Anthology Week: Filmmaker John Sayles Tribute (with former filmmaker Robert Cohen)

[00:00:06] It's a Jacked Up Review Show Righty, welcome all. Cam is here. Retired filmmaker Rob Cohen returns to the show. Welcome. Hey, thanks buddy. How is good to be with you? I look forward to it. Thank you.

[00:01:01] So we are discussing the complex and just very intriguing independent and critically acclaimed filmmaker John Sayles who started off collaborating on a few Roger Corman and little known pitchers. He was also known for being the original writer of the rejected

[00:01:23] original script for ET. He did some more mainstream movies like The Brother from Another Planet and Ape Men Out. Came up with the script for the Dolph Lundgren war film in a war before hitting it big with better known indie films like Return of the Sock, Sokaka 7,

[00:01:43] starring in some of Jonathan Demmey's and Spike Lee's works, directing Bruce Springsteen music videos, homing the TV shows The Alienist and Shannon's Dill, and his movie Lone Stars, also what got him on the map in 96. People loved his dialogue, but he has also done other

[00:02:02] indie films like City of Hope, Passion Fish, Limbo, Cassattelos Baby's, Honeydripper, Amigo, and most recently, Sonora the Devil's Highway. Just one of those other guys who's just known for just doing a lot of very intriguing movies that have an independent

[00:02:26] soul and is really good with just organizing multi-character dramas around a different scenario. He's very similar to Lawrence Kastin and Robert Altman, but I had no idea when looking him up that he also did on credit a re-rise for blockbusters like Mimic and Apollo 13 and that

[00:02:52] he had so much more acting under his belt. I was just like, wow, I've seen all those movies. I didn't realize that character in the background like of Matt Ney or Red Locks. That was him.

[00:03:09] What was your introduction to him? I remember he would always come up as being one of the co-writers of Alligator and Howling. He worked a lot with Joe Dante and some of those other guys, John Thindemme, and just had a lot of satirical influence.

[00:03:25] I was a film buff from junior high and high school, so I probably just started hearing his name because I remember, I probably learned it after seeing something that he was the writer on Piranha,

[00:03:43] which I thought was kind of interesting like an early credit before he started directing stuff. I remember I knew that early, but I'm guessing that probably the first film that I saw, because I didn't see the return of the Socaca Seven early on.

[00:04:06] And I didn't see Brother from Another Planet, so I'm going to have to say the first film I saw was Mate One and it blew me away, blew my mind. I rewatched it in the last

[00:04:20] year. It's one of my most favorite movies. Very nice. From that point on, and Eight Men Out was John Cusack, so it had a bigger commercial side to it. I definitely remember seeing that.

[00:04:37] Sports movies aren't necessarily my thing as much, but yeah, for me it was definitely Mate One would have been my introduction to knowing him and then reading about him would have probably been next

[00:04:54] because I'm trying to think, didn't he write a book? I think I had it when I was a kid. I tried to see what Bookie wrote. Hold on a second. I just want to make sure I don't say it, and it's actually somebody else.

[00:05:24] All right, what will say, I'll keep looking. But yeah, I was kind of like that. I noticed he had written a lot of those creature features. My father had a DVD copy back when DVDs were a thing of

[00:05:37] Eight Men Out, and I saw Mate One playing on all the movie channels, but I definitely never saw it. So in college he was just kind of, I did get the chance to see Return of the Sakaka 7 in the

[00:05:49] college theater as part of the film studies class, and so that was great. I saw that the same time that his little scene thriller film Limbo had come out, but I was just more just kind of

[00:06:01] blown away how he was just using so many beloved character actors at the beginning of their careers like Mary McDonald, Angela Bassett, David Straithorn, again, Joe Morton and Jamie Sheridan. Again, all these guys are commonly used now, but a lot of it is their first few credits.

[00:06:23] Silver City and Casa de los Babies, I've kind of been disappointed by, and yet I don't mind them that they're definitely watchable. But I need to re-see Lone Star, and I've never seen

[00:06:36] Men with Guns or the Secret of Roan Irish, but I was fortunate enough to see City of Hope and Passion Fish within these last three years recently. They've just been fortunately played on the movie channels, and I definitely like his free-flowing mentality. I still need to see

[00:06:57] Go Force Sisters in Sonora and Honey Dribber, but Amigo is one I was fortunate enough to see, which covered the Filipino-American War, and Chris Cooper is another actor who he likes to

[00:07:13] use in a lot of his work. And again, that guy is just second nature now because now people know him from movies like American Beauty and Born Identity, but I'm like, yeah, but at the time,

[00:07:24] he was not known. And I guess you could say he isn't indie darling. He's beloved by so many film buffs, and yet it seems to take a while before people actually get around to seeing a

