EMDR, Ayahuasca, and Some Serious F%cking Healing with Brooke Spahn

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[00:01:05] Hello, hello, all of my beautiful freaking people. Welcome back to another episode of FML Talk. This episode today is wildly interesting from my guests to how it came about to how we first met. It's pretty incredible. I was fascinated the entire time. We are digging into EMDR therapy today. Sit back, grab your journals, and welcome to FML Talk.

[00:01:30] Oh my God. Wait, how old was the other girl?

[00:01:32] 19. Can you believe that?

[00:01:33] Hey, this is Gabrielle Stone.

[00:01:35] Good book?

[00:01:36] I did not know.

[00:01:37] True.

[00:01:37] He did what?

[00:01:38] 48 hours?

[00:01:39] What a dick.

[00:01:40] Yeah, but have you seen all the photos on our Instagram?

[00:01:43] Come on.

[00:01:43] And this is FML Talk.

[00:01:45] Oh no, she didn't.

[00:01:47] All right, y'all. We are in for a treat today. This episode is wildly interesting. I was like fascinated the entire time I could have talked for hours to my guests today.

[00:01:57] And we have an interesting way that we came to know each other back in the day. Brooke Spahn is a licensed marriage and family therapist who does a lot of EMDR therapy.

[00:02:10] And it's something that I've been interested in for a really long time but have never fully understood nor had the opportunity to pick someone's brain about.

[00:02:18] And it's pretty fucking fascinating.

[00:02:21] I do want to give a little bit of a trigger warning. We are talking a lot about death and different traumas that people have gone through.

[00:02:28] Any trigger warning, we kind of cover all of it, but they're very briefly touched upon. We're not really digging into any of the specifics.

[00:02:36] But it's a really interesting look at a different type of therapy that isn't talk therapy, that is more streamlined to whatever you are trying to accomplish, heal, work on, or remember.

[00:02:53] It's a wild way how Brooke first met me. We're going way back in the day. So I'm excited for you guys to hear this episode.

[00:03:01] There's so much good stuff in it. So let's dig in.

[00:03:08] Brooke Spahn, welcome to FML Talk. I'm so glad our mom schedules finally worked out so we could sit down to do this.

[00:03:15] After canceling so many times.

[00:03:17] Oh my God.

[00:03:17] Sick kids, juggling.

[00:03:19] It's ridiculous.

[00:03:21] Your bonus daughter's schedule.

[00:03:21] Yeah. It's insane.

[00:03:22] And every time we were like, we got to push, we got to push, we got to do this. And here we are.

[00:03:28] I'm also staring at the baby monitor to see when I have to wake up and put a boob in my kid's mouth.

[00:03:32] But we made it and we did it and we're here and we're thriving.

[00:03:34] Yes, we are. I walk in and there's a spidget thinner on there.

[00:03:39] You're like, I found the right place.

[00:03:40] Yeah, I'm here with the kids.

[00:03:42] Okay, so before we talk about like all your credentials and what it is you do and what today's episode is going to be, because I'm really excited about that.

[00:03:49] Tell everyone how you know me.

[00:03:51] Okay. So the very first time I saw you was at your high school sweetheart's memorial.

[00:03:59] And I think it was at Stoner Park, was it?

[00:04:02] It was the, I don't know like the name of the park, but it was at the, I want to say it was Lazy J Park.

[00:04:06] It was Lazy J Park.

[00:04:07] Yeah.

[00:04:08] It was Lazy J Park.

[00:04:08] And I just remember, I don't think I'll ever forget because I dated him in seventh grade.

[00:04:14] So wild.

[00:04:15] Seventh or eighth grade.

[00:04:16] I can't remember which one as like a first, you know, boyfriend.

[00:04:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:04:20] I love it.

[00:04:21] And I remember and he was just a doll and he was a bad boy.

[00:04:26] Total bad boy.

[00:04:28] He was a doll and so good looking.

[00:04:31] So good looking.

[00:04:31] And I, but I remember, I'd never forget you were like standing up there.

[00:04:35] I think you spoke.

[00:04:36] Yeah, I did.

[00:04:37] And I just, I'll never forget that because I'm like, she must be in so much fucking pain.

[00:04:42] Yeah.

[00:04:42] It's so wild.

[00:04:43] I actually, I'm writing about him more in depth in the new book that I'm working on

[00:04:49] right now.

[00:04:49] And I just went through a bunch of old letters that I kept from him, like that we would write

[00:04:53] back and forth in high school.

[00:04:55] And my speech for his memorial was in there.

[00:04:57] And I so vividly remember getting up to do that and not being able to like breathe, like

[00:05:04] my throat closed and it went so weird.

[00:05:06] And it was such a like sense memory for me.

[00:05:09] It was really fucking crazy.

[00:05:11] I, I, it's a, that's the first time I saw you.

[00:05:14] And then I remember we all went back to their house afterwards.

[00:05:17] Yeah.

[00:05:18] But I just remember thinking of like how much pain, cause you guys were together for a while.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:23] Um, we were together for like, I mean, in high school, what felt like fucking forever.

[00:05:27] Totally.

[00:05:27] Um, I think it was like two years on and off and then a year in college on and off, which

[00:05:33] is just fucking bananas.

[00:05:35] Yeah.

[00:05:35] So that's how I, and then I don't remember where I was, but then I read, eat, pray.

[00:05:41] I don't remember what I was doing, but I read it and I was like, wait, I was like, that's

[00:05:48] his, that's Josh's girlfriend.

[00:05:51] And then I was like, I love this book.

[00:05:53] Then I read the religious misadventures and I loved them both.

[00:05:56] Oh.

[00:05:57] And they spoke to my therapy brain.

[00:05:58] Cause you, you actually speak to a lot of therapeutic interventions in your book.

[00:06:02] Yeah.

[00:06:02] You know, I appreciate you saying that.

[00:06:04] I have had a couple of people reach out to me and be like, my therapist recommended that

[00:06:09] I read your book.

[00:06:10] And I'm like, I love that.

[00:06:11] You really, especially in the first book, there's a lot of therapeutic learning and

[00:06:15] interventions in it.

[00:06:16] I thought it was really good.

[00:06:17] Thanks dude.

[00:06:18] I appreciate that.

[00:06:18] Well, full circle.

[00:06:19] So happy you're here and I can't wait to really dig into what this episode is going to be.

[00:06:24] So let's get into it.

[00:06:25] Okay.

[00:06:26] So let's just start with telling everybody kind of like what it is that you do, how you

[00:06:30] came to do this work and kind of what we're going to be talking about today.

[00:06:33] Sure.

