Love, Loss, & F%cking Liberation with Amanda Katherine

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[00:00:28] Hello, hello all of my beautiful freaking people.

[00:00:32] Welcome back to another episode of FML Talk.

[00:00:35] We are getting deep today and we have a return guest.

[00:00:39] I'm really excited for this episode.

[00:00:41] So sit back, grab a cocktail and welcome to FML Talk.

[00:00:45] Oh my god.

[00:00:45] Wait, how old was the other girl?

[00:00:47] 19.

[00:00:47] Do you believe that she's...

[00:00:48] Hey, this is Gabrielle Stone.

[00:00:50] Good book.

[00:00:50] I did not introspect that.

[00:00:52] Oh!

[00:00:52] He did what?

[00:00:53] 48 hours?

[00:00:54] What a dick.

[00:00:55] Yeah.

[00:00:55] But have you seen all the photos on our Instagram?

[00:00:58] And this is FML Talk.

[00:01:00] Oh, no she didn't.

[00:01:02] OK, do yourself a favor and if you are a newer FMLer or if you're an OG, one in

[00:01:09] the same because this episode was so fucking long ago, scroll way back to an

[00:01:14] episode called Fuck Polyamory with Amanda Catherine and go listen to that

[00:01:21] episode and then come back and listen to this episode because she's back.

[00:01:28] And the difference in this human is fucking wild.

[00:01:32] She's been through some shit and it's shit that unfortunately a lot of us

[00:01:38] resonate with.

[00:01:40] She has gone through a pretty difficult divorce after a decade long marriage

[00:01:45] and a lot of the revelations and the changes and the lessons she got that

[00:01:50] we are going to talk about on today's episode are very powerful and I think a

[00:01:54] lot of you will resonate with.

[00:01:56] The reason why I want you to go listen to the first episode, apart from it

[00:01:59] being so fun and like we were just like laughing and it's like about wild

[00:02:04] polyamory sex threesome like all the things it sounds like two different

[00:02:09] people in the best way.

[00:02:11] Like she has now really dropped into her body and let go of so much

[00:02:17] trauma and so much bullshit.

[00:02:19] And I am so proud to know her and have her back on as a repeat guest.

[00:02:25] She's so well spoken and I always think that she has such poignant things to say.

[00:02:30] So without further ado, here the fuck we go.

[00:02:37] Amanda, welcome back to FML talk.

[00:02:40] I feel like I'm looking at an entirely different person than I was when

[00:02:44] we did our first episode.

[00:02:46] Definitely a lot of like external life things have changed.

[00:02:50] I feel like I'm more me than ever, which is so funny.

[00:02:54] But I also in the same way I'm like, oh, fuck.

[00:02:57] Yeah. So if people don't know me super well and they look at like what my

[00:03:00] life looked like when I was last on your pod versus now that it be like

[00:03:04] you have gone through a 360 and I'm like, correct.

[00:03:07] Yes.

[00:03:09] A whirlwind.

[00:03:10] Yeah.

[00:03:10] It's, you know, I feel like it's that rite of passage time that we all

[00:03:14] have to go through it like whatever age you're at.

[00:03:18] It's like the big shift that you go through and it's life changing and it

[00:03:23] sucks and it rips your heart open and you're like, this is fucking bullshit.

[00:03:26] Being a human is hard.

[00:03:27] But on the other end of it, you're like, oh, I see why I needed to go

[00:03:30] through all of that and yay for this new version of me that I now get to.

[00:03:34] Yeah.

[00:03:34] I mean, I will say yes.

[00:03:36] And I feel like I had already had like two of those previous to this

[00:03:41] season of my life and I'm just like really ready for like, I mean, I chose this

[00:03:46] change, right?

[00:03:47] I chose the shift.

[00:03:48] So it's like all very much coming from this place of knowing and also it was

[00:03:51] excruciatingly hard.

[00:03:53] And so I'm really ready for the ease to be just this like perpetual thing.

[00:03:58] I have no idea if that will ever come because life is both individually

[00:04:02] and collectively hard and there's just so much stuff, right?

[00:04:05] And I feel everything such a big way.

[00:04:08] So I'm like, I would like it to not be explosively hard.

[00:04:12] And maybe we can like the rest of my 30s would be so delicious if we're

[00:04:16] just like chugging along at like a cozy six instead of like a three.

[00:04:22] You know, I love it.

[00:04:24] I love it.

[00:04:24] Let's get to a cozy six.

[00:04:26] OK, so take me and everybody listening back to kind of just like set

[00:04:30] the stage of the relationship that you were in the last time you were here.

[00:04:35] Obviously we did your episode on like Paulie Emery, which was one of the

[00:04:40] most fascinating episodes.

[00:04:41] Like I remember just my job being on the floor being like what wait, tell me more.

[00:04:45] Yeah, so kind of take me back and like tell everybody like the

[00:04:49] relationship dynamic you were in then before you start kind of guiding

[00:04:53] us through this like world of a shitstorm that has taken place.

[00:04:57] Yeah, for sure.

[00:04:57] So we last chatted.

[00:05:00] I can't remember exactly when in the dynamic things were happening,

[00:05:04] but I was still married at the time and had been in that relationship.

[00:05:11] I mean, at the end of it is like 11 and 12 years.

[00:05:15] So I think at that time it was like nine, maybe eight, nine that we'd

[00:05:18] been together and for probably three of those years, three or four of those

[00:05:23] years when I first when I last chatted with you up our relationship,

[00:05:26] we had been polyamorous and that was very much guided by both

[00:05:33] like the hearts that we had as individual humans and always had sort

[00:05:37] of had these values around what we didn't understand where like was

[00:05:41] like relationship anarchy, which we could absolutely get into more later.

[00:05:43] Because I don't think we talked about that last time on the pod,

[00:05:46] but that was always a part of my value system and a part of his

[00:05:49] value system too that we connected on like the moment we met, but just

[00:05:53] never acted around it when it came to like sexual exclusivity.

[00:05:56] It was always a monogamy in that lens.

[00:05:59] And then yeah, so that's where I was.

[00:06:01] And it came about because I came out as queer and I was like,

[00:06:06] I'm very bi and I love Dick.

[00:06:09] But I also am so attracted to women and like all sorts of people.

[00:06:15] And I just never thought there would be an opportunity to like explore that

[00:06:18] piece because I was happily in a relationship and had been monogamous for so long.

