Interview with Actor, Videogame Writer & Filmmaker Morley Nelson

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[00:01:01] We have one of many independent talents here on the show tonight, ladies and gents. He's just helmed and starred in his first feature film for Cineverse and Bloody Disgusting Network. We have uncontained star Morley Nelson. Hi, Ben. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:19] Oh man, and this is kind of a theme with the show and this is no exception. I love individuals who just wear so many different hats because outside of entertainment, it is the most realistic thing. You see people who go from being a bank clerk to being a preschool teacher to a bus driver and it's just always fun just seeing how one career compliments the other in.

[00:01:45] Sometimes you level up, sometimes you level down, but now you're prepping for what you do want to level up to. Exactly, exactly. Well, it's and I think it's fantastic to have a life experience no matter what you're doing, right? No matter where you are. Yes, it's everything. It's one thing to be thankful to work, but then does he be like, hey, without this, wouldn't have gotten that skill set, wouldn't have looked at the world in a different perspective, wouldn't have had better people skills without this time-saving maneuver.

[00:02:14] Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think sometimes you have to do, you have to find out what you hate. Yes. Like I know where you find out what you like and I will avoid this. Yes. And I don't, did you, when you were in your 20s, like early 20s, did you have an idea of exactly who you wanted to be? Like, did you have, were you like, I, this is my goal and I want to be this.

[00:02:37] I definitely knew I wanted to do some different entertainment gigs. Unfortunately, then I had to kind of realize, hey, do other stuff, you know, be grateful for a job. Don't, don't slack, don't flake, just like any other skills you might have learned from relatives and parents.

[00:02:57] Yeah. And at the same time, expenses are a tough division of trying to save versus spend just other stuff, you know, other than food. You know, it's so funny how you can be in the worst possible area of your life. And most often 50% of your spending goes to entertainment because people got to live. Yeah. You've got to go to a theme park with friends, you know?

[00:03:26] Yeah. You got to enjoy life. But yeah, I think, I think at that age, you know, I was living, like you said, you got to eat, but I was living off of like, you know, canned tuna and puffed wheat. And I think that was the thing, like entertainment was always something that allowed you to escape whatever situation you were in.

[00:03:47] But at the same time, you know, sitting in like a, let's see, I was living with, like in my early 20s before I got my first job, I was living with three other people in like a four bedroom apartment. And instead of regular just crappy carpet, we had AstroTurf. And that was our, that's what the apartment came with. And we had so many cigarette burns from previous tenants.

[00:04:16] I mean, it looked like a, like golf course for action figures. Like it was, but you know, it was, it was a nice learning experience. And I think at that time, all I could think of was like, I cannot wait till I'm in my 30s or 40s. And I have some, you know, I've got, I've made it to some point somewhere. Because I just remember thinking like, everyone looks at you in your early 20s, like you're a stupid kid. Yeah. And you don't have any life experience. You don't know anything.

[00:04:46] I know better. Yes. And it, and it's funny because, you know, you can have a lot of, everyone's different. You can have a lot of life experience in your early 20s. It just depends on who you are and what journey you've taken. And, you know, I think it's a big downfall for a lot of people to be dismissive of anybody off the bat. I think that's something. It is. It's like a teacher and a student, but both have to be well-oiled machines. Yes.

[00:05:14] It's like the teacher's got to not be a nag, but really be helpful when you're disciplining. You're not doing it to be a hard ass. You're doing it to, I know you can do this. You've shown it, blah, blah, blah. Here's your potential. Don't waste it. And student, same deal. They got to know, hey, I personally treated school like a prison. It's like, yeah, I like learning. I don't like the whole back and forth, people playing pranks, throwing pencils.

[00:05:42] I was the quiet kid who did all the extra credit and got told, you suck. I'm like, for doing my job? Okay. But I want to go home. And my parents were good. They said absolutely no video games on the weekends. That's your reward for, well, like on the weekends. Don't do it on the weekdays. I'm like, perfect. That's good. Because if I'm so concerned about beating that level, but I don't put the same effort into passing this test,

[00:06:08] actually knowing the stuff towards second nature, it is wild how I can only imagine what it is with screens. Now it is like you still have to be able to recite it, say it. It's just like learning your lines in the movie. But if you do not write it down, like you can write it on your phone, but if you don't actually write it, the brain doesn't, you know, it's just like a magnet. It's got no spark. It's got no. No. You've got to do the physical. You absolutely have to do the physical, I think, for your brain. We have a strict rule in our house.

[00:06:40] And, you know, 20 years from now, I don't know how much the kids are going to be like, why did dad go on all these podcasts and talk about our childhood? What's going on? You know. I feel exposed. Exactly. I try and be as general as possible. But we have a, my wife and I have a rule. They won't be on social media until they're 18. And then they, they don't have, they won't have phones until they're also 18. That'll be their graduation gifts.

[00:07:05] When they're, when they're old enough to drive, they'll get one of the old school flip phones that can, you know, you can call out and that's it. But we don't, we don't allow social media in our house and we don't allow. That's cool. Yeah. We don't allow YouTube. We don't allow game, like mobile games. We do allow, like, like us growing up, we do allow console games on the weekends and, you know, in the summertime.

[00:07:31] And, you know, if they get a certain threshold for grades, then they can have video game time or TV movie time. But that's kind of our, our general household rules. So it's. And you just have to see your kids. Uh, yep. Just Brooke and Jack. Uh, and then of course, let's scout our 11th on dog. You can't see her, but she's here right there next to me. Um, but yeah, they, they do pretty well.

[00:07:57] I know they, they, uh, we expect them to keep busy with physical stuff, whether they're outside, you know, in the summertime, they're, they're at camp or with friends or doing, you know, like physical stuff, discovering the world. We, we believe in being bored so they can develop their imagination. So that's important to us, but. That's cool. It's kind of like the seventies, whereas like you have just the radio and your imagination. It's kind of like. If you tell people, Hey, turn the TV or movies off.

[00:08:27] At least if you want to do some reading, then read some tie-ins that are related to movies and shows. So you're still living it, but at least you're also using your brain to form a vision. It's there's so many different. Absolutely. Like you did, you know, like talking about halo, you know, the, uh, you know, there's so many halo books that I don't think people realize, you know, they've created this. We joked about that. How it's got a bigger universe. And I think everyone, it's kind of like people who watch Paul Verhoeven movies.

[00:08:55] Paul's making fun of American culture, but if you're not familiar with his Dutch stuff, you're reacting to his con shocking content. And it's like, but he's using that to make fun of it and no amount of movie sensors or anyone could just understand it. And it's like, well, it's not for kids. It's going to be edited and modified for TV, but still be shown late at night. So like, just like you say, implementation. My father had a good saying, which was you passed the test, but did you learn anything today?

[00:09:25] And so I was like, you know, I think that one was just for the credit, you know? And this one, this was for actually, I'm going to need to know how to count change. So yeah, that, that, that was for learning. Yep. Life. This is good for life. Yeah. That's, I'm fascinated with, you know, talking about learning. What did you learn? Games, uh, physical stuff. My son's a Gen Z and Dungeons and Dragons is huge. It's still huge. Surprisingly. Surprisingly.

[00:09:55] Like it is amazing how many, and it's his D and D group. Got so big. They're like, ah, I think our group is too big. Cause I think they have like 10 or 12 people, but all the kids in their group, they're, they're not like one demographic. There's no, like, they have like a goth person. I don't know what they're called now, but what I would call a goth. Yeah. I don't think it's emo anymore. I think it's. No. It's different. Something like retro goth or something or what, you know, punk goth or whatever. Reawakened. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:25] Whatever. Hey, whatever positive spin. Uh, and then they have like, uh, they have a jock. They have like a couple of jocks. They have, um, it's like, there's no, there's no clicks whatsoever. Like everybody, everyone is playing D and D and it's fantastic to see. So it's, it's great. They really love it. But here in Irving, Texas, there used to be a really neat, uh, role-playing game center

[00:10:52] where people could go, you could rent in return as well as play in person, just any games, just kind of reserve space. And I liked it because sometimes people would bring customs of preexisting games. Like they would have a different kind of scrap scrabble. They would have. Yeah. Uh, they had a realistic version of monopoly, which I was thought that's fun. Yeah. Right. Way more twisted and over the top. It was like frame someone for to go to jail. I'm like, geez, just got, yeah, that got dark. Yeah. Fast.

[00:11:22] Uh, you, you've been featured in Hollywire, Macabre Daily, Blade Disgusting, Ghouls Gone Wild podcast and Poison Rock TV. Uh, man, playa. Uh, how did you, how did you make those connections? Uh, it's interesting. I think, uh, so, you know, I started off in the film industry, uh, 15 years ago. I was fortunate enough.

[00:11:47] I was a theater major in college and my, upon graduation, my advisor was like, you know, no one's going to pay a hundred dollars or $200 to watch someone that looks like you play Shakespeare. And so. Want to bet? Yeah. But, but at that time, like we were talking before about the being 20, I remember sitting, I remember that sitting in his office and I remember just getting like super hot and thinking like, oh, like, oh shit, I just made the worst decision in my life.

[00:12:15] Like, all this money went towards, uh, something that I can't make money off of. And, you know, I was, I didn't want to be a starving artist that is being told, not only will you be a starving artist, but you were, you will be a starving artist for nothing. Yeah. Like you'll never get to be. And so, um, you know, I was confused cause I said, you know, am I, am I not a good actor? And he said, actor has said your acting abilities have nothing to do with anything. It's your look.

[00:12:45] And I just remember thinking like, oh, and I thought, what's wrong with my look? And he's like, well, he's like, look, if you want to perform Shakespeare, like you do, people want traditional looking actors to play Shakespeare. And at that time I understood what he meant full well. He meant, you know, white. He wasn't being a hard ass, but he was also saying some blunt stuff where you're like, I don't know how to take that. Cause yeah. I'm like, whoa. I can't change who I am. No.

[00:13:13] And the, and he's essentially telling me as an, as an acting professor, like your acting doesn't matter. Right. No matter how good or bad you are, it's really, people are going to buy your look. And so he gave you a moment of your time. Cause I noticed something similar when I took a screenwriting class. This is like, here are the rules that they generally recommend for a better screenplay. Give some buildup instead of just having a random plot twist. Have, uh, you know, some character lose something instead of being Mr. Invincible.

[00:13:42] If they don't have to lose anything, have other people lose stuff and they're the lucky one. But yeah, 90% of the screenplays, including movies we do like don't follow any of the rules. So it's just like, so what is it for? Or it's just like, it's a recommendation for better acceptance of stuff. Um, but you got to be a technical advisor on a few different things. I'm not shot ones, produce devil, red. Yeah. That's, and that, and that's a fortunate thing. Like I, so out of college.

[00:14:12] So when I, when I took his advice, um, it was really, I was very disheartened and I thought, okay, well, this is, I wasted four years of my life. Um, so then I became a cop. And so I was a cop for a while and that's where I got, I was fortunate enough to, um, be a technical advisor. Right. So then I did, like you just mentioned, I did the, I did devil and, uh, that was a phenomenal experience.

[00:14:37] It was a, I think it was like a $40 million budget, uh, production shot, shot in Toronto. And it was like, uh, like just threw me right into the fire. Like, here's how midget motion pictures work from a studio. And it was just like, wow, this is, it was amazing. Learning. Go just, yeah. And it was just like, I talked to everybody. Everything was fascinating to me in that moment. Cause it was just like, you're talking to people that have worked their entire careers to be at the level that they're at.

[00:15:06] They all have these huge, you know, uh, lifelong stories that made them successful. And it was just fantastic to listen to the, I connected really well with the prop master that they had. I connected well with the hair and makeup, head of hair and makeup. Uh, I connected really well with the, with the FX team. Um, and then in the, it was, I was fortunate enough. I didn't want to bother them too much, but they had an Academy award winning DP. Yeah.

[00:15:34] And so it was like, uh, I don't, you know, don't get in the way. And I was told, don't talk to them, but I did get to spend some time, you know, there's down, everybody has downtime on a production, no matter how big or small. And so I did get a, uh, time to talk to talk Fujimoto and it was phenomenal with his time. And he was, you know, there were no one ever treated me like, Oh, you idiot. How can you not know this stuff? They're all very, I think you get to that level and you've been on the receiving end of getting

[00:16:03] yelled at and you've been on the receiving end of bad manners and. People love to rule by fear. I'm seeing a trend here, but it's so common. And like you say, it's tough to decipher the facts from the reality is like, well, where'd you hear that? I don't know. But everyone said, it's a need to know. I'm like, right. Well, can I ask whoever told you that it's okay. I'm not here to, as for an autograph, I'm not here to waste your time. I'm here to learn.

[00:16:32] And they were very gracious with their time. Like they were, I think they've been on plenty of productions where they were, where it was, you know, not a fun time or it was, was commanded by someone, like you said, you know, ruling by fear. And no one wants to work under those conditions in any industry, but they were phenomenal. And then I was just fortunate enough. We were shooting at Pinewood studios in Toronto and the, there's a production ish also at the

[00:16:59] studio and they've, I don't know what happened to their technical advisor, but they were in need of one to replace them. And I was just, I was really fortunate at the, the, I don't know who it was at, from M. Night Shyamalan's production team, but they're like, you should use our guy. And so I was just lucky where they're like, okay. And then they just offered me a job on the spot. And so I went right from that production into, into that other product.

[00:17:28] And I think that was a hundred million dollar budget, if I'm not mistaken. And so it was just more of everyone just loving the job, loving to be there. But again, I think they love being there because they've gone through so much crap and so much hardship to get to that level. Right. And so again, they're very great. You know, they're just really nice. Very generous with their time, explained a lot of stuff to me. And I just thought it was fantastic.

[00:17:56] But I also, they were like, okay, you know, you go talk to this A-list celebrity and he has some questions for you about stuff. And then you're just like, okay. And then you just kind of like immediately, I think the biggest lesson I learned right away was that everyone is just people. Right. Like everyone that you think you, you have this idea of who someone is because you grew up watching them on big screens. Right.

