The Ultimate Grunge Metal Band Tribute to Nirvana (with Jay Burke & Ryan McGann)

[00:00:00] This podcast is a production of Unfiltered Studios. If you would like to know more about joining Unfiltered Studios, please visit our website at unfpod.com for more information. I've been really surprised and happy to see the types of people that come to our shows. I know that sounds elitist, but I mean, they're really, I was surprised to see that there are that many kids in every city.

[00:00:26] They're just good, nice kids. We're so afraid of having people come to our shows to cause trouble, you know, getting in fist fights. I haven't seen one fist fight in our show, you know, and that's in a smaller type of arena atmosphere, you know, and it's great. It's really nice and comforting to know that that's our audience, you know, and we're really proud of that fact, I think. What do you suppose it is that draws them to you?

[00:00:55] I don't know. I don't know. Being fans. Just liking our music. I mean, just ignoring all the crap, all the rumors and stuff, and just being real honest music fans.

[00:01:09] Oh, we have Jay Burke from his show of the same name. He's interviewed all kinds of political strategists. And then we got Ryan McGann from Front and Face Lock. They have formed now together as best buds growing up the Off Topic podcast.

[00:02:13] With my brother Sean McGann. Yeah. Yeah. It gets personal now. It's very personal, yeah. And it's exactly what we've always done. Just kind of talk about things and then sway totally off topic. Way around. Yeah. And then be like, how did we get there? The only difference is this time we have to go, we need to get back on the topic because we're recording this.

[00:02:38] In real life, we would start at point A and end up at point Q and never go back. Yes. Oh man. It's kind of like diner conversations without getting kicked out. We used to get down at diners a lot when we were younger. Yeah. I think we've grown up a little bit since then. We just don't do it at the diner. That was growing up. I don't know what growing up means.

[00:03:08] I'm kidding, of course, but I know it is funny though, when you look back in retrospect. And when I see people giving themselves like trash talking themselves or bullying themselves even just for a joke, I'm like, well, just just look back. Just have a good grump. Like, are you still doing this one bad habit? No. Okay, then you've improved somewhat. You're not the same guy you were in, you know, fifth grade. Oh yeah. I'm still the guy from like in fifth grade.

[00:03:38] I'm just fatter and balder. Maybe a little more wisdom. I don't know. More wisdom. I know how to do the shenanigans I did, but with more class and sophistication. Correct. Perfect. Yeah. So thanks for having us on though. Yeah. Oh, I thank you guys for making it a day. It was like, I was hearing you guys talk about it so much on your show. It was like, you know, we've been overdue to do music discussions for a while.

[00:04:08] It was like, yeah, let's just, let's talk about Nirvana. Yeah. We have about, there's about three topics that really always segue in somehow. They're always like nine. So me, me and Ryan are both, you know, mostly 90 kids. I think, I mean, we grew up in the eighties too, but we were like formed. We were forged in the nineties. That's where your bread and butter was found. Yes. Yeah. So we always bring up, it's, it's always Star Wars. Yes. And Nirvana.

[00:04:37] And we keep telling ourselves everywhere. We were like, let's not talk about that this week. Tapping out. Yeah. It's funny because you're having us on because we keep saying, talking about Nirvana. And like I said to Sean, I'm like, well, it's kind of cool because we have this like continuous thread through every episode that connects them all where it's like Batman, Star Wars, Nirvana. Everybody kind of knows now that that's somehow going to get brought up in some way. Well, it's every podcast and the collaboration that there's been some topics where I've had

[00:05:05] to politely excuse myself, say I'll, I'll turn on the record button, but I'm not going to be there. And then there's others where it's like, I feel like we've talked about it to death and I'm not trying to shield you from everything, but I'm just saying whoever we have on the panel might hurt your feelings. Right. And I'm, we're not trying to be brutal or go on a ramp, but it was just one of those like, yeah, I mean, let's let that topic die down.

[00:05:29] And just because I don't want to just get all everyone hyped up on the hype, so to speak. And yeah, there's been other topics where it's like, well, we'll have fun, but I don't know if we'll have much of a conversation because I don't even know how to edit this. But yeah, that's always a trick. It is. Editing is like, I think the cinema recall, they really helped us with different bumpers

[00:05:57] for me to introduce everything is like, sometimes we keep talking. Okay. That's the intro. Um, but tonight's topic, it's interesting because I had, I knew they were part of the, you know, hard rock metal scene, but I also, and you know, are often considered the face of grunge. They weren't the first, but they were one of many who popularized it. And then it's like, oh, that's right.

[00:06:26] They are also kind of a punk rock alt rock face. I didn't really think about that, but it's true. And, uh, you know, from Everdeen, Washington. And so green river is often cited as the first one from the Seattle rock scene to be the first grunge rock. And then you have sound garden, Sonic youth dinosaur junior, and the bottle surfers of all people. And, uh, but it is interesting. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's, is it.

[00:06:55] I would always, every time I would, people would ask what, what's that song, you know, pepper. I'm like, who's it by? I'm like, butthole surfers are like, you're pulling my leg. I'm like, no, look at the car display. It clearly says that. Um, Nirvana is interesting. Cause like, yeah, that, that is an actual thing, but it'd be interesting if you look up and how many times you're just going to get just the rock.

[00:07:23] Word as opposed to the actual terminology, which is, uh, used in Buddhism as the highest state of enlightenment. Yeah. The extinguishment of desire and suffering. You know, it's funny. And Ryan, maybe you're getting a lot of these too. Every time I go on YouTube now, it's like they're listening to me.

[00:07:43] So it's like, I'm getting so many Nirvana shorts and, uh, they had every clickbait ad as well as every interview you legit want to see, but thought was removed from YouTube. Yeah. They actually had a, they were asking Kurt about Nirvana and, uh, the guy must've been quoting him from another magazine. He was, he talked about it in and you see Kurt, he's like, I don't know what I said. I was, I was pretty drunk, hung over.

[00:08:11] I think the guys like you said that it exactly what you were saying. And like, and then he like finished it. He goes, yeah, yeah. And then he goes, so is that what you meant by like taking the name Nirvana? He's like, sure, sure. That's it. He goes, it really doesn't matter. I just said it. He used to just say shit. I think during, you know, everything I read about him and stuff, he used to just mess with the media a lot. He really did.

[00:08:39] He wasn't a dumb person, but given how clickbaity we were before it really got bad with internet is like, it was easy to say. It's like, are they, are they being for real? I'm going to print this down. It's like, dude, did they not teach you discretion in news media? It's just, if you don't think it's going to make any sense, don't even bother putting it down. He's just messing with you because he's had, he's hammered. And I think I appreciated them even more because of the whole 1992, uh, stadium tour.

[00:09:09] Mm-hmm. Uh, and just cause like, Axl Rose started a beef with them and Nirvana was supposed to perform on that. And it was just like, I saw, so I'm sorry to cut you off. Can we not hear you? No, go ahead. Um, I, I saw my first concert and how old are you, Cam, by the way? Um, in my mid thirties. I was going to ask him that question. I was trying to see what age group he's cohort he's coming from. I had good parents.

[00:09:38] I, in fact, every now and then I would school them on some movies and shows that music is like, you've heard them. You've known them more than you realize. You just didn't commit it to memory. Right. We, uh, not that just means anything. We're a little older. So like we saw, like, you know, we may have a better memory because we saw it. I mean, alcohol probably killed my memory, but, uh, I, my first concert in 92 was the guns and Metallica show tour. And faith Memorial.

[00:10:08] Yeah, that's right. He saw it the night after us and, uh, faith and more open, which is another one of my favorite bands. Yes. Then I found out after the fact that Nirvana was supposed to open. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm glad I got to see faith no more, but like you could have saw Nirvana. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that they were supposed to be on there and, uh, it's wild how body count, uh, apparently also opened on the tour and was on the last tour dates.

[00:10:37] I'm seeing here as well as motorhead. It sounds like a legit great, uh, concert, much like the Lollapalooza. Yeah. One that was around the same time, not the same year, but big highlight of the nineties. And I'm like, man, I, I think the reason you couldn't do this, something like this now is just no one really wants to split the bill. Yeah. I mean, there's so many festivals now, you know, they're used to very oversaturated. Yeah.

[00:11:07] Like 20 years ago, there was festivals and then they kind of went away, warped toward and skate and surf and, uh, all those stuff. And then it went away. And then Europe had all these huge festivals, Sonosphere and all this stuff. Uh, and then now we're starting to get the, when we were young stuff, which is from the early two thousands. And you're like, Oh, we were young. That was 25 years ago. Holy. Uh, you know what, you know what helped that too, why they don't want to split the bill anymore.

[00:11:37] I guess you could say Napster kind of killed the whole record industry and destroyed, uh, physical media is kind of dead, right? Like it's the same thing with movies at this point. Like there's a reason why like, uh, um, a movie like fight club ended up making money because it had a second life a few years later on DVD. Indeed. When it didn't make anything on its theatrical. So a lot of times they would take chances on movies and things like that.

[00:12:06] Same thing in music right now, all these guys make their money from touring. They used to be the opposite. They used to tour to a loss, but they would make it up in units, meaning CDs, uh, cassettes, you know, merchandise. Yeah. Any kind of physical media. And because that's dead, I think it's hard to get them to split the bill. It's also why me and Ryan used to go to shows for like 19 bucks. Yes. Pretty good bands. And now it's like 275 bucks to sit in the nose place.

[00:12:36] Yeah. That's just it. Well, it's reunion, which a band I saw for five bucks, you know, in 2000. Now they're touring and it's 200, $200 for a nosebleed seat, a Prudential center. Yeah. That's a very good point. I think when everything was fresh and new, people went crazy. They worried about paying all their bills later and maxing out their credit card. Now it's like, I think everyone's just had to grow a brain and you know, there's always going to be someone dissatisfied who wants to bitch on Twitter.

[00:13:04] That's, that's never going to change, unfortunately. But then it also gets that. It's like, you know, I, I do this all the time with movies. I'm like, okay, that one I got to see on the big screen. It's going to have good Foley and visuals. I got to see it. And then versus that's good, but I got to be in the mood for that. I will see it when the hype dies down on either, you know, one of the movie channels or whatever streaming app or by the Blu-ray discounted.

[00:13:28] But then yeah, with music, when you take all that into account, it's like, yeah, I definitely want the vinyl of that knowing that person's talent or I can hear it streaming, but maybe not the best experience. There's so much more to be picky about. And there's so many people I think of is like, who would I see in concert? Definitely not that band now since they're past their heyday, but this one. Oh, sure. Yeah. That sounds fun. Yeah. Yeah. I think. But that's one of the things growing up, right?

[00:13:57] Like I do miss that physical media because you had such a, you know, an attachment to it, right? Like I used to be excited. You would customize your artwork. Yeah. The album and reading the lyrics if it had a lyric book or whatever it was, it was, you know, so much great stuff. Yeah. You just sit there with it now. I listen. I'm a victim of it too, right? Like there's so many people I like and I'm like, I don't even know what album that is because I've never listened to the whole album.

[00:14:25] I just listened to a bunch of this band songs that I like because I stream them. And then to tie into that Jay, music videos, just like physical media is a lost art. Like they still make videos, but like we used to have to wait till Friday Night Rock or. Yeah. Yeah. 120 minutes or Alternative Nation that you'd stay up to see that so you can see the video. Mm hmm. Then it was like, oh, now I have to go buy that album.

[00:14:53] So it was like one tied into the other tied into the net. I mean, oh, now I have to see them in concert. And it was like, yeah, you lose the physical media. So then it's like and then you lose the platform, make the video. The restrictions we had back then made you more patient now that everyone's so spoiled or they have ways to pirate it is just like, yeah, it's like you got to hook them right away, which is a shame because if that's never been the style, then how do you even adjust to the newer crowd?

