Best Moments on Ray Donovan

[00:00:00] This podcast is a production of Unfiltered Studios. If you would like to know more about joining Unfiltered Studios, please visit our website at unfpod.com for more information. Thanks once again for joining us. We every once in a while do a re-edit and I can't expect everybody to do the same chat all over again or different crowd and recording times are always tight for us podcasters in our busy personal lives.

[00:00:27] So I decided how about we take this earlier chat, which we did on Showtime's seven season run of Ray Donovan, which is a fun fixer in L.A. having to get past his mobster family, as well as all these other shady criminal underworlds that threaten to undo him.

[00:00:46] If you want to hear the chat, you can go to earlier in our docket. But here for this chat, we're cutting to the nuts and bolts. We're cutting to our favorite moments. So enjoy this re-edit. Hello. I tell you something I did. Ray? Something bad. Last week. She runs down hell. Father to son. Father to daughter.

[00:01:15] It's by a reason that he is the way that he is. I'm having a fire sale. 20 a mil. He's not going up there for the money. He's going to kill Mickey. Yes, man.

[00:01:31] What did you do? I let go over.

[00:02:41] Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Cam. We are here for another free-flowing chat on another complex TV epic. Returning to the show, who was she? We got Tara Jabari. Welcome. Hello. Hello. Introducing to the show, Katie Gilson. Gretchen, how are you? Hello, how are you? Never been better. Formerly of Screen Junkies. And now on Twitch, Hal Redneck is here. Thanks for having me, Cam. And I might have to break out a Boston accent on occasion. Yeah, a Boston accent. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, Doug.

[00:03:11] Oh, yeah. Going to Pac-D-Con. Have it yet? That should be a requirement. Go Sox. Go Sox. That was actually one of my favorite parts of the show is the Bostonian accents. Bostonian accents. I mean, we could order Boston Market, but that's not the same. Absolutely not. Fixers in movie history from Pulp Fiction. Oh, man. Fixer versus Fixer. Yeah. Yeah. A thousand percent.

[00:03:41] I could see this crossing over with all sorts of Tarantino or David Iyer training day type stuff. Half the crew of like that. It's a symbol. Like I was already. I mean, obviously, this owes a lot to any other post Breaking Bad Sopranos show, but I was even getting shades of the shield or prison break. Yeah. Obviously, we got other similar shows that are on now, like the Yellowstone and Power franchises.

[00:04:06] Those are good examples of how like they show how pretty much every aspect of society, like everyone's hypocrisy comes to full ugly light. Yeah. Maybe a little Bosch in there as well. Bosch is a very good sample because like everyone was looking at that and just saying, oh, it's going to be another procedural. It's like, no, it's got so many layers on how the modus operandi of the LAPD works, how the main character later becomes a private eye. And everyone's just looking at each other like you betrayed me.

[00:04:35] I'm like, no, I'm doing my job. Does anyone here a Peaky Blinders fan? The Peaky Blinders is a wonderful example, Katie. I have not seen the other seasons. There were a lot of parallels. I'm very upset because it was just the last season of it and no, it's, I just feel like it's phenomenal. Season four or five? Six. Six. See, that was another one. They're really short. There's only six episodes, but no Emmy nominations. Yeah.

[00:05:03] And it's like the company and distribution platforms kept screwing it up and everyone, it was kind of like Luther where everyone is like major movie star trying to schedule around a show. And even though they're doing four episodes, it's just like making the time as a near impossible. It's just like, geez. So they made it. And then just as everyone, they got their audience, they had to stall filming. And it's like, man, I thought it was canceled for the longest time before Netflix brought it up. Well, it was like a two year hiatus before the final season.

[00:05:33] But there were a number of parallels, one of which was the lack of awards. So Ray Donovan, I think John Voight was the only one. Yeah, I didn't see much. The cinematography got a lot of accolades, but it was over in Canada. Yeah, I mean, there were a number of nominations, but no Emmys. Or no, wait, the only person that got an Emmy was a guest star. I think it was Hank Azaria.

[00:06:02] And I honestly don't even remember which character he played. He was the crooked former FBI head who later becomes like a shady. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But John Voight did win a Golden Globe. But other than that, I mean, it was the shout out. I remember Liam Shriver was saying he always wanted one of his kids to be his date at the Emmys. And because you did get nominated like almost every year. And they're like, don't worry, he'll never win. He won't win. So they wouldn't feel bad if they said no to being his date.

[00:06:32] We mentioned this a lot in the Power TV franchise where we kind of got a sense that because the show brings so many truths kind of delight. That it just wasn't ever going to be an Emmy favorite. Because, I mean, Power is such a big show and there's no denying it. Like it's ever even multiracial appeal.

[00:06:53] And yet because there's either just a bizarre jury or what have you or they just hate how it's going into uncomfortable levels on society and the political structure within that. I think a lot of the same is kind of can be said about this. I think it might be a little bit of that.

[00:07:11] But I also think, you know, Ray Donovan, it strikes me a little bit more as just slightly more of a comfort food kind of show as opposed to the prestige kind of show. Like, you know, there's a difference between Ray Donovan and a Mad Men or a Succession or something like that. I don't think it quite rises to the quality.

[00:07:32] I mean, it's a hell of a fun watch, but I feel like it's a little bit more of a meat and potatoes, like just kick ass kind of show as opposed to, you know, the especially in the later seasons. That's a good way of putting it. Quality dips. A little bit. Other people would go. Other people would go to levels to say it's an action show, even though IMDb doesn't want to listen to Ascension is like there are some.

[00:07:59] I mean, we'll get into the writing and everything and just like which ones are written better, which subplots kind of go nowhere. And it does seem like a lot of shows like these. I mean, I think you are right, because like Succession is definitely one of those shows I would never want to rewatch it. But at the same time, it definitely blows my mind every episode. So I think you could definitely give more accolades to the writing on that. Or even Breaking Bad. Yeah. Right.

[00:08:27] You know, like Breaking Bad is I was I just had COVID and I was sick and I there was a Breaking Bad marathon on and I was watching it. And I was and I was just marveling about how damn good the run up to the end was. And I was like comparing it in my mind to Game of Thrones with how disappointing the last season and a half or so were.