[00:18:24] And you think, oh my gosh, here's this, you know, I don't know if they're icons. I don't know if they're celebrities, whatever they are. You have these emotional memories of connecting with them on some level to the characters, but not necessarily to them. And it was, it was interesting to find out who the person was behind those characters. Right. And that person is just a person. Right. So it's, you know, but they also, again, going back to that level, there's like, they're really smart.

[00:18:54] You can't be an A-list actor and be stupid. Like that just is not a thing. You can't accidentally succeed if you're an A-list actor for decades. Right. That just doesn't happen. And, you know, especially today, but it, uh, so that was fascinating. It was, it was fun to talk to, um, you know, these people and get a perspective from their, get their perspective. And then I was fortunate enough, I, there was an, uh, A-list writer and I was just, you

[00:19:23] know, if you, if you don't know, you don't know. And I asked like, Hey, would you teach me how to write? And you know, this guy's probably like, Oh, are you kidding me? You know, like that's the worst thing when it's about as bad as asking an A-list writer, like, Hey, will you read my screenplay? No, they're not going to read your screen. They're an A-list writer. You know, they could, they could make a hundred thousand plus dollars reading your screenplay. They're not going to read your screenplay for fun. Right. Like they're just not going to do that.

[00:19:47] But once again, at that, at that, I don't know what it was in that group or that, that just at that time, um, I was fortunate enough, this, this writer was like, yeah, I'll, I'll teach you how to write. No, you know, and I don't, I think we exchanged, you know? Yeah. And I think too, he was, he had questions about, um, you know, I think policing and, and homicide and things like that.

[00:20:16] And so I think it was kind of a decent trade-off. Like he didn't, I could offer him insight that he wouldn't be able to Google. And so it was a, I think it was a pretty fair exchange. And then he, but he taught me how to write and that allowed me to get jobs and, um, do writing assignments. And that led into, you know, getting to do writing the video, the walking dead, working

[00:20:41] for AMC, um, working for Sony and doing, you know, working on Men in Black 3, uh, and a lot of writing projects. But, um, you know, and then still trying to just being a true gig economy, taking any job I could get, like whether it's technical director, technical advisor, writer, whatever. Um, and unfortunately at, I was, I was working on a project and someone said, you know, instead

[00:21:09] of having you come in and telling us how the detective should look, or these, these cops should look and how they should act and why they act that way and why they feel that way. You know, have you ever thought about acting? And then I was just like, yes, I have not only have I thought about it, you know, I've got an undergrad in drama. So, um, and then, and then that allowed me to be in some, uh, indie films.

[00:21:36] So it kind of, I did the, so all that to say, I started off backwards. Like I started off in these gigantic productions and then I was worked my way down into indie film. So it was, you know, usually you work indies and you kill yourself to get on the way up. Um, I went backwards, but I was, I was fortunate enough to be cast in a couple of indie films and a couple of indie series and then COVID hit right when I was starting to get like, I was like, Oh yes, I have. Okay.

[00:22:05] So I know I didn't, haven't made it, but I am so close. I just got to act in a scene with three A-list actors. We were, you know, we're, we're, then people are going to see this and I'm going to get the next film. The next film will be, you know, an equal role if not, if not more. And COVID hit and it was like, ah, crap. So, you know, that was kind of where we were stuck. And then I was, I was, uh, people were hitting me up and asking me like, if I, if we pay you

[00:22:35] X amount of dollars, will you write a horror movie that could take place in one location? Because everyone was so desperate to, to make some kind of movie during COVID because there was just like, all of a sudden everyone's like, Oh my gosh, we don't have any content. Like, how are we going to survive? Yeah. It's been six months, seven months, eight months. No, no one can work. Right. So, um, someone offered, finally someone was like, well, you know, I want to do, um,

[00:23:03] three people, a crew of five. Can you write a horror script for that? And that got me to thinking like, well, why, why would I write a horror script for them when I could do it myself? Right. Go raise some money, write my own horror scripts. Instead of have someone rework your vision. Exactly. And then just take the dive and direct. Cause I had been, I had done, I think two different projects. I had done some technical directing. I was fortunate enough that there was a phenomenal director.

[00:23:32] His name is James Strong. He's a BAFTA winning director from England. And, uh, we had met, like, we had probably talked for maybe 20 minutes. And then, and he said, you know what? You direct this sequence. And I was just like, uh, me, me. Yeah. Like, what? You know, he's like, no, you got it. You got it. And I think because I had, you know, I had plotted out, I had the script ahead of time.

[00:24:02] And on the, on the flight over, I gave, I like to come up when I was technical advising and directing, I like to come up with like five scenarios so that when I get there, I give the producers and the director, like, here's five different scenarios that I could see this, you know, here's some for your similitude. Here's one that's not realistic. Here's one that is, and here's everything in between. Um, you know, and you can, and here's a general idea of a shot list and why you would be doing this and blah, blah, blah.

[00:24:29] So I get back to the backstory of an actor's character, Lolo, any kind of logic is like, how are we going to get through to here? Why am I walking there talking this way? Blah, blah, blah. All that. Yeah. And then they're going to want to know that, that, right? Like they're going to know everything and then make their decision, like which one's going to fit. And if you only get angle, if this seems important, right? Exactly. Like it. And is that appropriate? Is it the right tone? Is it, you know, what are we doing? Yeah.

[00:24:57] Um, so you just have to, based on their script, uh, you know, I feel like the, there's an old saying, I don't remember who said it, but like, it's the quickest way to failure is having one really good idea. Right. So I was like presenting like at least three good ideas, if not five. And so, you know, that that's, that's great. And I'm sure like anyone you've been in situations where everyone's trading off script ideas and it's like, what do you think? It's like, well, in all honesty, I think you have something to work with, but it's tough

[00:25:27] to tell until I see it visualize. There are those ideas where it's like, I'm not going to give you something vague in return. I'm not going to say interesting because that can mean either way. Anything. Yeah. That can mean I'm being nice, but I don't really get it. I was like, yeah, I think you have something, but I'd have to see it before I can give any constructive critique. Well, and I think that a key to good, I don't know if it's through experience or through having

[00:25:53] a great teacher, but I think the key to screenwriting in particular is being extremely specific and efficient at the same time. So an efficiency of words. So you say the most, get as specific and visual as you can with the least amount of words. Yes. And that's script writing, right? Oh my God. Like that's, so, you know, having that in your cap, I think always knowing that and working with that.

[00:26:20] But yeah, he was, I presented those ideas very, very specifically and efficiently. And then in the Texas, we were in, we were shooting, um, in Dealey Plaza in Texas. And he was just like, you know, it's, I think it was in August. I don't remember now, but it was like a hundred, felt like 110 outside and it was humid and oppressive and, you know, 20 minutes with him. And it felt like, you know, an hour or so. And then he was like, you know what? You just, you got this, you directed.

[00:26:48] And I was like, I thought he was joking, but he was like, no, no, whatever you need. Just ask me, but go ahead. But, and I was just like, okay, that's really neat. Yeah. It's just a natural, just what's the worst that can happen other than trust, you know? Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I knew I could fall back on him, but I think he sensed something. He was, he's a great enough director. Like James Strong, if you look up, if you watch anything he does, he is a phenomenal visual storyteller.

[00:27:18] I mean, he is one of my favorite directors because he can do anything big or small. I think he, people know him for Broadchurch, the series. I was about to say, he's done a lot of American and British TV. So now doing Memory of a Killer. Yes. I mean, he did like Vanity Fair. If you check that series out, the visuals alone in that are amazing.

[00:27:46] But then he also did a series and I can't remember the name, but it's about two homicide detectives get stuck on a submarine, nuclear submarine. Oh, wow. Because there's a murder on a nuclear submarine. These two homicide detectives are investigating and then the submarine gets activated and they have to go out and the homicide detectives are stuck in the submarine trying to catch the killer while they're intercepting a hostile attack.

[00:28:15] And I don't want to say much more, but it was a phenomenal series. But again, he can do a lot with a little, you know, very tight space, very close set. And then he can do a lot with a lot where Vanity Fair is this like, I mean, based on the novel, there's a series that just, I can't, the practical shots that he pulled off visually are just stunning, but he, uh, he's also like the super grounded, really fantastic, uh, as he would

[00:28:43] say, lovely, lovely person. And, um, you know, again, I think he's one of two BAFTAs now, but he's just so pretty good. Easy to talk to. Yeah. But he, you know, the thing that, that I would aspire to be as far as a director goes, is looking at James, he is really good at motivating everybody. Like that is an excellent director, right?

[00:29:06] He, whether it's his crew, executive producers, actors, everyone he talks to, he's just so motivating and inspirational. You just want to talk to the guy, but he also says everything so calmly and diligently. And just, he's, he's such a master at what he does. And you can tell, I mean, you can smell it. You gotta be so cynical after someone's told you something inspiring to get your spirits up. Yeah. Right. Back down to negative. Yeah.

[00:29:36] Minus. But as a brief backtrack, I was actually familiar with your work a little bit. I, I, I had vaguely heard of cat loves LA cause that was a YouTube web series. Yep. And I, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but it seemed like it was just kind of aside from having a very unique, uh, East LA, uh, Chinese American cast.

[00:30:02] It was also very cool how it just showing the day-to-day life of jobless love seeking and then mixing in just other day-to-day lifestyles. But how cool that you got to work with, like you say, just a bunch of actors and actresses. It's by Paget, uh, KG's. She's both, you know, creating it and starring in it. And like any actors, you know, everyone's just doing this on the side in between their guest stars, recurring gigs. That's yeah. Yeah. That was, that was a great experience.

[00:30:31] She, I have not, I had nothing to do with that series, except I was fortunate enough. She cast me in it. Yeah. And yeah, being, being the love interest that was, you know, I got to, I get to take my shirt off for, you know, a couple of scenes and you know, that's, that was fantastic. No. Um, but yeah, no, it was, uh, that was, so she, Paget is a phenomenal person. Her dad actually started the first, I think Asian American or Korean American, uh, magazine

[00:31:02] in the United States. So she comes from like, like, you know, uh, industrial royalty. Right. So she's very aware of issues and, um, you know, being, uh, Asian American. Cause you gotta educate all these dumb white people. Let's just say it. Cause I see so many times, I kid you not, dude. I know I have many inner city pals, so I know all kinds of slang and every once in a while,

[00:31:31] I'll, I'll have to correct someone. I'm like, don't say it that way. You will get your face punched in. That is not mean what you think it means. I know you mean no ill will. Please let this be the last time we have that conversation. Like they'll do certain slang. That means like a lingo for like, uh, taking drugs or just like, yeah, it could be misinterpreted as a slur in other, uh, language. And I'm like, guys, guys, I don't say it that way. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

[00:32:02] Yeah. Well, she's, so she's, uh, she's super impressive because she knows, she knows like all walks of, you know, entertainment because she's been an actor for so long. And then she has a, um, you know, she's been, I think she's been a guest star in a ton of huge series. Like, I think she was on a shameless, uh, you know, every other show time or CBS show. So she's got some paramount connection. Yeah. She's got some chops.

[00:32:31] She was, and she's, she wrote everything like her. She wrote the entire series and she was, uh, really great at bringing people together and accepting. And, you know, I, she had a, I believe the cast was like, you had, um, everyone from, she's Korean American, Kenny's Taiwanese American. Um, I'm Pacific Islander and indigenous. And then, um, I'm trying to think.

[00:33:00] And then, you know, she had Greek and French and, you know, so it wasn't so wild too. It was mostly Korean, but there were some Chinese and other East LA actors in it. So it was like, yeah. And then, of course, yes. And then Mario, of course was, and he's fantastic, uh, Latinx actor. Just phenomenal, crazy, funny guy.

[00:33:23] But she had, that's another, you know, there's an executive producer where she had, um, raised money to be able to pay the crew, which is fantastic. And then, uh, no, no, yeah. Actual salaries. Um, in fact, if I'm not, no, again, it wasn't my production. Um, but if I'm not mistaken, she paid actually, like she played union rates. If I remember correctly. So seven, 11 productions. Yep. Yep.

[00:33:50] So it was like, she was, you know, everyone was happy. Great. Great. To be there. It was a blast. Um, and a real great insight to kind of the indie hustle. Yes. And so that was, and then shocked at how, like, I just went into act and enjoy the experience and then support in whatever way I could. And I was just, you know, I was absolutely nobody at the time.

[00:34:14] And, um, it was amazing to see the support and the, and the actual like K drama is huge. Like I had no idea how big K drama was until I did that show. And it's just like insane, especially from like South America. They love K drama. So I, and I had no clue who was prepared for it. Like, I just, I was like, wow, this is so fortunate. Unfortunate. Yeah.

[00:34:43] Like it's, and I think, I think that's the thing. Like you do a series like that because there, uh, nothing can beat that passion other than, um, you know, potentially getting on an actual series, you know, like a network series or something else where there's a ton of passion, but then you have to worry about the, kind of the corporate executive oversight. Right. Sadly, there's always going to be that meddling where it's like, what I think they want is like, no, no, you got to look at.

[00:35:12] What they actually want. Um, yeah, I, I had a friend of the show, uh, Brent Pope, who's a Filipino actor. He used to be in the Navy and he was able to briefly for a short period of time, take this web series that featured an all Asian American cast and go from YouTube to Amazon. And while they were not renewed after that second season, he was still, I was like, Hey, that's fun.

[00:35:37] Something else to do in between guesting on everyone's podcasts and doing walk on credited roles for sitcoms like Silicon Valley and Roseanne. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and you've done a ton of, like you've done the Star Trek and the, right? Like, well, yeah, but still it's like that, that takes a lot of passion. Like it talk about pure passion, right?

[00:35:59] Like fan film is something that, you know, you can't monetize, but at the same time you don't care because you know, it's something you like, something is telling you, you have to do it. Nothing. I don't know. You know, it's good. What do you call it? I call it. Flushing out our skills is like, you're going to do what you want to do when it really is something you want to do. And then you realize, okay, but I'm letting my guard down here. I'm getting a little too self-indulgent here, but that's still a good exercise.

[00:36:29] I clearly have more passion here. Now, what can I do with an original concept? And so I do help out my pals, Nate and Ruby on any Latinx PSAs they work on, any other sizzle reels. And so as a result, it does allow you to look more objectively at bigger versus smaller productions is like, but I'm still going to give the same effort each and every time on time. Here's when we got to clock out and say, that's a wrap.

