was just trying out some like table read in Arizona. And he's like, why are all these sons of anarchy actors slash best friends all here? Oh, they're just practicing, but they're not going to actually see anyone. They're all going to cast themselves. So you do kind of have to kind of have that thick skin.

[01:30:46] And it's like, OK, well, this is just an excuse for me to be better. Kind of like when you talk about to all these other people who made these popular movies that were already rejected Twilight Zone or Tales from the Crypt episodes. Could have been. Stephen King had a wonderful quote about that. He said that there are people. He said the talent in America is like lightning. You run all around town holding a lightning rod, hoping that it'll strike you. And instead it lights up somebody over the next street. And, you know, that's it.

[01:31:15] You can't take the stuff too seriously or too much to heart because it'll break you up. You just have to take your wins when you get them and move into more profitable lines of endeavor. Especially if they're going to go with someone who's cheaper but not better. It's like, well, what did you sign up for? Yes, especially that. But how unique that you were on Productions of Every Kind because, you know, Canada and France have for years been a source of mockery, but they've been still successful. It's like, I mean, you got to be on a.

[01:31:44] Oh, that's another good thing. You want to try to get your Canadian residence papers if you want it because there's still shows being done in Canada. Yeah. And guess what? It's still going to be syndicated on like some other Fox or. That's right. You may not be on the A-list, but you'll be on the A-list. Right. And then it'll get second or third run syndication probably on, you know, TNT or SyFy channel because that's the other thing too. When people don't want to produce new stuff, they'll still gladly go into Rerun City.

[01:32:13] There's been plenty of networks that have done that for years. They're like, we're just playing nothing but Scrubs and Friends all day. Let's do it. Well, I'll tell you, I am kind of amazed at how many shows I'd never heard of are now rerunning on various local channels. So it's like there's a tremendous amount of material out there.

[01:32:32] And in some ways, I think it's kind of daunting to people because you're going up against some of the greatest comic minds the last 50 years when you're dealing with all of the product that's out there and all the streaming content. But, you know, it's a fun business. I can't complain about it. It's treated me fairly well. I hope there's more avenues. I'm delighted that you found so many of these titles.

[01:33:01] I would have bet money nobody would say the name of... Diostosoms. Crippleys, believe it or not, to me again. And yet, you know it. Oh, and that's just it. It's like there used to be pretty much a spinoff of everything. There was always a safe zone. There was always an outlet. There was always just tying material. There were several times. I mean, you mentioned the thing earlier. That was the first thing I ever heard about that. There was a giant sideshow collectible. So it was like there was plenty of times where it's like the toy informed me. Oh, that's a thing.

[01:33:28] You know, it's like but I wasn't part of the first run of that popular movie or show. It's like so it's even funnier just looking at what execs had all these successes but didn't understand why it was a success. It's like, well, start taking note, buddy. There was a there's a great book. Everyone should read Hardman in difficult times. And it just talks about all these edgy groundbreaking writing shows.

[01:33:55] And it's just so funny how they talk about just all the different shows that broke new terrain at HBO and how the executives did not understand the sketch show. Mr. Show with Bob and David. And I'm like, oh, my God, that was a great show. Now I'm just like, please tell me those execs do now get it now that they've seen the success and actually seen it. And I'm like, if they don't get it, then I don't know what to tell you. It's like you should know.

[01:34:23] It's kind of like when you tell people, please reread this passage before telling me to, you know, rewrite this. It's like what is not what is that? I would advise against that. But sometimes if you just ignore the note, they'll forget about it the next time. Yes. It's the dangerous thing because sometimes they're paying attention and go, hey, where's my note? Right. But sometimes if you change two words and don't really change what they told you to do, as long as it feels different, they're OK. They're there because they always try to solve it for you.

[01:34:53] And that's not their job is to say, I don't like this. Their job isn't to say, why don't you put this in or have this character? Right. They need to trust the writer. That's the other thing, too. You see these people who burn bridges, but often if they just said yes, but didn't actually carry it out, no one paid any attention to that. They just were like, oh, so-and-so's idea went to fruition. It's like, yeah, they'll get the credit, but they didn't have anything to do with this.

