The Ed Sullivan Show Retrospect (with JJ, Tom & Gil Palmer!)

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[00:00:59] JJ and I are back in the studio after a lovely bunch of holidays. Too many to count at this rate. Stuffed ourselves with expensive food. I think we're ready to settle back in to talk about. And now we're ready for a really big chew. A really big chew. We're talking about the one, the only talk show host, Ed Sullivan.

[00:01:24] This is interesting because I've seen many people vary on him. Some people thought he was a good talk show host while he was... He was an emcee. Right, emcee. But I've seen some people just refer to him as just a host, but not just an emcee and vice versa. Some people think he's a good emcee, but not much of a host. Where do you guys kind of land on him?

[00:01:43] I'm kind of... I've seen him throughout my life and I just always liked his attitude, but I do think the critique is kind of valid because he just had a voice, but maybe it wasn't necessarily a talk show voice. But where do you guys land on that? To me, Ed Sullivan was a guy who had a vision. And that vision was to bring entertainment to people through either comedians, musicians, parts from a Broadway show.

[00:02:12] So, you know, he always was looking out for something. And you guys think he started in 1948 with Toast to the Town, which was the forerunner to what the Ed Sullivan show was to become.

[00:02:29] And, you know, he had an hour on Sunday. And you guys think he was, you know, he would bring in, you know, comedians, you know, you know, you know, there'd be bits from like, you know, Broadway shows and singers and stuff like that. But he really did. To me, it really didn't hit for him until he had Elvis on. Oh, and Elvis was on Steve Allen the week before.

[00:02:57] And Steve Allen and him were having kind of a back and forth reading site. So when he brought Elvis on, he kind of kicked the door open for rock and roll to be acceptable because then you would have people like Buddy Holly, you know, Bo Diddley, you know, all these other acts, you know. And then when the 60s came along, you know, you got to notice that first wave of rock and roll guys. And then he beat Pete. He was the guy who championed a lot of black acts to like the Temptations, the Four Tops, I can Tina Turner.

[00:03:27] He kicked the door. He opened the door for them to be acceptable. I saw that he paid for Louis Armstrong's funeral in Harlem. That's how close he was. When the 60s came along. Yep. He was Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder. He presented what Wilson and Richard Pryor performed. Yeah. Flip Wilson and Richard Pryor. He had George Carlin on when George Carlin was being like banned almost by a lot of places.

[00:03:56] Was that what George Carlin? When did he start doing his, his like what you'd call his natural act, I guess, as opposed to this? Seventy. Was it? Seventy. Seventy. Because I know he went on, he went on. Yeah. He was canceled by 71. So. Yeah. So it had to be 70, 70, early 71. Carlin is doing the whole, you know, the hair bit, the hair poem. Yes. Yeah.

[00:04:23] And he brings him on. But the thing Sullivan is mostly known for is having the Beatles on. And his thing was, he was in, he was in England. He was going through Heathrow Airport. He saw, you know, these people and he's like, who's this band? Who's this? Where are they? Oh, they're for the Beatles. Now you got to realize the Beatles just come back from Sweden where they were the opening act on a television show for some Swedish television producer or something like that.

[00:04:54] And he said, all right, I'll sign them on for two shows for like 50 grand a piece or something like that. Really low in that time. That's nice. And, you know, the wave. But it's still a start compared to some of the other types, like, like compared to say like the Dick Clark ones where everyone was kind of hustling each other. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:17] And I think the thing with, with the difference between him and like Dick Clark was Dick Clark was kind of a constructed moment. You know, Ed Sullivan was, he brought them on. They got big. And then they would come back if he liked, you know, like, yeah, I think he had the, he had the Beatles, the Stones, the Doors, who he only had on once, the Birds. And that was so funny because they told them not to play that risque song.

[00:05:46] It was one line. It was one. And if you read about it in real life, the thing with the Doors was very blown out of proportion in the Oliver Stone movie. Yeah. Yeah. I imagine. Yeah. The word higher, I think, was the issue. Yep. You can, girl, you can't get much better. You can't get much higher. Yeah. Even Ed Sullivan's official site refers to him as a stone-faced humorless MC. But see, I recall him smiling quite a lot. I do remember him seeing pictures of him. He's a straight face.

[00:06:16] Yeah. But, I mean, he's just the host. So, I mean. He's not, yeah. He's not there to draw attention onto himself. Like, he was there to draw attention onto the acts. Yeah. And I didn't realize, I didn't realize he had a start in 20s radio, but that makes sense as to why he got the credentials. Yep. A lot of comedians who performed include Hank Williams, other singers.

