X-Files Writers Tribute

[00:00:00] This podcast is a production of Unfiltered Studios. If you would like to know more about joining Unfiltered Studios, please visit our website at unfpod.com for more information. This week on On Story, we'll hear from television writer and producer Howard Gordon on his process of creating a hit TV series. Howard Gordon is a television writer and producer best known for his work on the Fox Action Series 24 and the award-winning Showtime thriller Homeland, which he co-developed with Alex Ganza.

[00:00:29] Gordon first gained national attention for his award-winning work on Fox's groundbreaking series, The X-Files, for which he won multiple Golden Globes. His other credits include Angel, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Sisters, and Spencer for Hire. Chris Carter somehow found you, and that room was incredible. Now, I don't know whether it was a room or people were outside. I don't know that much about the history, but you have Vince Gilligan and James Wong and Glenn Morgan.

[00:00:54] And what was it like, you know, writing on that show? It's such a groundbreaking, incredible show. It's interesting from a professional level and a creative level. Remember, the Fox Network at that point was the fourth network. And there was a pretty significant question as to whether it would even exist at that point. It was a Friday night show, and our agent tried to encourage us not to do this show, but we thought it was an amazing pilot.

[00:01:20] And it was a nine o'clock Friday night show, so he referred to it as a hat-sized show. I didn't know what that meant, but I guess hat sizes are single digits, so it was like there were no expectations and that the show would ever do anything. It was like the little engine that could. It really became this unexpected hit, and it kind of became a global hit. Within a year, it wasn't all at once, but kind of in pretty short order, it was like being in a garage band, and suddenly you're part of something that, you know, it's everywhere. I mean, you just, I can't understate the high that that felt.

[00:01:50] I mean, I got a taste of it on Beauty and the Beast. We got some attention, but this really was a big hit, a defining show, and a profitable one for many, many years for Fox. And we were just a bunch of guys who expected nothing of this Friday night hat-sized show. And so we didn't know what, we kind of sensed it was good. And Alex and I, part of the reason we split up on the show was that Jim and Glenn, Morgan and Wong, were so good. They just got the show in their bones. For us, we felt we had to work kind of twice as hard for half as much.

[00:02:18] And if this were, you know, to beat a baseball metaphor to death, these guys were hitting triples and home runs seemingly effortlessly. And Alex and I, if we were lucky, hit a double. Was it a sci-fi intellect? Was it a... It was a filmography. Their ability to sort of, their filmography and their grasp of like B movies, and their ability to sort of take it and sort of put it through the prism of the show. And you can see the influences on a lot of their shows.

[00:02:46] If you're a film buff, you really can see how steep they were in that genre. Alex and I always were much more character-based, and so we always found a character who interested us and built from there. But they were great storytellers. It just turned out to be a great thing for them. And look, it was challenging and competitive and exhilarating and complicated. But, you know, Vince Gilligan, I do remember having read Vince Gilligan's scripts when he was just out of NYU. And now he'd been already successful in so far as selling a couple of scripts that hadn't been produced yet.

[00:03:14] He came and joined the show later in the year. Darren Morgan, who was Glenn's brother, won an Emmy. Again, I would tell anyone who's a student of television to check out his episode in season four called Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose with Peter Boyle. It's one of the greatest episodes of television I've ever seen. Could you tell me an episode of X-Files that you wrote that you guys just loved and thought the execution was as good as what was on the page? Well, there are two episodes that come to mind.

[00:03:43] And again, this is with all the humility of never feeling like I wrote one of the classic episodes. I don't know that any of mine are in the top ten. But there was one called Kaddish, which is actually about the golem myth. I did it in season four that I was very proud of. There was low-hanging fruit on a show like X-Files. You have only so many vampires and zombies and aliens and resurrections. And this was sort of an iteration of the Frankenstein myth.

[00:04:07] So this monster was created as a defender of the persecuted Jews in what was then, you know, what is now Czechoslovakia. But he's a monster and gets away. And I found a way to make it a love story. So it was just finding the right aperture or the right foothold into the story. And it was fun. And it's had some longevity. People have continued to reach out and get to see it. And I really like that. Tell me about how you wind up on Angel and Buffy and working with Joss.

[00:04:35] There's this show that nobody thinks much of by this really talent, you know, this everyone, this kind of wonderkind Joss Whedon, who had written the movie that didn't do very well called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And David Greenwalt, who had been on the X-Files, was the more mature writer, showrunner, who was paired with Joss at the beginning of that show. And so David, who had been on the X-Files, asked me to join Buffy in the second season.

[00:05:00] You know, Joss, again, had that crazy ability that Morgan and Wong had to quote, you know, he knew what happened in Act 3 of Henry VIII, but also in Issue 3 of Spider-Man Vol. 7. I mean, and he could mash up these tones in a way. He also had a tremendous staff. I can't underestimate the importance always of having, you know, a showrunner really has to sort of be more of the conductor and the band leader.

[00:05:25] Well, we invite Adam from the Virtual Seasons website, where it's more than fan fiction.

[00:06:48] Basically, people estimate what, you know, unfilmed material would have probably been the next season had the show continued on the airwaves. And Adam has contributed once for what he thinks Season 12 of X-Files would have looked like. So welcome to the show. Well, thank you for having me on. And, yeah, that was sort of the idea behind the Virtual Season 12 was to do it in, like, you know, TV, screenplay format, teleplay format, to, you know, something a little bit different than normal fan fiction, which is just, like, prose.

[00:07:17] And then to do, you know, what our best job of what we would think, like, a Season 12 would look like. Yeah. Inevitably, it ends up becoming, hey, you know, if five different fans have talked about this, then it's just got to happen, you know? Right. Yeah, I mean, it all just sort of came together. So shortly after the last real season of the show, just me and some other fans, we found each other. And we're still great friends now.

[00:07:46] So, like, friendships were forged from that experience as well. But we – It wasn't bad. Yeah, we actually – we all visited the X-Files Museum last year that opened up. I don't know if you've seen that. It's in Saratoga Springs, New York. And they actually had – there's a couple of fans that they've been collecting props and stuff from the show for a long time. And they opened up their own public museum. You can go, like, any day of the week, and they had Chris Carter came on the opening. Oh, man.

[00:08:15] So we got to meet him and watch the pilot episode of the show together. I mean, it was definitely a fantastic experience. So they're having another fan event in the summer, I think, June 7th to 8th, I want to say. I may have the dates wrong, but you can look it up. But, yeah, they're going to have another fan event where they're going to have some – they're still announcing guests, but they're going to have some actors from the show. I watched it with my mom when I was, like, eight years old. So you're a fan for almost 30 years now. I hear you.