[00:06:34] So I've been in practice for 10 years, been licensed for 10 years, practicing 11.

[00:06:39] I was in undergrad and I majored in Spanish and French, but I minored in psychology and

[00:06:45] I always knew I wanted to go to grad school, but I wasn't exactly sure.

[00:06:48] And then I just was sure.

[00:06:50] I'm like, all right, I'm going to go for psychology.

[00:06:52] So I had not the greatest experience in grad school, but when I was in grad school, no,

[00:07:03] it was when I was in college, like a big childhood trauma service.

[00:07:06] My sister kind of reminded me of a big childhood trauma service.

[00:07:09] And so when I was 19, my mom, who's like always ahead of the ball with everything, was

[00:07:15] like, I think you should try something called EMDR.

[00:07:17] So this is back in, okay, so I can't do math, but let's call it, I graduated college 2010.

[00:07:24] I graduated early.

[00:07:25] So let's call it like 2009, 2010, around that time.

[00:07:30] I did EMDR, which is like really early.

[00:07:32] Yeah.

[00:07:33] And it did such wonders for me and it completely changed my perspective.

[00:07:37] It completely changed my thinking.

[00:07:39] It also completely shifted the trauma and it was like, I remembered what happened, but

[00:07:45] it didn't give me that same like gut reaction.

[00:07:48] Right.

[00:07:49] And my core beliefs around myself were no longer there.

[00:07:52] Oh, interesting.

[00:07:53] So when you get licensed, it goes, you go to grad school, you become what's called a trainee,

[00:07:57] then you become an intern and then you're licensed.

[00:07:59] So trainees, like you're fresh off, fresh off grad school.

[00:08:03] I got trained in EMDR in 2012.

[00:08:05] So right when I was a trainee, so it was like all licensed people in the room.

[00:08:10] And I was like this little baby getting trained in EMDR because I knew I wanted to use it in

[00:08:13] my practice.

[00:08:13] So I've been practicing 10, 11 years.

[00:08:16] My private practice is currently in Eora.

[00:08:20] My main specialty is eating disorders, trauma and addiction.

[00:08:24] And using EMDR to treat both of those.

[00:08:28] Okay.

[00:08:28] Interesting.

[00:08:29] Yeah.

[00:08:29] And then I'll have people that come and are just like, I was in a car accident and I'm

[00:08:33] afraid to drive up on the highway.

[00:08:35] Right.

[00:08:35] Can I do EMDR?

[00:08:36] Right.

[00:08:36] So it can be any big T or little T.

[00:08:38] Yeah.

[00:08:38] We call them big traumas, little traumas.

[00:08:40] Yeah.

[00:08:40] And I've been using EMDR for 10 or 11 years in my practice.

[00:08:43] And it's a short term therapy, but it's a large part of my practice and people see incredible

[00:08:50] results.

[00:08:50] So they'll like do talk therapy for like 20 years.

[00:08:53] Right.

[00:08:53] And they come in and do like six sessions of EMDR.

[00:08:55] They're like, what the fuck just happened?

[00:08:56] Right.

[00:08:57] That's fascinating.

[00:08:57] Okay.

[00:08:58] So before we get into like what EMDR actually is, when you went in with your trauma to do

[00:09:03] it before you went through all the process, were you aware of it or did that bring it

[00:09:08] to the forefront?

[00:09:09] So I was aware of the trauma, but I didn't remember.

[00:09:12] There was like some specifics I didn't remember.

[00:09:15] And so when I went in, all these specifics came up like really big and like some flashbacks

[00:09:21] came up.

[00:09:21] And so like it kind of unearthed, it sort of took subconscious and brought it to conscious.

[00:09:25] And then I was like, oh, now I'm fucking angry.

[00:09:29] Okay.

[00:09:30] That's scary to me.

[00:09:32] It's a kind of loss of control in a lot of ways.

[00:09:35] Yeah.

[00:09:36] And like how.

[00:09:37] Okay.

[00:09:37] So when the memories come up, is it.

[00:09:40] I know a lot of people say this, but I don't know if I want to remember.

[00:09:43] Right.

[00:09:43] But like, do you question those memories or are you like, oh no, that's a fact?

[00:09:47] Well, the body keeps a score, right?

[00:09:51] Uh-huh.

[00:09:51] Okay.

[00:09:51] So if I'm remembering something, it's coming from somewhere.

[00:09:55] Yeah.

[00:09:55] And this is, I can explain this when I explain EMDR, but like how memories are stored.

[00:09:59] Right.

[00:10:00] That's how we also know they're real.

[00:10:01] Like sometimes we'll remember.

[00:10:03] I'll never forget when I was in my trainee, this, the teacher was talking about this woman

[00:10:07] constantly had this aversion to the color red.

[00:10:09] Uh-huh.

[00:10:10] And just like hated the color red, hated the color red.

[00:10:12] And she was like, this is the weirdest thing.

[00:10:14] Yeah, random.

[00:10:14] So she went and did EMDR and realized that she was abused by her uncle and the sheets were

[00:10:20] red every time when she.

[00:10:22] What the fuck?

[00:10:22] Yeah.

[00:10:23] Okay.

[00:10:23] So it's like it unearths a lot, but like your EMDR clinician grounds you.

[00:10:28] Right.

[00:10:29] And you feel relief.

[00:10:30] You don't just leave and are like, cool things for fucking opening me up.

[00:10:33] Go have a nice day.

[00:10:35] I mean, sometimes that'll happen, right?

[00:10:37] Right.

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[00:13:27] We're all out of the ordinary.

[00:13:33] All right, wait.

[00:13:34] Before we dive into that, let's get what is EMDR?

[00:13:37] Okay, eye movement desensitization reprocessing.

[00:13:40] Okay, in English.

[00:13:43] So basically, when we have trauma, right?

[00:13:48] So we have the left side of our brain and the right side of our brain.

[00:13:51] When we have trauma, the left side of our brain shuts down, because usually those talk, right?

[00:13:56] The left side of the brain shuts down, the right side of the brain overactivates, and

[00:14:00] now the trauma's stuck because we've stopped communicating.

[00:14:04] Left side and right side have stopped communicating.

[00:14:06] And it gets stuck in our brain.

[00:14:08] It gets stuck in our nervous system, our autonomic nervous system.

[00:14:11] So what EMDR does, it bilaterally stimulates.

[00:14:14] So it's eye movement, meaning we move your eyes.

[00:14:18] So if people could see me, you would follow my fingers.

[00:14:21] I don't use fingers.

[00:14:22] I use these tacks.

[00:14:23] Yeah.

