Visionary Filmmaker Sidney Lumet Tribute + Retrospect (with Patrick Darms and Ethan Weeks!)

[00:00:00] This podcast is a production of Unfiltered Studios. If you would like to know more about joining Unfiltered Studios, please visit our website at unfpod.com for more information. Lament. Sorry, yes. It is like lamenting, but yeah. Sidney Lumet. Thank you for catching me before I fucked up the whole episode.

[00:00:23] You know, we're not in control of the result. We don't know what the result is going to be, ever. The only thing we are in control of is our own behavior. Yes. And for want of a better word, it's very nice when it at least struggles for its own purity and for its own sense of what you began with, what you wanted out of life. I'm a great believer in adolescence that way. An awful lot of good stuff comes out there.

[00:00:50] You're in your 70s. Do you love it as much as you did when you began? I think more so, because I'm learning it finally. You know, it just does take time. Just the stuff you can throw out, that's really what you do, I think.

[00:01:11] You know, if your work is going to get better, I think you get rid of stuff. I don't shoot fancily. I don't make it one of those visual pyrotechnical displays. I think that's all nonsense. And just to go simply and tell the truth. But do you worry a little bit, speaking of visual, there's a new movie I call Fifth Element, I think, which will probably be very successful, developed by Luc Bresson. Luc Bresson, yeah. And starring Bruce Willis and others. And that's way into the world of pyrotechnics and all that.

[00:01:40] On the other hand, we have seen very small focus films get a lot of attention. Sling Blade 1. Right. Is that where we're going? It's either going to be this or this, or does your movie represent sort of somewhere in between in terms of being a Hollywood-financed film? I genuinely don't know, Charlie. I worry. I worry. Because, you know, they have, these people who run these studios are not fools.

[00:02:10] They can show you that they are better off doing a $100 million movie and focusing all attention on that than they are doing 10, $10 million movies. The results are better financially. So that starts dealing with the audience right away and what taste has become. So I don't know. I may be a fossil. I may outgrow it.

[00:03:19] Sidney Lumet's father was a guy named Baruch Lumet. And Baruch Lumet was in, if you ever see Mystery Science Theater, he's in the Killer Shrews. He plays the professor. Yeah. So his father was a B-movie actor? His father was in the Yiddish Theater, which is a big, big thing back in, like, the- That is the best part about Killer Shrews. That's for sure. And I'm looking at, like, Baruch Lumet and, like, lit up when I was like, oh, Sidney Lumet's dad, you know.

[00:03:48] So that was something I was kind of like going, holy shit, you know. So I couldn't believe that when I saw that. I was like, wow. We're talking about a great man. We lost him to, yeah, 2011 at age 86 to Leukemia. He has received five Oscar and seven Directors Guild of America nominations. He got an honorary Academy Award in 2005 for services to screenwriters, performers, and the arts of motion pictures. He's a New York native.

[00:04:14] He has a wonderful daughter, Jenny, who made that indie film Rachel at the Wedding with Anne Hathaway. Yeah. That made her be a critic's darling. Gil would have seen her because she's one of the showrunners on Star Trek's Strange New Worlds, which is back in DS9 level. Yeah, that one heard the New York Film Critics Circle, Toronto Film Critics Association, and Washington, D.C. Area Film Critics Award. So he's got some creative bloodlines. But every actor I've heard ever talk about him, they're like, respect, respect, respect.

[00:04:42] Well, he had a military background, so. That's why I think he's so good at these war movies because, like, and they're atypical war movies. You know, both The Hill and The Pawn Broker do not show any scenes of violence, let alone warfare. But you feel like you have because you're shell-shocked, literally. So, and same thing with these crime movies. They're action-packed and it just shows you, it's like, you know, Hollywood nowadays spends, for better or worse, there's good movies and there's bad. But they spend so much trying to get the fights, the, you know, workout regime.

[00:05:12] They just don't got to worry about the story. The intensity will make you feel like you've seen more than you've actually seen, you know? For all I care, there's shootouts in Dog Day Afternoon. There isn't, but it feels like there is because it's just so fucking exciting. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. It's darkly amusing to have levity. And then it doesn't matter at the end of the day. Like, I'm going to remember all those themes, all those incredible, unrecognizable actors.

[00:05:39] It is so funny, though, how you get into this routine where it's like he's kind of got it all figured out. There's going to be some commentary on the media, the news media. There's going to be something on cops and those who police them. And then there's going to be something definitely on the gray line of lawyers. And then sometimes there's none of that. But he still, as one of my infamous professors at my college used to say, he is the actor's director. And he couldn't have said it better, actually. Yeah. You know, he's a Playhouse 90 native.

[00:06:09] Yeah. I mean, he started out as a child actor on stage. Now that I didn't know, but we have a wonderful guest here today. We have the one, the only Patrick Darbs from Why Wasn't It Better? Where he analyzes underrated, underseen, infamous, and then sometimes divisive works of art. And what could improve for better or worse? Thank you for joining. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. You are too kind. I look forward to having you back on the pod.

[00:06:38] You've already appeared. We're talking about the airport movies. Yeah, of course. I mean, I won't lie to you. I had to struggle to find guests to appear on an airport sequel episode. I love Disastered. Oh, Jesus. It's a hell of a franchise. Hair, black, and cross-eyed. That's all I'm going to say. That's the one we're doing, 75. All right, perfect. I'll keep open to the channels if you want. I'll put an Instagram message. But yeah, I mean, there's going to be plenty of disaster films in here. But like, Lament is, he has some interesting trivia.