[00:07:40] lot of his work because he doesn't put explosions in his movies, so people just don't see it as much. Yeah, they're not genre movies. They're not the typical film geek kind of stuff. There's not

[00:07:54] comic book stuff, but I did remember, you know what it was? Because it was very influential on me when I was a kid. I wanted to be a filmmaker, so I had this book that he wrote, and the

[00:08:04] title of the book so intrigued me. I was like, I have to have that book. He wrote the book. Yeah, he wrote the book called Thinking in Pictures, the making of the movie

[00:08:16] Mate One. So also because it was about Mate One specifically, but he titled it Thinking in Pictures and about how you do visual thinking and how you frame things. So as a film geek who loved

[00:08:31] that movie, I was like, ah, here's a book that'll give me the keys to being like a great filmmaker. I mean, you know, I skimmed it and thought it was very cool, but I always thought that book was kind

[00:08:44] of very cool, especially for the title. Definitely by the name alone, but in all fairness, like you say, if you're a fan of a movie, you want to get every making of thing that you can get

[00:08:57] your hands on and it is wild when it's in book form and not on a disc or in this day and age streaming. Did you ever see the, sorry, go ahead. Now you go ahead. Did I ever see what?

[00:09:09] Did you ever see the movie Sunshine State? No, I have not seen it. So that was wild because like that was one that I saw so often at like the video stores. It used a lot of his same

[00:09:24] actors that he commonly uses like Mary Sternberg and Gordon Clap. And even I was going to see it eventually because it had Eddie Falco and other TV actors like James McDaniel in it. But this is so

[00:09:37] funny is I, that was another one I just saw within I think the last five years and unlike stars or FX or whatever. And it's interesting how when people bring up indie filmmakers, they often go and talk about all the anyone from Robert Rodriguez to

[00:10:01] and there's so many others. They'll talk about people who literally would just make movies dirt cheap, but after a while kind of not get back to anything. And he's interesting in that he kind

[00:10:12] of he helps out a lot of other big indie guys like he helps fund their documentaries. He does rewrites for big budget blockbusters and then goes back and does his own thing. And then

[00:10:25] like it helps out with like five other indie projects. There's like a bunch of special things to he just seems like such a cool guy who's been doing this so damn long. Well, this may sound a little ridiculous and I'm being playful, but he's also he's like

[00:10:41] a rugged good looking guy. He's got that kind of that Hemingway kind of like jack of all trade. I'm a writer, I'm an editor, I'm a soundtrack guy. I'm a you know, I can I can do script

[00:10:53] doctrine. I can act, you know, he's got a little of that. Oh, see me in my brain farts. The here's the thing here's what we're going to do when I when I can't think of

[00:11:07] something even though I know I'll just tell you the queue and you'll just give me the name because it's super easy. The rugged actor who was also a playwright who was married to Jessica Lang. Oh, Sam Shepherd. Sam Shepherd. Yeah, he's got a Sam Shepherd quality to him.

[00:11:25] You know, you're not far off. He does kind of have kind of a playwright mentality. He just goes on that rugged kind of Western, you know, independent creative artist thinker type thing about him. And you know, his movies don't betray that either. He doesn't write simple,

[00:11:45] you know, stories that just have a beginning and a middle and an end. They're always multi layered complex stories that have not just one plot line but multiple things happening on different levels. I read a quote he had. I can't remember about which film it was

[00:12:05] where he was talking about how the film was marketed as just being, you know, this kind of, you know, whatever that film was marketed as is a crime drama or about a romance. And he said,

[00:12:18] look, that's just typical for my movies. There's so many threads and you can't they don't boil down to two sentences the way a lot of movies do. So right, he doesn't take exception. The

[00:12:29] fact that the studio is just going to pick the one thing that's going to get the most, you know, butts in the seats. And, you know, I think that's accurate. He writes very, I don't know if they're very complex, but he writes interwoven stories that are about exploring

[00:12:50] things on multiple levels and they're not just simple two sentence premises. That's a good way of putting it because it isn't. He doesn't go on a crazy plot twist in the last 20 minutes, he's not.

[00:13:07] And his he doesn't really have really a gimmick so much as just a scenario and he writes around it. And what he finds interesting, he's pretty good at elaborating upon that and making it intriguing to many and some of these movies that he's done screenplays for it's just

[00:13:26] even more interesting just seeing that he has no problem with the fact that it might vary or not come out the way he wanted it. But he's cool with that and that it can be just whatever. And this is like, I did my part you do your part.

[00:13:44] Yeah, definitely. So maybe we should because it's such an influential and important film, maybe we should start at the beginning with his directing work at least and talk about Return of the Socaca Seven.