[00:06:23] Right. And so that opened like a lot of dialogue.

[00:06:25] And so when we left this chat, I think we were talking about three

[00:06:28] of them is a lot about like the two triads I had been in,

[00:06:30] which was sort of my first foray into polyamory, which I definitely

[00:06:33] think of that on the podcast.

[00:06:34] Like don't ever start this way or maybe ever do it.

[00:06:36] It's so hard and it's also the most like represented in the media

[00:06:42] through the lens of polyamory and non-monogamy, which I think is

[00:06:45] so fascinating and interesting because it's like this is not how

[00:06:47] most polyamorous people operate, but it's certainly how I got it.

[00:06:53] Which was interesting and unexpected, but it just sort of happened that way.

[00:06:57] And then, yeah, was just like living my clear

[00:07:01] polyamorous life at the time and very, very much married.

[00:07:05] Would you say that you guys were in a healthy relationship?

[00:07:09] Like because the way it was presented on the pod the last time you were on,

[00:07:13] like I was like, oh, they have successfully been able to do this.

[00:07:17] Like everyone's on the same page.

[00:07:18] They have such a healthy open communication, which like I know

[00:07:20] you have to have if you're going to like, you know, no, you have to

[00:07:24] have if you're in a monogamous or not monogamous.

[00:07:26] You have to have great communication skills like that period in any healthy

[00:07:29] dynamic, correct?

[00:07:30] But it is certainly it's trickier.

[00:07:34] Like when you're involved in significant multiple relationships where

[00:07:38] you are choosing to, if it makes sense for your dynamics, like build

[00:07:42] lifetime commitments to, which is really what polyamory is centered around.

[00:07:47] You know, you're dealing with more than just one other person's needs,

[00:07:51] expectations, desires, changing perspectives, changing needs.

[00:07:54] So there is an inherent need for more communication as a result on all friends.

[00:07:59] Right? And yeah, I mean, in so many ways, you know, I said this

[00:08:04] since because News Flash, we are no longer together that relationship.

[00:08:07] But and I went through a very rigorously hard divorce.

[00:08:10] But it was not because of polyamory.

[00:08:12] Polyamory is actually what probably maintained our relationship

[00:08:15] for two years longer than it would have.

[00:08:18] And so, yeah, we had such great communication skills that we were

[00:08:22] building and had built both like before entering polyamory and previously.

[00:08:26] And also, like I knew that I had the capacity and always felt like I had

[00:08:31] the capacity to have lots of relationships.

[00:08:35] And really even when I was sexually monogamous, I still was operating

[00:08:39] very much polyamorously because I had and continue to have these

[00:08:42] incredibly deep platonic loves that very much feel like an operate

[00:08:47] like partnerships, right?

[00:08:48] And so it wasn't really that big of a shift for me personally as an individual.

[00:08:54] I cannot speak for anyone else involved, but yeah, I mean, we were we certainly

[00:08:58] had stuff that was like, you know, when you meet when you're 19 and 22,

[00:09:03] respectfully, like you're going through life and you're learning things

[00:09:07] and you build patterns on a lot of insecurities, right?

[00:09:10] And a lot of individual traumas and stuff.

[00:09:12] So there were certainly stuff in our relationship.

[00:09:15] I mean, there's no such thing as a perfect relationship.

[00:09:17] I think that's complete focus.

[00:09:18] But like we were not realized humans when we first met.

[00:09:22] And so there was a lot of toxic behaviors that existed for sure in our dynamic.

[00:09:26] And then some of those patterns, despite an attempt to rectify,

[00:09:31] like did continue and then some other stuff happened later on, right?

[00:09:34] So but yeah, the last I saw you, like I was very much in a relationship

[00:09:39] that at the time I would have been like this is so healthy, so positive, so great.

[00:09:47] I wish I could say I am a superwoman and on top of all that I do cook every night,

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[00:11:08] Full disclosure, I was first influenced by Ms. Morgan Willette

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[00:12:39] So okay, what was the turning point?

[00:12:47] Like what, I know there's certain things

[00:12:48] that you can and can't say,

[00:12:50] Lili but like what was the turning point that happened?

[00:12:53] Cause I remember from an outside perspective

[00:12:56] following you on social media and stuff

[00:12:58] when that news kind of broke,

[00:13:00] I was like, oh shit.

[00:13:02] And then you sent me a DM

[00:13:04] and then we were chatting.

[00:13:05] So I know that it was almost like a veil

[00:13:07] was lifted off your face,

[00:13:09] but like what in your experience, what happened?

[00:13:12] Yeah.

[00:13:14] I'm like, how do I say this without saying it?

[00:13:18] At the end of the day,

[00:13:19] there were two years in which we were sifting through

[00:13:24] some big shifts in terms of

[00:13:27] how we were relating to one another,

[00:13:29] what that looked like,

[00:13:31] and also significant mental health changes,

[00:13:35] which completely altered the dynamic of our relationship

[00:13:40] in a way that I think we both thought would be short-term,

[00:13:45] but it wasn't.

[00:13:46] It was like, this is what it will be forever

[00:13:49] and can you live with this?

[00:13:51] And ultimately after being in couples counseling

[00:13:56] for a very, very long time,

[00:13:58] there were a couple of incidents

[00:14:00] that I will not talk about the specifics around,

[00:14:01] but there were a couple of very fucked up incidents

[00:14:04] that occurred that just highlighted some repeated patterns

[00:14:08] that I was not wanting to participate in

[00:14:12] that did not feel like the type of relationship

[00:14:15] and the type of dynamics that felt like love to me.

[00:14:20] To many people that might be fine,

[00:14:22] but for me it was not.

[00:14:23] And I was very, very unwell,

[00:14:27] the last three months of our relationship,

[00:14:29] I was in full freeze state

[00:14:31] because I had been living in fight or flight

[00:14:32] for probably two years on and off.

[00:14:34] And because I'm so good at,

[00:14:36] you probably resonate with this,

[00:14:38] I'm such a like, you do the shit, you keep going.

[00:14:42] You just like, and I've learned

[00:14:44] how to support myself somatically

[00:14:47] and through the work that I do.

[00:14:49] And also just by living,

[00:14:52] by just probably having a relationship

[00:14:55] like processing, but also like

[00:14:58] not letting it take over my whole body.

