Codependency, Control, and Becoming F%cking Vulnerable with Terri Cole

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[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, hello, all of my beautiful freaking people. Welcome back to another episode of FML Talk.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You know we do not have repeat guests on here all that often unless they are fucking amazing.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And today is one of them. Terry Cole is here. So sit back, grab a pen and paper, and welcome to FML Talk.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God. Wait, how old was the other girl?

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_04]: 19. Can you believe that?

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, this is Gabrielle Stone.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Good book.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He did what?

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_03]: 48 hours?

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_03]: What a dick.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but have you seen all the photos on our Instagram?

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is FML Talk.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no, she didn't.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, you guys. The last time Terry Cole was here, she talked about her book, Boundary Boss,

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_03]: which is like a phenomenon about asserting yourself, setting boundaries,

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and then made me realize that I was a high-functioning codependent.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_03]: This new book, Too Much, A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency,

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: is, I like don't even have the words for it.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_03]: If you resonate with anything in this episode, you just need to buy it immediately and dig in.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_03]: She also, at the end of the episode, is going to give you info on a free quiz that you can go take

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: that kind of gives you some info of what type of high-functioning codependent you might be.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And she uses the term HFC a lot in this episode, and that is obviously standing for

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: high-functioning codependent.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a wild ride, guys.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Get ready to feel called out and triggered with me.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Here we go.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Terry Cole, welcome back to FML Talk.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't say that too often on this show.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You're one of the few lucky ones to do a repeat.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So hello, my love.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: How are you?

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so good, Gav.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so happy to be back.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yay.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I just saw you in LA.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: It was such a wonderful just coming together of women.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like very powerful for me.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for inviting me to that.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But we came together to celebrate the launch of your new book.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And every time I either have an interview with you or a conversation with you, I'm like

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03]: smacked with a bunch of shit that I'm like, oh, maybe I need to dig a little deeper and

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_03]: figure this shit out.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So your new book is called Too Much.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Tell everybody what to expect from it because it's a must read.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Why?

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, my friend.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_04]: It is, you know, the subtitle is A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And so this book, like every book that somebody writes, you teach what you most need to learn.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And so for me, this book came out of me being a therapist for 27 years and having highly capable,

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_04]: mostly women clients who are doing all the things for other people who are just crushing it in life,

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, but they're also, they have a disordered way of relating to other people.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_04]: They're overgiving, overfunctioning, feeling overly responsible for others,

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_04]: low-key trying to control all the things and all the people.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, this also includes having disordered boundaries.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And so the reason that I even came up with the term, right, because there is the term codependency,

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_04]: we all know this from codependent, right?

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Melody Beatty, codependent, no more, you know, being involved.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of it is addiction language and enabling an addict or an alcoholic.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And so what was happening in my therapy practice is that my super capable crushing it clients did not identify.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: What I was witnessing was codependent behavioral patterns, the way that they were acting.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And if I would point it out, they would be like, yeah, no, definitely.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not codependent on anybody, lady.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody's dependent on me.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm making all the dough.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm making all the decisions.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm managing all the people.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So what are you talking about?

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I knew I was like, if they don't see themselves in the problem, how am I ever going to walk them towards their own solution?

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_04]: If they're like, no, it's something else.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, no, it's literally not something else.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: It's codependency.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_04]: So the irony of high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's still codependency.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And so we're still suffering in the same ways.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_04]: So maybe let's just identify what is codependency, shall we?

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, please.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I really do feel like there's a lot of myths out there.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of people are like my clients and feel like I can't be codependent because I'm not involved with an alcoholic or I'm not dependent or I'm not weak.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_04]: There's myths that if you're codependent, you're like sitting at home waiting for your phone to ring.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Hope that your person picks you.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, that's not it at all.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And so the way that I define it is that it's you being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the relationships, the circumstances, the finances of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is the thing that I get pushback.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_04]: People are like, well, of course, I want my people, you know, to be happy and have the things.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, sure, me too.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_04]: But we're not talking about that.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_04]: We're talking about overinvestment where we almost feel responsible for fixing the problems or for making the thing happen for the people in our lives.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, we can't have internal peace until everyone is happy, so to speak.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's exhausting.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Can you give everybody?