[00:08:51] But thinking about Ray Donovan in comparison, like, you know, it just it seemed like a little bit of a rudderless ship towards the end. And I had much more characters and different. You have his clients. Then you have four siblings for right, including the half sibling. Yeah. And the kids. Then the while Breaking Bad or Succession a little bit closer. So you're not all over the place.

[00:09:20] It's in that sense. It's a little bit like Game of Thrones. You're like, which storyline is Hank Azari a part of again? You know. Endless guest stars and recurrence. While I agree with like the quality of the show and while it wouldn't have won maybe best show or a writing award or something. The acting was phenomenal. Phenomenal, in my opinion. And yeah. Don't get me wrong. I yeah.

[00:09:46] There's going to be some annoying characters on here, but I can't at all say that any of them gave a bad. Oh, yes. But yeah, I'm not. I can't say Terry. Terry and definitely Bunchy. Oh, my God. But I can't say that any of them are bad actors. Not not even close. And they're annoying. But I think there's like in their own way, I guess I came around to them in that their characters were so fully developed that, you know, like real. They're they're real people like Bunchy's annoying.

[00:10:16] He's kind of supposed to be Terry. I just thought they did a really good job. Yeah. Yeah. And you could tell like every each brother was flawed in his own way. Yeah. And none of them look alike, but you don't question that they're related. And notice how we're all good with our words. None of these people are good at talking to each other. You know, especially as the initially and they communicate with their fists.

[00:10:43] And the more they're around each other, the more they want to be sheltered and be like, just, you know, lock themselves in the room. Just go away until it's time to eat and go to work. This is like so. I mean, I do like how I will give the show especially points for how it later even tackles mental health near the end. Because, I mean, it's we're still just finding every day and week just people who have had just kind of midlife crisis.

[00:11:07] But it was more than just that, you know, just they they could not physically just admit what was a big issue in their lives growing up. Because we kind of just find that so many of us kind of have a robotic upbringing at times where it's just like, just, you know, do good in school. Get a great job. Get married. Have a family. And it's like this show definitely, I think, hits home on just unrealized potential.

[00:11:33] And yeah, and just how everyone wants to deal with their job. And in this case, we have characters who have had basically just never really had a great chance. And there's just still trying to find some kind of light at the end of the tunnel. So, yeah, the brothers are Terry and Bunchy. Pooch Hall, the sitcom guy, plays Daryl. He's basically the half brother. John Voight plays Mickey, the strange mob boss dad.

[00:12:01] And Susan Sarandon is the powerful Hollywood producer who also has a bunch of tragedies that she reveals. The crew of Ray is none other than Lena, played by Catherine Moaning of The L Word, and Avi, played by Stephen Bauer of Breaking Bad and Scarface Fang. Oh, I like when I saw that Stephen Bauer was in this, I'm like, I would watch it just for him. It's great. He's great. Also, he's very handsome still.

[00:12:32] Yeah, he's gone through a lot. And I still see a bit of his youthful face at times, even though he did have to be- Aging like a fine wine. Aging like a fine wine. It took me a while. It was like season five where I'm like, oh my God, it's the guy from Scarface. Scarface? No. Was he a boxer or something? Because it's not just surgery. Because he has had work done, but that was why it took me a while to realize- He's Cuban born, apparently.

[00:12:59] But yeah, he is one of those, kind of like Martin Sheen in a way, because of just how light tan he is. You kind of do forget, oh, he is kind of mixed and you don't always just- He doesn't have, and I say this carefully, just kind of the general Latino look that just like, oh, dead giveaway. It's obviously the Mediterranean look to him. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:26] And I am glad that he's been able to kind of, however he comes about these actions, to do kind of- I mean, here he's playing ex-Mossad agent. So, you know, he's implied as being Israeli. And this is definitely a good demo reel. I mean, looking at all the guest stars, but like, even as I was watching the movies, I annoy anyone who I'm watching TV with, because they think I'm playing around on Instagram, when really I'm taking notes, because, you know, there's only so much time in a day.

[00:13:53] And I just sometimes, I want to remember what was a kick-ass plot twist or an amazing one-liner. Where was it said? And pretty much recognized a bunch of the key guest stars and from other things. So, Anne Biderman, who exited the show after about the second season, was the Emmy-winning writer on NYPD Blue and later created Southland for NBC and later TNT.

[00:14:19] And that this was her venture into Showtime to do kind of her take on just showing, again, just this unethical lifestyle that basically this troubled reuniting family is facing.

[00:14:33] And the first five seasons are set in L.A., the first three mainly deal with just everything from power brokers to unethical movie producers to FBI and LAPD trying to target the Donovan family after finding them attached to so many questionable, you know, overdoses and crimes.

[00:14:52] And basically from there, you know, season four and five deal with just everything from casino owners to other mobsters. You know, we're talking even just, you know, Russians and other people entering the deal. Season four is my personal favorite. Yeah, I'll definitely venture on that one too.

[00:15:15] And the final six and seven seasons deal with a very unexpected move to Staten Island where Rey is now in hot water with not only a giant NYPD manhunt and a bunch of utter corruption, but also some, a giant power play between two up and coming senators running as governors. It is kind of interesting.

[00:15:40] I have seen a lot of hate for season four and yet I really dug that season a lot. I had my issues with season five and I think they're all worth very checking out. But by season six, there were so many segments with the brothers, Terry and Bucci, where I'm like, please fast forward. I get that we need these moments, but they're just elongating. And it just kind of was kind of almost a Game of Thrones moment where I'm like, I feel like you're just trying to get to 40 minutes when really this could have been wrapped up free episode.

[00:16:11] I'm curious. I'm curious because both Tara and Cam, you both mentioned those two brothers, but you're not so much caring for them. I'm curious. They're great actors. And I do like, especially how Bunchy finds like a life with the luchador gal. Yeah. Played by Elisa Diaz. It doesn't last. It doesn't last. And I just hated how he's such a dick to her. It's like, she's my property, but oh, I got no one to care for my kid. It was like, well, what the hell, dude?

[00:16:44] Oh, man. He was the harder one. I do like Terry the most out of all of them because, but the actor, I was like, God, he must have had a lot of physical therapy because he played so well. He plays it so believably. His hands are shaking. It gets worse. Oh, yeah. Then it goes worse. And I don't know how he did it.