[00:36:58] And that's actually what I took away from your movie, A Violent Separation. That is constantly airing on Showtime. I saw that back in 2022. And I was really enjoying it. It was just kind of a little, at first I thought, oh, this is going to be kind of a Southern, you know, Hatfields and McCoy. And then it's like, okay, there's a bit of a noir-ish looking stuff. There's some fugitives on the run. It's a big cast, you know, TV darlings, Ted Levine, Cheryl McRaney. Yeah.

[00:37:28] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Semi-big movie stars. I mean, come on. Yeah. Alicia Woods' daughter, Francesca. Yeah. Yeah. She's cool. Yeah. The Alicia Devin Carey, Brenton Thwaites, Ben Robson. Claire Holt. Claire Holt. Yeah. They're phenomenal actors. And that was my first big introduction at like working with all names. Like you're working with, like, that was the only non-name in that whole group. Um, and it was such a, and again, not, not my production.

[00:37:58] I had nothing to do with it. Louisiana production. Yeah. Yeah. Other than just act, I got cast in it. And, uh, you know, it was respect. I hope, you know? Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Like it was, you know, getting to play a bad guy. There's a lot of, um, you know, and, and, you know, things happen. And that was my first taste of, to that point I had been in like, I just wrapped off Cat Loves LA where pretty much every single moment on camera made it into the series.

[00:38:26] And then violent separation was such a blast and such a learning experience. And then all of a sudden I learned that 90% of my scenes were cut. Yeah. So that was like, that was a tough lesson. But then this goes back to looks is like, they're still going to see I'm on a bigger movie. Exactly. Exactly. So then it's just like, okay, but are you judging me? Cause you actually like what I do? Or are you just saying, Hey, what's the worst I can do? I got someone who knows what they're doing. Yeah. Right. And it's, yeah. And like you said, looks, you know, I pulled off the good bad guy look at that and then,

[00:38:56] you know, having the loudest shirt in the, I think I had by far the best shirt in the entire movie. It's an intense movie. There's a lot of times where it's like, I didn't get anyone's name. I'm not sure that made the final cut, but the credit is Carrie or Jermaine or whatever. So it was like, Hey, but Hey, at least the town felt alive instead of everyone's accredited glorified extra. Not very much as the. No, it was. Yeah. Having.

[00:39:23] And getting to work with like Francesca was interested. She's a great act, like really good actor. Intense. Um, you know, her mother's Francesca Fisher. Yep. Right. So yeah. Yeah. So she like, they are, I think it's in her blood, but it's also like her passion and energy is amazing. Like I, that's the, she's probably one of the first actors I worked with where I'm like,

[00:39:52] she has like, she has energy, like acting energy. And then, um, it's interesting because Alicia, Claire and Brenton are all from Australia and they're totally chill. Like they are, you know, uh, Alicia did, it was on a fear of the walking dead television series. So she's, you know, she was, I think, I don't know how the network allowed it or whatever, but she was allowed to do like an indie film while she was still doing the series.

[00:40:21] And this was, this was it. You know, if they, kudos to line producers, they really don't get enough love because they have to figure out, Hey, we can only shoot your scenes on these days. If they have to be free hour days, we'll make it work. But that means makeup's going to probably get a little extra. Yep. Can have no screw ups. No, like we cannot, if we miss a day, we're done. Right. But, um, we're cooked if we miss a day.

[00:40:47] But, um, I was really, I think the best thing to happen off that was that I, I made lifelong friends with the writer, uh, Michael Arcoff. He's a phenomenal person. And then, um. I swear with the Gates brothers. Cause they did, uh, God. Scenic route, which was. Yes. With Josh Jamal and. Violet Tramity with. Yeah. Yes. And, uh, what's his name? Folder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From, uh, Ripper. Yeah. Reaper. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, he's in the beast or.

[00:41:18] What is it? The, uh, not the Harry Potter series, but the offshoot of the Harry Potter series. Oh. Fantastic Beasts. Yes. He's in that. Yes, he is. But yeah. So that Dan Folder. Dan Folder. But yeah, they were, they were fun. Um, but I was fortunate, uh, Ben and Breton and I still talk to this day, which is pretty rare, right? Like usually you work in a production and you're like best friends for, you know, 30 days and then you never see each other again. Right. I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:47] Like none of those other productions. It's such a weird film is such a weird medium. Cause you make, you get super tight with these people. You are both pretending to be, you're lying or whatever it is that works for you as an actor, but your characters are, you know, intimately entwined. Like your characters are best friends or husband and wife or brothers or whatever.

[00:42:12] And so you get stuck in that mode for that amount of time and you're super close. Yes. And then, you know, and that's true emotions, right? Cause you're in, in order to act, you had, those have to be your emotions. And then all of a sudden it's like, okay, job's done. See ya. And then you like a year goes by and then you see each other or six months, you see each other at the premiere, you're like, Hey, you know, and it's just like, okay, this is weird. Like we haven't spoken. And a lot of emotion in small amounts of time.

[00:42:41] And it's like, that's why when I see people complaining about when some sequel or rebooted franchise comes back and is like, well, here's the thing, you know, you got to find the characters again, the longer it's been. So yeah, it is. Yeah. That is tough. And if I got only one take. Yeah. Good luck. Exactly. Yeah. Like you really have to dial it in, but it's just a figure of speech, but even then like six takes and then. Yeah. No, sometimes, I mean, it depends on the production too.

[00:43:11] Sometimes you get the one like you, I think that's the thing as an actor, you have to be prepared no matter the size of production. If you are a supporting role, you might have the one and that's it. So you gotta be, you have to be, it's all, you know, be prepared, be focused. You're at the editors. Get it done. That too. Yeah. And the director and the exec, I mean, depending on series, film, whatever, but yeah. And that's just, that's the way the business is.

[00:43:37] It's, I think you have to realize whether it's film or series, if you're a part of it, it's always what's best. If the film is a baby, what's best for the baby. Right. And you have to do service to the baby. Right. Yeah. You could be, you could have had like, you were supposed to be the main character, but we lost this footage. So you're no longer going to be the main character. Sorry. And then it's like, but that's the way it works. Right. Like that's whatever is best for the baby.

[00:44:07] But yeah. I mean, that was Dan Fogler. If you haven't seen it yet, man, that, that was perfect casting for that making of the Godfather miniseries. The Offer on Paramount. Yeah. He got to play Coppola himself and like, see, I would have, how would anyone, you know, be able to interpret that? You know, he had the physique already. Yes. But then he's got to talk like him, think like him.

[00:44:35] And that's not a typical Dan Fogler role, right? Like that's, that's like, so that's, again, that's acting, right? Like I think going against type or whatever that there's something about, I mean, I don't know about you, but I love watching an actor where they're like, you know, like Zach Galifianakis, for instance, when he does drama, you're like, I can't, like, he's such good. He's so good at drama. Or, you know, like Paul Walterhausen, right? He's like, he started up as like just the weirdo.

[00:45:04] He's great at being so awkward. Right. And then all of a sudden he does Blackbird and you're like, oh, that's an actor. Like, man, that guy is good. Right. I had to stress that because everyone already knows Darren Egerton and like, and they're calling him by his character names. I'm like, yeah, but you got to keep an eye out for this guy. It's like, yeah, I saw him in my Tanya, but now he's doing something different. He's not just being the, you know, Black Klansman late night, the five. He's not just being the jerk, terrible person. He's not even being the lowlife. Sometimes he's being comic relief.

[00:45:33] So it's like, okay, you know, he could be a Melissa McCarthy or Jack Black type. Right. Yeah. That's always impressive to me. Like I always, there's something like fascinating about someone that goes against type. I mean, even it goes back every, like maybe specifically comedians, but like when you look at Jim Carrey needed his first drama role. Like, I don't, I don't know if it was, uh, I don't know if Truman would, would that be Truman or would it be spotless, you know, sunshine of the.

[00:46:02] Uh, yeah, definitely Truman. Cause I mean, and that's not including, you know, cable guy, how that's like now, but that he took it so hard back then because it was a flop with critics and audiences, even though it was a dark comedy with some satire. So I, yeah. But yeah. I mean, you, you, you got time for acceptance versus these other guys who are constantly having to fight their management, fight the studio. And by fight, I don't mean get argue.

[00:46:29] I mean, they have to say, I'd like to politely turn that down. I know you want me to do that. I don't want to be your monkey. So to speak, you know, it is almost so hard because it's like, you have to kind of, you have to put your, the line in the sand, but you also have to say it very delicately to where you don't burn the bridge either. You have to basically say, I'm feeling exploited right now. Don't take it personally.

[00:46:57] I know you're just want to copy. You want to milk me for the next five things based on name, based on what I did previously, but I don't want to keep doing that. Right. Something new and different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's the goal of every, I mean, that's, I think the dream of the goal, the dream of every actor is being able to choose, right? Like we'll return after these messages. All right.

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[00:49:53] Can I be the quirky bartender, and then you have me be the desk sergeant who's got a loud mouth? Right. But the idea that people have come to you, I mean, that's, it, I don't know, I'm one of those actors I hate, I do a ton of them, but I hate auditioning. Like, I absolutely hate, there's so much more. It's so organizing. Right. You only have the info, and then you've got to be able to adapt when they say, hey, try this now. Yeah.

[00:50:21] Uh, did you really just ask me to do it with that accent? Right. Yeah. Well, it's, it's kind of a test though, too, is like, yeah, see how good they are at adapting. Yeah, it is. Right. But I think, you know, the, the thing I, it's just so stressful. It's, everyone's like, well, don't take it personally. We didn't, you know, there's could be a, uh, you know, you hear this all the time. Like, oh, it's not you. It's just, you weren't right for the part. And it could be a myriad of reasons why don't take it personally.

[00:50:49] But it's like, well, it's my face and my body and my acting. How do I not take it personally? And I know what they're saying. Like, I get it. But at the same time, you're, you're putting yourself out there into a role. And if you don't get it, even if, I mean, let's be real. Even if you do get it, you put your part of you into this character. Yes. And then it, then it dies. Right.

[00:51:16] So every time you do a character, that character ends up dying. Right. Whether it's, whether you're doing it for just an audition or if you're doing it for, you know, a year. Or that character at some point. I love that you said that. Because, yeah, everyone likes to then over-dramatize this or be like, yeah, everybody's being a drama queen. I'm like, no, it's a psychological thing. When you're actually doing it.

[00:51:41] I mean, kind of like, if you want to minimize this to where, I don't want to minimize this in the record. If you want to look at this in a different way, that still gets the same message across. It's like, yeah, just look at this, like when you're the guy who makes the hot dogs and popcorn for whatever public event. You got to put the same amount of effort each and every time. And if you haven't done it in a while, you got to figure out how do I decrease the machine? How do I start up again?

[00:52:07] And same thing with, if you were doing a theme park attraction, it's like, okay, here's how we're going to do the cowboy shootout. Here's how we're going to do the giant monster and escape adventure room scene, you know, as like a haunted house. Everything is like, okay, here's how we're going to scare people without making them sue us. Even though they're paying to have us scare them. Yeah. Don't put your hands on them. Obviously, no one likes that.

[00:52:36] It's like, it's just five inches. And so that way they can't whack you. And at the same time, they go, oh, I'm going the other direction for the minotaur maze that we've seen. I do this as security. It's like we have to tell people at the over-the-top parties. It's like, hey, you know, get there earlier so then they know, okay, so-and-so is going to breathe down my neck if we don't leave on time. But also remind them, hey, you can go inside and party. We're not saying stop the party. Not here to be the party pooper.

[00:53:06] Right. Right. So not going to be good cop, bad cop, utter bullshit. You know, it's just right now. You did bring up a good point. And I meant to actually ask this prior to this is like. Since you finally have been able to represent your indigenous background in Uncontained. And but prior to that. What were a lot of auditions for indigenous often like?

[00:53:35] Because I know you worked on a French documentary about the. Oh, yeah. So that that. I'll just say that. That sounds great. Yeah. Thank you. The. So I got. That's a. I got connected through a friend of a friend who is an expert in demining and unexploded ordinance. And involved with a lot of organizations.

[00:54:02] And he had shot a couple of excellent documentaries about the situation in Laos. And about the. Oh, man. That's heavy. Yeah. It's mostly about how there's over. And I'm going to get this number wrong. I believe there's seven point eight. Trillion tons of unexploded ordinance in the world. So there has to be. With how badly we've abused the planet.

[00:54:30] I mean, even in heat waves now, there's no way we don't have something that's. Yeah. So. But it's. Yeah. So it's landmines. Cluster bombs. You know, all kinds of things. And there's. He wanted to do a documentary about the Ottawa Accord, which is where. Yeah. Where it's. I think. Originally, I believe it was Brussels who started it.

[00:54:59] And then Canada picked it up and presented it. When. Where it was like. Gotcha. Yeah. Right. Like, let's. Let's. Go to the world leaders and say. Let's draft this document. Go to the UN and say. Let's not make landmines anymore. Because the overwhelming majority of. Of victims of landmines are children. And women. Right. Because children. What can we do to avoid this? You know. Right. Yeah. And how do we demine. What's already there. Right.

[00:55:29] Because countries like. Like Colombia. Cambodia. Laos. You know. Egypt. All these. Oh. There's just. You know. Afghanistan. There's so much unexploded ordinance. And landmines all over. How do we demine them? And Cambodia has an excellent program. And they were. Went and trained. Colombia. On how to demine. But it was really.

[00:55:57] He wanted to. To not only cover the current state of. Of landmines. And unexploded ordinance. But also. So. How do we. Get this. Ottawa treaty. Up and running. Because it was. Probably the greatest. Successful. Grassroots. Movement. In politics. In the last. In probably the 20th century. And so. It was really started by all these. Non-government organizations. Saying. We need to do something. You know. There's like.

[00:56:27] 20 of them at least. Yeah. Saying. You know. We need to. Demine. We need to find money. Go into these countries. That we've. Put landmines in. Through all these various wars. And remove these landmines. So children stop. Getting blown up. And dying. Or losing their limbs. And so. It was about. That movement. And who. Ushered that in. And going. To the UN. And getting. Every. Member. Nation of the UN. To sign this.