[00:15:00] And so I was, I don't know how I did it,

[00:15:02] but I successfully, but obviously unsuccessfully

[00:15:05] because I dropped really severely

[00:15:07] but lived in fight or flight for two solid years.

[00:15:10] And I eventually ended up in like a deep freeze

[00:15:15] and I was terrified.

[00:15:16] It felt like I thought I was depressed.

[00:15:18] Like I didn't understand what was happening.

[00:15:20] I just knew that I was like,

[00:15:21] comatose laying on my couch,

[00:15:25] like unable to function as a person

[00:15:29] and still trying to run my business,

[00:15:30] still like doing all sorts of things.

[00:15:33] Can you explain for people listening

[00:15:35] like what a deep freeze is?

[00:15:38] Yeah, so somatically,

[00:15:41] there are sort of like when you're in a trauma response,

[00:15:44] it can present four different ways, right?

[00:15:46] So there's fight or flight,

[00:15:47] which I think we're the most aware of, right?

[00:15:49] Which is when you're in hyper arousal

[00:15:52] and you go out of your like tolerance space, right?

[00:15:54] It's called the window of tolerance and somatics.

[00:15:55] And fight or flight is,

[00:15:58] I mean, it's exactly what it sounds like.

[00:16:00] You're either like, you know, fighting for your life

[00:16:01] and you're, it tends to be this very like up feeling.

[00:16:04] People can have like racing heartbeats.

[00:16:06] I mean, just all sorts of things exist in that space.

[00:16:09] And flight is when you're like, fuck no,

[00:16:10] I'm gonna, I gotta go like space, right?

[00:16:12] And it's usually quite viscerally reactive responses

[00:16:15] that are coming from a place of

[00:16:17] I'm triggered, I'm traumatized, right?

[00:16:19] Now the opposite is when you're in hypo arousal,

[00:16:22] which is when your body goes into what often

[00:16:26] will present in people that looks like depression.

[00:16:29] Now some people actually have depression,

[00:16:30] but other people are simply like in freeze or in fawn.

[00:16:33] Fawn is where people, people's pleasers exist a lot,

[00:16:37] which is where I was for almost all of my twenties.

[00:16:40] It's like, this is how I will move through this

[00:16:43] as I will do what you want.

[00:16:44] I will meet your needs.

[00:16:45] I will not even think about myself,

[00:16:48] when there's something trauma related.

[00:16:50] It's like take my needs out of the picture,

[00:16:51] I will just do everything that you need

[00:16:53] and be like your, I will save you.

[00:16:56] Freeze is the other side of that coin.

[00:17:00] And it's really where our bodies just like

[00:17:05] cannot even begin to respond.

[00:17:08] We start to shut down a lot of the time

[00:17:10] we cannot even say like, or if someone is yelling at us

[00:17:13] or someone is saying that they need something,

[00:17:16] like it's almost like your body physically can't even,

[00:17:20] there's nothing to give.

[00:17:21] And so it just shuts and it presents differently

[00:17:25] depending on obviously what your body looks like for me.

[00:17:28] It was like I was still cognitively there,

[00:17:32] but my body, it was like my body

[00:17:34] wasn't connected to my brain is what it felt like.

[00:17:37] And so I was like, I know this is bad,

[00:17:40] but I can't talk about why.

[00:17:42] And I have no ability to say anything to anybody.

[00:17:48] I was just like, I was responding

[00:17:51] and very much just like nods.

[00:17:53] I was often like feeling like I was,

[00:17:54] it felt kind of like I was in an,

[00:17:56] like what I always imagined,

[00:17:57] like if I were to be institutionalized at any point,

[00:17:59] like this is probably where I would be, you know?

[00:18:02] It was terrifying.

[00:18:03] And I was like that for a few months

[00:18:06] and then I went to Costa Rica on a trip

[00:18:09] that was supposed to be a trip

[00:18:11] or the two of us that we had booked as like,

[00:18:14] were always really good on a trip.

[00:18:15] Let's find a way to heal.

[00:18:17] He decided not to come on that trip.

[00:18:20] And I was like, fuck it, I'm going by myself.

[00:18:24] And very last minute, my parents were like,

[00:18:28] something's wrong, you're not talking to us.

[00:18:32] And that's unusual.

[00:18:33] Do you want us to come?

[00:18:35] And I was like, if you want to, fine.

[00:18:37] But like I'm going and they ended up coming

[00:18:40] which was the best thing that could have ever happened to me

[00:18:42] because I hadn't been telling them what was happening.

[00:18:46] And I'm very, very close with my family.

[00:18:48] And I just felt like very stuck, very isolated.

[00:18:51] And yeah, and I told them everything.

[00:18:54] I liked everything.

[00:18:56] And I felt myself come back online.

[00:18:59] Like my mom looked me in the eyes

[00:19:01] probably like two or three days into the trip.

[00:19:02] And she's like, this is the first time

[00:19:03] I've seen life behind your eyes in two years.

[00:19:06] Wow.

[00:19:06] And I was like, yeah.

[00:19:08] And so when you say that you weren't able to talk to anyone

[00:19:13] and you couldn't talk to anyone, was that a choice?

[00:19:16] Was that someone making you feel like you couldn't share

[00:19:19] things that were going on?

[00:19:21] It was a combination of things.

[00:19:23] I definitely operated in a very protective way.

[00:19:28] Two of my friends, my close, close, close people

[00:19:31] had been like on the receiving end

[00:19:32] of the ins and outs of things.

[00:19:34] So they knew to a degree what was happening.

[00:19:36] But I had left many things out because I felt like I needed

[00:19:40] to protect him.

[00:19:43] And I felt like if I told everybody everything

[00:19:46] that all of my friends would be coming and dragging me away

[00:19:49] and being like, never, ever, ever will you be here again?

[00:19:52] And I was not personally ready to face that

[00:19:55] and to say goodbye.

[00:19:57] So I think it was a piece of that.

[00:19:59] I think there were some unintentional ways

[00:20:02] of closing me off to others that was rough and not great as well.

[00:20:10] Yeah, we're going to be dancing around some stuff

[00:20:12] in this episode.

[00:20:13] And I want to fully respect that.

[00:20:18] No, I appreciate it.

[00:20:19] If we ever get to something that you're not comfortable with,

[00:20:21] please be like, Gabrielle, let's make a hard right.

[00:20:24] Oh, you know I will.