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, sorry.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I was just going to say with my clients, when I added the term high functioning to codependency, they were all able to see themselves and say me.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm the problem.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It's me.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Without shame.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_04]: With being like, yeah, I am doing all the things for all the people.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I remember when you came on and we did our first episode, it was like, oh, shit.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I have that.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And my mom has that.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_03]: That is us.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's like if you add in the word, but you're doing it the best in front of something, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I am psychoanalyzing this, but like in the best fucking way, I'm psychoanalyzing better than anybody else can.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Totally.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yes, I completely resonate.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you give some simple examples that a lot of your clients usually resonate with when you're trying to explain like what high functioning codependency looks like?

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a lot of people.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But the other person has freedom to potentially go to the gym or do that, you know, but they know that you're the one.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But you said that your bank account was low.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_04]: This is to an adult child.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_04]: These are actual examples for my practice.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I transferred money just to get you through, just to make sure.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And I had a client who was doing this every month or every other month.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, your child is 40.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: So by you saving them, quote unquote, you're robbing them of their sovereignty.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_04]: You're robbing them of the need to figure out their disordered relationship to their

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_04]: own finances.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And you get to center yourself as the solution to their problem, which we love to do.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_04]: We as HFCs, and listen, I'm in recovery people, but no shade because I am you.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Like if you feel like you're like, I feel this.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_04]: You do.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, we have to look at what are we doing?

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_04]: We are trying to control covertly or overtly the outcomes for other people.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_04]: We can't stop auto advice giving.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Your friend comes to you.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_04]: She's got a situation.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_04]: She made this one event.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_04]: You can't wait to give her like the five point solution of what she should do.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_04]: You've already connected her to the therapist.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_04]: You have a book you've underlined.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_04]: You've already overnighted it to her.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we can't.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: We can't.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_04]: We can't.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Because now let's look at why though.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Not because we're control freaks.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Not because we're jerks.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Because we're lovers, right?

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Because we're highly feeling people.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And because when the people we love are in pain, it can be intolerable for us.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't even let ourselves feel it because we're immediately in fix it mode.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's a lot of let's look at some of the behaviors maybe would be helpful for people to identify themselves in.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is some of the traits are just feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Like in a reactionary way, right?

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I'm not saying you should never give your friend your advice.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_04]: No, it's not that.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_04]: It just shouldn't be the first stop on the bus.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Because really giving unsolicited advice to anyone and everyone.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I was completely non-discerning in whose life I was willing to fix in my estimation.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_04]: My mailman, a stranger on the train.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't care.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And really what we're doing, and I think it's inadvertent for most people, but we're just not having respect for people's sovereignty.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_04]: For their right to succeed or fail.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_04]: To do it amazingly or fail.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_04]: To just be like, well, I don't know what I'm doing.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_04]: We all do that.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is how we figure out our lives.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But for us, it's hard to allow us to let other people do it.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Giving till it hurts.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Going above and beyond.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of times when you're not asked to, always ready to jump into damage control mode.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_04]: If there's a problem.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like the expert fixer.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Being judgmental of other people if they don't take our advice and of the way they're handling things.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Because as you said, we really do have grade A advice.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we are smart.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_04]: We are very astute problem solvers.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're like, there's a way more efficient way to be doing that.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_04]: We get mad when people don't take our advice.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And the real thing that for anybody listening, how can you tell is you just kind of check your resentment, man.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Like how resentful, how exhausted are you from doing the stuff that you're doing?

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And so much of the time, this includes blurred boundaries in our relationships and an imbalance of effort where we may find ourselves doing more in relationships than other people are doing.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Sort of fulfilling other people's needs.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Always being on the radar.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_04]: What needs to happen here for this person to be happy?