[00:56:57] Accord. Except for. The United States. Russia. And China. And I believe. I can't remember the other country. Guys. The problem's here. Write it. Oh. Why not? Just sign it. So we. But yeah. So. But we. We do do a ton of funding. To demine. In the countries that we have put landmines in. And so. It was. That was an opportunity. I wanted to jump on. Because I feel like. You know. Number one. This. It's. You know. It's a great cause. Number two.

[00:57:27] Yeah. What kind of person. Would be against that. Right. And so. Regardless of what side anyone's on. It seemed like. Any kind of. Anti-war thing. Always got re-read as. You're not patriotic. Blah blah blah. Yeah. It's like. I don't want anyone to die. Right. I mean. It's. It's in the movies. But the. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Get the violence in the movies. But yeah. The Republicans. Republicans. And Democrats alike. And in advance. You know. Support this.

[00:57:58] So we were able to. They got too many corporate donors. And then when you try to. Sponsor the whole. Get money out of politics. Then you get. This other pushback on. Oh. Then no one wants to work. I'm like. Well then we got an even bigger problem. Right. Yeah. But they. It was nice. Because this was like a unifying. Moment. Where. We were able to go. And interview. Republicans and Democrats. Senators and. Reps. And then. Also go to the UN. And we were allowed to.

[00:58:28] I guess it's. I didn't realize. Until we were there. But. It's pretty rare for the UN. To allow. Private. Cameras. Inside the UN. Especially inside the. Chambers. And so. We went to the General Assembly. And we're allowed to. Record. A bunch of the proceedings. From all the. Member nations. On. And dealing with landlines. And so. Because they have this whole system. Where because. You have the UN. And you have the. The General Assembly. And it's so.

[00:58:58] Iconic. And the world looks to that. As you know. Hope. And. So they have to. To be fair to all the members. They have their own camera system. Their own camera operators. And their own footage. Yeah. And they release it right. So you just. Disproving what we said in chambers. Yeah. We got cameras here. Yeah. So it was. That was an interesting. Like that was. The phenomenal project to work on. You know. That was. At state. Being able to produce that.

[00:59:28] But it was. You know. Hopefully you do something like that. That makes a difference. But yeah. So that was. That project. I would love to do more. With it. We have a lot more footage. And. You know. Hopefully we get. More funding. To continue to do more movies. Because I think. As insane as it is. You talk to Gen Z. Or even a lot of millennials. But. Especially. Specifically Gen Z. And they have no idea what a landline is. Because it's. How long has it been. Yeah. Since they.

[00:59:57] Since they've seen a movie with landlines. Right. Like. They know about Israel and Palestine. But they don't know about other stuff. Like Bosnia versus Serbia. They don't. Know about other. Conflicts. That are so second nature. They're just not covered anymore. Well. And they're using. A lot of them in the Ukraine. Right now. So it's. And no one's talking about that conflict anymore. They're so. Tired to talk about Russia. It's like. Guys. We got to talk about this. Yeah. But it's. I think. If I. No. Again. It's been a while. But if I remember the statistic. You know. I'm not an expert on it.

[01:00:26] And I wish I knew. I should have these stats with me. But. There's a great organization called Legacies of War. And they're based. Out of. D.C. And I believe Cleveland. And they. And they have. They do a lot of work. They're the. To demine and everything. And they have the stats. But I think it's. You know. Someone. Steps on a landmine. And is injured or dies from a landmine. Like every. Two and a half minutes. So. That puts it in perspective of like how.

[01:00:56] If people think like. Oh. They're just. There's like one or two spread out through the jungle. Or the desert. Or wherever. No. Like. There's enough where everyone. Someone dies every two and a half minutes. That's an issue. Right. And if we can. Help solve that. You know. It may not. I think it's easy not to know about. But. Yeah. If you can get attention to it. And the rest. The rest of the world is aware of it. It's just. We're not. So. If we can call more attention to it. I think a lot more people would be like. Would be interested in helping out. But. Anyhow. But yeah. That was.

[01:01:26] I'd love to do more documentaries that. Could build awareness and make a difference. Because. You know. As much as. I think. Scripted film. Or scripted television. Can get people to think. And hopefully connect emotionally. And that. I think. Is the. If you're doing. Art. The whole idea of art. Is to bring. Humanity together. Right. And I think. That's great. And if you can. If you get people.

[01:01:55] To see a different perspective. Especially emotionally. And attached to it. I think that's the power of film. But that being said. I also think. You know. There's a certain power to documentaries. Because they're true. Right. And they're. That raw power. Raw energy. Yeah. Yeah. And that can make an immediate. Tangible difference. Right. So. Anyhow. But yeah. So that's. You know. It's good to balance. I think. Keep it balanced too. Of like the.

[01:02:25] The fantastical. And fun. Stuff that we do. With. You know. Doing. Being able to give back to humanity. And. You know. Also. Do stuff. That could make a difference. In. Just one or. One or two people's lives. Let alone. Thousands. So. Um. But yeah. So it's. It's. Uh. I guess my resume is. You know. Landmines. And. And. K-drama. You've already been avoiding. Landmines. All your. All your life though.

[01:02:55] Like. Trying to get on. Bigger. Better productions. Yeah. And. Yeah. There's been some good. Indigenous representation. On TV. They. They finally adapted. Tony Hillerman's. Officer Chi novels. Hmm. Which are about. Native American. Police chief. And. A former FBI agent. That's now on AMC. Darkwinds TV show. Yep. Yep. That's phenomenal. Zane. Zane McLernan.

[01:03:25] Yes. I think. I think he got robbed. From. The Emmys. This last. I mean. That's their final season. He. Every production. He can be funny. Like. If you've seen. On Reservation Dogs. Longmire. Yes. And Reservation Dogs. I mean. He's hilarious on there. They joked out. Those are all like. Sister shows. It was like. Yeah. Yeah. But he. We got such truthful. Navajo. Stories and everything. And it's like. Yeah. Well. They. In the. Well. The idea too.

[01:03:55] That like. You mentioned Fargo. Yeah. I like how he started off. As this like. Psychopathic killer. And you're like. Man. This guy is just. And then. But you don't want to play that. All your life. You know. Well. No. But I think. I think by like. Episode five or six. They showed like. The human side of him. Yeah. And all of a sudden. You're like. Big irony. Yeah. And you're like. Oh. That's. He's a good actor. And then I think. He did. He did. He did. Amazing. Amazing work.

[01:04:29] He's. Heartbreaking. And phenomenal. And diverse. And I think. You know. He's great. In Dark Winds. But. You know. I think he's phenomenal. In. In Westworld. But. I'd like to see what he does in the future. Because I think he's. He's. Excellent. Excellent actor. I. I feel stupid for not knowing his first name. But. There's another actor on Res Dogs. It's hilarious. His last name is Gold Tooth. Oh. Yeah. I can't. I can't believe I can't remember.

[01:04:59] He and I are from the same state. Dallas Gold Tooth. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Dallas Gold Tooth. There you go. How could I forget. Yeah. Yeah. Like he is. An amazing talent. Amazing. And he's so. Relatable. Right. Like I. Regardless if you are. But. Yeah. I think. Indigenous. You know. Indigenous. There's a lot. There's. I highly recommend. There's a book. Called. Never Whistle at Night. By Shane Hawk.

[01:05:29] It's a. It's a collection. There's such a diversity. Of Native American stories. To be told. Because you know. There's. Over 500. Distinct tribes. Recognized tribes. In the United States. Alone. But then you go. There's got to be more. Surely. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's. That's just. That's just recognized. By the U.S. Government. That's not. Including the ones that. You know. Are not recognized. Or. Not enrolled. And there's. That's a whole different discussion. Go. Go see the movie. You know. I'm not an Indian.

[01:06:00] But am I. Am I butchering that? Not. I can't remember the name now. Fantastic. Talking about documentaries. Like great documentary. But. I think it's called. I'm no Indian. But it deals with. Disenrollment. And. You know. What we consider. Yeah. Native American. Yes. You're no Indian. Thank you. Thank you. Yep. That's the one. But. Phenomenal doc. But. The. All over the world. There's. You know. Being.

[01:06:30] Pacific Islander. That. There's a lot of. Stories to be told. You know. And I think. It's. People. There's a. Appetite for it. Right. And there's also. A diversity of voices. That can be told. Like you know. You have. Taika. Wayatiti. Yes. Taika. Wayatiti. Yep. Right. He's fantastic. And he has a definite style to him. Yes. And he has definite something to say. Right. There's. You know. He just passed. But one of my.

[01:07:00] One of my favorite directors. Marty. Directors. And I'm. I'm blanking at names tonight for some reason. But. He did. He did. He did a James Bond movie. Oh. He did. Once were warriors. Lee Tamahari. Lee Tamahari. Rest in peace. Yeah. Yes. He just passed away. But he. You know. Phenomenal. I love. Filmmaker. Very diverse. Yeah. Like he. Once were warriors. You know. Did you know that?

[01:07:30] Yeah. Yeah. What. What is it about? What is it? Redemption. Broken hearted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Worst person on the planet. He's now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's. You know. And then there's not to mention. There's North of North TV series. But anyway. Drive. Stuff you wish we could get here in PBS or something. You know. Yeah. That's. That's a thing that I. You know. Canada does a great job of doing a lot of. Importing. Focused on. Yeah.

[01:08:00] Indigenous stories. But. You know. They're all over the world. There's even. You know. I'm half Norwegian. And there's. Uh. Indigenous community. The Sami. And. And they're. Reindeer herders. Right. And they're the. Like. Last true. Indigenous. Uh. Group in Norway. And they have. They continue their traditions. And speak their own language. And there. There's some fascinating stories. Um. Man. I don't know what to do. I mean.

[01:08:29] I need more coffee or something. But they're. Pathfinder. There's a Sami movie called Pathfinder. Yes. Which is phenomenal. Um. But yeah. There's. I think. We were doing well. Especially. The. Like. Probably three years ago. When. Uh. We had res dogs. And we had. Uh. You know. Reservation dogs. And dark winds. And then. Um. You know. Sterling Harjo. Was able to get. How. What's the name of this new series? The lowdown. Right.

[01:08:59] Yes. In greenlit. Um. And then. UCLA. Does a report every year. On diversity. And we've backslid. 20. 30%. Right. And. Um. You know. USC Annenberg. Mm-hmm. Does a. Does a. Report every year. You know. Collating the data. From the last two years. And. Um. You know. It's just. It's sad. Representation. As a whole. For. For brown. And black. You know. People of color.

[01:09:30] Um. Yes. It's really taken a nosedive. In the last two years. Which is. Just too bad. Because we're. Really making progress. Just as. You know. As. It's like. If we didn't have COVID. We'd have all these other barriers. And it's like. Why is the funding going through? Why are we doing this? You know. It's. Well. And. And just having. Just having representation. I mean. So representation is a big issue. I think the. Just having. Uh. The same. Proportionate numbers. Of. People represented. But. You know. That's a.

[01:09:59] It's not a. Quantitative value. That you have in films. Like. You know. You have. You have the movie Aloha. Where Emma Stone played. Yeah. You know. You know. A half. Well. What a mess though. It's just like. Guys. You're not fooling anybody. No. Well. And on top of that. How do you shoot a movie in Hawaii. That takes place in Hawaii. With no Hawaiians in it. Like. That doesn't make. Any sense. Has anyone ever gone to Hawaii. On vacation. And. And not seen.

[01:10:30] The. Indigenous community. In Hawaii. Like. It's just. It's. You know. You had to try to do that. I get that people want a gig. But it's like. Just look at it. It's like. I can play that. No. You can't play that. Yeah. No. Like. That was a big. I know she's apologized for it. It was a big mistake. But still. You know. Representation is. Is interesting. Because people are like. Well. Especially right now. There's so much discourse going on. About. Lord of the Rings. The search for Gollum. And.

[01:10:59] The Odyssey. Right. And. You know. I keep telling people. Right. Right. Like. You know. You want to talk about Helena Troy. Well. Her father's Zeus. Right. And he took the form of a goose. When. He made it with her mother. Right. So. Yeah. Are we really going to get that out of shape. About what. What color she is. That. And. This is it. People will get. So angry about the wrong thing. Is like. Hey. Listen. I don't give.

[01:11:29] Too. If it is. About. What the. Newest Star Wars. Or Ghostbusters movie. Did. When there's so many. Way more important things. I can be worried about. Like. Yeah. Why. If you don't like it. Don't see it. Don't like it. Don't see it. I usually wait for the hype. To die down. And. You know. Unless it's a movie. I do have to see on the big screen. But then. Yeah. Yeah. We're getting into so many other areas. Where it's just like. You know. Like. Why don't we talk about stuff. That really does matter. Like. Why. Women are still having to fight.

[01:11:59] To be paid the same as men. Why. How film sets. Can be so much. More safer. Than they used to not be. Right. Yeah. I think it's. You know. It's weird. I think at a personal level. It's a weird topic. Because I think people. Are uncomfortable. Talking about it. And that. Discomfort. Turns out. You know. Rears in ways. That can be ugly. Or not. They'd rather be angry. At some controversial filmmaker. Who brings it up. Right.

[01:12:28] And still listening to what they're saying. Exactly. Like. I think. I think that discomfort. Ends up in anger sometimes. Yes. And misunderstanding. And really. At the end of the day. We're more alike. Than we are dissimilar. And I think people. There's so much in common. Yeah. You have to not want to see that. But. You know. I think. From a personal perspective. I grew up. My brother and I grew up. In a very white. Um. Dominated area. Like we were just. Um. You know. We had. We had.

[01:12:58] Good. Great childhoods. It's just that. You know. In elementary school. I was like one of two. Non-white kids. And in high school. I was one of like. Maybe. Maybe 15. Non-white kids. And then in college. I went to. Uh. A school. It's. It was. Um. In a town called St. Cloud. And it was nicknamed. White cloud. Right. Because we had. Less than 1% of the population. Was. Was. White. Not white. But. Um. You know. Growing up in that environment. Um. Not seeing.