[00:14:02] Oh yeah. And this is another one. It's not easy to sum up. It's kind of more of a I don't want to say experimental but yeah, it's just like seven college buddies just getting

[00:14:17] together and just kind of you know, it's reflecting a lot of just what was happening. I guess post Vietnam just people were going around to rallies and sometimes they're getting out of control and he's kind of just good at just kind of putting you just kind of

[00:14:40] in the lens of these various characters and it's very John Casavetes where you just feel like everyone's having an authentic conversation. You don't know where it's going, but you're all the way intrigued because you feel like you're watching

[00:14:56] leaning in on he doesn't make it so much voyeuristic as he does just interwoven. It is like you are you legit feel like you are just along for the ride and hearing this entire conversation.

[00:15:10] Right. Yeah, I saw there was a review by Roger Ebert about Brother from another planet that said that you know the movies told in vignettes but they hold up and most of them are abusing or

[00:15:25] highlight things that are interesting to watch and I think that's true of Return of the Socaca Seven. It's like watching a mosaic. There are these little colored tiles that are just you cut between them, you cut around them. I definitely was thinking there was a Casavetes

[00:15:43] element but also the Altman element with all these different things just being they're like tapestries or they're like mosaics. He's weaving this thing together to tell the whole story more than just having any individual through line and it's giving you the atmosphere and

[00:16:02] the feeling and the energy of these characters and who they are and where they are in their lives and I love it for that. I think it's groundbreaking in those terms and why the movie is preserved as

[00:16:19] a historical document and as a slice of life as well but it's interesting the thing that drew me to that movie early on and I talk sometimes like in absolutes but I'm mostly just

[00:16:36] pontificating to be playful but the thing that I've had since I was in college was my hatred of the film The Big Chill and the thing I hate about The Big Chill is although it's similar

[00:16:58] and in many cases you could say it's either a riff or a rip off of color cinematic or influenced by it you know took the idea from it whatever or you know whatever it's its own thing but that

[00:17:15] movie is so tight and so well done and it's got all the great music so it grabs you and it's got all the big actors but the thing that happens in that movie that I resent just you know being I

[00:17:30] indulge my own personal whims is that the end of that movie justifies the fact that all of those characters sold out their 60s idealism and it's okay that they did that because you know now

[00:17:46] they're grown-ups in modern life and jobs and we have to you know be mature now and I thought it was disgusting. Yeah I don't know if he thought that way or he just figured that's the only way the

[00:17:59] story ends or if the studios were like yeah I would don't like that rebellious stuff you gotta change a few things. Not just about Kazen's Big Chill I mean the whole movie. Oh okay. I'm not talking

[00:18:09] about Ken, I'm only I'm talking about The Big Chill. That movie kind of ends but yeah. And yeah that whole movie is like look at us and you know how we used to be idealists but now we aren't anymore

[00:18:20] because we sell sneakers or whatever we do and isn't it cute we still have our nostalgic music but we've moved on and I always felt that was kind of disingenuous and an unfair dig at the

[00:18:35] value of people's ideals. And the nice thing about The Return of the Socaca Seven is you're dealing with the same sort of plot setup where you have these kids who were rebels and got

[00:18:47] arrested for wanting to go to promote protests over and over again in some cases or all of them got busted at one point and were in jail together and that's how they get their nickname

[00:18:58] The Soca Seven but there's not any of that heavy-handed moralizing almost in any of sales films. It's much more like who are these characters? What are they about? How have they shifted without

[00:19:13] some big universal grand statement of you know what we should think about them or how we should judge them and that's why sales films are just more poetic than most movies. I very well said because there's so many other people who I don't know they almost kind of

[00:19:35] remind me like some of these infamous creators at TV shows where they're just all about taking the credit but kind of don't share the you know applauding their crew and I think sales is just

[00:19:48] so good at just utilizing everybody getting some great shots that do actually tell a story and the multi-character stuff doesn't feel over plotted or just way too long for its own good. And he's doing stuff that's just like just every kind of thing someone having to do

[00:20:10] a legal medical procedure trying to do a get rich quick scheme trying living during a chaotic period in any part of history either American or foreign and he's good at like you say just concluding it

[00:20:32] and never feeling like he owes so much to some other kind of filmmaker he's and the characters are all just part of one giant voice as opposed to feeling like too many people

[00:20:46] in the room and one of them's got to leave in order for the story to just end. Yep yep and clearly there's something in his material that has worked for every kind of generation and I just find it kind of just sad that whenever anyone's talking about indie

[00:21:07] pictures they kind of go to just oh Paul Thomas Anderson or just some other guy who made a WTF-esque mystery or horror movie and it's like there are so many other indie people have been working here since the beginning of Time Guys. They should check them out.