[00:06:46] Yeah. He had Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin, the Beatles, Jack Benny, Hank Williams Jr. and the Rolling Stones. Yeah. Dick Van Dyke, I think I might have seen that appearance. He was doing, they were, I think they were just about to do Bye Bye Birdie. So that tied in because he's in Bye Bye Birdie, Ed Sullivan. Oh, okay. There you go. Re-advertising for him.

[00:07:16] Man, going back to Carlin for a moment, it should be pointing out that Carlin actually did a bit on his album FM AM where he talked about Ed Sullivan and did a really good impression. And the way he approached it was so brilliant. Like it was like, it didn't matter who was on. It just had to be the wildest acts you could find.

[00:07:42] And to me, that takes him away from the talk show element of it and made him more like an MC of almost like a vaudeville show. It is kind of a vaudeville. Vaudeville is definitely a good contrast because it's going beyond even just a variety show. Yeah. And just everything from Topo Isisio to Senior Wences to the comedians, the musicians, to the various different acts that you could only see on Ed Sullivan.

[00:08:10] I dare say that Ed Sullivan really solidified the idea of must-see TV. I think you can get some DVD compilations of his work, but it's not uncommon that you'll see him replayed on anywhere from like a GetTV type Nintendo station or a local PBS. He's just one of those kind of guys, just constantly syndicated still because there's something for everybody. Yeah.

[00:08:38] Did you hear about the time Jackie Mason was on and he banned him because Jackie Mason flipped him off? Okay. The story goes with this. Jackie Mason was doing his act. He was preempted by a speech from Johnson, President Johnson, right? Mm-hmm. President Johnson had to give a speech so they're telling him to wrap it up.

[00:09:05] They're telling him to wrap it up and he's going, that guy's giving me two fingers. I'm giving him one finger. He's giving me two. I'll give him two for three. He, you know, and he wasn't bombing, but it was just kind of like they cut in. So Jackie Mason puts one finger up. The way it looks, it looks like he's flipping the bird off. And Jackie Mason said, there I am. There's this sort of looking at me like he's going to kill me. You know, he doesn't know what I did. I didn't flip anybody off or anything like that.

[00:09:35] I saw there was a lawsuit, but I don't know who won. But yeah, he was banned for 20 years from that show. No, he wasn't banned for 20 years. Okay, well, he ruined his career for 20 years. Yeah, 20 years of his career. So Jackie Mason went on, you know, to do The World According to Me. And, you know, Jackie came back on the show, I think, in 1967 for one night.

[00:10:03] And, you know, John Biner actually talked about it. And he was on the same show as Jackie Mason because he went downstairs and he just heard, I don't want that son of a bitch ever on our show ever again. You know, he really pissed me off. And he's serious. Like, you know, Biner's going like, holy shit. You know, what the hell happened? You know? Well, I was actually surprised. Sorry.

[00:10:33] Go ahead. I was actually surprised because I went down and, you know, I was watching some Ed Sullivan clips off of like Pluto and stuff. I was not aware that the Muppets went before 1970s. Oh, sweet. And they appeared in Ed Sullivan, but that's not even where they originated. They appeared in some shows before 1950-something. I didn't even know they ever went back that far. They're originally on the Jimmy Dean show.

[00:11:00] And when Jimmy Dean went off the air, Sullivan got them. And there's some stuff on that Sullivan show. The Muppets did. It's very surreal humor. Very, very awkward. Especially for that time period, yep. Yes. Did you ever hear how Ed Sullivan once responded to New York World Telegram and Sun's critic Harriet Van Horn when she said he has – he got to where he is by having no personality.

[00:11:29] He is the commonest common denominator. Oh, God. Jesus Christ. You sent a note back saying, dear Miss Van Horn, you bitch. Sincerely, Ed Sullivan. Ed Sullivan. Well, he didn't get along with some people, and I know – You think? One of them was Walter Winchell. Walter Winchell. Okay. Walter Winchell was a radio host. Oh, Jesus. Who was like, good morning, Mr. American.

[00:11:59] I got some callers. Yeah. He was a muckraker. He was kind of like – He was TMZ before it was cool. Yeah. Yeah. And what happened was that he started to say stuff about Jack Parr. Now, you got to realize, too, Winchell tried to launch his own variety show. Wow.

[00:12:21] And Sullivan was just like waiting for him to fail because he knew Winchell was not as – Captivating. Captivating. He didn't have that personality about him. He would just be like, hey, I got to watch. Yeah. I think the Winchell show only lasted like two years, and that was it. And Winchell – As you know, Winchell like died in poverty almost, you know, from what I understand.

[00:12:50] That's right. A forgotten character, you know. But the thing with Sullivan was that he knew how to keep everybody tuned in with what he was doing. And he discovered a lot of people, too. That's good. If you guys know about the guy who could imitate him the best, the greatest guy to imitate Ed Sullivan was a guy named Will Jordan. Yes.