[00:15:24] Yeah, no, that's true. And that's again another thing I'm a I'm a victim of right. Like I get mad at my phone when it doesn't do something in two seconds. I'm like, what the hell? What is the hell with your phone? What the hell's going on with that satellite in space? Like, can you beam that like, why isn't it going faster? It's like gratification and I'm guilty of it as well. You know, I know about five minutes. My Wi-Fi is going to freeze for 30 seconds and I'm like, damn it.

[00:15:53] And it's like, but 20 years ago, what was why? Yeah. What is Wi-Fi? Dial up? Don't you mean dial up? No, I mean. I love for $2 and 37 cents a minute. You get an AOL disk. Yeah, those are the days. I promise you no chicken in a blender noises here. Oh, yeah. But so that's interesting, though, because you're you're, you know, younger than us. So you're like the next generation.

[00:16:23] It always interests me to know how younger people, whether it's your age or even younger, like view Nirvana. I think they almost have like a mythical quality to them. It's the point of the show is all about deciphering pop culture instead of just, yeah, I like this or I hate this. Like, no, let's let's make sense of it all. And let me flip this for a second and ask you a question. The show.

[00:16:53] How were you like, I was exposed. I'm sure Jay, the same thing when smells like teen spirit came out, like my brother. I tell this story a lot. I was writing bands on my notebook and my brother wrote Nirvana. I didn't know who they were. And he's like, oh, you got to check out smells like teen spirit. And so I completely changed my life. So how for somebody that was I'm assuming you don't remember that I'm just going on a limb. Like, how were you exposed to Nirvana? So.

[00:17:18] I just always had a healthy dose of it, like my dad would listen to all kinds of classic rock and folk music when my mother was the pop side. And so I already had a healthy dose of everything, everything from ZZ Top to Pointer Sisters to all kinds of other 80s synth way backs as well as and movies were always had wonderful soundtracks from the 90s, early 2000s. So I would definitely keep up on man that. I don't know why, but that particular.

[00:17:49] Guitar tune just really. Stays with me and Nirvana was one of those is like I couldn't escape them and that I don't know if anyone else saw a lot of this, but definitely at malls and definitely at school. There was always someone with a Cobain t-shirt or who would talk about Nirvana because they were big on former member Dave Grohl's Foo Fighters. Yeah, and I just I always had reasonable airplay.

[00:18:18] I think it helped that unlike many other rock bands, there wasn't too many. Expletives, if you will. I mean, there's definitely some motor mouth in some of them and definitely in some of the titles, but for the most part, I couldn't escape Nirvana and I saw why they were understood. And I would always occasionally revisit some stuff by them is like, yeah, that's not that's not bad at all. And I don't know if anyone's ever seen the behind the music of Weird Al.

[00:18:47] It's so funny how Nirvana they cited as not knowing they were that big when they were making fun of the Smells Like Teen Spirit music video and they got to use the actual same set. And I just always kind of that I can see why it spoke to everybody. I think some people talk smack about them because they they see emo crowds that go crazy about them.

[00:19:12] But I think they kind of originated the whole speak to all kinds of misunderstood and yeah, as many shy people as well as poets and other music artists. And so. I mean, if people only know about them because they played on a certain TV show finale or a superhero movie, that's whatever, but at least they know about them still instead of just they they weren't there at the time. They have no other reference point.

[00:19:42] I always thought Doug, their small melody. And my sister personally couldn't she could never stand him growing up. It was just diary of them out to her, but she saw the HBO documentary where they. Took Cobain's. Final days diary and. Matched it up with his music, so I think this is it. I think it is. He's an artist that just. People want to know more about. He's just.

[00:20:11] He's hard to decipher, kind of like the legacy of Tupac in a way. Yeah. No, that's a good. That's a good. You don't have to be a fan to know there's a persona behind him. So I think this is it. Like he. Just when he got so comfy, he left us and. I just always kind of dug the allure of it all. I'm like, yeah, so what does that song mean? That's a great. Build up. You bring up the lyrics again. I'm sorry to cut you off. I do that a lot. No, you're fine. I.

[00:20:42] You know, I forget what interview it was. I'm sure Jack could cite the exact interview in second of the interview. Where he's talking. You know, obviously he always said music first, lyric second. Music first. Talking about the. Talking about the pixies. He was comparing that with. Right. So the pig. Which I mean. He. Hold on. Can you hold that thought for one second? Yes. There's a. There's a second part of this thought. Please, sir. He's. You know, he'd say like if I wrote a really sentimental line, I'd have to like.

[00:21:12] I forget the exact phrase. Like make fun of it. The next line because he felt too sappy. Yeah. Sappy. To. To be that sentimental in a song. Well, I think that. Goes to the core of what he did. A lot of his stuff was like. I don't think he wrote like a song. Well, first of all, he said the lyrics were like secondary, but he used to write poetry all over the place. So he had lyrics just. That he could take from. But I think he just had multiple meanings in a song. Like he wasn't.

[00:21:43] I don't think Dave Grohl said this once and he was talking about smells like teen spirit. He was like, I don't. I just don't see like the whole thing. Like he's trying to speak to a generation. He's like, I literally watched him write. He used to just mumble teen spirit. And then five minutes before we recorded, he wrote all the lyrics. So I think for them, it's the feeling, right? Like they came around at an interesting time. Um, you know, rock was kind of.

[00:22:12] Losing, you know, there was a lot of talk about rock being dead. And you had like metal metal had gotten to the point like where it was just like schlocky hair bands. Yeah. I mean, Metallica was still good and and whatever, but it was like, was it like, you know, all the all the posers or whatever you want to call them came into it. Metallica was an interesting animal in and of itself. Well, they're changing.

[00:22:39] Know them just for name recognition versus it's weird. But they are very much like Van Halen, where I just see everyone you the minute you mentioned their name, like it's a it's the new Internet Fred war. Like everyone wants to complain. Oh, there used to be this and there used to be that. And you guys have talked about new metal as well. It's like a lot of people just hate that era and they can't give you a constructive

[00:23:05] take on what good, if any, came out and which ones were just more noisier than the last one. And I feel I it makes me wonder how much of that is people who never cared for metal or hard rock. To begin with. Yeah. And he's one of their scapegoat. The same with metal is the same with grunge, which if you want to break it down, you know, I've had this argument to grunge is not the style of music. Technically, it's it's the dress. It's the vibe. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[00:23:34] Like Alice in Chains is a metal band. Some genre genre. Not an exact genre. It's just. It is interesting. It's like, yeah, it's not really a style. It's just kind of a new label upon another. Well, yeah, it was just like a different feel and look like me, Ryan and Sean and myself have talked about it on off topic. Right. We're like, it's so weird because. You know, I see the four big bands, right?

[00:24:01] So that'd be like Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden and Nirvana are probably the four recognizable ones. Right. Like, you know, not everybody else, Mudah Honey or or who Mark Lanigan is or whatever. But out of those four, I mean, they sound so different from each other. They're I mean, they're guitar driven, I guess you could say. But yes, like Soundgarden's kind of all over the place. They're kind of like metal early on. And then I don't know what they even get into. It's just like it's like hard rock.

[00:24:31] But like with. Yeah. With like metal undertones still. You know what I mean? Like they're just different. Like a punk band. And then Mudhoney was a punk band. Screaming Trees was a rock band. Tad was a metal band. Right. Some Dave Guds. Nice. Yeah. Sonic Youth was a experimental rock band, I guess you could say. Yeah. Because there's no real category for them for some of their stuff, especially on Washer Machine. Like that's a, you know, Diamond Sea 20 minutes song. Yeah.

[00:24:59] So they just put the grunge umbrella over it because it all came from Seattle. But then you got to remember like Jimmy Henders came from Seattle, but he's not grunge. Candlebox came from Seattle. They're not grunge. No, that's a good point too. Yeah. I would definitely put those more in alt rock. Yeah. And there's still people coming out of Seattle. Right.

[00:25:19] Like I know the head and the heart's from there and that's like, I don't know if that's a mix of folk and some other stuff, but you know, it's, I think, you know, that came out, they came out at a time. I feel like what happens is same thing. Rap, you know, changes, hip hop changes during that time. And it's like, I don't think like the bean counters could figure out what the hell was going on.

[00:25:47] They always end up getting like the recipe later, like by the end of the nineties, they, they have it down in music, but I think it's the same thing with metal, right? Like they figured out who could make the money and stuff like that. Like Nirvana. And like, I look at some of the, the other so-called grunge artists and hip hop artists of that time. And it's like, they're like, you know what, just whatever, do what you got to do because we're making money and we're, we're going to figure this out, you know, but it was such, it was just so different.

[00:26:16] And it's also a sea change in the culture. I mean, you're going from, from the eighties, like Reagan's eighties to the Clinton nineties. It's just, it's, it's such a different vibe. And I think at least for my age and stuff, right? Like there's a lot of confusion at that time. I'm like early teens going into mid teens. And you have that, that angst that he had, he had that angstiness too.

[00:26:45] And I think that's more what drew people to him. And I think that's why it's kind of timeless for some people, right? Like you could always, it's weird to listen to it now, like younger, it vibed me up. Like, you know what I mean? Like it got me going and it still does, but it's like, I look at it almost like, oh, I remember when I was that.

[00:27:06] But like, I don't have the same, like, like his line, like, you know, the opening of Serve the Servants, teenage angst has paid off well. Now I'm bored and old. Thought it was like the best line back then. And now I'm like, I live that line. Live it. There you go. In a different way. Cause you're old. I'm sorry. Again. All right. Keep cutting you off. No, it's fine. I, I think you're right. You appreciate it in a different way.

[00:27:33] You know, like Jay was saying, when you're young, you know, my high school quote is one more special message to go. Then I'm done. Then I can go home. It's from on a plane, you know? And I looked at it. I was like, that's a really cool line. And it's like, I'm leaving high school. So I'm one more special than that. I can go home. And I like, now I listen to that song and I hear that. I go, well, that kind of has a whole different meaning now. It's a very sheltered kind of lyric. Like, yeah.

[00:27:56] So I guess starting at the beginning, can you talk about what kind of town Aberdeen is and what it was like growing up there? What kind of town is Aberdeen? It's a, it's a coastal logging town in Washington state. And it's really secluded. And it's about 200 miles away from Seattle, which is the only really large city in Washington state.

[00:28:25] And Olympia is about, you know, halfway in between those two towns. And Olympia has a little bit of culture. And that's, I went to that place more than I went to almost any other place during my youth to seek out punk rock and a lot of other types of music. Live music. What was it like growing up there? Just as a kid, was it kind of boring and hard to grow up there because you wanted much to do? Probably had to invent your own things to do.

[00:28:55] Yeah, well, we invented our own amusement. We vandalized, skipped school, smoked pot, smoked cigarettes. And that's about it. Listen to music. The local record store only had top 40 music. The local radio station only played top 40 music. So, I mean, we were pretty much just stuck with whatever was there in Aberdeen, you know?

[00:29:26] Do you think that's why, I mean, a lot of, aside from, I mean, the obvious way Nirvana sounds, you've got a real pop sensibility. Do you think that's where that came from? Or what kind of, was it your mom listening to stuff? Or what do you think you heard first that might have had a subconscious? Well, my parents were never music lovers. I don't recall my mom ever really owning any albums besides John Denver's Greatest Hits. Is that the Greatest Hits album where he's going like this with his hat on, hand on his hat like this?

[00:29:55] Is that the Greatest Hits album? Or just one of his popular records. I don't know. But that's about it. That and, um, and just top 40 radio. You know, Seasons in the Sun. Really white bread, white pop music. You know. Do you think that's what kind of seeped through? Or do you hope it was maybe something better than that sort of? Well, it must have seeped through. I mean, it must have had an effect on us. Yeah.

