Filmmaker Michael Mann Retrospect (with Lee Russell & Caomh McGillion)

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[00:00:10] We were going to talk briefly about Michael Mann.

[00:00:59] Okay, Michael Mann. And this one's a tough one as far as picking best and worst and all of that because he has very few films and what films he does have are pretty much all borderline, borderline all-time classics, if not all-time classics. I think my favorite film of Michael Mann's is still Thief though.

[00:01:21] I think that's still his best one. Right out of the gate, he kind of...it's both kind of a proof of concept for like what his career would be. And it's just a great neo-noir. You know, you get the way he shoots the city, the way he gives you people dedicated to their craft

[00:01:41] to the point where they're obsessive-compulsive, where they're frankly unhinged maybe a bit mentally because of what they do and the drive they have for their profession. In this case, a thief. But you know, the detail-oriented side of his stuff where it's like he talked with actual criminals and learned what they would use and how they talk and what they do.

[00:02:05] It's that kind of thing that has carried him throughout his career and like made his films feel super authentic when you're watching them. You feel like, yes, I'm actually watching a real criminal. I'm watching a person who knows what they're doing. And a lot of the drama and tension is built around just the intricate details of how they're going to pull this off and then watching them do it. Because you know the stakes because his films always sort of give you the stakes.

[00:02:35] Yeah, so Thief is for me his best one still. It's just... James Caan is amazing in it. He is the protagonist that sort of defines all Michael Mann protagonists going forward for the most part. As this dedicated, single-minded, kind of crazy motherfucker who will not let anyone push him around or control him. As for Michael Mann's worst film, I'd have to say it's probably Black Hat.

[00:03:05] For me at least, the one I enjoyed the least of his is Black Hat. And not because it's a terribly made film, but like in this case a lot of the detail stuff Michael Mann kind of gets wrong. Like a lot of the world of hacking and the terminology and what they actually do in it is kind of gobbledygook. It's kind of just made up Hollywood computer stuff which gets very tiring.

[00:03:31] And it's the fact that Chris Hemsworth is cast as this uber hacker who also happens to look like a supermodel. And also happens to be as good a special forces motherfucker as you could hope to be in one of these films. He's just taking on bad guys left and right like they're nothing. And it's just the unbelievability of that.

[00:03:58] It's probably the one film Michael Mann's done where it's just so off the fucking rails with the believability. It's just... I just could not get into it. I could not believe that Chris Hemsworth was this character. It was just ridiculous. It stands out because it's like it should be just an easy cakewalk and it's ridiculous.

[00:04:24] It just... it fails on that... that initial level to like hook me in a way that a movie like that should. Um, had they cast like, uh, uh, Paul Giamatti or someone as the hacker then maybe we're talking. But, you know, Chris Hemsworth was, you know, who's just one of the most beautiful people on the planet. Um, in that role it just doesn't work. Uh, as for underrated?

[00:04:54] And here's, you know, probably the one time, um, Michael Mann really stepped out of his sort of wheelhouse. Um, that's The Keep, his second film. Uh, it's... it's a film that's plagued with a lot of production problems. It's... it's a wonky, sometimes trashy, weirdo fucking horror movie with like Nazi occultist stuff going on. And a demon and... encased in this ancient castle.

[00:05:23] And... it's pretty crazy pants. Uh, Michael Mann gets to play around with some visuals here and there that are very impressive. Um, and you know, it's still got the little Michael Mann-isms in there. Uh, even though it's not one of his, uh, crime films. This is, this is of course set in a world that's just totally unbelievable.

[00:05:43] So, in that case, I can accept it more when silly stuff happens in that movie as opposed to, like, the unbelievably of the protagonist in Black Hat. So, there you go. We were talking off air how... lately, Mann's kind of been slacking. But... all we can do is remember the good times. It's like when he really was. The gaps... I know, I know obviously, you know,

[00:06:11] he's got on in the age now and he's probably not as active as he used to be, which fair enough, you know, he's... He did a new Ferrari movie. It's like, that was supposed to be... Yeah, he did like that. Ferrari. Okay, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. It's like one... He's just like, man, you gotta stick with the... the trailers, get some interesting fuckin', you know... Like, I was out by... Like, I tapped out by the time Public Enemy's came out.

[00:06:39] Like, I'm like, why are you using this video recorder-like footage? Like, that doesn't... I didn't mind that. He was one of actually the first directors to start using high definition cameras. Like, when Soderbergh used it, but when he used it, it really did hurt my eyes to where I'm like, am I watching a student film or something? This looks awful. I like that. Yeah, I think... I think... After Public Enemy... This is the story.