[00:17:06] And sadly, when you see Alan Alda in later seasons, you can tell he must have Parkinson's or something. Yeah. Because his hands are very shaky. Alan Alda, one of the great TV actors. They do try to hide it, but there are a few angles where it's like, I feel like that line was 80 yards in after the fact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, or just like a palsy of sorts. We've seen too many movies.

[00:17:32] So after a while, you know, we will see, you know, lips not moving in the back or something that seems like a reshoot. And Terry never really gets his happy ending. He does sort of, I can't remember. It does get annoying how he is the first fall guy half the time. He is almost all. Does anybody have a happy ending? I think that's part of it, right? Like none of them. Well, Connor, he gets to go in the army. You're right.

[00:17:59] It's the only thing that makes sense for him, especially when he gets all snobby and annoying to his dad. Oh, Connor was my least favorite. Oh, man. I was in this little shit. The kids really drove me nuts at first, but I grew to really like them as they got older. And in fact, Bridget really grew on me. Her full circle. Bridget is good, but man, does she have terrible taste in boys. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, well, that's pretty simple. Smitty and her rapper boyfriend. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah.

[00:18:27] I was just like, Smitty, you are a dipshit. You're a dipshit. You should never go anywhere. Oh, and a teacher. I remember that. And I'm like, how is she? I forgot about the teacher, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. I mean, yeah, that guy was like the sleaze. And at the same time, I mean, it's just a good way to build conflict because anytime that they reprimand their kids, they're always going to say, but you've done something illegal at work the other day. Yeah.

[00:18:57] And it's like, Mom, you sleep with every other crooked cop. It's funny because it's like they're trying to hide a dead body and Connor's completely clueless. It's one of the funniest scenes in the show. Is it season four or five when there's a break in in like the premiere? Oh, yeah. Or because I watch that season a lot. Because I really like the storyline with Ismael Cruz Cordova.

[00:19:23] I really dug that because we don't talk enough about how, I mean, it kind of needed to go there. Because like in many ways, how these fixers are basically kind of unleashed, you know, dogs, you know, just doing something illegal. And they're almost like spies and assassins in a way where, you know, you're fine.

[00:19:40] But if you get caught, you know, we're not going to bust you out, you know, unless we pick a friend of a friend of a friend with connections to blackmail these governors who are posing this, you know, FBI investigation for ratings. And at the same time, you know, even though they're not NSA, it is interesting seeing how, again, boxers are very much the same thing. You know, just terrible insurance. Don't have a good upbringing. Take advantage of by their, you know, misogynistic managers.

[00:20:09] And in this case, you know, he's had a relationship with his half-sister and she's raped by him. Yeah, great, great casting on that. I saw so many famous names attached to this show before I even got into it. And it's like, whoa, wait, whoa. Literally everyone's in it. What happened that I liked it and I was doing a little bit of research when the show was coming on as it was going on live.

[00:20:34] But also for this preparation and as each season almost always has at least two or three other storylines other than the main characters, right? Like a client or something. A thousand percent. And the creators of the show and the directors and the writers, they're like, Lisa and Ismail took it upon themselves to meet up privately and have a whole backstory of them growing up. Dad's doing your homework.

[00:21:02] When did they first cross that line? It definitely felt like more. You don't need to do that. And they're like, yes, we do. And I'm like, I think it works because it's my go-to season to see how broken. I was like, I feel like they're the only other family that is as broken as the Donovans. Yeah, that's very true. More so than the Britney Spears character that's in the first couple of seasons. You know, I didn't think of that.

[00:21:31] I was thinking of so many other similar starlets, but that's a good point. The Natalie James actress character. Not a bunch of other people, but just of... Who do you think Jay White, the guy who accidentally, like, kills his sensei while he's prepping for a martial arts movie? Do you think that's based off Katie's favorite Michael B. Jordan or is that someone else? Who could that be based off of? Because it seems like... Oh, maybe Wesley Snipes and Blade.

[00:21:59] It may very well be because, like, you've always heard all these stories about all these impossible guys who they're great if you cater to their ego. But at the same time, like, it's so funny seeing at that time when Daryl decides, you know, to buy his dad's, you know, script. And then he cuts his dad out of it because his dad's, you know, the biggest racist on the planet. Hey, I love my boys, but that guy's a... I was like, shut the fuck up. We're not making your Brooklyn screenplay.

[00:22:29] It's becoming a blaxploitation, you know, type tribute movie. And it's just so funny. That was good casting, having Turk from Scrubs, Donald Faison as the producer. He's like, come on, man. You got to play the game. You got to be on their level. And it's so funny how he's just kind of trying to be a good person, but he's just wimpy most of the time until he's asked to basically, you know, help murder people along with Bucci and Ray and company. And it's just so funny how he's just like... It is kind of one of those things.

[00:22:58] It goes back to even the first rule of directing. If you want people to follow your lead, people love it because it's a more humanistic drama. It's not a, you know, just, you know, who whacks who, you know, just bottom of the barrel mafia movie. It's in many ways, this is pretty much just how much baggage can you deal with before you break? That's pretty much what this is.

[00:23:20] I think you really were touching on something important in regards to the show earlier, Cam, when you were talking about how it portrays mental health. Yes. And the, it really resonates. And as everyone, as Katie and Tara were talking about the kids with Bridget and Connor, and it's been passed, it's generational trauma. Yeah.

[00:23:49] It starts with Jon Voight. It goes to the brothers. And then Ray, like it or not, has passed down this horrific trauma to the kids. And the kids have seen all this. And I think it's actually much more than I may have even given it credit for. Like there's a level of depth to the, the way it portrays trauma being passed down in families. Oh, a thousand percent. Like we kind of see. Right.

[00:24:17] Like we, we always thought it was just a Bunchie that was abused by the priest. And then. And as it goes on, it's like. He tried it with Terry. Couldn't do it. Right. And it was Ray. Ray. And that Mickey said, shut up. It's not true. Ray said something. And it wasn't. Well, it's significant. So they all have this shared trauma in multiple ways. And isn't that wild? When they. Abuse. It's their family life. It's the, you know, they were.