[00:30:24] Do you think, um, I mean, if you had lived in the utopian suburban neighborhood and maybe had the typical family and, you know, the Cosby show upbringing, do you think you still would have picked up a guitar and wanted to do what you did? The utopian neighborhood. You mean if I lived with Dr. Huxtable? Yeah, probably. I think so.

[00:30:52] My father one time, a few years ago, he wrote me a letter and he said, I would like, in one way or another, he said, you know, if it wasn't for, you know, living in an oppressed town, you know, you wouldn't have had, you wouldn't have had the incentive to really go out and prove something to anyone. And he likes to take credit for that, for bringing me in, you know, bringing me up in a small town. But, um, no.

[00:31:20] I'm sure I would have looked for punk rock and it just would have been easier for me and I would have gotten into it at an earlier age, you know. And I just would have, you know, I mean, I just think there's a breed of people who really honestly like music and there aren't very many of them really. You know, and those are the people who usually become musicians, you know. And, uh, it doesn't really matter what environment you grow up in. You know, it's just, you know, some environments are more restrictive than others.

[00:31:49] I found him aggressive but suspenseful, for lack of a better word. I was just like, I wonder what he's alluding to there. And I think hearing him again in more recent years, I feel like a lot of the music is just kind of, I don't ever feel like he's putting himself down. But I feel like he's showing what he's learned, showing what he thinks. It's definitely more personal, I guess.

[00:32:16] And I think everyone found a lot of relatability in a person who thinks is basically spewing their self-doubt thoughts out loud, kind of. He didn't come off like whiny to me in his. Yeah, no, I didn't find him whiny. Emo comes off like sometimes some of the emo acts, like it's like, oh God, stop whining. Stop it. Stop it. Yeah, there you go. Schwarzenegger comes in and says, stop it.

[00:32:46] It doesn't work here on Zoom, so. I'm going to give you the cane. Yeah. But I mean, you know, and it's not just them. Like Alice in Chains is amazing. I loved Soundgarden. Pearl Jam has a lot of stuff I like. Some of it I don't as much. But like, you know, they all just, they just hit a nerve, you know? And it was so different and new. And it wasn't like the.

[00:33:13] Like, who would have thought at one point people would be moving from like L.A. to Seattle during that time to try to get discovered? Yeah. It was just such a different, such a different vibe, you know, just a different way to go. Yeah. It's definitely an unusual vibe. I. Can you think of anyone else who. Has MTV Unplugged like as one of their first albums that comes up like people prefer that live version?

[00:33:45] Alice in Chains is pretty great, too. That's true. I think I think you're right. They're kind of the face of one of the many. Like when people think, yeah, the unplugged that. Yeah. You know, what's crazy about that show is he he's three days sober on that. Like he quit heroin. And they said, like, he was so fucking pissy the whole time and like so mad with the band. They didn't even know if they were going to play that show.

[00:34:13] Like there's a clip of it came up on my Instagram reels because I think we have the same algorithm where somebody yells play in bloom. He goes in bloom. Yes. How am I going to do that? Yeah. How am I going to do that? And then the live and loud was shortly after that, I believe. Which one? The live and loud. Oh, yeah. I think. Yeah, you're right. That was later that year. That year. And that's when he's like, you know, people are saying MTV sucks. He's like, then why are you here?

[00:34:42] Live and loud is like, oh, that was New Year's, right? That was New Year's. And that's one of my live concerts. Like I watched. They played blue on that. That's my. One of my. I know. That was crazy, too. I remember. I think I watched that at your house. I think anyway, but that was. That was. Cobain attended Stone Temple Piles and Butthole Surfer show at the Seattle Center Arena in 93. No, I didn't hear that. He was basically.

[00:35:11] Basically, butthole surfers opened and. He loved the balls. Yeah. Scott Whelan saw Kurt and stopped security from tossing him out. And it was an awkward interaction. And Kurt says to him, hey, people tell me you. You sound like Nirvana. You must owe me some publishing money then. And Scott actually took out a crumpled one dollar bill and gave it to him.

[00:35:40] I love STP. And unfortunately, they do get pegged a lot for all that stuff. They got pegged for all of them. I got a mixed up growing up, but I you can tell that they lean way harder, like into their vocal delivery. But. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think I think again. So the 90s revolutionized a lot of things, but then they screw it up for a lot of people who just weren't paying attention to that.

[00:36:04] But I guarantee you, if I were to reach out to some family members, they would be just like that they would piss all of us off here. They'd be like, oh, what's the difference between Alice in Chains and all this? I'm like, there's a lot of different things, but OK. Yeah. And one of the best dual vocal bands. History. I mean, Lane Staley and Jerry Cantrell. I mean, Lane Staley alone. I know. Vocals of all time. With Mike Patton from Faith Namor and Freddie Mercury.

[00:36:33] But then you add Jerry Cantrell in there and that's just the best vocal harmony I can think of. I can't. I can't. Yeah. Well, it's why they could do, you know, they can do dirt and then do Jar of Flies. Yeah. And it's like. You can't say it was the same album. Yeah. I mean, but they have that kind of vocal melody. I mean, you know, everything. Those two together. That's why I think I said the one show. They're probably the technically like the best band from that whole. That whole scene.

[00:37:03] Just because they have the. They probably too. I don't know. I mean, Cornell was a really good singer, too, though. Cornell was the light. Cornell was like a. And he was. And he was a really talented guy, too. Which it's sad that he died. But, you know. Cornell and Staley. Don't get the same play, right? Like as far as their death, it was. It was news. But Staley was kind of like almost gone by then. Like he was.

[00:37:31] I don't think anybody saw him for years. It was like six years to the day of Kurt Cobain. I know. It was weird. That was weird. Cornell was like a shocker because. Like all of a sudden, like that, that just came out of nowhere. But. Yeah. Yeah. I think. Cornell had just been so influential. He was definitely hard for me to keep up. It was like, OK, so you're part of Temple the dog. Yeah. You can get as near as much exposure as either Soundgarden or Audioslave.

[00:38:01] But. I think. Well, they only had the one album, too. So that was. There you go. Right. And. But yeah, Cornell is like I would see him do his solo stuff. And I'm like, geez, so he. His first solo record is like Euphoria Morning is like one of my favorite albums ever. It's so good from front to back. And it's so. It's like all over the place, a little weird. You know what I mean? It's like weird in parts.

[00:38:31] And then he's trying like a little almost like R&B on one of the songs that it's like, but it works and it's weird and like whatever. I mean, later on. And I got like I've seen him in interviews and stuff. He's like, I just wanted to try this. You know, he's like working with Timbaland in the shed. And that stuff I didn't love as much. But. But. Yeah. Well, I mean, all these guys, they were basically their own agent in a way, I think. Yeah. No one can schedule stuff. They.

[00:39:01] They figure out what they want to do. I actually didn't know that. To even Nirvana, when they did their best dub stuff, they were. They had some legal issues because, you know, a lot of them. Earlier on release material that just been with so many other labels. And. But I always. Are you talking about what like sub pop and stuff? I think it was the proposed box set of on release stuff they did in the late 90s.

[00:39:29] It surfaced in a one with the anniversary of Nevermind. But I just found that interesting how. Yes. There was always new merchandise just coming out. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or a group that had kind of been defunct. Yeah. Since. Mid 90s. Such a staple in society. And I think Courtney Love had a lot to do with the legal rights. If I'm not mistaken, Jake. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I. There.

[00:39:57] Well, and of all the artists involved with them, I guess I'll do a low down on. The main ones. So, yeah, there's Chris Novoselic, who's the bassist. And then there's Dave Grohl, who's part of the drum kit. Cobain's doing the singing, but he is also lead guitar. And other additional artists involved include Mark Lennigan, Dave Foster, Jason Everman, and Chad Channing and Pat Smear.

[00:40:28] Just an aside, Jason Everman's been in two of the biggest bands in history and just went off and lived a regular life after that. No sludge. And again, Chad Channing, who recorded Bleach. You know, Dave Grohl gives him all the credit in the world when they got inducted into the Hall of Fame. He's like, hey, you guys like him? He's like, that's all Chad. That wasn't me.

[00:40:54] I had no idea about all the different REM connections. I knew that they were at some venues. And I saw that Michael Stipe was the one who inducted them into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2014. But apparently, REM producer... What's his name?

[00:41:21] Scott Light remixed the singles, Heart Shaped Box, and All Apologies. Oh, yeah. So that was the... Oh, my God. What? I might have drawn a blank. He was the guy who did Surfer... Who... Who... Who produced in utero? I can't remember his name. He just died. Butch Vig. I keep wanting to say Butch Vig. Butch Vig was the... But he was... Never mind. He did Surfer Rosa anyway. That's why they picked him. But I know... I know Steve Albini was the producer. Albini, thank you.

[00:41:50] And people thought it was a little flat and Light came in, basically. Well, because he did... He did like lo-fi type of productions almost. Right. We gotta be huge. We gotta be bigger. And I think Kurt was into it. It's very weird reading up on him because he's like... Right? In one instance, he hates fame. Yes. In the other instance, he's like, I can't put this out. It's like suicide. You know what I mean?

[00:42:20] Like, it's career suicide. Which I guess anybody could get into that frame of mind if you got that big, too. Right? Like, you probably hate it and love it at the same time. I think that's why he's kind of liked. He comes off less as a show-off. Yeah. Definitely more genuine. That also makes better sense why he wants to help out other guys who he admires. Like Jonah Knife and Meat Puppets. But...

[00:42:49] And everyone's like, hey, we want to talk about you. He's like, I want to talk about who I admire, who should... Yeah. He was very big on that. In fact, he used to draw... Like, even on his guitar and stuff, he'd draw a lot of the bands that he liked just so he could try to get people to get into them and stuff. But... It's pretty much free advertising, but I think it helps that it's legit. Like, he's like, hey, what's up, man? Yeah. You know, they're weird. They're an accident to me, though.

[00:43:18] Like, looking back on it, I think they're just almost accidental. It almost seems like... That would make better sense why no one can replicate that. They don't know why it worked. Yeah. Taking note. It almost feels like one of the other bands should have got bigger before that. It's funny you bring that up, Jay. I was trying to find a way to segue into this, and you just gave me the perfect way. There's a great documentary that came out in 1995. It's called Hike. Oh, that's a great documentary. And it's about the whole...

[00:43:45] It's about the whole Seattle sound and the whole Seattle scene. And Kim Thale from Soundgarden has a great quote. He said... Because they were the first one. Well, they were one of the first ones. It obviously was Green River, then Mother Love Bone, Temple of the Dog. I promise I will watch that. And Kim Thale says... It's like having a lemonade stand. You have this lemonade stand, and everybody likes it. And then somebody down the street opens another lemonade stand, and everybody flocks to their lemonade stand.

[00:44:14] You go, well, what about my lemonade? My lemonade is way better. And that was him kind of describing how other... Like, he wasn't shit-talking, because later on he talks about how much he admires them. They were friends with everybody. But he's kind of saying, like, why are they getting popular? We've been here. We should be the one who gets popular. Yeah. Why can't we all just share the stage? And we're doing the same thing. Why is this standing out to more people versus this crowd? Hype's the one where...

[00:44:46] Didn't somebody call Sub Pop, like, one of the New York Times or somebody, and they wanted to know some grunge lingo? And they all just started making it up on the phone. They're like, we go schlogging on Saturday night. They're like, what's that? And they printed all this stuff in the newspaper. That was just bullshit. It's like a band name. There is no reason to it, but it's our own little private joke. Yeah, it was funny. And someone who, again, just no discretion whatsoever,

[00:45:15] just not asking enough questions, jotting it all down. And to be fair, you kind of had to if you're doing it over the phone and there's no way to, you know, record it. To verify any of that stuff either. Yeah. It was like, once you put it down, you can't retract it. You might be open to a legal shitstorm if it's really off color. Well, you could see like what the hype was. Like, remember they had that, what was the movie?