[00:08:45] So this is – I am game anytime to talk about the X-Files. So thanks again for having me on. Yeah, absolutely. We did one with the fan retrospect duo where they talked about, you know, the best moments. And it was tough to pick a good moment. Oh, yeah. The team is great. Yeah, they have a really great project that they've done. They picked a lot of hysterical moments. I picked the submarine episode. It's a favorite.

[00:09:11] We had some other pals who just remembered just some other creepy moments featuring the great cigarette smoking man. And so it was just fun how – again, you know, if we're going to talk about a movie or show instead of just – you know, not everyone can make every chat. So whatever way I can retcon the chat and it's still kind of a fun highlight. And people are going to tune in because they're like, oh, see, you know, you're talking about just moments. But you're also detailing what kind of moments and everything.

[00:09:38] And, yeah, no, this one is kind of one of those few shows that just about everybody has seen. Even people who were keen on it, you know, have seen it. Right, yeah. A lot of people will be like, oh, yeah, that's the one with the mom under the bed. And, you know, like people who don't know anything else about the show but they'll know, like, that episode, you know. I think that episode is, like, the most universally known among people who, like, don't otherwise know anything about The X-Files.

[00:10:03] But they know, like, that or maybe Tombs, you know, they know something about, like, the liver-eating guy, you know, maybe Fluke Man. But I think those are the ones that, you know, seeped into, you know, very, like, casual viewership as well. So – or, like – Right. So, no, I think Villains is an interesting – because, you know, a lot of – you know, talk about top episodes or, like, you know, what got you into the show, that sort of thing.

[00:10:30] And I think it's a lesser explicit topic. I know people who watch it only for the comedy and others watch it for the Monster of the Week and others watch it for the serialized episodes. The rest doesn't matter. And so – and there's others who like it all. But I – much like kind of every other, like, Dick Wolf or Stephen Bochco production, it is hysterical seeing when Chris Carter, you know, develops Lone Gunman and sister show Millennium and seeing which actors he reuses. Yeah, it is.

[00:11:00] I'm a Millennium fan as well, and I'm hoping one of these days we get a streaming or a Blu-ray release for that. It really deserves it. I think it's possible because on another note for other Vancouver productions, we're finally – you know, I've been speaking to the Blood of Kings podcasters and they're – which talks about everything Highlander. And they're supervising people at VEI who are finally getting that damn Blu-ray remaster to come out for the entire show on cut and everything.

[00:11:28] And I think it is very possible that Millennium may very well join that. I mean – Oh, that would be amazing. I don't know what stopped people. I could have sworn maybe it was on one streaming site at one time or another. But all you can really find is the certain episodes on YouTube and everything. And I would like to think that, you know, Hulu being owned by Fox could definitely have it on. It seems odd because if you go back and look at the ratings, like the ratings – like, you know, during the 90s, the ratings weren't – you know, they weren't that great.

[00:11:57] They were sort of mid-tier show. But if you look at that compared to, like, viewership of TV shows now, like, Millennium was watched by way more people than shows that are considered very popular now. So it's – and then plus you've had – you know, that show was so ahead of its time because you have shows that came out after, like, Mindhunter and Hannibal. Right. So Criminal Minds and, you know, all these things. Criminal Minds is so inspired. Right.

[00:12:22] And so they owe a lot to – you know, sometimes admittedly they owe a lot to that. So it does seem like – and I know Chris Carter is talking about, you know, trying to reboot that as well too. So we'll see. You know, maybe something will happen with Millennium too. Totally. I was speaking with some of the other guys when we did the giant, ginormous chat, and it was so hysterical. Yeah, I listened to that one. That was a good discussion of all the shows. Yeah. Hopefully we gave it its worth.

[00:12:52] But it was funny how – yeah, just the writers have various viewpoints and it's like they're just so close. Well, I think that, you know, the X-Files was one of the first shows that I think people took notice of who the writers were. And, you know, a lot of big writers came from obviously Chris Carter, the creator, but obviously Vince Gilligan, who went on to do Breaking Bad and Better Cold Saw, which are amazing. And Howard Gordon, you know, did 24 and Homeland. He has a new show.

[00:13:22] Yeah, Chip Johansson. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Ben Morgan and James Wong. You know, all these people that came from – and like people would notice and have like their own personal favorites or like I like the Darren Morgan episodes the best. Or I like Vince Gilligan's episodes the best, you know. So I think way more than other TV shows people noticed who, you know, maybe some people did with Star Trek a bit. Like I think Star Trek was a little like, oh, this episode is going to suck because whoever wrote it.

[00:13:49] But I think with the X-Files, you know, all those main writers went on to do – They were pretty much all part of that same family. Yeah. They weren't on that, but they were going over to Buffy and then – it was so funny how David Fury was kind of part of their collective as well. And then he was on Lost for a season. Then he jumped ship too to do other stuff. They all kind of – If anything, it created their independence.

[00:14:16] It created their awareness of just being part of a collective. But it is also one of those – you kind of wish they'd talk about it more often. You're just like, dude, I want to know about more of your stories when you first got into it. You know, I already know about what you've done since. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, as I would have thought by now, Chris Carter, he was at one point one of the biggest producers. It was like kind of surprised he doesn't pitch more stuff more often.

[00:14:43] I mean, you know, he's a millionaire now, so, you know, he doesn't have – He doesn't need to, but it'd be cool if he – He had enough story to us. I mean, I would watch a hospital sci-fi show if he did money on it. I got to respect him for getting his money and running. True. No, that's true too.

[00:14:58] I mean, he could have very well – he did kind of imply in the Rick Rubin interview he did on that podcast that, you know, he's heard every kind of awful, arrogant, sexist, sometimes even bigoted response in an executive's room to where he just shakes his head and say, Oh, I do not want to be working for these people. Ah. So, I wouldn't be surprised.

[00:15:22] But to be fair, you know, like, for instance, other TV creators like John Wells are known for kind of overthinking some productions. And then you get David Chase, who's very cynical. And then you get Aaron Sorkin, who is going to be very fast-paced and talking, just like all his characters. So, it's funny how Chris is very calm, very collected, get a bit of a twang in his voice. I'm not sure where he's from, but you get some kind of accent.

[00:15:48] And he just seems just like, yes, we did that. It was successful. We did this. It sounded good on paper. We're sorry you did not like it. You know, he just seems very just – it's just very subdued, but in a good way. He's like, well, yeah, we tried that. And so, I really am surprised that he doesn't pitch some stuff more often or that someone doesn't blindly say, who are we talking? We don't need to hear a pitch from you. Sign me up, you know.

[00:16:18] So, how old is Chris Carter? Let's see. 69. Whoa. Whoa. 69, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it sounds like, oh, maybe the X-Files was late in his life. But it's like, yeah, no, he was kind of young at the time. So, yeah, I don't know. In 2011, he was developing something called Unique. It was a police TV series, but it was dropped before completion.