[00:13:20] And Will Jordan is named in the Carlin piece. He said most people prefer to John Biner. I prefer to Will Jordan. The Will Jordan, yeah. Nice. There's like they're not so subtly passing the torch to one another kind of. Well, the thing is like I think Biner and Jordan kind of got the blessing to do it. Barlow was kind of doing it like, you know, yeah, no problem. I'll just do a quick imitation of him anyway.

[00:13:47] But I love that when people like mention each other in their act. Like it's not a diss. It's just and now on to the next, you know. It's this guy. He discovered me, you know. He's just as cool. I feel like that is severely missing in today's kind of comedy where we're right back to. I got it. We got to taunt one another. Yeah. And that's the thing. The comedians back then he would have on Alan King.

[00:14:14] You know, John Biner who did one bit that cracked me up. If you guys ever watch it. It's it's it's you know, we can only get half the half the act here. There are a lot of clips on the YouTube channel. So I'm sure it's on there. The flight, the flight, the flying Kermatsov brother. And it's like he says, he's not the same without my brother. You know, he jumps on. He jumps on a seesaw like the guy's going to fly. He goes, hey, OK. He turns to us. He's not the same without my brother, you know.

[00:14:46] But he did. You know, the community. You know, I can remember having Jackie Vernon on. Here's some slides from my last vacation. Here's me and my wife getting off the plane. Here's my wife getting back on the plane. And realize she left her handbag on the plane. Here's the plane taking off with my wife in it. Oh, my God. Here I am in Rome. Here I am. You know, he would just do this thing where he's like he's showing slide vacation.

[00:15:16] That was his thing, you know. But he would have all. And then he had all the Vaudeville guys on, too. Yeah. Go ahead. I was just going to say, I one of the clips I saw tonight was Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner doing the 2000 year old man. Yes. Yes. Yes. Perfect. Love those two. So I have a funny story for you.

[00:15:44] I did not pick this because of this story, but I think you'll find this very interesting. Interesting. I think what is really funny is it's also my dad's name, Camp Sullivan. Ed Sullivan. What's funny is back in the 60s in high school, there was a hall monitor who was very picky at his Iowa school.

[00:16:11] And he kept getting stopped by this picky guy. And he would always ask him, what's your name, son? And of course, he said Ed Sullivan. He's like, oh, you some kind of wise guy. So he's like the TV host. Get that. Get out of here. Go to the principal's office. So finally, some gym assistants, you know, saw him. He's like, no, he's running to gym class. He's doing what he's supposed to. He's like, all right, I better not see you in this hallway at this time again.

[00:16:39] But I do think it's a very common name. So I do always try to clarify. Like, no, I mean the classic era TV, you know, MC. What do you guys think of his overall persona? Like, does the straight face work or is it just he was there to host and he did a decent enough job? Like, what do you kind of take away from the most, do you think, other than awesome comedy and music moments?

[00:17:10] Basically, all I've had is a chance to see our clips and they usually focused on the acts. So he'd be in and introduced quickly and be out and then come back in at the end. So he didn't do a lot for what I saw. All right. No, this is cool. I like this kind of critiques. I think he did enough. I think he has a way more persona than, say, Clive Anderson on Whose Line, who's way too dry for my taste. He's good, but he's pretty dry.

[00:17:39] And this guy, I think he does enough. Like, again, the smile is just very infectious for me. I don't know why. It's just. I feel like he really enjoyed what he did, as opposed to, you know, hey, I'm a hot shot. I got an ego going. I certainly read things about that. I did see that he was a lady's man. He liked to gamble on horses, but who didn't at that time? A lot of girls backstage got the pinch from Ed.

[00:18:08] I saw that he liked long-legged dancers in particular. Oh, yes. You know what they say about a guy with a really big shoe? Baby, right here for you. I always kind of view him as like, sure, he was the emcee. And sure, he was there to introduce the acts and everything.

[00:18:35] But for me, it's like he was the guy who basically was looking at the entertainment industry saying, what's going to be big? What's going to be the next thing that comes along? What's going to be the thing that kind of shakes everybody to the core? Play it safe here. Play it safe here. But get the other stuff on. You know, get the other stuff. Definitely a precursor to the ratings game.

[00:19:05] But like you say, still under strict censorship. He is. I'm sorry. No, it's not good. Who's on first? Definitely. His show was definitely a time capsule for those 20-some years that he was on. Yeah. You know, everything that came along. It was on his show. You know, anything.

[00:19:29] Bob Dylan still regrets not appearing on his show due to a disagreement on performing Talking John Birch Society blues. Yeah. Which I think is still a tamed song. It's not a risky, risky song. It had a lot of people in the entertainment industry who were in the John Birch Society. Oh. You know. Yeah. So he was a communist. No, no, no. He, uh, no.