[00:07:06] Yeah, according to The Hollywood Reporter, he foresaw many international voices in the future of film, starting with making all these gritty New York films. But the first one was The Pond Broker. It wasn't exactly how he viewed the next wave of filmmakers, but he also just found, hey, we're making films about everybody, Jews, Italians, Irish, because he didn't know anything else in his own words. He does have that memoir book, Making Movies, that he published in 96.

[00:07:34] I have always seen it quoted, and I can never find a copy. It must be your collector's item by now, I'm sure. The Pond Broker was just, I mean, I can remember my mother telling me that. That was the original Schindler's List. That was Rod Steiger going to like... You may not watch it again, but you will never forget it. Because you're just like, whoa, that's Jewish heritage. That's acceptance in the world. That's getting over bigotry and wrongs. That's learning to live again. That's Rod Steiger becoming a bigger star.

[00:08:04] That's Morgan Freeman's first movie as one of the actors. If I can remember correctly, there's a scene where he cuts his arm open with glass or his hand with glass or something like that. Because he's this Jewish guy who's basically through the Holocaust. Yes. And Steiger at that time was known as, you know, up there with Brando. And this kind of like, you know, where Brando was starting to get sloppy, you know, Steiger was pushing it, you know, like trying to go, you know, like trying to create a sonic boom with his acting.

[00:08:34] Because you got to look at that time. That's what I feel. Like, Sidney is kind of the next Elliot Kazan. Like Elliot, you know, does the whole, this is how you stage. This is how you script. This is how you get the actor's performance. And Lament is kind of just going up and he's doing that a little bit of that even more, not steroid induced. I feel like that would be derogatory. What he's really kind of doing is just like, he's going into the motivations and then he's

[00:09:03] not overthinking this. Even actors who are known for being difficult, they all give, they all behave around him. It's like, you get me, buddy. You know, like he, he worked for God's sakes with Faye Dunaway on network. Can you, you know, she wasn't easy to get along with. Probably the right ring in the, you know, ring in the ego on that one. You got to deal with William Holden, who's known for being intense, but sometimes he would unintentionally intimidate others. You know, Pete, Pete, that's Pete. Finch, Peter Finch's last role. Yeah. So Finch, I think, was not feeling well at the time. Absolutely.

[00:09:33] And he's given it his all. And infamously, but famously, Sidney had an awesome show, which I actually own on a Region 4 DVD. It's not widely available, but he did the show for A&E that he created and directed all the episodes for 100 Center Street that starred Alan Arkin. Oh, I kind of remember that. It's a very sleeper hit. It's a good show. If I can find a DVD ripper, I will rip that sucker to YouTube.

[00:10:00] But he filmed it during after the terrorist attacks in 9-11. Yeah. And not all New York shows were welcome back right away. And he continued to shoot his show there for the remainder of the day. And he told the crew, you can leave if you want. But none of them did. You're like, OK, he's not trying to be insensitive. He just wants to make a pure New York show. Yeah. According to Roger Ebert, Lumet had a theory about why Marlon Brando's performances were so uneven.

[00:10:28] In a review of a bad film starring Brando, they didn't say which one in the trivia. Roger Ebert outlined this idea in detail. Lumet said that the first scene he filmed for any director, Brando would do exactly two takes. In one of the takes, Brando would be putting technical and background research into the reading. In the other, he would simply recite the lines as blandly as possible. If the director used the bland take, Brandon would proceed to sleepwalk through his performance for the entirety filming. So he is the actor's director.

[00:10:56] He is figuring out your rhythms, your energy, your pulse. I think just off of reading that thing that he told Roger Ebert that Ebert recited, in my opinion. To me, it's always been the way he he thinks about everything in the in the game. I mean, if you watch the movie Failsafe, which is in 1964. Yeah, 64. So we're starting. Same time as Dr. Strangelove comes out. One is a comedy. One's a serious drama.

[00:11:27] Patrick, you can chime in on this. What movies and shows do you feel pay tribute to LeMay the most? Because he's kind of been movie DNA now. Like when I watch even a corridor scene of the West Wing, I do get kind of a fail safe kind of vibe. There's nothing on screen, but the urgency is unfeasible. And I've seen many people from The New York Times and other and The New Yorker and other blog sites note how The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, 24, every other William Freakin'

[00:11:56] or Michael Mann movie totally has the Sidney Lumet kind of DNA and just hard men, hard times, the rough and tumble and grit, the corruption. You know, like The Shield and Hill Street Blues. Those are basically Serpico, the TV show. But then you get other movies and shows where it's like that's a total dog day afternoon. Or I mean, like the newsroom alone is kind of a network homage. But what do you make of his influence and his imitations and his homages?

[00:12:25] I think in some ways it's a little hard to nail down. I was certainly going to say The Wire and anything David Simon has done. The media is the words. The cops aren't prepared for any of this. Lumet certainly gravitated towards that in his career, this like corruption of institutions thing and, you know, big cities. And you got these Robin Hood type criminals doing robberies, you know? He's such an interesting filmmaker because he is a little bit of a chameleon.