[00:16:46] So, this is where we give the tribute to him. So, yeah. What's up, CC? How you doing? How you doing, man? So, yeah. Before he had the after, yeah. It's just the after. He released an unreleased. He was going to write and direct an unreleased film called Fence Walker with starring Katie Cassidy. She'd already been the Black Christmas remake at that time. And Natalie Dormer.

[00:17:14] So, yeah, that's what he was working on. I like her. Oh, yes. Yeah. Very, very charming. Jesus. Natalie. But, yeah. Oh, Natalie, right. But his influences, you know, other than Frankenstein and Night Stalker and Twilight Zone. That was actually one of my questions I didn't get to ask, and I think it's a good one. Do you know what movies inspired the X-Files?

[00:17:43] Because it seems like there's a little All the President's Men going on. Am I right? There's a lot of inspiring in that. That one, even if they've never seen it, I mean, even just Watergate in general. Like the parking lots. The parking lots. It's like, oh, it really works. Definitely stole a sprain from an Alan Jay Paco movie for sure. I mean, even Pelican Brief. And that came out the same time as X-Files. Love that movie. Same here, yeah. Yeah, good movie. But it's so funny.

[00:18:13] He cited both the original Frankenstein movie from the 30s and the novel. He cited Wizard of Oz. That makes sense with some of the rabbit holes. He's a big fan of Spielberg movies. I mean, I... It's probably didn't get inspired by Alice in Wonderland. You know? I mean, it tracks. Especially Matrix alone. Go down the rabbit hole. So, I mean... But yeah. I always got Close Encounters stuff.

[00:18:40] I mean, Mulder makes the jokes about potatoes. But yeah. The Spooker films... One of these is post-X-Files. But the ones he's big fans of... And this will make sense when I tell you. He cites E.T. Naturally. Schindler's List. Which that makes sense with the death camps. And Munich. And that was after X-Files ended. So, I mean... You don't. And he does cite Twin Peaks. And so I'm glad to see that confirmation there. Because there was just so many... The company casting. The company casting.

[00:19:11] Yeah. Plus, just similar. And people are like, what do you mean? I'm like, I just mean just a very open-ended. Just David Lynch and Chris Carter are just kind of... They're in that same train for me. Just like... I'm okay with them keeping it open. Because it was intended that way. Versus, you know... They're just making shit up as they go along. You know, it's like... But... I would still compare him to a James Cameron type. Where he hires people who care. And he's just as much a movie guy as he is a filmmaker.

[00:19:39] And I don't have a problem with some of the... If there's an episode I don't care for that I don't think is good. I just think it's doing good. But I don't have a problem with his directing. I don't feel like he's on autopilot. I feel like he's been spending enough time on set that he knows how to... Request the cinematographer. Mark Day's stuff looks like really slick. It's well done. Some of the stuff with the first episode of season 11. It's like... The two main ones... It has a good look. The two main ones who helmed him is like... Yeah, they... Yeah. They gave it a movie look.

[00:20:09] And... Yeah. I mean... I'm not... I'm also not surprised that Vince Gilligan created Breaking Bad. Because same kind of... Yes. Small kind of... The lighting and directing is definitely... Even before you use some of the same filmmakers and supporting writers. I mean... They do similar shots. Whereas like... I can have a static shot and then someone slowly walks across the screen. And they still got our attention. It's like... Both these shows are total slow burns that they perfectly established. And so...

[00:20:37] So just another brief overview of just the accomplishments of the X-Files writers. Like... We've talked so much about Chris Carter. But... I mean... Frank Spotnitz. I gotta hand it to the guy. Like he is never... Not in charge of a show. I know most people are thinking... You work on... Robbery Homicide Division? Let's see. But... I mean... I applaud them though. Like... Can you think of...

[00:21:05] It's not uncommon for a writer to be part of a room and then just like be made the head writer. But... I mean... I think it's so awesome that Glenn Morgan brought in his sibling Darren. He was also an actor. And it's like... And they go off and do their own things. And... John Chabon... You know... He's done plenty of other directing. And... You know... He's been overseeing Law and Order Organized Crime recently. The Lady of the Stapler spinoff. But he's... Did so much in between. Like he oversaw Hell on Wheels.

[00:21:34] Which I know Ethan is familiar with. Yeah. That's a good one. Ozark. Yeah. He contributed a lot. So... He goes back and forth between being a showrunner and being a supporting writer. But... Like... And Howard Gordon... You know... I've spoken enough about him. But I'm just like... I... All the Buffy stuff. And... But the fact that... What he accomplished with the fifth season of 24. Just wow.

[00:22:03] Like he... That was a heck of a season. And he was the showrunner from the get-go. You know... So that's... Yeah. That's already awesome. And he knew... And he... In the interview I'm going to play is like... He... He... Anytime he's asked X-Files questions, he's like... Thanks. But no. It was all Morgan and Wong. And I was basically going... You know... Me and my writing partner Alex Gonza were going back and forth between... You know... Selling episodes for that and Beauty and the Beast. You know... We were... And...

[00:22:31] He's a very cool cat in that... He's kind of a political independent. But like... You know... His father was an outspoken, you know... Liberal activist. And his mother was a very reserved old school conservative. And... He was always caught in between just wanting to be friends with everybody. Wanting to understand them. And Alex... It's so cool that he got to work with him on not only 24, but then... You know... They... They look at... I talked to him a few times and... Yeah... He's...

[00:23:01] He's a really nice guy. I talked to him unfortunately on the day that Awake got cancelled. Which I thought was great. Oh man... That was a great show. It is a good show. That is their X-Files revisit. It's like a man... Yeah... It's a good show. How would you describe that? Because there wasn't really time travel. It was kind of more... How do I describe that show? That was... The creator, that Kyle Killen, he definitely had a unique style with that. And Lone Star and Mind Games.

[00:23:29] Everyone I know who worked on Lone Star was like, that show should have never been cancelled. But that was so... I know. Two episodes. It was like... Yeah. It was like, but here we're playing with alternate realities and some other... Yeah. Likeable character actors like BD Wong, Steve Harris... As... Yeah. But yeah, Alex Ganza is interesting. He's like, yeah, he... He just was just back and forth writing with Alex Ganza. He works on other stuff like Wolf Lake and Dawson's Creek and then joins Numbers and Entourage.

[00:23:58] But yeah. But yeah. Blue Diamond Phillips. Yep. That was good. Good actor. And... Yeah. He should have been on X-Files. Yeah. But yeah. When Ganza and Gordon were like, let's do Homeland. Let's remake this popular Israeli show, Prisoners of War, and make it its own. Which is kind of... And nowadays enough to talk about Israel, there's a bit of pushback nowadays. Yep. But Homeland was kind of more...