[00:20:00] John Birch is really ultra right wing, you know, for the 1960s. Gotcha. And Dylan doing that song was like, he was probably going, ah, no, don't, no, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't stir the pooch. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. The thing about it for me is Ed Sullivan was the, was, was tofu in a Chinese soup.

[00:20:30] It took on the flavor of. I love this contrast. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But the thing of it is, is he was also almost, it is a stark contrast from the way he was behind the scenes, both in his personal life, but also in his, like we mentioned earlier with his entertainment savvy. He, he knew what was about to break before people knew it was about to break. Sweet.

[00:20:56] That's, and that, that showed him to be a visionary. Had he had some other contacts, he probably could have been a record producer. I could see him being a record, like a, oh, uh, the head of a label, you know, but. It's a shame that once his show got canceled and his wife died. Uh, you know, suddenly, I think it was a car crash, I think. No, no, no. Just natural causes.

[00:21:26] He died two years after. He kind of died. Forgotten. You know what I mean? It was 74 years old and his show. Yeah. It was like three years after his show got canceled and in 71. But. I have the interviews they did and we talked about the Beatles. He says, I was in Heathrow airport and I knew they were going to be big. And like, you could tell he's just not feeling well. You could tell he's just, you know, because he smoked like a chimney from what I understand.

[00:21:57] That's a shame. But with Ed Sullivan, it was always like, we saw the guy who was the. MC, but we also saw the guy behind the scenes, the guy who's planning everything out. The guy who's saying you get two minutes here. Cause the first time the show went on, everybody had 10 minutes. Six acts was an hour. Yeah. Then he had, then he had the order to scale himself down. And I had the acts scale down. So now you're going to go on, you're going to do, you know, two minutes here.

[00:22:26] You're going to do your, your thing's going to be eight minutes. You're going to be like, he would budget the time out for everybody. Hmm. And that's what made him such a good MC. That's a line producer right there. He had the guys around him who were helping him out going, okay, Ed, who should we have? When should we do this? When should we do it? When should we do that? Yeah. It was always, it was always planned out. It wasn't like some shows where you guys go on, you guys want, you know, he knew how to do it. Like with the Beatles, he had them twice.

[00:22:54] Once in the first half of the show and once in the second half of the show. He didn't put them on straight away. He let that build up. You got to remember, you know, it was that night. It was Tessie O'Shea, the cast of Oliver with Davy Jones in it. Oh, wow. Who else was there that night? I saw that the Beatles were on four different times. They definitely owe their career due to the British invasion phase. So.

[00:23:19] And with the Beatles, it was, he had them on, I think the end of the first half and then to close out the show. So. And with that, he kept everything building up to that point when they were going to premiere. He didn't put them off. You know, you would have blown your cookies the first time you kept, you kept it going. You know, you kept the, you kept everything back. You want to see those four guys? Okay. Wait till the end of the show. You know? And that's what. You know?

[00:23:50] So he starts off in the fifties. His actual, the broadcast studio finally gets the Ed Sullivan theater label in 67. And, you know, that's currently where Colbert, you know, films his show. But it's interesting how that's just the most common, just, you know, late night performing theater now.

[00:24:19] Isn't that the one that David Letterman took over? I think so. Right. Yep. It's holding theater. Yep. I saw some sitcoms that got in film there as well as CBS Playhouse. Pretty awesome. We'll return after these messages. If you like small town mystery, crazy news, and wild history, then the Florida Men on Florida Man podcast is for you.

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[00:25:13] On Brentfist with Brent Pope, I sit down with guests for the entertainment world and we do it all over breakfast. Or should I say Brentfist? Every week on Brentfist, you get inside Hollywood info and tips, great breakfast wrecks and booty debates. Most of all, you get the most delightful 30 minutes of your week. So dig in. It's Brentfist time. Listen at Brentfist.com, Apple Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are found. That thing about Sullivan, I always look at that night with the Beatles.

[00:25:42] Ed was already on top, but this put him on the mountaintop. Yeah. Then, you know, he had the R&B acts and all those guys, you know, all those people on. Glad is night. Yeah. Yeah. That pushed him. That pushed a lot of acts to, you know, white households, which was great because we were getting, a lot of those households were getting exposed to stuff they'd only heard on the radio.

[00:26:09] You got to remember at that time, it was still popping R&B. Nothing was combined yet. Yeah. You know. Unless you went to maybe a certain jukebox. You probably are going to hear that. 10,000 total performances and 1,045 hours archived.

[00:26:29] And, you know, him putting, you know, the stones on, you know, the, you know, him putting the love of the spoonful on, the birds, the doors, the band, you know. Great sound mixing, good camera angles too. Yeah. I remember it was doing the coverage compared to some of the other variety shows where they often would just sit still. You got to think, what were the other variety shows on at that time?