[00:21:24] And you actually you know work much more within a traditional indie frame than Paul Thomas Anderson who has a tremendous about a studio support behind him. Paul and Wes and yeah all those guys are kind of yeah they're going to get backing

[00:21:40] and plenty of Aucalai nominations and John I don't think he cares about awards he just wants to make a good story and even the two movies I mentioned that I didn't think from Ophirino for that I didn't think were great I still did not regret watching they were

[00:21:56] still very atypical characterizations and we'll have to come back to Casa de los babies because I just watched it this morning and I liked it I like to go. No that's fine. Yeah so why do you

[00:22:11] think all the other actors latch on to his stuff because some of it could easily be argued as being kind of like a stage playing then there's just something else about it where I guess you

[00:22:21] could say they're just unusual dramas I guess. I would probably say he's an actor's director and writer he's somebody that actors would like to work with because he writes exploration of character

[00:22:43] and he has that Casa Betty's independent exploratory quality to the work you know I don't know how much he works directly off the script versus improvisation but I would think more because he's such a great

[00:22:57] writer and so actors love good writing and good parts and from early on he's sort of been that ensemble kind of director like Altman and other people where they have that or even

[00:23:14] cast it where they have that core group of actors early on or Scorsese core group of actors you work with early on and then they become big and famous but when you start out that way

[00:23:27] and you've helped those actors develop into becoming famous you're clearly the kind of person that actors you know recognize as being somebody that it's valuable to work with and the movies are proof in the pudding that you know these these aren't just special effects

[00:23:46] extravaganza they're their their character studies where actors get something to sink their teeth into and I think that's going to be very appealing for them to want to work with

[00:23:57] them. Okay and he does make good use of all the roles that I don't ever think of one where I'm like why is this actor in here? Yeah and he's taken the just people who have again I guess must have

[00:24:13] always been on the theater scene or Broadway scene because there's so many of them where I'll look at them they're like oh man that star I didn't realize they were in this and that was a hell of a good performance because the character felt real and

[00:24:31] even different from what they typically portray. You just reminded me when you made the comparison to you know somebody who writes in a theatrical way or in a way that's related to plays there's that fundamental rule of cinema that people talk about all the time which is

[00:24:48] you know you show you don't tell and that's clearly what sales is doing all the time with his characters they don't just pontificate or tell you in any overt way what you should think they reveal it

[00:25:08] it's there and that's got to be great for actors they're constantly being written to just reveal elements of their personality and who they are and then the audience gets to just

[00:25:23] explore that and figure out what it means to them without being told exactly you know over your head what it means. Totally and without being trivial or giving too much away and

[00:25:38] his shots aren't I can't think of any of his movies that are based on having a very giant signature style so I think that is like his main signature just characters just get together

[00:25:51] and they just reveal something and it just keeps building up and up until there's nothing more to reveal and yeah exactly so you know what that kind of makes me think of mate one because I've

[00:26:04] been trying to think of how to talk about it so for me that's the the central movie of his career that and it's the central movie in my life in terms of favorite movies and there's so many

[00:26:16] things that work in that movie but let's just pick it up from what you just said which is that you have a movie that's basically about a true events and the true events culminate as the

[00:26:29] film does with a tragedy so many times when you have a film with a tragedy say like the assassination of Gandhi you need to put that up front because everyone knows it happens what happened yeah

[00:26:44] here's the story of how it came to happen right and in a sense that is what mate one is but he doesn't need to put it up front the massacre is going to happen at the end but by the time

[00:26:57] you get to the massacre the massacre just breaks open everything you've seen in the struggles of these character there's definitely good versus evil in that movie and it's clearly the corporate you know business side is on the evil side and the union fighters are on the good side

[00:27:16] but when that massacre happens at the end instead of just being some kind of anti-climax or like oh well that just everything just blew up it just leaves you feeling the the deeper pain and

[00:27:31] the deeper investment and the deeper passion of all the characters that fought their way to get something accomplished in their lives that ended up tragically unfolding in that kind of bloodshed and again it's a very poetic kind of silent ending but I just think structurally it's brilliant and

[00:27:55] you know what you just said just kind of reminded me of it that that he he can just present that and then let you just leave with the emotional weight of it yeah very true because I mean

[00:28:08] Richard Audenberg basically there's another guy who much like David Lean would want to make a giant epic but would want to make it be structured around the drama as opposed to when's the next

[00:28:18] battle sequence going to happen even though there would be some battles in his movies on occasion but I mean Jeff Nichols I think is probably one of the few people who kind of has a similar style

[00:28:30] to John Syles you've seen a lot of his movies like loving mud and shotgun stories he's all about see a character kind of finds out something unusual about their inner self that's pretty much his main

[00:28:50] style and Syles definitely has characters revealing more about themselves if not entirely changing by movies in and it's never about wow that was a good performance but there wasn't anything else to that you know you know low budget movie that played at the Angelica theater in your area

[00:29:09] was like no there's there's a lot to latch on to and really digest yeah absolutely and there's some and eventually you're gonna see a lot of his movies anyway just because all these actors that are in his movies I mean even City of Hope alone you're gonna