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_04]: For my grown child or my little child to be happy, you know?

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, totally.

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[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_03]: A few weeks back on the podcast, I was talking about my inability to let go and release control,

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_03]: but it wasn't in regards to...

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Because all the things you're saying about fixing other people's problems and doing too much for other people,

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_03]: that I resonate with hardcore.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm wondering if you have any advice for letting go of the need to control or the want to control of a thing.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So a career goal or an aspiration that you're working towards.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm. Well, that's good because what I find is that HFCs can prone to workaholism.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Very ambitious.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_04]: But like, just go, go. We're just going to keep going until we hit a wall.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And we will. So we can talk about that later.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_04]: But so how to let go.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Part of it is really this, you know, we have to move into having faith.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And the humbling truth that the universe, a lot of times, has a better plan for you.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Where things can fall into place with ease and grace or float into your lap like a feather.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Or you can start seeing, if you start allowing and getting into your internal, like, meditation practice,

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_04]: be a little bit more self-reflective, you might start noticing these meaningful coincidences,

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_04]: where it's the universe sort of being like, you're on the right path, but keep going.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like the loneliness and the existential crisis that can come from this sense,

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_04]: the hyper-independence that leads us to want to control so much, where, and this may not,

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_04]: you may or may not identify with this, but I see this a lot with HFCs and with myself.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm really happy to help you.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm really not as happy to let you help me.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to ask you to help me.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_04]: It makes me feel weird.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to know you or anyone, anything.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm very comfortable.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Even now, I've been in recovery for years.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And even now, I've worked for years to allow, to receive, to be a gracious receiver instead

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_04]: of a controlling giver.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Because there's nothing wrong with being a giver.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you look at Deepak Chopra, the seven spiritual laws of success, right?

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_04]: One of the laws is the law of giving and receiving.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Right?

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, everything's got to be moving in order for things to work.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_04]: So it requires a change of mind.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you have to think about, what do I think makes success, right?

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's interesting.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't necessarily identify with not wanting to let people help.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It's, which I know this plays into it.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the not trusting that they're going to do it well enough or the right way.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And keep me posted on every step you're taking so I can know that you're actually doing it

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: in a timely way.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_04]: It's so funny.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_04]: That's so common, that exact experience.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And that can be why it's stressful to allow people to help.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Because when we don't trust that they're going to do it right or the way that we want it to

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_04]: be done.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, how much of the time, some of the mantras for HFCs are, it's easier and better

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_04]: to do it myself.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And it has to be me.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_04]: When it comes to other things, like when we're in that savior position or when we're in that

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_04]: hyper-helping mode, there's this over-responsibility.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_04]: We feel about things.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And many of us are the hero children in our family of origin where we were saving.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_04]: So it sort of makes sense that you grow up to feel like you still need to be doing that.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that the hyper, again, the hyper-independence, because here's the thing.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Even if it's hard for you to let people do things because you want to micromanage it and

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_04]: the quality, right?

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_04]: You have your own perfectionist edge that you need it done a certain way.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_04]: It's still not being able to receive.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Because when we are able to receive, we also realize, we give, you know, listen,

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I think quality control is important.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_04]: So I feel you, right?

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_04]: If someone's going to do something for me, you can't do a shitty job.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Because then I won't, I don't want you to do it.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_04]: So I remember saying to my mother years ago, I was living with a boyfriend and I was saying,

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I just can't, I don't get this guy.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't know how to vacuum.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Like how hard is that?

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And doesn't know how to, he always burns the garlic when he's trying to brown it.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, what's the deal?