[00:45:42] Singles they made in 1992, which was just straight up based off of that. Nirvana's like the only one who's not in that band, I mean, in that movie. Isn't it sad that a movie that's just okay is liked even more just because of the music that's played in it? Yeah. I still love that movie. I mean, the whole love storyline is kind of silly, but I do love that movie because it's not even just the music because the soundtrack's fantastic. Right.

[00:46:10] But, you know, like when we were kids, what did that come out, 92 or 93, I think? I think so. 92-ish, yeah. 92. And it's like, you know, we're engulfed in the grunge scene in our heads and listening to it and then you get to see a movie, what it's like living there. And it's like, oh man, I really wish I could live there. Yeah. In that moment. Just go to one club and see Alice in Chains and walk down the street and see Soundgarden and then walk down the street and see Pearl Jam. They're everywhere. That would be amazing. Probably like seven bucks to get in or something too. Yeah.

[00:46:40] Like a two drink minimum. I think it was said before why Nirvana didn't make the movie soundtrack in time, but I can't remember the reason why. Remember it offhand. I just know. It's funny. Do you ever see the movie PCU with Jeremy Piven? Yes. That's another one getting a resurgent. George Clinton's the band in that, but Nirvana was supposed to be the band. Yes. What could have been? It might've given them some exposure, but I don't think he was dead yet.

[00:47:07] I think it was just something that the record company wouldn't let them be in the movie or something like that. I don't remember the exact. I think you're right. There was some cock blocking. There was like some, some kind of gatekeeping. Hold up. I'm going to look at that up now, actually. They were ruled out for being too expensive. Okay. Too expensive. Yeah. It was something. The Google dolls were considered and the director thought they wouldn't be appropriate for this. And so he's like, yeah, let's go with it. I don't want to say it.

[00:47:39] I mean, that movie probably would have been way different with Nirvana or Google dolls in it. Like George Clinton was the perfect choice for that. Yeah. Yeah. Some artists you could just, you're going to hear in just about all kinds of eras. Yeah. I mean, Nirvana, you could argue is going to be used in furthermore other eras, but. Yeah. I mean, if they, let's say they were still making music now, I guarantee you someone would eventually want to be like, Oh, you hacks. They were never that great.

[00:48:09] It's like, I think in a way they, they got out when they really actually did need to get out. Like, well, that's yeah. You bring up a good point. I think about that a lot. Like. Could have continued it and then. Yeah. There's a legacy and a myth there at this point because he died. I think that's where I was going. And I, I forgot, I forgot to get there. Staley and Chris Cornell. I mean, Staley was out of the limelight for a long time.

[00:48:38] At that point, Cornell was in it, but I mean, he's 53 years old. He's got so much other shit, you know, so many bands and so many this and that. And. He's around long enough that it's kind of like talking about Metallica, right? Like some people. See Metallica, you know, as like the first five records and like some people see them from the black albums on and stuff, but. Like Nirvana's got three.

[00:49:06] They're pretty much at the height. There are also three records that are like different from each other enough like that. You see like this kind of weird sequential growth in some way, but he goes out. He also it's so violent the way he went out. It was such a like a. It was such a shocking thing, you know, at the time. I remember hearing about it. Ryan will probably remember this.

[00:49:35] You might not have ever seen this, but do you remember like channel was a channel 13 where people used to put their their like shit for sale was basically like the Craigslist type of deal. But video. Yeah, it was a public thing. And how do you even pay for pay for airtime of that? It was it was literally like I mean, this is way before satellite and real cable. It was like channel. It wasn't 13. That's PBS for us.

[00:50:05] It's like channel 12. 12 maybe. Or it's like it was literally like just digital. You pay like five bucks to the local cable company. Right. Put an ad up and people. A lot of it was like congratulations to my high school graduate. Blah, blah, blah. And it would have like, you know, their picture or whatever. And it was so weird. It was local access. Like what Wayne's world is essentially. Right. But OK, that makes better sense. It was just ads. Right. But they would play music and then they play like news sometimes at the top of

[00:50:34] the hour or whatever. That's wild. I was at my friend's house and we were like talking and then he said something about Nirvana. Hold on. Hold on. Why are they talking about Nirvana on here? And all I heard was at the end, they're like, it's thought that the Rome overdose or something was a suicide attempt. I'm like attempt. And that was like a month before. That was the day John Candy died. Yes.

[00:51:00] And I was like, why are they talking about the Rome overdose? I didn't hear the beginning. But it wasn't until like I got home and I had a lot of phone calls. And then and then my dad told me like he just said. He's like, oh, your uncle called, too. He's like, he wants he wants to know if you know about the guy who died. And I was like, what does that mean? Yeah. Like a lot of people die every day. Dad, I hate to tell you this. Yeah.

[00:51:30] But he told me and I was like, I was so shocked. Like, I remember like I had to sit like I was in such shock about it. I was walking. I was in seventh grade and I've told the story. I don't know if I told on our show. I told my other show. So I was walking home from school. I had a Walkman every day and school was like a mile and a half from my house. And I forgot a tape in the Walkman one day. So I was trying to tune into a radio station walking home from school. And it was very fuzzy.

[00:51:58] It was like, and all I heard was the body of Kurt Cobain found dead. And I was like, wait, what? And I ran a mile and a half home. And I, if you know me, I don't like to run ever. But I ran a mile and I turned on MTV and it was that famous Kurt Loder. The body of Kurt Cobain is, you know, and been found in his Aberdeen house. And like that classic, I think me and Jay used to joke around about this. Like I'll tell you, if you've never seen Nirvana live, well, now you never will. Wow.

[00:52:29] Guess what, kids? Guess what, kids? Nirvana, you're never going to see them live now. You know what? Have they ever attempted a hologram? Because they don't have it with Michael Jackson and all these other artists who are more like John Lennon. I'm surprised no one has attempted a Cobain. I don't know if people are afraid to touch that well. Yeah, I mean, I could see it with Michael Jackson, though, because it's like a performative art almost. Like with him. You know what I mean? Like he did the moonwalk and he did.

[00:52:57] Although it'd be cool if they started like exploding stuff on stage. There is a way to make it cheap, like make it look like sparks are flying off without actual shit getting set aflame. And I mean, I'm sure everybody here has seen the 99 Woodstock documentary by Vice. And it's just like, I think this is it.

[00:53:21] I think a lot of ones that were so ambitious back then, people are just afraid that it'll get out of control. It's like, well, just ask yourself, people, who's in charge here? Plan it out. Coordinate. Plan it. You'll get your money back. You can get wild people and still have a safe, secure event. But I get it.

[00:53:42] I get that not everyone wants all the time to deal with all the tickets, food, hotels, coordinating all that. And it is a pain. I don't even know what the price of something like that is nowadays, though. It's in the thousands, probably. Yeah. I think it's more like, how do you get that many people to pay? Although they still have these things, right? They have like Coachella and all that kind of shit. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:08] But I mean, I've seen groups like the old 97s and Cheap Trick who will perform at like state fairs. Well, yeah. They really are cheap. But so it does make you wonder, like, who just needs the work versus who has their, you know, certain worth where they will not. They're not. They are very much like an actor, whereas like if you have anything under a million, don't even bother calling us. But I do wonder who.

[00:54:36] How they all gauge it, how they decide which venues are worthy and. Who I wouldn't be surprised if the agents also pimp them out, just say, hey, you know. Yeah. It's interesting because you see some of these acts, though. Right. Like, so a band I always felt bad for was the Pixies because I felt like they kind of. Yeah. Nirvana doesn't exist in the way they existed. Like, never mind doesn't. Is it made that way without the Pixies?

[00:55:06] The Pixies. Yeah. Took that soft, loud, soft, loud sound and just were awesome with it and perfected. And that really affected Kurt Cobain a lot in his writing. But I always felt bad for him. But like on tour, they killed it when they came around like 20 years later and got all together. You know, like I remember trying to get tickets for that. And I was like, Jesus Christ, I can't. It was just funny.

[00:55:33] I was like, I didn't realize like how many people respected them now. Well, yeah, it's a nostalgia for that. And is that whole Post Malone being like reunion tour with Nirvana? Is that real? I don't know if that's a real thing. Because I've read stuff where every time they play live with David and Chris and Pat, they always have a female singer because they don't want a male to try to replicate the Kurt voice.

[00:56:01] But they let Post Malone do it because he's such a fan and he covers Nirvana on his live show. All the time, yeah. So, I mean, I can't imagine them touring with him. And if they do, I wouldn't go see it. No. It's not the same. It's not the same. And it's like going to see a cover band. But it's like, oh, two of the members of the original band are actually in the band. I feel like covers. It's like the doors getting like Jim Morrison. It's like the doors when they had the singer from the cult. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:30] That's a good way to go about it. Oh, and I think a cover band works best if you take a style and then perform other songs. But you got to change up the lyrics instead of just repeat every inch of the song. It's just like anybody can do that. Yeah. Unless you're a tribute band and you have to be exact and you have to dress and look exact. I play in cover band, so I know the whole feel. You know the... No pressure, man. No heat.

[00:57:00] No pressure at all. We'll return after these messages. If you like small town mystery, crazy news, and wild history, then the Florida Men on Florida Man podcast is for you. Each week, Josh Mills and Wayne McCarty bring you the absolute best Florida has to offer. So if you're looking for a show that's safe for the family, but funny enough to help you escape everyday life,

[00:57:28] then listen to the Florida Men on Florida Man podcast. That's Florida Men, plural, on Florida Man podcast. Hey, it's Brent Pope, the host of Breakfast with Brent Pope. You've seen me on some of your favorite TV shows saying things like, give it up, Jimmy. You got to sink this putt to win. On Breakfast with Brent Pope, I sit down with guests for the entertainment world, and we do it all over breakfast. Or should I say Brent-fist? Every week on Brent-fist, you get inside Hollywood info and tips, great breakfast wrecks and booty debates. Most of all, you get the most delightful 30 minutes of your week.

[00:57:57] So dig in. It's Brent-fist time. Listen at Brent-fist.com, Apple Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are found. Didn't Leonard Skinner, didn't they have the singer's son play with them or something? His brother. His brother. Oh, wow. That's always weird to me. That's weird to me. It was like what was wrong with that. That was the original one. Special guest star. Yeah. Like, my brother's dead. I'll take the wheel. I got this.

[00:58:28] Yeah. You look and sound exactly like him. I know. That was the other thing, too. It's like... It's been a long day longer than... I know. You're like... Oh, man. So... I'd like to be positive a bit, but not hold back. So, what are the accolades that Nirvana has gotten? They got in the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award in 2023.

[00:58:51] They got in 96, previously the best alt-rock, alt-music performance for their MTV Unplugged album. That was back in 95. And they've gotten the Brit Award, the NME Award, two of those, and seven MTV Video Music Awards. So, Rolling Stone placed them number 30 on the 100 Greatest Artist of All Time in 2010.

[00:59:22] And Smells Like Teen Spirit was voted number one on MTV's greatest music videos of all time in 96. Well, that knocked off 91. That knocked off Black or White from... Michael Jackson. Yeah. Yeah. That's a hell of a thing. Yeah. They kind of undid their progress there for a while. They weren't playing artists of color. And then David Bowie said, I'm going to bitch slap you if you don't play it. And now, then they're just like, oh, but... We'll pay more time to it, but it's going to win less.

[00:59:52] That was like the craziest conversation because when you realize what year it is, it was like 84 or something. And they're like... Yeah, I like to act like, oh, well, people are making... Like it wasn't... Yeah. That's over. That, you know, 100 years ago, people were racist. That advanced in the 80s and I think 1990, I forget which group did this, but they took off being gay as a mental illness in like 1990.