[01:35:17] I was watching The Bank Dick on TV the other day, and W.C. Fields had a lot of trouble with censors, especially because he had a place in the story. The bar that he went to was the Black Pussy Cafe. And his office said, you absolutely cannot call this the Black Pussy Cafe. You can call it the Black Pussy Cat. And that was the sign that they painted on the door. But every line of dialogue, the Black Pussy Cafe.

[01:35:46] So he ignored them, and he got away with it. There you go. As long as it's the on-screen visual word is different. I guess they were counting on people reading instead of listening. That's so funny. I think that's the other thing, too. What I see versus what I got. Yeah. Yeah. But I have so many people who I've seen teach writing workshops. Have you ever been tempted to do something like that in your neck of the woods?

[01:36:16] Do like a writer's writing? You know, not so much. I've done a few writing workshops where I've, and I used to do like script analysis and things like that. What I would really like to do, and I kind of wish I had gotten my master's when I was out of college, because I would love to teach film. I would love to just come in and just take them from, like, the silent days up through the modern and just acquaint them with all of these incredible talents that worked in films beyond.

[01:36:45] I just feel like that's the one thing, if I could change my life or do something over again, it would be that, to spend some time teaching. That's neat. Oh, and especially because I think people of your caliber would be way more accessible because you've navigated different avenues. So you would definitely have many questions for people who are like, I want to write a video game or I want to write manga that's going to then get adapted if this still goes through into an anime series. Or how do I write a cartoon?

[01:37:12] I'm not really into them, but I want to do something that, you know, my 10-year-old can watch, but I don't have any contacts at, you know, Disney and Warner Brothers. So what do I do? Well, you know the old theory that it takes 10,000 hours to get good at anything. So my feeling is always write, write, write, write, write, write, write the worst junk you can, then tear it up and throw it away and rewrite it. You have to. Because eventually you'll get good. You have, and you got to put it in front of people.

[01:37:40] There was one time where I was in a writer's class and these guys were being urchins. They were getting so bogged down. And because I just was putting just little small things that you don't have to put down to character names, what have you. It was like, OK, I need you to focus on the story and tell me what's good or not. But and I got some good notes. But yeah, have you ever been in a place where it's like, OK, this audience isn't being receptive, but I can already kind of tell it's not that my material doesn't make sense.

[01:38:08] It's that I'm just in the right, wrong crowd to begin with all together. You know, I can't tell him you're an idiot because I want to be hired. But also at the same time, they're just beginning so mixed up in details. I've had that with other pals. It's like, oh, well, this isn't making sense. It's like, well, you know, and I'm I'm showing him a script of a friend that, you know, we've all signed NDAs and we're giving notes. It's like, well, I need you to read the whole passage before you give them notes. It doesn't make sense. That would help, wouldn't it?

[01:38:37] I had a great one, Kyle Smith, who was a production assistant for Richard Linklater. Oh, yeah. And yeah, he had some great stuff in his screenwriting workshop. And I was like, yeah, this is the most weird getting out of all this because it's like, yeah, this not to be confused with the famous film credit was like, yeah, he was really good. It's like he would just straight up just be like, so what's working, guys? And yeah, I would see so many guys who were helpful.

[01:39:02] But then I would also see my fair share of just urchins who just wanted to just bitch, bitch, bitch. It's like you're not being helpful to anybody. It's like you need to there. It can't all just suck. There's got to be something. And so there's been plenty of times where friends have shown me a script and I've been like, I think this is workable. And you're like, well, I don't want it to be workable. Well, the stuff you're doing is very complex. I could see it working. I could also see someone not doing something well with it.

[01:39:29] It's going to really honestly depend on the execution, giving the amount of detail and how they can make this interesting. And this is nothing on you. So have you ever had to, for any kind of job, just had to tell people, I'm not talking about you right now. I'm talking about what's here and just an honest to God opinion. There's going to be stuff that's like in between. This could be a six out of 10 movie or it could be a eight out of 10. It really just depends on who adapts it. I always try to respect what they set out to write.