[00:12:54] Like I would struggle to tell you what his actual technique is. Like what is he known for? He kind of did so many different things. He is a little bit like Steven Bochco later is as a TV producer where he's kind of moody. And then at the same time, kind of like Coppola, except minus kind of the now I got to do this movie I don't want to do in order to get this one I do want to do.

[00:13:21] He kind of abandons the workman like deal. Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of good, I would say, or decent workman like filmmakers. He's all about what do I believe in? How do I get the heart of the scene and make you see it? And I mean, he has done so many movies that had troubled production histories and he's not a John Ford where he just rips the script up and says, fuck it. He's kind of more. I will make you make this work.

[00:13:51] I will make all of you make it work without having to cater to, you know, just relying on the actors sitting on their shoulder or having my cinematographer just do a cool tracking shot. It's like, no, we're going to just let it kind of just speak for itself and the camera will love you. It'll love this whole production, regardless of how much set design we got. Yeah. Like by his own admission, he would do work just for because he needed the work.

[00:14:18] He wasn't afraid to turn down projects simply because, frankly, he needed money or he, you know, he wanted to work on other projects. So he would do things to fund those other kinds of projects. Never be held against a filmmaker. Well, yeah, absolutely. I'm not trying to make everyone seem like a whore. It's just interesting in that it would be really hard for him to fuck it up or just over. Oh, yeah. We'll return after these messages. Hi, folks. How's that here?

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[00:17:07] or check us out at whowouldwinshow.com. His comedies, there's this one he did with Candace Burgeon that wasn't as successful, but I could see why he was attracted to it. He wanted to just kind of show these different socialites and... Oh, the group. That's what it was. They're all spoiled and everything. I don't think it completely works as a comedy, but I was glad I saw it, because he got the characters down. It's not a comedy.

[00:17:36] It's more like a character study of these people that they kind of are like... It's often labeled as a comedy, so that might be it. Yeah, it's not a comedy. It's satirical. It's not ha-ha. And so, dare I say, he's kind of an Alan J. Pacula type. You know, Pacula strikes it out and just is able to do whatever he wants after all the president's men. You know, and you use Michael Norris, Coppola and Woody Allen's go-to cinematographer.

[00:18:01] But yeah, Lament, like you say, he does have a signature style, where he often has crooked cops and greedy news reporters and celebs who are letting you behind the curtain and war victims. But as Gil was telling me off-air, he had seen the dark comedy with James Spader and Helen Miriam. Critical Care. Critical Care. And same deal. He's like, I would have never known. That's the director of 12 Angry Men.

[00:18:29] As we were joking off-screen, it's like, everyone knows 12 Angry Men, but people sometimes forget that's the future director of Serpico Network. Well, you know, he's the Super Serpico and Dog Day Afternoon, but he's also done something like The Wiz. Yeah. And James and I are fans of that, but it's interesting how he took that so hard. I think he, much like William Freakin', he didn't mix words. He would go, yeah, you guys hated that movie. That was my favorite movie to work on.

[00:18:55] And he took it so badly, but he kind of learned that you can't predict the audience. You can't make them all happy. But instead of just saying, ah, fuck you all, you know, he just was like, eh, sorry, man. Like, I'm sorry. I just, well, I did what I could. The thing I always say is that, you know, he has this run in the 70s, okay? And I was just looking at this right now. Big run in the 70s. And I'm talking like a major run. Like, he does Serpico, Murder on the Orient Express.

[00:19:26] Goes right over to Dog Day Afternoon Network. Equus. Oh, he does The Wiz. You know, the Anderson tapes. You know, he does that. He does The Offense. You know, I was looking at this. I was like, you know, Equus. He does all these movies. Equus is such a good... People forget. That is the future... What a good actor. He plays Harry Pierce on MI5. You know him as the one traitor in Hunt for Red October. Peter Finch? Peter Firth. Peter Firth.

[00:19:56] Peter Firth, yeah. I love that man. But he is... It's really the last credible Richard Burton performance? Yeah. Probably. You know, he kind of... Alcoholism kind of ruined him. I'd say, LeMet, he kind of defines 70s New York, I'm thinking. Oh, yeah. Which says a lot. And we're not trying to belittle other New York guys. I mean, there are the Woody Allen's and Coppola's, but he is interesting in that he kind of wants to show you the underbelly. Here's where people go to lunch. Here's where people go to do their, you know,

[00:20:25] gather at their religious rituals. Here's where people just meet after work and, you know, shoot the shit. He brings every scene to life for me, personally. He's voted number 42 as greatest director on AFI. For me, that is too low. He would be my top 10, personally. Not for everyone. But, like, I am just like... He makes every scene work. I never... I rarely feel like he wasted it or he thought twice. And if he did, but...

[00:20:50] He seems very keen on the editing process as much as he does getting the actors there and making sure their dialogue is mesmerizing and realistic. Second, because he already knew how to do that. He already knew how to work every genre, which is why he's in my top filmmakers. He just... He's diverse. I think he has to be ranked higher than that list you cited because there are not many filmmakers that fall under the category when you have all these actors, not just actors, but the

[00:21:19] biggest actors in the world who are taking discounts to work with a director and they're returning to work with this director. That kind of says it all to me as just like a consumer of film. It's like if all these actors are saying the same thing about this filmmaker... And I'm trying to think of who a modern day equivalent of this would be. There may not be one, but I mean someone like Christopher Nolan. All these actors who were trying to be in his film. Maybe Dennis Vinavi? Yeah. I mean, it's a short list for sure.