[01:00:18] So we weren't that advanced, but we had just more opportunities to become famous and make an impression and shock the world if you were a celebrity. So go into the accolades and you kind of segue into something for me. Yes. I think... I always want to do like a podcast on this one, too. But like about like the myth of Kurt Cobain versus like the man.

[01:00:46] Because he's kind of got this like mythological status. I mean, his stardom is super short. You know, it's... Very short. Is it three years? I don't even know because September... 88 to 94. Well, but as far as stardom... 92. 91. September of 91. And he's dead, you know, in 94 by April. So... Yeah. It's a short term thing. And...

[01:01:17] But like where he was really influential and about before his time, at least like it... It made me think about that stuff was like his... The way he used to defend, right? Like... Friends and games. Yeah. The LGBTQ community. He's like 20 years ahead of everybody else. I can see people... That's their Jesus. Yeah.

[01:01:42] Especially if they weren't going to a church and they just needed someone who was talking head as much as a talent. Who just somehow spoke to him. I think... But I would say to hit on that, the whole myth continues. He's very... I struggled just even before this episode. I really don't know why he speaks to everybody. I think he just... He's open for more interpretation. That sounds like a chicken shit answer, but I'm just like... He kind of... I think the music is like an open sore.

[01:02:12] I don't know how to explain it. I think that is. Yeah. It's like it bleeds. We all bleed differently. We all live differently. He's gone so quickly. Like you're just getting to know him. And then he's gone. And, you know, I've had this conversation with my mother who does not like Nirvana. But she respects them. Because she looks at them like... When an Elvis... That's just noise. You kids. Yeah. No, it's not even that. Like she's just not into the music.

[01:02:40] But like, you know, she loves the Stones and the Beatles and Fleetwood Mac and all that. And she looks at it like, you know, Elvis changed music. Then the Beatles changed music. Then Zeppelin changed music. And she's... We all have our cutoff point. I mean, we do this with today's music. We can't deny certain artists who will always start out of the stadium. I like some of today's artists, but not as many. No. Right. But she just respects that, you know, she hated 80s music. Hated it. Oh, so there you go. So she wouldn't have been even part of the 90s crowd. She's like...

[01:03:09] No, but she just... She just... But she respects the fact that when Nirvana came out, rock and roll came back. Okay. She's like, you know, I don't like him, but, you know, music got a little bit better for a little while when he came out. You know? Oh, okay. Okay. So that's a breakthrough to what's an otherwise impenetrable subject. Okay. Sorry. Right. No, I was going to say, so I think musically what he did great was...

[01:03:37] I always look at them as he took... The difference with him... All right. Like when you look at a punk band, right? Like look at the Sex Pistols, right? There you go. I think he kind of took that, but he merged it with... The Melody of the Beatles. He's one of those few guys who... Like he loved like the Beatles and Lennon and the Knack and the first... Yeah.

[01:04:03] And I think what he had going for him was like just this outstanding sense of melody. Yeah. So as violent and as loud or whatever you want to say about the music. I think that symphony. Yeah. It's just... He knew how to bring that together. I mean, that's the one thing he had definitely. If you watch the classic albums on VH1 when that was a thing, but it's on YouTube. Right. Nevermind.

[01:04:31] And he says when they recorded in Bloom for the second time, because Chad Channing did the first one, Butch Vig wanted to double his vocals and Dave Grohl's vocals. And Kurt didn't want to do it. And Butch Vig says, I can get Kurt to do anything if I said Lennon did it. And so he plays it. He goes, this is just Kurt's vocals. This is Kurt with Dave's. This is double Kurt's. This is double Dave's. And it's just... It's a world of difference.

[01:04:59] And he did that because Butch Vig said John Lennon did it. And so all of a sudden you guys saw... If you listen to the original In Bloom with Chad Channing, it's a great song. But then you listen to the one on Nevermind, it's like, that's probably my favorite Nirvana song because the melody and the harmony, the song is just so good. And everything in that song clicks on the right cylinder. It does. That's a very... I really love In Bloom. I've always loved it since I heard it.

[01:05:27] But it's like, it clicks right. But even though... What is the solo? It's just... We don't know why it clicks. It's just hard to decipher. I guess you could say it's more David Lynch-en than David Lynch. It's just like, how I interpret it frees me up. I didn't realize that he had one daughter and it's Frances Bean and she controls the publicity rights to her father's name and image now. She's married to Tony Hawk's son. Yeah.

[01:05:56] I hope they have enough money to live. Yeah. I didn't realize that either. I forget that. Yeah. She's a... She married Tony Hawk's son and they just had a kid and Tony Hawk just made a quote. Riley Hawk. Wow. Yeah. I wish Kurt were alive to see his granddaughter. Man. I don't see. I see that she's a visual artist and a model. I don't know. And she's so hot. I'm sorry. She's so hot. I'm not denying that. I just... I just... I just... It's wild. Like...

[01:06:26] If you don't go to some of these rock and roll websites and since we don't do magazines at even gas stations anymore, how do you get exposure to new music artists who are out now? It's like Spotify took over everything. Yeah. The algorithms are like... No one gets it. Well, how do you even make a living now? Because it's not... Oh, well, that's... Well, that's the touring, right? Like we were talking about. Or the other thing is like... People aren't willing to go to as many concerts. But like... That's why they're on...

[01:06:54] That's why you'll see like somebody you'd never thought doing The Voice or something. And it's like... Yeah. Because that's how they fucking make money now. They have to. Weird Al actually... To bring it back to Weird Al, which you brought up earlier, Cam. Weird Al, years ago when he released Tacky and Foil. He said... Which are two great songs. I love Weird Al. Love them. I'm Tacky! Such a good video. Everything about it is perfect. I love it.

[01:07:19] He said he doesn't even see himself releasing another album because he'll release singles on YouTube and he'll actually make money from that because people will watch it and then he can monetize it. So that's how... Like a lot of these artists... I work with a couple people that are like aspiring musicians and they said like they'll release a song on YouTube and just promote it, promote it, put clips on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and all this stuff. And then it gets enough hits that they can actually monetize it.

[01:07:49] And then, you know, the guys I work with are making, you know, pennies on the dollar. Yes. Weird Al is going to make millions of dollars because he's going to get, you know, 50 million views on a video. So that's, I think, you know, to bring up... To tie it back in, there's no digital media where you can sit there and look at the, you know, the album art and the lyrics and all that stuff. But you can go on YouTube and as soon as you watch the video, that's another click. That's another dollar for them. That's how they're making their money. So even if they don't make the money on the tour, they just release another song on YouTube.

[01:08:19] There you go. They figure out the algorithm before it's even an algorithm. It's like they... I mean, I think it helps that there's all these other third party sites that will share these different things. So anyone who's constantly checking the different forum and everything, they already have it locked in. But man... That economy is really weird. I think, like... How do you keep up with it? It's so... Where do we go?

[01:08:46] For us as podcasters, it's like, you know, oh, if you get 50,000 views and 200 subscribers, we'll give you a dollar. Yeah. Okay. Or let me try. Okay. Well, how do you do that? Well, we have to have content. All right. So let me... You know, I've been doing this recently with our show. Let me post a shit ton of videos of just clips. Yes. Okay. Wow. That got 400 views. And the other one... Didn't even have to try. Yeah.

[01:09:15] The one's got two. And the one that got two, you're like, should be good. This is the one I liked. This is the one that's... This one I thought was going to take me somewhere, you know? I mean, I'm sure we all did this with podcasting. It's like, why did everyone listen to the episode I made less time for? Oh, dude. The one I thought sucked, but I need to release something. The one I thought was on Front Face Lock when I was doing that show. We did a DX in your house from 1997, and it got like 400 listens.

[01:09:44] And I'm like, why that one? Of all the ones, yes. And you could never tell... And it got quoted on dirt sheets. That only got like 100. And this one got 400. Like, how is that even possible? Yeah. I'll never understand it. And I think like... Sometimes I think you just have to like... In order to make it, it's just like sell... I don't know. Like sell your soul and just keep putting as much content everywhere. Like... I'm glad you love it. I don't know why it works at all.

[01:10:14] Yeah. Nobody knows how this works. And then you get some guy that's just posting videos of his... It's provocative. No one knows what... There's the YouTube guy that just goes, fuck this shit. And then he jumps into something and starts screaming. He's got millions of views. And we're talking about... Between the... You know, our shows and your show and everything. We're talking about very interesting topics. And we're like, we got 30 listens on this one. What? What? Sam's right though. Like I never understand like my most popular one. I'm like, really?

[01:10:44] Is it the key word? Is it the crazy title of the episode? And we happen to be... It was... Mine is like so direct. I had like a nurse on talking about burnout. And I was like, oh, this is a cool like filler in between stuff. I think someone needed some healing. And it was like... All I can think is a bunch of nurses shared it to each other. That could be it too. I'll take it. That's cool. And then there's some that like blow up for a day. Like this could be huge.

[01:11:11] And then it's like nobody listens to it ever again. And then I have one that like... I have one now from like two years ago. Every day, three or four people are listening to it. And now it's got like a pretty good amount of listens. But I'm like, where? Why? Like why now? I wish I could figure out where it is and like where it's shared. What's the point in the episode that people go, this is so interesting. I have to share this with my friend. I never... I will never understand.

[01:11:40] And it's like... And then it's like, what the hell is the algorithm? I'm sure you want to understand. Yeah. I want to understand because I want to... Like I don't even care about making money on it. That'd be fantastic. I just want people like... I, you know, I listen to your show, Cam, and it's fucking phenomenal. And your J show... Whatever. It's okay. Okay. You trying to start jealousy here? No, that's how... That's how we know the show is over. We start arguing. We start arguing. Wow.

[01:12:08] But what I'm doing with him and my brother now, there's genuine moments where I'm editing laughing hysterically. I'm like, okay, this is definitely going to get a lot of listens because there's no way people are not going to think what we just did was fun. Like the Droopy Dog thing. I could not stop laughing while I was editing that. And it got a lot of... It got listens. It got a decent amount of listens. But I'm like, this... What is wrong with you? Like, do you not have a sense of humor?

[01:12:37] Like, you know, we just released one about aliens with Smith from the story of... And it's like, this is so interesting. Yeah, granted, I released it five hours ago. But I'm like, this should still have more listens than it does in the last five hours. It's fucking interesting. And with, you know, Cam, with your show, I mean, you get thousands and thousands of followers. And it... But it's like, you know, I'm sure... It's an investment. But it's... Yeah, it is. We had to... We didn't get that way overnight.

[01:13:05] There's episodes I've remastered and I've been like, yeah, I can't actually do anything with this episode. Like, we just recorded an argument, basically. And that's what we try not to do. And so I think everyone's got to keep learning, keep doing something different and keep falling into it. I'm so happy to have people who we meet up with weekly and we play off each other. And when we're out of steam, like, we go into producer mode.

[01:13:33] It's like, okay, now let's wrap up. You know, we speak all these languages. And you guys have that rapport as well, especially when you bring your brother Sean on. You know, you know the do's and don'ts. I've never met in my entire life, by the way. I'm being, like, very biased, I guess. But... No, he's a star. He's literally one of the funniest people I've ever known in my entire life. Can take the most mundane shit you've done. You will complete each other's sentences.

[01:14:02] It's like, oh, I was going to say it if you weren't going to say it. Sometimes, though, where he starts talking and you go, I can't, I'm not even going to say a word. I'm not going to interject. Yeah, like when he gets, he has a good rant every episode. I told him that last time. Like, it's just like, yeah, it's like, I'm like, oh, man, I wish I could rant like that. Holy shit. It's so calm and smooth. And it's like, just flows. Like, how do you think of this shit? I know. He really is. I think this is the definition of these artists we follow. They don't know why it works.