[00:26:58] Rask Music Hall, Hollywood Palace, right? You had Hullabaloo and Shindig, you know, which, you know, were not, were good, but not that good. You know. He just picks better guests and time. If you went to Ed Sullivan, you were, you know, you were there. You were, you were in that, in his domain.

[00:27:27] And you can either go up or go down. And a lot of 95, 99% of the time, everybody went up. I was just watching one today with Vanilla, a group called Vanilla Fudge, which I'd never heard of. Oh, God. Yeah, I know. I was just like, they were singing a Supreme song. It was called Keep Me Hanging On. And I was like, what the hell are these guys doing? Yeah. Someone understood it. You were bringing on the ratings, Gil.

[00:27:55] You look at Ed's face after they play, he's like, who the hell booked them? But then you look at the flip side, he has the Rascals on. Oh, God. And the Rascals were like, you know, high energy. You know, they did good loving on that show. And, you know, he was like, he was like, okay, I got them. I got them. I got, you know. The Mamas and the Papas were on that show. Oh, jeez. Yeah.

[00:28:23] Isn't that the one where the lady had an affair with someone else in the band and they broke up? No. What happened was- Isn't that every other band? I'm not sure. What happened was Michelle Phillips slept with Denny Doherty. Okay. She was married to John Phillips. John kicked her out of the band. They had a girl come in called Michelle Gibson, who was Lou Adler, the guy who owned ABC Dunhill Records. That was his girlfriend.

[00:28:53] So there's two album covers of one album cover. There's one with Michelle Phillips on it and one with Michelle Phillips and one with Gibson, the girl, Gibson girl, right? That's wild. She only was in there for like six to seven weeks and it was just like, all right, come on back in the band. Nobody's really liking what we're doing. But, um... What an awkward way to be reunited. You're back. She was like, oh, she was shot on to do acting, I think, didn't she?

[00:29:21] After they broke up, yeah, Michelle Phillips became an actress and so did Denny. John, unfortunately, you know, has problems and Cass died of a heart attack. Not choking on her. She was 30-something. Yeah. Man. She had crash dieted and it affected her voice and she was in Vegas and she couldn't sing.

[00:29:51] I thought I heard she got in her career, her solo career started before. I mean, I remember how long... 70, 1970s the career started. It's wild though that was kind of common nature. You were doing both acting and singing simultaneously and then you get to like the 70s and 80s and they kind of want you to pick a lane and stay in it. Who could... Who could... Now, we cannot go any further with Mama Cass without mentioning her fantastic performance

[00:30:19] on the new Scooby-Doo mystery movies. Yeah. With the candy bar. Holy shit. I would have slapped the guys that did that script if I was her. You know. And no one's getting paid except Mama Cass. Wow. Wow. I just... I just remember seeing that and going... You know, I saw her in real life. She was a beautiful woman in real life. You ever seen pictures of her? Oh. And she wasn't that heavy.

[00:30:49] You know. She wasn't like a stick figure. But, um... You know... The first thing that comes up is a 1986 interview. She almost looks like a lookalike of a Taylor Swift type. Who? Who, uh... Michelle. Oh, Michelle. Yeah. If it was Mama Cass interview in 86, that would be amazing. Well, Michelle Phillips, she had a daughter that joined the group Wilson Phillips, right? Yeah.

[00:31:20] Yeah. Chyna Phillips is her daughter. And then it's Wendy and Carney that are in that made that up. And then the funny thing is, the two boys were on the Unsullivan show, too. In fact... Right. One of the first public appearances, after they kind of had a little bit of a lull in their popularity, was they did good vibrations on the Sullivan show. Oh. And it's trippy to watch. It's a really good video, you know.

[00:31:50] It's cool. Yeah. I'm looking at other stuff with Michelle, and she does give me a Gillian Anderson kind of vibe. And... Yeah, she was... Way cuter smile. No. That's awesome. So... I feel like we've summed up so many things about this, but... So, you guys said you were able to watch clips on Pluto. I had no idea they had stuff on there.

[00:32:18] They've got groupings, and it's like performance groupings. They've even got them separated out. They have one whole episode dedicated to the Muppets. So, any appearances they made on the Ed Sullivan show were put together in one group. Yeah. And then you have like a listing of... Motown. Like comedians. His website has some clips, especially the Elvis ones and Supremes. And...

[00:32:45] I just saw a 2020 article in Rolling Stone saying that his entire catalog was hitting various streaming platforms. So, that's cool to know. So... Particularly the ones with the Beach Boys and Temptations. Well, my wife, when her mom was alive, used to listen to or used to watch the Ed Sullivan stuff on Pluto until she passed away. And... Yeah. My wife says, I really kind of enjoyed it. I want to continue doing it. And she says, well, we can do it today because I... You know, I'm going to be doing a podcast about it.