[00:24:28] I mean, that was a good just collaboration in that they brought the two lead writers on Homicide. Who unfortunately have left us now. But it was like, similar kind of deal. And then they brought in this one female writer who was on Grey's Anatomy and West Wing. It's like, we need you to punch up some of the politics, those final seventh and eighth year. And now they've been doing Accused, which is a remake of a British anthology legal show. But they really have amped it up. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:57] They always have actors in unrecognizable roles. So the stunt casting is down to a T. But you ask Howard, what's he doing? He's often reading a book or... He reads books too, doesn't he? His books that he's written have been pretty good. I've read some of those. And they're always like a mix between West Wing and Tom Clancy. Strange World. I'm talking about doing, right? Howard Gordon. Yeah, he writes books. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he did do Strange World.

[00:25:27] And that was basically his other X-Files type show. But, I mean, Alexganza is like, I think the reason they... Is it good? I recommend it. You can find it all on YouTube. We'll return after these messages. All right, folks. How's that here? We got a 90-minute weekly Shaq stop. It's growing all over the world. Find it at 2 p.m. and 10 p.m. Eastern time on Mondays. Then 3 p.m. on Wednesdays. Then 7 p.m. on Thursdays.

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[00:27:23] Do you ever find yourself thinking about who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman? Hi, I'm James Gavsey, and on the Who Would Win show, me and my co-host Ray ignore anything important happening in the outside world and debate fictional battles between characters from comics, movies, and video games. We got a new show every week, and almost always am I the winner. Yeah, not true, Ray. In the past, we've discussed such matches as Captain America vs. Darth Vader, Solid Snake vs. the Iron Giant, classic matchups like Robocop vs. Terminator,

[00:27:53] and even the Muppets vs. Sesame Street. That one was crazy. So if you're a fan of geek culture and love a spirited debate, check out the Who Would Win show wherever you get your podcasts, or check us out at whowouldwinshow.com. I think the reason accused is still being talked about, like Howard even said he got fan mail, like actual letters in the mail. That's so unheard of.

[00:28:19] It's like, and he's been using, again, the Showtime and Fox Networks for so many of his projects, but he seems just so lovely to pitch to. He's very gentle in interviews, which does a lot, because like all these shows are just so dramatic and intense, and like it's cool to know that you can actually talk to this guy, and there's no report of him. And 24... You know what we call Von William, right? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, he's overseen all these shows,

[00:28:48] but I mean, what's so funny is, much like the X-Files guys were pretty chill, they just are like, okay, you're going to write each like five to ten episodes a year. 24 was the same way, where despite there being people on different sides of political argument, absolutely none of them got in any arguments, which I think is just so weird and rare. It was like they either were conservative, but didn't want to make a big deal out of it, or moderate, or they were liberal, but preferred not to say. They're like, hey,

[00:29:16] we're working on a show which we can all get behind. And the only time they ever got an argument was just when they thought a plot twist was way too absurd, even by their implausible standards. I'm like, that's pretty good. If only three times you had one shutdown match, but they all, Gordon always says, X-Files is my training. That's what got me an idea of how to run a writer's room. But John Chabon, yeah, he's an interesting fella. It's like,

[00:29:48] you oversaw Lone Gunmen, you were on Star Trek Enterprise for a bit, didn't have a good time on that because you weren't given any creative freedom, and then his star power just keeps increasing. He writes for Supernatural, Legend of the Seeker, Smallville, then gets involved, you know, then Vince Gilligan, you know, has already overseen all the Lone Gunmen episodes. Go ahead. Then he's the biggest. Yeah. So Ethan, I have a question about 24. Like, I think over the,

[00:30:18] over the recent years, there's been a lot of, you know, debate about it. This legacy is kind of a bit mixed right now. I mean, currently, but what's going on in the United States right now. So, and what 24 does is like, at times it does glorify, you know, mass torture, et cetera. So like, how do you feel about that? Like all these years later about it? I don't think it glamorizes it. I don't think it, but I think it's, you definitely couldn't do a lot of the stuff on there now. Now it is a good thing to bring up.

[00:30:47] Cause I know they're working on the movie and I think it was just a perfect example of that was, I would definitely rank that up. There was really at that beach. I wish I was on the beach on the film here on the zoom, but yeah, I think everybody needs to go to the beach and just chill on a show. But I think 24 was definitely, I think I would definitely put it up there with homicide. Yeah, definitely movies like the sea. What's funny for it? So I do.

[00:31:16] I used in five, man. Yeah. I just, what they, you know, it's like they say 24 episodes, 22, 24 episodes on network television. It's a lot of episodes, obviously. Right. And, but there's, it's just, they kept it solid every single minute of that fifth season. Like it's just, even when there was a knowing stub, they wrote themselves out as quickly as they could. And the other was the star.

[00:31:42] But I think the reason I got into it was definitely similar to X files or SVU. These guys aren't playing around. There's going to be something different. I'm going to want to come back to these characters. Gregory Itzen was, he's amazing. You're a great actor. I, I loved him on that. I'm surprised. I didn't see him on the next files episode, but I would definitely characterize it as a homicide of its day where a lot of people are watching it, but not enough. And then slowly, everyone's like,

[00:32:12] you've got to put it on DVD. It does even better. It's better on streaming. But I wasn't ready. But that's it. Back on Fox. I thought it was. I thought it was. I mean, it was quite popular during the. I mean, it was popular, but I would always sit. But I think that's his debt. It was like pre streaming. So you saw so many who were like, oh, I missed an episode. I didn't record. I guess, you know, I better go onto the Fox website before it vanishes. So I think. Actually,

[00:32:39] this is interesting because it's like its syndication would vary once in a while, but it was always on somewhere, some affiliate. And I do wonder about. How they do the ratings, because it's like it seems like it always varies. Who's actually looking at the digital streaming numbers. You know, network TV is always going to be around, but you're never really getting as big a turnout unless they're sports, you know, and you air it right after that. So. Or there's a big award show, you know,

[00:33:08] so I think everyone's just got to get better, which is programming stuff is like, yeah, stuff on Fridays. It's just not going to be there. You should put something on in the middle of the week, like a Monday or Thursday, maybe a Saturday, you know, and. I, I, for, I think it is a little like X-Files though. I'll see. Anyone who's just total MAGA definitely doesn't watch something like that because it has to actually question it and they want mindless violence.