[01:14:32] But everyone keeps telling them, I'll keep doing it. So they keep doing it until they're like, I'm done, dude. That's all I have to say. And I. Special message to go and then I'm done and then I can go home. Yeah. That's what it is. And, you know, to tie it back into Nirvana, we got off topic. But for me with Nirvana, if I may speak personally for a split second. Yes.

[01:15:03] Growing up, I always wanted to be in bands. I always wanted to be a musician. Me and Jay as well, obviously. You know, we learned how to play guitar. But then, like, we listened to bands like Metallica and Megadeth and Slayer and, you know, all these bands where it's like, I can't do that. I can't. It's too much. Yeah. It's too much. And then I hear Nirvana and I go, what? What is that? Like, I'm wearing a flat old shirt right now that I wear almost every day. Jake and Nirvana.

[01:15:28] And this is literally, I bought this because Kurt Cobain wears this shirt on a boat in an interview from 1993. He's on a boat doing an interview. Jay's going to look it up right now. I can tell. I saw the body. I saw this. I was at jail. I'll send you like, I saw this shirt online. I go, that's the shirt. And I fucking bought it. And every time I'm off, this is my, like, I'm home casual shirt. And I bought it because Kurt Cobain wore it.

[01:15:58] Me and Jay growing up when I actually had hair, we had long hair. Such long hair. And we would. I saw a video where Kurt had his hair pink. I'm going to dye my hair pink. Oh, I saw a video where it's green now. I'm going to dye my hair green. His hair stayed. My hair did not. I tried to grow it out a couple of years ago. It wasn't the same though. Oh, so there you go. There's. Like we would buy any color we could find. Just rub it on our hands with the gloves and put it in. Yeah. It's like, why is your hair pink?

[01:16:27] Well, Kurt had his hair pink this week. So there you go. No one can just find this mystery of someone you want to be like and emulate. But, you know, this is before internet trends. This is before other fashion stuff. Just like, yeah, I. Something about this person just perplexes us. But. In a good way. It hits you at a certain point in your life. Like I was. 91. I was 10. Jay, you were 11, 12, 12, I think. And.

[01:16:57] You know, 91. You're. You know, I was in seventh grade or no. 91. Fuck. I was in fifth grade. And. And I was just like. Jesus. Like, you know, I always loved. You know, my mom raised me on Clapton and the Doors and Fleetwood Mac and the Stones and the Beatles. There you go. My brother got me into Metallica and Guns N' Roses was always one of my favorite bands and all this metal. And then all of a sudden I hear Nirvana and I go. So different. What is this?

[01:17:27] What genre is it? It's four chords. And it just, you know, he's screaming, but it's it's melodic. And, you know, holy shit. And there's other bands like this. What did tell me more about that? And I just opened up and I was just like, you know, then I, you know, besides the big four, you learn about Mudhoney and Screaming Trees and Tad and all these other bands like Gakini Kill and Home. Like you hear about all these other bands.

[01:17:56] You go, God, this is a whole different world of music. They've existed. But I do find it also funny how which artists are only known because another artist was emulating them or doing just one side of the same coin. And it's like and I'm seeing people do this with film snobs. It's like, yeah, OK, well, I knew about that artist. I didn't know why you had to hear that guy say in an interview he was inspired by this person for them to matter to you all of a sudden.

[01:18:26] But whatever, man, whatever makes you check it out. But it's it's just like nothing is ever 100 percent their thing. And half the time they don't even know they're emulating it. But I guarantee you, Cobain would be caught dead actually just being, you know, just stealing kind of goes with just whatever's in his mind. I think I think instead of he's doing covers of this and that he's.

[01:18:57] He's just a very passionate guy who, you know, as unfortunate left us, but like I don't see any. I think he just avoids a lot of pretentious trends that many artists. And that's why I think, hey, you and I talked about this on one of the last episodes. That's why I love the song. You know, you're right, because it kind of showed where the band was going. No, you're right. So, yes, that's a deep cut. That's great.

[01:19:26] So I love I know Jay is not a huge fan of it. My problem is like I don't picture it as like his song yet, though. So I know, yeah, because it was because the guitar, I get I understand what your point of view, Jack, but I just think if that was what the song was supposed to be, and I kind of take that road, it shows where the evolution of the band was going to like, you know, you go from Bleach to Nevermind to in utero and you see the band evolve. Yeah.

[01:19:53] You hear that song, you go, all right, so that might be where they were going next. And I'm kind of on board with that. But, you know, I would have liked to hear the stuff he was doing with Michael Stipe, which was supposed to be very acoustic because he was like, obviously from, you know, fucking acoustics that he was amazing. No one knew where to put him. It was like, are you pop? Are you folk? Are you country? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It would have been interesting.

[01:20:22] I just I don't know. I don't know what happens to him, though, like because I feel like there's obviously like I've read the articles before, too, where they were calling him like the voice of the generation. But I don't remember. I don't remember it that way. Like, I remember them. It does sound like all history kind of linking it. It's like you appreciated him, but no one was saying that at the time. I think as soon as he died the way he did, all of a sudden everybody was like, fuck, you know what? That guy did. Congressmen are like, we went too hard on him. You can't understand, too.

[01:20:52] Cam, like when we. Metal's not brainwashing us. When we were growing up, like if I wore a Nirvana shirt to school, I was. Principal's office now. Yeah. Yeah. Like people are like, oh, my God, you got to you like Nirvana. It was like your best. I'll wear a Nirvana shirt. Oh, you got long hair. Like it wasn't like socially acceptable. Yeah. Was after he died. That's even before the whole emo kind of becoming bigger in the 2000s. It was like everyone was just like they're still looking at you like a freak, but they don't

[01:21:21] even know the words to put to it. They're just like, away, leave. Like there was a small group of people in our, you know, Jay and I have known each other since we were, you know, five years old. I might as well have been bigots telling you that, you know, what's going on? We had a small group of friends that was like, we all listen to Nirvana. You know, the two of us, my brother. You're different than me. How dare you? And I'd wear a Nirvana shirt to school and they'd be like, just freak over here. We're in a Nirvana shirt. And it's like, really?

[01:21:52] Like it's the biggest band in the world. So like that whole, like he was the voice of the generation. Is it just cool to hate them? Is it? Well, I think that's a big part of it. I think we all kind of do that though. Especially if we don't know the band. We might just get like, oh God, I don't want to hear about this shit. I'm sorry, Ryan. I cut you. It's funny because Gibby Hayden, bring it back to butthole servers like you were talking about before, who I love. Gibby Hayden had a great quote about Kurt Cobain. He said if Kurt Cobain were alive today, this was 20 years ago.

[01:22:21] He goes, if Kurt Cobain was alive today and heard the music that was out, he could kill himself. I do wonder. I think about him a lot. But I keep forgetting who says that exact. I think about him a lot with like what came out because he didn't hold back on any of that shit. Like he was even friendly with Pearl Jam and he still would kind of be like, I mean, I guess I can respect them. He didn't get at them. Yeah. But he's like the most peaceful guy. And it, I think.

[01:22:50] Lennon was that way too, right? He's a lot like Lennon. I think that's where the Lennon parallels come in. Just another artist who. He couldn't lie. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Mike Patton's the same way. Like if he doesn't like you, he's going to tell you he doesn't like you. And this sounds cynical in a way, but I don't mean it to sound mean, I guess. I'm kind of. I don't want to say I'm glad. I'm kind of at peace with the fact that he did kill himself when he did because.

[01:23:21] A. You don't know where he was going to go. Right. It could have sucked. And now we do have this mythology about him. Yes. That we're talking about right now. And that, you know, people like Jay and I lived through it and we can kind of have certain eyes. But then you saw them. You're on this side. You saw him a little after us. So you have a different point of view of it. So you have to have that discussion about it.

[01:23:48] If he was still alive and he was still playing, you might be like, oh, man, Murmada really sucks now. Like, why did this guy die? Like, you know. So it's almost better for his myth that he did. Oh, yeah. Like what you were saying earlier, Jay, like Lane Staley, he was out of the spotlight for 10 years or at least at that point. So when he died, it was like, fuck, I love the House of Chains, but they weren't really doing anything. But I thought he was dead. Yeah.

[01:24:17] I thought he was dead already. Yeah. Well, I was we did kind of hit on that earlier is like artists who we thought were relevant, but they didn't picture it that way. And it's I mean, I do do this with other famous people where I'm like, well, I feel sad about this person because I've never heard anything messed up about him. It seems like they're as normal as you're going to get for that kind of celeb versus this person.

[01:24:44] Like, this is a mysterious dad, but it's not a priority for any. Well, it's Heath Ledger was, you know, when he died, it's like, God, that fucking sucks. You know, his Joker's top two of all time. We liked him before even that, you know, it's like things I hate about you. I love that movie. But it's like you also have to look at it like maybe he might be doing, you know, fucking Caddyshack three, you know.

[01:25:11] So so maybe it's I think there's certain artists, you know, actors, musicians, whatever, that it actually is. It's I'm not trying to sound fucked up, but it's more beneficial for their career and their mythology that they do die when they do, because then they become legendary. If that makes sense. Because maybe it wouldn't be as legendary as he is now.

[01:25:39] It is weird to think of an alternate reality where. They have an album that doesn't sell all that great and they teeter out and Cobain said, I mean, I can picture an alternate reality where Cobain says, I'm done with music. I hate this. I wondered that, too. And Dave Grohl does his thing, maybe. And I don't mean I don't know what happens with Foo Fighters. It's different. I think he still probably would have been Foo Fighters.

[01:26:07] He did write Alone and Easy Target when Kurt was alive, because there's an interview with Dave Grohl where he says he played him the demo of that. Right. Hugged him and said that's one of the greatest songs I've ever heard. Oh, that's just it. I think I think Cobain was just so good at just kind of he understood where everyone was, but he said a lot while saying very little. And.

[01:26:36] Like, he could be joking and you wouldn't know he was really being cynical or. Over the top and. With a compliment, like. I guess that's why the pureness of it kind of comes out in some of the music, like you're having stuff that should actually technically be disturbing or morbid, like some of the other stuff around that time. But he somehow is just waxing an unusual, pleasant tune about somewhat depressing subject matter.

[01:27:05] So it's I think this is it. I think he. He literally is a glass case of emotion. If we're going to quote Anchorman, he is. He he's got all this stuff in one giant hive that kind of just echoed to all kinds of people. But yeah, where he got where he would have gone from there, it really is anyone's guess. I don't think the bandmates knew where they were going from there. They were getting comfy with the fame. Yeah.

[01:27:33] I mean, I think Dave was going to go out at some point on his own. He definitely had it. He downplays it. But it's like, yeah, dude, you you knew where you were going to go. You knew you had some idea and you went when you were ready. You know? Yeah. Does anyone have a favorite song? I mean, Ryan, you mentioned yours and that's an interesting. I mean, that's one of Nirvana songs. I mean, in bloom blue. It's just so many. I think this is it.

[01:28:03] Like they were definitely one of the first where I'm like, I can put on the whole album and slowly have a new favorite each time I used to. You know that there's there's all at least three different radio hits on 24 seven. I kind of always. Was a big fan of dumb, but then. It's a good song. Then there was the other hit, which was.

[01:28:30] The man who sold the world, I thought was just like, wow. OK, that he's really waxing some philosophy there. But that's a Dave Bowie song. So that there you go. It's he somehow made it his own, even though it's a cover. He cheated and used an electric on stage on the on the acoustics. But yeah, I don't think in my life I've heard a lot of perfect albums.

[01:28:59] I would say Dirt from Alice in Chains is a perfect album. I'd say, you know, that probably some of the Beatles albums are probably perfect albums. OK Computer, probably. OK Computer. Yeah. Even the Benz, I think, is a perfect album. But I would say. Off the top of my head, the most perfect. Dirt is probably the second best perfect album I've ever heard.