[00:33:15] Study in time. Yeah. And... And that... And to put sort of a bow on everything, we cannot... We really can't talk about Ed Sullivan... The Ed Sullivan show without looking at its cultural impact. It reached out into a lot of different areas. We already mentioned George Carlin. There was an Ed Sullivan reference in an episode of Rocky and Bullwinkle.

[00:33:39] And just different ways it permeated the time period, society, and even the way we look at entertainment shows today. Yeah. You look at a show like America's Got Talent. Or you look at something... And... Like American Idol. We like to see the performances. Mm-hmm. But we're also...

[00:34:06] But I think there's still something missing from the modern stuff. Mainly a lot of it being talent. But... Yeah. And they started doing the Spongebob gag. No talent. Nowadays, the entertainment is the lack of talent. Yeah. That or they go with the first name that generates money. But it doesn't mean it's going to be good. And it's like, well... But they don't even want to do this. But also they can't say no. So they're going to suck it up and do this stupid thing. I think Howard Stern said he was on America's Got Talent.

[00:34:34] And he's like, stupidest easy money ever made. He didn't even give a shit. Because there was no talent. Yeah. Exactly. I say the show America's Got Talent is America's Got Talent, but not that much. Oh. But... And... Going back to the impact... I mean, would we have an American Idol without something like an Ed Sullivan show? I don't... I'm not sure we could. We... There are elements of it that are still there. And I'm not...

[00:35:02] I'm not even sure if the producers of today's shows like that are even aware that it's there. They probably don't even know about it. They're just like, hey, Letterman, right? That's where it all begins. Well... No. Well, the way I see it is America's Got Talent and American Idol and all that can go back to a thing called FedMax Amateur Hour. No. And I shoot you up. This was an actual thing where he would have people come on and let's see how they scored.

[00:35:32] You know? And if they got... You know, they won a Buick if they got all the way up. You know? And then they advance each week. Sullivan... You can kind of look at, as I'm saying, the ring... You know, a circus. Okay? Here are the acts I have for you. This week it's... Okay, good. And I'm going to come out. I'm going to introduce you to the acts. I'm going to be like...

[00:36:00] You know, let's hear it for these young gentlemen here. You know? I hear people here. To him, being the guy who was the emcee, introducing the acts and saying, you know, can we have a fine hand for these young gentlemen? It's like he's saying, look, I'm putting these people on for your entertainment. Give them a hand. Give them a round of applause. I'm not asking you. I'm just asking you.

[00:36:28] They worked their tails off to get here. Can you say he kind of implemented the whole unwritten, like, courtesy, you know, studiousness? Kind of like on improv. Even if it doesn't work, you're still required to clap at the end of each session and then let the next performer go on stage. Yeah. Yeah. I'll take it a step further. I'll take it a step further. But I will say that the gong show is basically Ed Sullivan on cocaine.

[00:36:59] Yeah. Well, the guy... Literally on cocaine, if you know what I mean. I was going to say Chuck Berry. Yeah, he probably was. Chuck Berris? Oh, yeah. Berris. Yeah. Sorry. Chuck Berry might have tried with some cocaine, too. But I think he was more of a pothead. He probably was. Oh, it was probably some of the best, given his, you know, wallet. Yeah.

[00:37:28] And some of the things I've heard him do to people... Yep. All our heroes are bastards. You know. Yeah. Can't help but agree with you. But, like... Tom brought up this word, zeitgeist. Mm-hmm. And that's what it is with Sullivan. Exactly. His thing was to show the zeitgeist of American entertainment.

[00:37:59] What was hot. What was coming out. What was on its way up. What was... Okay, not relevant anymore, but... We'll put him on for old time's sake. Mm-hmm. He had a comedy act on called... Schuster... What was it called? Schuster? And... I forgot the other guy. They were on, like, 87 times.

[00:38:27] The most unfunny comedy act in the world. But he loved them. Yeah. Wayne and Schuster. That's what it was. Wayne and Schuster. And, you know, they were a Canadian comedy act. What the hell are they... No, I'm going to bring him on. Bring him on. You know. He'd have them on. And people would be, like, you know, kind of laughing, but not laughing. You know. He had... Charlie Brill and... What was your name?

[00:38:57] That gal. What? That gal. I'm just kidding. Charlie Brill and... Oh, shit, bro. Oh, yeah. Mitzi. Mitzi. Mitzi. Mitzi McAllen, Charlie Brill. Oh, okay. They were... Yeah. They were on the show. Like, a bunch of times. In fact, they were on the show the night the Beatles... The Beatles came on. Shit. You know, so... And I heard, like, Jenny Brill talk about it. Like, Mitzi McAllen...

