167. The Courier (2020) - Guest: Ian Sanders from Cold War Conversations

[00:00:02] Hello and welcome to SpyHards Podcast where your hosts go deep undercover into the world

[00:00:41] of spy movies to decipher which films make the knock list.

[00:00:45] But remember, this information is strictly for your ears only.

[00:00:49] I'm Agent Scott.

[00:00:51] Tell them I'm in my chair.

[00:00:54] And I'm Cam the Provocateur.

[00:00:56] What an entrance.

[00:00:57] Welcome to the show, Cam.

[00:00:58] Thank you.

[00:00:59] Thank you.

[00:01:00] I'm in my chair.

[00:01:01] You are.

[00:01:02] You clearly are in your chair.

[00:01:04] We've got a great film to talk about this week and a very great guest joining us.

[00:01:09] But before we get there, we need to induct our latest SpyHards Die Hard.

[00:01:13] Now if you don't know how to become one, Cam, tell the people.

[00:01:17] You can become a SpyHards Die Hard by leaving a five-star review on Apple Podcasts

[00:01:22] and telling us what you enjoy about the show or what you don't.

[00:01:25] If you want to sneak something in under a five-star review, that's okay to us.

[00:01:29] Those five stars still rack up.

[00:01:31] So that's all fine.

[00:01:32] But yeah, we read your review on the air and then I give you your special SpyHards

[00:01:38] Die Hards code name.

[00:01:40] Well here is your latest inductee folks.

[00:01:43] This one comes from the United States Apple Podcast.

[00:01:47] The username is ACR 1066.

[00:01:50] Does something happen in 1066?

[00:01:52] I don't have a clue.

[00:01:53] The Battle of Hastings.

[00:01:54] The Battle of Hastings was 1066, I think.

[00:01:56] I don't know what that is, so I'll take your word for it.

[00:01:59] Well, there's a battle that happened in Hastings.

[00:02:01] We have a street called Hastings in Vancouver, so...

[00:02:05] Which was probably named after Hastings, where there was a battle in 1066.

[00:02:11] But that's not what this lovely person writes in to say.

[00:02:15] They say, I must listen the day it arrives.

[00:02:19] Five stars.

[00:02:21] When I see a episode drop of SpyHards, it immediately goes to the top of the list for

[00:02:27] a listen.

[00:02:28] I thought I was a spy film fan prior to listening, but now I know there is such

[00:02:33] a deeper world.

[00:02:34] Thanks Scott and Cam for sharing so many hidden gems.

[00:02:39] Thank you so much.

[00:02:40] I am just tickled at the fact that someone sees the Adventures of Tartu pop up in their

[00:02:45] podcast feed and is like, that is a must listen right this second.

[00:02:49] He's the mystery man of the Balkans.

[00:02:51] How could you not?

[00:02:52] Exactly.

[00:02:53] Right.

[00:02:54] And so, yes, thank you very much for that very kind review.

[00:02:58] And as for your code name, I mean, it's obviously going to tie into this week's

[00:03:01] film.

[00:03:03] And what else could it be but Ironbark?

[00:03:07] It had to be Ironbark, didn't it?

[00:03:09] What a great name that they didn't use to name this film.

[00:03:12] Exactly.

[00:03:13] That is a pretty distinct and memorable code name, I think.

[00:03:18] Absolutely.

[00:03:19] Enjoy your new code name.

[00:03:20] Use it in public.

[00:03:22] Change your name legally.

[00:03:24] Make it your passport.

[00:03:25] I don't know.

[00:03:26] But do something with it because it's the special thing that only you have now,

[00:03:29] Ironbark.

[00:03:30] Maybe don't travel to Russia and mention your code name as Ironbark though.

[00:03:33] That might not go great.

[00:03:35] Yeah, we don't really want that to be on us.

[00:03:37] Of course, this is not real advice.

[00:03:39] We're just two fictional podcast spies out in the world, you know?

[00:03:44] Exactly.

[00:03:45] Well, get your five-star Apple podcast reviews into Apple Podcasts and we'll read them out.

[00:03:50] You'll become a spy hards die hard too and you'll be the next Ironbark.

[00:03:55] But without further ado, let's get to the review.

[00:03:59] Okay, here we are, folks.

[00:04:03] It's time to talk about this week's film.

[00:04:06] But before we get there, we need to introduce our very special guest making his triumphant

[00:04:12] second appearance on Spy Hards podcast.

[00:04:15] We pulled him out of the gulag.

[00:04:17] It is Mr Ian Sanders from the Cold War Conversations podcast.

[00:04:21] Hello, sir.

[00:04:22] How are you?

[00:04:23] I'm great.

[00:04:24] Thank you very much.

[00:04:25] Honored to have a return fixture with you.

[00:04:29] I must have done all right in the previous chat we had about Bridge of Spies, but

[00:04:34] looking forward to diving into the courier.

[00:04:38] It's an interesting one because there's a lot of connective tissue between the

[00:04:40] two films.

[00:04:41] That's one of the reasons why your name popped out in my head when we were looking

[00:04:44] at tackling this film.

[00:04:45] And obviously your podcast ties in very beautifully to this too.

[00:04:50] But also, I just think it's been a little while and we had a good time last time.

[00:04:55] I want to sort of check in and see how you've been as well.

[00:04:58] It's been a couple of years since we did Bridge of Spies.

[00:05:00] What's been new with Cold War Conversations?

[00:05:02] Wow, a couple of years ago.

[00:05:05] That long ago.

[00:05:07] Cold War Conversations has been going from strength to strength now at something

[00:05:12] like 333 episodes.

[00:05:15] Wow.

[00:05:17] Loads of interesting guests that I've had on recently.

[00:05:21] I had a East German tank commander and trying to get more content from the other

[00:05:30] side of the hill, the Warsaw Pact countries.

[00:05:33] Obviously getting hold of Russians now is not so easy, but there's all those

[00:05:38] other satellite countries to have a go at.

[00:05:42] And in fact, tomorrow I've got a really good spy story.

[00:05:45] I've got the story of John Vassal who worked in the Admiralty in London and was

[00:05:52] recruited by the KGB or coerced to work for the KGB whilst he was at the British

[00:05:59] Embassy in Moscow.

[00:06:01] So no shortage of spy stories over at Cold War Conversations.

[00:06:07] And just for those who maybe haven't tuned into the Bridge of Spies episode, what can

[00:06:11] people expect over on Cold War Conversations?

[00:06:14] Well, it's interviews with people who lived through and experienced the Cold War.

[00:06:21] So I do have interviews with KGB spies, people who work for the Shtarzy as well

[00:06:28] as CIA.

[00:06:30] British people who work for British intelligence are still very reticent to

[00:06:35] speak on the record.

[00:06:38] But there's a wide range of stories there.

[00:06:42] I do quite a number of author interviews.

[00:06:44] In fact, my interview next Saturday is with an author who's written a book

[00:06:52] about John Vassal.

[00:06:55] But I have got an interview which I haven't published yet, which is with a guy

[00:07:01] who somebody who was a friend of Rudolph Abel, who was the bridge of

[00:07:07] spies spy.

[00:07:09] And he was a good friend of his.

[00:07:10] He was a fellow artist who worked with him at the same artist studio.

[00:07:16] And it's a fascinating interview.

[00:07:19] And I did record that one on video.

[00:07:21] And at one point in the interview said, Oh, would you like to see some of the

[00:07:26] paintings I did of Willie?

[00:07:28] Because his real name was...

[00:07:30] Sorry.

[00:07:31] No.

[00:07:31] What was the name?

[00:07:33] I can't remember the name that he had at the time.

[00:07:38] But he turned up with this portrait.

[00:07:41] He came back and showed me this portrait of Rudolph Abel in the artist

[00:07:47] studio.

[00:07:48] Unbelievable.

[00:07:49] That's crazy.

[00:07:50] It's always great when guests come prepared with things like that.

[00:07:54] I'll never forget the time we had Nikki Nordea on the show who's a sort of

[00:07:59] master stunt man who did the hand to hand combat scene with Matt Damon

[00:08:03] and Jason in The Bourne Identity.

[00:08:05] And he just in the middle of the conversation, just pulled out the

[00:08:08] push dagger that he tried to kill Jason Bourne with.

[00:08:11] He's like, Yeah, I took it from the shoot.

[00:08:12] Great.

[00:08:13] Cool.

[00:08:13] What a weird thing to bring.

[00:08:15] But hey, we got to see it.

[00:08:16] Brilliant.

[00:08:17] Brilliant.

[00:08:18] Yeah.

[00:08:19] Yeah.

[00:08:19] You never know what a guest is going to turn up with.

[00:08:22] And you never know what you're going to get on Cold War Conversations.

[00:08:24] Right.

[00:08:25] Exactly.

[00:08:26] Well, you're always going to get quality.

[00:08:27] That's what you can be assured of.

[00:08:29] Damn right.

[00:08:30] And I was actually going to ask, Ian, you have now over 300 episodes.

[00:08:34] Are there any stories or interview subjects that are kind of on your

[00:08:37] bucket list?

[00:08:38] Like the ones that are still kind of keeping you up at night?

[00:08:41] Like I need to track this down.

[00:08:43] Mikhail Gorbachev was on my bucket list until he moved on.

[00:08:48] Great.

[00:08:49] Yeah.

[00:08:49] Lech Wałęsa, the leader of the Free Trade Union in Poland in 1980.

[00:08:56] I'd love to be able to speak to him, although I don't think he speaks

[00:08:59] English or that would be through a translator.

[00:09:02] I've been watching this new series on Netflix, Turning Point,

[00:09:06] The Cold War and the Bomb, and there's some great interviews on there.

[00:09:10] And one of the people they've interviewed is Gorbachev's translator.

[00:09:13] Wow.

[00:09:14] OK.

[00:09:14] Who you often see in a lot of the footage.

[00:09:17] And I've got an interview with the director of that documentary series,

[00:09:22] which should be coming out next Wednesday.

[00:09:24] And one of the questions I'm going to ask him is, can he get me in

[00:09:28] contact with Gorbachev's translator?

[00:09:31] If you don't ask, you don't get.

[00:09:32] Yeah.

[00:09:33] Yeah.

[00:09:34] But in some ways, the stories that I really like are the unknown ones.

[00:09:39] I mean, it's not unusual for me to have a guest say something along the

[00:09:44] lines of, you know what, I've not told anybody this story before.

[00:09:48] I've not shared these details even with my family.

[00:09:52] And it's amazing.

[00:09:54] You know, when I started doing the podcast, I didn't really think how

[00:09:57] powerful and how moved I would be by some of the stories that I record.

[00:10:03] And it's a real honor to, you know, record these and share them

[00:10:07] with the wider audience and ensure their preserve for posterity.

[00:10:12] It's an interesting one because I think when you last came on the show

[00:10:15] and when we've had chats outside of recording episodes, you sort of

[00:10:19] postulated Cold War Conversations as preserving a slice of history.

[00:10:24] And that's what the show does.

[00:10:26] And it really actually changed my, at least my perspective on how

[00:10:29] we do our interviews as well, because it's all well and good speaking to

[00:10:32] people who worked on, you know, like Denise Richards were mentioned earlier.

[00:10:35] It worked on a Bond film.

[00:10:37] She's done plenty of press interviews and most of those stories we got,

[00:10:40] most of them had been published before.

[00:10:42] But there's a lot of the screenwriters that we've had or directors that really

[00:10:46] have never been approached about the work that they've done, or they've

[00:10:49] done much more famous pieces, but we're asking them about a spy film they did

[00:10:53] very early in their career, no one ever talks to them about.

[00:10:55] And so I always like to approach it now as us preserving their stories

[00:10:59] because they're not getting told either until we have those conversations.

[00:11:02] Absolutely.

[00:11:03] I mean, you're preserving movie history with every interview you do,

[00:11:07] because, you know, no interview is the same and, you know, you're probably a

[00:11:12] bit like me, you know, I'm always waiting for a guest to say something

[00:11:15] along the lines of, I'd not thought about that.

[00:11:19] Oh yeah.

[00:11:20] Let me tell you about this.

[00:11:22] And you think this is great because this is unrehearsed.

[00:11:25] They've not done this before.

[00:11:27] And they're telling us something new or some, some new insight that

[00:11:30] perhaps they haven't shared before.

[00:11:33] That's the goal.

[00:11:34] That's the dream.

[00:11:35] But we've brought you back for a very special assignment.

[00:11:38] You teased it earlier with the name of the film, but I'm going to throw it

[00:11:41] to Cam for the official announcement.

[00:11:43] What are we talking about this week, Cam?

[00:11:45] Yes, we are talking about The Courier starring Benedict Cumberbatch.

[00:11:49] It's listed as a 2020 film, but that's because it played in some film festivals.

[00:11:52] It was actually released in 2021.

[00:11:55] Okay.

[00:11:55] I seem to, I thought, I thought we'd covered it in 2020, but I

[00:11:59] guess it was a 2021 declassified episode.

[00:12:02] It was.

[00:12:02] Yeah.

[00:12:03] Interesting.

[00:12:04] Okay.

[00:12:05] Well, if you haven't seen The Courier, it was, uh, it's almost, I think

[00:12:10] a lot of PVOD around the world.

[00:12:12] It is here in the UK, but here is your synopsis.

[00:12:17] And this might be the shortest synopsis I've ever read.

[00:12:19] Wow.

[00:12:20] This is literally two lines.

[00:12:21] Here we go.

[00:12:22] The Courier based on the incredible true story of a

[00:12:26] Welsh businessman turned spy.