[00:21:48] And that's why he really is an all-time great. And that's kind of the sad thing too. You got people who like these movies. They love those kinds of movies. But they don't know how to explain why they're good. They often just say, oh, it sucks. Or it's, oh, it's good. I'm like, but why? Uh, I don't know. I was going to say like before, he started out as a child actor on stage when he was like four years old. He went off and later on to, you know, be in the war. I think he was a radar technician.

[00:22:18] Yes. In the war. Yeah. Um, when he comes back, you know, he's starting to do things like he's directing live television, like 200 episodes of live television. Yeah. And, and, you know, where, you know, mistakes can happen and stuff like that. So he's probably learning how to try to adjust and handle things on the fly. Okay. You know, and also his filming schedule, usually everybody else is usually like 70 to 100 days. His was always like anywhere between 30 and 40 days. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:46] That's a pretty good, consistent working grind to where I think this is it. He lets everyone in on how they're going to do stuff. I've, I've heard of some difficult, like getting started, but I've never heard of anyone say, I do not respect that Sydney guy. I've never heard of anyone say, you know, I refuse to work with them. He doesn't know what he's doing. He's in his own. Well, that's why I was thinking he's probably very regimented, like his military background kind of made him very regimented. And this is what we're doing. He's showing his vision.

[00:23:15] And because, you know, Spielberg's the patient guy and Scorsese is the we're going to do this and we're going to bring, you know, this kind of classic, you know, 40s, 50s vibe freaking is like, you fuck up. You're out of here. So it is funny seeing this kind of grit and then chill. But for this segment, welcome fellow movie buff, Ethan Wicks. Welcome back. And I know you are. We're all huge Joel Silver guys.

[00:23:40] But would you say Silver loves Lamette, given how he goes for all that just kind of just smoking guns and just adrenaline pumping, just walking down all those gritty L.A. streets in his movies? Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, he stole his cinematographer from the verdict and made him do all those questionable, you know, Jet Li and DMX movies.

[00:24:11] Oh, yeah. You're right. I don't know how to pronounce his name, but the Russian. Yeah. I got some cool trivia for you guys here. So 17 different directors and Oscar nominated performances by our man, Sidney. We got Catherine Hepburn, Rod Steiger, Al Pacino, Ingrid Bergman, Albert Finney, Chris Sarandon. And if you're still with me, Bane Dunaway, Peter Finch, Beatrice Strait, William Holden,

[00:24:39] Ned Beatty, Peter Firth. Yes. So that'd be for Equus. Richard Burden. There you go. We all love Ned Beatty. Right. Paul Newman. He didn't have much time to prepare that monologue in Network, which is killer. It's killer. And it's. Yeah. The remainder of James Mason, Jane Fonda and River Phoenix. Only Bergman, Dunaway, Finch and Strait have won Oscars for those LeMay movies.

[00:25:08] So but 17, 17. I mean, I'm not trying to cater to the elites, but that's no one trick pony. That's no I got lucky. Like he didn't do that for Oscars. He did it to make it good. You know, he wants quality. 17. That's a huge odd number. Most of us get maybe one, maybe five. Yeah. For a hardworking guy. But 17. And it could have been more. Yeah. That does it too. He could.

[00:25:37] I could have saved more. I could have done more. That's a good transition. Ethan. So I guess we'll circle around to like, Patrick, what is your go to movie? Do you think of what you've seen that makes you go? That's certainly. It's certainly network. OK, nice. Yeah. I've never seen anything quite like it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to James. What's your number one? Do you think? All right. So when I think about it, I'm all over the place. The movie that got me.

[00:26:05] So it's kind of like a couple of things. Failsafe is the go to. OK. It's the go to. But there's a movie he did. It's the first one he really did. And that was 12 Angry Men. Yeah. I go back and forth, man. Because network is probably the most quotable, most influential. 12 Angry Men is probably the most accessible. I did receive Serpico in recent years. And I really love that one. But man, dude, I am split.

[00:26:32] I think running on empty, I might give my nomination, too. Because that that is not talked about literally at all. Like it is, but it isn't like that. That had Christine Lottie. That had River Phoenix and Martha Plimpton. I'm just like, holy shit. And but yeah, Judd Hirsch is like, we're going to be gone, Jeremy, or whatever line he says. It's like, whoa. Yeah, it's it's not an easy to talk about thing.

[00:27:00] What if my folks were accused of being eco-terrorists? And it's like, and this isn't about whether I believe that or not. It's like, what do I do? What do I go from here now that I'm basically a bastard? I'm an orphan now. You know, if they get killed. He likes to just make you remember why everyone thinks the way they do instead of just having you read off all this blunt dialogue and have an actor just get their close up.

[00:27:27] But but like Ethan is saying, he kinds of he likes to show every detail. What's your go to movie, Ethan? This is an interesting one to say, but I do hit us. I do believe strongly about this one. It's many, many that are outstanding. Prince of the City. Tree Williams. Okay. Good movie. That's a good pick. That's a great one that I really love how he made that. Like there's certain things he does that I was just like, yeah, I find it to be a unique film.