[01:13:27] Anybody that looked like me on TV. That was. Not a stereotype. Or a bad guy. Yeah. Just. Just didn't happen. Right. Like I. I grew up not seeing anyone that looked like me. Um. That's so true. It's like. And. Yeah. And you don't. Is it. Or a victim. Everyone's got to be a victim role. And it's like. Well. Yeah. Hold on. Can we be a living breathing individual? Right. Just a human being. But the. You know. Growing up that way. Um. Not seeing anyone that looks like you. And then.

[01:13:57] Not seeing anyone that looks like you. In a fantasy world. On television or film. You grew up thinking that you. Can't be. You know. You don't. As a kid. You don't understand. You're like. Yeah. I. I can't be. This astronaut. Or I. I don't see any astronauts that look like me. I don't see. In movies. I don't see any. Heroes that look like me in movies. I don't see any. You know. In real life there are. But you're not watching real life. Like. As a kid. You don't watch the news. You watch. Science fiction. You watch. You know. Action.

[01:14:27] You watch. Horror. And. In those. The only people that you see that look like you. Are the ones that are getting killed. Or doing the killing. And so. You. End up. That translates into you thinking like. Well. Being a doctor is not for me. Or being a lawyer. Or a cop. Or whatever. I want to do this. But I don't want to. Yeah. Have that be my. Comment. No one's ever. Yeah. Like no one. I've never seen someone like that. That looks like me. So I don't know if that's an option for me. Yeah. And then.

[01:14:57] That's kind of. So. I want to make. I want to make sure that our. Our kids grow up. Seeing people that look like them. On TV. So that they can. Have the dream about being wherever they want to be. It's just not a question. But yeah. I mean. I think that's why I'm contains being well received. Is like. You just start off as this stranger. Who goes on a path. He didn't even feel. He desired. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The elements.

[01:15:26] You had some government foul play. But I loved how you chose to focus on survival. And survival is another topic that gets very. People like to bring it into. Prepper or conspiracy logic. It's like no. Here's just. Let's just for argument's sake. Here's the scenario. Here's how I'm going to survive. Yeah. I'm going to fight. And. You stated in a few intriguing interviews. How. You reworked this multiple times. With your spouse. Who's also your business partner. Yeah. I got to ask you. Just like. Which draft number would you estimate.

[01:15:56] You got to. Before you're like. Okay. Now we're ready to shoot. So the. So that's a crazy thing. I think. You know. But this script was probably. I mean. By the time I wrote uncontained. I'd probably written. I don't know. I mean. Over 50 scripts. So. Oh man. Yeah. So I was at a place where. You know. I. I mean. There's a lot of scripts. And so. I wrote uncontained in about a week. And.

[01:16:26] The crazy. The. Crazy thing is. Because it was the first script. I was actually able to write for a location. I knew intimately. And for people I knew. As good as I know myself. Or as well as I know myself. I was. I could have probably shot that. Like. Whatever fifth draft that was. Fifth or sixth draft. But. I think by the time. We shot. You know. And that's the problem. I think when you're a director writer.

[01:16:56] Is that you. You always fiddle with your script. Always. Yes. Like I. Every single day. So. I don't. Yeah. I mean. It was probably the thousandth draft. By the time we went into prep. Where I was said. Okay. I am not going to change it from here on out. Unless. You're not going to overcook this turkey. Yeah. No. Unless we. Absolutely. Unless there's a. You know. Unless we cast somebody. And they end up. You know. Passing away. There's no way I'm rewriting the script. So. You know. Because you have to have.

[01:17:26] The script is the skeletal structure. Yes. You have to have the bones set. Before you go into production. So. I would say. You know. The structure itself. It was probably the. I don't want to sound like an asshole. It was probably the second. But. Realistically. I'd say. I think it was probably like the. Ninth. Draft. No. That's awesome. It's just good. Inspiring to know. Because everyone goes. Oh. I'm done. And I'm like. No.

[01:17:56] We're not done. Until we say we're done. You know. I generally. As a rule. Before uncontained. I wouldn't send a draft. To anybody. In the industry. To read. Whether that was. A manager. Or an agent. Or. A actor. Or producer. Or anybody. Until it was like. The 20th. Draft. That was just a rule. Like I. I've. Figured. Like you. Get excited about ideas. Like you're like. Oh this is. I cooked up a bunch of really good ideas. I'm super excited about this concept. And the themes are great.

[01:18:26] The tone is consistent. This is ready to go. And you're so excited as a creative. And then. I think. In the beginning. I would send something off. And then I'd be like. Oh. But I could have done this. Or this was better. Or. Oh. There's a mistake here. And then you look like a fool. You know. Amateur hour. Right. When you're like. Oh I'm sorry. Don't read this draft. Read this other draft. That I'm about to send you. Like I sent you the wrong draft. On accident. Well. They know very well. What that means. Right. Like this isn't. You know. The people you're sending it to. It's not their first rodeo. So you have to.

[01:18:56] I think the discipline comes in. Where you're like. I really want to send this off. Don't. Well. Don't. I would encounter people like that. Who did the whole. Unfortunately not working anymore. But they did the whole. Like. I don't want to show you my script. Because I'm afraid you'll steal it. I'm like. So that means you don't have any. Passion. That doesn't. I think. That all the time. That's a good warning sign. You know. Yeah. It is. Like I think. I don't want to unleash this product. At a tech conference. Because. It's not ready to be tested. Which means.

[01:19:25] It's not a good product probably. No. I mean. And realistically. I think the number of scripts. That have ever been stolen. You've heard about. Right. You've read about them. It's just not so good. Just rework it. And make it their own. They might only. Really. Realistically. Just steal a plot twist. They're not going to steal the whole thing. So. But it. And if they did. It's just so easy to sue. Especially. Or maybe it's not that. Developed a story. You know. I don't. Exactly. Like if your concept. Is that so general. That's not something. You may not. You may not. A mission movie. Anyone can write that.

[01:19:54] So it's like. Yeah. You have a good villain here. Like the minute we saw him. This is a hard trope to do. But it's like. Yeah. He thinks he's bigger than he really is. He starts off as small. In his interrogation. So we're rooting for his comeuppance. Yeah. And. With. The other fight scenes that were here. And the other. Glory mayhem. Did you think of expanding this. Almost into a kind of a. Twilight Zone anthology. Uh. So. So this started off before COVID. Uh. I had been making the rounds. Pitching this as a series.

[01:20:24] Called contained. Um. And I had been in front of Lionsgate. Uh. Legendary. HBO. Yeah. Yeah. Like a bunch. A bunch of people. And they're all. Excited about it. Um. Solid tracking shots. So it. You know. An over the shoulder. I didn't feel like any time was wasted. It would be literally impossible to be bored by this. Like. It's very. Thank you. Intriguing. It's. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's. I think the. I think if. You can do.

[01:20:54] You know. You can do almost. Any. Genre. As long as you keep the tension high. Yes. You have to keep. You have to keep. People watching. I mean. You can shoot. And that's something that I take away from. A credit to two people. Uh. The person who taught me to write. Brian Nelson. No relation. And. Great. And James. James Strong. Like Brian Nelson. You know. He wrote. 30 Days of Night. Heart Candy. Uh. He worked on the shows. Da Vinci's Demons. Um. That was a good show.

[01:21:23] Night Flyers. Like he's. A phenomenal writer. And. James is. Like I said before. You know. Just a phenomenal director. And I think. You know. That they both. In separate areas. Taught me that. You know. You can shoot. Nothing. As long as there's tension. Right. Like you can have. You can be shooting. And you have to set up the. Physical geography. For the viewer. Right. So the audience needs to see. Like. When and where are we. Right.

[01:21:53] And. When you do that. You have to do it in a specific way. Where they can feel connected. And familiar. Right. When I get. Yeah. We have snow. And. Granted. Not everyone's. Put their feet in snow before. Right. But. Everyone has been cold before. Yes. Right. And so. Establishing the cold. With the auditory. Wind. Prior to the scene opening. Seeing the. Seeing the wind blowing the trees. And then getting down to the snow. Puts people emotionally connected. Like. Okay.

[01:22:23] I've been here before. I can relate to this. Right. And if you can set that up. Then you can do the emotional geography. Where you lay into. Well. This is. Here's this person. And they're going through something. That you know. Because of the physical geography. Doesn't feel good. Right. Something's a little off. Yep. And then. Because of that. Physical discomfort. They're like. Okay. And then. Then emotionally. You can say. Well now this person's in danger. Or this person's goals are this. And he's so close to getting them. But. You know. Is he.

[01:22:52] How close. And he's almost there. And you know. And getting the audience invested. I think is key. And so when you show. You know. I'm not just showing. Branch. Which is with snow on them. Because they're pretty. I mean. Yes. That's part of it. But. It's also working in the narrative. Of like. Okay. Here's. Where they are. This is a representation. Of life. And death. At the same time. Which. The audience will subconsciously. Pick up on. And I think that's the thing. Is that.

[01:23:22] I think people connect with our film. Because I don't treat the audience. Like idiots. Right. Because I. Audiences are. Are smart. And I think that is the biggest. I think that's the biggest. Um. Misstep of the industry. Right now. As a whole. Especially studios. Right. Is that they think audiences are stupid. And that is. The biggest fallacy. That there could possibly be right now. Audiences are smarter than they have ever been. Right. We are on multiple devices. Multiple formats.

[01:23:52] To be able to. To. Digest. Whether it's watching some tiny screen on your phone. To a tablet. To a laptop. To a home entertainment system. To IMAX. Right. We are able to. Take those. All various forms of media. Yes. And still understand the story. And follow the story again. This could be an RPG. Going back to the Dragon's. Yeah. Right. Right down the story. Find the beats. Find the. Yep.

[01:24:23] Like. You know it's a good story. If you want to keep coming back. So you want to revisit it. So. Yes. Yeah. Regardless of the execution. And who you hired. Adapted. Yeah. Yeah. Like. And I think that's key. Like. Audience members aren't stupid. Right. And I think that's. If you don't treat. You know. Treat them with. If you treat them with respect. Um. I think they'll respect the work. Right. Because again. It's only a reflection of what they see. So. Um. But yeah. I think. Again. You gotta. Keep.

[01:24:53] Keep tension high. Otherwise. You know. What are you doing? Um. And that. And that. You know. When I say tension too. That's not necessarily. I mean. Action helps. A lot. But. It's also. I think. Connecting with. The characters in the story. And having. Right. Like. You're pretty human in this. Even though we know. You have some supernatural. Yeah. You know. Like. But you gotta do that. You know. It's like. Yeah. Can't just be. Mindless killing machine. I mean. I've seen so many people. Struggle with it.

[01:25:22] When it comes to even doing. A role that. Like you say. Is a. A spy. Or martial artist. Or just. Even some other. Uncanny hero. Is like. It's tough to make the skill. Be a star. Without overshadowing. The person's. You know. What they're hired for. And then. Like you say. Having the look. While also the talent. To back it up. It's just such a. Uncanny balance. It's like. Yeah. How do we.

[01:25:52] An idea. Let alone. Crowdfunding. And when you can. Kind of read the room. Where it's like. This meeting's clearly gone south. Like. So. No one's listening. Oh. I mean. Pitching. So. You know. I. I don't know. So. I. I was fortunate enough to get. A sole. One sole investor. So we shot. Uncontained with pure equity. We had fifty five thousand dollars. Oh man. To shoot the film. So that was. You know. Obviously that's. For me.

[01:26:21] Because I'm not. The best producer in the world. I don't. I understand mezzanine financing. But I don't. Know it well enough to do it. I know. I get it. It is. I. I took calculus for. A year before I had to take it. And I realized. Yeah. Wow. A lot of it is a lot of trial and error. Mostly error. Yeah. Before you get. Well. And if you're using other people's money. There's that. Extra responsibility. That you're bearing. And you just don't want to screw up. So. But yeah. We had straight equity. And I. That was. Preferable.

[01:26:51] A guy named Byung Sa. Read the script. I pitched it to him. He was an executive producer on Cat Loves LA. And so I brought it to him. Said. You know. What do you think about this? And. And he said. He read it. He called back. And he said. How much money do you need? And I was like. Oh. Wow. That's. And so. We came to a number. And he cut a check for us. And then. We took that money. And. Yeah. And so it was. You know.

[01:27:21] 55,000 is a lot of money. But it's also. In the film. World is. Not. Hardly any money. Right. Like. Yeah. So. You know. Again. 100% of it goes to crew. We're going back to the 90s here. Where people. Do $10,000 movies. And have them put on HBO. But. Yeah. Different budget. Different fluctuations. You know. Right. And so. That was hard. As far as pitching goes. You know. So.

[01:27:49] One thing that really bothers me. Personally. Yes. Is. When I'm scrolling through Instagram. I see a lot of. People. Telling you. What you should or shouldn't do. As far as pitches. Or pitch decks. Or whatever. And I'm. I'm always like. Well that's not. That's not been my experience. And then I'll. And how do you know. Based on. Yeah. What. And like. You know. Look at them. And I'm like. Well. You know. You IMDB them. And you're like. Well they haven't done anything. Like. Why. How do they have a million followers.

[01:28:18] And they kick out five videos a day. Or reels a day. And they're giving all this advice. And it's not correct. So. You know. I'm not saying all of them are that way. Right. No. You're absolutely right. I. It's like. YouTube tutorials are a good shortcut. If you can't afford to college. But at the same time. You got to do some. Backstory on that. I mean. We were talking off air. Before we got started on the. Biohacking and other stuff. You got to do the research on that. It's like. Interesting. How this person I once admired.

[01:28:47] Is now only hiring people. Who are their side investors. To talk on their show. Right. Film hustle. And it seemed like. A lot of people they were interviewing. Were people who hadn't made it. So it's just like. I did get asked that once. I'm like. Why don't you speak at this college? I'm like. Because I haven't made it. Right. Yeah. That wouldn't be fair to anyone. Yeah. I'm not going to outline a. I'll give some tips and tricks.