[01:39:59] If someone asked me for notes, I don't judge. Is this a movie I want to see? It's a case of, is this going to work for what this writer wants to accomplish? And all of my reactions I try to make as far as, okay, this doesn't get you to where you want to be. This gets you in, but you need more of this. Right. It's like you can't tell people what to want to write, but you can tell them how to write more effectively.

[01:40:29] Vango. That is the best thing we've gotten from this conversation thus far. There's been plenty of highlights of this chat. I'm glad you brought that up because that is another common thing. I would be on a amateur to indie movie and I would see a director do a total no-no, which was tell an actor how to act. And same thing with, but then they'd get all pissed off when they were telling them, hey, turn your goddamn camera on. It was like, well, it goes both ways. So it's like.

[01:40:58] Yeah, that is one thing that you have to watch. I have a brilliant writer friend who asked me to read a script and it was a brilliant script. But I said, you're writing this in dialect. It's set in the 20s. There you go. And they were writing a black dialect in the South. And I said, don't do that. Your actor knows how to do the accent. It comes across as you trying to be Mark Twain if you try to write in dialect.

[01:41:26] So once in a while you put an apostrophe in because there's a really cool way to say this. But for the most part, just write it in plain English and let the actor do his job. Let the director do their job. So that's the other thing, too, is like, yeah, give an idea of what you want. Don't tell him how to do it, because then that's when you get the accidental stuff that works even better.

[01:41:51] There is stuff that still blows my mind where I'm like, that wasn't intended or they didn't know. It's like that's how oblivious they were. It's like, well, a lot of stuff is unfortunately an accident. And it's fortunate for us because it's like, yeah, now I can coast on that. But when you become a little too self-aware, you have to then excuse yourself from stuff like that. It's like I'm telling this joke a little too soon. I'm getting too aware of this stuff. And now it's becoming stale. It's not old and fresh anymore.

[01:42:19] But yeah, now I'm glad you brought up the whole it's like don't tell a writer how to write. And that's just it. It's like. Well, you could tell a writer what not to do. But the main thing is you don't want to tell them how their script should be aimed or what they should be trying to accomplish with the script. That's that's their decision. You have to honor it. I think that's what gets mixed up. Someone is. Some of it is just plain ignorance. Some of it is a little bit of an innocent. I'm trying to be helpful. But I did it in the way you don't do it.

[01:42:47] You know, it's kind of like you don't tell your boss how to micromanage you. You know, like, whoa. That's right. Yes, sir, boss. You just say you might want to think about not pushing that guy out the window because we might need him three months down the line. But you let your boss know. Hey, I'm this reading Sun Tzu is probably not a bad idea for for people who want to work in the business, because a lot of it is, you know, you don't you don't criticize the boss.

[01:43:14] You support them and you offer them alternatives. But you don't you don't criticize the boss. Even say it a different way. I don't know. Totally. And if they're still not drinking the same water, breathing the same air, you can just say, hey, OK, cool. It's like, just move on. And I think that's the other thing, too. You get stands or Karen's. You get other people who are just so caught in on the diction. It's like, stop trying to just have the last word or even just say it exactly the same. Just let it go. Don't be a word Nazi.

[01:43:45] It's like you got it done. They're going to shut up and leave you alone now. Just think as a win, man. And but no, that is so true. It is like just don't tell people how to do their work. Tell them like just it. The equivalent of, hey, your fly is open or, you know, your car's got a flat. It's just something that is an unbreakable thing that is like that's going to rupture and impact everybody.

[01:44:13] It's like like you would a regular job where, hey, I can't do my work if I don't have this fax from you by 8 p.m. today. And it's like stuff like that. If you have to make a criticism, be prepared to have a solution. In other words, this guy sounds dumb. You should have in mind a way that that that that solution, that problem goes away. Because just just criticizing without having offering a solution is not helpful. Otherwise, they know there's a problem half the time.

[01:44:41] Otherwise, that's politics where I'm going to belittle you and get your attention, even though I don't have a solution to this. What I'm running on either is like, yeah, I don't. Don't do that. Don't be that guy. The famous thing about improv comedy is yes and. And if you can get your mind into that, then you can write comedy for anybody because that's how the comedians that you're going to be hiring for your show learn to be funny. Yes. Well, and I think this is it.