[00:33:36] I have seen others who are liberal minded and who don't want to mess with it at all. And I, it's a shame because I, it was tied with Sopranos for definitely being one of the shows, which definitely felt cinematic. It looks like a big, and you have to realize when they were filming a season, they, they've, they've been on the record several times saying it was like filming two giant movies in one summer. So, and I do find it funny though,

[00:34:05] when I look at some of the credits for Sopranos, as a contrast, there are a lot of people who have worked on millennium and X-Files. And I think that's just because they're used to filming a lot of those daydream sequences or people freaking out moments. So it's just, they have that vision. And I think anything that hasn't dated well, most people aren't going to make a fuss about it. Cause I mean, we already got edgy stuff like Ozark and just other crime shows. I think it just depends on what network it's on. And,

[00:34:36] but going back to John Chabon, like the, some of the other shows he was a member of, I mean, he did direct a lot of Better Call Saul and wrote on Breaking Bad, but I mean, he did two episodes of Torchwood Miracle Day. And after overseeing Hell on Wills as writer and director, he did do a really awesome show for Hulu with Jeffrey Donovan called Shut Eye. Basically. He likes that, huh? I recommend it for anyone who hasn't seen it.

[00:35:06] Have you seen it? Yeah. Well, it was just, yeah. Well, it is. Jeffrey Donovan though, but yeah, no, don't get me wrong. It is uncomfortable. And I just thought it was organized. No, that's fine. I, I was like, yeah, here's a film magician. He's working as a psychic and he's starting to have real visions. It's like, Whoa, what the hell's going on here? Um, and then he did that other show. Now it's for rot too, which is for us.

[00:35:36] Yeah. Right. But it's spelled with numbers. Yeah. It's on MC. And it's, I did want to see that. I think you'd like it. It's an uncanny kind of biker and vampire show that ran for two years. And, but yeah, like, so I'm was saying, he got involved briefly with Ozark, then always stayed, but was part of the first two seasons of supernatural. And yeah, I, I'm always,

[00:36:05] I actually do light up on him. Cause even when I wasn't always crazy about an episode, he did, I was like, you know, I can understand why he did something like that. Cause his style is kind of, he started, you got to realize he started off as just a co-writer or, you know, a story editor and then slowly worked his way. And, and, and I mean, like a lot of people, you know, a lot, a lot of people who are not inside in the industry to keep saying like, why is this guy, why does this guy get higher? Why does this guy keep getting higher?

[00:36:35] The reason is because, you know, I mean, sure there are people, you know, who are exceptionally, there are also people who need to, you know, make sure the script's already on time. Try to know, make us completely on time. So like, you know, there's obviously, you know, there are obviously these people who are company men, people who just do their jobs. You can be a good writer. That's what I feel John Scheiben did. I mean, one of the big problems Scheiben was, again, is at times, you know, when he comments on indigenous cultures and et cetera.

[00:37:03] And sometimes his stories lack of structure. I mean, he's probably, he's probably the weakest writer on that show. I think by a conservative margin, but still, I mean, he did, he has some of the good ones. I mean, he is involved with Dreamland, your favorite, as well as Monday and Christmas. But that's more of a, but I mean, that's more of a spot. That's Gilligan and Scheiben. Like, I don't know how much, but like at least, but he is no, I think Scheiben works pretty well in heists, in a more heist action situation.

[00:37:32] I think I love the pain. I love the pain. I love fairy. I think that's a good season. Leonard Betts and Scheiben. No, Red Queen. Oh yeah. His best episodes usually tend to be more collaborations. Yeah. Fair enough. I, I just find it interesting how he got asked to take over hell on wills. Like Tony and Joe Gaiden couldn't be on set all day. And they're like, we know this guy, he's been really down in the industry. Let's bring him on. But I think he's just gotten stronger as a writer overall.

[00:38:04] But yeah, Frank Spotnitz, I got a hats off to him because people forget, you know, he can't, he joined X-Files way later. I thought he was there from the get go. I was like, no, once, once Ganza and Gordon left and we'll get to Morgan and Wong later, but it's like, yeah, it's like, he was already part of. I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Wasn't, didn't you join the X-Files season two? I'm on one season two, I think. Uh, I'm seeing 96. So I would have thought that would be season three.

[00:38:32] 96 is like four is a season four. So there you go. Yeah. So he joins and he currently lives in London and, uh, and, uh, you know, he, he's since says, you know, done all kinds of stuff. He's done on sold TV pilots. He works on both X-Files movies, harsh round one gunman, but you were right. Like Ethan, he did work on Robert Havis side division. I didn't realize that, but that's a pretty cool combo. Yeah. Cause I remember the, yeah, it's like the writers that worked on that show.

[00:39:01] It's like, yeah, there were some great writers with, with Vince Gilligan. So, yeah, probably his biggest, uh, disappointment has been when he tried redoing cold check, the night stalker in 2000. right. Yeah. Gabriel union and, Stuart Townsend. Right. Yeah. It didn't really take off. I remember seeing parts of promos for that on sci-fi channel and being like, I don't know what that is, but it's just, I think that was an example of, it was an okay idea, but the execution wasn't there. So I think that goes back to so honest thing is like,

[00:39:31] these guys are surprisingly very positive. I haven't heard any sexual harassment or racism or any being an asshole behind the scenes. It's just sometime, even when they did like a politically incorrect episode, there's like, yeah, but you're just such a good writer. We're just going to let slide versus that was so poorly thought out. But I mean, he worked on so many international productions. So I was always blown away when I would see a show like strike back or hunted, you know, those are made for cinema. Oh yeah.

[00:39:59] HBO and the transporter show. And you're like, and they'd always be like from one of the writers of the X-Files. I'm like, which one? Oh, spot nets. And he'd done the very popular. It was like a six episodes, but they rebranded it as a mini series, a samurai girl on ABC family. So we kind of did a lot of quasi could have been comic book as shows and crossing lines. I did see reruns of that on.

[00:40:29] The Donald Sutherland. Sorry. Donald Sutherland. Isn't it that show or? Yes. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. He's on that. William Fickner. Yeah. I like him. Yeah. It was okay. It was just kind of one of those is like, basically you got this guy who's going after traffickers in. New York, but it was definitely filmed like overseas. And it was one of those. It's just like. Just reasonable,

[00:40:57] but it was like a international show. And then slowly it got picked up by Netflix for years after it come out. But. I remember we saw, I had some friends and family in town and we were just looking for something to watch. And we found this wacky four part. Part show on. From Canada that. Aired on Netflix the same year called the Indian detective, which had Russell Peters. And it was like a total, just like. Mockery of the whodunit thing. It was a very wacky casting crew. William Shatner was on it. It's like,

[00:41:27] man, what, what is this show? But. So I think that's his big deal too. He's just really good with. Writing different genres, especially comedy. But. Yeah, he's been overseeing other stuff like Medici. And. He was there the first year of man in the high castle, but I, now he's working on Leonardo. So he's back to the whole. Old school kind of period dramas was history. Set during the 1500s.

