Heat (1995) & Heat 2 Book Sequel Overview

[00:00:00] This podcast is a production of Unfiltered Studios. If you would like to know more about joining Unfiltered Studios, please visit our website at unfpod.com for more information. What acting would you most like to work with? Well, I got to work with Marlon Brando and Georgie Scott and Robert De Niro. Right now, I mean I'd love to, I have an idea for a sequel to Heat. Here's my pitch.

[00:00:26] Do you remember Natalie Portman in it? Sure. Pacino's adopted daughter, so she comes home and says, Daddy, Daddy, I want you to meet my fiancee. And it's me because he's retired and I come to Chicago where he's retired back to and I'm going to torture him and then I'm going to kill him. So it's a mind game and then big parties. Great ideas. Michael Mann directed? I would like that. I can't get made without him, so I would especially like that.

[00:00:53] Did you love doing Heat? Yeah. Michael is just like an actor when he works. Every single detail is crucial and he loves being in the moment. So much so that sometimes he won't let the moment end. He's here. I can feel it. Now, assume they got our phones, assume they got our houses, assume they got us. Feel the Heat.

[00:01:32] Robert De Niro, Val Kilmer. This crew is good. Heat, rated R. Now playing at a theater near you. We missed. We loaded it. We edited it. Sometimes we get so deep into conversation that we have separate segments worthy of their own place in the sun.

[00:02:06] Reshuffled mini-episode. For me, the action is the juice. The action is the juice.

[00:02:37] What do you want here? Oh yeah. I've got my little lips on. So I can be even with De Niro when I talk to him. It is wild though how those two have mirrored each other. Even like if I take away Godfather 2 and their subsequent movies together, like they were almost always like on the exact same list. But I think they have different kinds of talents.

[00:03:00] Like Patino is better at just kind of like Christopher Walken, kind of just being an insecure guy who's very loud. While De Niro is kind of more moody, definitely does more playful things with his eyes and hands. You know, quiet, quiet. Yeah. Brooding. Strategic. I mean, there's a reason he's in the deer hunter and then he plays veteran turned, you know, antagonist vigilante, you know, and taxi driver. He is that essence.

[00:03:28] And again, I'm not here to talk shit. I get it. Every actor does this. Everybody from Harrison Ford to Walken to Sam Jackson, like everybody does more of what they do best. And then they do themselves playing basically a caricature of themselves. It's just depends on the movie and whether it's good or not, or what are their hearts in it. Robert De Niro plays the head of a crew of professional thieves in that scene from heat. And he's explaining to his partner played by Val Kilmer about how he allows himself no attachments in life.

[00:03:58] And one of the themes of heat, a fascinating three hour film by Michael Mann about the nature of cops and robbers, is the age old story of men torn between the intoxicating violence of their jobs and the sanity of their women. Michael Mann creates characters who are smart, verbal and articulate. And one of the pleasures of the movie is simply listening to them talk. That's especially true in the movie's best scene where Pacino and De Niro, who have never started a movie together before,

[00:04:25] stop chasing each other long enough to sit down over a cup of coffee and talk about their lives. It's a great scene. It's a very good movie. It's a very good movie. I think you left out one other element that's very good. And that is the how-to technical quality of the crime that's going on in the crime solving. Just like in Michael Mann's Thief, more than a decade ago with James Caan, he's very good. Obviously, Mann has spent a lot of time with criminals and with cops.

[00:04:52] And he talks about and shows us, in fact, the picture opens up with the creation of an incendiary device. And it's that kind of thing that keeps your eye... You know, we have been down the track of one more crime, one last theft. Yeah. There's a story device. But I think it's his high-tech quality that also keeps involved. Oh, I like the high-tech quality, although I question whether it's as accurate as you think it is. I think the heist... I don't know, but it seems like it. The heist that begins the movie seems a little bit more cinematic than realistic. That's not a complaint, but I don't really think this is a docudrama.

[00:05:22] Okay, we both like the picture. I know this, but it kind of explains his behavior. The background on his character, which wasn't mentioned in the movie, was that he was a recovering drug addict. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, yeah. Pacino, yes. Yeah. Oh, Pacino, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was wild.

[00:05:39] They filmed some scenes, and then man just felt, you know, after about the sixth, you know, rough cut, you know, he'd already had the sound effects guys, you know, order to them, hey, don't dub in gun sounds. Keep the raw sound, because we're using actual guns. Huh. You know, during that... Well, that was one of the first things I really noticed about the movie was the gunfire. Yeah.

[00:06:30] Yeah. I think... I'm trying to think it was Trainspotting. Yeah, Trainspotting was out that time. So basically, I was like in my like indie mood. I didn't want to see anything like mainstream, you know. Yeah. Fuck him. Anyway. I've always been a fan of Michael Mann, so... Yeah. Yeah, we all are. It's just interesting how... I think it's okay. Like, people love doing...

[00:06:55] At this point, this is where Oscars go into total snobbery mode, where they're like, oh, this movie's good. Why didn't it win awards? I'm like, it doesn't need to win awards to be considered good. Correct. And, yeah, the people were already fuming about how this and last of the Mohicans didn't win anything. It's like, that's okay. Well, Mohicans is... You'll be damned to find anyone who hates it.

[00:07:18] He, you know, it did get some detractors back in the day where many thought, hey, good performances, way too fucking long. I... This was a TNT staple for me. Now, I'm going to try not to spoil this too much. I don't know if there's different scenes in the TV edit or not, but maybe you guys can clarify for me. I could have sworn growing up for the longest time. I re-watched it on Netflix. It's basically the director's cut. Well, actually, no, it's not. It's just the current remaster.