[01:29:17] Of what I would recommend. But that. What working on an indie film. Is so different from. I mean. Maybe the closest you got. Is maybe a TV show. Or a web series. But it's not going to be. The same gist. In what you're working on. A 20 million dollar feature. And now. They're getting into the 50 million dollars. Now. Because. You know. They got extra star power. They got extra demand schedules. And. All I can say. Is just like any job. Is just like. You do have to. Balance the different personas. You do have to make sure.

[01:29:46] Everyone's cooking with gas. And not. Flaking. You know. It's. You have to do your research. And seek to. And seek the. You know. Most amount of information you can. And make the best decision you can. But I think. Well. How you met that guy. Who told you the blunt. Deal. Of how. What people are looking for. Different kinds of personas. And it's like. You know. But. That's. That depends on which. Yeah. Like. Where the product is. Is. Well. I think that's the thing too. You got to know who you're. So.

[01:30:16] Pitching advice. You have to know who you're pitching to. Right. You have to know. Yes. Like. Okay. If. I'm pitching this network. What are they looking for. Right now. Because what they're looking for. Six months ago. May not be what they're looking for today. And. You know. That is key. So. Going in knowing that. And. Being. I think the. Okay. Here's just the truth of it. I. For me personally. I.

[01:30:46] I just don't work for everybody. But for me personally. I'll research. Everything to death. And I'll go in and just say. Is this true? Like. Is this. So. I just. Googled that. You guys are looking for nothing but comedies right now. Is that true? And they'll just go. They'll tell you. Like. They're human beings too. And they'll be like. No. I don't know. So. Yeah. I heard that too about us. But no. Actually. Right now. We're looking for horror movies. And you go. I've got this. Like. Horror movie. That blah. Blah. Blah. Or. You know. You just try to. Just talk to them like you're human beings. And say. Like. This is what I've heard.

[01:31:16] You know. There's no. You know. When I first started pitching to. Networks. Or. Studios. I was told. Don't ever bring a piece of paper. Don't bring a notepad. Don't bring your laptop. Don't bring this. Don't bring that. Only bring a pitch deck. That they can hold. That's physical. And then you take it back. At the end of the meeting. So that they can't copy it. Any images. Everything has to be just images. To present. So that you can talk about everything else. Oh no. Everything has to be images with text. Oh. Everything has to be. There's no.

[01:31:48] Yes. All these. Executives. They want. Yeah. Yeah. Executives don't read. That's just the. Not only do they not read. Yeah. They don't. No one's ever going to read your script. Right. At a high level. Like. Networks. Television studios. No one is going to read your script. They're not even going to read the first page. Right. It used to be. I know about some extras. Who were trying to do that. And hustle people. And they're like. Just because we're in a non-union state. Is like. And the actors. These were everybody. From Sandra Bullock. To Gerard Butler.

[01:32:18] On some of the 2010s movies. They were on. And it's like. They politely said. You can talk to my agent. It's like. Yeah. Because your agent is going to say. No. What have you done? But realistically. They'll never read it. Because. Yeah. I'm not. Even. Even people that buy it. So I've had scripts optioned. And I know they didn't read the script. But they optioned the script anyhow. Right. Like they. There's a fear of missing out. But executives don't read. I'd say. 10 years ago. There's a thing in Hollywood.

[01:32:47] Where I know a few executives. Personally. I don't know. What it was. Or where they decided this. But it was like. They'll read the first 11 pages. Of a script. Agents. Have a whole division. Like the big agencies. WME. CAA. UTA. Yes. They all have. They have a whole division. Called readers. Yes. Where they'll get. They'll be interns. Or kids. You know. People right out of college. And they'll read a script. And you know. In three categories. They'll give a. Recommend.

[01:33:16] Consider. Or. Deny. And. You know. That's. Again. It just depends on. Who reads the script. Like first of all. Who are they to read your script. Right. Like they haven't read anything themselves. Yeah. They may be right out of school. But chances are. They're like somebody's frat buddy. Right. So. Same thing with those indie companies. We always go. So and so is being hustled. Like even if that's the case. They only knew that person. For another producer friend. And another thing. I mean. That's how that Randall Emmett guy was. You know.

[01:33:47] Getting big names. Like. Robert De Niro. Stallone. Forrest Whitaker. For like five million dollars a day. To be on his. Limited release. Direct to video movies. Yeah. He had already exploited Bruce Willis. And co-produced the Irishman. And Peter Berg's lone survivors. So. Because he's a Wall Street guy. With money. You know. He got those connections. And he tricked those guys. So it is interesting how. Like you say. But people are going. So if they'll do that. They'll do anything. Like no.

[01:34:17] That's not necessarily the truth. It's like they. They tricked them or their agent. Because it looks like a semi-legit production. Here's the thing. You know. If you're talking. What talent is going to attach themselves. Whether it's a high level producer. Director. Or actor. Money talks. Right. Yes. Like you can have the. The worst production in the world. But if you say. Hey. I've got. Ten million dollars in escrow. Here's a. Here's a. You know. Author. Here's a. Stamped.

[01:34:47] Notarized. You know. Statement from the bank. Proving that I have this money. Sitting in a bank account. Yes. You know. Like. Hey. I have ten million dollars. I want to shoot an indie. And that's how he got them. It's like. It's just two days. Oh. What have I got to lose? Right. It's money. Right. So. You know. Two million dollars. Million dollars. Whatever the. The low fee is. Or whatever their lowest fee is. You know. That's. That's what's going to. It doesn't matter how good or bad the story is. It's how much money.

[01:35:17] Everything. Me. I'm professional. But. I'll be professional. Yeah. And that. And that's the other thing. So that's. That's the fastest way. I think. To green light. If there is a green light. If there's such a thing as a green light anymore. I think. The whole idea of like. Like well. This is a passion project. Every passion. Every project's a passion project. Like if you're not passionate about your project. Then don't. You shouldn't be in film. But going to like saying like. Oh this is a very. This story has to be told now. Yeah. That's the bare minimum. The story. Why does the story have to be told now?

[01:35:47] Right. You should be able. Whether you're pitching something to. Talent. Or a studio. Or a network. Or whoever. You have to be able to go in. You have to say. Like. Like. Just be open and vulnerable. That's what works. For me at least. And I just say. Look. I heard that you're looking for this. If that's true. I want to tell this. Because. Right now. This and this and this are happening. It's. Very topical. And I'm the one to tell it. Because.

[01:36:16] I have had personal experience with X, Y, and Z. And then they go. Okay. And then why. On top of that. I have to explain why no one else. Besides me. Can tell the story. I'm not just the best person to tell it. But no one else can tell it. As intimately or well as I can. And that could be. You know. For a bunch of reasons. But you have to figure out. What's. What is unique to you. Never lose your vision. No. And then. But also. You know. Why. You and why. Why can't you. Be replaced. Right. And I think that's.

[01:36:46] That's the. Really. If there's. A key to pitching. I don't. Everyone's like. No. I just. Worked with. I don't know. I'm the assistant to so-and-so. And we just pitched something. And the pitch deck was only pictures. Well that's great. That worked for you. Right. But you didn't get that meeting. Because your pitch deck was only pictures. You got that meeting based on. Somebody either vouching for you. Or your agent. Or because you did a project that. Is interesting to that studio. Or that person. Or not even the studio.

[01:37:16] Right. The individual. That you're having a meeting with. Saw something in you. But their boss may not. Right. So they're going to have to convince their boss. Or. Their wife. Really liked what you did. And they said. You should really pitch this guy. You know. You should talk to this guy. And the guy's. You know. But gradually. They're like. Yeah. Okay. Fine. I'll do it. So you don't know why you're in there. Right. Yes. And a lot of people will tell you. I was a big fan of this. Or I was a big fan of that. When I was going around with Contained.

[01:37:47] You know. I had a fleshed out. Series. Deck. A lot of people call it a Bible. But I didn't. Those things. You know. That worked back in the day of. I mean. That was like 20 years ago. Right. I had this deck. That. Every page had. A short synopsis of the episode. And it had like four or five pictures of. The theme and tones. That would get you into that episode. And then it was together as a collective.

[01:38:16] You could just look through the pictures. And you would say. Okay. I get. I completely understand the story. Just through the visuals. So they weren't like. Oh. Here's. What inspired me. Here's some art. That inspired me. And that would be the tone of the film. No. I'm very specific in. These could be. Storyboarded. This is a. Essentially a storyboard. I was going to ask you about that. I'm glad you're. Finding though. A justification of that. Because like there's. Yeah. A shot list. People also like to do the shot script. I don't know if you've used that method. No.

[01:38:46] So I. I did a. I did 440 shots. For the shot list. For Uncontained. Sweet. And then. The. The DP that we hired. To do that. There was a. Something personal came up. And they couldn't do it. So we had to scramble. To find a DP. In like. I think it was like 14 days. And so the DP. That we ended up hiring. Was like. I don't do shot lists. So it was like. Oh nice. So we.

[01:39:16] I guess we don't do shot lists. And you know. We'll figure out the shots. As we go. Which. Is a little scary. Because we only have 15 days to shoot. But at the same time. Based on his body of work. It was like. Okay. And he's a. 99% of what he shoots is commercials. So you know. He. He can move. Fairly quickly. And his crew. Was his crew. And so his. Is you know. AC. And the lighting.

[01:39:45] And the gaff. And everything. They've worked together for years. And so. Because of that. I was like. Okay. We can. We can forego the shot list. It. Makes me a little nervous. But you know. Let's see how we work together. And if it's an issue. On day one. Then we'll. Revert back. And tell him. We have to use the shot list. But. That ended up working pretty well. But yeah. I think storyboarding. You know. I think that was a thing in the past. I know that works for Ridley Scott. And that works for him for Alien. But that was what. 40. 30. 40 years ago.

[01:40:15] Sure. You know. Nowadays. With AI. I think. People are going to say. There's no excuse for you. Not to have a storyboard. Because AI can produce a storyboard. For you. Shot by shot. And probably. Can render it. 15 minutes. And I. I don't think people. Are going. I think a lot of people. Are going to go that route. I don't storyboard. Because if I'm the writer. I know exactly what I want to see. As the director. And I shoot for the edit.

[01:40:46] So. I know. I love that even more. You're. You just knew how to communicate it more naturally. So then as a result. You get more natural stuff. You can play around with. Instead of. I need this. Or nothing else. I'm like. Well. What if we can't get that? No. Right. You have to be able to adapt. I think. Adapting is key. If you can't adapt to things on the spot. And adapt and adapt and readapt. Then. Directing is not for you. Especially if you're going to pull up John Ford. And just rip a page out. Yeah. Saying we can't shoot that. Yeah. Time.

[01:41:16] Money. Yeah. Interest. Plot holes. They're opening up. We got to just. Take it out. I can't imagine. If you write something. And it's something important to you. I can't imagine not directing it. You know. As a writer director. I just. I can't see anyone else directing what I write now. Because I. You know. As good as a writer. As I think I may be. And hopefully is. As efficient with words. And as communicative. As possible.

[01:41:45] I still can't paint a perfect picture. In someone else's mind. Of what I have in my mind. But I can. Definitely articulate that. When we're in pre-production. And I can definitely articulate that. Once we're on set. Or on location. So. You know. And again. I know what I want to see. In the edit. I'm not saying I know what I want to see. On screen. I know what we have to get. So that my. Editor. Charlie Grishevsky. Can sit down and go. These shots don't add up. You know.

[01:42:15] I don't want to hear that. I want to hear. Yep. Charlie's going to say. Okay. We got this. Here's the wide. Here's the single. We're going to go to. We're going to go back to this wide. We're going to do this single. And this. Or. You know. I want second unit to go get this footage. Make sure it's a Dutch angle. Or. You know. Go get this drone shot. Or do whatever. But I want to make sure that you're on it long enough. Because. I need this to match with the sequence. That is about to happen. And I want to make sure Charlie's happy. So I shoot.

[01:42:45] That's the kind of framework in my head that I work with. Is that I. I shoot to make my editor happy. I don't know. There's. There are certain times. I would say he. You'd have to. He'd be a good person to talk to about. Film in general. Because he's. Also got a degree in filmmaking. But he is a genius when it comes to putting together a project. And his. Vision. Vision. Of. He knows story well. And then his vision is. Okay.

[01:43:15] I know that you wanted this. And I know what your vision is. And you didn't get this. But what if we did this instead. Or this. Or we. Use this. Other shot. And. Place it in here. And that. Can that still tell the story. That. Keeps the tension up. And is interesting. And I think. Working with Charlie. I will never work with anyone else. Like you. He really. He. He challenges me enough. When we're in the edit.

[01:43:45] For me to say. Yeah. This is. No. We're doing this because of this. This and this. And then he'll say. Well. But what if you did this? And we'll say no. Because then. Later on. This won't work. And this and this. Great. Back and forth. Back and forth. It's not hostile. It's not overthinking. It's not. It's collaborative. And to make sure that. Everything is. Voice out loud. And then you're like. Oh. But. And then you get. Then we got to do this. Okay. And then you two. Challenging each other. You get the best product that way. Right. Yeah. I don't want.

[01:44:14] I don't ever want to. Yeah. No. I don't want a yes person. Because if I get a yes person. Yeah. They're not going to double check. Then it's going to be. No. And you're going to be like. Well. I could have been better here. I want somebody. That's going to say. Well. Couldn't it be better this way. And maybe they're right. And then I go. Yeah. You're right. Let's do that. Or I say. No. Because of these reasons. And they go. Oh. That makes sense. So then. I don't. Then they're like. Oh. So then what I was thinking later. Wouldn't make sense either. So I think that's. But. In order to get to that point.

[01:44:44] You have to have. It all starts with the script. And the story. And you have to have that nailed down. So tightly. That. You know. I. Always tell. Everybody. Cast or crew. Once we get to shooting. There's no fidgeting with the script. Because. It is so tight. And I have made it so tight. That if we. Screw with this scene. And take this part out of the scene. It could collapse the entire storyline. All right. So I have nothing in the script.

[01:45:14] That is not necessary. Right. I don't have anything that's fluff. I don't have any. If we remove the jacket. From the chair on this scene. Then. Everything after it's not going to make sense. And that's how tight. I like to keep the script. And so. If we're shooting that. And we aren't able to get that. That's something that we'll have to do. In a reshoot. So I think. That's. Kind of my framework. Tight script. Shoot for the edit. And then. That allows.