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_04]: My mother was like, yes, your father never touched a vacuum or a pan.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Just, just so you know.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think your boyfriend's doing pretty good that he even cares to help.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And she said, you know, Tara, learn something from me.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_04]: If you need everything done your way, you will end up like me, doing it all and doing it

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_04]: all alone.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_04]: So let him vacuum.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_04]: A three quarters good job is better than you doing everything.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Let him, if he has to do the garlic again, let him.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_04]: But she made a great point.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_04]: She was like, yeah, you can do that.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And you can, and she also said, I have no doubt that you could beat Vic, my husband,

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_04]: of 27 years, into submission if you wanted to, to do everything your way so you could

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_04]: stay in control.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But I don't think you will like him very much if you do.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, dude.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't you hate it when the moms come in with the solid advice and you're like, fuck off.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, fine.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll do it.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, why did you apply this to your own life?

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, did you want to get this later in life?

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: You're like, yeah, I had to learn the lessons and now I'm passing them on to you.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I so resonate with so much of this.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to talk about what you consider hitting the wall and what that looks like.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I am sure it's actually funny.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I, this one particular career situation that I've been managing and dealing with, I've

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_03]: actually said the expression to my co-producer on it.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I'm just like banging my head against the wall.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So tell us about what hitting the wall could look like.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's shocking even to the HFC.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's shocking even to us when it happens because we are on autopilot for so long doing

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_04]: all the things for all the people.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And I like to describe it, not that I like to, but I can't, I never found a better way

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_04]: of describing it.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Then it's giving too many fucks for way too long and you bash into the wall and then there's

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_04]: not one fuck to be found or almost anything where you're like, I literally don't give a

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_04]: shit.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I cannot.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm on the ground.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm literally.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So I see this in my practice where women are just burnt out.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_04]: They're like, I cannot do another thing for another person or I can't manage this situation

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_04]: with, you know, I had a client who had an adult daughter who was an addict and my client was

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_04]: pouring all this money into trying to help her and therapists and recovery and the things and

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_04]: the, you know, and of course, and truth be told enabling, right.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Where it was like, you know, you don't have to finish that program, but then I'm going to send

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_04]: you to another pro, you know what I mean?

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And then, you know, finally hit a wall where she was like, okay, I'm cutting her off completely.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know what I mean?

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, okay, if we don't overgive for three decades, we don't need to get to the

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_04]: point where we're literally a bloody pulp on the ground.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And some of us do, but what do we do when we hit that wall?

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So autoimmune disorder, TMJ, insomnia, it coincides for many women with perimenopause and menopause

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_04]: because that already makes you not give a fuck.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Like already dealing with all of the hormonal changes that happen in life.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And you might really be suffering with insomnia or hot flashes or weight gain or painful sex

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_04]: or all the things that come along with menopause that I'm so happy now this generation of women,

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_04]: you guys are all talking about it and you're not going to suffer the way women older than

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_04]: me have.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I feel like we are the generation that's changing that, thank God.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But I do see that there's a correlation between the hitting the wall and just saying,

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't do it this way anymore.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Something has to change.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And so the thing that changes is our relational patterns because that's the problem.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It's what we're doing.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_04]: It's the problem.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But a lot of times the pendulum swings all the way over.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_04]: So we're feeling all of the resentment that we've been repressing for all of the people

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_04]: that we've been over-functioning for.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And in our minds, after a while, you feel like people are really unappreciative.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_04]: They are really taking advantage.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_04]: They really are.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_04]: They really are entitled.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And then in therapy, I help women break it down and go, we have to really look at our part

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_04]: in this of who did I train to expect what from me?

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And now it's time to retrain.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a big one.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Who did I train to expect what?

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_03]: From me.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I always say when you're setting a boundary, if you don't reinforce it,

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_03]: it just teaches the person to be allowed to continue doing that.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Correct.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_04]: You're literally, by not reinforcing it, you're literally saying, you know what?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't pay attention to my boundary request.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't matter.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no consequence.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_03]: It's colluding.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So what's the difference, the biggest difference between your first book,

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Boundary Boss and this book too much?