[00:27:56] I mean, he's had he's had so many films that are, you know, flawless and classics, but I'd go with Prince of the City had the most effect on me as a viewer. But I just know from what you've seen of him. What would you say is your kind of the one that stands out for me? I mean, some of them already been mentioned, like 12 angry men and so forth. But it's I'm going to go with Q&A from 1990. Oh, right. Nolte's great, man. Nick Nolte is great. Oh, let's gain all that.

[00:28:25] Yeah, Nick Nolte. Nolte was amazing. Armand Assant. Yeah. Armand should be a bigger star than he is. And unfortunately, he's only known for kind of his HBO movies and Stallone endeavors. And don't get me wrong, he's still a good actor. I mean, he liked him as a jury. You think about it, too. Like you go back. He does an Agatha Christie movie. It's one of the best movies that that whole who killed Paro where it's it's murder on the Orient Express.

[00:28:54] And he wanted to get Peter Ustinov, but he couldn't get it. Such a different movie with Ustinov. They put in Albert Finney. Albert Finney friggin' I mean, look at the cast who's in that. He couldn't be. Do you know who he cast first? Yeah. Who did he cast? John Connery first. Yeah.

[00:29:13] Because he figured he said he said if I cast John Connery, who I think is the biggest star in the world, he said at the time, then the rest of the funding and actors would come easily after that. That's what he said for that. Yeah. He wanted Ustinov. I know that. And he couldn't do it. That's well, too, though. John, who couldn't be on this chat, crazy busy, but he's always texting me off the air. He's like, I just saw this LeMay movie. You know, LeMay does not goof around.

[00:29:42] You know, LeMay is the man. And I always find it fun how people are kind of slowly rediscovering this man's work because they just know this is kind of the where movies just get serious. Every era, this man works and does a movie that you're not going to forget. He pulled two movies out of his ass in the 80s. OK, and I hate I hate to use that term. OK, he pulls two movies out of his ass. Too late. It's out there. He does. He does. Just tell me what you want.

[00:30:12] Alan King and and Al and Ali McGraw. OK, last leading woman performance. Yeah. That's our last one. Yeah. And the morning after the scene I love when they have the fight in Bergdorf Goodman was just fucking hilarious. You know, now he's doing slapstick comedy. You know, he's doing like a slapstick comedy in that. Then he does Death Trap, which was one of the best plays of the 1970s, early 80s.

[00:30:40] He takes that movie, right? Yes. Michael Caine. Christopher Reeve. And don't forget. Diane Cannon. But don't forget The Morning After. I like it. He does The Morning After. But I'm saying he does these two movies, two disparaging movies. But Death Trap always holds a thing for me because my father took me to go see that. Now, I didn't know this. I didn't know the plot of the movie. All I know is that Michael Caine's character. Michael Caine.

[00:31:09] He's a failing playwright. Bloody hell. Bloody hell. I'm not going to do this. And the scene where we find out that him and Christopher Reeve are actually lovers and Christopher Reeve kisses Michael Caine. I was in the movie theater with my father, my brother-in-law, and my sister. And I yell out, Superman's gay? Kiss some Superman. That's right. I read that. Somebody said that. Yeah.

[00:31:37] He got to work with Ali McGraw and freaking Peter Weller and Tony Roberts. Yeah. And Alan Kaine. Yeah, right. That's crazy. But those movies did not do that well. No. You know. But he's kind of one of the first guys who shows you you're not as good as your last movie. Like, you're just good. And when you're not good, we still want to work with you because. You didn't really have huge money makers, though, if you think about it. Besides, like, Murder on the Orient Express, yes. Stuff like that.

[00:32:07] But, like, you look at the box office for terms of his work. I just made good movies. It's like, yeah, it's more about the, yeah, it's like the critical acclaim and austernoms. So. And in my opinion, since. For him to have just worked with some of the actors. I mean, going back to the pawnbroker, I thought that was cool. That that was Morgan Freeman's first, you know, official movie. That wasn't like a PBS. Yeah. It was Rod Steiger. Yeah. Rod. Rod will always remember from his different villain roles. But he's like, yeah, let's not forget.

[00:32:36] And Lamet originally was hesitant about Rod Steiger. Yeah. He didn't like his taste in the films he was taking. He. Lamet did not like that. But he was glad he had Steiger in it as they started filming. Yeah. Well, you got to remember Steiger. What time? What year did that come out? 66? 64. All right. Sorry. He's just about done the loved one. The loved one at that point. Where he's played Mr. Joy Boy.

[00:33:04] And you got to remember, you know, he had just done, you know, on the waterfront. I'm trying to think what else he'd done before that. I think that is before he does some of those other Westerns. Or he did The Specialist. Yeah. I see what you did there. I see what you did there. But, you know, you got to realize Steiger goes off on this little, like this tangent where he does, like, you know, he does In the Heat of the Night, which is one of the best movies he did. And then, like. Jordan Jewison's a good contrast to Lamet. Yeah.

[00:33:33] A guy who takes plays and concept before anything else. Works with any kind of actor. Gets good performances without, you know, getting in their face. Rest in peace. There's another great director, you know, in the same cat. You know, I think it's like, you know, you know, Frankenheimer. Kazan. Kazan. Well, no. Kazan, yeah. But, you know, Kazan kind of, you know, he kind of was like. He could be over the top. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying.