[00:41:54] But I did see ransom when that came onto TV. And I was like, what is this? A remake of the Mel Gibson. I didn't like that. The episode I saw. I didn't. I think they tried to do a Saturday night show for network. I think it was on channel 12 on like a Saturday night. It was CBS, but I know. I know what you mean. It. I thought it got better as it went along. It just, it was. During the 2010s when we had so much trouble just keeping up with everything. I, I just,

[00:42:23] I guess because I was a big fan of similar stuff like light of me. And. What's the other one? Profiler. I was like, okay. I, the characters are interesting, even though the mystery is kind of. Typical. So I was just like, but that was another co-production. Like that was a co-production between Canada, France, Germany, and the U S and that ran for free. And so I was like, I would watch it casually, but there were other episodes where I'm like, I'm losing track of what's going on here.

[00:42:52] That had some big star power. That had Michael Ironside as this recurring guy, bad apple. I was like, Whoa. But yeah, the first episode was a little rough. So, um, but yeah, Morgan and Wong. Uh, I, I was not surprised that they just kept constantly working together on American horror story. And, uh, it's like, and it's a shame. I think, I, I think Wong,

[00:43:20] I think Wong will work for, you know, American horror story. Glenn Morgan did not work with American horror story. Sorry. I love you. Like I, yeah, like I said, just, I just said that Morgan, I don't think Morgan and Wong both worked together on American horror story. I think it was wrong. Both of them are American horror story, not. I think it was James Wong. Because by the time that's, by the, by the time that's split up, uh, I think both of them had split up in different. Oh, okay.

[00:43:48] So I'm thinking of final destination free is what they worked on. They had already sold the story for the first movie as an abandoned X-Files episode. And, you know, the nightmare on Elm street writers took over that one, but yeah, sorry. Uh, but yeah, he also has an atypical concept. Kind of career where he's like, kind of like spotting us. He messes with comedy, adventure and mystery, but I'm sure Ethan will recognize that they've worked on movies together.

[00:44:17] Like the one with gently. And alert. That was good. Shit. Black Christmas. Yeah. So black. Like, it's not a movie, but it's bad. Yeah. But. I like the one. I like the final destination. Go ahead. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. I was saying, have you guys seen it? Jordan fields. Twilight zone reboot.

[00:44:46] Cause I think when we're working on a couple of episodes of that, too, in my opinion, I think it's, I'm looking for some of it. Yeah. I need to do a full rewatch of that. Um, I'm not seeing it, but I, I think there was some X-Files writer who worked on. And Jordan. Glenn Morgan worked on it. Glenn Morgan worked on it. I think that's the easy one. Not. Okay. It is Glenn Morgan. Okay. He was just,

[00:45:15] he wrote one episode and then was producer for the rest of the stuff. Okay. I don't know why Wikipedia wasn't showing that. uh, I, I, I had fun looking at some of their other shows. I mean, uh, probably the biggest stuff. I mean, again, so Darren worked on the, he was a consultant producer on the night stalker show with spot neds, but I actually really intruders is probably one of their biggest ones. It's like, that's a BBC America show. Oh, that was good.

[00:45:44] That, that, that is everyone who goes, Oh yeah. I'm really Bobby Brown, you know, with stranger things. I'm like, that's where I first saw her. It was on that show with a big American and British cast, you know, James Frayne, mirror, Cervino,, Tori Kittles from sons of anarchy. I'm like, yeah, that was good. And I remember just seeing the trailers for that. I'm like, I'm going to have to set the tape to record. I also like how they've done similar stuff, you know, it was like, cause again, you know, they long and, you know, Morgan have been, you know,

[00:46:14] we're on the millennium just as much as X files. But I mean, Darren started off as a story editor on X files season three and then went up from there. But the biotic woman show in the two thousands, I would have liked to see where that continued to go, but it just didn't have a chance to grow. And I didn't check it out for the longest time until I was in college for years after. And it was like, you know, yeah, I think cause didn't that air basically when one of those strikes was happening to do, that was the seven writer's strike. And it was like, there's a lot of battle star people.

[00:46:44] There's it's interesting. Once you just, I love that guy. He's dead now too. I can't believe it. And I'm like, but I'm morning and Mark Shepard, William Lee, Molly price from. Oh yeah. I was like, okay. Yeah. That was another example. I was like, I don't really want to give this a shot. Then I finally see it. I'm like, I want more. Was that one season or two? It was one. It was one, but it was like just six episodes. But it got a DVD released.

[00:47:14] It did. Yeah. They should have renewed it for streaming. They did remake this one show by the creator of the killing called those who kill for A and E. Joe Carnahan. Did he produce it? He directed an episode. Like the first episode. I saw that. Chloe Savini. Yeah. She was good on that. So you got James Morrison from space above and beyond. And X-Files. Yeah. They, they are always loyal to him. They will cast him. Two episodes. I like,

[00:47:44] and then it just, they basically. Yeah. It was like for A and E, they cancel it. They put it on sister channel lifetime. It's still barely less season. And then you're like, I still wish I saw James Morrison's career. I think he is such a wonderful acting space above and beyond. I liked him. I liked him. Millennium. I liked him. Brooklyn 99. Yep. He's, he's really great. He's still, he's still working. He does a lot of theater supposedly. Yeah. No, he, he is.

[00:48:14] He's a very good actor. I agree. Yeah. I mean, at least he got to be part of the 24. Well that, but then, I mean, just look at where he began. He was like a go-to guest star guy. Frazier North and South. But yeah. Morrison has just kept staying busy. He's had guest spots on castle twin peaks and the Orville, but yeah, twin peaks. Like he got to play in the prison weeks. Yeah. The third, the third season when it came back for showtime,

[00:48:43] he played the prison warden and he was on. There's the Morgan connection. And he was on Jordan pills, twilight zone. And, but yeah, he's been rolling freedom. Freedom. He was recurring. That was also Joe. So he was good at that for UPN. And yeah, we knew he was still getting work just like post 24. Cause like we would see him on our stuff, like point pleasant son, Fox movie. That's a good show. Yes, it was. Yeah. Movie roles, like grand show. Oh, he's one of the flight,

[00:49:13] uh, airline pilots and catch me if you can blink and a miss, but, uh, and, uh, brief pardon jar head. Uh, but we, we would see him recurring on like private practice and Hawthorne. And like, this is an interesting, cool cat where I just don't know where he's going to show up in the deal of things. He's done some decent indie films and, um, but he just has that very soft, you know, deep voice. And he teaches yoga. Yeah. Awesome.