[00:20:25] You know I will.

[00:20:26] But I'm curious, what is the intent

[00:20:31] that you have as Amanda of wanting to not speak

[00:20:36] on certain things?

[00:20:36] Is it in protection of him?

[00:20:38] Is there a legal aspect of it?

[00:20:41] Why do you feel like there's stuff you can't say?

[00:20:44] It's protecting myself.

[00:20:45] Yeah.

[00:20:46] Yeah.

[00:20:47] Yeah.

[00:20:49] Yes, it's protecting myself.

[00:20:50] There was a lot of unfortunate.

[00:20:53] The divorce process took two years.

[00:20:54] It should have never done that.

[00:20:55] So that just gives anyone an insight into the hard end

[00:21:00] of the last four years of my life really.

[00:21:02] And so as a result, I have had to, I chose to,

[00:21:08] but also had to make some agreements

[00:21:10] that I think are complete focus.

[00:21:12] But ultimately it's like I need to protect

[00:21:15] my self moving forward.

[00:21:17] And I spend a lot of years not doing that in other ways.

[00:21:20] And I'm never fucking again.

[00:21:21] So this is the most empowering thing I can do.

[00:21:24] And I have actively chosen to do this.

[00:21:26] And also truly, also from like a lens of my court values,

[00:21:30] I do not believe in putting people on blast

[00:21:38] in a way that's going to bring awareness.

[00:21:40] I believe people have the potential to change and heal.

[00:21:44] And I think that cancel culture can be really fucked up

[00:21:49] in many ways and create a very...

[00:21:52] It's like someone who's already in pain and hurting

[00:21:54] and going through so much emotional damage and trauma.

[00:21:57] Like, yes, or if we're talking broadly,

[00:22:01] abusers are gonna be abusers, but not necessarily forever.

[00:22:05] And they have the potential to heal.

[00:22:07] And I really do believe in that.

[00:22:10] I believe in the core of people and the good in people,

[00:22:14] like probably sometimes to my own detriment.

[00:22:16] And also I think it's what makes me me

[00:22:18] and what's what makes me as an artist and a writer

[00:22:20] and all the things like...

[00:22:22] So, yeah.

[00:22:24] So unapologetically real and like myself and bright.

[00:22:26] And I just don't believe in like,

[00:22:30] no matter how someone has harmed me

[00:22:32] or how angry I am about something,

[00:22:34] like I just can't imagine sitting and being like,

[00:22:37] well, let me tell you about all of the...

[00:22:39] For me, it's just not my way and path to healing.

[00:22:42] And so that also was a part of the decision

[00:22:46] making factor on that,

[00:22:48] which I've said to him many, many times.

[00:22:50] I was like, I will never speak about you

[00:22:52] in a way that is detrimental.

[00:22:56] Yeah, detrimental to you.

[00:22:57] And maybe he might perceive something I say as detrimental,

[00:23:02] but I don't think I've ever done that.

[00:23:04] And I've been very, very cognizant to hold,

[00:23:08] like when I'm angry or when I'm sifting through deep stuff,

[00:23:11] like that happens in therapy

[00:23:13] and that happens with my close fucking friends and family.

[00:23:15] It doesn't need to be anywhere else.

[00:23:18] So let's talk about when all of this was, you know, happening

[00:23:30] and you were like, okay, I'm getting a divorce

[00:23:31] from this person that I've been with for quite a long time

[00:23:34] through very formative years.

[00:23:35] What did that initial like realization

[00:23:39] of oh, this is happening?

[00:23:42] Like what were some of the emotions

[00:23:45] that you felt in response to that?

[00:23:47] Entire relief.

[00:23:49] Yeah, I left and I was just like, oh my God, thank you.

[00:23:54] Like, and I mean, I had been rectifying with the decision

[00:23:58] for probably a year and a half.

[00:24:00] Having conversations around it, both in therapy and with him.

[00:24:05] I mean, like there were, yeah,

[00:24:07] it was just like pure physical relief.

[00:24:10] I sobbed in my car part of the never sobbed

[00:24:14] not out of grief, but out of mother fucking relief.

[00:24:18] It was like finally I can come up for air.

[00:24:21] Yeah.

[00:24:22] And I did like I was like, I was breathing again.

[00:24:26] I mean, I wrote so much in the months after I left.

[00:24:31] I watched Twilight and all these like shitty movies

[00:24:34] but you know, just brought me nostalgia.

[00:24:35] I was in places that really lit me up as a human

[00:24:38] and it was just like really trying to be like, okay, yes.

[00:24:41] There's all of these things like structurally

[00:24:43] that you need to figure out.

[00:24:44] You need to like, I had another dog.

[00:24:46] We had to separate the dogs.

[00:24:47] It was like, what is happening now?

[00:24:49] Like how do we separate a life that's been intertwined

[00:24:52] for 10 years and all of these things?

[00:24:55] But I was like fucking, I'm living now.

[00:24:59] Like it was true, like I'm alive.

[00:25:00] And there were certainly and have continued to be

[00:25:02] as I've shared quite honestly on my TikTok

[00:25:07] and on Instagram and my podcast as well.

[00:25:10] Like what those grief waves have looked like

[00:25:13] and some unexpected things that came up, you know

[00:25:16] throughout the time, because it certainly is not,

[00:25:17] I mean, it's not gonna go away.

[00:25:20] I don't think anytime soon

[00:25:21] cause I just live in the grief with the people

[00:25:24] that I've loved and lost.

[00:25:25] They will always like be in my sphere

[00:25:28] and in my body in some way.

[00:25:29] But yeah, it was mostly

[00:25:31] and has continued to be mostly relief.

[00:25:34] Yeah.

[00:25:35] I remember when I drove away from my ex

[00:25:37] has been getting the papers handed to him

[00:25:39] and like having that final conversation.

[00:25:40] I was like, it felt like the weight of the world

[00:25:43] was lifted off with my shoulders.

[00:25:45] And I was like, oh, I just got a second chance

[00:25:47] to like do this and not be stuck in this toxic shit

[00:25:51] for years and years and years.

[00:25:53] And I was so thankful for that

[00:25:55] and I continue to be thankful for that.

[00:25:57] So I really love it with the relief aspect.

[00:26:00] Was he in favor of like, was it mutual?

[00:26:04] The divorce?

[00:26:06] I was the one actively making choices to end it.