[00:29:28] probably see just if you're a fan of some of the supporting actors like Tom Rye, Gina Jershin, Tony Dennison, Frankie Faison I think is also in there and well like you said I mean I didn't borrow

[00:29:44] with Gandhi and some of those other filmmakers at that time were just so good at building up to is like you know how this will end but here's how it began and here's how we latch you in

[00:29:57] here's how we get you into where you know you're so distracted by the story you forget how it's actually going to end after a while you're so invested but you don't feel ripped off or like

[00:30:09] well bummer what I'd see and it's a totally legitimate way to go I think you know Attenborough is a great director and Gandhi is a freaking amazing movie but it's just a different approach like you

[00:30:22] you don't you don't need to to I mean it's so painful to say here's our hero that we explore for this whole movie and then at the end he just gets killed I mean it's so painful

[00:30:33] but yet sales takes it he's like you know what these are characters we're all gonna you know really grow to care about and in the end this massacre is going to actually just add a lot of weight to

[00:30:48] how much their struggle cost and what it meant to be so invested in something they cared about so passionately totally and I think David Fincher could probably do the equivalent of what they're

[00:31:02] trying to do but you know even though he's through that shirkel a well-known he's mainly known for his dark character studies and it seems like unfortunately we're getting a little more ADD with every

[00:31:14] generation where now everyone wants to know what shocking what the shocking ending of an M9 Shyamalan movie or just for Nolan blockbuster that just came out is like instead of actually discussing if they actually liked it or not debating endlessly and it's just like see

[00:31:34] don't you're being just as bad as the various clickbait sides want to just say I loved or did not like that movie I'm thinking about it still so clearly it made some kind of impression

[00:31:44] and unfortunately I mean I think Syles you know having worked so long in the industry just knew he was going to have competition and I think he just you know from what other interviews I've seen

[00:31:59] he just seems to just always say hey I just I know what I want to tell the minute I do it you know I there's an audience for everything you know if Woody Allen can do stories about people

[00:32:09] who grow up living in New York with you know family members and love interest then I can do a movie about five people in this one inner city who live together you know just like Oliver Stone can do a

[00:32:25] politically charged movie about a crime scandal or a spike Lee can do a movie that's a commentary on a hard to talk about subject you know I can do my own take on hey here's this

[00:32:40] depression era biopic and here's probably how someone probably lived day to day talked and felt growing up and I think also a lot of these actors who he's worked with have also

[00:32:57] as a result they kind of based a lot of their career around it they started looking for a lot of that same type of scripting especially with David Strait iron and Angel LaBassa they always seem

[00:33:07] to go for a giant ensemble piece instead of worrying about can I be the next Julia Roberts or Tom Cruise right and carry a movie and be the giant magnet that makes everyone you know come into the theater

[00:33:22] yeah definitely um but I mean it's also just interesting like you say how diverse he is you know he's making fun of uh politics in Silver City and Cassidy Los babies he's talking about

[00:33:40] you know some you know a baby adopting service a bunch of gals with a lot of time on their hands and uh Matt one again you know is bringing up just some great themes about work unions and

[00:33:57] Sakaaka seven is you know again you know when it's not talking about college it's also talking about just kind of uh just well the angst and what everyone's feeling it's not exactly like

[00:34:11] political but it's also kind of just a natural heartfelt kind of everyday kind of scenario movie and unfortunately I will see a lot of other indie films that kind of have a similar plotting but

[00:34:26] half the time the lighter have a lot of ad-living or just be even more looser in their story to where all you really take away from it is hey there's that one actor who was really good at and

[00:34:37] uh he doesn't really feel like uh any of his actors are out of place or that if one of them leaves the movie the whole thing doesn't work we'll return after these messages if you like small town mystery crazy news and wild history then the Florida men on

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[00:36:03] cats check them out a lot of these movies are like even barely two hours so I guess he just always just he knows how long he has to make it without but there's even been times where they have been

[00:36:23] somewhat longer than two hours and you don't feel like any time's escaping you or I definitely don't feel any self-indulgence from this material I just really just just naturally kind

[00:36:34] of gaze into it. Gaze into it is a nice term for his movies there's something that you can just sort of float into you know we you and I just actually did a little talking about Oliver Stone

[00:36:49] and you know the film of Johns that just for me brings that to mind and then I'll bring up what I think is the broader point was men with guns and so yeah men with guns just sort of reminded me a

[00:37:05] little bit of that feel of like early Oliver Stone like Salvador you know and I think regardless and I think regardless of what film John is working on he it feels like he's going after

[00:37:21] something that he wants to dramatize like here's a situation in the world and how do I create or weave a story that will let people have a window into it and you like you so we can

[00:37:35] gaze into it so with men with guns you know you get taken into that world it's not as I don't mean to say that Oliver Stone's early stuff was heavy-handed but it's just definitely not as heavy-handed as