[01:45:12] It starts off as an innocent note. But you want to be able to transform it into I want to help you be better. I'm not doing this for my ego. I'm not doing this for, you know, I'm not adding extra ingredients to this. Well, already well made a good phrase to keep in mind is what if. Yes. What if he did this? What if she says that? That's a great way to without.

[01:45:38] Coming across as a know it all is is to propose an idea which people may love or they may hate. Totally. Like one. And I think the hardest part is. I've had to do this with a few other people, some of them had to unfriend politely just because they weren't open to any kind of interpretation. So I'll give you some examples of when you know you need to excuse yourself from the creative venture.

[01:46:03] If you have someone who refuses to let you read their script because they do the whole I'm afraid someone will steal it. I'm like, that's not. It's because you don't think it's good or you don't want to hear any kind of criticism. That's what it really is. Another common one is. God, I get so tired of this one is. When someone just offers a deal and then reneges on it.

[01:46:32] OK, so you weren't going to honor this to begin with. If you're. Casually fluctuating numbers, you don't just put less detail into this or that. You probably don't have any money. That's what that tells me. And you're hoping for a freebie. But what I always love telling asking people is like. And I just had this in my head, but it's it kind of goes back to, like you say, when just general reminders.

[01:47:00] And like you say, the what if is when I encounter people who a. Don't have a shot list or storyboard is like, well, then you can do a shot script if you want. List the kind of shots you want on the script paper itself. But I need something instead of I don't know. I'll let my cinematographer figure it out. Like, OK, well, that's this is already a cinematographer will wind up being the director. Yes. Or he won't do it because he's like, OK, so I'm asking a lot of questions and you don't have a vision. But yeah.

[01:47:29] But yeah, they're pretty much going to be like, OK, so let me take over because I know what I'm doing. But yeah, I my favorite part is when I see people are like, I don't want to say it out loud. I'm not an actor. I'm like, you have to you have to say the line because if you're going to cringe while you say it, then guess what? So is the best person of all time going to cringe when they're in the table read? It's like you can't you can't can't make some stinker of a line work sometimes. I'm just like, yeah, yeah, it doesn't.

[01:47:58] I read recently that that the speech that Robert Shaw gave in Jaws about the Indianapolis sinking and and all the sailors being eaten by sharks. That was originally a five page scene and and Shaw cut it down to to the length that it is in the in the in now simply because he saw that this is the heart of it. This is, you know, this the screams whenever the shark. That's a monster. And it was it was so it was a case of where it wasn't the way the writer wrote it.

[01:48:27] But at the same time, somebody else had a great idea. And and, you know, Spielberg and Carl Gottlieb and all the people who were making the film realized, yeah, that this makes it better. And everybody knows when you're making something better. A thousand percent. I get so annoyed when I see people like don't change a single word. I'm like, well. If we have a creative disagreement, someone's going to do an ad lib that's better. Take credit for that. And exactly. If it doesn't make any sense logically, guess what?

[01:48:55] You're going to have something raised and you're going to be outvoted. I've I've had that with a few other movies. And it's like, you know, if you guys are going to just argue, maybe you should just cut the scene altogether. It it's creating more questions than answers. If it's not moving the story forward. But unfortunately, you will get people who are so blinded by it's great. And it's like maybe in a different movie, but not in this one. Let's just pass on it for now. I've done that a few times before.

[01:49:22] I'm like, OK, I'm going to cut out five of these characters. And. Since no one's using it, I'm using it for my own venture. It's OK. The director in the film, the director is the boss. In TV, it's the head writer or the creator slash showrunner who is the boss. But in movies, it's the director. So that's the other thing to figure out who's in charge. It's like, OK, the shows produced by Dick Wolf and Jerry Bruckheimer, they're not writing.

[01:49:50] They're they're the money man giving the notes and negotiating with the networks is like the main other producer credited. Like, yeah, that's the head writer who's also scheduling everything and let everyone know here's what's going to happen on this. What? And that's right. But kudos to when it is some other talent who's. Worn all five hats, you know, can do all the line producing scheduling.