[00:26:08] I think if you were to ask him,

[00:26:10] and again, I won't speak entirely for him,

[00:26:12] but if you were to ask him,

[00:26:13] he would say that he did not want it

[00:26:15] and that he continues to this day

[00:26:17] to be confused as to why that's happening,

[00:26:19] which is a wild perspective from my lens.

[00:26:23] But yeah, I mean, his actions spoke that he did

[00:26:28] even though his words said otherwise.

[00:26:29] So.

[00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:31] I have an interesting question.

[00:26:33] So I did a two part episode with a good friend

[00:26:36] of mine named Carly Craig a couple of seasons back

[00:26:38] and she was in a relationship for four and a half years.

[00:26:43] He was a like full blown narcissist,

[00:26:45] like was cheating with multiple different women.

[00:26:48] One was the same woman,

[00:26:50] had gotten her pregnant multiple times.

[00:26:51] Like it was, he had a full ass double life

[00:26:54] and like she had no idea.

[00:26:56] And I remember listening to that one.

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:59] Yep. Yep. Shout out to Carly.

[00:27:00] We love you.

[00:27:01] She's driving now.

[00:27:03] When Tay and I went over to have them tell us the news,

[00:27:08] we were like some of the first people they told

[00:27:09] because we were so close with both of them during the pandemic.

[00:27:12] I remember her opening the door and looking at me

[00:27:14] with like tears in her eyes

[00:27:16] and she said, just please be kind talking about to him.

[00:27:21] And I was like, what the fuck is going on?

[00:27:24] And now looking back at it,

[00:27:25] I'm like, oh, she was at like the,

[00:27:29] I feel like when you're in deep with any type

[00:27:32] of like abusive situation or narcissistic relationship,

[00:27:35] I'm not saying that's what you were experiencing,

[00:27:37] but I feel like when there's any type

[00:27:39] of like deep manipulation and abuse like that,

[00:27:42] you go through stages as you get out.

[00:27:44] And the first stage is like that,

[00:27:48] he's not that bad of a person.

[00:27:49] I can't believe he did this, but please be kind

[00:27:51] and like let's, you know,

[00:27:52] and she was still very much so protecting him.

[00:27:55] And I've witnessed her now go through

[00:27:57] these different stages.

[00:27:59] It's like really like comparable to the stages of grief

[00:28:01] when you like are in denial and like the protection

[00:28:04] and then you're kind of like angry about it.

[00:28:06] And then you're like, oh my God, fuck you.

[00:28:08] Do I guess my question in saying this,

[00:28:10] and this might be like a difficult question,

[00:28:12] but do you feel like you've fully left that stage?

[00:28:18] I don't think I ever will.

[00:28:21] I don't think I ever will with any of the people

[00:28:24] that have hurt me and that have like

[00:28:28] either chosen to close or forced closure in my life.

[00:28:32] When I love someone, it's like a love for life.

[00:28:36] And I will always see like,

[00:28:39] not really an emotional, I will always see the good.

[00:28:42] Like I'll always see the like

[00:28:45] the heart of who they are, you know?

[00:28:47] And like I really believe that that version,

[00:28:51] which is for many people who I no longer have been my life,

[00:28:54] whether it's him or many other people.

[00:28:58] It's like I know who they are

[00:29:00] and I love that version of them.

[00:29:02] I love the core of who they are.

[00:29:04] I do not love their actions.

[00:29:06] I do not love some of their choices, but I love them.

[00:29:10] And for me, it hasn't been so much as like moving away

[00:29:14] from that, but like acknowledging that that love

[00:29:18] and granted like, I think if this were maybe more

[00:29:21] like currently circumstances,

[00:29:23] it would be a different scenario.

[00:29:25] It's not though.

[00:29:26] And so it's a much more complicated like story, right?

[00:29:31] And so for me, and again, this is true of like a lot

[00:29:35] of people who are no longer in my life.

[00:29:37] The love is present and the boundaries are clear, you know?

[00:29:41] And so for me, that's how I can exist

[00:29:45] and continue to move forward and have

[00:29:49] in such bright and meaningful ways

[00:29:51] and have been in partnerships since that have like,

[00:29:56] I mean altered my fucking chemistry, you know?

[00:29:59] And validated so much around like, yeah,

[00:30:02] you've always believed that this was the kind of love

[00:30:04] that could exist.

[00:30:05] This is the kind of love you have fought for

[00:30:07] in your entire life and now you're witnessing it

[00:30:09] like in a reciprocal nature on all these ways, right?

[00:30:13] And it's like, well, fuck, yeah, like this is the magic.

[00:30:16] And it's just like gonna continue to be the magic

[00:30:19] as I continue to be in partnership with new

[00:30:22] or folks that are still in my life, you know?

[00:30:24] And so will that love always be there?

[00:30:27] Yes.

[00:30:27] And are there some seriously strong boundaries

[00:30:31] that exist in many relationships of mine past?

[00:30:33] Absolutely.

[00:30:35] Yeah, I can understand that.

[00:30:36] The quality that you just said when you got emotional

[00:30:38] about seeing people's core and the heart of who they are,

[00:30:42] my mom possesses that, which is a huge compliment

[00:30:47] and in the same time can be such a slippery slope

[00:30:49] because I've seen it happen to people in her life

[00:30:52] that I'm like, I will fucking murder them.

[00:30:55] And she's like, but I know they're all my friends are.

[00:30:58] Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:59] All my friends are like, let me fucking go.

[00:31:02] Like, I will, I am there for you.

[00:31:04] And I'm like, I feel anger,

[00:31:06] but it is like it moves through me really quickly.

[00:31:09] And it does, and I don't know how to like armor in that way.

[00:31:13] And I used to think that was a fault,

[00:31:16] but I actually as hard as it is

[00:31:18] and as much hurt and pain as I exist

[00:31:21] as a result of being this way,

[00:31:22] like there's no other way I can imagine being.

[00:31:25] And it is truly like the last few years,

[00:31:27] it is something I have spent a lot of time sitting with

[00:31:30] and working on being like,

[00:31:31] no way I love this part of myself

[00:31:33] because I could not love the way that I do

[00:31:36] in all of my relationships.

[00:31:38] I could not do the work that I do.

[00:31:40] I mean, I would not be me and I fucking love who I am.

[00:31:44] If this part of me, which is like this,

[00:31:46] it's been this constant through line my whole life.