[00:37:48] Oliver Stone you you just you get taken into these worlds like say Lone Star or Casa de los babies you go into this world and you suddenly after Lone Star you feel like you've gotten more

[00:38:03] of a sense of Texas than you maybe even wanted to like even though it's told with subtle things about the characters and their relationships and you know you still get this feeling of like God

[00:38:18] what is this universe that these people live in and the politics of it and the cultural trappings of it really come out dramatically in Lone Star with what you know might be I don't know how

[00:38:30] many how many times he does it but a little bit of a surprise ending at Lone Star that really is a commentary on just the nature of the culture in Texas and having just watched Casa de los

[00:38:42] de los babies you know here's a film that set up about a group of American women who are staying in a hotel in a South American country waiting to adopt these poor babies from this other country

[00:39:00] so they can take them home and you know be moms and yeah through all that you have kids on the street who don't have enough to eat that you know they don't have somebody adopting them

[00:39:12] and you have the struggles of the people who are providing the accommodations for these women and their frustrations and people who can't get work so the whole socio-economic cultural political environment is surrounding a very simple the structure sets up these characters

[00:39:33] who are just simple women who are hurting because they are struggling to have families and yet through the structure you get revealed a whole bunch of different layers of the infrastructure that affects these kinds of lives and I think Oliver Stone too sets out with a theme

[00:39:56] of like how do I dramatically portray this situation but Stone does it much more through certain kinds of action where I think John Sayles does it much more through just these deeper

[00:40:14] I'm going to go back to this term again these colored mosaic tiles of character that when you juxtapose them all make a much bigger picture and a way of feeling into a situation that you

[00:40:29] wouldn't have had before you saw the movie and good way of putting it because yeah Stone would definitely base it on the casting and everything and he's more about how would I show the different

[00:40:46] voices in the room I mean I'll even say Tom McCarthy I think does a good job of it with the station agent and spotlight here's all these different voices and here's how we the viewer sees them

[00:41:01] and captures it without feeling like one person's getting too much talking over the other or it's too many voices talking all at once and it's just the right amount of third person perspective

[00:41:17] and yeah and all the all the free those movies you just mentioned like I would always see men with guns being played on IFC I never got the chance to catch it but yeah it sounds on paper

[00:41:28] like something like Salvador Scarface that he might have written but it's instead just a very provocative tell about how precious life is and how did some of these people get themselves into this unremarkable violent filled situation Casadillo's baby shows many people who are

[00:41:50] tempted to adopt or want to do this but aren't sure they're ready for motherhood or and among other predicaments and Lone Star if you just looking at it I mean if you tell anyone

[00:42:05] about it they're going to be like oh but who's in it or it was like well it's irrelevant that Chris Christofferson Elizabeth Pina Joe Morton or even McCott a young McConaughey are in it

[00:42:16] but what's interesting is that it's basically a current sheriff trying to figure out about the previous administration and some disturbing secrets about his old man that but it's a very well told

[00:42:31] and very eye-opening for what might have sounded on paper like a like a Walter Hill New Western yeah but also then how in a place like Texas people hide their history they hide from the truth

[00:42:49] and then they end up hiding their own identity from each other and then to have it just sort of unfold in such a you know you know almost shocking kind of way at the end you know really

[00:43:01] makes a point about the world these characters live in that goes a lot deeper than just oh it turned out that these bad guys with guns were trying to stop me from finding out what really

[00:43:12] happened 30 years ago and then we fight and we bought them with guns and we got the truth and now the truth is revealed you know it's done so much more subtly than that that even limbo same kind of thing is like you naturally just see this

[00:43:31] this guy and his family they find Mr. Stranger and he's like oh I think you might be my dad and it's interesting so it's kind of like Lone Star but it does a about face and I'm getting myself way

[00:43:45] over my head and about to figure out some stuff that I'm not prepared to even know the answer to but I want to know more anyway and it's interesting how he does do frillers in that

[00:43:59] they again they're not based on any violent surprise or who killed who like it's all about like exactly what you say but what part of my character am I gonna discover or the audience

[00:44:16] is gonna know or the audience knows but now I'm coming to terms with and all that extra subjects all that extra layering is so well earned instead of just feeling like I'm doing some clever

[00:44:30] wordplay yep but clearly he knows how to write the other stuff I mean if you're gonna give him a paycheck he can crank out a piranha a howling uh rewrite a paul 13 and alligator an alligator

[00:44:49] a paul if you want me to give you a standard action movie I can do it let's do it just don't ask me to direct it right he's made a good living with that I even do wonder

[00:45:04] what some of his contributions were to movies like the mummy or whatever I'm pretty excited to see I mean he hasn't directed a lot of steps I mean 2013 was his last direction but I still gotta

