The Shining and Doctor Sleep Retrospect

[00:00:00] This podcast is a production of Unfiltered Studios. If you would like to know more about joining Unfiltered Studios, please visit our website at unfpod.com for more information. All right, welcome all. So again, we have so many discussions from the past revolving around the adaptations of Stephen King's The Shining.

[00:00:23] And then join us for a new portion to conclude The Madness with Orphan himself, Lucas Dickinson. Just talking about the pros and cons of the almost perfect Doctor Sleep sequel. So again, there's something for everybody. I think there was some really good points on all honesty. Just people who can stand this, people who can't stand this, but ultimately it's a place in pop culture.

[00:00:51] And what it ultimately signifies for all who have seen it and what it ultimately means to them. And it is so wild how it just, everything, it blurs that line between psycho thriller, psychological drama. And it's again, beloved by slasher fans. So it's something for everybody. And I think we got to the nitty and the gritty. So enjoy the rest of this Jack Nicholson themed month.

[00:01:19] Jenny, I'll let you better introduce yourself and take it away from there. So here's an important question. Why is a film from 1980 relevant to 2025? Specifically the social media landscape? And it's because the film explores rage, power, and isolation. We deal with that today.

[00:01:42] And we desperately need more understanding on how media shapes our perception of power, identity, and violence. Because yes, it's a film. But film reflects real life, which will in turn reflect film. Before we get too deep into that, I'd love to introduce myself. I am Jenny Ambrose, founder of Pure Fantastico.

[00:02:05] I am an anthropologist turned graphic designer with 15 years of experience in design, messaging, strategy, and consulting. I've served a ton of organizations, but I've been working on a software as service using the shining as my use case. So lo, this presentation was born. First, we've got to define rage and erasure in media.

[00:02:33] Because if we can't name it, we can't talk about it. We missed. We loaded it. We edited it. Sometimes we get so deep into conversation that we have separate segments worthy of their own place in the sun.

[00:03:02] Here is a reshuffled mini-episode. We mentioned the Dark Tower earlier, and Stephen King incorrectly does not like the original Shining. Yeah. The remake. Stephen King doesn't like it. He's a genius about 99.9% of stuff. He's wrong about that.

[00:03:32] And he can't back down. He made Maximum Overdrive, so that's the only thing I got against him. No, I love him for everything. I love his books. I love his stuff. And I think he just was like, didn't like Kubrick's vision. Kubrick and him are both auteurs, and now he can't back off of it. Stephen King is interesting, though, in that people who don't even like sci-fi or mystery or horror will watch his books because they know he's a very smart man. And he's kind of one of those, he's too close to everything he does. So it's like, take with a grain of salt.

[00:04:02] Yeah. Welcome to the show, Ambrose, who is a designer anthropologist. Designer anthropologist. Founder of Puree Fantastic. Okay, perfect. All the filmmakers we decided to tackle is like ones that apply the most to this role for his psychological profiles. Yep. And Stanley Kubrick. The man who missed the legend. What was your introduction to him?

[00:04:26] I actually saw A Clockwork Orange way too young in the worst time of my life. Oh, dear. And it was like, oh, I hate him. Oh, oh, God, I hate him. I hate what he's doing. You know, like a 14-year-old girl is not going to understand what that is about. So that was my first introduction.

[00:04:53] But what got me to really connect with him and why we're on this podcast together was 2001 Space Odyssey. Very good point. That was the first one I ever saw. It was basically the only one I could watch. That was rated anywhere near PG. Yeah. Well, I saw it with a friend being like, oh, I think I've seen posters of this movie in Spencer's. I could watch.

[00:05:20] But 2001 Space Odyssey, I saw it 24, which is like way more age appropriate. And it. I think I was 13, maybe 14. But I see what you mean. It's definitely one of those, a completest of anything that was a visual effects epic. Because I just would always read about it in the film history books. It's like, okay, here I'm talking about this. I remember seeing it with my grandparents. They didn't know what it was or what it meant. And they just shrugged their shoulders saying, interesting.

[00:05:49] And I went home, told my father, you know, I was like, oh, what movie did you see with the grandparents? Oh, you saw that? Yeah. At the very end, it's very mind-blowing. Because it shows how the man's entire life has evolved right in front of him. It's so wild how he explained what happened in three hours. I didn't know what was going on. But yeah, no, that's a good point.

[00:06:11] Is like you want, you look at all the best of movie lists and you seriously have to do some serious research on them to brace yourself, make time for them. Because if you don't, then you, like you say, you only lead yourself to disappointment. And let's say even if you don't care for it, you're going to be way more disappointed not knowing what the hell to expect versus... Well, I feel like you wasted your time. You need time.

[00:06:37] And then you feel like an outsider is like, I'm going to say something that's going to piss a bunch of people off because I don't get it. And I'm more angry because I feel like I'm missing something. But really, I feel like everyone else is brainwashed when really it could be just the other way around. I'm an idiot and I don't get it.

[00:06:57] And so, like you say, I think Kubrick, he excels at the unpredictable and at the same time, he's dangerous. You don't know what you're going to get, regardless of what movie you're getting into. Like Pass the Glory, I saw with a bunch of college students, you know, in one of those film meetings that was assigned. I didn't know what I was getting myself into, even with a speaker telling us about the movie beforehand.

[00:07:27] I was away by it. And like you say, fuck, there's another example. The last time I saw 2001, second viewing, and it was so funny. It was a film studies class. And, you know, we're all, you know, exhausted at the end of the day. It's free hour class. And it's just so funny. Half the class really fucking hated the movie. We can curse on this program, by the way.

[00:07:53] And the second portion really enjoyed it, really dug it. And there was maybe three or five people who were like, oh, I should have been high when I'm watching this. So it was so, that stuck with me. Because the film studies class in general was pretty lame. The professor wasn't very good at actually doing their job. And she and the other guy, he's just basically always just argued about what was considered a classic and what wasn't.

[00:08:21] As opposed to actually, you know, kind of doing what Turner Classic Movies does and give us some insight into the whole thing. And then maybe kind of make it film history and open up a discussion. And so it was bad because everyone else was lazy. I was like one of free people who asked questions. And I'm like, I'm seriously sick of asking questions. Yeah. Anyway. But you're like, am I just, let's just have a conversation, me and you. And these other films fade away in the background. Exactly.

[00:08:51] And so, yeah, with that one, it was interesting because everybody had a mixed bag on it. And other people were like, I like the last 20 minutes. Or, you know, I like the whole 9000 segment. I don't like the other stuff. You know what I'm saying? That's the thing with Kubrick's films, 2001 specifically, it's difficult when you begin to feel like, oh, I can take pieces out and still maintain what this movie is. And I think that's the trap.

[00:09:18] That is emphatically the trap of watching Kubrick films. It's definitely a trap. Think about like Full Metal Jacket, right? I was going to go there as well as Eyes Wide Shut. Like those, like you say, both movies are basically, you know, people, like you say, get into arguments. I like the first half or like the second half. But there are two halves of the same thing. You can't take one without the other.

[00:09:43] What I love when watching, I mean, film just in general, but I can trust that with a Kubrick film, there is an intention. And so even if like I don't understand it or I can't connect to the why, that doesn't mean I have the arrogance to be like that doesn't belong there. And that's with a Kubrick film.

[00:10:11] I mean, that doesn't mean a Lynch film, but that is so much with a Kubrick film. Even if you don't get it or especially if you don't get it, there's still something in there that's being delivered to you that adds to the experience, that changes the experience or completely informs the experience of what you're watching. There's that and very well said, by the way.

[00:10:34] More or less, you can always just, you welcome the unpredictable. And every moment you can tell has been a mind game from his very get go. He's almost a borderline sociopath. He knows how to actually kind of entrap you and hold you hostage. The Shining, nowadays, everyone likes to just get into a bitch slap on book versus the movie. To hell with that.

[00:11:04] It's a brilliant, brilliant movie. It's. Well, I think that's every. OK, so the thing about it is every single piece, every single film that he's done has started from a source novel. Even 2001, it's like the companion movie to Arthur C. Clarke's book. But Kubrick wrote his own piece for that film. A Clockwork Orange is based on Anthony Burgess's novel. And no one's like, oh, the novel and the book.

[00:11:33] When we're talking about The Shining, it's such a different story. But reading The Shining, as a designer, I can so clearly pull out the inference, pull out the inspiration, pull out the core idea. Oh, yeah. It doesn't exist without the book. That is for sure. It's just these people are just going to one dimension.

[00:11:57] You can read the book and inside the book say, oh, I can see where Kubrick expanded on this idea and came up with this experience. It's like reading a client brief and seeing the finished project of a logo or a website and be like, oh, they wanted to communicate ABC. The design firm chose that in this way. Right.