[00:39:26] Or they talked about it. And they said, we didn't know what was going on. You know. It was just... All these people... Kids were screaming. We didn't know what the hell was going on. We did... And that was it. You know. But... You gotta think, too. He was... He was showing America... Okay, the cross... You know. I'm trying to put this in correct terms. But... He was just... He was changing with the times.

[00:39:57] He was always changing with the times. You know, that's the great thing about Sullivan. He was always changing. You know, if he saw changes in music... Bring him on. Let's see how they sound. We'll bring him on. Bring him on. Bring him on. You know. That's the great thing. I don't know. Oh, man. Well, he enjoyed what he was doing. He lived close to work. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't live far. He lived in a hotel, I think. Yeah. How many of us wouldn't pay to do that?

[00:40:26] Just go right across the street. You got a top... What was it? Like, top floor of a hotel or something like that? Mm-hmm. Or a couple rooms or something like that. You know. Him and Sylvia lived there. And then... He had a house in Connecticut, I think, too. Oh. I was asking my wife about that because I read about the hotel. She always said he didn't have a house. And she said, I don't think so. But I didn't know. His cancellation kind of was like... They were doing a thing

[00:40:55] where they were just canceling a lot of shows that were sponsored. I know he was sponsored by Ford. Mars or something like that. And... They just said... A lot of CBS said, we're done. You know, your show's over. You're not coming back for next season. Thank you. Bye. You know, they just dumped him on the side of the road. Yeah. Like you said before, it was a great start

[00:41:24] and then a very abrupt end where you're just like, what? Just like that? You're just being thrown out like garbage? I don't think they did the right thing in canceling him like that. At least have him go somewhere else. Like, hey, we'll give you a daytime show offer instead of, you know, out with the old... It was just a cold cancel because I didn't know if maybe he was getting ill or... Well, Joan Rivers said that

[00:41:54] he was starting to lose it a little bit. So, I think they were trying to lessen the blow a little bit by saying that's it because they were rumors going around and he was starting to slip a little bit mentally. I don't know how true it is, you know, coming from Joan Rivers. She'd been on the show, but she said, yeah, he was starting to, you know, forget things and stuff like that. Yeah. And, you know, when you're 70-something years old

[00:42:24] and you tend to start forgetting and you're in a business like that where you're an MC, you could say one thing and then something else happens or just like, oh, shit, you know. So, I think... Go ahead. Colin touched on this a little bit in his act. He talked about how it was canceled while it was in rerun so there really wasn't a final show to say thank you. And that's always stuck with me. That's always stuck with me that somebody

[00:42:54] who had that much reach, that much impact on so many generations never got a chance to officially say goodbye. No. Yeah. You know, I kind of see like Bill Paley going, well, we're canceling Ed Sullivan. You are? Yeah, why? Just feel like it's time. And even Sullivan said at some point he's like, I should have canceled the show like two or three years before

[00:43:24] because he felt like the show was just meandering like just on on the fumes so to speak. But I can see why a lot of the acts weren't going on anymore because, you know, there was not, you know, the rock and roll acts were now too busy for him or they'd broken up like the Beatles. So maybe it was just, you know, a part of the ways mutually. We don't know. That's wild.

[00:43:54] But you're right. There was no goodbye show. There was no final, you know, this is it folks. I'm done. Pow. You know, it was like Carol Burnett where Carol Burnett, you know, said goodbye to the camera and that was it. Yeah, it was just similar stuff nowadays where if something is. I would say Showtime would do that with some shows where they're like, hey, it's a half our shows are syndicated now to like Universal and Fox stations.

[00:44:24] Let's kill the show now and let them pick it up since we're not getting any subscribers. You see some streaming stations doing that going back and forth. Hey, is it currently, you know, airing reruns? Let's if not, let's pick it up and then kill it once it's back on regular TV. It's all these conflicts of interest that really don't need to exist, but they do. But that's wild. So he was already being syndicated and they just figured, hey, he'll live on

[00:44:53] for the entirety of the boob tube and we're just going to get rid of him because he's been on a decade. So let's, let's go. 23 years. Two, two decades. Wow. Okay. So shoot. I started 50. Was it 48? 48. 48. Man. That's it. He's there with Uncle Miltie. So it's like, you know, what do you, you know, you got two, you got two guys there, you know,

[00:45:23] it was him and it was Uncle Miltie, you know, which is not bad considering, you know, when here's a weird thing. My, my friend's aunt was in the audience the night the Beatles came to America. Oh, yeah. And I asked her when I was doing this, what was it like seeing the Beatles on the end cell phone? She said,

[00:45:52] I don't remember. I was deaf for two days. Have you guys ever watched that? The, the, the Ed Sullivan in the first appearance of the Beatles? I can't remember which one I've seen, but I have no doubt that it was blaring. Yeah. It, it, it was like, ladies and gentlemen, the Beatles! And there was a loud scream and it was, there, there are very few things I could, I can compare to that moment