[00:45:17] see that one that involves ever james almost as a guy and and see it wasn't gonna make man on fire taking money because it's not supposed to be like those kinds of movies but yet anyone who probably

[00:45:29] looks at that they're gonna probably go oh that sounds like a violent western revenge movie is like no if you know siles he's trying to do kind of again like you say uh someone discovering

[00:45:40] something and just kind of soaking it in a more naturally human way and people who want that get it and I've never seen anyone bash his work so that's a relief it's kind of cool to know that

[00:45:57] there's some there's an audience for him instead of feeling like oh there's that obscure movie but it's you know it wasn't too noteworthy other than that how it was shot or acted and like you say he

[00:46:11] is good at just kind of just soaking in these details and adding little just elements of whatever to it uh you know he can make it be a crime picture he can make it be a period piece

[00:46:26] or historical drama or he can make it be a straightforward comedy to some extent and I think he just all they get are just I mean because we even mentioned earlier how we're not

[00:46:41] really all that really into sports movies but uh eight men out is just very interesting how it becomes kind of a uh boys in in the club kind of movie and then it wasn't really fair to

[00:46:54] call eight men out of sports movie I mean right it was marketed as that but it's not really yeah that it even ends with a courtroom but it's not done even like a typical courtroom really it's like

[00:47:06] everyone's got a statement to basically share and yeah in a sense it is very much the same thing here are a bunch of characters who are presenting an image of what we think the culture is supposed to look like but behind the scenes there's some corruption going on

[00:47:23] and the underbelly of what really is going on and what it says about what's really happening with the culture in these characters gets revealed through you know exploring the characters again

[00:47:34] and that's why he's so good at what he does. A thousand percent and you you I would hire him just like in a heartbeat just if I just knew he could uh just make something that would be just

[00:47:53] so well interconnected it could be a movie about gambling it could be a movie about someone dealing with personal loss. I'd hire him to write anything but I don't think he should

[00:48:05] direct anything but his own stuff. I think I think he's a director who wouldn't be interested in no he wouldn't I'm just saying. Yeah if he's gonna direct a movie which clearly takes a lot of time

[00:48:20] and effort he's going to do it on something that really is personally of interest to him and every single movie he's directed meets that criterion now the scripts can be all over the place

[00:48:32] because they're for other people which I was really surprised when I looked up to see his credits he's in pre-production on a script for a Django movie called Django Lives looks like really yeah based on you know the old Italian kind of like spaghetti western Django movies

[00:48:52] which to me sounds really exciting yeah I think that would be awesome so let's you know see how yeah and and we're cool with him just kind of just surprising us there's other people who

[00:49:07] I don't know we become so accustomed to what their signature style is or when they have that lack luster period that every most filmmakers tend to go through uh he's always a pleasant surprise so

[00:49:21] we want him to keep surprising us because he doesn't stick to really any kind of formula or setting or even the same actors even after a while he's used so many actors lately who

[00:49:35] have been working since the 70s and who technically don't even need to work but I think he goes for those kinds of types of actors too who are looking for something to do that isn't a superhero or

[00:49:51] a Oscar bait movie they want something is like yeah I can totally I got it in me to help you tell that story there's something to this that sticks that glues people and look at this I didn't

[00:50:04] notice I just noticed he has um he's written at least one novel he's written short story collections um that makes sense because there is this one obscure like movie that I think played

[00:50:17] a few times on tv that he was like one of free people and dealt with like anthologies that weren't really connected but kind of dealt with again just everyday kind of people situations like child custody uh police victims it was interesting how he he can kind of insert

[00:50:38] himself into any kind of situation and he finds something to gravitate towards that he's invested in and we the viewer are follow him along because this it just feels just so naturally compelling yeah and it's a variation of what I was saying before about the mosaic but

[00:50:59] a lot of creators you know they they they use the their art to to just speak for themselves through the different elements he clearly has an ear and can find all the voices for these different

[00:51:17] characters and let these people be unique and individual and have their own personalities that aren't just all variations on him like he can really you know pull that those different colored mosaic tiles together and let them be themselves and you know as a writer that's great

[00:51:41] when you have somebody who can really give voice to all the different characters and let them stand you know individually for themselves and um yeah without too many cooks in the kitchen like

[00:51:52] you say most people like him would probably have been like oh I gotta adapt my buddies work but yeah let's get 10 more writers in the writer's room but and even is almost kind of like Robert Town you know this town has made a career out of being

[00:52:08] the number one script doctor and then kind of going about and doing his own kind of 40s inspired noir tribute and to some degrees a success and I just it is interesting how

[00:52:23] uh like men of war is like one of the few movies uh that even though he did not direct it it's still it's like the only movie of his that like is argued as having his voice because even the people in it

[00:52:39] are all just a different degree some of them are totally the same types of actors who were working with him on other projects and they just stuck with it even though he didn't have