[00:12:29] And that's it?

[00:12:30] That's it.

[00:12:31] Okay.

[00:12:32] Well, there you have it.

[00:12:34] Uh, let me see if I, oh wow.

[00:12:36] It's actually even shorter on IMDB.

[00:12:38] I'll give you a little bit more.

[00:12:40] Businessman Greville Wynn is asked by a Russian source to try and help put

[00:12:45] an end to the Cuban missile crisis.

[00:12:48] Okay.

[00:12:49] At least that's a little specific about the time period and the

[00:12:52] events that it transpires around.

[00:12:54] I guess so.

[00:12:54] I, it's a tease.

[00:12:56] Yeah.

[00:12:57] I wouldn't say that's necessary.

[00:12:59] True.

[00:13:00] Because the Cuban missile crisis hasn't really happened at the point that the,

[00:13:05] uh, but anyway, I'm being pedantic.

[00:13:08] It's okay.

[00:13:08] We didn't write these synopsis.

[00:13:10] No, I know.

[00:13:11] None of us are to blame.

[00:13:12] We can blame the person who wrote them.

[00:13:14] Uh, but I, I, I did just sort of say before we did cover this film on a

[00:13:19] declassified episode many moons ago back in 2021.

[00:13:23] So we do have our initial thoughts there if you want to travel back and

[00:13:26] hear some of those, so I won't belabor the point with Cam and I talking

[00:13:29] about our first experiences with the current, but I am interested to hear

[00:13:32] from you, Ian, as you are the master of all things, cold war.

[00:13:35] Did you stumble upon this film when it came out?

[00:13:37] And so what were your thoughts of it back then?

[00:13:40] Um, I had somehow picked up on the fact that we're going to release it,

[00:13:44] but they were at the time I picked up on it, the film was called iron bar.

[00:13:49] That was the original title, um, which was the code name, I think for

[00:13:56] the information that the KGB or the GRU spy was passing over, um, was, was iron

[00:14:04] bark and I think that probably the marketing department decided that's not,

[00:14:09] doesn't really grab people.

[00:14:11] We need something a bit more, uh, enticing.

[00:14:14] And so went for the, uh, the courier and probably people thought it was

[00:14:18] about people on bikes delivering packages around London.

[00:14:22] I mean, if you go by like literal translations, iron bark to me just

[00:14:25] sounds like a really bad iron man's spin-off.

[00:14:30] Well, I also think like, uh, iron bark makes a much better hashtag for

[00:14:34] online, like hashtag iron bark versus hashtag the courier.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:39] I, I suppose if you're going for the, um, Instagrammable names, but,

[00:14:45] uh, yeah, iron bark to me just sounds like a kid's film.

[00:14:48] I wouldn't want to watch.

[00:14:48] Yeah.

[00:14:49] They obviously weren't that interested in pursuing Gen Z.

[00:14:52] No, I don't think this film is aimed at Gen Z or Gen Alpha.

[00:14:57] Now.

[00:14:58] Sure.

[00:14:59] Well, Cam, I'm curious.

[00:15:01] I need to know how did we get the message?

[00:15:03] How did we get the courier?

[00:15:06] Right.

[00:15:06] So, um, we're going to keep the behind the scenes a little

[00:15:10] bit, um, less in depth than usual.

[00:15:13] And maybe Scott, you want to explain to the audience why that is.

[00:15:16] Oh, you've, uh, you've really thrown me under the bus there.

[00:15:19] Cause I wasn't prepared to make this, uh, sweeping statement, but this

[00:15:23] week we're having quite the courier special.

[00:15:25] We're doing two spy master interviews for you.

[00:15:29] First and foremost, the later this week, we're joined by the

[00:15:32] screenwriter of this film, Mr.

[00:15:34] Tom O'Connor.

[00:15:35] And he gives us the complete behind the scenes of how this

[00:15:38] film was envisioned and brought to life by himself.

[00:15:43] And later this week, we are also joined by the director of the

[00:15:46] film, Mr.

[00:15:47] Dominic Cook, who expands on that story even more and gives us the

[00:15:51] complete behind the scenes, uh, beat by beat breakdown of how the courier was

[00:15:56] made.

[00:15:56] So that's probably why Cam is saving his voice and not giving you the

[00:16:00] full rundown of how we got here.

[00:16:02] Yes.

[00:16:03] And those interviews have been recorded already.

[00:16:04] So we know how in depth they are in their explanations as to the

[00:16:08] journey and the evolution of this story.

[00:16:10] So, uh, they can actually state the facts versus, you know, my, uh,

[00:16:14] research version.

[00:16:15] So that'll be very good listening.

[00:16:17] I think.

[00:16:18] I think so.

[00:16:19] And they're both very passionate about the film.

[00:16:21] They both put a lot of work into it.

[00:16:23] So I'd recommend if you're a fan of the courier or a fan of sort of cold

[00:16:26] war movies, check them both out later this week.

[00:16:29] Yes, definitely.

[00:16:30] I'll definitely be listening to those.

[00:16:32] I mean, it was a absolute pleasure to take part in them.

[00:16:35] Uh, and so yeah, I think this is going to be some great stuff for

[00:16:38] the listeners.

[00:16:39] It's interesting.

[00:16:40] We haven't done sort of the double bill since the Avengers, I think back

[00:16:44] in 2021, when we tackled the nineties film doing the screenwriter and

[00:16:48] the director in the same week.

[00:16:50] So it's been a while since we've done that.

[00:16:51] Yeah.

[00:16:52] No kidding.

[00:16:52] No kidding.

[00:16:53] That's an odd pairing.

[00:16:54] Three episodes in a week.

[00:16:55] Yeah, it is.

[00:16:56] It is the Avengers and the courier.

[00:16:58] They've got the.

[00:16:59] Both set around the sixties.

[00:17:01] So they've got that going for them.

[00:17:03] I mean, one doesn't feature Sean Connery making puns about getting wet.

[00:17:06] That's true.

[00:17:07] That's true.

[00:17:07] I thought that was very strange when that happened in the courier, but

[00:17:09] anyways, so the courier or iron bark as it

[00:17:14] began sort of its life was written by Tom O'Connor, who Scott mentioned earlier.

[00:17:20] And it was pretty early in his career.

[00:17:23] He'd done in 2012, an action film called fire with fire with Josh Duomo,

[00:17:28] Rosario Dawson and Bruce Willis.

[00:17:30] And I never really heard too much about this movie.

[00:17:33] I think it was maybe a direct to video release because it didn't play

[00:17:37] in theaters here, at least in my neck of the woods.

[00:17:40] Um, but it was actually 2017 the hit man's bodyguard that put O'Connor on the map.

[00:17:45] And obviously that movie span, uh, spawned a sequel as well, but it was really

[00:17:49] following up the hit man's bodyguard that led into the courier.

[00:17:54] And so I'm going to let him talk all about how that actually happened in

[00:17:58] the interview, but that's basically some context as to who the writer of the

[00:18:01] film is and notably an American writer as well, which you might not

[00:18:05] think watching the courier, so he'll talk a bit about that as well and

[00:18:09] perhaps how that informed the storytelling that transpires in the film.

[00:18:14] Yeah, because it's interesting thing we get into an interview, but we

[00:18:17] could just talk about for a second is this film doesn't feel

[00:18:20] particularly Americanized.

[00:18:22] I mean, using it as a counterpoint to say bridge of spies, that

[00:18:24] feels like a very American film.

[00:18:27] This feels like it's from the same mold of things like Tickety

[00:18:30] Taylor's soldier spy, which actually wasn't directed by a Brit, but

[00:18:33] still has that sort of British, uh, pessimism to it.

[00:18:37] Sure.

[00:18:38] Yeah.

[00:18:38] Which you bring every single week.

[00:18:40] Right?

[00:18:40] That's, uh, that's the magic that I've rained down on you.

[00:18:45] Well, it's a very British story.

[00:18:48] I mean, there's very few American characters in it and you don't really

[00:18:52] get much more British than the Greville Wynn character.

[00:18:56] I mean the name alone.

[00:18:57] Yeah.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:59] Is it a gentleman's club or whatever used to call those

[00:19:01] things at the beginning he's playing golf.

[00:19:03] He is schmoozing people with port and brandy.

[00:19:06] And it feels very much of that ilk that I will never be part of.

[00:19:13] No, that attitude.

[00:19:14] Um, so the movie was directed by Dominic Cook, who will also be

[00:19:18] obviously joining us on the show, but he's an English writer director

[00:19:21] who started out just as a TV runner and then kind of found his place,

[00:19:26] which was in theater and he started a theater company called Pan Optic.

[00:19:32] And he ran that for two years and then became an assistant director

[00:19:35] at the Royal Shakespearean company.

[00:19:37] And going forward, bounced between the Royal Shakespearean company

[00:19:39] and the Royal court theater.

[00:19:41] And over the course of his career, um, has won five Olivier awards

[00:19:46] for productions on that he did of the crucible, Ma Rainey's

[00:19:50] black bottom and Follies.

[00:19:52] And he's currently, I believe adapting Follies for the big screen.

[00:19:56] It's going to be his latest film.

[00:19:57] Um, if it happens, um, he was also actually in 2014,

[00:20:01] appointed the commander of the order of the British Empire

[00:20:04] for his work in drama.

[00:20:05] So a very, very esteemed and respected theater director here.

[00:20:11] And I will just jump in because I can hear you all writing emails to us now.

[00:20:14] It's the Royal Shakespeare company.

[00:20:16] Cam is just wrong.

[00:20:18] That's embarrassing as an English major.

[00:20:19] So, uh, it really is.

[00:20:21] You love Shakespeare.

[00:20:22] You've got his entire works in your house.

[00:20:24] I don't think I've read an entire Shakespeare all the

[00:20:26] way through, and I know that.

[00:20:28] We did go to the globe though.

[00:20:29] When I was in London, I almost fell asleep.

[00:20:31] Moving on.

[00:20:32] Yes.

[00:20:32] As I recall.

[00:20:33] Yes.

[00:20:33] Uh, so dominant cook, um, in terms of being, you know, directing TV and film,

[00:20:40] he worked on a national theater live production of comedy of errors, which

[00:20:43] would have been a televised version or not a televised, but, uh, version

[00:20:47] of the play that he would stage.

[00:20:49] It was actually shown in theaters.

[00:20:50] Um, he also did three episodes of the hollow crown series and then led

[00:20:55] into a 2017 drama he made called on Chesnail beach, starring

[00:21:01] Saoirse Ronan and Billy Howie.

[00:21:03] And that movie didn't make too much of a mark, but that led into the

[00:21:07] courier, which was, I think, uh, a little more noticed when it came out.

[00:21:13] I think they certainly wanted it to be more notice when it came out.

[00:21:17] I think we'll get into that conversation in a minute, but this,

[00:21:19] this film is very much a COVID-19 victim.

[00:21:24] Sure.

[00:21:25] Yes.

[00:21:25] I will say though, like the courier there was awareness

[00:21:28] in North America about it.

[00:21:30] Whereas I would say on Chesnail beach didn't really cross the pond.

[00:21:35] I don't think it crossed many ponds or roads because I've never heard of it either.

[00:21:40] Okay.

[00:21:40] Well that's fair.

[00:21:41] Um, sorry, is that spelled C H E S N I L?

[00:21:45] It is.

[00:21:45] Yes.

[00:21:46] Is that not Chesil beach?

[00:21:48] Oh, yes.

[00:21:51] Come on in and get in there.

[00:21:54] It's correcting cam day.

[00:21:55] This episode is now brought to you by correcting cam.

[00:21:59] You know, one day I'm going to be able to correct you guys on like Canadian

[00:22:03] pronunciations for something or other.

[00:22:05] You guys don't like spell things weirdly.

[00:22:08] We have stuff like Worcestershire sauce.

[00:22:10] It's true.

[00:22:10] Yeah.

[00:22:11] You'll never have that.

[00:22:12] No.

[00:22:13] Nor would you want it.

[00:22:14] No, we do have like places like Tawason.

[00:22:16] Uh, so there's that, you know, some interesting spellings.

[00:22:19] Nanaimo?

[00:22:20] That's a weird one.

[00:22:21] Yeah, sure.

[00:22:21] Yeah.

[00:22:22] Um, so yeah, as we said, this movie began its life as iron

[00:22:27] bark and then was changed to the courier.

[00:22:28] And we'll get into the reasons for that with actually the writer in particular.

[00:22:32] So in terms of the production budget, I couldn't find it anywhere online.

[00:22:36] Um, but I would not have been big budget.

[00:22:39] Uh, it, as Scott said was released during the pandemic.

[00:22:44] So when we actually reviewed it on the show, it was because it was a,

[00:22:47] you know, on demand release.

[00:22:49] It was released in a few theaters in the UK over here in North America,

[00:22:53] not so much.

[00:22:54] And so like domestically, um, it did in North America, it did 6.6 million

[00:22:59] international 19.4 for worldwide total of $26 million worldwide.

[00:23:04] Again, people were not really rushing over to theaters at this point in time.

[00:23:07] So that really is no comment whatsoever on the movie's quality or whether

[00:23:12] people actually enjoyed it or not.

[00:23:14] Um, and for that year, it landed number 101 at the box office between

[00:23:18] chaos walking, which was the Daisy Ridley, Tom Holland, sci-fi film.

[00:23:23] That film has a hilarious history, by the way.

[00:23:25] If anyone wants to look up chaos walking, that film was shot in like 2016,

[00:23:29] I think, and it went through so many reshoots.

[00:23:32] They tried to bin it.