[00:49:44] And yeah, that's right. I thought it was cool that the company did get to write a bunch. Cause I had no idea. I thought he just, you know, guest director or something like many actors do. It was like, Nope. He, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, uh, going on to Glenn's brother, Darren. Um, uh, he, he, he's also just crazy talented where you're just like, yeah, you're, you're the fluke man, but you're something,

[00:50:13] you're more than that. You're more than the giant worm creature. You've, you know, he's, uh, you know, he also would get involved in other stuff with spot. Ned sent his brother, but outside of that, they did this Disney show called tower prep, which was kind of a fun. Yeah. boarding school for teens. Uh, it was okay. I didn't mind it, but I was just like, uh, also worked on those who kill intruders. So yeah, he kind of just,

[00:50:42] and bionic woman in fringe. So he kind of just would help out with stuff in addition, uh, for his brother. Which I don't think he's working on television though. This one is he, I think the last credit, I think was his ex thoughts. We good. And prior to that, he worked on the intruders, right? Yeah. So he, he's just kind of been here and there. Um, he's still a part of convention stuff. I've seen. Yeah. They still show up. He apparently, so this does go back to Joel silver, believe it or not, Ethan. Uh,

[00:51:12] uh, Darren's deal was he first got on the scene by doing some, he was doing some brief acting roles again on Stephen J. Cannell's jump street and come ish. And then where his brother was writing then. And then Joel silver hired him to write, uh, the, the original second tells from the crypt movie called dead easy. And that, that did not go through, but they have since, uh, done, uh, I know the name.

[00:51:41] I know more James Wong and, you know, but yeah, Glenn Morgan, but yeah. But yeah, Adler and cats have since done a table read of that script. Cause it was pretty hot shit. And it often got mistaken for, from dust till dawn is like similar, but that was, that became its own thing. And so, yeah, but yeah, the same as demon night. Yeah. This was at, this was after demon night and. Okay. Yeah. But, but I know it's all confusing because they're almost every movie that was on

[00:52:11] the table would be like, Hey, this is action. This is gory horror. This must be a tilt from the crypt movie. And then a lot of them get rehashed irregardless for a future project, which is even more fun. Yeah. Yeah, man. I, it's a shame that. Uh, the adventure, the 100 lives of blackjack savage, uh, doesn't get talked about enough. Cause that's a early 90 show. I've heard of that too, but I haven't seen it.

[00:52:40] It's so good. It's Steven canal. Uh, Kim matters directed it. Tucker gates. And some of those, and Nutter and Whitmore jr. Dress for it. But yeah, that was a long Morgan canal. Cause I've ever reading that title. I mean, the title gets your attention. So like, it's just awesome. And that's where Steven Williams, Mr. X he's on there is. Oh, he's a good actor. The title character. So they do it for Disney. Mason goes to hell. Yep.

[00:53:10] That's where I first saw him. And so I was like, it's the first, the Disney wonderful world, a Disney TV movie. They rework it. They recast blackjack savage. And then they, they, they met, they put it on NBC for seven episodes and I'm watching it. And I'm like, this is just like Briscoe County jr. Literally just like that. Yeah. Someone in the industry surely should have seen this before they made stuff like pirates of the Caribbean. Cause it's that it's a modern day kind of,

[00:53:39] it's like renegade, but way better with. And it's like a pilot episode crack. It'd be better than renegade. It's way better than renegade, but I'm just giving an example of I'm on the run. I got this recurring mystery. And I mean, what, what a weird Daniel Kelly. So there's a track guy. He's already done hardcastle McCormick at this rate, but I love it. He's like, he's the ghost of a legendary 17th century Caribbean pirate.

[00:54:09] And yeah, he teams up with this crooked wall street con artists and they escape trial by coming to the Caribbean. And this, they encounter pirates and other sharks and it's just fun, fun, fun, fun. And it did not. Yeah. I could see my audience. Yeah. And my post, he was this, the go-to for doing catchy TV. Right. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I, you can find it all on YouTube.

[00:54:39] And if you guys watch it, you'll be like, Whoa, why did Disney bury this? This was fun. I mean, it was their assholes. They are assholes. You can't tell me that someone didn't say, well, you know, we'll do pirates of the Caribbean. We just can't cancel it. Like black Jack Savage was like, they didn't think it was going to be a hit. Right. Yeah. That happens. But Jerry, what is it? Johnny Depp with his performance. They were like, I don't know. Well,

[00:55:07] I'm just recommending the show just because. I know. I'm just kidding. Yeah. Because it's like, I totally see a lot of their characterization of the lone gunman in this show. So I think. I think that's the beauty of X-Files. I think the fans. Usually when I see other fan bases, fans just want you to just keep doing that. These guys are awesome because they're kind of like the actors. You actually do want to check out other stuff they've worked on. And because they are so diverse, you can't argue their talent.

[00:55:37] Like it's not. It's not limited. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, spot. And it's, I think is the most fascinating interviews and Vince Gilligan. You got to realize, you know, it's like he had in between stuff, but it was pretty much just went from X-Files and then did all the funny episodes for that and lone gunman and then did breaking bad. And. Home fries. Yeah, that's right. He did do home fry. Shoot.

[00:56:07] I liked it. Yeah. I liked it. I still need to finish battle Creek, but it is just so funny how. Eh. Not a fan. Okay. No, it's fine. I just. I watched all of it too, but. Did it not go anywhere? Or. Oh man. Yeah. It's like the first episode's good. And then after that, it's just like, okay, CBS formula. Formula. Gotcha. He hasn't spoken about it much surprisingly. So that might be why, but yeah,

[00:56:35] it is so funny seeing him on community, both playing himself and contributing to some stuff. But. Yeah. I, it's wild how Pluribus is just taken off. Like it's. I haven't seen it yet. And basically think of every Karen you can think of. This is kind of, he, he already had described it as a twilight zone type show with his, with Kim Wexler from better call Saul, you know? Yeah. Rhea. Rhea Seaborn. Rhea Seaborn. Who's amazing.

[00:57:02] But I did see Walter Napalm just casually on movie channels growing up. And I could see why he reused that premise for. The pusher episode of X files. Cause I was like, yeah, that's, that's a crazy two brothers starting fires with their mind and in love fighting over a woman. That's a crazy premise, but. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I watched the trailer. I haven't seen it, but yeah. But yeah, growing up, I, you know,

[00:57:30] having seen home fries every time I was on ABC family and seeing Hancock in theaters, I would have never put two and do together. It's like, yeah, that's the breaking bad X files guy. I was like, it's like Hancock. Yeah. He was one of the many, many guys who rewrote it several times, but yeah. Oh, yeah. The Will Smith vanity project. It's pretty much it. So that's the problem is like when you have that many cooks in the kitchen, good or bad, you,

[00:58:00] you're having, you're going to have a slightly uneven project. Cause I personally did do find a lot to like in it, but there are some rough moments. I think the uncut version of it solves some issues. Yeah. But unfortunately most versions people watch are going to be the people PG 13 versions. Like, yeah. And it's so funny. My uncle had the uncut version growing up. He's like, you might want to watch that. It's I'm like, uh, uncle Joe, I've already seen this movie three times in theaters. What are you talking about?