[00:12:22] As a designer, that's the key to understanding Kubrick's book, especially if you're going to be like, oh, the book is different. Well, yeah, duh. He's an artist and he translated that information in this way to communicate what he saw. Well, my favorite thing of everybody, you know, just all the film guys just seem to just, you know, they can never tell you what they would have done differently. The non-constructive ones can at least.

[00:12:51] I mean, I'm sure there are some out there, but it just gets very exhausting when it just continues, just continually just incessant. And it's like, okay, well, do you hate it or like it anymore because you know about the book versus not knowing about the book? Yeah. Well, and it's a different story. It can never be the exact same thing because the author isn't making the film.

[00:13:17] The author isn't working on every aspect of the film. Different people are working on it and different people have their viewpoints about it. Correct. And then you reading the book, you have your own viewpoint about what you are reading. So nobody, ain't nobody going to be able to translate it exactly how you, an individual, experience it. Because the author is not experiencing it that way. And the author made the damn thing. The author made the thing maybe.

[00:13:47] And even then, you know, they can't necessarily do it any better or worse. So it's just like you have all these other predicaments and it's like everybody should just be happy that any of us, you know, care about, you know, wanting to see this. The fact that it's a coherent piece in and of itself. I mean, if I can understand what's going on without having to look at any other source material, then you're golden in my book.

[00:14:14] But I know other people who are like, oh, I want to do this and that. And then does anyone want to be happy? Well, I think a lot of it is people don't understand the level of dedication and effort it takes. The dedication. And I mean, this guy is, you know, sweating this, you know. For years, I was reading that it took The Shining five years to be filmed.

[00:14:42] So when you are at that level, it's like, do you know what it takes to do the same project for five years? Do you? Right. And most people wouldn't. Most people, I mean, look, we're at the end of January. Most people do their, you know, their New Year's resolutions. And by the third week in, they're like, it's too cold. It's too dark. I'll be back. Whatever.

[00:15:07] Like, the level of dedication needed to do a work of art, let alone a Kubrickian work of art, is not where we're at. Right. How could we, you know? Well, yeah. I mean, I've been working on a research project about The Shining for 13 years.

[00:15:27] When you're watching, like, and I don't want to insult another director, but let's say M. Night Shyamalan or someone who wants to have the level of thought and, you know, execution that Kubrick has, but just doesn't. Right. It's easy to say, this is what happened in La Plot. This person talks to this other person. Here's what they say. Right. I watched Twilight Zone nonstop. This is what I meant. This is what I did a twist on. Now, here's the truth.

[00:15:57] There is, you talked about Twilight Zone. That's my favorite show in the entire universe of existence. And there are baby symbols. Like a Kubrick film. But not to the level that people spend their whole doctoral thesis writing about it. Right.

[00:16:15] When it comes to Kubrick films, there is a level of intention that straddles the dialogue, the people as archetypal people and not like, oh, this is my, like, not real people. Very true. They become symbol, you know, symbol people. And that's how you have to sit.

[00:16:36] You have to sit on top of the Kubrick film and then see the ingredients he's presenting them to, see the order in which you are receiving it, and then say this is how he's using it. There is a reason. Like, in The Shining, you don't see Wendy and Jack happy in their marriage. Never. Never. You never hear, oh, hi, babe. How's it going, babe? You don't hear that.

[00:17:04] What you hear is, here's dinner, hon. Or here's breakfast. How about you take me for a walk? And he's like, can't, gotta work. That's the nicest they ever are. Right. And then you just see them, the relationship degrade, degrade, degrade. You're never given the, this at one time was a happy marriage.

[00:17:26] Now, if you compare it to, and I would say an equatable horror film, the 1979 Amityville horror. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A perfect counterpart. Yep. Because I've been doing this project for 13 years, sir. The haunting, all those kinds of movies.

[00:17:49] But what you're given is specifically in Amityville horror, because it's like the haunted house, the guy before killed his family because of the haunting. He's not able to sleep. He's not able to work. And he turns on his family. That is the bare bones similarities between The Shining and Amityville horror. The difference is, there's two differences. One, they have a happy marriage.

[00:18:15] So when the guy starts being a shitty person, the wife is like, hey dude, you're being shitty. In The Shining, she's never like, you don't call me that. You don't say, are you fucking crazy? This is not you. That is him. And in the end of the Amityville horror, he is- It's the only version of him he knows. Yep. And that's the thing that people don't pay attention to.

[00:18:41] That subtle thing, or like how Danny is never smiling or happy. He's a very sullen five-year-old. Very sullen five-year-old. And even with how every house, since the book and the movie had to feature a Native American spiritual ground, you already know, even before they admit that part, the way he's acting. He's happy, but he doesn't seem naturally happy. It's like, okay, I don't know.

[00:19:11] They haven't even told him he's sold the house to him yet. He's just acting very weird. You know, like he's off his rock. The awareness there. The awareness there comes into play when Wendy and Jack fight. And for me, The Shining is so clearly a story. It works on a micro-macro level. The micro level is domestic violence. That's a very good point.

[00:19:38] And I don't think I've ever, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think I've ever seen anyone really go into it. Because the macro level is American culture as the patriarchal domestic violence masculine energy against the Americans, African Americans, women and children. Right. And who are the victims? An African American friend. The children, the wife.

[00:20:06] And like you say, everyone is so focused on just him losing it and which part of the place is real or in his head. And it's just like, they... And as we sit in 2021, after angry white people stormed the Capitol... I know! It's very challenging. But they did it because they lost. They had the temper tantrum because they lost. So much of the information within The Shining is Jack's mediocrity.

[00:20:36] His inability to face that. His unwillingness to say being a father and a husband is actually okay work. There is this entire shift between what he is paid to do and what he actually spends his time doing and how that's Wendy's fault. So true. We don't talk about it. And it's like, okay, so we're just going to ignore the giant red...

[00:21:05] In a way, he's basically an anti-Me Too guy. He is every Me Too person's... Yeah. He is every lifetime husband's, you know, the worst nightmare in any of these. It's like, he is the guy who, again, in his mind, it's not just that he bought a house. It's that he's lived an accomplished life. We never even see him a single day at work.

[00:21:33] But we can assume that, you know, he's saved up. He didn't buy that house. Is this what you think? I think he got a job as a janitor over the winter. Or did he? That's the thing. A caretaker is a euphemistic nicer phrase for a janitor. Yeah. I mean, in his mind, he's basically the owner, if you think. Yeah. No, in his mind, he's very important. He's very important. He's always been there.

[00:22:02] His drinks are paid for free. Grady is the man who succeeded in what he cannot do. Tells Jack how important he is. Everything is an ego. Everything is an ego. And it's impossible to take it all in one scoop. That is the beauty of many of these movies. That is true. And so anyone who said, I got it all now, bullshit. You read the cliff notes. I have been working on this project, obviously not every day in 2020. For most of you.

[00:22:31] From 2008 to 2019. And I still get stuff. Nice. I still get stuff where I'm like, oh, that is the same. And now it's like very, very nuanced, subtle art study. Right? Like the way that Kupfer creates his compositions is similar to Renaissance paintings. Yeah. Yeah. It's for real. There's a level of.

[00:22:59] And there's plenty of portraits in that movie. So. Well, I just mean like the way he plans his composition. So there will be the same color across the whole composition that forms a triangle. Yeah. Now, as a creator, there are things you do intentionally. There are things you do subconsciously because it feels good to you. Right. And they happen.

[00:23:25] So that's part of the project where it's like, yes, it's not him being this maniacal genius. He has a plan. This is his message making system. And it happens across the visuals. It happens across the structure. It happens across the dialogue. It just, it happens. And it repeats in series of threes. The closest you might get is maybe say a Giallo type movie. Yeah. For particular Dario Argento.

[00:23:51] But see, the other problem is with those in making this comparison as a contrast, half the time that shit isn't even meant to be figured out. Well, with this, you are supposed to peel it like an orange layer by layer, like an onion even. I don't think, I mean, I feel like with David Lynch. Oh, Lynch is a good counterpart. You can never figure him out. But he says you can. And so I would say. Really? Okay. His films make complete sense. And I'm like, to you, you surrealist mastermind.

[00:24:21] To you? Yeah. I like Lost Highway, but I can't, I haven't figured it out yet. So, I mean. Well, here's the thing. With David Lynch, his message making comes from inside. He has a very, he loves transcendental meditation. He really does love surrealism. And so with those two things, they are an internal message making system that do make sense if you can ground it. And like Rosetta Stone translation. Right? Like, that's how I live.

[00:24:51] With Cooper. He's an external person. The research and the documents and the card catalogs of movies he never even made. All of that can absolutely be tracked and matched. So, my theory about it is, this is a man who thinks through photography and communicates visually, but is obsessed with chess.