[00:31:48] If this part of me wasn't there, I wouldn't be me.

[00:31:51] And I think I'm fucking great and really fucking magical

[00:31:54] and that I bring so much good to others' lives

[00:31:59] and to the world.

[00:32:00] And I believe in that whole fucking heartedly.

[00:32:03] And also there are definitely days where I'm like,

[00:32:05] I wish I had some goddamn Gabrielle in me.

[00:32:07] You know what I mean?

[00:32:08] Like that was like, or in my world,

[00:32:11] like Laura or whatever.

[00:32:14] It's like these humans that are like these anchor people

[00:32:17] in my life that would go to fucking war for me.

[00:32:21] Well, for what it's worth,

[00:32:22] I think it is a beautiful quality

[00:32:24] that not many people possess.

[00:32:25] And if you can have strong boundaries in tandem with that,

[00:32:29] then I say fucking ride on.

[00:32:32] Chika, thank you.

[00:32:33] We talk a lot on this show about relationships being

[00:32:37] mirrors and so many people that come together

[00:32:41] like their, it's a purpose,

[00:32:42] like whether the relationship is successful

[00:32:44] or ends in fucking flames.

[00:32:46] It's like, what are the reasons?

[00:32:47] What are the lessons?

[00:32:48] Like what did that person bring up in you to heal?

[00:32:52] What do you, I mean, I'm sure 10 plus years,

[00:32:54] there's so many things.

[00:32:55] So like you had to focus on one

[00:32:58] that was like that's a fucking big one.

[00:33:00] Like what's one of the lessons that you can speak on?

[00:33:03] Oh my gosh.

[00:33:04] I mean, one of the biggest things was like,

[00:33:06] I was a doormat when we first met.

[00:33:09] Like I was confident,

[00:33:11] but it was this like external false sense of confidence,

[00:33:14] right?

[00:33:15] Of like I was so fucking insecure.

[00:33:18] And he saw all of me in like the most profound way.

[00:33:24] And he really encouraged me to be assertive

[00:33:28] and like to own who I was

[00:33:31] and to move through the world with so much like,

[00:33:34] no, like this is who I fucking am

[00:33:35] and I'm not gonna apologize for having big feelings

[00:33:39] or for saying the word,

[00:33:40] but I mean at the time,

[00:33:41] like it was like,

[00:33:42] or apologize for being by and like choosing to be,

[00:33:45] you know, all of these things

[00:33:47] it was just this constant like,

[00:33:49] I'm gonna support you and like hold you through this, right?

[00:33:52] With like a, with an encouragement of like,

[00:33:54] nah, nah, I'm watching you like be more here.

[00:33:58] And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:34:00] And that level of like, emboldeness

[00:34:04] honestly was like a big part of maybe our downfall

[00:34:06] in the end, right?

[00:34:07] Because it was like, I'm not willing to like,

[00:34:10] you know, back down from these things

[00:34:12] that I believe so deeply.

[00:34:15] And also like for me,

[00:34:17] it has been everything to actually be able to

[00:34:19] and I still struggle with it sometimes like,

[00:34:21] even in the last, you know,

[00:34:22] since my last book,

[00:34:23] like owning my identity as a writer has been like,

[00:34:27] and like saying that,

[00:34:28] I don't know if you've struggled with this at all,

[00:34:29] but like I was an actor for so long

[00:34:31] an artist for so long,

[00:34:33] like I can own that that's been my blood

[00:34:35] but like even like, you know,

[00:34:37] a mentor or coach like,

[00:34:38] I've been doing that since 2015

[00:34:39] but like writing,

[00:34:40] I was blogging and then it was like,

[00:34:42] oh, I wrote a book and it was like,

[00:34:44] oh wait, like now I'm writing another one.

[00:34:46] And like, oh, I guess I'm a writer

[00:34:47] and like I've been writing songs that, you know,

[00:34:49] so it's like owning those things like,

[00:34:52] as still like there's this part of me,

[00:34:53] this young part of me that's still like,

[00:34:55] go to just downplay it.

[00:34:56] But then like, I remember and feel his energy

[00:34:59] and his voice that has now become mine

[00:35:01] in so many ways, right?

[00:35:02] And that I will forever.

[00:35:04] I mean, there's so many things

[00:35:05] but that is like a huge, huge piece

[00:35:07] that began really early on in our relationship

[00:35:09] and was there all the way through.

[00:35:10] Yeah, I love that.

[00:35:12] And I mentioned in the intro,

[00:35:14] I hope people go back and listen to the first episode

[00:35:18] that we did.

[00:35:19] And I think it was like back in season one or two

[00:35:21] on polyamory and because I'm sitting on Zoom

[00:35:26] across from you now

[00:35:27] and I mean this in like a high compliment way.

[00:35:30] So I hope it comes out that way.

[00:35:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:33] The first time we did our interview

[00:35:36] and even when I came on your show,

[00:35:38] there was a mask on you

[00:35:41] that was very like cute and bubbly

[00:35:44] and presented in a specific way to the world.

[00:35:47] And it wasn't bad, but now I'm looking at you

[00:35:50] and like you...

[00:35:52] She's so clear baby.

[00:35:54] You physically look different.

[00:35:56] Your energy is different.

[00:35:58] You don't have like your octave of your voice

[00:36:01] is dropped down like you are in your body now.

[00:36:05] Like in a...

[00:36:06] Oh yeah, I am so planted.

[00:36:08] Yeah.

[00:36:09] Very different way.

[00:36:09] Thank you for saying that.

[00:36:10] It's always so cool when people are like,

[00:36:14] I haven't seen in a minute

[00:36:15] and can like witness that in me

[00:36:17] because like I feel it every day

[00:36:19] and I have obviously like people

[00:36:20] of my inner circle who are constantly like,

[00:36:23] you're just such a fucking...

[00:36:25] Yeah, you're so like in your body now

[00:36:27] but it's fascinating to like

[00:36:29] have been here now for two years so consistently

[00:36:32] and like you're right, my voice is lower.

[00:36:34] I look at some back to some of my older podcasts

[00:36:36] and I'm like, who was that bitch?

[00:36:38] Like she was so...

[00:36:40] She was doing what she was doing

[00:36:42] and when she was doing it and like moving through...

[00:36:44] Yeah, we love her so hard too

[00:36:46] but we welcome this version.