[00:23:33] Uh, yeah.

[00:23:34] Funny film to read about, not a fun film to watch.

[00:23:37] Yeah.

[00:23:38] And this landed one spot above Spencer, which was the Princess Diana story

[00:23:42] with Kristen Stewart.

[00:23:44] Oh, okay.

[00:23:45] Right.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:46] Very dark and depressing film.

[00:23:48] I saw it in theaters.

[00:23:48] Poor bedfellows right there.

[00:23:50] I'd say.

[00:23:50] Yeah, not exactly a great pairing.

[00:23:52] Um, and the top three for the year.

[00:23:54] Number one was Spider-Man No Way Home.

[00:23:57] Number two was The Battle at Lake Changxin and number three was Hi Mom.

[00:24:01] The latter two are Chinese productions that, you know, obviously box office

[00:24:05] was a little outside the norm when it came to the pandemic era where Chinese

[00:24:10] theaters were showing a lot of movies and actually having audiences show up.

[00:24:12] Not really the case in North America and much of the UK and Europe.

[00:24:17] For sure.

[00:24:17] I mean, just speaking to that sort of COVID-19 situation for a moment.

[00:24:21] I, I mean, I don't think this film would have pulled me back into theaters, even

[00:24:26] if it was shown around here.

[00:24:28] I know.

[00:24:28] I think my first film back was Tenet during COVID-19, but that was a big

[00:24:32] marquee release that demanded to be seen on the big screen.

[00:24:37] I wouldn't say the courier necessarily has to be seen on the big screen.

[00:24:40] No.

[00:24:41] And also it took quite a while to lure back older moviegoers who

[00:24:46] would have been more of the prime audience for this film.

[00:24:49] Like you're not going to get as many 20 year olds showing up to see the courier,

[00:24:52] but like they had a real problem for, it was about two years putting out, say

[00:24:57] R rated films or more serious dramas and actually having anyone show up.

[00:25:02] Well, just throwing it to you Ian for a second.

[00:25:04] Do you recall your first trip back to the theaters after COVID?

[00:25:09] I don't actually.

[00:25:10] I'm not a big movie goer.

[00:25:12] I'm much more comfortable watching it on a big screen at home, to be honest.

[00:25:17] The courier may well have tempted me out.

[00:25:20] I think I'm part of that demographic that Cam described there.

[00:25:26] So the trailer I thought was really strong with it.

[00:25:31] And I was seriously thinking about going and seeing it in the

[00:25:34] pictures, and then it came on paper view.

[00:25:36] And I thought, you know, why bother?

[00:25:40] Did you, actually, that's a good question.

[00:25:41] Cause I was sent, or Cam and I did declassify episode.

[00:25:45] So we were sent screeners at the film.

[00:25:46] We didn't have to pay for it, but Ian, did you find yourself paying for it?

[00:25:49] In the end, did you do the sort of PVOD system?

[00:25:52] I think it was, it was one, it was either on Netflix or Amazon prime.

[00:25:57] So I'd already got those subscriptions.

[00:25:58] So it wasn't a, you know, pay per view per se.

[00:26:02] It was already in the bundle for that particular channel.

[00:26:06] There was that sort of moment, wasn't there?

[00:26:07] But the PVOD was really important because you had stuff like, there

[00:26:10] was a couple of Disney films that went straight to PVOD, like Black

[00:26:13] Widow, I think did that day and date.

[00:26:15] Um, Black Widow did simultaneous.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:18] Um, Mulan, um, I, I don't remember if that was simultaneous.

[00:26:22] They may have just gone PVOD with Mulan.

[00:26:24] I think they did.

[00:26:24] I think that was straight to Disney plus, but you had to pay money for it.

[00:26:27] Yeah.

[00:26:28] And the thing about the Courier is I would guess it probably

[00:26:32] wasn't hugely successful on PVOD.

[00:26:35] It feels like a movie that needs more of like an, you know, an

[00:26:37] Amazon or a Netflix or something, like a streaming model to really grab eyeballs.

[00:26:43] I just don't know, like when you present a list of movies that people pay for.

[00:26:47] If there is likely to buy something like the Courier versus

[00:26:50] a Mulan or a Black Widow.

[00:26:51] Well, it doesn't have that sort of water cooler urgency to it.

[00:26:55] Like, it doesn't feel like you have to see it like back when Marvel was

[00:26:58] important, for instance, where you had to see the latest Marvel film in

[00:27:01] the first weekend so you can go to work the next week and talk about,

[00:27:04] Oh, guess what Thor did in CG?

[00:27:06] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:07] It doesn't have that moment necessarily.

[00:27:10] So yeah, maybe that maybe it being on Netflix or Amazon is its perfect home.

[00:27:16] And you just see Benedict Cumberbatch and you're going to have a certain

[00:27:18] segment of audience members who are going to go, Oh, I'd like to

[00:27:20] see things because I like him.

[00:27:22] It's the penguins guy.

[00:27:24] Exactly.

[00:27:25] Exactly.

[00:27:25] Yes.

[00:27:27] But it's interesting, you know, I think this is like our second time

[00:27:31] doing it declassified than going into a full review after that.

[00:27:35] I think so.

[00:27:35] Yeah.

[00:27:36] Yeah.

[00:27:37] And it's interesting to see sort of the conversation continue about this film.

[00:27:42] People have sort of caught up with it since it had that, that sort of

[00:27:45] lull on release because of things like COVID and the world ending

[00:27:48] and bits and bobs like that.

[00:27:50] But I think since then, spy movie fans have caught up with this

[00:27:53] film because I mean, I put out a post about the other day and had

[00:27:56] a lot of warm responses to it.

[00:27:57] A lot of people really, really enjoyed this film.

[00:28:00] Yeah.

[00:28:01] I mean, it definitely is, I think more out there.

[00:28:03] Even I picked up the Blu-ray at my local library and had several copies.

[00:28:08] So there's a segment of the audience that is just going to pick it up

[00:28:11] that way as well, it feels like there's a lot of movies that you and I have

[00:28:15] covered on declassifieds that were perhaps streaming releases or whatever

[00:28:19] that just disappeared down the void.

[00:28:21] Whereas I feel like the career actually still is getting play

[00:28:26] without remorse.

[00:28:27] What happened to that film?

[00:28:28] It's getting a sequel apparently.

[00:28:30] So who knows?

[00:28:31] Oh, I can't wait for that.

[00:28:33] Ian, I'll just ask you then, because obviously you're part of the Cold War world.

[00:28:38] I know obviously the podcast deals with the real life situations and spies,

[00:28:42] but yeah, you have a great Facebook group, a lot of conversations happening

[00:28:46] there and a lot of listeners and a lot of engagement.

[00:28:49] Does this film ever sort of pop up in conversation when you're

[00:28:51] talking about Cold War films?

[00:28:53] It doesn't especially.

[00:28:57] It's generally not that much discussion about films in our group.

[00:29:03] I can't remember when this, you know, whether during COVID, I'm sure we

[00:29:07] would have discussed it because I would have put the trailer up in

[00:29:10] the Facebook group, and I think it's a good depiction of that time.

[00:29:20] As with any Hollywood movie, they take shortcuts in order to smooth out

[00:29:24] timelines and just make it easier to follow for a general audience.

[00:29:31] But, you know, I always think with any of these sort of films, as well

[00:29:34] as Bridge of Spies, is that if it gets people more interested in this

[00:29:39] period of history, then that's a good thing.

[00:29:43] Even if they take some liberties with the story, people will generally,

[00:29:48] if they're fascinated by it, Google it more and do further investigation

[00:29:52] and actually find out more about the story and hopefully end up on

[00:29:55] Cold War conversations as well.

[00:29:58] Well, I'll be interested to hear from your listeners what they think of

[00:30:00] the film when we put this episode out.

[00:30:01] It'd be an interesting conversation, but a lot of people who have a lot

[00:30:04] of knowledge about what really happened applying it to sort of this

[00:30:08] slightly heightened world of the film.

[00:30:10] And speaking of the courier, I think it's time to talk about the film.

[00:30:14] Cam and I have already sort of shared some of our thoughts.

[00:30:16] So Ian, I want to throw it to you first.

[00:30:17] You're our guest.

[00:30:19] You've sat down, you've watched the courier for us.

[00:30:21] What do you think of the courier?

[00:30:23] I like it.

[00:30:24] I think it's, it's got a really good period feel to it.

[00:30:29] I think the Cumberbatch's Greville Wynn, I mean, if you've actually

[00:30:34] seen photos of Greville Wynn, he looks, he looks the part.

[00:30:39] I think he carries off from what I know of Greville Wynn and some of

[00:30:44] the TV footage or film footage there is of Greville Wynn speaking.

[00:30:48] He's done a lot of work about around the character, as you would

[00:30:52] expect with Benedict Cumberbatch.

[00:30:54] And he really goes in for the hardcore.

[00:30:56] I've been in a Soviet prison for quite a few months look later on in the film,

[00:31:04] which I'm sure we'll discuss as well.

[00:31:08] But I think, you know, they've gone to a lot of effort to get the,

[00:31:12] uh, the details right.

[00:31:14] So the plane that he's, the airliner that they use is a British airliner

[00:31:22] of that period, a Vickers Viscount.

[00:31:25] Um, so that, you know, they haven't just used any old

[00:31:28] aircraft or, or taken shortcuts there.

[00:31:32] Um, and generally it covers the story really well.

[00:31:36] It follows more or less the storyline.

[00:31:40] There's a few bits that as I said, it sort of abbreviates.

[00:31:44] Um, but I really enjoyed it and watching it another time, you know, watching it

[00:31:50] again, I thought actually this is even better than what I thought it was

[00:31:54] the last time I watched it.

[00:31:56] Well, I had a question for you, Ian, because you've covered so many

[00:31:58] Cold War stories over the course of your podcast, like how familiar

[00:32:02] were you with this story?

[00:32:04] I was quite familiar with it because I did do an episode on Pankowski,

[00:32:09] um, the, uh, the GRU, uh, Soviet spy.

[00:32:13] So I was familiar with it and it, and also the story sort of starts in the

[00:32:18] same year as the, the shoot down of Gary Powers.

[00:32:22] So as you said, Scott, there's a direct link with bridge of spies here

[00:32:27] because it's exactly the, uh, the same period.

[00:32:30] Um, you know, there's some bits that they, um, abbreviate because

[00:32:36] it's not always clear as to how Pankowski is, um, sort of core in the end.

[00:32:44] You know, you've got that surveillance of him.

[00:32:46] Yeah.

[00:32:47] Um, but, um, the, the actual truth of the matter was, is that there

[00:32:52] was a British spy called George Blake that was working for the KGB and,

[00:32:58] um, he revealed that somebody at the British embassy was actually MI6.

[00:33:04] So the Soviets trailed this guy and his wife, and it turned out his wife was

[00:33:11] the person who was receiving the information from Pankowski.

[00:33:14] She was basically wandering around Moscow with her child in a pram.

[00:33:18] She'd meet up with Pankowski and he dropped the documents into the pram.

[00:33:25] And I don't think that's apparent in the film.

[00:33:28] No, it's interesting.

[00:33:30] Like there's definitely a movie you could make out of this story.

[00:33:33] There'd be much more of like a procedural or much more of like the

[00:33:36] fly on the wall observation of the events.

[00:33:40] And it's very, like, I think when you watch the movie, very clear that they

[00:33:43] were much more interested in the relationships than kind of the, uh,

[00:33:47] even what could feel like, like the Wikipedia greatest hits.

[00:33:51] Yeah.

[00:33:51] Because, I mean, it's a bit of a comedy of error.

[00:33:53] I mean, when Pankowski first tries to contact the Americans, first of all,

[00:34:00] um, he basically approaches a couple of American students in Moscow and hands

[00:34:05] them a package and says, take that to the U S embassy.

[00:34:08] And of course they're thinking, oh, we've been set up here.

[00:34:11] Um, but eventually one of them believes him and takes the

[00:34:14] package to the U S embassy.

[00:34:16] The CIA think it's a trick for quite some time.

[00:34:22] And then eventually they think, well, actually, yeah, let's try and do,

[00:34:25] uh, try and contact this guy.

[00:34:27] They make a real mess of it.

[00:34:29] And then they get the British involved because they know the British are more

[00:34:32] experienced in running agents in Moscow.

[00:34:35] Um, and that's really where the downfall starts because obviously there's

[00:34:40] this leak within MI six with George Blake, who then tells the Soviets about

[00:34:46] this person in the, uh, the British embassy who's working for MI six.

[00:34:51] Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, the backstory, there's a load more

[00:34:57] detail that is, is a really interesting spy story in itself.

[00:35:01] So I would recommend people to, uh, you know, look, look at that because

[00:35:06] there's a really interesting story behind it.

[00:35:09] It's always tough when you've got a film based on real events, especially

[00:35:15] real events when we don't know all of the answers because it's hidden behind

[00:35:18] all these closed doors of, you know, classified documents and things like that.

[00:35:23] And people are being scrubbed out of history because you kind of have to fill

[00:35:26] in the blanks yourself and I, I tip my hat to anyone who can bring a film

[00:35:32] in that's this good in my book, which I'll get to in a minute and it make

[00:35:37] it feel believable and realistic at the same time, but also entertaining.

[00:35:41] Hmm.

[00:35:42] And maybe I'll just sort of segue cam if you don't

[00:35:44] mind into my thoughts about it.

[00:35:46] Swing away.

[00:35:48] I, I do love this film.