[00:14:23] But that make your eyes move.

[00:14:25] Okay.

[00:14:25] So the bilateral stimulates the right side of your brain, left side of your brain, left

[00:14:28] side of your brain.

[00:14:29] Because what we're trying to do is make the left side come back on.

[00:14:33] So the left side of the brain, the right side of the brain can talk to unstop the trauma.

[00:14:38] Interesting.

[00:14:39] Yeah.

[00:14:39] Okay.

[00:14:40] And then are you in kind of like a meditative state at all?

[00:14:44] I'm not in a meditative state.

[00:14:45] However, a lot of people close their eyes because I use something that buzzes in your

[00:14:48] hands.

[00:14:49] Oh, so you can like do it with your eyes closed.

[00:14:52] Like I have people lie down on the couch and have the buzzers in their hands.

[00:14:56] And while I'm walking them through the protocol, they're seeing their eyes closed, buzzers in

[00:14:59] hands.

[00:15:00] Okay.

[00:15:00] How long is a session?

[00:15:02] I do them.

[00:15:03] You can do 50 minutes or 90 minutes.

[00:15:06] I can clear people in 50 minutes.

[00:15:08] Okay.

[00:15:08] And when you say I can clear people, like what does that mean?

[00:15:10] I can clear the memory.

[00:15:11] So let's say, let's go with, I mean, we can choose any exam, but like, let's, okay,

[00:15:16] let's go with my trauma, for example.

[00:15:18] Okay.

[00:15:19] So my trauma was memories of my stepbrother.

[00:15:21] Okay.

[00:15:21] When I was young.

[00:15:24] So my memories, so let's say, and I can walk you through the protocol a little bit, but

[00:15:28] let's say my memories had a core belief that was stuck.

[00:15:31] That was like, I'm gross.

[00:15:32] Right?

[00:15:33] So all the memories and images and pictures I have that were stuck up here around, I'm

[00:15:39] gross and around the trauma come up and come out.

[00:15:42] So I'll say them in session, like, cause a clinician says like, what are you noticing

[00:15:45] after each set of this, the bilateral stimulation?

[00:15:49] Yeah.

[00:15:49] And I'll say like, I'm noticing.

[00:15:51] So what came up for me was my stepbrother became, and this is, this is the cool thing.

[00:15:56] A lot of people akin it to ayahuasca, which I've never done.

[00:15:59] That's so fucking weird.

[00:16:00] When you said that, I was like, it's almost like, you know, people are afraid to do ayahuasca

[00:16:04] because it brings all those like fucked up memories up.

[00:16:06] I have so many clients that say it's a kin to ayahuasca.

[00:16:09] Interesting.

[00:16:09] I haven't done it either, but like, I know a lot about it, but that's so interesting.

[00:16:12] But it's this like concept of like all the memories and feelings and images around the

[00:16:16] thing you're targeting.

[00:16:18] So I've been targeting my stepbrother come up and come out.

[00:16:20] Yeah.

[00:16:20] So eventually, and what he was showing up as in my EMDR experience was that he was, I

[00:16:26] was in a like Mario Kart game and he was Bowser and he was trying to, yeah.

[00:16:30] That's wild.

[00:16:31] And he was like, I was trying to beat him, but I couldn't beat him.

[00:16:34] And then finally I beat him.

[00:16:36] Yeah.

[00:16:37] And I was like, when, when then we circled back to like, okay, when you think of him,

[00:16:42] what comes up now?

[00:16:43] I'm like, it's really distant.

[00:16:46] So it brings, basically think of like, it brings your subconscious and like to the surface,

[00:16:51] comes up and comes out and we reinstall.

[00:16:54] So instead of I'm gross, I'd reinstall like I'm safe.

[00:16:58] I'm fine as I am.

[00:16:59] Right.

[00:17:00] Okay.

[00:17:01] Interesting.

[00:17:02] Wow.

[00:17:03] Okay.

[00:17:03] So let's talk a few seasons ago on the show.

[00:17:06] I had my nanny growing up come on, um, who was there the day that my dad died.

[00:17:14] Oh, wow.

[00:17:14] Um, and so we talked about that whole day from her perspective, which was obviously wildly

[00:17:20] different than like the flash memories that I had in my head.

[00:17:24] Yeah.

[00:17:24] I had a very specific memory of racing into his room to go be like, let's watch cartoons

[00:17:30] and then seeing him on the bathroom floor and then racing back to Kristen and being like,

[00:17:37] daddy, daddy passed out and watching her like dash towards me and then going to my room.

[00:17:41] Because you didn't clock what was happening.

[00:17:42] No, I thought he fainted.

[00:17:44] And I was six, like almost seven at the time.

[00:17:47] This was like a month before I turned seven.

[00:17:49] And then she sits down for this episode and we start talking about all these things.

[00:17:54] And I'm sure over the years, my mom has mentioned this to me, but for whatever reason, it hit

[00:17:59] when I heard it from her.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:01] And I called my mom and she's like, yeah, you don't remember.

[00:18:04] Like I, my mom was in New Zealand filming a movie and she obviously was in communication

[00:18:09] with Kristen.

[00:18:10] She's like, I'm really sorry to ask you to do this.

[00:18:12] Kristen was like 21 or 22 at the time, which is like insane to me.

[00:18:15] She's like, but I need you to take Gabrielle in to go say goodbye to her dad.

[00:18:19] Um, so Kristen like walked me back into the bathroom and asked the paramedics to wait and

[00:18:24] put her hand on him and was like, he's not here anymore, but like, this is still daddy.

[00:18:29] So what do you want to say to him?

[00:18:30] And like, I have zero recollection of that.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:34] That's not surprising to me at all.

[00:18:35] Yeah.

[00:18:35] And so I was like, when I hear or heard all this for the first time, I was like, oh, was

[00:18:39] that the first time that my little six year old brain disassociated and was like, no, we're

[00:18:43] not doing this.

[00:18:44] That's exactly what happened.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:45] So I, now as an adult, your left side shut down, right side over activated.

[00:18:50] Yeah.

[00:18:51] Yeah.

[00:18:51] And so now I look at the situation as an adult and I'm like, okay, I'm aware that that happened.

[00:18:56] Yeah.

[00:18:56] But why do I have the flash memories of her shooting past me and being in my room after,

[00:19:04] but I don't have that memory of that.

[00:19:07] It's like, is it because I was so young and it's spotty or because like my brain was like,

[00:19:12] no bitch, we're not doing this.

[00:19:13] Your brain was like, no bitch, we're not doing this.

[00:19:15] It remembers things that are tangible to you, right?