[00:34:00] He was blacklisted by Hollywood because, you know, what he did in the 50s. Oh, I was just talking just talent. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is success. But, yes, that's true. Like Fred Zinneman, he is pushed back by the Hollywood elites because of the. Yeah. But, I mean, you know, you got to think, you know, Jewison did one of the best, you know, two of the best movies of the 70s. And that's, you know, Fiddler on the Roof. And then he does, you know, one, two. I mean, two of the best musicals of all time. Fiddler on the Roof and Jesus Christ Superstar.

[00:34:30] You know, he pulls that out. And again, diversity. Yeah. Lumet does The Wiz, which is an all black version of. Wizard of Oz. And no one had done an all black musical since I'm thinking Cabin in the Sky. That sounds about right. Back then. And it wasn't like, you know, and forgive me if I'm going to do this, but it wasn't like one of these like, oh, yeah, we going.

[00:34:59] It was a great soundtrack. You had Charlie Smalls. God bless him. And Quincy Jones. And Quincy Jones took all the credit. But Charlie Smalls wrote that. Quincy Jones, that's before he becomes a big record producer and TV producer. No, he'd been known because he was working with Sinatra. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, Quincy Jones. Guys, I'm sorry if I'm boring with what I'm talking about. I just know all this shit off the top of my head. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[00:35:28] But it's like, but it's like, Charlie, he took all the credit. Charlie Smalls basically was not even, you know, he was just a footnote on that. But Charlie Smalls wrote that. If you ever see the Monkees, there's an episode where Davy Jones has Charlie Smalls on. He explains to him the concept of soul music, you know, what that is. And Charlie Smalls is a really good writer. And he wrote The Wiz. And Quincy Jones basically just took it and said, okay, it's mine.

[00:35:54] But Lamette takes this thing where it's like, you know, it's been on Broadway. And he brings in people that are like, you know, you got Richard Pryor playing the wizard. You've got Diana Ross. You've got, you know, Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson and, you know, Nipsey Russell. I keep forgetting who played the Cowardly Lion. I'm about to look it up. Cowardly Lion. Nipsey Russell was a tin man.

[00:36:23] Michael Jackson was a scarecrow. I got it. I got it. Diana Ross. Ted Ross. Ted Ross. Ted Ross. Yeah. He was the Cowardly Lion. Who played the evil? Witch. The evil witch. Looking it up. Looking up. Looking up. Mabel King. All right. Mabel King from What's Happening. My dude. All right. Okay. Screenplay by Joel Schumacher. Yeah. Lena Horne was the good witch. And Lena Horne steals that.

[00:36:50] He knew how to film Lena Horne. And if you think about it, Lena Horne, who had done Cabin in the Sky, and she sings Stormy Weather. And she sings that song in The Wiz. And you feel, you start crying because she had this voice that could knock you back on your feet. My parents saw her live one time. And again, he wanted to make this movie. Yeah. He wanted to make this movie.

[00:37:15] And most people would have been suck-ups being like, oh, you know, I just own that movie. He's like, no, I'm not disowning it. I love making that movie. Yeah. I've seen LaMette compared to Sidney Pollack, who I think is a nice catch. He can do comedy, drama, mystery. Yeah. I would compare him, though, given how we've been talking about thanking men's pictures and the new wave kind of style, the French and European kind of look.

[00:37:45] I would kind of compare him to Milos Forman. Yeah. If you think about it. Because it's that same kind of rational, psychological, without having to have just a freak-out scene or anything. Just kind of just show the passage of time. And how I am not going to, you are not going to look at this character the same way by chapters in. And I'm not going to be the same person by the movie, Zen. You know what's a complex one he did? Was it Equus? Yes. Oh, yeah. We were talking about that earlier.

[00:38:15] And again, not an easy play to adapt. It's been done. No. Radcliffe notoriously played it and got some acclaim for it. So it's just like. And again, like, how do I normalize a quirk like that and just. Jesus. Just show the abnormal lifestyle and everything. It's like, it's not easy. And who played the. It's Richard Burton. And Peter. What else did he do? Because I know the name, but it's like.

[00:38:44] I was saying earlier, you would know him from the traitor from Red October. You've seen him on the show. MI5 Spooks. OK. All right. Wait a minute. Hold on. Yes. Peter. I think he was a British guy. Yes. Yeah. But I'm thinking. You've seen him in Life Force. Yeah. That's what I'm going to say. Yeah. Sorry. He was also. And I'm trying to remember this. And I might be crazy, but I keep thinking. Was he in. He's in Tess. He's in Tess. But I keep thinking. What what show is he in?

[00:39:14] The here come the double deckers. I haven't seen that one. That show was like one of those shows. It was like. What a title. Yeah. A children's show. But I'm trying to think. What else was he in? That was like McDonald's. I don't know. He's been on Victoria recently. He's in sort of the Valiant. That has a voice. He also played Vespasian. The Emperor Vespasian. In ancient Rome. I didn't recognize him.

[00:39:44] You know. He's. He got. You know. He's. That's why I like him. He. He is. I was kind of a brave performance. That's why. And it's like. I didn't know what else he did. And I was like. He's good. Right. He's definitely. He's a been Kingsley type. Where is like he. Or been cross guy. If you will. Is like he'll go. Yeah. Wherever I can. And so that's why. You see him in something like. Mighty Joe Young. Amistad. Even. Shadowlands. Is like. Yeah. He's. He's all about.