[00:52:49] time to direct it but uh I like it because it's just instead of being a bizarre or over the top you know action movie is just kind of an interesting tell on what is it like to be a mercenary and

[00:53:05] just go on unusual adventures uh and uh you know people of course saw the cover and so they thought oh it's a Dolph Lundgren movie and he's like now it's really not even a Dolph Lundgren

[00:53:17] movie he just happens to be in it yeah that's nice right I'm gonna go see a movie the Dolph Lundgren is just in and it's not a Dolph Lundgren movie all right that's interesting really more interesting than going to see a Dolph Lundgren movie

[00:53:38] he just happens to be in it like yeah happens to be it um it's also just kind of I don't I can't think of any roles that these actors have played since that is anything like it and

[00:53:52] what they've done in any other movies and I also just like how there's never a feel for like you say to be for him to be heavy handed or just to trigger happy with certain themes he he never

[00:54:11] and when his movie's in you never see really the ending coming and when it does happen you're just like wow I kind of want to know a little more about this and that because again that those characterizations were just so intriguing as opposed to polarizing and you

[00:54:27] know dull and made you want the movie to conclude um passion fish I was just so fortunate to see and you know on paper that sounds like kind of a silly what could have been

[00:54:39] slog-fast you know a soap opera actress becomes disabled and has to you know get closer to a bunch of caretakers well it ends up being a very electrifying character study with you know I was going to see it anyway because I'd heard about it starring Mary McDonald and

[00:55:00] Alfred Woodard but as like this is just so much much more to this this is like living the rest of your life in an atypical way finding all kinds of friends you would have otherwise

[00:55:13] never made or had it doesn't feel so funny how she's playing a soap opera actress but yet there's only hints here and there of what it would be like to be a famous person instead of

[00:55:26] you've intrigued me because it's like just a hilarious little aside it does sound fun it's very off on candy that is for sure because anyone else would have probably done a movie within a movie or

[00:55:39] I don't know maybe a well yeah that's why I'm intrigued because this the personal side note is that one of the first movies I ever worked crew on was soap dish with the oh nice so

[00:55:53] it's a broad comedy about soap opera and so I was like oh maybe it'd be fun to see a more John sales take on on the reality of a soap opera character than that goofy broad comedy that

[00:56:05] I worked on all that time ago back in the day by when I say work on I was an assistant location manager in New York City for a few years I worked on crews in the city it's a credit in the city

[00:56:21] city in well yeah back in when I lived there I'm in the city so yeah so you know what I whatever we do when we're talking about these things one thing I do sort of feel like is kind of

[00:56:34] fun is to you know we're talking about these people and why we think they're important and what their contributions are but I also think for anybody who's listening it's kind of

[00:56:47] a good thing to sort of get you know that we're recommending these people to you on a certain level except when I say oh I hate that you know but then you can watch it anyway because I'm

[00:56:57] just opinionated but if we're really recommending something I mean I hope that that a discussion like this would be just like yeah check out some John sales if you really love filmmaking

[00:57:10] we're open for as opposed to he's so amazing you got to sign up to the streaming platform now than 20 days now just check them out you're bound to I can't think of anyone who

[00:57:23] doesn't have at least one film buff friend who is a huge uh uh like of interest in sales filmography and like some of these guys you've inevitably seen one of his movies at one time

[00:57:39] on cable tv one of them got through eventually yeah but I would say it's very easy for the vast majority of film buffs like when I went to film school most of the kids I went to school with

[00:57:50] and even to this day most film buffs I know you know they're film buffs for gremlins and indiana jones and jaws and all that kind of stuff and it isn't every film person that's gonna even

[00:58:06] if they know and respect uh sales it's somebody who's going to be a little more thoughtful somebody who's interested in something a little bit more poetic and yet still grounded and meaningful so if you're looking for something a little richer John is definitely somebody you should check out

[00:58:29] thousand percent thousand percent yeah that's right that's right thank you for being on here johnny boo Cohen it's good to be with you as always I enjoy the chance to chat with you my friend oh yeah

[00:58:50] I I want to talk about as many of these filmmakers who don't even really get talked about who many beloved them but yet and I'm impressed with how many of his movies you've seen you are a very

[00:59:04] completeist film I still gotta see maybe guns I promise I'll see it all right I'll get back to you about watching the soap opera one too passion fish that's okay yeah I think we're being on here and

[00:59:20] uh a good recovery oh thank you yeah I was a little under the weather but I'm feeling better even better see you next time anytime follow us on the web on facebook twitter and instagram

[00:59:42] the podcast is available on podby spotify i heart radio anchor apple and anywhere else podcasts are available feel free to review our show and leave comments on any of those sites thanks a million for listening review show it's a

[01:00:11] jacked up review show it's a jacked up jacked up review show