[00:24:47] Oh, yeah. And your dad is your dad's like, you know, beating up people for the mob and selling coke and what. Like, yeah, you're going to. That's going to. The one person that they could trust. He was Bridget, the sister that we know died around trauma. We had our own trauma. At first, you don't know what the vision is. And he was raping my sister and caused her to.

[00:25:15] There's just so much. So they have that shared, which brings some closer as brothers. But then they also. It's like it. It comes out. In all of them, but in very different ways. You know, when they get to the Sullivan's. Oh, man. And Ray's admitting, hey, you were my child's, you know, childhood crush. You know, that's so wild when he didn't questions their mafia dad. He's already having to deal with their mobster brother who's trying to instigate a gang war and doesn't like any of the other guys very much.

[00:25:45] But yeah, when Ray comforts James and he's like, did you lay a hand on my dead sister? And he doesn't even wait for the answer. He just flat out just splats his head. Yeah, love it. But yeah, Ray becomes his father who he hates. It does get annoying. He's like, masculine. And Bunchy's a mess. And Terry's also a mess because of his dad. And yeah, so there's that. And then to your point about the realism, that is part of it.

[00:26:12] It showcases how a real family that is, you know, and very few families are perfect. Most families have some dysfunction. I would imagine just not to that level, probably. Let's hope not. But yeah, everyone had something done. For that many illegal activities. We had our quirks. We had our perfections and imperfections. But yeah, when it gets to where is this like, just don't bother having a birthday party because I know it's going to be the worst fucking day of my life. Oh my gosh, not terrible. But the way they look as well.

[00:26:40] The casting, I think like, I'll be honest. Fucking Gould as Ezra, his main client. And Dean Crosby from freaking Star Trek and Pet Sematary. It's so wild. At first, we don't even realize, like you guys mentioned in season five, it's like, oh, but the wife of the family, Abby, has passed away. At first, it takes us a while to realize. It's like, what's Ray remembering? Oh, oh, oh, oh, wow. Oh, all this trauma back and forth. And now he can't even bear to look at the house.

[00:27:09] Even though he kills for a living, this is way too close to home. And he's telling Deb, it's like, hey, I did everything I could for your late husband. Just do me this one last favor. Sell this house. Don't care what the price is. Just get it out of here so I don't have to look at it anymore. You guys also appreciate that they looked like real humans. Like they weren't all these perfect looking actors. Even the recurring guys who, you know, we just think are just so scum.

[00:27:38] It's just like they, like you say, I mean, I'm so glad you did that background on the season four main storyline, Tara, because that does really feel all these actors feel like they did their homework. It's not just the fact that they're veterans who've been acting for years and all other sorts of edgy shows. Yeah, I tried to find it. And I remember when they were going to do a season like premiere season one of Ray Donovan. I think it was Anne. Anne Biderman. Yeah. The main writer.

[00:28:06] She was saying, I knew I wanted to make this. I think it was her. So I knew I wanted to make this show, but I did not want the like the the manscaping perfect looking specimen. We needed a rugged person that you were kind of scared of if he was walking down the street. And the only one I could think of was Leo Schreiber. Nice. Who has that rugged masculinity. I mean, I have a crush on him. I ain't gonna lie.

[00:28:34] I've seen him in so many different movies. And also, he's not the handsome, you know, he's not. Yeah. He's not the typical everyday kind. And so I had the same thought, Tara, that he is sexy, but not in your typical way. You know, a thousand percent. But yeah, he but he does know how to wear a suit, though. If he makes me want to step up my wardrobe game a little bit.

[00:29:03] And he does all that fighting in his white shirts. Yes. Always a white shirt, white shirt, dark suit. That's his uniform. Right. The boxers are like these athletes will not look great after decades of fighting and being used so much and stuff like that. They did a great job with that. He's been a good actor in any kind of movie, regardless of whether it was poorly made or not.

[00:29:32] He's kind of one of those. He all these actors, I definitely can guarantee you just they were casted based on they will do a backstory for their character. And like literally, I was watching the movie before we came on the podcast today. Oh, nice. You have it fresh, but that's just a little bit. But the old episodes, man, they all kind of run together for me. I love them, but they I need to do a refresher. One of these.

[00:30:00] I there's been so many other great shows like Homicide 24 and Babylon 5 and even freaking Deadwood that had a good movie wrap up. Yeah, it absolutely reminded me of the Deadwood movie wrap up. I think it even might have had one of the same filmmakers. But you should have seen me. I'm just like trying to hold back tears is like here's this giant scumbag. And, you know, senior finally gets it. So poetic. Yeah. So poetic.

[00:30:27] Oh, and the Bridget like the like, oh, she's become right now. That's what took me out of it. I was like, whoa, where'd she come from? And then I see Bucci coming. I'm like, oh, that's right. They were heading there. But it took me a minute. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Where the hell did she come from with a gun? And they were saying they were going to have a season eight and that was going to be the final season. And it just got canceled. So then they're like, I mean, if the fans really want it, we'll make it into a film.

[00:30:56] And what a twist. Because like Ray knew his dad was a scumbag hanging out, giving advice on mafia pictures in the 70s. And then seeing him cover up for another wannabe actor who's a rising star. And then he's like, so I framed my dad. I did pretty much as bad a crime to him as he did to, you know, all these other people. Brutal. His own children. I mean. His own children. I don't blame Ray for a second. One of my complaints.

[00:31:26] One of my few complaints. I'm a little all over the place because I have comments about the movie and comments about the show. But one of my only complaints about the show is that. Two. One. And they're both with Ray, actually. I got annoyed after a while. I'm like. Just let it out, Ray. Is there a single woman that he is incapable of not sleeping with? Like it got old. I got annoyed by that too. Predictable. I'm like, can he just not sleep with this one? Like he's incapable. And it was predictable to me.

[00:31:56] So that was annoying. And then. And they kind of abandoned it after season two. You're like, no, no, no. No, I know. I know. If you're going to spy on your wife, then don't be going around doing the same thing too. Because like power did similar stuff, but they always acknowledged, hey, we're in this to win it. So we're sticking together as a crime family. And we might get promiscuous on the side. It's like, okay, cool. So. Yeah. In that world, it's seemingly okay for men to do it, but not the women, which is. That's a whole nother show. Yeah.