[00:19:18] It remembers things that are little teas.

[00:19:21] It remembers little traumas.

[00:19:22] So it remembers like shooting past her.

[00:19:24] It's like, so it remembers a feeling of probably panic.

[00:19:27] Right.

[00:19:27] Because right.

[00:19:27] I imagine the first, when you, you thought he passed out and you felt what?

[00:19:31] Do you remember?

[00:19:32] I'm sure like scared.

[00:19:33] Right.

[00:19:34] Yeah.

[00:19:34] So there's a difference between scared and like, I don't understand what's happening and I'm panicking.

[00:19:40] Right.

[00:19:40] Right.

[00:19:41] Because if you think about it from like, okay, so let's do a little more like trauma psychotherapy.

[00:19:46] So our brains, right.

[00:19:48] When I said like the left side shuts down, when we experience a trauma, we go into one

[00:19:53] of three states, you know, fight, fight, or freeze.

[00:19:55] Right.

[00:19:56] But if our brain shuts down when there's like big T's, which sounds like happened, we actually

[00:20:02] go into what's called a mammalian brain, which is fight, fight, or freeze.

[00:20:05] So mammals like animals fight, fight, or they freeze.

[00:20:09] Well, there's fawn also now, but it sounds like you probably froze.

[00:20:15] You weren't fighting and you weren't fleeing.

[00:20:17] Right.

[00:20:18] It sounds like you probably froze.

[00:20:19] Right.

[00:20:19] And then past that, it's called reptilian brain.

[00:20:22] And you think about what a reptile looks like.

[00:20:23] It's like just sits there.

[00:20:25] Yeah.

[00:20:25] That's like, we have no memory and we, it's really hard to bring up memory, but you have

[00:20:30] once, once that memory was brought to you, can you picture it at all?

[00:20:34] A little.

[00:20:34] Yeah.

[00:20:35] A little.

[00:20:35] So you wanted some mammalian brain.

[00:20:36] At that point, you're like, okay, but am I making that up in my head because I know

[00:20:41] the setting and the scenario or is that actually a memory?

[00:20:46] So.

[00:20:47] It's hard to question yourself like that.

[00:20:48] Yeah.

[00:20:48] So then I had a, I had my therapist on a couple episodes after that.

[00:20:53] And I was like, pretty much explained that whole scenario and was like, is that a memory

[00:20:58] that I should go?

[00:20:59] And she's like, I don't necessarily think that you should go searching to dig up memories

[00:21:04] if there's not something.

[00:21:06] No.

[00:21:07] That's wrong.

[00:21:07] If there's something that's wrong and you're dealing with some type of thing that you think

[00:21:11] needs to like, it needs to be brought to the surface to be healed.

[00:21:13] She's like, that's different.

[00:21:14] Well, you're bringing up a really good point when you initially said that scares the shit

[00:21:17] out of me.

[00:21:17] Right.

[00:21:18] Right.

[00:21:18] Okay.

[00:21:19] We only want to heal a trauma if it's currently impacting our life.

[00:21:23] So like, like you were writing in your book.

[00:21:26] I can't remember which book now, but when you were writing in your book about,

[00:21:29] like, I was scared that if I loved Tay.

[00:21:32] Yeah.

[00:21:33] That he would leave me.

[00:21:34] Yeah.

[00:21:34] Right.

[00:21:35] So that's dad trauma.

[00:21:36] Right.

[00:21:36] Right.

[00:21:37] So back then it might've benefited you to do EMDR.

[00:21:41] Okay.

[00:21:41] Because it was benefiting your ability to like intimately connect in that way.

[00:21:46] Yeah.

[00:21:46] Okay.

[00:21:47] But it would be no use now.

[00:21:48] So what about like having intrusive thoughts that he, Tay is going to die because he's older?

[00:21:54] Then you probably.

[00:21:54] Or my kids.

[00:21:55] You probably utilize EMDR.

[00:21:57] Okay.

[00:21:58] Yeah.

[00:21:58] In that specific memory.

[00:22:00] In that specific memory.

[00:22:01] Interesting.

[00:22:02] You probably wouldn't need to do it.

[00:22:03] I mean, look, there's intrusive.

[00:22:05] When you have a kid, intrusive thoughts come up.

[00:22:07] I have.

[00:22:07] Like that's a reality because there's a new life that you never knew you cared this much

[00:22:12] about.

[00:22:12] Right.

[00:22:13] Is on this planet.

[00:22:14] Right.

[00:22:14] But the fact that you still have sort of like, I'll just call it death trauma.

[00:22:18] Yeah.

[00:22:19] Yeah.

[00:22:19] You probably could.

[00:22:20] I mean, that started with Josh.

[00:22:21] I mean, he texted me that night and was like, love you.

[00:22:25] I will text you when I get home.

[00:22:26] And then never texted.

[00:22:28] And I remember going to bed and being like, oh, it's fine.

[00:22:31] He's like, you know, whatever.

[00:22:33] He just forgot to text me.

[00:22:34] From that moment on, if I had a boyfriend or even a friend or my mom, like, like, yeah,

[00:22:39] I'll let you know when I get home.

[00:22:40] And didn't.

[00:22:40] I was like, they're dead.

[00:22:41] They went off into a ditch.

[00:22:42] I like fully spiral into creating a new life of what I'm going to have to do to move on

[00:22:47] from this.

[00:22:47] It's wild.

[00:22:49] Well, you know what?

[00:22:49] You're talking about something interesting.

[00:22:51] So in EMDR, we call something a touchstone memory, which is like the first time we remember

[00:22:56] blank.

[00:22:57] So if someone is like, if someone is like, I'm just constantly feel not good enough.

[00:23:02] Right.

[00:23:02] Right.

[00:23:03] And then the first I might say, I want you to float back to the first time you remember

[00:23:06] not feeling good enough.

[00:23:07] And they might say, I remember my dad's look on his face every time I like did something

[00:23:12] wrong as a kid.

[00:23:13] Right.

[00:23:13] That's called the touchstone.

[00:23:15] OK.

[00:23:15] Right.

[00:23:16] But I'm curious if your touchstone memory for fearing death is Josh.

[00:23:22] I mean, the way that I've always that I wrote about it and kind of have connected it is when

[00:23:27] my dad died, that was my first when I love someone, they die.

[00:23:31] Yeah.

[00:23:31] Belief like that fear of abandonment.

[00:23:33] Yeah.

[00:23:34] And then that was reopened when Josh died.

[00:23:37] Yeah.

[00:23:37] Because it was the same, like the second, you know, big man that I ever loved in my life

[00:23:42] was then like died, which is like weirdly traumatic.