[00:07:05] ...I lost interest because, like, he didn't meet Anderson for about six years, and then he met Black Hat, and then sure he didn't meet Anderson again until... Black Hat was another one where you're just like, see... I've seen so many hacker movies, this... He did literally nothing with this premise. But... Yeah. I know there's apparently a cut on it, but see, that's the other thing too, where... I'm half and half when Ridley Scott does it. I don't... I like it when James Cameron does it. I also love... Oh, when Ridley Scott does Body of Eyes?

[00:07:34] That's actually not a bad movie. Ah... It was just with Blade Runner, but like, other... Oh, yeah, yeah. ...he's had, like, American Gangster really don't make much difference. They're just extra scenes, but like... Yeah, Man apparently had one for Black Hat, and I'm like, see... I don't know what you could add to that. Like, the characters are just so blank and non-existent. Yeah. I need to... At least, like... I know we both like spy and assassin movies, and most people like to talk...

[00:08:04] Yeah. ...about them now. I'm like, all I need is the guy to have some kind of cool, like, gimmick. And even if he doesn't make use of the gimmick, at least have a cool idea. Like, he... It can be like Taken or Born Identity, or it can be like The Equalizer, where he, like... uses his army training to utilize for his spy stealth. But like, I... I guess that's just it. Like...

[00:08:29] I feel like he's gotten into that point where what he finds interesting is stuff that, like, we've known for like 20 years now. So I'm like, maybe if he had been like the first guy to discover it might be interesting. But like, even then, like... Like... I need something more, like... He used to really do Cops and Robbers so well. And then it's just kind of gotten... You know, the funniest thing is, like, like... He's an amazing movie. I've got the director's cut there on Blu-ray. It's great.

[00:08:55] But he made, like, a made-for-TV film first called L.A. Takedown. And it was like... Absolutely. It was... It was hard to watch at first. But I've re-seen it, and I'm like, see, that is the blueprint. That is... That is what became Heat. That is... He just took a look. And like, that's fucking terrible. Like, the bit where they're running down some neighborhood, and they're like... They're like, hands-pakes from each other, shitting at each other, and it's like... Oh, no! What's going on? Yeah. And I think that's just it.

[00:09:24] Like, you look at it more closely after you've re-seen Heat a dozen of times, and I have forced myself to re-watch that TV movie, and you're like... I've never watched it in Fall of the Love. I've only ever seen bits of it. I was not arse. It's not a lot of hard. It's really bad, like you say. But like, when you watch it, like, more objectively, you're like, I see why he took out that thing. That just would have been confusing. And then he added more gusto to, like, the three other members of the Vice Squad.

[00:09:54] So now we follow them a little easier. And... Because yeah, when you watch it, it's like a bad Miami Vice episode. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But with even lesser, like, there's no cool mystery solving or anything. You're just like, who's betraying who again? Okay. And I think why we still admire Man is just his ability to stand on his own two feet.

[00:10:19] Like, I still want to see a director's cut of the keep, even though we will never get that. Because he had such a bad time working on it with Paramount as X. He... And... That movie. Ah, bummer. It's kind of negative. So underwhelmed with that film. Yeah. That was his first movie, wasn't it? One of his first. He had done The Jericho Mile, which is a good sports movie. And X-Con competes as a sports runner.

[00:10:48] And then there are other movies where you watch, but you're best off seeing them only once. Like the Muhammad Ali biopic, but... Oh, yeah. I've seen that. Like, it's good, but I don't need to ever see it again. It is one of those that's so damn long and you're like, okay, got it the first time. Um, so I think he, he's a mixture of Ridley Scott, where he takes stuff that on paper sounds generic

[00:11:13] and makes it somehow a mixture of style and just cool, like spectacle. And then there's other ones where you're like, hey, I, you should have gone in and rewritten it just so it was more your style. But like, Collateral for instance, shouldn't have worked at all. You had Stuart Beatty who had come up with like the story for like Pirates of the Caribbean. And it got rewritten by Zorro guys and same deal here.

[00:11:42] Like, apparently, even though he's the credited writer, like there was a lot of plot holes. So it Frank Darabont of Shawshank Redemption. And Elm Street free fame. Yeah, Green Mile, the Stephen King adapter, he punched up all the dialogue and scenarios and he's. And so. When I look at that movie now, it holds together pretty well. It's just like that last five minutes on the subway where you're like, that doesn't happen in real life.