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Boundary Boss is and was for sort of everyone.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, women in particular, but really anyone who felt like, oh, I don't know how to set boundaries

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_04]: or as for myself in life.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Too much is a little different because it's for the woman in particular or the man, because you can

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_04]: definitely be an HFC as a man.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I just write it from what I know myself.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_04]: It's for people who are really exhausted.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_04]: It's for people who are feeling unseen, even though many of the people have big lives.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_04]: These are CEOs, CFOs.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_04]: These are famous actors.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_04]: These are people who are being seen, but they're not really being seen or feeling known or appreciated

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_04]: in their life to the full extent because the compulsion to be in control of everything makes that really hard

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_04]: to be intimate because to be intimate, we have to be vulnerable and we don't really love that

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_04]: because we don't want to impress people.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Like there's, you know, we know what we'll do.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So we're kind of managing in our relationships.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_04]: That's who it's for.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Or it's for the person who their life from the outside, a lot of people are like,

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_04]: oh, Gabrielle, you have it together, girl.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_04]: They really think you have it all.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You've got the partner and you got the kid and you got the buck and you got the group.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And there's so many people in my therapy practice and in my groups and in my mastermind.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And they do.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a lie, right?

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a lie that they have those things, right?

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I live in an HFC and I've been successful for decades, right?

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a lie.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just not that satisfying.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just kind of lonely.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_04]: There's no soft place to land.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_04]: You know who's not checking in on us if we're HFCs?

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Kind of anybody.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Because you know who's always fucking okay?

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_04]: You.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm checking on my friends.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we're checking.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And as you get into recovery, because that's all you can hope for,

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_04]: that's all you can learn to do.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_04]: There's no cure for this.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like any other addiction or compulsive behavior.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_04]: But you can learn something new.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_04]: We are the way we are for real good reasons.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not like there's something wrong with you if you're identifying with this, right?

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_04]: You have a downloaded relational blueprint, an HFC blueprint, where we learned,

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_04]: hey, this is the way to be a good partner.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_04]: This is how you are a good mother.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_04]: This is what it means to be a good woman, so to speak.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_04]: You do these things.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_04]: You are self-sacrificing.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I said this about my last book, and I'll say it about this too, because it's totally true.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_04]: We are raised and praised to be self-abandoning codependents.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_04]: That is society saying the more self-sacrificing you are, brava.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Good for you.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not good for us.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not good for us is the point though.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And you can, I think the misunderstanding too, that I want to just clarify is that when you're

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_04]: an HFC, you feel like you're doing it out of love.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_04]: You feel like you're doing it out of care.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I did at least.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I really was like, I have to do these things.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_04]: This is, you know, this is what it means to be a lover.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_04]: But let's talk about the cost of going through our lives relating with these sort of disordered

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_04]: boundaries, right?

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And this too muchness.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't mean like you're too much.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I just mean, generally speaking, we're doing too much.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_04]: The auto advice giving, right?

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_04]: How is that detrimental to our relationships?

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not trying to know the people we love.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_04]: We're literally centering their problem on our grade A advice.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_04]: They're barely done with the problem.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I was the worst in my 20s.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you barely got done talking.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, I know exactly what you should do.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't even say any more.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't even need any more of your story because now I'm going to take over.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Like why?

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_04]: What can we do instead though?

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_04]: You can ask them when someone comes to you, especially if you, if you're someone who you

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_04]: are, people do come to you because you do have great advice to because you've set

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_04]: yourself up as sort of the Oracle of all things instead of when they come to you saying, I

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_04]: don't know, I'm miserable.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I should get a divorce instead of being like, well, I don't know about that.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Let me remind you of this.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Let me tell you why, or maybe you should.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I never liked your person.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't do any of that.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: You can say, Hey, tell me what your gut instinct is.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Why do you think you should do that?

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_04]: What are you feeling?