[00:35:51] I had a lot of, I think I was moderately pleased with it when we

[00:35:55] first watched it, but this second time watching it, I think I spent a lot more

[00:35:59] time focusing on the character work and how they build that up.

[00:36:04] And I think it's such a masterstroke too, because I know I could, you know,

[00:36:07] I'm not an expert like Ian is in, you know, the story very well.

[00:36:10] So you can kind of compare the reality to the fiction here and find

[00:36:14] out what, you know, what is really happening and compare and contrast.

[00:36:18] I don't know much about that side of things.

[00:36:20] So I'm looking at more as a piece of film.

[00:36:22] You're an expert on Condorman.

[00:36:24] So unless he's soaring through the sky, then, you know.

[00:36:27] That's all I've got.

[00:36:28] Michael Crawford is the man, but we're not here to talk about our flying

[00:36:31] spying, death defying man of the hour.

[00:36:35] It's so smart to base this story on an everyman.

[00:36:40] You know, he is your gateway into this world.

[00:36:44] He is me.

[00:36:45] He is you.

[00:36:46] He is the listener, you guys at home.

[00:36:48] He is plucked out of just living his normal life with his wife and kid.

[00:36:53] And sent off to be a spy in Russia at the height of the Cold War.

[00:36:59] And it's the scariest thing you could do.

[00:37:02] I cannot imagine what Greville was going through during

[00:37:07] actually doing this in real life.

[00:37:09] And I think Benedict Cumberbatch is a master stroke when it comes to casting.

[00:37:14] But I think he's also held up by a wonderful cast of people around him.

[00:37:18] I'm going to be the first person to take a punt at saying

[00:37:20] the guy's name, Mirab, Nanitzi.

[00:37:23] Nanitzi, I can't pronounce that very well, I'm sorry.

[00:37:25] But Rachel Brosnahan is also fantastic.

[00:37:28] This is a great cast.

[00:37:30] Angus Wright is in there too.

[00:37:31] Jess Buckley is fantastic.

[00:37:33] And I mean, I've got my criticisms, which I'll get to in a bit.

[00:37:38] But I just think if you're looking for one of those sort of.

[00:37:43] Reality based Cold War

[00:37:45] esque spy films really go with the nitty gritty of spycraft,

[00:37:49] but are entertaining at the same time.

[00:37:51] I can't pick many better than this.

[00:37:54] Well, you mentioned how it has a lot of parallels with Bridge of Spies

[00:37:57] and you can really see that.

[00:37:59] But the thing that I think you kind of cued in on something there,

[00:38:02] which is you said he's an everyman and Tom Hanks is kind of like

[00:38:07] an everyman, but that character, that real person, obviously,

[00:38:10] who took part in the events of Bridge of Spies, not really an everyman,

[00:38:13] like incredibly successful lawyer, somewhat of a public figure.

[00:38:19] And, you know, this diplomat being sent in, that's very different

[00:38:23] than a guy who's basically a salesman being sent into,

[00:38:26] you know, a world he really doesn't understand.

[00:38:29] Like Tom Hanks is character in that film.

[00:38:32] Someone understands what he has to do.

[00:38:34] He understands diplomacy and how to talk to people,

[00:38:37] even if the situation around him is intense.

[00:38:39] Whereas like that is something that I think really works for the courier,

[00:38:42] which is like this is a real fish out of water.

[00:38:45] And he has no idea what's going on half the time.

[00:38:48] You know, it's the CIA and MI6 basically saying what they're going to do

[00:38:51] and telling him, don't worry about it. We'll figure it out.

[00:38:54] And there's a moment later in the film, you know, we've alluded to

[00:38:58] Benedict Cumberbatch, his character being put into

[00:39:00] the Russian prison and tortured and we'll talk about that, I'm sure.

[00:39:04] But the moment where he's picked up on the plane

[00:39:07] and he's saying, oh, I'm, you know, why are you picking me up?

[00:39:10] This is I didn't do anything wrong.

[00:39:11] And he's taken off the plane.

[00:39:13] That moment is the scariest moment in the entire film

[00:39:17] because he is completely without power in that situation.

[00:39:19] He has no skills to cope with it.

[00:39:21] He has not had years and years of MI6 training on how to cope with torture

[00:39:25] or anything. He is just it's you or me at the airport

[00:39:28] picked out of a line of by security taken off to a back room.

[00:39:31] We don't know what's going to happen to us.

[00:39:33] We're completely powerless in that moment.

[00:39:35] And that's terrifying.

[00:39:37] Well, what I love about that moment, too, is obviously he sees,

[00:39:39] you know, the police coming to get him, but also the guy sitting behind him

[00:39:44] is also part of the arrest.

[00:39:46] So it's like he's surrounded by people who are going to arrest him.

[00:39:49] Like, there's no friendly faces.

[00:39:51] There's no way out. Yeah.

[00:39:53] Yeah. So, yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[00:39:56] Cam, what about you?

[00:39:57] I really enjoy this movie a lot as well.

[00:39:59] And I think it does a fantastic job in a very unflashy way

[00:40:04] at condensing a multiyear story

[00:40:08] into a two hour package that is still compelling and doesn't feel choppy.

[00:40:12] You can get to the end and go, oh, they traded like five

[00:40:14] thousand documents or something like that.

[00:40:16] I didn't really feel like they were passing that many documents

[00:40:18] over the course of this movie.

[00:40:20] But it doesn't really matter because they, I think, succeed so well

[00:40:24] in nailing the core relationships that inform the entire story.

[00:40:28] I think like the friendship between the two men, you know, the salesman

[00:40:31] and this, you know, Russian who is passing the secrets back and forth.

[00:40:35] It's all grounded in things that are entirely recognizable

[00:40:37] to pretty much anyone watching the movie.

[00:40:40] It's them talking about their families, their home lives,

[00:40:43] you know, their aspirations for what they'd like the world to be like.

[00:40:47] These are all things that anyone could relate to watching the movie.

[00:40:50] And I think it does an incredibly good job at making that friendship

[00:40:55] count in about 45 minutes of screen time.

[00:40:58] And that's 45 minutes intercut with marital storylines.

[00:41:02] What's going on with MI6 and the CIA?

[00:41:05] You know, there's a lot of other business going on around it.

[00:41:07] And yet the building of that relationship over 45 minutes or so

[00:41:12] has to carry you through the entire second half of the movie

[00:41:14] where Benedict Cumberbatch really takes the spotlight

[00:41:17] and you get the prison visit and things like that.

[00:41:20] It is, I think, really impactful.

[00:41:22] It's not just the performance

[00:41:25] by Mareb Nanichy, but also like the way that character

[00:41:30] just looms over the whole movie. Right.

[00:41:33] Yeah. And I know I probably mangled that name,

[00:41:35] but there's going to be a lot of mangling of his name.

[00:41:37] And he deserves to have his name mentioned as many times as possible,

[00:41:40] because while Benedict Cumberbatch may be the star of the movie,

[00:41:43] I think he's the secret weapon that makes the movie work.

[00:41:46] Just keep a counter, guys, listening at home.

[00:41:48] How many times do you mispronounce his name and then let us know.

[00:41:51] Drop us an email.

[00:41:52] See how many you can count.

[00:41:53] How many times we mispronounce his name.

[00:41:55] I want to hear Ian have a go at it too.

[00:41:57] I'm not even going to go there.

[00:41:59] I'm sticking with Mareb. He's fine.

[00:42:03] No, he is brilliantly cast in this.

[00:42:08] I mean, as you'd imagine Penkovsky to be,

[00:42:13] I mean, I've not seen any footage of him speak.

[00:42:17] There are some photos of him and there's certainly a likeness there.

[00:42:24] And I think it comes across pretty well.

[00:42:28] I mean, for Penkovsky, I mean, he was doing this really for ideological reasons.

[00:42:35] He wanted to work for the West and he wanted to become a officer

[00:42:40] of either the British Army or the US Army.

[00:42:46] So but he was also a bit of a loose cannon.

[00:42:52] He was difficult to handle as an agent as well,

[00:42:57] because when he had the meetups in London,

[00:43:03] he would be out around the nightclubs and stuff like that.

[00:43:08] And I think there was some confusion when he was being interrogated by the KGB.

[00:43:16] They'd recorded a conversation that he'd had in a restaurant with Greville Wynn,

[00:43:23] where Penkovsky had said to Wynn, how's Zeth?

[00:43:27] And the KGB were very mystified by this conversation

[00:43:31] because they thought this must be a code name for somebody.

[00:43:34] And it turned out it was some girl that Penkovsky had met in a nightclub

[00:43:39] and he was asking Greville Wynn how she was.

[00:43:42] Was she still doing all right in London?

[00:43:45] Oh no, not the wholesome family man I'm seeing in the movie.

[00:43:48] I do appreciate a little bit of character they give to Penkovsky

[00:43:54] because he talks about how he wants to move to Montana

[00:43:58] and basically be a cowboy, which I just I love that image

[00:44:01] of Marab just riding around on a horse being a cowboy.

[00:44:05] But I was reminded of Sam Neal's character in Hunt for Red October,

[00:44:09] who also wanted to.

[00:44:11] Absolutely. I was going to say that.

[00:44:13] There we go.

[00:44:14] He wanted to move to Montana and be a cowboy.

[00:44:16] I think that's just a little nod to spy movie history there.

[00:44:19] Maybe that was his plan, I don't know.

[00:44:20] Wasn't that the same year too that Benedict Cumberbatch

[00:44:22] played a cowboy in Power of the Dog?

[00:44:25] Maybe.

[00:44:26] I think it was.

[00:44:27] Are we going back to horse cards all of a sudden?

[00:44:29] I think we are.

[00:44:30] Wow, throwback.

[00:44:33] Let's talk about some more things that we really liked about the films.

[00:44:36] Ian, I'm going to throw it to you.

[00:44:37] Something you want to call out a scene,

[00:44:39] a character, a performance, a moment that you really liked.

[00:44:42] Um, I think that the moment I really like,

[00:44:46] and it is sort of like the everyman piece in there,

[00:44:49] is when he is first recruited.

[00:44:51] When he sits down for that dinner and he says,

[00:44:56] you want me to be a spy?

[00:45:01] And it's almost like, and you can sort of understand it,

[00:45:08] it's exciting to think that you would be a spy.

[00:45:13] But obviously the implications of you said previously

[00:45:18] about what might happen if you get captured,

[00:45:20] but he's got this implicit trust

[00:45:23] that MI6 will pull the irons out of the fire at the last minute

[00:45:27] or ride over the hill with a cavalry or rescue him.

[00:45:34] And he's got this naivety as to exactly what he's getting into there.

[00:45:39] Well, I love that, you know, initially he's like,

[00:45:41] this sounds dangerous.

[00:45:43] And they say something like,

[00:45:45] if this were dangerous, you'd be at home right now.

[00:45:47] Like they're, I think, really underselling

[00:45:50] the potential threats of this.

[00:45:52] And I think it's done in a way that is actually really almost like amusing,

[00:45:57] but also like you're like, oh, this poor guy, this poor guy.

[00:46:00] I think he's been reading too many, like,

[00:46:03] at this point, Ian Fleming maybe,

[00:46:04] or maybe some Graham Greene spy novels

[00:46:06] and just got an idea in his head as to what a spy is like.

[00:46:09] And he's hoping he's being sent off with a DB5 to drive around.

[00:46:13] Actually, it wouldn't be a DB5 in the Fleming books,

[00:46:15] but sent to, you know,

[00:46:17] Gallivants around Europe and Shaggy's way through

[00:46:20] a nest of spies somewhere.

[00:46:21] But that is not the mission he is sent on.

[00:46:24] No, and I mean, also there's the moment too,

[00:46:27] where they realize that Penkovsky is in trouble

[00:46:31] and he's like, use me, send me in.

[00:46:33] But it's like really, what is this guy going to do?

[00:46:37] Let me at him.

[00:46:38] Let me at him.

[00:46:39] Yeah, I think he's in a little over his head.

[00:46:42] Yeah, he's got that sort of take.

[00:46:44] The problem is, and it's actually something

[00:46:45] I'll come to in dislikes maybe in a little while,

[00:46:48] but he, it's that classic spy movie cliche

[00:46:53] of they become a spy

[00:46:54] and then are instantly fantastic at being a spy.

[00:46:58] Is he though?

[00:47:00] Well, it does it, 5,000 documents later.

[00:47:03] But he's not really a spy, right?

[00:47:05] They're just kind of exchanging documents back and forth.

[00:47:08] And he, in the real story,

[00:47:12] he's not doing the main,

[00:47:14] the heavy lifting with the document exchanges.

[00:47:16] This woman whose husband is in MI6 with the pram,

[00:47:21] who's doing a lot of the document exchanges.

[00:47:26] Well, I guess they've amalgamated that for the film.

[00:47:30] But yeah, I think that is a great scene though,

[00:47:34] that restaurant scene and getting an idea of

[00:47:38] how they're manipulating him as well,

[00:47:39] how there's a slight bit of them

[00:47:42] twisting his arm without him knowing it.

[00:47:44] And it doesn't really wink at the audience either.

[00:47:47] You kind of pulled along with it,

[00:47:49] but you know that there are higher stakes

[00:47:52] and oh, don't worry, we'll pull you out.

[00:47:53] It'd be no problem.

[00:47:55] And I think like, you have Rachel Brosnahan

[00:47:57] in that scene as the CIA member

[00:48:00] who's obviously involved in this.

[00:48:03] And we talked to the writer about that character

[00:48:06] because it is a composite character

[00:48:08] of several individuals who are tied to the real events.