[01:50:20] Yeah, it's like I love all the ones who are co-producers, but all it means is they're hiring all the other cast and crew because they're like, yeah, they totally would work for this kind of show. I've worked on all five of these other shows. Yeah. And it seems like, again, that is nothing but just. Delightfulness around every corner, and I hope other people do check out your other material instead of just. Yes.

[01:50:48] Well, as I had, I got to show this one more time. I didn't do this often enough on. Memoirs of a time traveler. Please check out. Time traveler. First book is free. Yes. Check out. E-book is free, I should say. Check out his books. By all means. I hope they all check them out. And I hope all the writers who are listening to you keep writing and just just keep writing until you get it the way you want it. And then somebody else will want it. The first five pages are going to list game show Wicca.

[01:51:18] But trust me, guys, he's done more than just just that. Oh, and this was neat talking to you, my dude, because it's like kind of just went on just various different adventures. And you kind of had your pick up. This was longer than any show I've written. So you've got plenty of material. You've gone to so many resorts, but you kind of wanted to stay at many of them instead of, well, that was then. This is now. Thank you so much for asking me, Cam. I really appreciate it.

[01:51:46] We tried to get every kind of creative talent on here. There's been some where I'm like, wow, someone listened to that interview. It was like, yeah. So I was just like, hey, that's kind of the theme. It's like anyone who's worn multiple hats, let's talk about them. And let's give you a plug, but also let's let's have some creative ventures and then talk about how creative fusion happens, because sometimes even the most mundane thing that you just let out of your system is like, man, I need to do something about that in my day to day marketing business.

[01:52:13] I need to do something about this as even being a family person, you know, it's like you whatever creative inspiration you can get that just gives you that extra jolt of, you know, electricity, energy, everything. It just keeps you moving. That is really what most of us need instead of listening to a depressing report on a news channel before we end the day. It's like, yeah, it's something. No, you've got to, you've got to. I think you're right. Positivity is so important. Absolutely.

[01:52:44] A thousand percent. And I'm not saying belittle or negate awful stuff happening, but you've got to have some kind of healing energy, something to meditate to. And so, yeah, that but I do think a lot of people get all hyped up on this and it's like, well, what are the chances? I'll get a creative endeavor like that is like, well, never sell yourself short, but also never negate a possible creative outlet. You never know what it'll lead to.

[01:53:12] Like, I didn't expect to have a security day job. I have many other pals who didn't expect to work IT, but it happened where it happened. And same deal. You didn't expect to get like all these other kinds of shows and you didn't expect them. I mean, even go back to even other mundane stuff. I'm sure you didn't expect, hey, to get your car when you did become a family person. It's like, yeah, I didn't expect you to contact me. Yeah, we go.

[01:53:41] And this was really a joy because we also were just kind of mainly just kind of talking about icons and how they kind of have many factors that permeate or. A mere other current events and creative endeavors. And I think this is it. Instead of repeating history, everyone wants to meet that one person who's like, you know what? You kind of changed my world. You kind of gave me.

[01:54:08] A rare source of positivity that was just like, man, that's but it was unlike any other. So here's why we're still talking about it. Hopefully you keep touching minds. And again, I welcome the next e-book that you come up with because, you know, there's so many people who are now having loyal stuff like that. They're able to get past the red tape that involves book publishing deals now. I'll let you know when the next one comes out. OK, perfect. Now, thank you ever so much for an hour.

[01:54:39] Thank you. Two hours of your time. It was really delightful. And everyone, please check out his work. Go through his IMDb. I guarantee you, you have seen at least four of these titles, maybe 10 if you were an 80s, 90s baby. But I applaud anyone who's worn that many hats and even gotten to command some writers rooms.

[01:55:01] So, hey, keep storyboarding and keep jogging away at a story that must be released from your brain onto paper. Thank you, Ken. Follow us on the web on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. The podcast is available on Podbean, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Anchor, Apple and anywhere else podcasts are available.

[01:55:31] Feel free to review our show and leave comments on any of those sites. Thanks a million for listening. It's a Jacked Up Review Show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.