[00:25:19] And therefore can plan and think strategically. Right. And don't get me wrong. Regardless of whether you like or hate his movies, you never once think that he's just making this up off the top of his head. Because you think that people don't watch 2001. Or I think people watch A Clockwork Orange and feel betrayed. Oh, I'm sure they do.

[00:25:44] I mean, there's going to be people who, because they react to everything with either their fists or just their internal anger, that there's going to be people who have already closed them out before they've even gotten to the first hour. Or that they cannot imagine someone having this level of depth in their communication. Right. How dare you outsmart me? I hate you. I hate you. Yeah. And not even that aware of it.

[00:26:14] Just, I don't understand it. Therefore, I reject it. I don't understand it. Therefore, I am jealous. See, with Dog 195 style stuff, I just think it's a gimmick that you either buy into. There's been some good ones, and there's been some ones like Lars von Trier. I cannot. I do not like Lars von Trier whatsoever. Okay. So you're on the same bang wagon as me where, you know, peeling them apart. You know.

[00:26:41] I don't need that misogyny or anti-Semitism in my life. Well, he, to me, is like either one of Paul Verhoeven's Dutch jokes that hasn't translated well, or he's like Nicholas Winden Reff, where it's just one twist, one too many. But really, there isn't any twist. It's like, I'm already beside myself when I'm in a movie, and there's already, you know, what feels like padding.

[00:27:06] Or you're just playing with my head just to waste my time. Yeah. Instead of, there is a beginning, middle, and it is like, with Lynch, you know he intended that way, so just stop ripping him off. And like you say, here with Kubrick, he's had to not only outline it, paint it, and then, you know, dress it up some more, and then add all these other material, which is why he's

[00:27:34] got in the genius label, but he's also much like a painting. You'll find a little element here and there, a photo bomb, something. And it is meant to be figured out. And I'm sure there's plenty of secrets he took to his grave, even. And that's his right, because at least we figured out a good order of them, you know. So don't just, and I would get in arguments with film people all the time.

[00:28:04] It's like, okay, I thought you were all about, you know, this is a betrayal of this, and that narrative, it meant nothing before, and yet you're defending, you know, all these other controversial movies, which totally betray their entire premise of everything that came before meant nothing. So, like you say, it is, where would you think, what would you say is his most subjective work by far? I mean, 2001 is designed to be understood completely by the subconscious.

[00:28:36] It's basically what dreams are made of. And when you get to that level, what we're talking about is semiotics, which is how I found the commonality between design and Kubrick's filmmaking. Really? Because communicating through imagery, one, it's really hard. Two, it changes you completely. So for me, it's very much like this.

[00:29:01] But in terms of things that would make other people feel upset, I don't know, maybe a Clockwork Orange or Lolita, there is a message there. With a Clockwork Orange, there is like, I don't know what the message is. What do you think the message is? Which is a violent, strange film to have a neutral stance on. But that's the point. There's that.

[00:29:26] There's, I mean, then it had a sequel, which was like, okay, what's the point of even continuing it? The story's already concluded, you know? 2001. Oh, I don't even. 2010. I don't count that. Okay, all good. Because that's not, I mean, and that's the thing. Like, what I'm focusing on is his viewpoint and his message making. So if he's not involved, it's like, yeah, and. And that's really how I feel. You weren't that far back.

[00:29:56] I thought maybe five seconds about after watching a two-hour movie. So long story short, I really don't know where I feel about Lolita. I should watch it again. But in this day and age, you know. It's challenging. And I am a part of this Kubrick group on Facebook. And in that space, I observe a lot. In this day and age, you might as well be inside the mind of a QAnon person. Please.

[00:30:22] I just am talking about just the, you know, secret pedophile who doesn't realize he's a pedophile. The thing that fascinates me is not that it's the secret pedophile or that there's the back and forth between the two masculine characters. It's how the mom character and how the older women in the film are treated, therefore behave. And that's very true. Because the. Talk about that.

[00:30:48] And it's like, how can you miss this glaring chunk of information that completely influences because like the end of the film, Lolita is pregnant and married. In all fairness, I think it's just because we're distracted by all the other shit hitting the fan. Fair, but that to me is a big diarrhea plot getting ready to drop off. It is. You're right.

[00:31:12] I think it's just because everyone's gotten, you know, literally just their cranium just slammed. Well, it's also a very masculine. Kubrick films, I feel like have been co-opted by bro culture. And it is, you know, he's a masculine director, but he's not a misogynist. And that's the thing. Don't look at what the females are doing. That's true.

[00:31:39] So I never once feel like he is an actual, you know, incel or, you know, misogynist. Like Lars von Trier. I'm so. Lars von Trier is a. Lars is definitely a loser who is. Anti-clist. You're right. And. Oh. He has been in front of the TV way too long to where I don't think he even knows what's real anymore. So. Breaking the waves. Don't get me started. Anyway, like you say. Right.

[00:32:09] And I think the problem, you know, going back to Alita, that's another one is like they even tried remaking it. And so. Because the message that Kubrick had with it is probably not in the Nabokov story. I mean, obviously there are elements. There have to be. But like the amount of sexuality. The amount of.

[00:32:33] And not obviously, obviously between Humbert and Lolita and Quilty and Lolita and the wife's sexual frustration and the swinging couple. Like all of it. All of it compounded. And it's like, if you'd like to pick apart string, please, there's a whole pile of other string that very much adds into what this is about. Right. You know. To prepare for this. I was like, let me revisit.

[00:33:02] Let me revisit these things because I really want to speak about them. And I watched Lolita before I started my project and rewatched it this weekend. And when the mom is hugging the dead husband's ashes and she's like, I was so young. I was so young. You then see what happened to Lolita happened to the mom too. Yeah. Your youth is lost. You get married. You have a child.

[00:33:30] You resent your child when they come into their youth. Like just layers and layers of what society is like in the 60s. Now, it's not as like, is this serious? Because if you watch Rosemary's Baby, holy banana boats. Like Rosemary's Baby is so obviously patriarchal that it's like, is this a comedy? Is she supposed to be a child? No.

[00:34:00] That's just what life was like then. And so looking back from. Our time where women get to have agency and a sense of self. It's different. It's different. And I know a couple of women who talk about film. But it is mostly a male's face. And if it's mostly a male's face, these things are not going to be noticed, let alone talked about.

[00:34:26] It really reiterated to me why Kubrick did the pacing in his film. Why the... He's been driven insane post-reward too. And you cannot think about the thing that just happened because, oh my fucking God, there are skeletons on the couch. Like there's so many things that happen in quick succession that you are forced to forget because the brain only has a limited amount of bandwidth and you are watching the film. Oh, yeah.

[00:34:56] And you got to fight your own war now. Which is how do I survive? The experience is meant to mimic the abuse. And the experience is meant to mimic the gaslighting of being a minority under the threat of an angry white person. A minority. There's even... If you want to even go there, there's even... We're kind of in a society not too far from even get out where we have to figure out who is our true friend.

[00:35:25] It's like what... You know, you or I believe what the right thing to do is and what's acceptable. That's all ingrained. That's not going away. Even though we like to think of ourselves more open-minded, we also... You know, it would take us a while for us to even become, you know, cold-blooded or do something violent to defend a bunch of other people. You know, we're not in that mindset.

[00:35:52] So at the same time, I mean, thank you pretty much have nailed them on the head. So, I mean, how would you rank some of these movies? I'm not saying you got to rank all of them. I mean, because... How could you rank your favorite cats? I cannot rank them. I'm definitely closer to Pass the Glory and The Shining. Those are just the most surprising. I don't get anything out of Barry Lyndon. I know many do. Oh my god. Okay.

[00:36:17] I have to see Barry Lyndon in the theater in order to stay awake while watching it. And it's clear I'm, like, interested in Kubrick's films. It's like he made it saying, see, I can do what you don't expect me to do. You're expecting a shocking movie? No, it's not shocking at all. Well, okay. So I think he works in pairs.

[00:36:43] And if 2001 is a painting that moves, which I feel like it is, it's like a painting in the MoMA, Barry Lyndon is an oil painting that moves. That would be in, like, the Victoria and Albert Hall Museum. Like, beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Technologically impressive. Oh, I'm not saying he can't... Fucking boring. So boring.

[00:37:09] And it's like, why is this the story that you pull? Why did you go from A Clockwork Orange to Barry Lyndon? And who would even make that journey is my question. That would be what I asked him. Be like, what? And then he goes to The Shining. What? Jesus. I like random, okay? Like, I... I feel like it was...