[00:48:11] And they made a real artistic choice

[00:48:13] with actually having a female character

[00:48:15] take that place in the movie.

[00:48:17] But I think this movie does an incredibly good job

[00:48:20] at writing a composite character

[00:48:21] who actually feels like an interesting

[00:48:24] and compelling individual.

[00:48:25] We don't know a ton about her,

[00:48:28] but I was consistently engaged

[00:48:30] with where she was involved throughout the story.

[00:48:32] Has a great scene with Jessie Buckley

[00:48:34] later in the movie as well.

[00:48:36] And I mean, a lot of movies, Scott,

[00:48:38] that we have covered have very bland composite characters

[00:48:43] that stick out like a sore thumb

[00:48:44] because you're like this feels like a fake person.

[00:48:48] They could really sort of hedge their bets

[00:48:50] and not really run with it,

[00:48:52] but you get someone like Brosnahan in,

[00:48:54] especially with her Miss Maisel pedigree.

[00:48:56] And she's used to doing period sort of comedies

[00:48:59] and dramas.

[00:49:00] She knows what she's doing in this era.

[00:49:01] She knows what she's portraying.

[00:49:03] And I think she really gets the assignment.

[00:49:05] I remember watching the Ipkis file TV show

[00:49:09] by ITV a year or so ago,

[00:49:11] and they've sort of really boosted up

[00:49:13] the gene character in that show

[00:49:18] to the point of stretching credulity a little bit.

[00:49:20] And you can feel it falling apart

[00:49:23] that she's given all this extra stuff.

[00:49:25] That's not the case here.

[00:49:27] Rachel Brosnahan's character

[00:49:28] feels completely at home in this story.

[00:49:31] I know that in reality,

[00:49:32] it was all just male CIA people working on this case.

[00:49:35] There wasn't really any women involved at all.

[00:49:38] But changing it to a woman means it doesn't matter to me.

[00:49:40] It gives you more representation

[00:49:42] and actually gives you that wonderful scene

[00:49:44] with Jess Berkeley later as well.

[00:49:45] I think you wouldn't get that

[00:49:46] without this character being a woman.

[00:49:48] So I think it paid off in the end.

[00:49:50] Yeah, I mean, ultimately, this isn't a documentary.

[00:49:52] It's supposed to be entertaining.

[00:49:54] And I think her contributions

[00:49:56] actually kind of increase the entertainment factor.

[00:49:59] I agree.

[00:50:00] I think if I'm going to jump on over to a thing I like,

[00:50:02] I have an idea what Kam's answer is going to be.

[00:50:05] So I'm going to let that be and let you do that one.

[00:50:09] Okay.

[00:50:09] I don't know if that's accurate, but we'll see.

[00:50:12] Okay.

[00:50:13] Well, I'm really rolling the dice here.

[00:50:15] But I just actually wanted to tip my hat to two things.

[00:50:20] And this is really coming under the umbrella

[00:50:22] of the look and feel of the film.

[00:50:24] Because the cinematography,

[00:50:26] who I should have the name of cinematographer, ready,

[00:50:28] I won't, I'll vamp whilst I look it up.

[00:50:31] But the cinematography is fantastic.

[00:50:33] But also the sort of costuming and the sets are great.

[00:50:36] And this has done, I mean, none of this is filmed in Russia.

[00:50:39] It's all just sort of done in post that stuff there.

[00:50:41] A lot of it shot in the UK.

[00:50:43] The cinematographer is Sean Bobbitt, by the way.

[00:50:46] Just added name in there.

[00:50:47] But they really capture that feel

[00:50:49] that I think also Bridge of Spies

[00:50:51] is very successful at doing.

[00:50:52] And I imagine this was done far cheaper

[00:50:54] than Bridge of Spies was.

[00:50:56] Yeah, significantly.

[00:50:58] That's a Spielberg production.

[00:51:00] They had a little more money to play with for sure.

[00:51:02] Yeah.

[00:51:03] Yeah, it just looks the part,

[00:51:05] specifically like the houses,

[00:51:07] both of their houses just feel real and lived in.

[00:51:11] Everything just feels like,

[00:51:13] almost like they had some people on set

[00:51:15] who knew what that era looked like

[00:51:17] and could really say from experience perhaps.

[00:51:20] What the offices should feel like,

[00:51:21] what the meetings should feel like,

[00:51:23] what the home should feel like.

[00:51:24] Nothing felt out of place.

[00:51:26] I'm not saying I was,

[00:51:27] some films have iPods lying around

[00:51:31] or something like that.

[00:51:32] But it just felt like they spent a lot of time

[00:51:34] making sure that the vibe was right

[00:51:36] so you could be drawn into the world more.

[00:51:38] Yeah.

[00:51:39] Well, the cinematographer, Sean Bobbitt,

[00:51:41] who you mentioned,

[00:51:42] actually works with Steve McQueen quite a bit

[00:51:44] and worked on 12 Years a Slave and Shame.

[00:51:47] So he's pretty visually accomplished

[00:51:50] and I'm pretty sure he's an Oscar nominee

[00:51:51] if not for 12 Years a Slave

[00:51:53] or a couple other things.

[00:51:55] But I love the shot at one point you have,

[00:51:59] it's kind of setting up the home life of Greville

[00:52:02] and you see him and his wife in the separate rooms

[00:52:06] and you see him in like the lounge

[00:52:07] and then her in the kitchen.

[00:52:08] The way those two rooms

[00:52:09] have their own distinct feel and vibe

[00:52:12] and that they are kind of occupying

[00:52:14] two very different places in the home

[00:52:16] and it looks so beautiful.

[00:52:18] You could frame that shot

[00:52:20] and that's not the only shot

[00:52:21] through the movie that looks that good.

[00:52:23] For sure.

[00:52:24] And I'll also note just something I picked up on.

[00:52:26] They do a real,

[00:52:27] they put a lot of effort in

[00:52:29] to making the homes of both Greville Wynn

[00:52:33] and Oleg Pinkovsky's character look very similar

[00:52:36] because they are these two men that are connected

[00:52:39] at least in the film world,

[00:52:40] maybe not so much in real life.

[00:52:42] But they're both idealistic men

[00:52:44] trying to do the right thing for the world

[00:52:46] but also their home lives are very similar

[00:52:48] with how their families are set up.

[00:52:50] Those are how the houses are set up

[00:52:51] and how they sort of conduct their business day to day.

[00:52:54] There is a lot of work to go into

[00:52:56] to sort of almost provide like a mirror image

[00:52:58] between the two of them.

[00:53:00] It's subtle, it doesn't scream at you

[00:53:02] that they're doing it

[00:53:02] but I just think it's a nice touch.

[00:53:04] Yeah, I mean, they do a very good job

[00:53:06] at creating a connection between the two of them.

[00:53:08] I like how you see them visiting the play

[00:53:10] or the ballet I should say

[00:53:13] and how they both have this emotional involvement

[00:53:15] but you have like Khrushchev

[00:53:17] up in the balcony looking over them.

[00:53:19] So it's kind of like the eyes of Russia

[00:53:20] always on top of them

[00:53:22] and that's like their only real escape

[00:53:23] is that kind of getting sucked into the ballet.

[00:53:28] I think the cinematography

[00:53:29] is particularly good with this.

[00:53:30] I mean, it feels right.

[00:53:34] It feels like they've really got

[00:53:36] the early 60s captured well.

[00:53:39] Although I was irritated to see

[00:53:42] because I looked for bloopers

[00:53:43] and stuff like that

[00:53:44] and apparently somebody criticized the fact

[00:53:46] that you could hear a police siren in one scene

[00:53:49] and the British police only had bells

[00:53:52] on their squad cars in the 1960s.

[00:53:55] They didn't have sirens

[00:53:56] but you're naturally going to expect that

[00:53:58] from somebody.

[00:54:00] Oh boo, disavowed.

[00:54:02] Yeah, we're cancelling the podcast.

[00:54:05] We're done.

[00:54:05] I'm sure if I went into the goofs page of IMDb

[00:54:07] there'd be some real eye rolling goofs in there.

[00:54:10] There always are.

[00:54:12] There always are.

[00:54:13] Cam, I presumed I knew what you were going to say

[00:54:16] but why don't you prove me wrong anyway?

[00:54:18] I was going to talk just about the relationships

[00:54:21] and the way that they're so effectively conveyed.

[00:54:24] And we've talked about, obviously,

[00:54:26] you know, Greville and Oleg,

[00:54:28] the scenes they have together.

[00:54:29] You know, I mentioned the ballet

[00:54:31] but just the kind of gentle discussions

[00:54:34] they have about who they are as people.

[00:54:36] But then also something that would be

[00:54:39] completely sidelined

[00:54:40] or turn into very one note material,

[00:54:43] the relationship between Greville and his wife.

[00:54:46] And I think there's some really clever stuff going on

[00:54:48] because Jessie Buckley,

[00:54:49] you don't cast her and give her just like generic stuff.

[00:54:53] That's no, that's not acceptable.

[00:54:55] And so I like how she is often too smart

[00:54:59] for the situation.

[00:55:00] She's someone who's going, this doesn't add up.

[00:55:02] And there is, you know, references to him

[00:55:05] having had an affair in the past.

[00:55:06] And so she is onto him.

[00:55:08] And I love the way that she has to play an active role

[00:55:12] throughout the course of the movie

[00:55:13] at a certain point, going to the prison to see him.

[00:55:16] And she has a great moment there

[00:55:19] where she basically says, it's looking good.

[00:55:21] You may only have to do another year or two.

[00:55:23] It's like, oh my God,

[00:55:25] we've seen what this man has gone through.

[00:55:27] But there's like a real strength to her

[00:55:29] and intelligence.

[00:55:30] And there are so many movies about

[00:55:33] men in dramatic historical situations

[00:55:35] where you have the woman at home

[00:55:37] and there's a lot of people that have won Oscars

[00:55:39] for the woman at home roles.

[00:55:40] But this one actually feels like one where

[00:55:42] the writer and the director actively cared

[00:55:44] about making that a compelling figure.

[00:55:46] It feels like a real relationship.

[00:55:51] You could very easily just soft soap that

[00:55:54] and just have it almost like as a background piece.

[00:55:57] But it becomes quite, well,

[00:55:59] it does become a central part of the film.

[00:56:03] Her suspicions about what he's up to

[00:56:07] and the inference there that

[00:56:10] he did have an affair previously.

[00:56:14] Yeah, you could argue that you could take 10 minutes

[00:56:18] out of this film and really sort of pair down

[00:56:19] that character.

[00:56:20] And maybe the end result would still be the same.

[00:56:24] But I think it just adds a touch of

[00:56:26] a splash of color to this whole story.

[00:56:29] Knowing that there is a real person behind this spy,

[00:56:32] knowing that there is a real relationship in there

[00:56:34] and that you actually care about

[00:56:36] what the wife is going through

[00:56:38] despite this big massive stakes of the Cuban missile crisis.

[00:56:41] You care about his wife and their relationship.

[00:56:46] Be interesting to whether Jesse Berkeley

[00:56:50] looked at that script and thought,

[00:56:51] yeah, this is something I can really get my teeth into.

[00:56:56] And if it hadn't have been that script,

[00:56:58] whether she would have turned it down

[00:57:00] because it was too vanilla.

[00:57:04] There is a story in our interview

[00:57:06] with Tom O'Connor late this week about that

[00:57:07] and how that character came to be.

[00:57:09] So obviously it's based on a real person,

[00:57:12] but look out for that.

[00:57:13] We'll have a bit more information there.

[00:57:15] I did just want to add in an extra like

[00:57:19] that no one's mentioned,

[00:57:20] but we've talked about it a little bit

[00:57:22] and I'm assuming it's in everyone's like section.

[00:57:24] And that is, I mean, I'm not saying I like it,

[00:57:26] but the Greville being in prison

[00:57:29] and the treatment there

[00:57:30] and the physical transformation of Benedict Cumberbatch

[00:57:33] actually physically went through.

[00:57:35] It's enhanced with digital effects.

[00:57:38] He did drop about 10 kg in weight.

[00:57:41] I'm not sure what that is in pounds.

[00:57:42] I'm sorry, North Americans.

[00:57:45] For this role, he committed to it

[00:57:47] as one of the things that really attracted him

[00:57:48] to doing this role was actually getting

[00:57:50] to do a physical performance like that.

[00:57:52] And we've seen much like the sort of wife at home characters,

[00:57:56] we've seen plenty of torture scenes in spy movies.

[00:57:58] And there aren't many that leave an impression on me

[00:58:01] like this one does.

[00:58:02] Well, you can look at Zero Dark Thirty,

[00:58:05] which has very graphic torture scenes.

[00:58:10] And they definitely are revolting to look at,

[00:58:13] but this is more of an emotional punch.

[00:58:15] When you see what this character goes through

[00:58:18] over that period of time,

[00:58:20] and what I think is the big gut punch

[00:58:22] is when you have him sat down

[00:58:24] in the interrogation room opposite Oleg

[00:58:27] and you see what Oleg looks like.

[00:58:30] And you feel so much for that character

[00:58:34] and the fact that they don't specifically

[00:58:35] tell you what they've been doing to him,

[00:58:37] which apparently was quite horrific.

[00:58:38] I've read some things.

[00:58:39] It really sticks with you.

[00:58:41] Yeah, it really does stick with you

[00:58:43] in that moment in the movie.

[00:58:45] And it's actually quite good in the sense of the trailer,

[00:58:48] or at least the one I watched today,

[00:58:49] doesn't really reveal much about

[00:58:51] what happens to him in the prison.