[00:40:14] Is like. Where am I? What can I do? And. So I'm never surprised. When I see him on a show. Like Victoria. Or. That's life. You know. It's like. He's always about. Being. Abnormal kind of roles. And. Yeah. But. I think that's. Lamets. Biggest gift. Is like. Be bigger than the material. You know. All his. Production history. Sum up his main key thing. And it's like. Be a thinking man's. Drama. Thriller. And it's like. Yeah. I mean.

[00:40:43] You have to be. You have to want to know. And understand people. You have to. I mean. Otherwise. Why make the bloody movie? Right. Another one. Of his. This is one. Where I think the first. Two thirds. Work well. Okay. And then the third act. Completely falls apart. And it's called. Love and Molly. From 1974. With Anthony Perkins. Oh. And Glythe Danner. Why is that. The first two.

[00:41:13] Yeah. The first two acts work. They age throughout the movie. It's three different timelines. And it's not. The makeup isn't convincing. But that's not the only problem. It's like. You get to that third act. It's like. Eh. This doesn't. Yeah. It's too bad. When did it come out? Was it a. 74 I believe. Okay. So. Yeah. He's still getting off. After Child's Play. So. Well. Is Dog Day Afternoon. The same year? No. 75. So between Serpico.

[00:41:43] And Dog Day Afternoon. He made this. I thought that was 73. But. Same difference. Like. Yeah. He's. Yeah. He's done the other. Late 50s. Early 60s movies. You know. 12 Igerman. Fell safe. But he's still kind of. Yeah. Out of the. He's getting comfy. Not doing just the live. Playhouse 90. He can take his time more. So I think. That's probably where he's. None of you saw this one though? I. I have not seen that somehow. I don't. Perkins is great in it. You got Bo Bridges too. Oh. Susan Sarandon. Oh. Yeah. Small part for her. But yeah.

[00:42:13] So we got to work with Bo Sarandon. It's nice. Work with Jeff Bridges and Bo Bridges. Because you got the morning after. Morning after. Yeah. It's like. Morning after. It doesn't work. But it is some good acting. I like it. But. Yeah. It's like. It's. It's atypical. It kind of reminds me of that other play that. Jeff Bridges adapted. Simpatico. And so I think that's it. I think Lamette. Made play adapting kind of more popular. He didn't go with. You know.

[00:42:43] Musicals after the Wiz. Because. The. Mixed reaction. But I'm like. He could have easily kept doing musicals. Like. Yeah. Was that the biggest budget film he ever did? The Wiz? That's what I was thinking. It had to be. With Quincy Jones. And it didn't make its money back. Yeah. It didn't. At the time. So that's why he goes back to doing smaller pictures. But. That's kind of for the better. It's like. Hey. He made something with. All kinds of audiences there. And then he went back to just. You know.

[00:43:13] A typical movies. It is kind of a shame though. You will see a lot of scholars mention him. And they only want to talk about the performances. I'm like. Yes. That's great. But there's more to it than just good acting. You know. Like. The themes. Just to end this on a positive note. Who do you think you would introduce. His movies to. If anyone. Well. Maybe. My wife. I like to show her movies she hasn't seen. Film studies classes. Or. Yeah. I like to show her movies she hasn't seen. And there's quite a few here that I've seen that she hasn't.

[00:43:43] But there's also quite a few I haven't seen. So. Yeah. Long filmography. Jesus. Well. A lot of films. For me. To start at the beginning. You have to start with 12 Angry Men. Okay. And then you jump to Failsafe. And then you go to. In my opinion. You go to Serpico. And then Dog Day Afternoon. And that. Those are like the big four for me. You know. Okay. Nice. You know. If it's an urban crowd. We might do The Wiz.

[00:44:13] You know. There's one movie we forgot. Let's talk about Bye Bye Braverman. Okay. I think. George Segal. Yeah. George Segal. George Segal. Yep. He's got a mustache or something. I think I have. He's got a terrible freaking mustache. Bye Bye Braverman. Yeah. I think I have seen that. Yeah. Late 60s. I believe. 68. Shit. I haven't seen some of the. I haven't. Real early stuff. I did see that. I think they were doing a lament marathon in TCM.

[00:44:43] I kind of recall it being okay. Just. Good Segal performance. And again. That's where he's working again. With Joseph Wiseman. And Jack Warden. I mean. If anything. His movies are totally. Worth seeing. Because then you will appreciate Jack Warden even more. And. I might have seen that kind of woman. And. With Jack Warden. It's like. He has all these serious performances. And I think a problem child. Yeah. I enjoy problems. But it's like. You know. When it comes to Jack Warden.

[00:45:13] All you can think of is him being in like. Him doing like. Jigsaw John. You know. All these. You know. These really good TV shows. That you know. They're on for like maybe one or two seasons. And then all I remember is. Him being. Buttermaker. On. The Bad News Bears TV show. Oh. But then. Him playing the coach. That didn't last long right? Yeah. That was like one season. Yeah. But him playing. Him playing the. Him playing the coach. In freaking. Heaven can wait. With Warren Beatty. And. You know. Him saying. You know.