[00:32:25] And I like how it does not slut shame anyone. You can tell that there's a diversity in the writer's room and everything, especially when they're bringing up all these taboo subjects and everything. It's like, it felt like they were very careful at just wording this.

[00:32:39] Because I mean, we're going into even just almost all the clients are like A-list turned D-list actors who are working on professional film sets or dealing with mobsters who happen to also be movie producers or tabloid, you know, creators. It does bring a sense of like, it does make you wonder how much of the real story do we get of a famous person? You know?

[00:33:04] I think Katie, you make a great point in regards to like, you know, Ray goes around and he bangs a lot of chicks. And that I feel like that is a strike slightly against the show that it lowers the show a little bit more to like guy fantasy stuff. I really did. Yeah. I'm living vicariously through this character. He kicks ass. He gets dames or whatever.

[00:33:34] I just became a 1950s man. Hey, walk in here. Yeah. But like it, I feel like that's not necessary. I don't need to see the protagonist like, you know, have sex with every attractive woman that enters the plot, you know? But he becomes his dad. Like that's, I think there's irony in that his dad was the same way and he hates his dad for all of it. And sorry, I think I cut over Tara.

[00:34:03] Katie, you had a second point that you didn't like. Oh, the, regarding Mickey. So listen, I am not a fan of John Boyd, but I thought that he was so good as Mickey, the charming criminal. I mean, I really liked him. I really was like, I was. And so I thought Ray was a little, I'm like, come on, Ray, like give him an inch, but he would never. They take a while. This is children.

[00:34:32] I was like, oh my God, somebody kill him right now. They really do take a while. It's like, okay, you know, he's not going to be killed, even though Ray so wants to kill him right now. And they fixed it in season two, but like Hall did hit on, it does get annoying when the show does kind of seem to want to cater to, hey, we're on premium channels. No one has to tell us what we can or can't air, but it did get it. I really hated in season five when they have that subplot with the boner pills.

[00:34:59] And I was just like, it doesn't contribute anything. And like you say, much like the adultery, there are a few subplots that go absolutely nowhere. It's just like, okay. Like, cause like you guys mentioned, it was great seeing Hank Azaria because it was part of the whole, hey, cool scene, a comedian doing a dramatic work. You know, Cochran was interesting. He's literally blackmailing all his agents and basically pulling other illegal favors.

[00:35:27] And then he still doesn't become the head FBI guy because of all his other baggage. And then he's back here. And like you guys say, it's funny seeing a guy who was supposedly legit at one point now being a crappy, you know, journalist and investigator. And then still, you know, that all backfires. And did you guys expect any of these other guest stars? Like I did not expect Mike Hammer himself, Stacey Keats to be the Texan, you know, Tom. Oh yeah.

[00:35:55] I was like, whoa, so Ray had an actual assassin mentor. Okay, interesting. And then that whole. Do some Sarandon. I mean, there were some pretty heavy hitters. Yeah. And that was my utter complaint. When they first introduced her, I was like, I want to see more of her. But then her first few scenes, I didn't learn shit.

[00:36:15] And then by episode three, I think of five, then we're like, okay, so the reason she's this strong, hard person is because she feels responsible for like causing a death of her kid or some crazy shit. And then now, then we finally get to see the goods. But I do feel like Lena and Avi kind of keep it together.

[00:36:35] Like they, much like any of these Hardin characters, you guys brought up some good stuff like Blade and even Jack Bauer is like all these other characters pretty much bring out the, like you say, what the character can't speak. You know, Lena and Avi pretty much are always saying, you know, you're a hard ass or you're a prick sometimes. Can you please talk to us? I miss that dynamic of them in that agency. Yes.

[00:37:00] Avi apparently, Steven Bauer, the betrayer, apparently he was coming to set late and holding up filming and ties a kite and pooch all. Oh, I don't want to hear that. Oh, no, no. That's interesting. I've heard he can be difficult to work with. That was sad when he left. I know. It was so ideal. And you kind of wanted a follow up is like, in fact, my secretly, I would rather they actually go to Israel or something. It's like, hey, they killed Avi. Avi, we got to avenge him.

[00:37:30] You know, some shit like that. Avi and Lena were highlights. I really liked those two. Oh, yeah. That's a good one. You've never seen her. She had the best comebacks. She was the only one who could really talk back at him. Yeah. Good point. Kudos to the staging of these scenes. Because like when Lena and Ray walk into a scene, they're not in slow motion or anything. It's like they're walking like everyday average Joes. Even though they're wearing a suit, they even take a while to kind of struggle to get their gun when they're in a good fight. And so I do like that.

[00:37:59] It isn't John Wick where hyper over stylized and in on the joke, but still unrealistic. And it's like, no, that this is embracing the implausibilities. But it's also showing that they still got some perks. They're still going to bleed out. And they always look slightly different. Back to like Katie's comment of like, these characters don't look like what. Exactly. Even the women.

[00:38:23] But there's a part, and I think maybe in season one when Abby is just like looking at a house and all these other Calabasas moms and stuff. Abby has nothing to do. So she is looking for that thing. And it's like Ray made her happy at one point. And then when he's at the office all day, then the kudos to the writers. She didn't become a plot device after a while. She didn't become someone who was there to just be a whiner. And like you say.

[00:38:53] I loved her and Terry's relationship. That was a fun twist. It's like, well, I'm sorry. She might be my stepbrother technically. But it was just a sweet. And just like Lena is not the way that she would be able to get inside, you know, like a hotel or something like to fix the problem. She's used to it. And I love how she does roast race.

[00:39:18] You don't think that a person like that, because she looks so distinct, but she doesn't get away with everything. She calls in favors from her various girlfriends. And I like how they also, it's like, one kind of, like you mentioned how there are a few missed opportunities. I really wish they could have hit more on Ray's like firm. Because like a day, they're like, it's a part flower shop, part fixer firm. But you literally forget that by season two.

[00:39:45] And it goes back to, oh, the boxing ring. We're having less income. And it's like, and they get all distracted with, oh, well, someone's got to pay for it. So we've got to pressure Bunchy or Terry to be in charge of it because who else is going to run it, even though they don't want to teach boxing anymore. But I do love how, yeah, Lena every once in a while is like, she flat out just roasts right. It's like, we're going to shake on this. But the minute I'm your receptionist again, oh, go fuck yourself. So I'm not doing this.