[00:58:52] So you do get this physical transformation reveal

[00:58:55] in the film and it hits you like,

[00:58:57] oh, I did not see that coming.

[00:58:59] I did not know we were going to see him

[00:59:00] sort of drop all that weight and look so powerless.

[00:59:04] And there's a real, there's a nice touch

[00:59:06] that I noticed on my second viewing

[00:59:09] with Benedict Cumberbatch and push-ups.

[00:59:11] Yeah.

[00:59:13] Early in the film he's not able to do a push-up.

[00:59:16] As he gets better at spying,

[00:59:17] he's actually able to do a few.

[00:59:18] He's getting stronger.

[00:59:19] And then as he's in prison,

[00:59:20] he loses the ability to do a push-up again

[00:59:22] because he becomes beaten down and weak

[00:59:25] because of that.

[00:59:25] And it's just like a showing of his sort of power

[00:59:27] going up and down

[00:59:28] and then taking his power away in prison.

[00:59:30] And I thought that was really nice.

[00:59:32] And I think the Jesse Buckeye scene was great too.

[00:59:35] And it reminded me a lot of the BBC adaptation of 1984.

[00:59:40] Okay.

[00:59:40] Where you see John Hurt go through

[00:59:43] the torture in the Ministry of Truth,

[00:59:46] I think it is in that sequence there.

[00:59:48] And he doesn't do the whole weight drop thing,

[00:59:50] but it is quite harrowing to watch that,

[00:59:53] especially the way they sort of shoot it

[00:59:55] with the one light dropping down

[00:59:56] and everything like that.

[00:59:57] Like this is a well put together moment

[01:00:01] and I think it will catch people off guard

[01:00:04] and it will leave an impression on you.

[01:00:06] It's a great moment during the prison sequence

[01:00:09] where you have like kind of the people

[01:00:11] or whatever in the door

[01:00:12] and it's shot through that

[01:00:14] and you see Benedict Cumberbatch

[01:00:15] just melting down inside the room.

[01:00:18] And like, I remember that moment

[01:00:19] has like real visceral impact.

[01:00:20] And it's not overly graphic or overly intense.

[01:00:24] It just really conveys the experience

[01:00:26] that he's going through.

[01:00:28] And it's also, it comes back

[01:00:29] to that every man view as well.

[01:00:32] He's not been trained for this.

[01:00:34] He's not even been told what to say

[01:00:37] or anything like that.

[01:00:40] And you try and imagine yourself

[01:00:42] in that situation.

[01:00:45] And as you say,

[01:00:46] it starts with being pulled off the plane

[01:00:48] and then just goes downhill rapidly

[01:00:52] and over a long period of time.

[01:00:54] I would sing like a canary.

[01:00:56] They would get everything out of me.

[01:00:58] I would not last very long.

[01:01:00] I saw the look of that soup in there.

[01:01:03] I don't know.

[01:01:04] I think I'm giving it up pretty quick.

[01:01:06] I'd be on the plane still.

[01:01:09] I'd have given it all up

[01:01:10] just sitting on the plane.

[01:01:11] Listen, let's all sit down and talk, shall we?

[01:01:14] I've got details.

[01:01:15] Let's have a nice cup of tea.

[01:01:17] Get your notepads.

[01:01:21] We interrupt this program

[01:01:22] to bring you a special report.

[01:01:24] Red Alert, Spy Hards,

[01:01:26] we are shaking things up

[01:01:27] over on the Patreon page.

[01:01:29] That's right.

[01:01:30] We are launching an exclusive new show

[01:01:32] where we tackle the exploits

[01:01:34] of the small screen's greatest secret agents

[01:01:36] like Jack Bauer, George Smiley and beyond.

[01:01:40] And don't forget every month

[01:01:42] you also get two Agents in the Field episodes

[01:01:45] where we decode the adventures

[01:01:48] of your favorite spy actors

[01:01:50] in their biggest non-spy movies.

[01:01:52] But cab, tell the people what we have.

[01:01:55] Coming up next.

[01:01:56] Well, Scott, in our latest episode

[01:01:58] of On the Small Screen,

[01:01:59] we're going to look at 2008's

[01:02:02] 24 redemption TV movie.

[01:02:05] Will Kiefer Sutherland deliver

[01:02:06] or will this be a Jack Bauer?

[01:02:09] So strap on your condorman wings

[01:02:11] and soar into the future with us

[01:02:14] over at patreon.com slash spyhards.

[01:02:17] But before Big O zaps us

[01:02:19] with a red pulsating laser,

[01:02:21] let's get back to the Spy Jinx.

[01:02:27] All right, let's move on over to dislikes.

[01:02:31] Critics we have of the film.

[01:02:32] I have a couple of small ones,

[01:02:34] but Ian, I'm keen to hear from you first.

[01:02:36] Is there anything you'd like to sort of

[01:02:37] pick up about the film?

[01:02:39] I don't think so.

[01:02:40] I've sort of spoken about it

[01:02:41] because I'm looking at it from the,

[01:02:43] you know, the real story

[01:02:45] to see where, you know,

[01:02:46] where they've done shortcuts

[01:02:48] and stuff like that.

[01:02:50] And it sticks really close to the story.

[01:02:55] It does take a few liberties around the fact,

[01:02:59] you know, there's a,

[01:03:00] they think that the GRU knew

[01:03:05] that Penkovsky was a double agent

[01:03:08] for about a year before he was arrested,

[01:03:11] but they wanted to follow him.

[01:03:13] And that isn't apparent.

[01:03:14] It seems like things move very quickly

[01:03:18] in the film and I get why they,

[01:03:20] you know, why they do that.

[01:03:23] So, you know, I guess my,

[01:03:26] you know, that would be my criticism

[01:03:28] is the, you know, how far away

[01:03:31] some bits of it are from the truth.

[01:03:34] But in terms of the general story

[01:03:37] and the layout of it,

[01:03:40] it works for me.

[01:03:43] I don't think they've taken that many liberties

[01:03:46] and they've managed to make

[01:03:47] a really good drama out of,

[01:03:50] I would say probably 90% factual,

[01:03:54] you know, storyline

[01:03:55] that they've put together there.

[01:03:56] Obviously they're making up,

[01:03:59] you know, the dialogue

[01:04:02] because, you know, they won't know that.

[01:04:06] But there's nothing really major

[01:04:08] that leaps out that I would criticize about it.

[01:04:12] I think it's, you know,

[01:04:13] great casting, great cinematography

[01:04:16] and it's Cold War.

[01:04:17] What's not to like?

[01:04:19] Well, that actually does lead me to a question

[01:04:24] about your sort of Cold War knowledge

[01:04:25] because as you say,

[01:04:26] you're coming at this from having

[01:04:29] prior knowledge of the actual real events

[01:04:31] or at least some before you watch the film.

[01:04:32] Maybe there's some more reading.

[01:04:33] You've obviously had an episode

[01:04:34] on one of the characters in this too.

[01:04:37] When it comes to watching more,

[01:04:39] you know, Cold War based films,

[01:04:41] not just spy movies,

[01:04:42] but films set during the Cold War,

[01:04:44] do you find that it's actually hard

[01:04:46] for you to watch ones

[01:04:47] that are based on real life events

[01:04:49] because you find yourself

[01:04:51] drawing those comparisons

[01:04:52] or do you actually like it

[01:04:53] when they are based on real events?

[01:04:56] Well, I guess it can spoil a film

[01:04:59] because you know what's going to happen.

[01:05:03] Because you know

[01:05:04] what the historical side of it is.

[01:05:05] But then some films do put a twist at the end

[01:05:08] where it doesn't actually follow

[01:05:12] historical fact.

[01:05:13] Not really.

[01:05:14] I enjoy most of them.

[01:05:16] I mean, some of the fiction ones.

[01:05:19] I mean, you mentioned the ITV IPCrest file,

[01:05:23] which I just didn't like.

[01:05:26] I just felt it was a bit.

[01:05:28] They tried too hard to make it look

[01:05:31] like the 1960s or whenever,

[01:05:34] you know, the period it was.

[01:05:36] It was set in.

[01:05:37] Whereas here, you know,

[01:05:39] you've got some great performances

[01:05:43] some nice understated performances as well.

[01:05:46] You know, the relationship between them.

[01:05:48] And that was a very important part of this story

[01:05:50] is they built up this really strong friendship.

[01:05:54] And you know,

[01:05:56] Wynn says, you know,

[01:05:58] he would never betray me.

[01:05:59] He would never betray me.

[01:06:00] He had that trust in Pankowski there.

[01:06:06] And yeah, I think it's as accurate

[01:06:10] as you could do in a film of that story

[01:06:15] within two hours, to be fair.

[01:06:17] I have a question for you, Ian,

[01:06:19] because you came on last time

[01:06:20] to talk about Bridge of Spies,

[01:06:21] a movie that has a lot in common with this movie.

[01:06:24] Quality aside or enjoyment aside,

[01:06:26] which do you think was better

[01:06:27] at translating kind of the real world story?

[01:06:31] I think this was The Courier.

[01:06:33] Interesting.

[01:06:35] Because the relationship side,

[01:06:39] the relationship between the characters

[01:06:41] is more believable.

[01:06:43] I mean, with Bridge of Spies,

[01:06:45] you've got that great relationship

[01:06:46] with Tom Hanks and Rylance there.

[01:06:50] I think that works well.

[01:06:52] But I think, you know,

[01:06:55] the relationship between Greville Wynn

[01:06:58] and his wife, as you say,

[01:06:59] and the relationship with Pankowski,

[01:07:03] there's some nice nuances in there

[01:07:05] that I'm not certain you get from Bridge of Spies.

[01:07:11] I mean, it's difficult.

[01:07:13] I'm trying to think of bits of the two.

[01:07:16] But I think because this is the most recent one

[01:07:18] I've seen of the two,

[01:07:20] you inevitably see more details in it

[01:07:23] that you like or that you dislike.

[01:07:29] But yeah, I think this one

[01:07:31] is a more accurate version of Bridge of Spies.

[01:07:34] Accurate representation of the pressures

[01:07:37] of being a spy or being involved in espionage.

[01:07:43] And actually, Bridge of Spies

[01:07:45] is kind of a mark against that one.

[01:07:47] It's actually the relationship

[01:07:48] he has with Amy Ryan in that movie.

[01:07:50] That sort of marriage story

[01:07:51] really is subpar in comparison to this one.

[01:07:54] So I love Bridge of Spies.

[01:07:56] I love it to pieces.

[01:07:57] But that is definitely an element

[01:07:58] that falls short in comparison to this one.

[01:08:01] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:08:02] And speaking of falling short,

[01:08:04] I guess I'll chuck my two cents in.

[01:08:07] I have a bit of an issue

[01:08:08] with how Pankowski is handled in this film.

[01:08:13] I feel like, I mean,

[01:08:14] not a lot is known about what happened to him at the end.

[01:08:16] There's a lot of different takes on it.

[01:08:18] Some say he was just murdered.

[01:08:20] Some say he was used to something else

[01:08:23] and put back out to pass.

[01:08:24] So he just spent the rest of the time in a gulag.

[01:08:27] There's lots of different interpretations

[01:08:28] of what happened to the chap.

[01:08:30] But once it all goes down and they're captured,

[01:08:34] the POV really is just Benedict Cumberbatch at that point.

[01:08:37] And the story seems to sort of want

[01:08:39] to not talk about Pankowski much anymore

[01:08:42] apart from his reappearance in the prison.

[01:08:44] But that for me is almost more

[01:08:46] of an interesting part of the story

[01:08:47] because much as Benedict Cumberbatch

[01:08:51] is a fish out of water,

[01:08:53] he has had none of this training to do anything,

[01:08:56] to sort of survive this environment.

[01:08:59] We're talking about a man, Pankowski,

[01:09:01] who has abandoned his entire country,

[01:09:03] sold his country out

[01:09:05] and will face a very bleak ending.

[01:09:09] And he knows that.

[01:09:10] It's Mark Rylance getting into the car

[01:09:12] at the end of Bridge of Spies.

[01:09:14] He knows he's going off to a very sorry end.

[01:09:17] But we don't get to see it

[01:09:19] or experience it with the character

[01:09:20] when we spent 45 minutes building up

[01:09:23] the story about him and his family,

[01:09:25] about what they were all going through.

[01:09:27] You never really get a proper resolution on that.

[01:09:31] And obviously you get the small payoff

[01:09:33] where he finds out that his actions

[01:09:34] have stopped the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[01:09:36] So I could hear you biting back at me

[01:09:37] saying there is that little olive branch there.

[01:09:40] But I don't think you get a character,

[01:09:42] an actor with a sort of pedigree

[01:09:43] of Mirab Ninitsi and I hope

[01:09:46] I got that right that time.

[01:09:48] And then don't use him in the torture scenes.

[01:09:51] I feel like you could have had them both.

[01:09:53] Like I could see a shot in my head

[01:09:54] of both of them back to back

[01:09:56] on the walls of the prison cells going crazy

[01:09:59] and having the same reactions

[01:10:00] to it or something like that.

[01:10:01] I could just see those sort of things in my head

[01:10:03] and I feel like there's a bit

[01:10:04] of a missed opportunity there

[01:10:06] that I would have liked to have seen more of.

[01:10:08] I wonder if they wanted to have an element

[01:10:10] of mystery as to what was going on with Pankowski,

[01:10:13] that they want the audience to be wondering

[01:10:15] like what's going on with him?