[00:37:37] It's like he decided maybe it was a mercenary job. Do this movie, you get to do whatever crazy thing you do next. Oh, no. It was such a flop. It was such a flop that he, like, hid. He hid. And then came out with The Shining. So I feel like The Shining is probably his most accessible. I think it's why it's still in our cultural mind. As clear...

[00:38:05] I mean, it is so in our pop culture. And the movie came out 40 years ago. What other movie that came out 40 years ago are you like, oh, yeah, I could totally drop a meme about this with Bernie in the background? Lawrence of Arabia. But I know what you mean. It's very, very seldom. That a movie can age that well. Right. I feel like... Let's see The Shining. Eyes Wide Shut pairs with it pretty well.

[00:38:34] It's about a family that has some issues. And the man has a lot of ambition and wants to strive beyond his ambition and realizes, I actually have a hot wife who wants to have sex with me. I should be grateful. Right. With A Clockwork Orange... Oh, God. It's very challenging to watch that film. It's very... It asks a lot of you.

[00:39:01] And it frustrates me that people like to dress up as those characters and use the language. And it's like, um, did we watch the same film? Were we on that one together? But Pads of Glory, Doctor Strangelove, movies that came before 2001 are beautiful in terms of their composition. But they don't have the messaging depth that happened after 2000. The shots in the Pads of Glory are beautiful.

[00:39:31] And they can work as photographs, same as Lolita. But the shots in The Shining, while beautiful, have a lot of messaging. In the styling, in the way that the character is costumed, in the posing, in the background posing, in the set... You know what I mean? Like, there's so much more meat with the print. Right. And that's where I spend my time. I spend them post-2001. Yeah.

[00:40:01] Okay. Yeah. Perfect. Because, I mean, he was just always evolving. You could maybe say he was Hitchcock before Hitchcock realized he was Hitchcock. I'm sure he even surprised himself after a while. He's like, oh, I just thought of that. That's the thing. There's such an air of mystery around him, of like, this untouchable genius. We'll return after these messages. Hi, folks. How's that here?

[00:40:31] We got a 90-minute weekly Shack Stop. It's growing all over the world. Find it at 2 p.m. and 10 p.m. Eastern Time on Mondays. Then 3 p.m. on Wednesdays. Then 7 p.m. on Thursdays. You can catch it on many more radio stations. 99.9 KERV. 1 p.m. Central Time. 2 p.m. Eastern on Mondays. Then catch the Encore on Thursdays at 5 p.m. Central Time. 6 p.m. Eastern.

[00:41:00] Then catch it Wednesday mornings at 11 a.m. Eastern Time. 10 a.m. Central on 1077 K-Twins. Then hang out with us Wednesday afternoons. MXTR and Hitchcock Radio. 3 p.m. Eastern Time. Then Thursday. Get up bright and early with us on 95.7 Web Radio at 6 a.m. Pacific Time. 9 a.m. Eastern. Of course, we've got the Friday covered as well.

[00:41:28] 12 p.m. Eastern Time on MXTR FM. And 10 p.m. Eastern Time. 9 p.m. Central 1077 K-Twins. Find everything on HowShack.com. HowShack! Do you ever find yourself thinking about who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman? Hi, I'm James Gavsey. And on the Who Would Win Show, me and my co-host Ray ignore anything important happening in the outside world

[00:41:55] and debate fictional battles between characters from comics, movies, and video games. We got a new show every week. And almost always, am I the winner? Yeah, not true, Ray. In the past, we've discussed such matches as Captain America vs. Darth Vader, Solid Snake vs. the Iron Giant, classic matchups like Robocop vs. Terminator, and even The Muppets vs. Sesame Street. That one was crazy. So if you're a fan of geek culture and love a spirited debate, check out the Who Would Win Show wherever you get your podcasts,

[00:42:24] or check us out at whowouldwinshow.com. We got some special guests on this crosshair. We got Joseph and Karen from the Bonze Movie Crew. Hello, hello. Palms away. I'm Joseph. I am Karen. The two shinings. I will make that comparison. She's not left shining. I will make that comparison. I'll be a snob about it. There's a good question for you. Stephen King didn't like the film, yeah.

[00:42:54] Yeah, and he's got good reason. So you brought up shining, so is that as positive? And I don't, I do, no. The film is better than the book. No. The only thing I will say, I'm not comparing the book and the movie. What I'm comparing is casting. Right. Jack Nicholson was a terrible cast. Jack Nicholson is crazy from the time he walks into that hotel until the time he leaves.

[00:43:19] And not once do I feel any warmth from him as a father to that boy. Now, he's supposed to be a warm father and a loving husband and not crazy. He's supposed to go crazy and try to kill his family. That was, that was kids. Yeah. That's right. Probably the ball. It's like, yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm the odd duck out. So this may not be the best movie all the time.

[00:43:49] To me though, it's kind of a horror classic just because of the visual imagery. I'm with you actually. So maybe it's not on the top 250 movie, but I just. I mean, I'll say this. I'll say this. He visually is just not enough for me. Okay. No, that's visually. You know, you got to have like, the actors have to bring it for me. To me, it seems like that. And what you're saying is right. There's no warmth between the characters of Shelley Duvall and Jack Nicholson.

[00:44:18] There's no, there's no like, you know, like. Chemistry. And like, of course, you know, it's, it's, it's Kubrick. So Kubrick's kind of trying to get you uncomfortable. He was too busy breaking them. Yeah. He is too. Especially Shelley Duvall, man. He wrecked her life. Yeah. And then. But the whole, the whole, the whole point of The Shining is you're supposed to feel like, okay. If somebody who loves you can go crazy and try to kill you, that's the most terrifying thing in the world.

[00:44:48] Yeah. Fair enough. And, and that, that's not scary. If, if you never feel like he loved his wife or child. And then he just tries to kill him. Like, I'm not surprised by that. Nor should they be. Hello, Mr. Torrance. What shall we be drinking? Oh my God. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised that he tried to kill them. Nor should they be. Did you guys watch Dr. Sleep by any chance? Just out, out of, out of topic here. That's a good one. I need to. It was weird that they brought in that guy that, that, like that Jack Nicholson lookalike

[00:45:16] to play the, the role of the, of the bartender. Yeah. It was, it was, it was so weird. I kind of got the gist that he took his place basically. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Is any of that or Mike Flanagan's movie a horror classic? It's just yesterday. No, guys. Come on. No. Really? Okay. I mean. No. Mike Flanagan ain't been around long enough to have anything. Okay. That would be considered a classic to me. Okay. Okay.

[00:45:44] I'm going to definitely put either Hush or Oculus in there just because they're, they're at least an indie horror classic. I agree. I like Hush and Oculus and I think. I didn't, I didn't care for that. I saw it in theaters. I think with time, I think with time, those can definitely be. I'm not saying they'll be on TCM. I think that, I think that Oculus, if it already hasn't been, but it will be forgot about. I do. I think. I liked Oculus. It's good. Don't get me wrong.

[00:46:10] But Hush is, Hush, unfortunately, will also be forgotten, even though it's actually, I think, in my opinion, a more superior movie to Oculus. Welcome. Welcome once again. So, by, like many of these segments, you know, we've already had multiple chats and everything, but we're just going to close it off for Jack Nicholson themed week and just had to give some love to The Shining as well as its spiritual sequel, Doctor Sleep.

[00:46:39] We discuss the book differences and then explain why fans can think for themselves. Movie goers can think for themselves. You know, regardless of what Stephen King does or knows that, like you, the viewer, can get something out of these movies. But welcome, horror fan and genre geek himself, Lucas Dickinson, back to the show. Welcome. I'm doing pretty good, man. How are you?

[00:47:06] I don't have demons coming after me, so that's a plus. I don't have a haunted house. I don't have a family trying to kill me and vice versa. I think I'm doing good. Good. Good to hear, man. Good to see you. It's been delayed, but we're finally here. Sure thing. And you are the king of promoting free thought. It's already bad enough how people will jump on bandwags and it's like, what are you trying

[00:47:35] to prove to anyone other than clickbait guys? It's like you can separate it. You can like a movie even though a director has disowned it or what have you. Someone's controversial. It's like I can like some of these movies, even though the director might be a shitbag behind the scenes. It's all, I mean, if there's good work, if there's talent, it'll shine through barriers and all. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree, man. There's, yeah.

[00:48:05] I mean, there's people that, I get flack. I mean, like you know, I'm a Rob Zombie fan and I get flack from a lot of people from liking his stuff. It goes back to music, dude. I see so many doing the whole, oh, you listen to that? I'm like, yeah, because it sounds like this group. I love that group. Exactly. It sucks. They're a ripoff. It's like, well, they introduced me to that group. So I guess they did. I mean, we're in 2026.