[00:12:11] There's no way you can get on to something like that. Yeah. But for the most part, it holds together. I think the ending is pretty plausible because, you know, there's bound to be a day where like. Or it's like going to be half empty or whatever, or, you know, quiet. Yes. So, you know, I'm sure it's. Well, I'm talking about getting on to them. Hmm. Like the doors are not easy to unlock.

[00:12:40] Well, you know, the subway is probably still going. It's just fucking, you know. What do I know? You know, I need to look into it. I think you're just looking into it a bit too much, man. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. The worst part about fucking Clatterin is Jada Pinkett Smith because she's a shy doctor. Oh, really? Yeah. I thought this was both. She was okay here, I think. But I do feel like you could recast her or Jamie Foxx.

[00:13:09] They're good, but they're not at their best. And I think Jamie Foxx is really good. I think he's good, but it's it's one of those roles like. Like anyone could play it. Like he didn't. Oh, yeah. Like that. I felt like. You could get anyone in that, like it could be Will Smith. It could be Denzel. It could be. Any other actor. And now Tom Cruise, like I know he's a dipshit in real life, but same deal.

[00:13:39] Like my man is very much like Ridley and Scorsese and Spielberg, where he's able to get these unusual performances out of. And actors who otherwise, you know, can't go there. Somehow, like it's kind of like seeing Denzel be evil and training day or Keanu Reeves as a bad cop turned anti hero and street kings. You're like, where did that performance come from? I mean, that Damon being a bad apple departed, you know, just that same kind of what the hell.

[00:14:09] That's awesome. Where did that performance come from? I mean, yeah. Seeing actors grow is just so good. And man, fortunately, has a lot of that. Like, I mean, if anything. I mean. Your boy Colin Farrell. I like I feel like he and Jamie Foxx matured a bit when they did the Miami Vice movie, but it wasn't a good adaptation of the show or. I actually like that from but I think the biggest issue is there's too much talking and not enough things happening.

[00:14:40] Oh, there was that like, I was half and half on it when I first saw it. Then I re-saw it again on when it premiered on cable. And then I saw the director's cut. And I think that's just that there's too much a lot clutter. And the action is just like, again, like that shaky cam. I just can't get over it. But yeah, the shaky cam. Do you recommend the TV show? Because that's kind of where he got his name. Like you see a lot of his themes and the camera.

[00:15:09] He also wanted Star Scam Hatch as well, didn't he? The original TV show. Yep. He got his start. Yeah. Being the spec script guy kind of guy. And I still need to see his HBO show luck, which was about like horse gambling. Luck. That was a show that started just enough. Yeah, I heard about that one is bad actually. That was one of those like it. You know, you you team up with David Milch. So NYB to blue and Edwin fame.

[00:15:37] And long story short, two great minds. But they don't get along at all. Like so I got to where Milch is a perfectionist man is a perfectionist. So Milch is like running his mouth as the producer on set. And man is like, well, I'm also a producer. So since this is also my set, you're banned from being on set while we're filming. And it was one of those. It was a good concept. And unfortunately, horses kept getting.

[00:16:07] Kill had to keep being put down because of their injuries sustained during filming. So HBO didn't want to take the heat off for Fox. Sick. I know you're just like, good grief. And. What the fuck? Like. So I still need to see. Have you seen any of his Tokyo? It's no that's on Max. What's it called? Tokyo Vice. No, I was. What's that about? He did that. Show he's helming. So.

[00:16:39] Great things that is return to form. So maybe that's the thing. Maybe he needs to keep collaborating more with people. But this is going to be like Miami Vice, but in Tokyo, is it? Yeah, I guess. But I don't. That's the other thing, too. Like when he does a movie, he is comfortable picking a different kind of style at times. Yeah, I think that is interesting to him. Like you would never like. And I think that's the beauty of it.

[00:17:07] If you haven't seen any of his cops and robbers movies. If you never cared for or saw Miami Vice, then you've at least seen the Muhammad Ali biopic. You've seen less than the Mohicans. You know, you've seen. Yeah. Things in Miami Vice. It was not really on town. He had like, you know, fucking whatchamacallit Knight Rider and shit. And he was never really saw any. I mean, that was another one. I hated it growing up, but I've re-seen it in recent years.

[00:17:37] And I do like it. Oh, Miami Vice, the show. And it was one of those like. Once you get past the datedness, you can see why it was a big thing. And yeah. And when you look at his other shows that he's done, like Drug Wars, the Camarena story and robbery, homicide division, you can understand why. That's the problem. They're so damn obscure due to all the music that he uses in his movies.