[01:10:17] Is he going to give up information

[01:10:19] that could get Benedict Cumberbatch's character

[01:10:21] of Greville in trouble?

[01:10:23] So I think that might be part of the reason,

[01:10:25] just dramatically to keep it a mystery.

[01:10:26] But like I also kind of wonder

[01:10:29] if they underestimated how much the audience

[01:10:32] would care about the Pankowski character

[01:10:36] and actually become emotionally connected to him.

[01:10:39] Because you have a movie star

[01:10:42] in Benedict Cumberbatch

[01:10:44] and I wonder if they were thinking

[01:10:45] the audience cares about him.

[01:10:47] That's who they really genuinely care about.

[01:10:50] But I almost wonder if they didn't realize

[01:10:52] that they really had a secret weapon

[01:10:54] in the actor playing Pankowski where-

[01:10:57] Nice, well done.

[01:10:59] Thank you, thank you.

[01:10:59] Very smooth I know.

[01:11:01] Is he Prince, the actor formerly known as Pankowski?

[01:11:04] That's right.

[01:11:06] From now on, yes.

[01:11:07] I just wonder if they were like

[01:11:08] we want a good actor for this role

[01:11:10] because it's an important role obviously.

[01:11:13] But they didn't realize

[01:11:14] that he would be something of a powerhouse

[01:11:16] in this movie opposite Benedict Cumberbatch

[01:11:18] and people would actually genuinely,

[01:11:20] emotionally want to follow him.

[01:11:22] I mean, listen, I think the film resolves perfectly

[01:11:25] and I think it's a fine ending.

[01:11:27] If we're talking about nitpicks,

[01:11:29] that's something that popped to my mind

[01:11:30] that would have liked to have seen a bit more

[01:11:32] especially because what is known to him

[01:11:34] isn't a straight story that we can tell.

[01:11:37] It is almost a bit ambiguous.

[01:11:40] Actually gives them a bit of creative license

[01:11:41] to come up with their own ending for the character

[01:11:43] and you could have seen that through to the end

[01:11:45] but we just sort of left it to,

[01:11:47] it's a mystery, I guess that's interesting.

[01:11:49] But if you're telling a story

[01:11:51] as sort of a docudrama style

[01:11:54] that this is going for in a way,

[01:11:55] maybe you could have seen what happened to him.

[01:11:57] I don't know.

[01:11:58] Yeah.

[01:11:59] I mean, there were various stories

[01:12:00] as to what happened to Pentecost in real life.

[01:12:05] It's believed that he was shot in 1963

[01:12:07] but there were stories about the KGB

[01:12:09] pushing him alive into a furnace

[01:12:12] in front of a gathering of high ranking Soviet officers.

[01:12:17] Oh boy.

[01:12:18] Which, yeah, that would have been a scene.

[01:12:23] That's a very dark ending to the film for sure.

[01:12:26] Yeah.

[01:12:27] Yeah.

[01:12:28] But I mean, if you read Wynne's book

[01:12:30] because he wrote a biography,

[01:12:32] he plays fast and loose with the truth.

[01:12:35] I mean, you can tell he was a salesman.

[01:12:40] There's a lot of porkies in there

[01:12:44] but yeah, I think, yeah, it's a shame that they don't,

[01:12:51] you don't hear more about Pankowski towards the end.

[01:12:56] He just sort of disappears out of the narrative, doesn't he?

[01:13:00] Yeah.

[01:13:01] And Ian, as a former salesman myself,

[01:13:04] I'm offended by what you just said

[01:13:07] and I completely understand it.

[01:13:10] I wonder too if like Pankowski comes to a very grim end

[01:13:14] the movie has a bit of like a hopeful ending.

[01:13:17] You're definitely given the impression

[01:13:19] that Greville is gonna be haunted by this experience

[01:13:21] but it has the kind of hopeful reuniting with the family.

[01:13:24] Things seems to be going okay for them

[01:13:27] although in real life that wasn't really the case

[01:13:29] but it wants to end on kind of an upbeat note of hope.

[01:13:32] Which is the same as Bridge of Spies.

[01:13:34] You see Mark Rilats get pulled into the car,

[01:13:36] you don't know what that happens with him,

[01:13:37] you get an idea of what that means but you don't see it

[01:13:40] and then Tom Hanks goes home and hugs his wife.

[01:13:43] Yes, but they have in that movie text at the end

[01:13:47] saying what happened to them.

[01:13:48] Sure.

[01:13:49] And I wonder if in this movie it's like

[01:13:51] you have the Pankowski ending and then suddenly like

[01:13:54] a card comes up saying like horrible things

[01:13:57] that they did to him.

[01:13:58] The audience, any kind of moment of hope

[01:14:01] they had at the end of that movie is instantly erased

[01:14:03] and it's a total downer.

[01:14:05] So I can understand why they're kind of dancing around it.

[01:14:08] Yeah, maybe it's just a personal taste thing.

[01:14:10] I'd be keen to know what you all think.

[01:14:12] Let us know what ending you would have preferred

[01:14:13] or would you like more Pankowski.

[01:14:15] Cam, a dislike from you?

[01:14:17] Yeah, I'm just gonna have kind of a nitpick one I suppose

[01:14:19] or I don't even know if it's a nitpick

[01:14:20] but just something I think we've been comparing it

[01:14:23] with Bridge of Spies in certain cases.

[01:14:26] I think this movie doesn't do quite as strong a job

[01:14:29] as Bridge of Spies.

[01:14:31] It's kind of capturing the atmosphere of paranoia

[01:14:33] around the Cold War and the nuclear threat.

[01:14:36] You have a moment where people are hearing,

[01:14:38] I think it's like a radio broadcast about like

[01:14:40] you know, the duck and cover kind of stuff.

[01:14:42] But I didn't feel kind of like the intensity

[01:14:45] of the fear of what was going to happen

[01:14:48] and obviously you have them talking about

[01:14:50] the Cuban Missile Crisis

[01:14:51] but I feel like Bridge of Spies did a better job

[01:14:53] at conveying how people actually felt about it at home

[01:14:56] whereas you don't have a lot of scene

[01:14:57] say of Jesse Buckley acknowledging these things.

[01:15:00] No, I would agree with that actually.

[01:15:01] That is another thing I had noted down in my dislikes

[01:15:04] and I made a note of a great line

[01:15:06] and I can't remember whose speech it was

[01:15:08] but it was one of the people on television

[01:15:10] about how we're living under a nuclear sword of Damocles

[01:15:13] which I just thought was a fantastic bit

[01:15:15] of speech writing there.

[01:15:19] They use like clips of television

[01:15:21] and people watching televisions to give you an idea

[01:15:23] of what's happening in the background

[01:15:24] but you never really feel like

[01:15:26] the Cuban Missile Crisis is actually any actual threat.

[01:15:29] You just, if you know about the Cuban Missile Crisis

[01:15:31] you know what sort of threat that was

[01:15:33] but otherwise if you're showing this to,

[01:15:36] we spoke about how this film doesn't really appeal

[01:15:38] to Gen Zs and Gen Alphas out there

[01:15:41] but they may not know what the Cuban Missile Crisis is or was

[01:15:45] so giving you a little bit an idea

[01:15:47] of what the stakes actually were might have been useful.

[01:15:50] I don't know.

[01:15:50] Yeah, I mean Scott there's a lot of TikToks

[01:15:53] about the history of the Cuban Missile Crisis

[01:15:55] so clearly you are not hip with the Gen Zs.

[01:15:58] The fact that you said hip with the Gen Zs says it all.

[01:16:02] But I think as far as if you're actually going

[01:16:04] by the timelines, the arrest of Penkovsky

[01:16:08] is before the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[01:16:14] And so prior to then there was quite a warming

[01:16:20] in the relationship between the West and Khrushchev.

[01:16:25] You know, they were trying to,

[01:16:29] well Kennedy had been trying to build a decent relationship

[01:16:34] there with them and at one point he actually asked

[01:16:37] Khrushchev if they wanted to participate

[01:16:39] in a joint moon mission rather than the U.S. finance it solely.

[01:16:44] So there was a warming of relations

[01:16:46] but obviously then when with the discovery

[01:16:48] of the missiles on Cuba then there was an immense cooling down

[01:16:54] of relations there.

[01:16:56] So yeah, I think Bridgespies overdoes it

[01:17:02] I think with the nuclear stuff

[01:17:03] because you've got the girl watching

[01:17:05] the atom bomb going off and crying.

[01:17:12] I think it's overdone but maybe that's just me being British.

[01:17:17] Yeah, it is all personal taste.

[01:17:20] And as Cam said these are all little nitpicks

[01:17:21] about a film we all seem to have very much enjoyed.

[01:17:23] So let's get to sort of final notes before we get to the knock list.

[01:17:27] Guests are always first.

[01:17:28] Is there really notes you've got down Ian

[01:17:30] that you haven't mentioned already you'd like to bring up?

[01:17:32] Not really.

[01:17:33] I think I've covered everything

[01:17:36] and I've harped on too much about details,

[01:17:39] about timelines and...

[01:17:41] No, no, no, that is why you're here.

[01:17:44] You are master of all things Cold War.

[01:17:47] That's why you're here.

[01:17:48] I've got a couple.

[01:17:49] Cam, what about you?

[01:17:51] Um, I only had a couple things.

[01:17:54] Um, I'll mention first of all

[01:17:56] we have the introduction of Greville where he's playing golf

[01:18:00] and I was thinking about how many spy movies have we seen golf in?

[01:18:03] Goldfinger is the obvious

[01:18:04] but I feel like there was another one.

[01:18:06] I would imagine there's quite a few actually

[01:18:08] if you actually look into them but...

[01:18:11] I think there might have been a Matt Helm or something where we saw golf.

[01:18:14] There's definitely one out there, Cam

[01:18:15] but I can't think of it off the top of my head

[01:18:17] but it's interesting that you mentioned golf

[01:18:20] because I had a golf-related note.

[01:18:23] Oh, okay.

[01:18:24] Yeah. So there's a couple of James Bond nods in this film

[01:18:29] and I'll let you all find them yourselves

[01:18:31] but here's one.

[01:18:33] At the beginning of the film you're introduced

[01:18:34] to Benedict Cumberbatch playing golf.

[01:18:36] Now did you recognize where he was playing golf?

[01:18:40] No, was it the course from Goldfinger?

[01:18:43] It was. Stoke Park.

[01:18:44] It was the golf...

[01:18:45] The Goldfinger, the Golffinger, the Goldfinger course.

[01:18:48] They even make a point of showing he's using a Dunlop 3.

[01:18:53] Oh, wow! Crazy.

[01:18:55] And if you remember, Goldfinger uses a Slazinger 7.

[01:18:59] That's right, yeah.

[01:19:02] Golf trivia.

[01:19:03] Who'd have thought you'd get it here, folks?

[01:19:05] I had a couple more.

[01:19:08] If you tune into the film, the 1 hour and 41 minute mark

[01:19:12] you'll see a glimpse of Cam and I recording the podcast right now.

[01:19:16] What?

[01:19:17] I'll leave that there.

[01:19:19] You can go look it up at the film and if you find it

[01:19:22] send us a screenshot and you'll know what I mean.

[01:19:24] Okay, that's just a little bonus gift journey for you all to take.

[01:19:29] And my final note is I want to give kudos

[01:19:34] to the casting director for the film, Nina Gold

[01:19:38] for managing to find the child actor with the weirdest looking head

[01:19:44] to match Benedict Cumberbatch's weird looking head.

[01:19:48] It's eerie.

[01:19:49] I actually had that in my notes to mention as well.

[01:19:51] I was staring at that kid the whole time going like

[01:19:54] they found Benedict Cumberbatch's secret love child or something.

[01:19:59] I mean, that is the front page of The Sun tomorrow.

[01:20:03] Now thanks to you Cam, Benedict Cumberbatch's secret love child

[01:20:06] found in a 2021 film played by Kea Heels.

[01:20:10] I'll give the chap a name and mention whilst we're here.

[01:20:13] Not exactly kept in the shadows if he's being presented in a film

[01:20:15] as Benedict Cumberbatch's son.

[01:20:17] No, a weird way of getting that story out there, isn't it?

[01:20:21] It really is.

[01:20:22] I just had two other notes.

[01:20:25] Number one, when we are in Russia with Pankovsky

[01:20:29] there's an elevator there that looks very dangerous to get off of.

[01:20:32] It never stops moving and you have to basically like

[01:20:35] just get on and off while it's in motion

[01:20:37] and it reminded me of the crazy elevators from Funeral in Berlin.

[01:20:42] Yeah, they like some crazy lifts in Europe I suppose.

[01:20:46] Not in the UK but...

[01:20:48] There is one in the UK.

[01:20:49] There's one at Sheffield University.

[01:20:52] Is there?

[01:20:53] It's called a Paternoster lift.

[01:20:55] I think those things.

[01:20:57] It's at Sheffield.

[01:20:58] I'm going to have to get up there.

[01:20:59] Yeah, there's one there.

[01:21:03] I mean, sorry Cam, I just want to mention

[01:21:07] there's one thing that you've reminded me

[01:21:09] which was a local connection for me

[01:21:12] because when I lived in London

[01:21:13] I used to live in Crouch End

[01:21:15] and the scene where Wyn is outside the underground station

[01:21:20] I think it's South Kensington

[01:21:22] is actually filmed at Hornsey Town Hall

[01:21:27] that was in Crouch End.

[01:21:28] So, it's made up to look like an underground station.

[01:21:31] So, I was delighted to see there was a local connection

[01:21:34] which would have been a stone's throw

[01:21:36] from where I used to live in London.