[00:23:46] It's not.

[00:23:47] And that became when I love someone, they leave and like the fear of abandonment.

[00:23:51] Right.

[00:23:52] Which then played out with my exes in obviously not death being the end, but different abandonment

[00:23:59] ways.

[00:24:00] But I think with Tay specifically because he's older.

[00:24:05] Sure.

[00:24:05] It's always been like.

[00:24:07] Sure.

[00:24:07] And when he came into my life, I remember telling my mom, like, I'm I'm scared, you know, he's

[00:24:13] going to die and I'm going to play out this whole fucking scenario that you had with dad.

[00:24:16] And she like looked at me and she was like, Gabrielle, you could like walk out and get

[00:24:19] hit by a bus tomorrow.

[00:24:21] What do you what?

[00:24:21] Well, she was speaking reality.

[00:24:23] Yeah.

[00:24:23] But you weren't thinking from reality.

[00:24:25] You were thinking from your emotional.

[00:24:26] Correct.

[00:24:26] Correct.

[00:24:27] And she he also had a daughter at the time who was the same age I was when my dad died.

[00:24:32] So it was like very.

[00:24:34] Yeah.

[00:24:34] The universe was like, here you go, bitch.

[00:24:36] Was your dad older than your mom?

[00:24:38] Yeah.

[00:24:38] But not by a ton.

[00:24:39] OK.

[00:24:40] I think they had like a maybe like five or six years and Taya and I are 15.

[00:24:44] That's really.

[00:24:45] Yeah.

[00:24:46] So it's been it's been a journey to stay on top of those thoughts.

[00:25:01] Do you think Daniel was a version of leaving you, even though you left him?

[00:25:06] Oh, for sure.

[00:25:07] OK.

[00:25:07] For sure.

[00:25:08] That was abandonment in like one of those heinous ways possible.

[00:25:11] Totally.

[00:25:12] You know, fit the narrative of when I love someone, they leave me.

[00:25:16] Yeah.

[00:25:16] Yeah.

[00:25:17] 100 percent.

[00:25:18] Because I still had that subconscious belief.

[00:25:20] So I was still attracting that.

[00:25:21] Totally.

[00:25:22] And then it's not just around death.

[00:25:23] It's just someone.

[00:25:24] Oh, no.

[00:25:24] And then Javier, too.

[00:25:26] I mean, it's almost comical when you look at it.

[00:25:28] The universe was like, can we go heal this abandonment stuff?

[00:25:31] And then like someone had to invite me on a whole ass trip and then be like, peace

[00:25:35] out, bitch.

[00:25:36] 48 hours before I was going.

[00:25:38] And they were like, OK, so now can we like.

[00:25:41] Yeah.

[00:25:41] Yeah.

[00:25:41] Is it in your face enough?

[00:25:42] Yeah.

[00:25:43] So, yeah, 100 percent.

[00:25:44] And then when I finally started to heal about abandonment stuff was when I was able to attract

[00:25:49] Tay, who I never feel is going to abandon me.

[00:25:52] And I'm trying.

[00:25:53] I guess the thing for me now is trying to restructure the core belief, the memory, the

[00:26:01] fear that death isn't abandonment.

[00:26:05] Like those are two different things.

[00:26:06] And that's difficult.

[00:26:08] Yeah.

[00:26:08] Because of my history.

[00:26:09] Yeah.

[00:26:10] I mean, that would be EMDR.

[00:26:12] Yeah.

[00:26:12] Because basically what you would do.

[00:26:14] I'm not going to like do EMDR on you today.

[00:26:17] If we like come out of this episode two hours later.

[00:26:20] Completely traumatized.

[00:26:21] I'm like, great.

[00:26:22] I'm going to go pick up your kid.

[00:26:23] You're like, well, I'm fucked.

[00:26:25] Thanks.

[00:26:26] Bye.

[00:26:26] But basically what I would probably ask you and what you should think about is when you

[00:26:31] said I pair death to abandonment.

[00:26:35] Right.

[00:26:36] When you think of death and abandonment, what image or picture represents the worst part of

[00:26:41] it?

[00:26:42] Oh, God.

[00:26:46] I mean, the first without like sitting here and really like mulling that over to see if

[00:26:51] anything else comes up.

[00:26:52] The first thing that I see is the image of my dad laying there like hunched over on the

[00:27:00] floor.

[00:27:00] Right.

[00:27:01] And then what's the negative belief about yourself?

[00:27:03] About myself?

[00:27:04] When you see him on the floor.

[00:27:06] Daddy left.

[00:27:07] And that means what about you?

[00:27:09] I'm not good enough to stay for.

[00:27:10] Yeah.

[00:27:11] Yeah.

[00:27:11] Okay.

[00:27:12] So and I'm not going to keep going because I don't want to open you up.

[00:27:15] But like so basically what we would do is like I'm not good enough to stay for.

[00:27:19] Right.

[00:27:20] Okay.

[00:27:20] And I think with death, for example, it's really hard.

[00:27:24] I don't know if you ever have this experience, too, with anybody.

[00:27:26] I mean, okay.

[00:27:27] So with Josh, right?

[00:27:28] Like the way Josh passed away.

[00:27:31] Yeah.

[00:27:32] Or anybody.

[00:27:33] Right.

[00:27:33] Like sometimes when someone dies, there's this little part of us that goes like, why didn't

[00:27:38] you just blank?

[00:27:39] Like, like, for example, like somebody who I don't know who dies of cancer, but they were

[00:27:44] a smoker.

[00:27:44] Like you could have just fucking not smoked.

[00:27:46] Right.

[00:27:47] Right.

[00:27:47] Or like, why did you die?

[00:27:49] Like, were you eating poorly?

[00:27:50] Like, and you had a heart attack?

[00:27:51] Yeah.

[00:27:52] It's so easy sometimes with death to have this part of us that blames the other person.

[00:27:56] For sure.

[00:27:56] Yeah.

[00:27:57] And so if we blame another person, like, okay, so was I not good enough for you to stop

[00:28:01] smoking?

[00:28:02] Right.

[00:28:02] Was I not good enough?

[00:28:04] Was I not lovable enough?

[00:28:05] Yeah.

[00:28:06] For you to not your experience with Tay.

[00:28:08] Right.

[00:28:08] And I know on one of your recent episodes, he was very stressed.

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:13] Okay.

[00:28:14] It's like you could, a part of your brain could easily go, was I not lovable enough for you

[00:28:20] to get your stress under control or for you to figure things out?

[00:28:22] And then you passed away because you had a heart attack.

[00:28:24] Right.