[00:18:03] But when you see why he collaborated numerous times with Dennis Farina, Tom Sizemore, Danny Trejo, John Leguizamo, Marvin Peebles and Cucino. You know, I mean, like, look at the insider. Like, it's not a. I think you'd like that one. It's it's a whistleblower type thriller. Yeah, I know what it's kind of what the premise is, but I've just never got around watching something like a cigarette.

[00:18:32] It's one of those one of those I dug the acting. It's not one I love watching right away, but if you put it on when you're really in the mood for a slow burn, you really do appreciate like just the all star cast. Steven Toblowski, Gina Gershon, Christopher Plummer. And. It's just stacked cast. And there's been so many great. He's a fucking great actor as well. Yeah, I know.

[00:19:00] And I always thought he was just going to be the deliberately annoying or wacky guy, but he's come a long way and played all kinds of people from sickos to amusing bosses to other straight face comedy. You know, it's just and. I think the insider is interesting because it just was talking about the, you know, tobacco and cigarette industries and the unethical nature of the health risk and everything.

[00:19:23] And I think it's interesting that man got to work, you know, he got to work with Al Pacino once again, stretching himself in a good guy role. But then you see him working with, you know, Russell Crowe and you're like, man, I had no idea that guy could do that kind of role, you know, and that's a year before Gladiator. Yeah.

[00:19:44] And you and I love our share of our tough guy actors, but it's just amazing when they go to such another like vulnerable kind of role. I mean, and so I think the outs, the insider is underrated in that I think had he not done that, I don't think we would have seen the Russell Crowe that we later saw and stuff like a beautiful mind. If that makes sense. It's this kind of real life biopic. Oh, the L.A.

[00:20:14] Confidential, same deal. Yeah, I don't think had he done that, I don't think he would have gone to the next five stages of his career, you know, playing all these. Yeah, yeah, that's that's probably one of I think that's probably one of guys pierces best movies. And I'm starting to think of one of. Yeah, Guy Pierce was amazing. And I introduced fun fact, I introduced my grandmother to. Memento, but like, oh, nice.

[00:20:44] I pierce is one of those like you if you've seen Priscilla Queen of the Desert or the King's Speech or even that. I've never seen Priscilla Queen of the Desert. I would have heard of it. I think you dig it. But like he's guy is another guy who is like the pun and you're like, where did that performance come from and how is he so good? Yeah.

[00:21:09] And just what would you like to see him do in the future since he's gotten always like attached to like seven different projects and he's always able to make something that. And he's always got something cooking, even if it's not 100 percent or doesn't sound great. I would mind like I do like a bit of corporate espionage. So I would mind something like that. A different kind of. Yeah, like do the spy thriller shit, except, you know, avoid the hacking.

[00:21:38] I'm sick of fucking hacking. Yeah, especially when you're going to use it in a way where you're like, I'm sorry how it works in real life. It doesn't. Yeah, I feel like, you know. There are many great stories out there to be told, but like people just like Hollywood just seems to want to remake shit. And then they release something like like Black Hat could have been good, but it's just like it took forever for something to happen. And then something did happen.

[00:22:06] Like, you know, you're expecting more and they just feel underwhelmed. No, I think he was a load of shite. Like he need if there's one thing I must complain about him and he does it in all his movies. It's his exposition. And sometimes like he's so in love with an actor playing a role so convincingly. And I'm like, dude, I've seen so many movies. It's just the same damn thing all over again. I need you to really. Yeah, you love the sound.

[00:22:37] Like thinking about now, like public enemy is good for them, but the whole fucking ending is with shit. It's just lazy writing. I wouldn't mind it if he. I mean, I still got to read the Heat 2 book that he did. That's like both a prequel and a sequel. Yeah, yeah. They're trying to make a movie out of that now. I don't have any support now, but sure. I don't know. Especially when you give it away, how it begins and ends. Yeah, it's like. Yeah. See, this is the thing.

[00:23:04] It's sure I have a prequel is when you do it about main character. You already know a main character dies. What's the point of the prequel? Because you're going in still knowing that he's going to die. Like all this is kind of pointless. Yes, sir. Is it Adam Driver playing fucking Al Pacino? Yeah, they're all like training or something.

[00:23:30] And yeah, I'm like, I, however, I would rather just be a separate vice squad. Like there's a big enough world for you to develop. Hey. Hey, whatever. I'll. I'll keep my fingers crossed. We'll return after these messages. If you like small town mystery, crazy news, and wild history, then the Florida Men on Florida Man podcast is for you.

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