[00:48:35] Everybody, almost everything's a ripoff of something at this point. As long as you give me your own. Everything's been done. So just give me your vision. If I see some insight, if I see some. Some kind of strike go into it as like, OK, so that was a good knockoff. That was a good similar movie. That was a good inspired by. Yes. Well, so.

[00:49:04] Yeah, I've been seeing some. A lot of people were kind of finding Dr. Sleep to be like the sleeper. No pun intended to hit of the year. Now I'm seeing some serious flack from it online. I'm like, what did Mike Flanagan do to burn your guys's house down? My God. Really? I hadn't seen that. I was leaving a Facebook group. This guy was like, Flanagan, biggest hack. I'm like, I don't think you know what that means. You mean you a ball? No, I mean, Mike Flanagan. I'm like, OK, I don't. Yeah, I don't get that at all.

[00:49:33] I've been impressed from everything I've seen from Flanagan so far. So I found that he's a big Colt Jack X-Files fan. He likes anthologies. So that's why he sneaks Annabeth Gish and some of those other actors in all his different movies. But looking at the psychic moments in Dr. Sleep, there are moments where I'm like, yeah, that's totally Lance Hendrickson's character, Frank Black from Millennium. It's just the same kind of very believable. It's not an actor. Yeah, I didn't think about that at the time, but that makes sense. Yeah.

[00:50:03] The actor is not playing towards the camera. They're actually like meditating for a minute and just the camera loves him. And I have seen Carl Lumbly recently at a Tampa convention. Very, very nice guy. I did not get his autograph, but that's a little different story. I just saw him passing by and he just chill, minding his own business. He's just happy to be here after being a veteran character actor for so long. Nice. That's cool.

[00:50:30] But yeah, I thought they did a good job in casting him as the pre-established psychic from Shining. I think so too. And comparing the director's cuts back to back, it is a very unintrusive director's cut. It still has the same slow build, slow burn. And you really don't notice that the scene has gone on longer.

[00:50:52] It's just kind of like a special edition where it's James Cameron style, where you don't really notice it's gone on longer than it actually was because you're still fascinated by how good it was. So I was just like, okay, that's the best kind instead of, oh, the CGI looks different or the angles are slightly different than the technical stuff I otherwise don't give a shit about is distracting. And it's like, no, I literally would not have ever noticed that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:19] I, until we, until I was prepping for this, I hadn't even, I hadn't even seen the theatrical version. I'd only seen the director's cut before. So that might be why some are hating on it. I guess they didn't get the full gist, even though I maybe, maybe they just don't want to put in the extra half hour, I guess. I don't know, but there would be three hours. Yeah.

[00:51:40] I mean, I think the, this is one of rare kids where I think that much extra time, I think actually, I think that actually helps this one personally. But, you know, a lot of times that can be, like you said, kind of intrusive and, and kind of slow it down. And fuck it up. But with this one, I think a good example. Yeah. Yeah. Good example there.

[00:52:07] But this, this time, yeah, man, I think, I think it really worked out well. And Flanagan, he just, he, he knows the shit. He knows what he's doing. And he made, I think he made a movie that it's, it looks amazing. It's beautiful for one thing. And he put a hell of a cast together for that. Yes. I mean, I think, I think Rebecca Ferguson as Rose the Hat was freaking amazing. She was so good in that role. I wish more people would see this role by her.

[00:52:37] Yeah, me too, man. She was good. One of the special features on the Blu-ray was fun because they're, they're having to lightly tread. It's like, they joke, it's like, we kind of lost our shit because it's like, we're torturing a kid, you know, and we got to make it believable. And we got to go there mentally. It's like, Jesus Christ. And then want to get out of there just as soon as we get the scene done. It's like, man. That would have, yeah, that, that, that would, that would probably have been rough to do.

[00:53:04] That was, that's a, that was a rough scene, man, when they're, when they're torturing the, the baseball boys, as they call them. And it's not feeling like a torture scene. It's more just like the, it's left of the imagination and yet it gives you enough of an idea before they cut away. And it's like, okay, perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They, they, they did that one well. And it's, there's some intense, just some really intense moments. And so there's that one.

[00:53:33] And the other one that really gets, that gets me is the, the part where Grandpa Flick is cycling and dying. Yes. That was so, so well done and emotional and frightening at all at the same time. Totally. It's just something about it where it's just like, man, okay.

[00:53:57] So they, they chose an angle, they chose, uh, it's just a way to show it without overdoing the CGI and everything. And even if I pre-predict the plot twist, like this lines up to this and that, there's like five other things that I can psychologically unravel. Oh, sure. The characters are all going in a different direction with their path, but I want to see how they led up to that and everything.

[00:54:25] And, uh, just suspenseful camera work. There's, I mean, and I'm, again, I've been a Flanagan supporter since I saw Oculus in the theater and it was like, okay, now we, we got a very respectable horror guy. Who's going to make hardcore fans like us happy, uh, more people who like kind of a psycho mystery with some supernatural elements happy. And even people who don't like the genre are going to like this. Like this is, I think he's like, he and Dennis Vanob have figured out I can tackle any genre. You just give me your best.

[00:54:54] I, even if I haven't cared for some of his mini series, like he still puts a lot of more time and care and production design in this element instead of just. Dorking around with the camera for five hours. I really think he really legit slubs every world he goes to. Oh yeah, he does. He definitely does. I haven't, I haven't seen as many series work yet. I've only seen, I've only seen the movie. So the first one I saw was, uh, we George and I've evil, which I, there you go.

[00:55:24] Stake. That was, that was excellent too. No one was expecting it to be good after the first movie. Oh yeah. After that first one, man, I was like, what, why are they doing a sequel to this? And then I, I went ahead and watched it cause, um, that hurt a couple of good things about it. So I gave it a shot and I was like, okay. Yeah. They, they definitely, they definitely redeemed themselves on the sequel there. Yes.

[00:55:50] And you know, you get, you got, you got like always the, you know, as some people call them the Flanagan isms with the, the glowing eyes and all that, that he, that he loves to do in his, in his stuff. Which I think really, it, it really, it really worked. I think it worked more so in Dr. Sleep than it has in some of the other stuff. Oh, totally. And, oh goodness. When he gets to midnight mass, same kind of deal.

[00:56:15] He knows how to showcase people as they're being possessed, taken up into the air. And I mean, midnight mass was probably a second part of Dr. Strange where you had people who at one point, spoiler, are, you know, going to be the hero and then accidentally be taken over by evil. You know, they go against everything they took over while still guiding the hero is like, here's a way to defeat me.

[00:56:44] So, and they do it in a way where it's just like very atypical. So, and according to this Business Insider article, some of the biggest differences compared to the book versus the movie are, Wendy, Dan's mom, asked the hotel chef, Dick Holleran, to visit with Dan. The young boy from the original is now an adult and help him work for trauma.

[00:57:13] He's been seeing ghosts in the movie when he never calls for that. Instead, the chef appears as a ghost who young Danny briefly visits with, speaks with to learn about the magical lockboxes. So there's little different kinds of fantasy and ghosts. It's in New Jersey in the movie as opposed to North Carolina. I don't know why people make a deal about a state unless it's really so pertinent, but whatever. Yeah, that's, that's, that's not a big deal at all. I don't, I don't think at all.

[00:57:43] So, but you know, people, people like to, like to, like to pick it shit any way they can to pick, to pick things apart. So I really want to see what else this Abra actress can do in the future. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do too. I haven't seen her in anything else so far, but she was really good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it helps that she, yeah.

[00:58:10] Kylie Curran and, and basically, I mean, if anything, you know, the shining was pretty much like an unofficial gel for me growing up. It was like, okay, it's a psycho mystery. It's almost a home of reverse home invasion where, what if the, you know, head of the family invaded his family's lifestyle. Um, but yeah, this one kind of is dark fantasy terror, kind of like exorcist Hellraiser for me. So I, I'm already in it to win it.

[00:58:40] I love that kind of omen kind of stuff, but. Uh. That's interesting. I've never, I've never heard the shining compared to a giallo before. I like that. Yeah, I'm probably the, I'm the only idiot here on the planet who thinks that, but, uh, just, you know, I just. There's definitely some stylistic elements there, especially if you like, look at, look at what Argento did and stuff like that. That's kind of what I was thinking. There's some definite, definite similarities there. Sure. Um, I don't know if Friday the 13th also saw this open.

[00:59:09] I don't know. No, I mean, yeah. I mean, that's, you know, they got the basic ideas from, I mean, even though Cunningham will never admit it, they got the basic ideas. Yeah. I mean, it's from Halloween and from giallos. The cinematographers are grips probably dead. Oh yeah, for sure. Uh, yeah.

[00:59:30] I mean, they have, I love how they're able to convince, uh, Ava's dad is like, I'm not here to kidnap your child. It's like, he's the only one who can help locate this, you know, cult and everything and what they're up to.