[00:58:31] It's so funny. He's like, Oh, Oh, so I have the uncut version. I'm like, yeah, that, why do you think they call it on rated when it's real, but he seems pretty nice in interviews too. I don't, I don't get any snarkiness from him. For Vince, right? Vince Gilligan. Yeah. Yeah. He seems, he seems composed. Like he's pretty humble. Like I've seen as, you know, his interviews on Breaking Bad,

[00:59:01] Verical Saul, you know, I think Verical Saul, he credits Peter Gold for it more than himself. But I think, yeah, Gold co-created that. And he basically made the head writer on Saul. But I think that's their thing too. Like these guys, they never, I mean, you can't avoid ego and vanity, but sometimes you can, but they, they give each other proper credit. Like Chris Carter never pulled a Josh Whedon where I came up with everything. It's like, no, no, no, no. Josh Whedon. Goddamn. Right.

[00:59:31] Can't be alone with a girl. I mean, I'm watching Buffy right now. So. No, we're not saying you can't. Good stuff, but it's just. right. We're like, like he walks on water. We're getting annoyed at the persona. The writers in all fairness of Buffy did enjoy working with them, but it seemed more of a thing where he just would bully his actors. Or he would kill them off if he knew they were popular people. So that's the only thing I don't like about Whedon, but it was like Chris, you know,

[01:00:00] he will give proper credit. He'll be like, I let Wong and Morgan have fun with this arc. I knew the main arc and I did that, you know, like he would do the closers and the finales and the in-between stuff and the stuff doing it and Mulder. And, you know, Vince did all the funny stuff. So it is very much like the Star Trek stuff where, uh, Naren Shankar is going to do all the sci-fi and time travel and data episodes. And Ronald D Moore, you know, pre post before good versus evil and battle star and for all mankind,

[01:00:29] he's doing all the war based and Klingon episodes. So I definitely, it is kind of like how Ori was mentioning cliff bowl and another thing. I think they were so wise to get genre people to direct these episodes as well as directors who'd done movies before, like Dwight H little, who are good with horror and action to do millennium next fall. So, I mean, they definitely, they struck out gold because I see so many other movies or shows where I'll see

[01:00:58] people directing or writing for them, but just aren't a good fit. You're like, that doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure if you're challenging yourself or you just need work, you know, it's like, you gotta get people who just understand the art. Well, and now that TV is now cool shit. Now I think they've warmed up to it. It's like, okay, it's longer days, but I get some creative freedom. If I stick this out, you know,

[01:01:25] like I'll be the lead director if I stick it out or if I'm a producer, I can hire some of my other buddies who are also crazy talented. So kind of like what Mick Garris was doing, where he would adapt every other Stephen King series is like just, and it's so funny when you hear Mick Garris say, yeah, he would have never been hired by Spielberg to create amazing stories that he had Spielberg seen the very depressing Disney movie he directed. So, but what did he direct? He,

[01:01:53] it was like a wonderful world of Disney movie. That was very realistic about drug addiction and overcoming odds and really sad. And Spielberg was like, had I seen that movie, I would have never hired you. That would have been too grim. So I think it helps that a lot of these guys, I don't, I can't find anything else. I'm sure. So I might've seen more. I can't really see, find anything else on how Chris Carter hired them. Other than, because for the most, this was like their first, just running the door and pitching ideas.

[01:02:24] and at the same time, you got to realize X files, everyone wanted to be on because they're like, it's not anything you ever seen before. It's going to be different every week. So. Usually the goal with any new show is to hit a hundred episodes. Yeah. Actually 50, then a hundred. It's like every 50 episodes. Like if you get to 50, yeah, you're a hit. If you get to a hundred, it's a milestone. Cause most people can't get past the first season. Kind of like the early days of comic books. You have to sell X number of books. right? Yeah.

[01:02:54] Syndication. And I'll get to that, but like, it kind of like how you need X number of words for a bestselling book. You need to sell X number of copies for this comic book to be successful. And yeah, with syndication, it is wild. It used to be, you just need to be on for three years. And now in recent years, they've spiked it up. It has to be on for four years. And without fail, I'm now seeing all the streamers and networks cancel something before it's even had even.

[01:03:24] I don't know if law and order SVU can do it. I like that. Criminal minds. No way. Yeah. There's no way you ever end. Probably not. Probably not. But if they do, they better make it fucking epic. Word. How do you keep up a law and order in criminal minds? Those are like 12, 15, 20. Well, that's what I appreciate. They did get them shorter to where there's like 15 or episodes. I'm like, okay,

[01:03:54] that's doable. Is that what they're doing now? Yes. Thank God. Oh, okay. I didn't know that. All right. During some of the recent strikes, a lot of shows did start doing 10 season episodes. And then I think that's better. Yeah. I think it's good. Yeah. Because, yeah, I mean, you can only keep up with so many cartoons and other stuff. And. That's because cartoons are singular stories. Right. It's not hard to catch up on Bob's Burgers or Simpsons.

[01:04:24] What happened last week? I don't know. Let's go back two seasons and find out. I went through a guy. I don't know why he did this to himself. I'd have to ask him, but I'm not friends with him anymore because he's douche. But he used to tell me this funny story, how he was watching Supernatural and reverse chronologic order just to catch up. I'm like, why? That has to be very confusing. Who got possessed by what demon and who escaped the apocalypse? And I'm like, yeah,

[01:04:52] I could not do in reverse chronologic order. I mean, it has been done, but. Yeah. I'll pass. Yeah. I. But that's the other thing, too. Like. We have mentioned it before. Sometimes when we give up on a show, it's not that it's bad necessarily. It's just I cannot continue. Like I've given so much energy. I got to catch up on all the other movies. That was me. It was Supernatural. I quit after season 11. I was like, oh, fuck this shit.

[01:05:22] Too much. But I do appreciate how that's for more of a teen audience. And everybody was watching it. Even. How many seasons did that do? 15. Yeah. Jesus. Let me check. You couldn't chuck it out till 15. Nope. Fuck that. How many seasons? 15 seasons. OK, good. Just keep making sure. But I was surprised by myself. I'm like, yeah, is it going to be on longer than walking dead? Nope. Like kind of 20 years.

[01:05:52] There are. There's other shows where. Where like criminal minds, which are pretty good. And that's as close as you get to X-Files type horror on TV. You are seeing legit people having their guts spilled. And I'm like, I don't know how they even air this, but now it's on streaming. So they're getting away with more language and death traps. But I find that that's an example of a show, which I did not bother with for the longest time. I'm like, I'm not into Hannibal Lecter and saw type shit. But I watch it in recent years. I binge it.

[01:06:21] And I totally see how I was like, yeah, if you just excised like two. Meh or crappy seasons from that. It wouldn't be as oversaturated as is now. So I think that's the other thing, too, is like. I think people need to rewrite a lot of stuff. Yeah, maybe they could do what they did with the rest of development with some of these shows where they they're like that last season wasn't any good. Let's recut it. Here's the producer's cut. Yeah, for real.

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