[00:36:49] So going on your the healing journey

[00:36:52] that you've been on recently,

[00:36:53] like what was the biggest part of your healing journey?

[00:36:56] Like what do you look back on and be like,

[00:36:58] oh, it was this that was really life-changing

[00:37:01] or oh, it was this that I was needing

[00:37:03] and finally got.

[00:37:04] Totally, totally.

[00:37:06] Yeah, I mean, I think so much of it was like

[00:37:10] already happening in small ways

[00:37:13] but I wasn't able to be realized

[00:37:14] because I was never gonna be able to be realized

[00:37:17] with that relationship.

[00:37:19] And so like my queerness and what it has looked like

[00:37:22] from a liberation standpoint

[00:37:23] in terms of like just existing as a person

[00:37:26] in my sexuality and my gender

[00:37:28] has been so radically different since I left

[00:37:33] and like realized in a way that's just been like fully embodied

[00:37:38] instead of partially embodied in ways that like

[00:37:41] made sense or could exist

[00:37:43] in the context of that relationship.

[00:37:46] So that's been a really huge one.

[00:37:48] I also have been talking a lot about this like publicly

[00:37:52] but, you know, I've been celebrating platonic love

[00:37:56] and specifically platonic partnership

[00:37:59] in a way that I had never utilized the term

[00:38:02] like partner with my platonic people before.

[00:38:05] And in the last two years,

[00:38:08] one newer relationship has come into my life

[00:38:11] where like we are partners in every sense.

[00:38:14] We are just not like having sex.

[00:38:16] Right.

[00:38:17] And another relationship that's been in my life

[00:38:19] for five years that has always felt like partners.

[00:38:21] And frankly, I felt that way in a lot of my relationships.

[00:38:25] I used to always joke with like, you know

[00:38:27] my previous relationship, I would always say to him

[00:38:29] like, you know that like in the hierarchy of life

[00:38:32] like you are below these two.

[00:38:34] Do you know?

[00:38:34] I don't believe in hierarchy generally

[00:38:37] when it comes to relationships.

[00:38:38] That's my relationship anarchist side coming, you know

[00:38:40] to the front, but like, I mean, there have been

[00:38:43] like steadfast people in my life where I've like

[00:38:46] if what made sense for them to use partner

[00:38:49] in our relationship, like if that term had made sense

[00:38:52] at the time like or continue to like

[00:38:55] I would absolutely be like, no, you're a partner of mine

[00:38:57] and like we do life together

[00:38:59] in a way that is not as you would with like a friend,

[00:39:03] you know?

[00:39:04] And so that has been a really interesting and rad for me

[00:39:09] like radical approach to something

[00:39:13] that has always made so much sense to me

[00:39:14] but then having people want to partner with me in that

[00:39:16] and like it's reciprocal in terms of how we show up

[00:39:20] for one another has been fucking magical.

[00:39:24] So that's been a big piece.

[00:39:25] And then also I was in a partnership

[00:39:30] which was with a man, a straight man, which was like

[00:39:34] I never thought I would be in a partnership

[00:39:36] with a straight man again.

[00:39:38] That was incredibly healing for me

[00:39:41] and where a lot of trauma

[00:39:45] that had been stored in my body was like together

[00:39:49] we really healed each other in many of those ways

[00:39:52] and physically and sexually

[00:39:55] and also like in terms of the ease and kindness

[00:39:58] and emotional connection and communication

[00:40:03] and just all of these things that I have

[00:40:05] in previous relationships of many kinds felt like

[00:40:07] I had to fight in order to like have on the table

[00:40:11] and there was no fight.

[00:40:13] It was all just like this makes so much sense

[00:40:15] and existing in that dynamic, even though like

[00:40:19] it has de-escalated and we are now friends

[00:40:21] and like it didn't make sense for like long-term

[00:40:23] for many reasons.

[00:40:25] Having had that container for almost a year

[00:40:29] was though incredibly healing for me.

[00:40:33] And yeah, so like those three things

[00:40:36] have really been the biggest things.

[00:40:39] I'm so happy you say that because I think so often

[00:40:41] people are like you have to heal your shit

[00:40:43] before you can enter into a relationship.

[00:40:46] Yeah, fuck that noise.

[00:40:47] Yeah, I think that's bullshit.

[00:40:48] I think there's something to be said

[00:40:50] like don't like perilously go into a relationship

[00:40:52] when you know you're like all fucked up

[00:40:55] and like needing time for yourself.

[00:40:58] Be fucking transparent about what you're working on

[00:41:00] and let the person consent to being a part of that or not.

[00:41:04] Yeah, let them like consent to the shit show that you are.

[00:41:07] And like we're all shit shows, like let's be honest.

[00:41:10] Yes, yes, but it's so true

[00:41:12] that if like two people can come together

[00:41:15] and help each other on that healing journey

[00:41:19] a lot of really beautiful work can be done.

[00:41:23] So I really love that you brought that up

[00:41:25] and I think it's really important for people to know that.

[00:41:28] What's going on in your life now?

[00:41:30] Like what's coming up?

[00:41:31] What's tell me the work stuff?

[00:41:33] Like what's going on?

[00:41:36] Yeah, great question.

[00:41:37] This is the year that I released my first EP.

[00:41:43] Oh my God.

[00:41:44] Yeah, so my next book has I've been compiling

[00:41:48] for three years and I've also been doing

[00:41:50] so alongside writing songs for the first time.

[00:41:53] Like in 2020 was sort of how that came to be.

[00:41:57] I picked up the guitar and I was like, oh this is,

[00:42:01] I'm in my Joni Mitchell era I guess.

[00:42:03] So this is where we are.

[00:42:05] And it's all sort of, I've been really nervous

[00:42:09] to put it out because it feels like

[00:42:10] the most vulnerable thing.

[00:42:12] Like I've been sharing my life on my podcast

[00:42:15] and in my book I chopped off my tits like on my,

[00:42:17] I've been doing it on Instagram for so long

[00:42:20] and this has been terrifying.

[00:42:22] Like I feel, I went to like a few open mics last year

[00:42:25] to like play songs in person

[00:42:27] just like not to my dog for the first time.

[00:42:30] And I was like, this feels like the most vulnerable thing

[00:42:33] I've ever done and I'm on stage all the time as an actor.

[00:42:35] Like so we're doing it this year.