[00:40:12] One thing that, one thing on the show that I found to be sadly very inaccurate was when there are seasons in Los Angeles, the amount of time it takes Ray to drive anywhere is way too quick. Yeah, they took some very free license with that after a while. Of course, of course. Dude gets from like the west side to like Calipas. I'll be over there in a minute. East side to, yeah, Culver City so fast. I'm like, never.

[00:40:42] Not even on like a Sunday morning. Are you going to zoom over that fast? It's going into the guy's fantasy. And it's like, this is not a game like Grand Theft Auto. This isn't go around free Roman. Unless, yeah, unless Ray knows the port. Finding parking. I didn't know the damn building. Same in New York. They zip around. I was like, you take the subway bullshit you're taking. Yeah, because like with Sam producer, you know, it makes sense. She's powerful enough. They've established people fear her. All kinds of people fear her.

[00:41:12] So she can call in all favors. Yeah, I'll blackmail the doctor to, you know, perform an illegal surgery on Bridget's, you know, stupid boyfriend. But yeah. But yeah, like you say, with the travel is like they make use of it at first, kind of just showing how just Ray's at his best. When he does it, he's just at himself, you know, and he can just watch the beautiful skies. But then after a while, it's back and forth, back and forth. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[00:41:39] And after a while, it does seem like I will say the last three seasons, my main issue is it does seem at that point like anyone can be bribed. It's like, even then, as a briber, your skills got to be kind of see-through after a while to where even other people want to manipulate you or aren't going to go for that as much. Because like it was fun in the first few seasons how Ray was deciding, okay, well, my kids love my father, so I'm going to keep them alive. But I'm going to bribe their parole officers.

[00:42:08] But then after a while, that gets old with it's like, okay, who hasn't been bribed? Who has not been, you know, overdosed and held ransom is like they kind of don't do as much with even Frank, the other FBI guy who later becomes like the head. And they kind of take a while to even kind of acknowledge it's like, oh yeah, that's right. He did get killed by the half brother.

[00:42:32] It was like when I kind of felt like after a while, the FBI, they didn't know how they wanted to have them around full circle. And it's like, why don't you just focus on that instead of introducing all these other underworld crime fighters? There were a lot. Yeah. And they were all seemingly, well, aside from the Russians, but they all had like Irish last names. Yeah. Even the priest Romero, is that an Irish name?

[00:43:01] And I love how they don't trust him at first. But yeah, I guess Romero's more Italian or Latin. But yeah, I didn't want to watch the show initially because I, something about, I just thought it was going to be like Hollywood glitzy fixer. Yeah. And so I put off because that doesn't turn me on at all. And the reviews were very confusing. They didn't say whether it was good or bad.

[00:43:27] They just kind of seemed like they had been handed a screener and they were like, this will appeal to so-and-so. But it didn't sound like they were a fan of Breaking Bad type shows. And like Hal said, some of it does go into some of the lesser moments that I thought plagued the Sopranos after a while. Where it's like, okay, it's a guy's world. Season four was great, like Tara said, because it approached how toxic masculinity is very rampant. And now it's kind of becoming almost the characters are being too toxic to where it doesn't feel like it's in on the joke. Yeah, that's true.

[00:43:57] Season five, did you guys kind of find it funny how Mickey's on the run in New Mexico and he encounters, again, those casino guys? And I just thought it was so funny how it's called Buffalo Bills because the actor is Ted Levine. You might know him also as the captain on Monk, but yeah, he's a good actor. And that's another kind of complaint. That heist in that casino takes forever.

[00:44:25] And it's just very annoying when you want to show planning, yes. But I think that was a big factor of different directors and writers coming in. It's like, okay, this should have, every subplot should end three episodes more than it lasts. It doesn't need to go on that long. I forget that you guys don't know me and I'm a big dog person. Like, I really like dogs, but I also very much like big dogs. And so... Who doesn't love those good laughs?

[00:44:51] The most amazing dog on a TV show you've got. Abby's dog. The doggo Argentino that Abby brings home and just calls him dog. His name is Dog. They lose him in season two and then they find him in season three, episode two. How did they find him? No, she just found him. He was like a stray or he... Yeah, but he goes missing for a few episodes. She brings him home. I can't remember.

[00:45:20] It seemed like it was in one of the later seasons. And then he was there, I think, after she passed away still. And then all of a sudden he's gone. I'm like, where's the dog? I don't know. Yeah. The damn dog. He was her protector. He would sleep on Ray's side and Ray knew... Like, he was the one who's like, you're going to keep cheating on her? Go sleep on the couch. He's kind of an afterthought. I had to bring up the dog. But anyway, I missed... I don't know where he went.

[00:45:47] You kind of like Teresa and even Tommy, the one closeted actor who's one of Ray's clients. It just seems like after a while they kind of bring him up and they forget him again and then they bring him up again. You're like, where was he before? Was the actor unavailable? Yeah. What were you going to say, Hal? I apologize. Yeah, no, no. I love a little dog love. My wife and I have two pups over here as well.

[00:46:15] But I was back to the casino heist and everything. You know, we talked... We touched a little bit on Jon Voight, who I think has gone off the deep end in real life. In real life, yes. Yes. But man, I can't help but really adore his accent and the way he delivers his lines on this show. And one of my favorite things, casino-wise, I just... A friend of mine and I, who we watched the show together, we love the way he says,

[00:46:45] the gorgeous green horseshoe. The gorgeous green horseshoe. Ah, they got this gorgeous green horseshoe with all the money on it. Ah, God. I just... I can't stop saying gorgeous green horseshoe. And just... Love it. It kind of seems like the filmmakers were kind of in on the joke, too, you know, at his character. Because, I mean, even that line that, you know, James Woods is another one and he plays the hitman who,

[00:47:14] you know, they later dispatch in the first season. And in one line he says, you people in L.A. And I almost felt like that was an inside joke. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He would totally say the line like that. Yeah, you liberals out in L.A. But it was funny how, yeah, I think Jon Voight, because of how confusing he is in real life, you know, just how he seems to... He'll say something progressive one minute and then just say all this utter outrageous stuff at Trump conventions the next.