[01:29:26] But I would say Nevermind is probably to me the absolute perfect album. I don't like I love in utero, but I might skip Tourette's. No, that's a good point. Tourette's gets a little repetitive and Teen Spirit is on the radio every day, 24 seven. But there's so many other singles in there. Yeah. Nevermind is, you know, Blue. I might skip Floyd the Barber, even though I love it. It's great.

[01:29:57] But Nevermind. I don't think I would ever skip a song on that album if I just put the CD in or I just streamed it as the kids do now. I don't think there's one song in that album. I go, you know, I like this song, but I don't love the songs. I want to hear the next. Like, no, there's nothing on that album I would ever skip at all. I think, you know, you asked me my favorite song by them. Yes. In Bloom. Blue from Bleed. Yes.

[01:30:27] Mr. Mustache might be one. Drain You might be one. You know, Heart Shade Box might be another one. Like there's Francis. It's like a mood thing too, right? Exactly. That's the thing. Exactly. Exactly. It depends on what kind of mood I'm in. I still play an iPod in my car because I'm old school. Hey, that's cool. I have one playlist in my iPod that's every Nirvana song. And it's broken up by album.

[01:30:56] And there might be a day where I just play all of them on random. And there might be a day where I just want to hear your stuff on Bleach. That's dedication, my dude. Yeah. I'm old school, you know? If I had still had a CD player, I'd still play CDs. I wish we had more CD players, dude. There's so many times where I just want to get an album out. I know. But I'm like, you know, there's one day where maybe I just want to hear everything on Bleach today. I mean, everything on Bleach. Or everything on Nevermind. Everything on, you know, Incesticide.

[01:31:23] Everything on Outcesticide 1, 2, and 3. Everything on Happy. We have all of the iPods. We have... I remember you spent so much fucking money on those. Between the three of us, Pete, Sean, and Jay, we have every, every import that they've... Like, if they say we released a new Nirvana song... It's like, I have it. I have it on the... The only one was You Know You're Right. Right, probably, is the only one that I didn't have for you. There's a song that says, like, three, I think, is You Got No Right, I think.

[01:31:53] And it's like a demo version of that. So we still have one. There's not a Nirvana song I haven't heard. You know? And it's... Jay's absolutely right. It's the mood. You know? It definitely made me know that you could demonstrate that with music. Because it used to be this kind of put on a fun, catchy, party song. And it's like, well, this can be a party song, or this can be a mood builder. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if you ask people who are writing a paper

[01:32:22] or studying, and if this was their playlist. It is kind of an unusual setting. Kind of... You were saying, like, a mood song. Like, you know, a... Mood swing, yeah. Mood song, whatever. Like, this is going to sound so fucking weird, and maybe Jay will agree with me, or know what I'm talking about. Something in the Way is a song that can make me motivated to do something.

[01:32:52] It's one of the most depressing songs ever written, but I can listen to that song, and if I was a football player, and I had to go on the field, I'd put on something in the way. Because it just... It is a good workout song. I don't know what it is about. It's just something... It's... The guitar is at a tune. Time is precious. He recorded it playing on a couch. Yeah. On a couch. And they untuned the bass and the cello. This is true. It's on classic albums.

[01:33:20] And they match the out-of-tune bass and cello to the guitar. And it's so just... It's just so mellow. And you just... Like, you listen. You get to the chorus. And you go, fuck yeah. Like, dude, I just... I don't know. Like, I run on the field, and I tackle somebody. Yeah. It is kind of rowdy. But it's like a slow buildup. Like, you're doing all kinds of things. If I listen to this,

[01:33:49] I'm going to want to cook a kick-ass meal. You know what's awesome in that song? There's just, like, one time that he gets high. Like, when he says something in the way. Like, he hits, like, a high note. And then it's, like, fades out. It's so weird. And I'm like, that's so cool. Why didn't you do that again? But it's just... I don't know. It's somewhere. I think those albums are interesting because there are, like, moods. The three of them. Even Incesticide is its own thing. It's like...

[01:34:16] I mean, they're kind of different from front to back. Like, I always think of... I don't know. You know, the end... The last, like, five songs are just like... What the hell is going on? There's so many different musicians playing on Incesticide. You know a person has pretty much left their legacy if you have all these questions you want to ask them. Like... Yeah. And in a good way. Like, you're actually just like... I'm just curious about you just because you have a cool perspective on this. Yeah, like, what were you thinking

[01:34:46] when you recorded this song? Like, what does this line mean? What makes you you, man? Lounge Act. Do you really think that's another song? That's another song. That's another one. It wasn't meant to be played in a lounge. I fucking love Lounge Act. I listen to that. Is it a metaphor for something else? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it said that it sounded like a song you play in a lounge. And it's like, it's so mellow and upbeat. And then it just gets heavy. Same song. And it's like, what happened?

[01:35:15] This is the same song. But now it's got a totally different vibe. I feel like he just was a whirlwind of different... If it wasn't mood, then it was definitely tones. Like, literally. Yeah. It's just... And it was emotion. And his voice. Yeah. When he yelled, it wasn't like bands that just yell the yell. I don't feel like he's funning around. If he was, he made it seem seamless. Yeah. His voice...

[01:35:44] He's very raw, though. Like, the music is very raw. And the tone is very raw. Like, his... Yes. That scream is very... Very raw. That scream is very different than anybody else's scream. You know what I mean? It's just like... But... It doesn't even drain you. In the middle of drain you. Yeah. It's just... You can feel the emotion behind that. Yep. Yeah. I mean... And the lyrics are so stupid. Like, chew meat for you. Pass it back and forth. In a patch of a kiss.

[01:36:14] From my mouth to yours. Like... You're chewing somebody's meat. And you're... Yeah, it's a little weird. You're just listening to it and you're like, yeah, this fucking song fucking rocks. I thought it was kind of cool, though. They went from Nevermind, like, such a... It's, you know, it's very polished to, like... Yes. They did, like, the alternate route. Like, they went to... In Utero is just, like, abrasive. That's an abrasive album. Very... It's more than ambitious. So, yeah.

[01:36:43] The first note of Serve the Servant, it's like this dissonant chord. Yeah. Where it's like... Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, wow, that's how you're starting the album. With this dissonant chord that's gonna, like, hurt your eardrum. It's like the right kind of tease, kind of. Yeah, for that whole album. It does, like, kind of set the tone for it. That whole... You thought we were doing this? Wait a second. Oh. We're still warming up. Oh, oh. There's a great...

[01:37:10] There's a great interview with Steve Albany, Dave Grohl, and Chris Noe Selleck. It's Conan O'Brien's podcast. And they talk about the recording of In Utero. And Conan brings up the fact, and I never noticed this before, that Kurt hated one-word titles. So that's why Francis Varmor will have a revenge on Seattle, Serve the Servants, Heart Shaped Box, and Gallons of Rubbing Alcohol. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:37:39] So, like, he... For In Utero, he purposely made a lot of the song titles weird. That's good. And, like, longer and not just, like, breathe in bloom. You know, smells like teen spirit or whatever. You know, he made them, like, a little bit more... Like, what does that mean? I'm gonna have to sit and think on that. Yeah. I saw an interesting thing with him where he said, um...

[01:38:07] All Apologies is his song... He said it was, like, his song that makes him think of, uh... Francis and Courtney. He's like, it's not the lyrics. It's, like, the mood of that song. Like, the lyrics don't have anything to do about them. But, like, the feeling I get from it. So, I mean, it kind of shows, like, the lyrics aren't... That's just kind of a thing, though. Like, we've all done that. Like, someone's been like, what do you mean? Why does this make you think of that? I don't know. It just does.

[01:38:35] So, I think he popularized the whole loose connecting. Everything is a puzzle to us. We make our own puzzle. We crafted all together. When I was, uh... We haven't made sense. Take this to me, because I haven't been talking about me enough. You do you, bro. When I was, uh, 15, I wrote a song because a girl broke up with me. And I literally sat in my room in the dark and I wrote the whole song.

[01:39:04] Didn't write the lyrics, just wrote the music. And I still love the song. Like, I want to record it. Like, I love the song. There's still time. Every time I think about it, I do have a couple, like, live versions. I've, you know, bands I've been in and played it. And every time... I haven't talked to this girl in 30 years. Every time I hear the song, I think about that moment where I sat down and I wrote the whole song start to finish. And I go, man. Like, I, you know, you reconnect with a moment. Yeah.

[01:39:35] That's a weird thing, though, about being like... It's weird being older sometimes. Because, like, some things, like, I'll go back and connect with it. And then some things, it's like, I connect with it. And I'm like, oh, God. I don't want to revisit this part of the chapter. That's embarrassing. Yeah, I think that's the one fascinating thing about music in general. It's that every song you listen to, for the most part, especially when you're younger, can connect you to a moment in your life.

[01:40:05] Yes. You know, like, I listen to Smells Like a Teen Spirit. I remember, you know, writing, you know, Sean writing Nirvana on my book and me, my life changing, because I knew I could be a musician and, you know, listening to, you know, Four Horsemen from Metallica and being like, oh, man, I wish I could play that song. And I got to play it once. And I was like, oh, this is amazing. Like, every other's... You know, when I was moving from one town to another, my mom was driving me to where they were building the house.

[01:40:33] And we constantly listened to the Fleetwood Mac reunion tour from 97, the live album. So every time I hear one of those songs, it reminds me of driving to... Mawa to, you know, look at the house being built. And it's like, so every time I hear that song, that's all I think. So like music... Movies are one thing. Like, you know, you watch a movie, it's like you connect with it in different ways. You're older. Yeah. Characters. But music, it's like, it always brings you back to that first point when you heard it. Yes.

[01:41:04] That's fascinating to me. You know, I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you totally on that. You know what? It's funny because you made me think of it before, and I don't know what you said. But it was something... Like, I watched Good Will Hunting like a couple years ago. And I remember really liking it as a kid, but I was like 18 or whatever when it came out. 19 maybe, I don't know. And my view of the movie was always through, you know, Matt Damon's character. Right.

[01:41:32] And then as like, I'm older, it came back on and I'm like, I'm like viewing it from Robin Williams' point of view. And I'm like, this is a fucking existential time bomb. Fucking done with it. Like, I can't take it. I do like movies where you can follow different characters' journey. There's nothing worse than, no, they didn't know. They just, you know, weaned it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They needed another character, but the character became bigger than the movie or... Yeah.

[01:42:02] ...bigger than intended by actor or talent. Right. Behind the scenes is... It's funny having to just kind of revalidate everything. Yeah. It's like, I don't think Cobain... Again, if Cobain, you know, he was authentic, but he, you know, no one could have explained their success.

[01:42:25] They can only explain to you why they do what they do, where they do it, why they do it. Yeah, there's no reason why they should have gotten popular. Literally, Michael Jackson was number one. All the hair bands were still around. There were plenty of people way noisier than them, you know? Yeah, and if you think about it, within seven months, I just read this recently, seven months span,

[01:42:52] Bad Motor Finger, 10, Nevermind, Usual Illusion 1 and 2, Black, and Blood Sugar Sex Magic. Yeah. Came in a seven months span. And the biggest band of all of them was Nevermind. The biggest album was Nevermind. And I'm not a huge Chili Pepper fan, but that was a great album. That's a great album. Oh, yeah. And the two Usual Illusions were phenomenally big. And Black Album and 10 and Bad Motor Finger, they all came out within seven months of each other. And Nirvana... Unheard of.

[01:43:22] People are like still going, oh, that was the best album of the year. Did you see what else came out that year? Like, really? And it was like, I'm just going to put a fork in it. It's kind of weird, though. Like, they started to get a lot of play because nobody could understand the lyrics of Teen Spirit. Well, that's why Weird Al said... That's what, you know... Well, that's, yeah, the song is about... But it was funny. I remember that they used to interview people on...