[00:59:46] And, uh, there's a little extended scenes when they're like at the, uh, at the store, uh, collecting goods and everything for their stuff. So that, that's a little more interesting, just how they have a moment in public and they got to get out before they're discovered. So, um, just as little small things that really make a difference depending on which cut you watch.

[01:00:12] But I mean, it did pretty successful overall. It's just, yeah. I, yeah, man. Like I said, I, I agree. I think, I think it was successful from beginning to end. I mean, he lined up a hell of a hell of a damn cast for it and everything. And I, I think pretty much all of it works. I don't, I don't know if it's necessarily what I would call a quote unquote perfect movie if there is such a thing. But I think.

[01:00:42] What is a perfect movie? Yeah, exactly. I mean, yes. 10 different people that actually get 10 different answers. I, that kind of thing. But that's okay. Best genre movie 2019. Yes, I'd say that. Now. I know. I, I definitely, I definitely would agree. I don't remember where I, where I had it on my list in that year, but I know it was in my top five for sure. But. And you, and you could legit watch this without having ever seen The Shining and you'll kind of be blown away by it because it's just. You know, it's not trying to be just downright zany.

[01:01:11] It's just trying to be just kind of show all this hidden evil and what the house truly represents. So it's answering questions for those who are shining fans and those who just want a compelling, freaky mystery. Yeah. And I think Flanagan did a really remarkable, one of the things that he did a really remarkable job on, because I, what that I was curious about it going in was.

[01:01:39] He was making at the same time, a sequel to King's story and Kubrick's film at the same time. Yes. He managed to, to meld those two together pretty, pretty well, perfectly. And. And because, I mean, of course, you know, we all know how King feels about Kubrick's movie and all that. He softened on, he softened on it a bit over time, but not a whole lot. And. It was funny watching the special features.

[01:02:08] He is basically stroking Mike's head. And I'm like, Jesus, dude. Okay. I got you. Only you did that to yourself. But yeah, surprisingly, yeah. Mike is talking very freely about it being a sequel, which I was even more, I was gut busting. I'm like, oh, wow. All the PR I saw is he Flanagan basically tricked him into saying it's not really a sequel, even though it is. I was like, what? If I could say it any different ways.

[01:02:33] It's like saying this kind of cheese isn't spicy or made from milk. Yeah. Like, how many, what do I have to tell you just so you digest it? Yeah. But yeah. Cherry pies are made from cherry. I don't know. A banana doesn't have any fiber just so you'll eat it. I don't, I don't know what I have to say to you. My trick. Yeah.

[01:03:00] It's because I remember on one of the. I've read the Dr. Sleep book and listen to the audio book. One of the versions on the audio book, there's an introduction by King where he makes, he specifically says that this is, this is a sequel to my book, not Kubrick's movie. You'll just have to deal with that kind of thing. And I was like, okay.

[01:03:27] And he, he's always roasted that thing from the, from the beginning. And so when I knew how tight he was with Flanagan, I was really curious as to where they would go with, with, with Dr. Sleep. And I wouldn't be surprised giving how he's made a name for what he says and does. If he almost has a similar mindset, like an athlete doing locker room talk or a rapper who's done a beef. If once he said it, he can't take it back and he has to still own it, even though he may not necessarily think that way a hundred percent.

[01:03:57] Now, you know what I mean? Like I wouldn't be surprised. That, that, that, that could be, I mean, the last time I heard him talk about it, I think was when he was on Eli Roth's history of horror. And he described the Kubrick shining as, he's like, he's like, I appreciate it in the way that you can appreciate a beautiful, beautifully restored Cadillac with no engine. Him and his cars, man. He's a car guy for sure.

[01:04:28] He's a car guy. He needs to do a NASCAR horror movie. Oh God. Don't give him ideas. Don't give him ideas. Yeah. Don't let's, let's not do that. And this became a shitty passage for his movie. At this point, if he, if he, if he did that, he'd, he'd throw Holly Gibney in there at some point too. I'm sure. Cause all he wants to do right now is Holly Gibney stories. So. Holler.

[01:05:03] And is there anything from his work you're surprised he hasn't adapted yet? Like it kind of blew my mind that growing up that Sleepwalkers was an original screenplay and Storm of the Century. It was an original miniseries. It's obvious. Um, I mean, at this point, I don't, it's, it's hard to say. I mean, I can't even remember everything that's been adapted at this point. There's been so damn much, especially in the last decade or so. And. I mean, there's still some of it.

[01:05:33] I haven't seen like I've, as far as I could remember, unless I saw it when I was a teenager in space, but I don't think I've seen Sleepwalkers. And. It was fun. Not great. I've, I've, I mean, I've heard, I've heard good things about it for the most part, but yeah, I haven't. It's by his partner in crime, Mick Garris, who. Had him on his podcast a bunch of times. But. Oh yeah. I mean, I, I haven't seen a whole lot of Mick's stuff.

[01:05:58] Um, some of it I have seen, like I, I did for the second time I watched the, uh, his version of the shining. That him and King put together for this, which I, I like it. Yeah. I'll let you defend that. Uh, what, what do you feel like that did differently? You know, like in terms of lighting, acting introduction, two part miniseries. I mean. It obviously it's not as, it doesn't look, of course, as good as, as Kubrick's, but I mean, that's.

[01:06:28] Can be really hard to do. Cause I mean, for one thing it was done, it was done for TV and all that, but. Right. Um, you know, I think in general, especially the. The acting, I thought, especially from, um, Stephen Weber and, um. Oh, I'm blanking on her name. And Rebecca DeMornay. I didn't have an issue with her. Yeah, you got Rebecca DeMornay. No, they were, they were both really good in their roles. And especially Rebecca DeMornay, she played.

[01:06:58] She definitely played, uh, the role of Wendy at definitely more as she is in the novel. Yes. Um, than what Kubrick had, um, Shelley Duvall do. And, you know, I, and I don't want it to come across, you know, like I'm picking on Shelley Duvall for that or anything because, you know, Kubrick basically abused her, abused her during, during the making of that movie.

[01:07:26] And kind of, you know, emotionally ruined her, but. But, and what she did, she, she, she did well, but that was not the character from the actual story. I don't know why he had her play such a kind of a meek. Scaredy. Scaredy. Oh, I mean, yeah, he was an egomaniac and an asshole for sure. But, I mean, he has his vision and he's going to stick to it. One, 100%.

[01:07:55] Like, I mean, the fact that he had, I think the one scene was with, uh, where Danny and Scatman Carruthers were doing their scene in the kitchen. He had him, I think, do like something like 114 takes of that, of that one scene. Yeah. Pretty ridiculous. To the point where Scatman Carruthers was in tears by the end of it. Yep. Uh, Shawnee Smith, I forgot, was the waitress in the 97 remake. And, uh, you know, her from the song. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:25] She was, I did, I didn't realize it at the time. Yeah. Still cute. Yeah. Got to agree with that. And yeah, the, uh, but yeah, the, the Mick Garris version, you know, it's, I think they, they did a remarkable job, you know, sticking, sticking to the, to the actual story and adapting it. Yeah. And as well as one could, they were adapting not only Stephen King like crazy, but like,

[01:08:53] this also reminds me of some of the other many Dean Koontz adaptations that were popular in the late eighties, early nineties. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, Michael cried and takes over and there's all kinds of other stuff. We're just like, yep. Got to make this like that. And it's like, Oh yeah. They, they went, they went crazy with the, with the adapt adaptations in the nineties. And the, you know, the one thing that I see people always picking on, picking on the Garris

[01:09:18] version of course, is the, uh, the CGI, you know, especially with the, the hedge animals and all that. But that was a thing, obviously King wanted in there and, you know, I think for, I think for the, for the time, I think they did pretty much as well as they could with the, with the CGI for that. There's, you know, TV budget. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a TV budget, like for, for one thing and CGI was kind of in its infancy at the time.

[01:09:47] So they did, it's not, not great, but you know, they, they did what they could with it. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's terrible. I don't think it ruins the movie or anything, but yeah. Other than that, I kind of don't have any other closing thoughts or, uh, but I, I think overall, like it, it would be interesting to do a double feature with either of these

[01:10:17] versions alone, just even other movies by Flanagan or some of the other guys who do freaky stuff. And I. Oh, did, did you, did you, did you ever get around to watching room two, two 37? Uh, I saw, uh, shit. Was that the one I thought I saw? Oh, okay. No, I didn't get to see that one. Okay.

[01:10:41] But just you summing it up for me, I was like, man, I thought the, so that is the various interpretations of Kubrick's shining. It is a back to 2012. It's on to be for anyone who wants to see it. And I was just like, my mind was exploding and telling me, I was like, what the fuck? I knew it. I watched it again. I watched it again this morning and it just, it, when I first watched it, I just thought it was stupid.