[00:28:24] Right.

[00:28:24] Right.

[00:28:25] Do you see what it's like?

[00:28:25] Yeah.

[00:28:26] You could pair.

[00:28:27] And this is me doing a little more talk therapy than EMDR.

[00:28:29] But you could really pair into like why your core belief is like, I'm not good enough.

[00:28:35] Sure.

[00:28:35] Or I'm not enough.

[00:28:36] Yeah.

[00:28:37] Right?

[00:28:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:38] So, I mean, but EMDR, you would.

[00:28:41] And because you process, it seems like really adaptively, you'd probably be somebody that

[00:28:47] would take really quick in EMDR.

[00:28:50] Oh, that's so interesting.

[00:28:51] I'm like, half of me is like, oh, I want to go do this tomorrow.

[00:28:54] And the other half of me is like, this sounds fucking exhausting.

[00:28:56] Do I need to dredge all of it up right now?

[00:28:59] Do we have the time or the capacity?

[00:29:01] I mean, not with your nine-month-old son.

[00:29:04] Right.

[00:29:05] How do you describe a candidate for EMDR?

[00:29:07] Like, is there a certain age that you have to be or a certain developmental?

[00:29:11] That's a good question.

[00:29:12] You know, they do, people do EMDR with adolescents.

[00:29:15] I don't because I don't see adolescents because they terrify me, even though I will have an

[00:29:19] adolescent one day myself.

[00:29:20] Right.

[00:29:21] But I don't work with them, but people do EMDR with adolescents.

[00:29:26] For me, that'd be really hard because what I look for is somebody that is able to, this

[00:29:31] sounds like a weird criteria, but not overthink.

[00:29:35] Because what I'm looking for, much like we use the ayahuasca example, I'm looking for somebody

[00:29:40] that's able to go, I'm just going to see what comes up.

[00:29:43] I'm open and willing to see what comes up.

[00:29:45] Right.

[00:29:45] Right.

[00:29:46] So I want somebody that's like, when somebody comes in, like a perfectionist comes in, right?

[00:29:51] And they're like, am I doing this right?

[00:29:52] Am I doing it right?

[00:29:53] I'm like, shut the fuck up.

[00:29:54] And just basically look out a window.

[00:29:57] And I'm like, what do you see?

[00:29:58] And you're like, tree, flower, floor, person walking.

[00:30:02] Just tell me what you notice.

[00:30:03] Yeah.

[00:30:04] Like I said, I noticed a fucking video game when I was doing it.

[00:30:07] Like you kind of have to juxtapose reality to get to the underlying stuff.

[00:30:12] Interesting.

[00:30:12] So I'm looking for somebody that's like, I'm open and willing.

[00:30:16] This is what's happened in my life.

[00:30:17] I either don't want to keep repeating these patterns or I'm afraid to drive on the freeway

[00:30:21] or I have intrusive thoughts.

[00:30:23] Yeah.

[00:30:23] And they're just like, let's just fucking do it.

[00:30:26] Right.

[00:30:26] People who are hesitant have a really hard time because they just keep thinking.

[00:30:30] I'm like, stop thinking.

[00:30:32] Yeah.

[00:30:32] Just tell me what you notice.

[00:30:33] Yeah.

[00:30:33] Which is hard as like a human, you know?

[00:30:36] For sure.

[00:30:36] You're like, no, no, I'm here.

[00:30:37] I'm paying for this session.

[00:30:39] I want to get to the answer.

[00:30:40] For sure.

[00:30:40] How do I do it?

[00:30:41] For sure.

[00:30:42] Yeah.

[00:30:42] But it's a lot of letting go of control and also entrusting that your therapist is going

[00:30:46] to close you up at the end of session.

[00:30:48] Right.

[00:30:48] And how does that happen once you're like ripped open and everything is just there?

[00:30:54] How do you, because obviously you don't do everything in one session, I'm assuming.

[00:30:58] Some people who are like really fast processors will clear in one session, depending on the

[00:31:04] trauma.

[00:31:04] The trauma is complex PTSD or complex trauma, which you have because you've had something

[00:31:09] occur four times now.

[00:31:12] Yeah.

[00:31:12] Right.

[00:31:13] Versus somebody that had the car accident, as an example I gave, they will clear it in

[00:31:16] usually one to two sessions.

[00:31:18] So it's a single case trauma or repeated trauma.

[00:31:22] Okay.

[00:31:23] So then at the end of a session, if let's say it's not clear, like what do you, what's

[00:31:27] the end look like?

[00:31:28] I will ask them if they want to ground via talking.

[00:31:30] So just like, oh my God, what did you notice?

[00:31:33] Let's just kind of explore.

[00:31:34] How are you feeling?

[00:31:35] Or I will ask them if they want to ground using anything from like, let's establish a

[00:31:40] safe place and like, let's ground you in safe place.

[00:31:43] Let's do a container exercise.

[00:31:45] Interesting.

[00:31:46] Let's do a guided meditation to close.

[00:31:48] So something that kind of brings you back to like, okay, sometimes I'm like, feel your

[00:31:51] hand on the fucking couch.

[00:31:53] Look at your feet on the ground.

[00:31:54] Look around my office.

[00:31:55] Tell me six things you see.

[00:31:57] What do you have to do the rest of the day?

[00:31:59] Let's talk about how you're doing.

[00:31:59] And then, you know, so you can, I can ground using like mindfulness exercises or some people

[00:32:04] just want to talk about what just happened.

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:06] And that's a release.

[00:32:07] Right.

[00:32:08] Is there a physical recovery after?

[00:32:10] People are exhausted.

[00:32:11] Yeah.

[00:32:12] Okay.

[00:32:12] So yeah, definitely not something I should be doing right now.

[00:32:16] Not for you right now.

[00:32:18] Barely hanging on, injecting caffeine into my veins.

[00:32:21] Yeah.

[00:32:21] Okay.

[00:32:22] That's really interesting.

[00:32:23] I'm also curious, like if Tay were to go and do something like that, like what that,

[00:32:28] I don't know if you know a lot about his history, but he, it's weird.

[00:32:32] We have like very weirdly identical parallel traumas.

[00:32:37] Oh.

[00:32:37] So his mom passed when he was 14 from an aneurysm.

[00:32:41] Oh God.

[00:32:41] And he was the one that found her the same way I found my dad.

[00:32:46] So it was very strange.

[00:32:48] His dad is lovely, but very Persian and was very not like prepared to just like take on

[00:32:55] two kids.

[00:32:56] Was like, what do you mean laundry?

[00:32:58] What?

[00:32:58] Yeah.