[01:43:47] Because that was like on 120 Minutes a lot back then, which was an MTV show for like alternative music before, I guess it was like popular. It was like that term. The midnight show from Monday to Friday, then Friday... Or Monday to Thursday, then Friday was... Headbangers Ball. Oh, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. Our turn into the nation. Saturday was Headbangers Ball. Man, that shit was so good. I used to be like... And you had to be like... You felt like you were a badass because you had to stay up late to watch all that stuff.

[01:44:17] And you're like, yeah. It even goes back to the music shows themselves. Like, they're the first to do it, but they don't know why they stuck out other than that. For popularizing it. We did a special that's coming out soon that talked about all the documentary shows, behind the music, you know, True Hollywood Story, biography. I used to... Dude, it didn't matter who was on. If I hated them, if I loved them, I had to watch them. That's a good show. Now we can't say that about other docs.

[01:44:45] There's so many that feel unfinished or clickbaity. No, I know. It's like there's something about those. I used to like... Or by the numbers of the True Hollywood Story. It was like, he just went out to their IMDb and told me a story I already know. Come on, man. Yeah. Tell me something. No, I know. Those are so good. Yeah, I feel like they don't have any of those. I guess because YouTube just sucks it all up. But Vice has a dark side of... Oh, that's true. So, yeah. Vice is the closest you get. And they keep changing platforms.

[01:45:14] They were on HBO recently. I know. No time picked them up. So, I... But, yeah. I mean, I do think you guys are right. I think the internet is kind of playing into that. People want something that's less of a corporate piece. But then you see other indie guys who have figured out marketing but have empty substance. So, it's a rabbit hole. You really got to search for a while.

[01:45:39] I'll maybe even use different keywords if you want something that's not just, you know. I'm going to have a shocking photo of me dissing something. And you're going to click on it so you can type on it. Fuck you. And it's like, ah, it's bad business. But it works. I'm going to... When I fall down that YouTube rabbit hole, which I'm sure I'm going to do as soon as we're done with this. And I'll send Jay a bunch of clips. Clickety-clickety-clickety-click. Like, I'll watch music videos from the 90s and 80s.

[01:46:09] And, you know, one of my favorite... My favorite song of all time is Black from Pearl Jam. But the Pink Pop Festival in 92 is, like, my favorite version of that song. So, I'll watch that a thousand times. Because that's just... To me, it's start to finish the greatest song ever written. You know, fuck the Beatles and that aspect of song. Like, they are amazing. The Stones and all that. But listen to Black from Pearl Jam.

[01:46:38] Who's not even my favorite band. Not even in the top ten. But that song. Yeah. The song just is bigger than anyone anticipated. I mean... Anyone who's from... I'm starting to catch off camp again. You're fine. Anybody from our generation. You know, Gen X. You say to Black from Pearl Jam. They go, yeah. That line. And everybody goes, oh, yeah. That line. You know, that last line. You know, I know someday you have a beautiful life. That's that line. Oh, yeah. That's like...

[01:47:07] That's just, like, the most beautiful line ever written. Yeah. Right in the fucking... I feel it. All the time. Anytime. When you can memorize certain lyrics, that's even bigger than the song. That's... Have you heard that song, Cam, at all? Yes. I have done my share of Pearl Jam, and I... So you know that line. I can't just throw that song on, though. It's gotta be, like... It's gotta be the right moment. Yeah. I can't. A girl broke up with me once, and I was... You know, because it happens a lot. Wonder why.

[01:47:36] And, like, I put that song on, and, like, that... You know, get to that line, and it's like, hmm, right in the fucking heart. But I feel better about it, because... Yeah. He better say it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. This is the best kinds of songs to perplex about. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. Why do I steer? Cam had no idea what he was getting into when he was like, oh, let's talk to Jay and write up on your own. Oh, that's why I like this.

[01:48:05] Yeah, another three hours, or... I like how everyone has to kind of... You know, this isn't a measuring contest. This is all about, like, be on a lose level and be on... It's like, yeah, I never thought of that, but that makes total sense. No, but that's why it's cool, though. Like, I do like getting the perspective of somebody who's just, like, born right after it, too. Like, and then I like it, like... What do 20-year-olds say? And I see it a lot of times on the posts.

[01:48:33] Like, yeah, there's people who, like, shit talk them. If you didn't have parents or uncles who did this, then... I mean... It kind of even makes you wonder, is like, what are places where people go to study or hang out with comic book or RPG nerds? It seems like all kinds of stuff is now that you used to have to do a 20-minute drive or get on your bike and go to a private location. Now, yeah, it's like everything's more kind of remote now.

[01:49:04] Yeah. Plus clubs for people to collect rock and roll t-shirts and discuss which album they just bought that they recommend to others. Yeah. I do miss going through, like, Sam Goody. I mean, I could spend hours there. Yeah. Especially once you could scan the barcode and listen to, like, parts of the album. Yes. Like, I'm just here forever. I'm never leaving. Now, malls are oversaturated. People just want to get in and out. I miss kind of the joy of, I don't care if we buy anything. I just want to do something for hours. Just hang out there. Yeah.

[01:49:34] Now it's like service, all of it. Mm-hmm. It's weird. There's, like, food stores, like, grocery stores. People are weird out. Doctors. If you've been here for a while and haven't bought anything, I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm waiting on someone. I was a mall rat when I was younger, you know. Yep. It's not cliche, but, like, Garnt State Plaza and Paramus, like, I found out who Marilyn Manson was because a kid I hung out with had a Marilyn Manson shirt. And I literally once walked down the same goodie found Portrait of an American Family for five bucks or whatever. And I bought the CD.

[01:50:04] And I fucking played it. Well, who do you think you, a t-shirt would even be of? Like, if it wasn't of, like, a powerful figure, like, I could see someone probably having a JFK or MLK shirt. There definitely were sexy celebrities, collages. There were definitely, for lack of a better word, movie characters. Yeah. Definitely stand-up comedians.

[01:50:31] You definitely would see someone with an Eddie Murphy or George Carlin shirt with a famous tagline they used. But, I mean, rock music is, like, there's so much free advertising in the t-shirt alone. Yeah. And that's where I learned about a lot of bands when I was younger. Sure. They're a thing. I haven't heard them, but I've heard their, at least one of their singles. Yeah. Or I'm going to check them out. Like, I told Jay this story recently, I think. We used to go to Wildwood in South Jersey. And we went to this place called Cookie's Fun Shop.

[01:51:02] It was a t-shirt place. And I bought a Clockwork Orange shirt. I was 12 years old. I never saw Clockwork Orange. Didn't know what it was. I just liked the shirt. It was the silhouette of all four of them. And then the next day, when we got home, I went out and rented Clockwork Orange. 13 years old. They let me rent Clockwork Orange. My parents were like, yeah, it's fine. Whatever. And I watched Clockwork Orange and I went, holy shit. But I wore the shirt to school and people were like, what's Clockwork Orange?

[01:51:30] And I'm like, oh, you don't want to know. Wait till you find out. Yeah. You find out what this is. It's the sacred fruit. Yeah. I still love it. I still got the poster back there. It's still one of my favorite movies. You know, like. Nice. Yeah. That's a that was a I remember the first time I saw that, too. I mean, I was thinking I was like 15. I don't think I saw it the same time as you, but I was still like. What is going on?

[01:52:00] What the. Now, I kind of miss just the comfort of everyone's own home, where it's like, OK, yeah, I'm going to watch something, you know, I don't have to be judged. And I don't know what it is now is like, do you feel like people do this with music where they just want to put it on to make noise instead of enjoy it? Somewhat. But I think that's a.

[01:52:26] I don't really blame the younger generation for doing it, because it's become weird for me, like not to have noise in the background. It's just like I think we're going on. We're trained now to be. I mean, my house, Jay, your house as well. Like, we always had music playing. There was always music playing in my house with a record player. Yes. Thousand records, you know, or we had the radio playing or, you know, my grandmother

[01:52:52] used to cook and she put on CBS FM, you know, the big the big difference now is that. See, like you talked about it with like your mother, right? Like or even when I drove with your mother, like Clapton was always playing. We all had like a shared experience. So, like, I remember going to Brooklyn with my parents every Sunday. And man, I could sing like any 60s, 50s or 70s song because they just listen to like the golden oldies and all that stuff.

[01:53:20] But it's like a shared experience. And now everybody has a device. Well, because everybody could be more selective now. And before it was like, what's on the radio is what you like. You're playing the song because you like this song, whether you like it or not. Now you can make a playlist. Well, I mean, you're also surrendering to an algorithm like it's not totally your choice. Yes. No, but I'm saying people like go to Spotify and they make a Spotify playlist.

[01:53:50] Yeah. Or for me, like I make a YouTube playlist or iPod playlist. I'm choosing songs that I like to put on that playlist in a certain order instead of listening to the radio. It was like you put the radio on and it's like, I never heard this song. I kind of like the song. And then you hear it 10, 12 times in a two hour car drive. And you're like, OK, now I really love this song. Yes. You can listen.

[01:54:16] A repetition is earned because you have more time to consume and. But at the same time, like there was something to be said, like I could just listen to anything I want, like anything in my head. I just go. I don't even remember the name of that. I just remember he says Boogaloo Boogaloo and I'll put it. You know what I mean? And I find it. But there was something to be said back then.

[01:54:43] I mean, like Ryan will remember this, like sitting by the radio and it's like after the commercial break, you know, it smells like teen spirits going to come on. You're like, oh, fuck. I'm looking forward to it. The bumpers were better. Yeah. Like they were their own character. Yeah. It's like this is. You sound like Jay. We sound like the people older than us that were like, we had three channels. I know. I know. We always run that risk. I try that. I try so hard now too.

[01:55:12] To be fair, you at least remember when it had its own identity. Now it's like you see so many program execs and interviews. They're like, we don't even know what our channel is really playing. You know, it's just, it's just on. I mean, that's kind of the curse and the blessing of us being as the, in the generation we grew up in is that we saw it from five channels to radio stations to internet to streaming to DVD. So we got, you know.

[01:55:42] I use a great site called Taste Dive, which I find is very helpful for just finding stuff that's similar to other movies or music. Music and I will see so many people, they, it's like, they just want to get attached to just going out of their way to complain. It's like, well, I don't know about you, but I don't spend an hour looking for something to watch. I know what I want to seek out and I make time for it. I don't. Yeah. Music, same deal. You can get all the playlists set up and just start jamming.

[01:56:10] Get it hooked up to your speakers. It doesn't have to be work. Yeah. I mean, my one playlist on my iPod is like 7,000 songs. That's pretty good. And that's not, that's not even all the songs, but I put it on random and I go skip, skip, skip. Oh, I'm in the mood to hear this. Okay. Let me listen to this. But if I was, you know, 15 years old, it was like, put a CD in. I want to hear this song. Before you could burn CDs.

[01:56:39] It was like, you know, I put it in Justice for All and it's like, because I wanted to hear one. Yeah. Just one. Just one. Yeah. But then I really want to hear Aner Sam, so I got to take this disc out and put this disc in. Especially when you're driving. I used to burn a lot of those. Yeah. Don't be driving. I still have my CD book with like 700 CDs in it. Yeah. The CD books are great. I'm driving on my steering wheel just flipping through. It's a beautiful on the floor.

[01:57:07] Everyone acts like it's foreign, but you do that with your book pile. You do it. Yeah. I had friends who would do it with their GameCube, you know? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Instead of bring the cover art, which is awesome, but just bring the game and the memory card if no one has one. Do that with the music equivalent. And Cobain has definitely echoed a lot of that. Good stuff. Nice time. I like it.

[01:57:29] Follow us on the web on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. The podcast is available on Podbean, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Anchor, Apple, and anywhere else podcasts are available. Feel free to review our show and leave comments on any of those sites. Thanks a million for listening. It's a Jacked Up Review Show.