[00:46:22] as far as just the sheer volume of ecstasy, for lack of a better term. Yeah. It had to be the equivalent. I just, I just love, you know, they're showing like all the names of the Beatles, like, you know, Paul, George, Ringo, John, and it cuts to John. Sorry, girls, he's married. Supposedly, Leonard was like pissed off about that, you know. Really? Yeah, because that was a big,

[00:46:51] big secret that him and Cynthia were married. And, the, the, the thing I kind of see as he comes out, he says, these reporters have never seen something like this before in their lives and so, you know, that you'll be entertained by these young men who call them Beatles? Once later, and then at the end of the set, he says, I just want you people to know that the Beatles received a telegram

[00:47:21] from Elvis and Colonel Tom Parker wishing them good luck. And I'm like thinking to myself, no, that's a telegram from Elvis saying, you MFers, you took my spotlight away from me. Wow. You know, so, yeah, because look at 1964, Elvis is making Acapulco, he, Acapulco, was it fun in Acapulco and, you know, they're basically just, you know, Elvis who, Elvis who, you know,

[00:47:53] I, I always remember hearing him not liking the Stones. Yeah, because Mick Jagger, same kind of deal as Jim Morrison, he was trying to get around the risque lyrics again and he's still just waving his finger at him saying, don't do it, don't do it, oh, you just did it, I hate you forever. So, I have no doubt that from an artist's perspective, he probably came off as an asshole, but from a, host, I would like to think that given

[00:48:22] what we see, the cameras just love him. Well, the thing is, even like the Stones because they were scruffy. Remember, they were the opposite of the Beatles. So, they come on, they come on, they meet, you know, Ed's like going, who are these guys? They're the wrong stars. Who are these guys? Get them out of here. Come and get a haircut, you know. So, he's definitely old school kind of guy. Supposedly, when they were going to do what,

[00:48:52] spend the night together and he told them not to do it, they came back like 10 minutes later or an hour later dressed in like Nazi outfits to piss them off. Oh. Oh. Yikes. That's supposedly a rumor. But, Jack, Jagger said, okay, look, let's spend some time together because the girls are going to be screaming and you know, all that. And Jagger's like,

[00:49:21] let's spend some night and you said, let's spend the night together. Kind of went under the, you know, over the heads, you know, he's rolling his eyes as he's singing the song. It's just, it's hilarious to watch. But, that's wild. Yeah, Jim Morrison had a line, there was something he said at the end when like, Sullivan was saying, you're not going to be on my show again. He says, I just did it. Right. Right, right.

[00:49:52] The total, just passive aggressive is like, hey, I told, I already owned you so don't bother. Ray Manzarek said it was, they got backstage and the guy who was the stage manager was, Ed was out of sight. Ed was out of sight. I think he might have said something in the series and said, you know, you guys blew it. You guys, we were going to have you on for five more shows and you guys just blew it and we're never hanging out here yet. And Morrison said, Gil,

[00:50:22] man, we just did the Ed Sullivan show and he walked off. That's all we need. I don't have to hear it. Love it. Love these rebels. Oh, this has been a delight. All, I think we pretty much just summed up some of the highlights we've shown where people can find it. That's cool to know it's on Pluto now. And anyone who doesn't know, literally ask, ask your aunts and uncles,

[00:50:52] grandparents if they're still with you. Just sit down, watch it. It's very accessible even today. It's a good trip back in time. It really is rewarding. It's a good time capsule. Yeah. Total time capsule. Yeah. It's a history lesson. It really is a history lesson. Yeah. When the show ended, I was like 20 days away from turning four. So I- Man.

[00:51:23] I wasn't even born yet. My mother and my father would talk about Ed Sullivan. Like, do you remember that comic being on Ed Sullivan? Yeah, yeah, I remember. Yeah, you know. He had like, like my dad. I gotta thank my dad for telling me about Will Jordan. Because I got to see Will Jordan on video due to Sullivan. And then I saw Jackie Mason do, you know, Sullivan. Jackie Mason Sullivan was him

[00:51:52] with him putting the hand under the chin and just like, like, kind of staggering back and forth on stage. because he says, that's what Sullivan was. He just, and the thing I gotta say is when I look at Sullivan on stage, when he's out there, he's looking at that audience going, I got you. Come on in. Sit down. Let's watch some stuff. You know,

[00:52:22] definitely a good job by Will Jordan in doing all those impressions of Ed earlier. Thank you all. That was a quick and fun to the point kind of retro trip. Follow us on the web on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. The podcast is available on Podbean, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Anchor, Apple, and anywhere else podcasts are available. Feel free to review

[00:52:52] our show and leave comments on any of those sites. Thanks a million for listening.