[01:21:38] Oh, very nice.

[01:21:39] Well, I mean, I've got a local connection for you

[01:21:41] just to close out my other notes

[01:21:44] which is one of my favorite things to do

[01:21:45] when I watch movies and they show like movie marquees

[01:21:48] or anything like that

[01:21:49] is to note down what is playing

[01:21:51] within the world of the movie.

[01:21:53] So, when we are getting the tour of

[01:21:54] Swing in London of the 1960s

[01:21:58] playing in the theater

[01:21:59] not the movie theater

[01:22:00] but the actual theater is the Sound of Music

[01:22:03] theatrical production

[01:22:04] and when they show a movie display marquee

[01:22:07] it's actually for the Elvis movie

[01:22:09] Girls, Girls, Girls.

[01:22:11] Brilliant.

[01:22:12] And how is that connected to you, Cam?

[01:22:16] I've seen Girls, Girls, Girls.

[01:22:17] It's terrible.

[01:22:18] It's truly terrible.

[01:22:20] Okay.

[01:22:21] Yeah, strange connection

[01:22:23] but I appreciate you paying the attention to it.

[01:22:25] I always enjoy that part.

[01:22:27] Wonderful.

[01:22:28] Well, it's that time again, folks.

[01:22:30] It's time to talk about the Knock List.

[01:22:33] Ian, you're our guest.

[01:22:34] You'll get the first vote

[01:22:35] but for those who are tuning in for the first time

[01:22:37] Cam, tell the folks what the Knock List is.

[01:22:40] Yes, the Knock List is the need to see official classics

[01:22:43] of the Spy Hards podcast

[01:22:44] where every week after we talk about a movie

[01:22:46] we decide whether it belongs in the pantheon

[01:22:48] of all-time great spy movies.

[01:22:51] So, there's a lot of competition in there

[01:22:53] and movies as notable as North by Northwest

[01:22:56] or Goldfinger

[01:22:57] but also some obscurities like Hannah, Five Fingers.

[01:23:01] There's some, you know, kind of

[01:23:02] Spy Hards oddities mixed in the spy and black as well.

[01:23:06] And Bridge of Spies.

[01:23:08] Bridge of, yeah, I should have mentioned that first and foremost.

[01:23:10] Yeah, Bridge of Spies made the Knock List, yeah.

[01:23:12] So, yeah, Ian, so far you're one for one

[01:23:14] in terms of getting a film onto the Knock List

[01:23:16] so I'll go to you for the first vote.

[01:23:19] Is the courier making the list of the best spy movies of all time?

[01:23:23] Can I just ask how many are there on the Knock List at the moment?

[01:23:27] Around about 25.

[01:23:29] That sounds right, yeah.

[01:23:29] Maybe 30.

[01:23:30] Right.

[01:23:31] Okay, so it's quite a select band.

[01:23:34] Quite discerning most of the time.

[01:23:39] A couple questionable judgments but yes.

[01:23:45] I would say yes because I just really enjoyed the film

[01:23:48] and I think it's a really good depiction

[01:23:50] of an important piece of Cold War history.

[01:23:53] So, I would say yes from that point of view

[01:23:59] but I mean, I guess if we've put Bridge of Spies on there

[01:24:04] then I would say it's at least equal to that.

[01:24:10] Okay.

[01:24:10] Okay, all right, that's a yes.

[01:24:13] One yes of three.

[01:24:14] Let's find out what Cam's vote is, Mr. Smith.

[01:24:17] I am in very tricky territory with this one

[01:24:20] because I really enjoy this movie

[01:24:22] but I don't think it ever achieves greatness

[01:24:25] and that's something that I struggle with

[01:24:26] because The Bourne Identity didn't make the list.

[01:24:29] Spy Game didn't make the list.

[01:24:30] There's movies I legitimately would recommend

[01:24:33] to people out there but when I'm making a list of

[01:24:36] what I'm trying to create this ultimate spy movie list

[01:24:41] does the courier belong on there?

[01:24:43] I don't know that it does.

[01:24:45] I think it's a very good entertaining movie

[01:24:48] but I don't know that it quite hits the

[01:24:50] kind of the heights that I hope for

[01:24:52] when I'm looking at a movie for the Knock List.

[01:24:55] So are you on the fence or are you saying no?

[01:24:57] I think I'm going to be a soft no on this one.

[01:25:00] A soft no, I didn't know we had like

[01:25:03] consistency scales on the Knock List

[01:25:05] and so all right, a soft no.

[01:25:08] Well, I like to qualify it because

[01:25:10] when we're talking about Cats and Dogs 3

[01:25:13] a no to that is not the same as a no to the courier.

[01:25:16] And there's been many films over the years

[01:25:18] that have not made the Knock List

[01:25:19] but they've still had recommendations from us

[01:25:21] all the way back to something like The Man from Uncle,

[01:25:24] the Guy Ritchie version of the film.

[01:25:26] We both enjoyed it but it didn't quite live up

[01:25:29] to what it should have been given

[01:25:30] with all the pieces put together

[01:25:32] and I think that highlights what you're saying there Cam

[01:25:39] but now it means the answer falls to me

[01:25:41] which is very rare when it's a three-way podcast.

[01:25:45] We have a yes from Ian, a no, a soft no from Cam.

[01:25:50] What do I think?

[01:25:51] And this is an interesting one because

[01:25:53] I don't ever write down yes or no to the Knock List on my notes.

[01:25:57] I never write down, I just know intrinsically

[01:26:00] what I want to do with it

[01:26:01] and this is the first one in a very long time

[01:26:03] I've written Knock List?

[01:26:07] Wow, well that was part of my strategy

[01:26:09] was to leave you with the deciding vote.

[01:26:11] Thank you, yeah.

[01:26:11] Now everyone's listening to me

[01:26:13] and hoping I'll pick either for them or against them

[01:26:15] if you're a fan or not of this film.

[01:26:17] Ultimately, I disagree on something you said earlier Ian

[01:26:22] that this is equal to or slightly better than Bridge of Spies.

[01:26:25] For me, I'd say Bridge of Spies has this pipped a little bit

[01:26:30] and there are some quite strong similarities

[01:26:33] between these two films.

[01:26:34] They are different in their own way

[01:26:35] but there is a lot of connective tissue there as well.

[01:26:37] You've got sort of the bromance, that sort of stuff,

[01:26:40] fish out of water or all that sort of joined in there too

[01:26:43] but that film has this sort of Spielberg sheen to it

[01:26:46] which I think lifts it up a little bit.

[01:26:49] And there are lots of things I loved about the courier

[01:26:52] and you'll note our dislike section was very short

[01:26:55] and there wasn't a lot of commentary against the film

[01:26:59] and there were small things if there were nitpicks

[01:27:02] but there's something about it for me

[01:27:03] that just isn't ticking.

[01:27:05] There's just something inside of me that's saying

[01:27:07] it shouldn't and so I think I'm actually

[01:27:10] if we're going with Cam's hard or soft method

[01:27:13] I'm also a soft no.

[01:27:18] So that means it's one yes and two soft nos

[01:27:23] which I think still equal a no

[01:27:25] and I'm sorry Ian but by looks of it

[01:27:28] the courier is not making the knock list.

[01:27:31] I think that's fair enough.

[01:27:32] I mean what I'd say about the courier

[01:27:35] is I think it's more textured and nuanced

[01:27:39] than Bridge of Spies.

[01:27:41] As you said, Bridge of Spies has got the Spielberg gloss on it

[01:27:45] but I think there's far more depth to the characters in this

[01:27:52] and I think that's what makes the film

[01:27:59] alongside all the other bits like the cinematography

[01:28:02] and the set design and all of that bit.

[01:28:07] It's your podcast.

[01:28:08] You can overrule me.

[01:28:11] To be fair you've been more successful

[01:28:12] than most of our guests when people come on the show.

[01:28:14] A lot of people have been on here three or four times

[01:28:16] and gotten nos every time

[01:28:17] so you've actually managed to get one on the list.

[01:28:19] It's true.

[01:28:20] That's pretty rare and I will just add in

[01:28:22] I was praising this film when I started talking about it

[01:28:25] at the beginning of the show.

[01:28:27] It's still a recommendation for me to go and check it out.

[01:28:29] If you haven't seen the courier

[01:28:30] and you've made it this far in the episode

[01:28:33] finish listening and then go and stick it on

[01:28:35] because I think you'll have a good time with it.

[01:28:38] I think for me it falls into the category of

[01:28:41] a spy movie fan's spy movie

[01:28:43] but should it be on the list of the best spy movies of all time?

[01:28:46] I don't think so

[01:28:48] but I'd still say if you finished a knock list

[01:28:51] and like hey I'd like a few more

[01:28:53] I would chuck things like this at you

[01:28:55] and like The Man From Uncle.

[01:28:57] And I would say people if you haven't seen it

[01:28:59] check it out and then tell us why we're wrong.

[01:29:02] Yeah let us know.

[01:29:03] We're usually often wrong.

[01:29:05] Most of the time.

[01:29:06] We're used to it now at this point.

[01:29:08] It's been almost four years of talking about spy movies.

[01:29:11] We've taken a few knocks if you'll pardon the pun.

[01:29:15] But there you go.

[01:29:16] One yes, two no's.

[01:29:17] The courier is not making the knock list.

[01:29:19] The dossier on the film is complete and filed as classified

[01:29:23] and all that leaves me to do is say

[01:29:25] Ian thank you ever so much for being on the show.

[01:29:29] It's been a pleasure to have you back on Spy Hards

[01:29:32] and it's been a blast speaking with you.

[01:29:35] Well it's been an absolute pleasure for me.

[01:29:37] Delighted to be back and yeah if you have any other Cold War movies

[01:29:41] that you think you'd like my opinion on then would love to be back.

[01:29:47] I think the next one we have you back on for

[01:29:49] should be a slightly lighter fare.

[01:29:51] Something crazy like just Off The Wall.

[01:29:53] I've got a film in mind actually.

[01:29:57] It's not beloved but it's certainly crazy and off the wall as Cam said

[01:30:02] I won't spoil that now.

[01:30:04] I'll save that for the future but before we let you go

[01:30:07] Ian we spoke about it at the beginning of the show

[01:30:09] but where can people find more about Cold War Conversations?

[01:30:13] ColdWarConversations.com

[01:30:16] We're also on Twitter at Cold War Pod.

[01:30:20] Just search for us on Facebook and we're on Instagram at Cold War Conversations.

[01:30:27] There'll be links in the show notes below to all of those locations

[01:30:31] plus how you'll be able to find it on things like Spotify, Apple Podcasts, places like that.

[01:30:35] But wherever you listen to Spyhards you can also listen to Cold War Conversations.

[01:30:39] Subscribe to both they'll make a nice little accompaniment on your podcast feed.

[01:30:43] And also check the show notes and I'll have a link to the Pankowski episode

[01:30:47] for those who want to follow up on The Courier.

[01:30:49] There you go wonderful.

[01:30:50] Thank you.

[01:30:51] Thank you Ian.

[01:30:55] Well there you go folks that was our chat about 2021's The Courier.

[01:31:00] I want to once again say thank you to our guest Mr Ian Sanders from the Cold War Conversations

[01:31:05] for bringing his Cold War expertise onto the show for the second time.

[01:31:09] It was an absolute blast to have him and if you haven't checked out Cold War Conversations

[01:31:13] do so now with our blessing.

[01:31:16] And if you want to hear more about The Courier don't forget to check out our

[01:31:19] two Spymaster interviews coming out this week.

[01:31:22] Firstly with Mr Tom O'Connor the screenwriter for the film,

[01:31:26] the man who came up with the idea of putting the screenplay together

[01:31:29] and really saw the film through from conception to reception

[01:31:34] which is a thing I like to say sometimes because it rhymes.

[01:31:37] And later this week we are joined by Mr Dominic Cook the director of the film as well.

[01:31:44] So plenty of background knowledge on The Courier

[01:31:47] and a lot of love for spy movies in that episode too.

[01:31:50] So check them both out and let us know what you think of them.

[01:31:53] Drop us a line at spyhardspot at gmail.com with your thoughts.

[01:31:57] But now the time has come the question must go to my favourite Canadian co-host Mr Smith.

[01:32:04] What are we talking about next week?

[01:32:06] Scott we're going back to the gritty 70s

[01:32:09] with the 1973 Burt Langcaster espionage thriller Scorpio.

[01:32:15] That's right Cam if you want some 70s pessimism

[01:32:20] a real downbeat spy flick but an interesting one to talk about.

[01:32:24] Scorpio is your film.

[01:32:25] Your mission folks should you choose to accept it is to join us next week

[01:32:28] as we take a look at Burt Langcaster's Scorpio.

[01:32:33] If you like what you heard on the show please consider supporting us over on our Patreon.

[01:32:38] Patreon.com slash spyhards or click the link in the show notes below.

[01:32:43] Lots of different membership options there and a ton of bonus episodes to gain access to

[01:32:49] including our new show Spyhards OSS on the small screen as we take a look at the

[01:32:56] television antics of some of our favourite spies from James Bond documentaries through to

[01:33:03] recently we had an episode out looking at the John Le Carre BBC adaptation of The Night Manager.

[01:33:09] Want to check out their great discussion on a great show that I recommend people check out

[01:33:14] but go and find that episode now and if you don't already make sure you follow us

[01:33:18] discreetly on social media at spyhards that's S P Y H A R D S on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram

[01:33:26] but until next week folks you'll find Cam and I trying our darndest to stay out of that gulag.