[01:45:44] You know. I'm not precious with dialogue. You know. There are. Obviously. You try and stay away from. As much exposure as possible. But. That's why I'm not precious. With dialogue. Because if the actor. I expect the actor. To be able to do their job. And if they can do their job. And it's. You know. It comes out naturally. For them. That's far. But then. That's better than what I could have written. Oh. But see. At least that is. A way more. Authentic. Kind of problem solving. You know. Like.

[01:46:14] That's like. When you choose to vacuum. And say. You know what. This doesn't need a mop. Or this. I can just pick this up. Do that. But. Yeah. You know. This. The mess is done. Yeah. I like. So I like. As an actor. Coming from an acting standpoint. I like giving the actors. The ability to say. Here is your world. And there's nothing in that world. That you can't touch. Or manipulate. That is going to affect. Your scene. Right. And that goes back. To having the type being. The script being super tight. Because if you have just a bunch of stuff.

[01:46:44] In there. They grab something. Or they feel that. That they can utilize something. In their performance. Then. It affects the story. Then you're in trouble. But. I have it down. So that. You know. I want them. I mean. You have a beginning. Middle and end. Yeah. Well. That's what I'm saying. Like. You have to have. Everything fleshed out. If you don't have. If you leave anything. Open. To not. If your story is not fleshed out. One million percent. Yeah. And you're in trouble.

[01:47:14] And you can't allow your actors. The latitude. To act. And just saying. I don't know. When they ask a simple question. It's like. Well hold on. That. No. Right. You have to be able to. Yeah. You have to let them play. And you can't let them play. Unless you have the story. Down. Tell me a simple thing. Like. Yes. They did. Get abused by a parent growing up. Let's just imply that. Or. Hey. You know. They're not. In a relationship with this person. Because they. This is the first time they met this person. Okay. Perfect.

[01:47:43] So I'll play it that way. So it can't be misinterpreted. By an audience. Right. Because you'll see that too. On storylines that are deleted for time. Or just. They don't feel like it contributes anything. So let's just not. Let's take out that detail. And sometimes it works. Other times it's like. Like a little more. Clarification. That would have. Stopped. The paranoid. Viewer from. Adding stuff. Into the storyline. That wasn't actually there. You know. Right. Right. Yeah. Yep.

[01:48:13] We're playing with fire sometimes. And other times we're playing with nails. And shrapnel. Right. Right. Yeah. I think that. I was fortunate enough to have. You know. Is in. Works in investment management. For all the insurance. And so she's never acted before. So I had. You know. Right off the bat. Two child actors. You know. An adult who's never acted before.

[01:48:42] And is not an actor. And a dog. But on. Yeah. You know. On the other side. I had. Peter O'Mara. Who played. Red. The bad guy with the black hat. Right. Yes. He was. He's a phenomenal character actor. He was in Band of Brothers. Nightfall. Oh man. Resident. Resident Evil. Out of narrow. You know. He's Irish. Yeah. He's Irish. And he's. Just. Wonderful actor. Right. And he.

[01:49:12] Loved the script. He loved. You know. We. I didn't audition him. I was originally going to audition him. But we ended up talking. And I was like. No. He's the guy. Just based on our conversation. Over Zoom. And then. Brett and Courtney. They played. Mel and Donnie. They were. You know. She. Mel is his oldest. Del plays his oldest daughter. She's been in a ton of movies. I think she's. She's been in. She's been in a Robert De Niro movie.

[01:49:42] She's been in a. Dolph Lundgren. Jean-Claude Van Damme movie. But she's a great actor. And then Brett. Was actually the lead in a Call of Duty game. World War 2. Call of Duty game. There's some video game backstores. And that's what I like. Video games now. They do. Still hire motion capture people. Yes. Yeah. You got to get the performance. Right. So. And stunt people. Or effects guys. Yeah. Yeah. So. But. The key with all three of those. You know. They're all from L.A.

[01:50:15] Peter's from Ireland. But. They're all from L.A. They're all professional actors. They have. You know. They've been working for at least 10 years. But the key with them was. You know. Yeah. I know they can act. Like. That's why they're in the movie. But the key is. They're also wonderful people to be around. And. I knew. I only wanted really good people. To come and act around my children. It's an underrated skill set to have. It's just like. I need to know that you'll. Use appropriate language.

[01:50:45] And not. You know. Yeah. Well. And just be good people. Right. Yeah. I was on a TV show. Doing extra work. And one time. Word got around that. One of the PAs. Was basically looking for girlfriends. For one of the leads. And I was like. You know. When I look back at that. That was pretty lame. That should have been a. You guys go. And hang out at the bar afterwards. But that should not. Come into the workplace. So. No. I still. That's right. I still encounter people. Who want to talk religion or politics. And I'm like.

[01:51:14] Guys. You were on the clock right now. Yeah. Why are we. How did we get here? Because I'm. I'm stopping it now. I'm. I'm having this conversation. Jump off a cliff. Because this is not. Yeah. We got to be professional. Right. And that's. I think that's key. Part of being professional. Every day. I don't need another reason. To not like you. Well. Yeah. And. And. You know. At the end of the day too. You need to pull. Emotion from them. You need to allow them. To feel so comfortable. Yes. They can be vulnerable. Right.

[01:51:43] They have to be 1 million percent. Vulnerable. And you can't. You can't set. You can't have a set. Or a location. If you don't have professional people. There. That allows for that. Yeah. Having them. Come in. Then the. It's also interesting. Because the. We hit. We. Because we're shooting. During COVID. We had an issue. With. With just. Scheduling. Logistics. And then also. People getting sick. But. The. Woman that played. The sheriff. She was actually. Hired the day.

[01:52:14] Two days before. Her scenes. And then. The. We had a name. Actually. I'm not going to say what it is. But. Right. We had a name. Who's going to play the sheriff. And. The day. That they're supposed to get on the plane. In LA. And fly. To location. Their agent called. And said. Are you going to upgrade them to first class? And we said. Hey. We didn't. We don't have money for the ticket. We got them. Right. And in the. SAG contract.

[01:52:44] You know. They're like. Well SAG says you have to give them a first class ticket. And then. You know. And the SAG contract. For. Ultra low budget is. You know. Business class. You know. First class. If you. If available. If you can afford it. Right. Or if available. And. Not only were. There are no first class seats available. We. We couldn't have afforded it. If we wanted to. Right. If we could afford it. Absolutely. I put everybody in first class. But. You know. We had $55,000. So. The day. The day that they're supposed to leave. The agent said. Well.

[01:53:14] You can upgrade them first class. And our production office. Like. We checked. There's no available seats. So. We couldn't. If we. If we wanted to. And they said. Well. Then you're a violation of the agreement. And they're not coming. So. We had a day to cast that. Essentially. And we were fortunate enough. We have the Guthrie Theater. Here in the Twin Cities. I think. I think. So many. Acting teachers. And even directors. Will argue. Oh. You can't cast anyone too late. They won't understand the role. It's like. You know. If you take enough time with it.

[01:53:43] You can get very authentic stuff. You know. But. I think that's. If you have. A director that doesn't. You never know. You know. Sometimes it's sudden. And so. Therefore. The role should be sudden. Because the person is getting shot. Like. Surprised by someone in the scene. It's like. That can work. Yeah. I think you need a good. I think you need an experienced actor. To pull it off. Generally. Someone who doesn't overthink it. You know. Yeah. Or. Or I think you need someone that. The director that knows. That again. Knows the material so intimately. That.

[01:54:13] Rehears it. Yeah. You know. The. In fact. For our. The woman that played the wife. Again. We had somebody cast for that. And they. Had an illness in the family. And so. They pulled out. Two days before. They're. We're supposed to come. And so. We had to. It was on a. Like a Saturday or Sunday. Our AD. Nothing we can do. You know. Yeah. And then I saw our AD.

[01:54:43] And our. Producer. Had to. Scour all the local talent agencies. To look for somebody. Last minute. Last minute call. Yeah. And the. And the key for that too. We were restrained by the fact that. I. I needed a specific look. For the wife. For the. Yeah. Gore. Because she's the one that has the blood on half her face. And I needed to contrast a blue. With the red. It looks like you took all these challenges in stride though. So. Yeah. Well.

[01:55:12] Consider this a. Healing. Consider this a. Yeah. You've only encountered like nine different obstacles in your first feature. Yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah. We. Yeah. We were lucky. We cast. She was the first time. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. She was. Allison Crandall. Was a. A model. But she had never done acting before. And so. We went with her. And. She was.

[01:55:42] Smart enough to know her lines inside and out. And then. Like you said. We rehearsed. For. 20 minutes before her scene. In. And we didn't rehearse in her. You know. In a. We rehearsed on set. In the position. You know. Blocking her. We rehearsed while blocking. And so. She delivers this monologue. And she was. We. I think we did two takes. And we were. Maybe five. But.

[01:56:12] She was fantastic. And again. It had a lot to do with her attitude. Like she was. Super excited. She said she's never worked before. She's extremely cheery. And she's just. She's great to work with. She had a fantastic personality. No. She. In fact. I think she was like Miss America. Oh man. For our state. Like the Miss America. Already. Contested for our state. Challenge of. Walking and talking in front of. Right. Famous people. Exactly. Yeah. So she was. The. I don't think being on camera was an issue for her. But yeah. It was.

[01:56:41] You know. Working with. Kids. Is a blessing. That I think a lot of people. Talk about. Like never work with. With children or animals. But. You know. Working with kids. In general. At a certain age. At being so young. There's no acting involved. Right. You're just telling them. You're putting them in a situation. And then you're getting their reaction to it. Right. With my son. Um. You know. We did know. He was seven. So I did not expect him to read the script.

[01:57:11] And to memorize his lines. Yeah. And to understand. Like. Oh you say this. And then I say this. And then I react this way. And so I just fed him his lines. You know. Minutes before. Each scene. And. I. Just telling him. Like okay. This is going to happen. I'm. My character is going to say this. And then you say this. And then I'll say this. You got to do what you got to do. You know. Yeah. And he never. He never screwed up once. I was. I was shocked. Like not a single shot. And at the end of the production. Uh. We were at the wrap party.

[01:57:41] And someone asked. My son. Again. Seven. Did you like. Did you like making movies? He's like. Yeah. It was pretty fun. And they're like. Would you do it again? He said. Nah. He said. You know. Because it's. And they're like. Well why not? And he was like. Well. Because you do your scene. And then the adult screws up. And you have to do it over. And over. And over again. Because all I do is screw up. And it's just like. You know. That's true. Living Martin. Yeah. But you know. For a kid who didn't miss a single line. It was like. I guess. Did this experience ruin him?

[01:58:10] Because he was. You know. Dead on. But. Yeah. I don't know. I think we'll. We'll see in the sequel. But. Yeah. It was. I think. Brown contained specifically. Shooting with family. You know. Not once. Because I have such a. A strong. Wife. I never worried about. About the kids. Because I knew. That she had them. And then I knew. Just the crew that we had. Was phenomenal. And.

[01:58:41] They were wonderful around the kids. Right. There wasn't a single person. That I. For a second. If I was one single person. In caster crew. That. I had any hesitation for. That. They would have been here. But. That's great. Yeah. And then because of that environment. You're here to play. Professionally. You know. It's not. Yeah. Not the wildlife. We have to already make the illusion. That you're out in the snow. Right. Yeah. So it was. I mean. I think because of that energy on set. And because of the trust.

[01:59:11] And the. Like everyone was just so happy. You know. It was really a family affair. And you know. By that I don't just mean my family. But you know. Everyone became kind of like. Extended family. You brought work home. But you wanted to still stay a while longer. At this. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Below. Zero weather. I think our average temperature was 13 degrees. That. Had its. You know.

[01:59:41] Technical challenges. We had a DP that was aware of that. Had shot outside before. On that weather. And he knows that. You know. He only has to long before his fingers don't work. Because of their freezing. Or the lenses are going to fog. Or the battery is. You know. Going to be a tenth of what it normally is. Right. Right. So the battery life is depleted. But knowing all that. We were. You know. You prepare for it. And we were able to play really well.

[02:00:10] And you know. The cast and crew loved being outside. I think there were some moments where. Again. If you prepare for things. You know. The elements or whatever. We had warming wardrobe. Ready with like gigantic bear coats. We had. We had. Warming trucks when we needed it. But also. Shooting 40 different locations. For. One location. Was. Or sorry. One location for 40 different locations.

[02:00:40] All this trick in the book. Yeah. Right. We just. We were able. And we were always within. Like. You know. I'd say. At longest. We were maybe 25 yards from the house. Nice. So if anyone got cold. They could just go inside the house. I see. Right. That's how you do it. You know. Don't have overheating. Or. Cold weather. Just really. Just. You know. Get sick. While you're. You're doing. No. I think a single location. Is. Key.

[02:01:11] You know. Because. Again. With a. With a tiny budget like that. We had to make every second count. In every. Every shot count. But every. In everyday work. And because of. We had a fantastic. AD. Catherine. Atom. Who was hilarious. But. You know. So she was stern. But she wasn't like. I think a lot of ADs. Feel like they have to be drill sergeants. And I don't. I think that's further. Nothing could be further from the truth. And she was. She was stern. And kept the crew. On time.

[02:01:41] And on schedule. But she was able to wrap us in 14 days. On a 15 day shoot. And so. You know. Just having phenomenal. People working. To work with. I think. A lot of. Making a movie is tough. And if you can have. Really good people. Do it. There's. You know. I don't think there's. If you have anybody. That you're working with. You're like. I don't know. I don't know. They're going to be on the day. They're not the right fit. There's so much.

[02:02:11] That can go wrong. And love the wrong. Totally. It's just like. Hey. We know this field. We know there's no anthills. We know there's no other. Allergens in the air. Let's try here. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to be. I think that's the key to creativity. Is you use. In adaptation. And I think it was. Gosh. Who was it that said. It wasn't. It was either Orson Welles. Or Alfred Hitchcock. Who said that the key to creativity. Is obstacles.