[00:47:41] It's like, I think that's because of how confusing he is. That's why he was perfect for... To play Ray's dad. He's in a biracial relationship. And then the next minute he's making all these slurs that Irish mobsters are known to say. And yet, at the same time, he'll go, I love my boys. But yeah, I'm going to sell Ray out to the feds because fuck you, Ray. Yeah, I'm sure. No, he's super flawed too.

[00:48:08] He was probably abused, you know, so it's like generational as you guys were talking about. Generational. Yeah. So Mickey... I've loved him in Runaway Train and Enemy of the State just playing all these bizarre portrayals. But did anyone catch in season five when they got a fake Abby's death with the other guy videotaping it using the digital movies? I love how the guy at one point says, this is like a Michael Mann movie, isn't it? And I was like, totally.

[00:48:36] This whole time I've been getting vibes of something. Oh yeah, Jon Voight also in the best Michael Mann movie, Heat. Yeah, right? He's one of the underlings. And his character, I think... Jon Voight is in that? I haven't seen it in forever. Yeah, Jon Voight has a small part. He's like the fence. He's like the guy they contact to sell the stolen goods. Oh, okay. And wasn't his character inspired by Eddie Bunker, whose exploits were used in Runaway Train, which he was in? Oh, I don't know.

[00:49:05] He plays Mr. Blue and the guy who dies in the steering wheel in... No, actually the other guy who dies off screen in the... Reservoir Dogs? Yeah. And I do feel like a lot of this was definitely inspired by, you know, everything. David Iyer, Michael Mann, Eddie Bunker, and definitely some Tarantino-esque moments. It's just... Yeah. I mean, you know from within the first episode if you want to venture into this. Because I mean, it opens up with, again, you know, a rapper who Ray is saying,

[00:49:34] be on best behavior and don't invite a hooker who's going to overdose. And I'm going to have to bury their body at the end of the day. But I mean, it is interesting too how, I mean, all of us have had... Have been in a job or know someone who's been in a job where we basically just took the money and ran, where our boss is terrible or our co-worker is flawed. And here basically is like, Ray is just basically evil fighting far bigger evil. It is almost like a Punisher comic book at times.

[00:50:04] It's like just about everybody here, you know, has their demons. A little bit. Yeah, he has to... He's forced. Because like, you know, Ray, like so many great characters are like, I think of The Wire when I use this phrase. The Wire is a good contrast. He lives by a code, you know? That's a good... He's got... Like, he's a man with a moral compass, but then he kind of has to shut that off a lot of time. Yeah. Because like, remember Omar was that way? Because he's dealing with darkness.

[00:50:35] But yeah, remember Omar on The Wire. He was the same way. He was the Robin Hood of The Hood. I'm stealing from gangsters, but I'm still trying to avoid being killed in The Hood. The man's gotta have a code. Gotta have a code. It's all in the game. Another show with a shit ton of characters. Right? Oh yeah. It takes us a while to like learn everyone. Yes, for sure. That was another flaw of this show. Because like, The Wire handled the media better and even serial killers better.

[00:51:04] And one issue I definitely had, and I keep going back to season five, when they introduced Jake Busey's Acid Man serial killer, where the fuck did that come from? I was just like, okay, so I know he's a serial killer. I don't need to see a dead dog carcass in his backyard. I don't need to see all this other stuff. This is in Ray Donovan? Yeah, I remember when their Bucci gets robbed by Chef Dave. Okay. And they're trying to get the money back. There's too much that happens on this show. That's the thing.

[00:51:33] I don't know how you're pulling out things from which season. I'm like, I don't know what happens in which season. I was taking some serious notes. Yeah, it blends together a little for me as well. It does. And there's some subplots that just really annoyed me. So I kept writing them down. That was one. Because then there's another one subplot where Sam's having, they're talking about her movie. And then they don't really ever talk about what happened to that movie. I was like, well, shit, I kind of want to know what happened to that movie she was branching. But then there's a blooper where I'm like,

[00:52:03] my screenwriting 101 head kind of wouldn't shut up, where they're like, the first billion dollar movie made for the internet. I'm like, I honest to goodness doubt that anything would cost that much in this day and age. Come on. The next Avatar movie. Okay, there you go. But even then, it just felt like they were kind of stretching a bit. It's like, I can buy all these other actors who are, you know, playing bad guys and then actual villains off screen,

[00:52:32] but they have a nice guy image and they're endorsing. And next thing you know, Ray's encountering him at a fundraiser. But then there were other ones where it's like, come on, guys. There needs to be like one or two nosy reporters who's like, hey, what are you doing? And then, you know, because Ray is always kind of lucked out, like you say, and it goes back to the whole guy's fantasy. It's like, and when you get to the final season where he's doing security, I love what the press stops following him all of a sudden. It was like, I'm pretty sure there'd still be a guy up for TMZ kind of sneaking out and saying,

[00:53:01] why is Ray cornering this asshole who's stalking the actress he's protecting? He looks out the first few times with like snatching away someone's phone, but surely someone's got to have video of someone else taking video. To Hall's earlier point, I do feel like the wire again, because it had the right kind of guys tackling real life issues. It did so good at portraying schools and the media and its reaction to various

[00:53:28] topics and even serial killers. And I feel like this show kind of does take a little too many shortcuts at time. And I, in some ways I, I still applaud them for having there be a new big bad every season, but at the same time, sometimes they kind of wrote themselves into a corner on that aspect. Like I really dug the Finney family in McShane and Katie Holmes. I was just like, Oh yeah. And then I'll be in McShane. We mentioned Deadwood before he's that guy's fricking great. Yeah.

[00:53:57] And I love how he's not Mr. Invincible after a while he runs out of frets to get to where after a while he's just like, fuck you Ray, we're done. You know, but I love how at that point, like Katie was hitting on earlier, how at that point, Abby and Ray do not trust each other. They are only here for the kids. And Ray's only allowed to visit on certain days. And I loved how it was like, even though he did not sleep with page, he still accepted a kiss from her. And that was enough to set Abby afterwards. Like, ah, business. Right. Right. Fuck you. Right.