[00:45:43] Him basically just playing the. And you know. He knows. He knows it's Warren Beatty in there. He knows it's Warren Beatty. But that's what got me about Jack Warden. I've seen him in movies. You know. In Justice for All. What was the one? He might have worked with Warren Beatty. I remember him. Oh. He was in a lot of stuff with Warren Beatty. Shampoo. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. What were you going to say? Jack. Go. I was just saying. I remember him from like. Used cars and problem child. Oh God. Used cars. He's fucking hilarious. Robert Zemeckis. Let's not forget one of his final roles. Things to do in Denver when you're dead. Oh God.

[00:46:13] It's way better than you remember. Trust me. Andy Garcia. I re-saw it recently. It's like. You know. Yeah. I liked it. It has a good like ticking time bomb. In terms of a script. It's kind of like very bad things. It's like. You got to get out of here. I love. I love very bad things. I love that movie. Oh. It's just like. If you're a comedy. If you like dark comedy. Jesus. That's what I miss about the 90s. It's like. Get any kind of budget. Any kind of actor. Yeah. But have there be stakes. Even if it's a comedy. We'll laugh.

[00:46:43] Especially on Easley. But you got to. You got to. Organize all the chaos. Yeah. And before you get to the chaos. Yeah. You got to have. Us interested in what the character is going to do. And you got to have the perfect. Oh shit face. Like. Oh. Red Rock West. I remember that coming out. There you go. Arcade right. That's a good one. Have the neo-noir style down. There's so many movies where it's like. Okay. You got the style. But there's no substance. Besides the saxophone playing. And the sexy people. You know.

[00:47:13] You got to have the chick in the tight short dress. With the really red lipstick. And the blonde hair all frizzing out. And then you got to have the guy who's like. Really cool. And you got to have like the nerdy guy. Who doesn't know what the hell is going on. You got to have the idiot. Who's kind of funny. And probably the first to die or something. Yeah. It's so hard with the noir. I mean. That's what. That's what I miss. You know. I was talking about like. How great 90s movies were. But yeah. I mean. To close it out. Like. Everybody should just like. Watch all of his movies. Because like you're.

[00:47:43] Even if you're left. In despair. You're going to be like. Yeah. But that wasn't. Like anything I've really seen. And if it is. It's still executed differently. It's. Because so many other people. Kind of. It's easy to. In all fairness. To just kind of fizzle out. After a while. Or. Burn bridges. After all that fame and fortune. And he's just. He definitely seems to love. What he wants to do. In any interview. I've seen him in. He doesn't come off to me. As you're too cynical.

[00:48:12] Or you're too. Just angry. It's kind of like. I did watch a documentary on him. It was. It was like. It was like an hour and a half. I don't know. What was the documentary? I think it was just like. A PBS documentary. Or something. I'm having trouble finding it. I think that's what it was though. Like. Or American. Oh God. It's like a series of documentaries. A documentary. Yeah. Yeah. And it's. And it's an hour and a half. On. On Sidney Lumet. And it was. It was really good. Oh man. Yeah. I will hunt it down.

[00:48:42] There are so many of his films. I haven't seen. Well. You know. If you're used to things like Serpico. Or. Maybe even Guilty as Charged. Or. You know. I mentioned Q&A. Those types of films. Garbo. Talks. Is. Not exactly in the same vein. Oh yeah. No. No. No. But it just kind of shows. It's like. He may not always be relevant. But he is always. American Masters. It's American Masters. Okay. There you go. It's PBS. Watch that.

[00:49:12] Next time it's on. I'll video do it. But. This is just kind of a. Kind of coming to Jesus moment. It's like. Just worry about. Being good. And like. People will always be loyal to you. You know. It's. But. Yeah. Hey. I'm glad we got to have. Two delightful. Film buffs on here with us. Now it's the time to. Do some plugging. So. Ethan. What are you working on. Nowadays. You're always doing some themed. You know. Viewing parties. And sharing your findings. And doing.

[00:49:41] Going down the rabbit hole. I'm trying to find work prints. And I am trying to write a script. Oh really? Trying to write a script. Yeah. Sweet. But it's. It's definitely a slow. Slow process. But I'm doing that. It's never easy man. Yeah. Yeah. That's. I find myself having to do it in stages. Just. I know the outline. Yeah. I got to actually put the dialogue down. Yeah. Patrick. You have a good theme on. Why wasn't it better? Is like. I never know if it's going to.

[00:50:12] Be like a typical. But you do a good job of lining it up with holidays. As well as just like kind of current happenings. Thank you. And again. You and Anton. Dynamite. You'll start each other off by like kind of. Faking. Like. Hey. I just saw this. I like it. No. No. No. You. You do not. You most certainly do not. You'd mentioned. You studied Sean Connery stuff. Is that what. Yes. He's. He's done a share of Connery movies. And. Wrong is right. Oh.

[00:50:41] Did you see that? I've seen it. That's definitely. I haven't seen it. But I saw the poster once. And that's a funny looking poster. That's kind of a dark comedy version of that work. Yeah. Yeah. It's not great. That's what I recall it being. Well. I mean. Nothing. Nothing too special. I mean. We just. We're. Always working on the pie. We've got a Stephen King mini season upcoming. Oh. Sweet. That's a perfect example of. Having to remind fanboys. You can think for yourself. You don't have to be.

[00:51:11] Agree with everything. Or. Whatever the. Author who hates every adaptation likes. That is the final straw. It's like no. You. Think for yourself. Hey. Patrick. Delight having you. Ethan. Always delight. Gil. Yeah. Thank you for having me. That's some trivia to the table. Thanks for having me on.

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