[02:02:42] Yes. And there's a lot to be said to that. Right. Like if you're problem solving. And fixing stuff. You have to be creative. Right. Right. And that's really shocking your creativity. Into working overtime. And I think that's where you get hidden gems. That you wouldn't expect. No matter how much you. You know. You can write interesting things into the script. But on the days when you find like. Happens. Like just really happy. Great moments. That you can capture. Sure. But you have to.

[02:03:12] You have to be prepared to set. You know. You're setting yourself up for that. So. Anyhow. But yeah. That's. I think. Filmmaking is. Is. Is. An absolute. Making movies. Is a blessing. And. I. I. I can't describe. How much fun. It is. To do movies. Like I just. It is. I didn't think life could be this good. Like you know. I can't imagine doing anything else. Once I've done this.

[02:03:46] I mean. How about the fact that. You know. You. You're off to a strong start. You have people who you will continue to work with. Till the end of time. Yep. And so now this is. The template for what do you want to do next. Is there anything else that you have on. Your bucket list that really just. Feels true to your heart. It's just like. Oh this is getting. This is going. Going to be put in the can one way or another. I mean. Because you brought up so much. Tech and other stuff. Gotten past naysayers.

[02:04:15] You remind me of the time. I was using filmic pro. Around the same time. Soderbergh was popularizing. And I got. Yeah. So many. Geezers. For lack of a better word. Yeah. Yeah. Digital will never take over film. Like well. Yeah. Oh no. You can't control it. You can do either. But. You also shouldn't tell people. No. I think. Whatever works. Works. Right. For you. In that moment in time. You do the best with what you have. But. Bucket list wise. You know.

[02:04:44] We're shooting the prequel in January. Um. And I would hope. That we can roll. Into the sequel. It'd be nice to be able to roll in the sequel. That fall. 2027. Um. You know. But bucket list wise. Just getting my kids through school. There you go. That's a good. Yeah. Making. Making. Giving them the tools they need. So that once they get to college. They're good. Safe.

[02:05:14] Finding rules. You want to perfect. Uh. Yeah. I mean. I'll. I'll do anything right now. Um. You know. I'm. I want. I'm. At the. I was talking to my wife the other day. And. There's nothing. I. It would be. You know. Obviously. I'm. I'm not. I'm going to turn down things that are. Are not appropriate. But. Absolutely. If it's one you're like. I don't want to play this kind of serial killer. In this poorly developed script. I don't want to. Well. Yeah. But I.

[02:05:43] Take my shirt off for something that's just like. Very. Cheesy. You know. I was like. No. Thank you. No man. I'll take my shirt off for anything. Okay. No. I'm kidding. Um. Yeah. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No. You at least know your limits. And. Yeah. At least. Know enough of the lingo. I was like. Okay. This person's serious. Okay. This person has a vision. This movie will actually come out. Yes. So. For. For. You know. Anything professional. Um. I'm. I talked to my wife. And I'm. There's nothing I would turn down right now.

[02:06:12] Um. As long as it's somebody that I. I think is. Is. Somebody I'd like to work with. There is no role. I. You know. Again. Nothing that's. That's controversial. Or racist. Or whatever. But. Absolutely. No. Right. That's the other problem too. When someone is. Portraying a character. And is like. If the director's in on the joke or not. You know. Right. Yeah. Like. I need some.

[02:06:43] You know. This better be something like. You know. Obviously there's going to be. Movies where people keep taking out of context. It's like. Well that's on them. No. No one. Asked. Or thought in a million years. You could take. Something like the matrix. Or falling down out of context. Right. Right. Like. And. The person literally said. In the first scene. I'm pretty bad. But I think I'm right. It's like. Yes. That's what a villain does. They think they're right. When they're awful. And need to be. Arrested or killed. Right. Right. Yeah. No. So I think.

[02:07:13] Um. Yeah. I love to. Like. I love to work. Um. And I love acting. But the. Uh. I do have. There is a. Um. A drama that it was in. That I hope. Comes out soon. It was. Written. Directed by. Uh. Two women. Uh. It's called Isom. It. And it's about. Uh. You know. The. The shots are amazing.

[02:07:43] Um. The. Tone. You know. It's just. It's going to be a phenomenal film. And they're the lead actors in it. Uh. That's perfect. Sure. Yeah. And they're doing a story on. You know. Eating disorder for women. But. What I like about it is. That the story involves women that are over 40. So. I think. Eating disorders. Kind of. In. As far as Hollywood goes. Gets portrayed. As. Kind of like a younger person's disorder. Um. But. You know.

[02:08:14] This. I think. Absolutely focuses on. Like how. It's just something that. Some people live with forever. And so. Getting their unique. Um. I feel like their story is very unique. Uh. Excellent character study. Really well shot. Um. Yeah. I. I really look forward for that. To come out. And then. Um. Sweet. Yeah. And then I got cast in. Some. Uh. Something to do with. Uh. Superheroes. That. You know. I'm excited to.

[02:08:44] I don't know if I can say anything about it. But. Uh. So I'm not. But. Um. I'm really looking forward to that. So that. Uh. It'll be coming up. But. Outside of that. Uh. Yeah. I feel like. People right now. I love when people reach out to me. Uh. Through Instagram. Especially. Uh. Uh. Or TikTok. And they ask like. Hey. Would you. Be interested in this. Or would you mind talking about this. Or how did you do this. Or how did you do that. Or.

[02:09:14] You know. I noticed that you. Um. You produced this film. In this way. You know. How did you market it. Or whatever. That's great. That's a great. I love. Second opinion. Yes. I love. Yeah. People reaching out. I. You can't. I. I would. It would break my heart if someone's like. Oh. I don't want to bother him. Or I don't want to reach out to him. Um. Yeah. I'll absolutely respond to anybody that. That reached out to me. So. You can clearly read the room. And they can clearly read you somehow.

[02:09:44] So that's. That's great that you're. Getting less of the time wasters. And more of the actual. Hey. Uh. Here's a hands-on approach. What do you think of this? Right. If you don't mind me asking. Exactly. Exactly. So. Um. Yeah. Anything else you would like to promote. Or. Tease. Wait. I don't know. Just. Uh. We're releasing. So. You know. We've been. Because of all the support. And love. You know. I really. That. You know.

[02:10:14] Uncontained is. Isn't a. I think. A very. Different project. Because it. Involving. Involves everyone in my family. Right. So. Yeah. Very personal. And it. And I think for us as a family. It's a snapshot. Of what we did as a family. In that moment. Right. So when I watch Uncontained. Or my wife. Or my kids watch Uncontained. We look at it. And we go. Oh yeah. I remember when we were this. Or when. Remember when Jack was this small. Or remember when. Yeah. At this time he was doing this. So.

[02:10:44] There's a different dynamic to it. That is extremely. Personal and loving to us. But at the same time. Uh. I think. I think. I think. Because we had so much support. And people have connected it so well. It also. You know. We've been very fortunate. With people uplifting us. Or whatever. So. We're very. I don't know. It's just something about this project. That I hope. Continues in other projects. But I don't expect it. Um. We do really. We are releasing. Worldwide. Sweet.

[02:11:14] Probably this fall. We have. Black Mandala is doing our international distribution. So we'll be in theaters. In. You know. In. In the European territories. I'll follow the Insta. That's great. Thank you. And then. Uh. Yeah. Prequel. Prequel coming. You know. Coming soon. I don't know. When we'll officially announce it. Um. I probably shouldn't have said it just now. Anyhow. But. Whatever. And let me know. If you want me to edit that out. No. No. You can. You can. It'll be fine. Um. But thank you.

[02:11:44] Uh. No. Well. We're. You know. The. Right now. We're scheduled. Scheduled to shoot. The last week of. January. So. And then. Uh. Yeah. We'll see. I think. Uh. I think. It's been. Uh. It's been interesting. No one. I don't think anyone can. Can. Prepare you for. Um. Just the amount of love. Like. I think. As filmmakers. We expect. Not to succeed.

[02:12:13] I think that's much easier. And we. Negative prep. It's like. It's designed to stop us. Shield us from some of the wrongs. The world is like. Yeah. But. When we get too. Stoic. Like. Get too bottled up. Then. We don't appreciate. When someone gives a legit compliment. And it's like. I really need to honor that person. For even bothering. To do that. You know. Yes. Yeah. Like. I think. Be emotional. Yeah. It is. Right. Like. I think. I think. As filmmakers. We. Whether that's acting. Or. Or whatever.

[02:12:42] There's just so. It is such a hard. Almost impossible. Industry. that. You're. You've built up this. Facade. Or this armor. That you expect everything to be. You know. To not hit. And so. When you do. You kind of. Or someone like you just said. Gives you a compliment. You're like. Oh. Is that a. Are they being sarcastic? Or. You know. Like. Yeah. They meant it. I'm going to give you a hug back. Yeah. And you're like. What? So. You know. And to be honest. I think.

[02:13:13] People. Probably brush it off. With. A-list actors. Or even B-list actors. Or like. Oh. Whatever. They're so used to it. But it's like. It's not. They're not. I think there's a lot of. A lot of them that I know. You would. You would expect. They've heard it. A million times. By now. They've probably heard it. A million times. In a month. But you tell them. You pay them a compliment. And they're still the same. Like. Oh. No. No. No. I'm not. You know. That's just. Because. I think. That's the nature of. I think. Being beaten down. Through auditioning. You know. Getting. Or sinking.

[02:13:43] And landing a role. And then you get cut. Or. Right. You do. Do a movie. And it just never comes out. I've been on too many of those. Right. Now. I'm. I can say this. Avoid it. If it's a boyfriend and girlfriend. Who aren't very serious. And this is their first time. Doing a picture. You know. You'll learn instantly. They don't know what they're doing. And. They'll break up. Because they're like. Oh. It's not fun. It's like. Yeah. Doesn't happen on set all the time. So. No. But I.

[02:14:12] I don't know. Do you know the statistic? I think there's. I think it's like a crazy statistic. Of what films never. See completion. It's like 90 some percent. Isn't it? Have you. Are you familiar with that? Like. Actually not. But I would not. Discount it. Because. You know. Just. It. I look at it with some of these other towns. Where you're like. Where'd they go? And it's like. Well. They have a band in LA now. Or. They're now. Doing. Doing. A different gig. Yeah. Business. Internship in Seattle.

[02:14:42] Some of your favorite screenwriting. There's. They're still working. But I mean. Then you look at the blacklist. And how. Sometimes you're like. Why was it good enough for the blacklist? Like. I don't know. But it's like. Right. There's. Some of our best. Favorite. You know. Talents. You know. They're still working. It's just. There's nothing on the radar. Because it's a lot of behind the scenes. And there's a lot of. That. There happened to. It's like. When you. Are playing any kind of. Like. Funny army game. It's like. I took the hill. But I didn't plant the flag yet.

[02:15:12] I did. Yeah. Yeah. Well. And that's the scary thing. I think. We're in now. With our industry. To what you're saying. You know. We're. Productions down. Sixty some percent. Right. And you have. Really? Yeah. And you have. Academy award. You know. You have academy award winning. Writers. Hair and makeup. Wardrobe. You have. You know. A-list casting directors. That haven't. Worked in a year. Yeah. Right. That's a problem. You know.

[02:15:41] That's. For our industry. If we're going to survive. You know. We need to figure something out. And I. And I don't know. I don't know what that is. But. You know. We need to continue to make. It's a dialogue. I would like to see. Keep being open. Just like. You know. Don't. Yeah. Don't close the door shut. Just yet. We gotta. Yeah. Yep. Give us at least a decade more. Before we say. You know what. It's time to move on to a different. Yeah. No. Yeah. We need. I think. Now's the time. If I was.

[02:16:11] If I was going to. Like you said. If you're going to plant a flag. I think planting a flag. Would be. Now's the time for indie film. I don't care what genre you're making. Now's the time to go figure out. Like. Don't. Don't wait. I think a lot of people are like. Well. I only have. You know. A hundred thousand. In five years. It's like. You know. Yeah. You never know. Go make. Go make it. Like right now. Go make it. Figure out who you can connect with. And make sure you take care of your crew. Make sure they get paid. A lot of dramas now.

[02:16:41] Since I didn't. Continue doing some of the film projects. And I think that has been a better option. It's like. You know. Yes. More time. Just. Getting. The material down. Rewriting it. Instead of. Trying to figure out how it's filmed. How it looks. And then figure out. You know. Asking all these studios to. You know. Buy your content. And then. There's less. Asking permission to exist. Yes. Yeah. I think it's. Now's the time to go do.

[02:17:10] Whatever it is you want to do. That you've been. You know. Putting off. Or like waiting for the right moment. Now's the moment. Like. I think. We need. If we're going to carry on. This industry. This art. That after time. Like you do anything. It's like. Okay. Reacting to emails now. Okay. That's done. That took 10 minutes. That was all that we'll do. And then. Yeah. There's me buy sell. Time to go mow the lawn. Time to. Yeah. Go. Party for this friend. While. Yeah.

[02:17:41] Yeah. So. After this meeting. After buying groceries. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. Well. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. Great talking. And. It's just positivity man. But it was also just. Constructiveness. And it's. Amazing how many interviews. No one wants to be constructive. And it's like. You know. And that's not fair. There are many. Constructive. Shows. Even magazines. That do that. But it's like. Sometimes. Some of the best interviews are great.

[02:18:10] But they lead with a clickbait headline. So you don't look at them right away. It's like. They're out there. But they're having to play so many games. I'm glad you came to me. And I was like. Already. Halfway there. Seen this movie promoted. Let's. Let's do it. Let's. Yeah. We contained the uncontained. Hey. There you go. There you go. We are learning about what we still need to learn. And we're also licking our wounds. And we're having to also just. Never sit still for too long. And.

[02:18:40] Adapt to new terrain. New mountains to climb. It's. Right. Thank you so much dude. This was. Yeah. Thank you. Oh delight. Follow us on the web. On Facebook. Twitter. And Instagram. The podcast is available on. Podbean. Spotify. I heart radio. Anchor. Apple. And anywhere else. Podcasts are available. Feel free to review our show. And leave comments. On any of those sites.

[02:19:10] Thanks a million. For listening. It's a. Jack. Jack. Jack.