[00:54:28] I thought we were, and I love, it does also show you how they've been taking advantage of each other's trust for so long to where. I love you. Me absolutely will not mean anything is like Abby legit thought, okay, Ray, he's tired of us yelling at him. So he's finally gone straight. It was like, no, he's literally trying to marry himself into politics. And even Ray should have known better. Don't trust a politician. I'm curious what Hal thinks about, I'm wondering. so,

[00:54:54] so Ray and Ray and Abby were high school sweethearts in Southie. Right. In Boston. Do you think that, had they not moved to scandalous LA with all the beautiful people, if, he would have had so much of a wandering eye. I think, I think he would have died way earlier because. Had he not met Abby, ironically, he might've gone for the Sullivan gal,

[00:55:23] Molly played by Carrie Condon from, you know, her from better call Saul and a bunch of other movies, the last station on leash. And I think you might also know her from Rome. She played Octavia, but I thought he would have probably fallen in love with Molly. And then her dad, James and the brother Declan might've killed him. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, Ray, whether you, whether you put them on the,

[00:55:51] kept them on the East coast and Southie, or what are you, whether you move them to Los Angeles, he, I think he was doomed to repeat the sins of his father. Yeah. I think he was hardwired, uh, to betray his wife, even though he loved her fiercely. Uh, he was just hardwired to be a womanizer. Right. Right. He was too repressed as a kid.

[00:56:20] And once again, the Catholic priest raped him and his brother as a kid, and he decided to murder him and cover it up is like, that was the last thing working. He could have literally maybe been a priest and done some good. But again, you know, with, with the lack of a mother and me and my grandmother strongly believe this. We see so many people who go with just single parents throughout their lives. And I know everyone varies, not all of it's bad, but it does make a significant difference when you've got two voices,

[00:56:49] modeling you growing up that way. And to not have someone who can remind them, Hey, you're doing good work to retaliate for, Hey, your dad's a prick, but he loves you, but he's also a bad person. So stay away. He didn't have that. So yeah. You're like either doomed to go for someone just like, or the exact opposite of your opposite sex parent. Isn't that what they say? Something.

[00:57:19] Good people either. None. You have the Elliot gold who used him. And Terry and Bunchy kind of look to Ray as their unofficial fodder figure. He's the one. He's the only one telling them, you got this. You're a boxer. You can make a living doing this. And then next thing, you know, it almost, that was also kind of, I wish that could have been explored territory too. I wish they could have even said all their boxing gigs. And that was a cop out too. When they, I mean, much like how's earlier point when that doesn't seem to have any idea of the

[00:57:48] New York LA thing. It was like, okay, I get that Bridget is visiting and you know, Connor's enlisting and there's bound to be an embassy where he visits, but Terry moved his boxing ring way too conveniently. I'm like, where did the way, when did this other boxing promotion? Well, they weren't making money. So, I mean, it didn't really matter. But they should have still kind of voiced that a little bit. They should have said, okay, followed chapter 11, fled the place, you know, changed the name,

[00:58:18] but they didn't, they just kind of. Light a match, walk away. Yeah. That would have been, I would have loved to have seen that instead of all the stupid boner pills and other shit. This is like, cause yeah, season five, it does have some cool endings, but there's so much other stuff where it's like, they should have really, like you say, it's like, I did get sick of how their landlady, they treat like trash after a while. And she's like, I'm just telling you what's ideal. You're not going to sell your place in this market.

[00:58:48] And after a while, it just seems like she's just another person who they're there to yell at. In the movie, the, the guy who plays young Mickey. Great. Who was that actor? He did really. Bill Heck. Wasn't he just amazing? Yeah. Good casting. All of, what's his face. Um, all his mannerisms and John Voight. And then John Voight as an actor. I was like, we should give credit to the young Mickey. Cause I was like,

[00:59:18] they don't look alike, but they do. Again, you don't question it. You know, I could see it. I could see the dynamic. I also liked the young Ray. I thought he had a quiet intensity to him. The actor playing the movie star. I think he's like a creation actor. Yes. I knew him from Madam Secretary. And I was the, I was like, I know that guy. I know that guy the whole time. I'm like, and he did a hell of a job. He's like, Hey, I want to be like this guy. Not knowing. Oh, holy shit.

[00:59:48] Method acting. You know, it's a dangerous thing. And I like how that the show, again, like you guys have described, it touches on the actors really, if anything, that shows saves this show, because you know, the, the writing does sometimes like the very points. I do love the show and I do rewatch it, but it was always the acting that is top notch. Top notch. If they're annoying, there's a reason why they're annoying. That's how it was made.

[01:00:17] I will applaud you guys for mentioning those. Those guys were highlights. Michael Hyatt. There's another wire connection as the detective Sheila, who's tracking them in season three. Oh yeah. It was a highlight for me is like, okay, good. Here's a detective who's not in it for profit and just wants to organize this manhunt. Mac, the NYPD sergeant who unexpectedly rescues Ray. That was cool. Cause they kept playing us for fools. Yeah. Where we're like. He's in the wire too, wasn't he? Yeah. Dominate.

[01:00:46] Another wire connection. Yeah. And Wendell Pierce. Wendell Pierce was also on the show. The parole guy said, this is a who's who of the wire. Yeah. He was on the wire. Yes. He was. Yep. Yeah. If you love him on this, you'll definitely love him on Jack Ryan right now. He does a hell of a job as the Muslim CIA chief. That actor can do no wrong. But I really dug Mac. Cause he keeps taking advantage of us as the viewers. We're like, so is he loyal to the blue?

[01:01:16] Is he loyal to his job? Is he take going along with the ransom? And when he takes Bridget on expectantly, he's like, Whoa, now this show is really going bananas, but it's so organized with the bananas plot twist. But at the same time, the show ended when it really needed to end. And the movie was like, you guys touched on just icing on the cake. It just really just said, this is it. No, no more. It was a perfect goodbye.

[01:01:46] I thought. We'll return after these messages. If you like small town mystery, crazy news, and wild history, then the Florida men on Florida man podcast is for you. Each week, Josh Mills and Wayne McCarty bring you the absolute best Florida has to offer. So if you're looking for a show that's safe for the family, but funny enough to help you escape everyday life,

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