[00:32:58] Um, and left it up to Tay to make the decision of like if they should pull the plug or not

[00:33:05] when she was in the hospital, which.

[00:33:07] So he made an adult decision at 14?

[00:33:09] Yeah.

[00:33:09] And then kind of became the person to take care of his brother and like stepped into

[00:33:14] that role with his dad.

[00:33:16] And I think his dad had the intent of trying to make him feel like he had some control

[00:33:23] over the situation.

[00:33:24] Totally.

[00:33:24] And he was a part of things.

[00:33:25] But in the 14 year old's brain was like, this is, you know, and right before she went

[00:33:30] down, they had gotten in a fight and he had said, I hate you.

[00:33:33] I wish you were dead.

[00:33:33] Oh, what a fucking mess.

[00:33:34] So it like, it's like the, all of the shit in one fucking drama.

[00:33:40] What a mess.

[00:33:41] Um, so I'm so interested to see if he would.

[00:33:44] I think he'd be a great candidate.

[00:33:45] Yeah.

[00:33:46] And he.

[00:33:46] Because I've always thought he should go to ayahuasca.

[00:33:48] Right.

[00:33:49] He needs to do like, well, he's got complex trauma too.

[00:33:52] He, I mean, so let's call it 10 sessions maybe, but is he a sort of fast processor and sort

[00:33:58] of.

[00:33:59] Yeah.

[00:34:00] So maybe less than that, but yeah, it's a short term therapy, right?

[00:34:04] So that's also some people are like, oh my God, how long do I have to be in this?

[00:34:07] It's short term.

[00:34:08] Yeah.

[00:34:09] Yeah.

[00:34:09] He'd be a great candidate.

[00:34:10] It's really interesting because my mom obviously is a healer and does pendulum and energy blocks.

[00:34:16] Yeah.

[00:34:17] So she was sitting here, she'd be like, yeah, okay.

[00:34:18] But like, I can get to that in a 30 minute session and clear it.

[00:34:22] But it's such a different, because I've done that work and it's amazing.

[00:34:26] And I have seen all the benefits of it, but I think it's different hearing it and knowing

[00:34:33] that it's like, quote, been cleared and being aware of it.

[00:34:37] Yes.

[00:34:39] Versus feeling it being pulled to the front and then actively having a part in clearing

[00:34:45] it.

[00:34:45] That's a perfect way of putting it.

[00:34:47] Yeah.

[00:34:47] That's a perfect way of putting it.

[00:34:49] Interesting.

[00:34:49] You're in so much ownership in that way.

[00:34:51] Yeah.

[00:34:52] And, and the other piece I think is like, because we're targeting, you know, because

[00:34:57] it's like an evidence-based approach where we're targeting the left and the right side

[00:35:01] of the brain, we're really getting into the weeds from like a neurological standpoint of

[00:35:07] like, all right, let's, let's really, let's really clear where this started.

[00:35:12] Right.

[00:35:13] Right.

[00:35:13] Yeah.

[00:35:14] It sounds like your mom targets more somatic, like body.

[00:35:17] Yeah.

[00:35:17] She really like, it's all energy based.

[00:35:21] So she will, she'll get on a session and be like, okay, so what happened with your dad when

[00:35:24] you were three?

[00:35:25] And you're crying.

[00:35:27] Yeah.

[00:35:27] Like, you're like, okay, that's where this started.

[00:35:29] And like, this is the core belief.

[00:35:31] And then let's clear it.

[00:35:32] Not by like tapping or anything like that.

[00:35:35] It's really like, she'll do a saying around it.

[00:35:38] And it's really like clearing the energy just out of your consciousness.

[00:35:42] Yeah.

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:44] That's, I mean, that, I feel like those would just go tandem.

[00:35:46] It's like you would do your mom's first and then you'd go do.

[00:35:49] Right.

[00:35:50] Right.

[00:35:50] Or vice versa.

[00:35:51] I feel like EMDR is a more tangible, like you're involved in actively like feeling like

[00:35:57] you're peeling it away.

[00:35:58] Yes.

[00:35:59] Totally.

[00:35:59] It's so interesting.

[00:36:00] Like, I never thought I'd be like, oh, I really want to do this.

[00:36:02] And here I am being like, oh, I really want to do this.

[00:36:04] Obviously you're a therapist.

[00:36:05] You can't come out and like tell all these crazy stories.

[00:36:08] But is there an instance that you can share with someone about someone that you've worked

[00:36:14] with who had a really powerful experience with a trauma that they were able to clear

[00:36:20] and how it's changed their life?

[00:36:21] Yeah.

[00:36:22] I mean, there's two that really come up for me.

[00:36:24] One of them is probably too explicit, but I'll say one that's recently happening.

[00:36:28] I have a client who had a really abusive stepfather.

[00:36:32] And what was coming up a lot at the beginning when we were targeting it, it was like the core

[00:36:36] belief, the image or picture that represent the worst part about him was his mustache.

[00:36:42] His core belief was, I think it was like, I'm unsafe.

[00:36:47] What she wanted to believe about herself was I'm safe and I'm okay as I am.

[00:36:52] A lot of fear, a lot of anxiety coming up around it.

[00:36:56] So when you hold those all together, which is what we do in EMDR, we hold them all together

[00:36:59] and then I turn on the buzzers that go back and forth.

[00:37:02] What kept coming up was in the beginning sets was I'm so small.

[00:37:07] I can't see myself.

[00:37:08] I'm so small.

[00:37:09] I can't see myself.

[00:37:10] I see myself running into different rooms, even though that's not necessarily what she would do.

[00:37:14] And she was like, I keep getting smaller.

[00:37:16] Like my body keeps getting smaller and I look like I'm shrinking away.

[00:37:21] And then after three sessions of EMDR, she ended with like, I'm so big.

[00:37:26] I'm like as high as the ceiling.

[00:37:27] I love that.

[00:37:28] And I feel like I can take up space.

[00:37:31] And I'm also no longer sitting in that house that I was running back and forth from.

[00:37:36] So for her, a lot of visuals were coming up with like, I felt so powerless essentially.

[00:37:40] And now I have all this power and I'm in control and I don't live in that house anymore.

[00:37:45] And I'm an adult.

[00:37:46] Yeah.

[00:37:47] And I make my own decisions and no one hurts me.

[00:37:49] Right.

[00:37:50] Yeah.

[00:37:50] So hers really showed up with imagery.

[00:37:52] And also everybody's stuff shows up differently.

[00:37:54] Some people have a lot of imagery that shows up.

[00:37:57] You probably would be somebody that have a lot of imagery.

[00:38:00] Yeah.