[00:42:37] I'm putting a fundraiser together that actually I'll be,

[00:42:40] I don't know when this is going out

[00:42:41] but my birthday is February 4th.

[00:42:42] And so I'm like for my birthday I just like anything

[00:42:46] you can contribute to a queer artist.

[00:42:48] I love it.

[00:42:49] Trying to make their dreams come true

[00:42:50] because raising capital for that shit

[00:42:52] is the only way to do it.

[00:42:54] So, so yeah, it's gonna be like a collection of poetry

[00:42:59] and essays which is essentially already compiled.

[00:43:02] I just need to get a designer and an illustrator

[00:43:06] for the book.

[00:43:07] Cause it's gonna be just like this beautiful thing

[00:43:08] to hold all centering, you know, queer liberation,

[00:43:11] non monogamy, divorce, grief, love

[00:43:13] and all of the things that can look like.

[00:43:15] And then in tandem have that linked to this album

[00:43:20] because they go so hand in hand.

[00:43:22] So it's like there will be a time's run

[00:43:24] of like okay and now if you want to go listen

[00:43:26] to the song like this is where, you know?

[00:43:28] And so. Love it.

[00:43:29] Awesome. Yeah.

[00:43:30] So that's like my big creative project.

[00:43:33] I have a couple of shows.

[00:43:34] I start rehearsals for my next show

[00:43:36] in a few weeks that I'm really excited about.

[00:43:38] So like we're really trucking the air

[00:43:40] and then otherwise just, you know

[00:43:41] rocking with my one-on-one clients

[00:43:43] and my support groups and just, you know

[00:43:45] doing the things that light me up

[00:43:48] and support the collective too in that way.

[00:43:50] So yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:51] I love that.

[00:43:52] Can you tell people where they can come find you

[00:43:54] if they want to deep dive into all of your stuff?

[00:43:57] And I just think you're such like a wonderful light

[00:44:02] in this world and you're so authentic

[00:44:04] and you have this like beautiful vulnerability about you.

[00:44:07] And I know in your coachings

[00:44:08] and like all the work that you do

[00:44:10] like people really get a lot out of it.

[00:44:13] So if people are wanting to. Thank you.

[00:44:15] Come get some of that stuff.

[00:44:16] Where can they come find you?

[00:44:19] That means so much to me.

[00:44:20] Yeah. I, so the best place is like

[00:44:23] it's live your fuck yes life pretty much everywhere.

[00:44:25] It's now liveyourfuckyeslife.com is like all the goods.

[00:44:29] My podcast, if you want to listen to the old stuff

[00:44:31] is there.

[00:44:32] I haven't been making new episodes for probably six months.

[00:44:35] I'm like, I don't know.

[00:44:36] Will we come back?

[00:44:37] Will we not?

[00:44:38] I'm not sure.

[00:44:39] But right now it's on hiatus.

[00:44:40] And then my old Instagram since last time

[00:44:42] I was here was deactivated wrongfully by Instagram

[00:44:47] because they claimed that I did some things

[00:44:49] against community guidelines, which were absolutely incorrect

[00:44:51] but my account was forever gone.

[00:44:53] So I've been rebuilding since July, which is we love that.

[00:44:57] But yeah. So if you want to come over there

[00:44:59] it's liveyourfuckyeslife.

[00:45:01] And then if you're on the TikToks

[00:45:02] it's just at my fuck yes life on there.

[00:45:05] I think that's everything.

[00:45:06] We love the fucks.

[00:45:07] We love the fucks.

[00:45:08] We do.

[00:45:09] It's always about the fucks

[00:45:11] on all fronts.

[00:45:13] Oh, I am sending you so much love dude.

[00:45:17] I'm so appreciative for you coming on and sharing.

[00:45:21] There was a lot of goodness in this episode

[00:45:23] that I think people will really resonate with

[00:45:26] and important topic even though we

[00:45:28] danced around a few of them.

[00:45:30] I so appreciate it.

[00:45:30] I know. I know. I was like,

[00:45:32] I know that you always do like the like Nick grit

[00:45:34] like give me the T episodes.

[00:45:36] And I'm like, we're not gonna be able to do this.

[00:45:39] No, but you know what?

[00:45:40] Like it's not even on those episodes.

[00:45:43] It's never about the T.

[00:45:43] It's about the lessons and we got a lot of the lessons

[00:45:48] from this story.

[00:45:48] So I appreciate you and I thank you

[00:45:51] and you are welcome back anytime.

[00:45:54] I adore you so much.

[00:45:59] I want to thank Amanda so much for coming on

[00:46:01] and as always being so vulnerable and insightful.

[00:46:04] I love having her as a guest

[00:46:06] because I feel like she really thoughtfully

[00:46:10] listens to these questions that I have

[00:46:12] and gives answers from her heart.

[00:46:15] And I'm just very appreciative of the person

[00:46:18] and the artist that she is.

[00:46:20] So please go check her out on her Instagram handles

[00:46:24] or on liveyourfuckyeslife.com.

[00:46:27] I love you guys so much.

[00:46:29] I will see you all next week.

[00:46:30] Cheers.

[00:46:36] All right, FMLers.

[00:46:38] If you don't want to miss an episode,

[00:46:40] make sure to follow on your favorite podcast app.

[00:46:43] And if you're loving the show,

[00:46:44] drop us a five star rating and leave a review.

[00:46:47] You can keep up with me on Instagram at Gabrielle Stone

[00:46:50] or the podcast page at FML Talk Podcast.

[00:46:54] For all the merch and books signed personally by me,

[00:46:56] you can shop the FML line on eatprayfml.com.

[00:47:01] And as always, have a fucking self-love cocktail on me.

[00:47:05] Cheers.

[00:47:11] Hey, I'm Charlene Joint.

[00:47:12] And you may remember me from season 18 of The Bachelor.

[00:47:15] And this is my husband, Andy.

[00:47:17] Hello.

[00:47:17] Together we host Dear Shandy, a relationship podcast

[00:47:20] where we answer all your burning relationship questions

[00:47:22] and satisfy your guilty pleasure, AKA Bachelor Needs.

[00:47:26] Not only do we provide the best Bats the Recaps

[00:47:29] in all the land.

[00:47:29] So we're told.

[00:47:30] But we even bring on your favorite couples

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[00:47:34] Subscribe to Dear Shandy.

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