[01:11:10] But now at this point, cause I think this is the third or fourth time I've watched it now. It's just, it's just funny to me. The shit that people pull out from this, from this freaking movie. And I mean, they're just all over the place with it. Everything from it being about the, uh, the genocide of the American Indians to the Holocaust

[01:11:34] to the moon landing, the moon landing being fake and MKUltra. I know about the Navajo burial ground growing up where the property is condemned upon, but that was it. Like that's all I had. It's, there's so all over the place with it. It's. And I don't know why it's Kubrick of all people, because he's not like an accessible guy who many people can find every other interview on. So it was just like, all right. Yeah.

[01:12:03] And they, and the, there's one, there's one guy in room two 37 who goes on about the, who's going on and on and on about the, you know, about the moon landing thing and how, um, 2001, a space odyssey was, was Kubrick's like kind of test for getting ready to fake the, to fake the moon landing and all that. And he said, and he, according to him, he said, he's had people that have worked for

[01:12:32] NASA that have told him that, that the footage we saw of the moon landing was, was fake. And Kubrick was the one that did it. But I, you know, I, I can't, I just, it's amazing to me that people pull this shit out of, out of, out of a movie. And it's almost like they want a debate and they're forcing the debate. I'm like, if I'm going to lose a debate, why would I even want to do a debate?

[01:13:01] Like I'm not even getting a clickbait or anything. What, what, what is the real game plan? I don't, I don't know. I don't get it. And I don't get how they, how they come to these, to these weird conclusions. It's like, it's almost like they're going in wanting to, wanting to see this kind of thing or wanting to pick it apart and pull, to pull things out of it. I just, I, I don't get it personally.

[01:13:27] With wrenches being, I mean, yeah, kind of. Uh, do you, who do you think gives a career best in any of these movies? Um, I definitely would put even McGregor in here. I like his crime movie roles. I think he did, he did really well in it. Um, and he didn't hog it.

[01:13:57] I've seen so many other A-listers and he's like, they're great on a talk show. And then you hear behind the scenes, I have to hog it. I have to rewrite the scene if I'm not in it. And he's like, no, I didn't feel like he was taking away the focus. It's like, it's, he starts off. I don't think so. And then it's the girl's decision after that point. I, I think, um, Stephen Weber was pretty remarkable as, as Jack in, in the mid-year. He's a legit good actor. Out of all the comedians. Yeah, he. I trust. He really is.

[01:14:27] I trust him. People. Oh yeah, absolutely. People pigeonhole him, you know, cause he was in, he was in Wings and a lot of weird comedic stuff back in the day. But he's a, he's a damn good actor. In fact, he's one of the things he's really good at, I found out is, um, voice acting and narration. Cause he does the audio book for Stephen King's it. And it's, it is fantastically done. Is that before or after the Mick Garris collabs with King?

[01:14:55] Uh, I think it was, I think it was after, I think it was sometime in the, in 2000s. I believe it was when that, when that was done, but it's, he's really excellent on that. But he's in single white females. So he's done filler stuff before. I think. Oh yeah. He's good, but I don't like his character on Chicago med, but that's a whole different story that just cause I don't like that character, how it's written doesn't mean he's. Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. And Nicholson of course was, was good for, you know, for that interpretation of Jack Torrance.

[01:15:24] I hate how the posters though. Give away that. Yeah. Oh, and. That was before. Did anyone ever. Go ahead. Did anyone ever say, ask me no more questions. Sorry. Lame joke. Uh, that's fair. That I like it. I like it. And that was of course before he just, you know, was. I'm Jack. Yeah. That's kind of before he was just being Jack Nicholson and everything. But.

[01:15:54] And though the, one of the stories I, I, I love about, about that is how, when they were doing the scene where he was ax, you know, breaking the door down with the ax. They, they, they had a stunt door and they didn't know that he had been a fireman and he just went through the door with that ax. Like it was nothing. So, so they had to, they had to bring in an actual real door for him. So, so it would, uh, make it the scene. Make it be harder to resist than it actually is.

[01:16:24] Exactly. Just went through it like it was paper. Um, let's see other performances. I mean, I already said, you know, Rebecca, Rebecca Ferguson was excellent as Rose the Hat. I, yeah. Hey, there's two Rebecca's. We got them more. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca. Yeah. They're, they're both, they're both really good. And I, I think she's up there now as, um, you know, she became one of my favorite

[01:16:50] up there with, um, with Kathy Bates as one of my favorite King villains now because they're, they both did those roles. So, so excellently, you know? Yeah. And he's referring to misery. You noobs. All right. Um, yes. Misery and he will. I haven't seen it. If you haven't seen it, go see it. Oh, so I got to ask you being the genre fan you are. I always joked about this. Who would win in an ax fight? Jack Torrance. Yes.

[01:17:20] Or Patrick Bateman from American Psycho or the killer from Silent Night. Oh man. And everyone's like, why would you ask a random ass question? I'm like, cause they're all ax wielding maniacs. I can't help it. The morbid curiosity. I'd probably go with Jack Torrance. Cause he, you know, he was, he was possessed. He had the, uh, you know, he had the ghost inside of him doing that. So I'd, I'd lean more towards him.

[01:17:50] And I still, and Patrick. And Bateman, we still don't really know. We still, we, well, the thing is, is we still don't even really know if he killed anybody. Okay. So spoiler. And if, if you ask, and if you ask Brett Easton Ellis, he doesn't even know. Maybe it was. And he, he, he wrote the novel. He's not even sure. So. I had a good theory. It was on the unofficial Christmas movie time of the season last year.

[01:18:18] And I did ask a podcast in the woods co-host. It was like what he thought. He was like, okay, right after the first detective interview. And by the time you get to the bar, that's when that's all bullshit he's making up. That that's, that's where the credibility line fizzles. You know, he did not actually bang those hookers and kill them. He did not do all this other stuff. And if he did, maybe it was just one prostitute, not two. You know, like the numbers is not his forte. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:18:47] I think so. I kind of lean more towards the, it all took place in his head, except for, I think maybe. He shot a cop. I think he definitely shot a cop, I think, but he definitely didn't blow it up with repeatedly. No, no, no. Action movie logic. And how about this? Maybe Danny Torrance probed his mind. And that's. Oh, hey. There's one for the, there's one for the conspiracy nuts. There we go.

[01:19:17] There you go. I just shit the bed with that. Boom. We landed on the moon and now blew up. Perfect. Sure. Why not? Oh, and it is kind of funny though. It was like, I, I, I've seen people like to nitpick how stuff is shot on. I haven't seen anyone complain how this is shot on. It was like, this kind of looks like a timeless movie, regardless of what level of widescreen it shot in.

[01:19:47] So kind of like how David Fincher recreated the Citizen Kane look for Mank, which is appropriate. It's about the creator who wrote that movie. It's interesting how this kind of has kind of a seventies kind of look, but it's not really sepia tone. It's not really vivid with the colors. It's still kind of, he's really good at lighting in the darkness. I can still see what's going on and have it be moody. And it serves the story. He's not just wanking around with style points.

[01:20:15] He's actually getting, making it move forward with his shots as such. Tell the story instead of that's cool, but that's not moving the story along. You know, it was like, yeah. It's late. It's late. But yeah, I think, yeah, Flanagan did, you know, he did a, he did a remarkable job of making, making the film look freaking. It's just, I think, I think it's a beautiful, I think it's beautiful. I wouldn't know what era it was made in. I literally would not. I'd be like. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:45] It could, it could be. You could tell me it's 87. Maybe not quite, but if anything, I'd be like, yeah, it was made in 95. No, it's 2019. 2019. Yeah. I mean, the only, the only thing that might give it away is, you know, the parts, you know, where, where Abra's on the, you know, poking around the internet and that kind of shit. But other than that, you know, other than that, that's, that's really about it. And. Gotta be looking around for stuff like that.

[01:21:15] Oh yeah, for sure. You know, but one of, one of my favorite parts I thought was, um, the, uh, where, um, um, Danny and Billy ambush the, uh, the few of the true not members in, in the woods and just start, just start capping them left and right and, and picking them off. I thought that was really well done. And the way they have, the way they have them die, I thought was fantastic.

[01:21:43] The way they kind of go into the sounds and the convulsions and then these kind of disappear into smoke. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Really, really a freaking cool twist on it. Yeah. I can't tell if it's actual dry ice or CGI and I'm, I'm not focused on that. Like other movies where I'm distracted by how it's made because it's shocking editing or anything. Like, no, I, I made it to win it. Like I, I'm just as freaked out by the powers just as the minute I see it, as well as wanting

[01:22:11] to know more about it, the more curiosity starts turning in one's cranium. You're like, okay. Oh, definitely. Yeah. He, yeah. You want the kid, you're doing a terrible thing. I don't know why. Let me know why. I mean, he obviously must have had a hell of a budget to work with. I didn't, I didn't look up that information. So I don't know the, I don't know the budget, but he, I mean, he, he did well. And 45 million. Okay. Well, there you go. Hey, 72 million.