[00:38:00] Some people it's like straight somatic in their body.

[00:38:03] Like some people have no images, but they twitch a lot because it's all the energies.

[00:38:07] It's all the energy releasing.

[00:38:09] Like let's say, you know, you remembered with your dad, like that feeling and it was stuck in your chest.

[00:38:15] Yeah.

[00:38:15] Right.

[00:38:16] You might be somebody that you're like, my chest feels like it's burning.

[00:38:19] My chest feels like it's burning.

[00:38:21] Right.

[00:38:21] And then other people are just like straight emotional and they'll cry the whole session.

[00:38:26] Right.

[00:38:26] So everybody kind of does something different, which tends to be with just like how they store energy.

[00:38:31] Yeah.

[00:38:31] How they process.

[00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:33] But that was really cool.

[00:38:34] She was small for like two or three sessions, like really tiny, tiny, tiny.

[00:38:38] And then in the end she was like, I'm huge and I'm bright.

[00:38:41] I love that.

[00:38:42] Light.

[00:38:43] That's so interesting.

[00:38:44] Yeah.

[00:38:44] Oh my God, Brooke.

[00:38:45] This has been freaking awesome.

[00:38:47] Can you tell everybody where they can find you and your, your practice or if they do you

[00:38:53] do things virtually or do they have to be in LA?

[00:38:55] So they have to be in California.

[00:38:56] So I don't have to be in LA because I'm only licensed in California.

[00:38:59] I do.

[00:39:00] I mean, and really the only way to find me is Google.

[00:39:02] Okay.

[00:39:02] Um, I mean, I have a website, uh, I'm on psychology today, but I never got into like

[00:39:08] the social media.

[00:39:08] I was, I feel like it was like past my time since it's been like 11 years.

[00:39:12] Yeah.

[00:39:13] Um, my, like I have a whole last practice.

[00:39:14] I don't need to be posting on.

[00:39:16] Yeah.

[00:39:17] Yeah.

[00:39:17] My interns now do it.

[00:39:19] I'm like, I don't understand.

[00:39:20] I mean, and they're getting clients from it, but it's just not a world I know.

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:23] Um, so you just would have to Google me.

[00:39:25] Brooks Vaughn.

[00:39:26] I feel like that's a flex.

[00:39:27] Just Google me.

[00:39:30] Just Google me.

[00:39:31] Can you spell your last name?

[00:39:32] S P A H N.

[00:39:34] Not that they can't see it in the fucking episode title, but, um, and if they're interested

[00:39:38] in potentially doing EMDR, like what are you think the first like steps are?

[00:39:43] In terms of reaching out to me or just in terms of what they should do themselves?

[00:39:46] Both.

[00:39:47] I think themselves, the first thing, like in the first session, I asked somebody to think

[00:39:50] of a safe place, um, because we're going to end up installing that before I dive into

[00:39:55] like opening you up.

[00:39:56] Right.

[00:39:57] So I would say like, think if you're going in already, think of what a safe and neutral

[00:40:01] place is for you.

[00:40:02] Okay.

[00:40:03] Cause that's going to be your first step with EMDR.

[00:40:05] Yeah.

[00:40:05] And then they can just email me or they can, I mean, my phone is going to be your first

[00:40:08] phone number.

[00:40:09] It's on there too.

[00:40:09] People can text or call.

[00:40:11] Okay.

[00:40:11] And is it something that you need to like, you know, how like therapy, it's like, you

[00:40:14] need to find the right fit.

[00:40:16] Is it like that for EMDR?

[00:40:18] That's a good question.

[00:40:18] As long as you feel safe with the person.

[00:40:20] I would say that because I don't, I haven't come across, there's a few EMDR therapists

[00:40:24] I've heard people say like, eh, that wasn't a great experience.

[00:40:27] They just dove in.

[00:40:28] It's like, you're supposed to kind of ground somebody first.

[00:40:30] Right.

[00:40:30] Um, but if someone's trained or certified, which is pretty much the same thing, um, you should

[00:40:37] be good to go.

[00:40:38] Okay.

[00:40:38] The only like caveat, which sort of sucks is I don't know any EMDR therapists that take

[00:40:43] insurance.

[00:40:43] Uh, so it's cash pay, but again, it's short term therapy.

[00:40:48] Right.

[00:40:49] So that's the only caveat.

[00:40:50] And what is like a typical session usually costs?

[00:40:52] It ranges.

[00:40:53] I've seen therapists for 175.

[00:40:56] I've seen therapists.

[00:40:57] I've seen, I mean, there's therapists that charge upwards of $300.

[00:41:01] Right.

[00:41:01] Yeah.

[00:41:02] Okay.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:03] This has been wildly fascinating.

[00:41:05] And now I'm like, when do I have enough energy to go do this?

[00:41:10] Sentay first.

[00:41:11] Yeah.

[00:41:12] I'll be the guinea pig.

[00:41:14] Ship them off.

[00:41:14] Um, thank you.

[00:41:15] This has been really fucking cool to just reconnect with you and to, uh, really like dive into,

[00:41:21] I've been interested in EMDR and hearing a lot about it for a really long time, but I've never

[00:41:26] really gotten to talk to someone that knew it so well.

[00:41:29] So this has been really great.

[00:41:30] Yeah.

[00:41:30] Thank you.

[00:41:35] I want to thank Brooke so very much for coming on.

[00:41:38] I literally am like, when do I have enough energy to go book some sessions with her?

[00:41:43] Um, cause it is definitely something I very much so want to do.

[00:41:47] Um, if it spoke to you, you can look her up online.

[00:41:50] We will also list all of the information in the show notes.

[00:41:52] Um, she does only practice in California.

[00:41:54] So if you're outside of California, um, search for someone who does this type of therapy

[00:41:59] where you are in whatever part of the world that may be.

[00:42:02] I hope you guys got some goodness out of today's episode.

[00:42:05] I love you and I will see you next week.

[00:42:08] Cheers.

[00:42:13] All right, FMLers.

[00:42:15] If you don't want to miss an episode, make sure to follow on your favorite podcast app.

[00:42:20] And if you're loving the show, drop us a five-star rating and leave a review.

[00:42:24] You can keep up with me on Instagram at Gabrielle Stone or the podcast page at FML Talk Podcast.

[00:42:31] For all the merch and books signed personally by me, you can shop the FML line on

[00:42:37] eatpreyfml.com.

[00:42:38] And as always, have a fucking self-love cocktail on me.

[00:42:43] Cheers.

[00:42:51] This podcast has been brought to you by Podcast Nation.

[00:42:55] Thank you.