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_04]: If they go, I don't know.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to know what you think.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_04]: You can say, I'll get there.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll tell you later what I think, but here's what matters.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_04]: What matters is not what I think.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_04]: The truth is what matters is what you think.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And so we can learn to ask expansive questions and just witness our people in pain.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_04]: We can learn to tolerate that discomfort because what we're doing when we're jumping in

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_04]: is we're soothing our own anxiety about their pain and their situation.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_04]: It really isn't in the highest and best of the other person because the truth is you really

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_04]: don't know what they should do.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I really don't know what they should do.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And giving advice is presumptuous to think we do, you know, even though I thought it

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_04]: for years.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, again, yeah, no judgment.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I have a friend that's been in and out of a toxic relationship and I've started when

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_03]: she calls to say, are you looking for advice?

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Are you looking for like just support and like an ear?

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't immediately jump into that.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, let me fix things.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is beautiful.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_04]: That's beautiful.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_04]: But there can also be a point when someone is in a toxic relationship where you might

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_04]: not feel open to listening to them.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Telling you the same awful behavior that's happening and they're acting like it's the

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_04]: first, they're like, you're not going to believe what he did.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_04]: You're like.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Shocking.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_04]: How about.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Again.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Not at all.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_04]: How about you're the only person who's surprised.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_04]: You've been telling me for years, this guy's a dick.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Why are we still talking about this?

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_04]: But I do think we have a right to draw a boundary there too.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's so painful.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Even if you learn to not give advice and yet like what you're saying, if it's not intolerable

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_04]: to you to say, hey, are we brainstorming or are you just venting?

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that that's a really loving position to take as long as it doesn't totally wreck

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_04]: your system.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You know?

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_03]: 100%.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Terry, you always have such good eye-opening statements and advice.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for coming back on.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you tell people where they, by the time this drops, the book will be available.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So can you tell everyone where they can grab it and where they can find you?

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I sure will.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_04]: HFCbook.com is where you can get the book and all the bonuses.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And we have actually a toolkit there, an HFC toolkit for people just beginning, right?

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I think.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So this is, you're right.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_04]: It's already going to be out.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_04]: The HFC toolkit is going to give you a place to start.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_04]: If you felt identified with all of this, it can feel overwhelming.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, oh my goodness, I need to change everything.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And the truth is you really don't.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_04]: So the HFC toolkit, which is in, that'll be something that I feel like will give you a

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_04]: place to start.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_04]: You can find me on Instagram at Terry Cole.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I also have a pod that you've been on called the Terry Cole show since 2015.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm in all the places as Terry Cole.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And so the HFC, is it like a quiz that they can go on and take that kind of gives you like

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: a rundown?

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_04]: It's in the terrycole.com forward slash HFC.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_04]: You will see archetypes there.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So yes, people will be able to identify because the truth is all HFCs do it in a different

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_04]: way.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Some are more sort of introverted.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Some are more extroverted.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like the hyper helper, the director, like we've got, we've got different archetypes

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_04]: here, you know, where I think people will really learn something.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Awesome.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I love it.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much, Terry.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I love and appreciate you.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And you're just wonderful.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for putting out such good content into the world.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for having me, my friend.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate you.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to thank Terry so much for coming on today.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely adore her.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_03]: All of the content she puts out is so impactful and so needed in this world.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, she's obviously an amazing therapist, but the work that she has done in these books

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_03]: are really something that resonates deeply and has helped so many people.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So I hope they now are available to help you too.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I love you guys.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll see you next week.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Cheers.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_03]: All right, FMLers.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03]: If you don't want to miss an episode, make sure to follow on your favorite podcast app.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're loving the show, drop us a five-star rating and leave a review.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You can keep up with me on Instagram at Gabrielle Stone or the podcast page at FML Talk Podcast.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_03]: For all the merch and books signed personally by me, you can shop the FML line on eatpreyfml.com.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And as always, have a fucking self-love cocktail on me.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Cheers.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_03]: This podcast has been brought to you by Podcast Nation.