[01:22:40] It can spudge your marketing costs. So some say 55 million. So I don't trust it just to be honest, but whatever. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty, pretty big deal though. For a guy who did the typical low budget work with one to 5 million. But your actor, I think, yeah. Dr. Sleep. I think that was the, that was the biggest thing he'd done up to that point. I like him in a Romero way.

[01:23:08] Cause even though he's flirted with King before he, he has his own essence of what he wants to do. He likes to kind of let shit speak for itself without going on a lecture. Yeah. Yeah. He, uh, and he's, you know, he's kind of become, I guess at this point other, he's then, I guess the, for Stephen King, he's the new version of McGarris. He's kind of his, his, uh, pet director now he's done a lot of his stuff.

[01:23:36] And I think he's got another one or two Stephen King projects on the books. McGarris is interesting. For it to be made in the future. Because people I don't know him for the comedy stuff he did or the King adaptations or just some of the other, you know, masters of horror TV shows and amazing stories. So it is funny how these kinds of filmmakers remind me of comedians. It's like, I can give you the G rated version, the PG, PG 13 version, or I can give you the flat out R rated, you know, X rated, you know, verbatim.

[01:24:05] Just tell me the line, which we will or won't dip beyond. And I'm ready. I'll snap my fingers. And just like that, I am who you want me to be. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I, I, I, I, I, I watched these things and watched this. This is, I've never watched the shining, Kubrick shining and Dr. Sleep in this close of proximity before.

[01:24:34] It, it kind of makes me wonder how, how the shining would have, how Kubrick shining would have turned out if him, if him and King had gotten along and worked better together than what they did. Cause I guess, you know, King, King did write a version of the, of the script. And I guess Kubrick, of course, hated it and tore it up and redid his own thing. Oh man.

[01:25:01] And there's that one infamous time that King talks about where he got a call. I think he said it was like in the middle of the night from Kubrick to ask King whether or not he believed in God for some reason. And King said, well, yeah, I do. And he's like, well, I don't, I'm an atheist. And for some reason, I guess that plain and thickens his interpretation of the shining, which I don't understand that.

[01:25:27] And I mean, William freaking show that you could, he notoriously, like he had the one doctor who was actually behind the murders they found out later while during the making of the exorcist. He had another guy who was a tracker, but clearly a con artist with a military background and the hunted. But it didn't matter. He was like the king of, I will put anything on screen, whether it's bullshit or well researched and you will buy it because I'm a fucking amazing director.

[01:25:57] So I think if you want to put your personal beliefs and infer it on a movie that you can do that or you can just wing it and just, I mean, I'll watch the deleted scenes on movies and half the time I'll be like, oh, sucks. But you don't know. Sometimes you film it. It is stupid as it sounds. You waste so much time, but you have to. You have to rehearse it.

[01:26:25] And sometimes just to commit yourself. Yeah, that performance that needs some work or let me cut out this one scene. It gives too much away before we reveal the plot twist or this plot. The more I detail it, let's rip that part up. You don't need to know about this character's backstory. It'll just distract from the focus. Well, that's that's part of the reason why when, you know, on Kevin Smith's stuff on his special features, when he shows his deleted scenes, that's why he called he refers to

[01:26:54] it as this is why movies cost so much. Yes. Oh, man. And he started out very indie. So, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't recognize Henry Thomas as Jack Torrance. I absolutely didn't. And he's a regular in Flanagan stuff now. That is literally all he's done since the 2010s. I thought he did. I thought that was he did. I mean, both him and strategically hide his face, too.

[01:27:24] So you're not looking for it. You're getting used to it. It's like, oh, fuck. Who's that run down the hall? It's the red sweater. That's got to be Jack. There's I thought he did. I thought he did. I thought he did really well on that. And so did her name's escaped me. But the lady that played that lady that played Wendy. Yes. In the earlier scene. She she did that really well. They did some good hair and makeup. Make her look like it. Yeah. Her dialogue wasn't still. So, yeah. Pretty hard to fuck this up.

[01:27:52] What's so funny, though, is I'm a big Ted Lasso fan. And they did a hysterical. He pops out movie references all the time. And you have to rewatch him five different times in a row like Monty Python just to get all the jokes in the room. And at one point he says, swing an axe like Jack Torrance. You're already laughing at his delivery. You're already. I'm guffiant because I get the reference. And then I'm like, it's still fucking funny just because it's like he's he's having very heavy handed metaphors just to get them to win the game.

[01:28:22] Swing an axe. I've not actually seen. I've never seen Ted Lasso. So that's fine. I might actually have to give that a shot at this. I didn't know they were did things like that. I didn't think I would like it. I was like, you know, it's too close. Stuff based on sketches can be OK, but not have trouble getting to the end of the dome within minutes. I'm like, OK, focused going along with it. I can't get enough of this. It's just coming back. I just never wanted to give a shot.

[01:28:52] I never wanted to give a shot initially because I know there's a lot of crossover between that and for fans of The Office. And I just I never got into The Office. So I never gave Ted Lasso a chance. But I don't get The Office connection. I don't know. For some reason, I've seen a lot of fans that love The Office seem to love Ted Lasso, too. So I never it's by the scrubs and shrinking guys. Oh, OK. Well, there you go.

[01:29:21] Scrubs, I scrubs. I like. Yeah. Yeah. The closest connection might be it's a workplace comedy. That might be it. But maybe it's not using the mockumentary at all. Although I would love if Mike Flanagan did a mock documentary or as did what they did with Hell House LLC movies, have a documentary crew in the middle of a horror movie.

[01:29:45] I would love to see what he what he could do with something like that, with a mockumentary found footage kind of deal. I mean, I'm at this point, I'm I'll I'll give anything he does a chance at this point until he until he lets me down. I mean, he's I'm tired of remakes. He's bad. He's bad. I'm giving him a chance with these remakes because I know he hates remakes more than anything. So he's going to do his damnedest with carry or what have you. Oh, God, he is. Yeah, he is doing the carry. I forgot about that. I did hear about that recently when I was listening to 22 shots.

[01:30:15] God, that one. I mean, I mean, I mean, if Flanagan's behind it, I'll give it a shot. So, you know, I mean, I like I like the original carry. I didn't see the sequel or the TV version. And from what I've heard, I don't from what I've heard, I don't want to, especially that TV version I've heard is absolute dog shit. It was boring. And I felt so sorry because the Canadian actors have been in utter fun Twilight Zone type shows.

[01:30:44] And the director had helmed a lot of good sci fi horror shows. And I was like, oh, pretty dull. And like it was during that time when they were starting to use digital and God, it hurt my eyes after a while. I can imagine. Three hours. I felt like nine. God, three hours of that. Jesus. Jesus.

[01:31:13] Yeah, I did rewatch carry. And it is interesting how that could have easily crossed over with shining. And really, the only people who really cross over are some of the different characters from, you know, Dark Tower and all the different King adaptations. But at this point, they're kind of like Stephen King stuff is very much like. Like, dare I say, Scott Turow and Tom Clancy stuff, whereas like at this point, people are just comparing different versions of the character.

[01:31:43] It's not the universes aren't connected with the different adaptations. So it's like, yeah, take what you want. Keep what you keep. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there is some. Some definite interconnectedness a lot in a lot of King's work. And he kind of seems to, especially with the Dark Tower thing nowadays, he kind of seems to want to say that all of his stuff is connected with the Dark Tower.

[01:32:10] And I kind of think he's just saying that to say that kind of thing. But I mean, I know some of it is because I've only read three of the Dark Tower books. But and I know enough about it to know that there is, you know, to get some of the references and some of the other stuff like. The low men in yellow coat story that was made into Hearts in Atlantis.

[01:32:36] You know, there's crossovers there and they mentioned the gunslinger and the tower and stuff in that story that I don't think they have seen in a while. I also don't think they mentioned any of that in the actual movie. No, I didn't get any of that. And I don't understand why they even called that movie Hearts in Atlantis, because that was a whole that was a whole different story. So, yeah, I mean, they were they were public.

[01:33:04] They were published together, but that was. That was the Shawshank moment where it's like it's based on a short he wrote. That's about it. But Green Mile has a hard to. On the web on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.

[01:33:31] The podcast is available on Podbean, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Anchor, Apple and anywhere else podcasts are available. Feel free to review our show and leave comments on any of those sites. Thanks a million for listening. It's a jacked up.