[00:07:47] To get the director's cut, the Blu-ray just has a few less scenes of Pacino's hamminess. But I could have sworn that Chris, while Kilmer's character, got away at the airport, took out a fake ID, went up an escalator. I didn't see that anywhere on this re-watch. So I was like, maybe my mind is just misremembering. Well, I... He gets away. Right, right, right, right. But I recall a follow-up scene. Oh, you thought there was more to it? Okay.

[00:08:11] I just recalled there a follow-up at the airport, like once he's so sad that he can never go back to that illegal life and get his girlfriend. Well, he gets stopped by the cop outside his girlfriend's house. Right, right. But he gets away, yeah. Yeah, that was in there. Spoiler. For whatever reason, I just remembered a follow-up scene where while they're at the airport, he also is like getting away like on a plane to Miami or whatever under a different alias. Well, yeah, he kind of did. It just... They didn't make the film. Yeah, so...

[00:08:40] It was just basically his wife waving him away and that was it. Yeah, so for whatever reason, I had it in my mind. There was like a following scene of him going up an escalator into an airport. But I guess... So, I hate to break it to you guys. I have read the sequel. There's a book and now they're adapting it into a book. And I was kind of unimpressed. It's like both a prequel and a sequel. Like here's Pacino's, you know, Vince and Hannah before he becomes a sergeant of the Vice Squad.

[00:09:09] And then let's have Chris. He's getting away, but he's doing business with some traffickers. And I thought that I thought they had Hannah's character down pretty good, but I didn't care for how they rewrote Val Kilmer's character. Now, now, James, I think the reason this is one of his best movies is like this is the powerhouse year. This is when he does Ghost in the Darkness, Batman. And this is all in that same year.

[00:09:32] And apparently there are rumors that his character's marksmanship is shown at like military recruitment academies. Oh, wow. Because Andy McNabb of the real life Bravo for zero was one of the supervisors on this and saving private Ryan. So. I think that's why people like it.

[00:09:53] You believe why they're so good at predicting each other and calculating is that, yeah, Pacino used to be a Marine as well as it's implied size more and Kilmer and Dinero's all are in the original remaster before it's all darkened today. You used to be able to see when Pacino, when Dinero is getting out of bed, you saw a Marine, you know, skull symbol on his arm. But you can't see that now in the current remaster.

[00:10:21] Um, Oreo, welcome to the show. Mm hmm. So, uh, you, you love all kinds of twisted worlds and everything. Uh, where, where do you rank kind of some of Michael Mann's material? Like just compared to say, just all the others, uh, you know, Tarantino Scorsese, uh, Brian De Palma, like, what does he do that makes it his own voice? Let me do some research.

[00:10:48] Oh, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say he's, he's got a style. He's got a style and it flows through most of his movies that he does. Yeah. Very slow and brooding. Yeah. And David, David, I pretty much made my career of that with SWAT training day and straight Kings and that they both, all these guys love not just detailing Chicago, but L.A. But it is so wild bonkers to me for the longest time.

[00:11:16] I just never knew that he was loosely inspired by a true story. And the fact that they even had respect to not even put a base, you know, inspired by a real event on the marketing is also interesting. You know? Well, because he probably. Segwayed away from a lot of the true story. In some, in some respects. As usually happens. Yeah.

[00:11:40] And, and I, what I found interesting just recently was I found out this was actually originally written as a TV pilot for a TV series. Really? Yeah. And it was apparently a, a TV pilot called L.A. Takedown. Yeah. It was a pretty lousy NBC TV movie of the week. You can tell like man is basically having his Miami vice guys just, you know, get something quickly in the can. He hates the experience.

[00:12:08] They offer to have it go to series and man, actually, this is when he was playing hardball. You know, if he was anyone else, he would have sold it. And he just wanted to replace the actor. I think. Yeah, it was that. And he just didn't like how it turned out. So he sat on it. And then one day the main producer on this, I forget his name for Regency and Warner Brothers, just sees that script in one of his vaults and says, why have you never made this?

[00:12:34] And then after Michael Mann sleeps on it, he's just like, you're absolutely right. I need to remake this into a, you know, almost free hour epic. And yeah, I, it is so funny, though. I never know who's going to like this movie and who's going to be like, you know, cool action and cast. Don't care for the movie. I, I literally introduced this to my parents recently. I was just was coming at rewatching it for old time's sake. It blew me away.

[00:13:02] I was, I was definitely about to cry at the end. I'm a baby, but literally, I like how you can actually root for either one. It is that atmospheric, but it was just so wild. Like I had other people in my family admitting, yeah, you know, I probably wouldn't have seen it had you not seeked it out. It just sounded generic on paper, but it was actually pretty electrifying. And when Michael Mann was on the director's chair on El Rey Network with the talk show by Robert Rodriguez, I do love how they point out.

[00:13:32] How all the music just absolutely just stops during that climatic shootout. Like it goes dead silent. And it like all man is so good with music. Like he has picked it all out himself. He's not doing it just to be, you know, to bullshit. Like he's like, no, I want this movie track. And he actually asked, can you rescore that with a new symphony? Just so it was a little more fleshed out for this movie.

[00:14:01] Can I use this song by the edge and. And just they're really good with soundscapes. Well, Michael Mann, that's kind of his thing, especially with my advice. He was, you know. So. And JJ, I'll tell you this. Robert De Niro and Al Pacino. It's worth it for the diner scene alone. Yes. With them. It was a mixture of improv, but it was the right kind of improv. It wasn't just makeup lines.

[00:14:30] It's like he just wanted some actual like fueled, like heated discussions. And it's not over the top either. Right. Yeah. It's very natural, organic. And it is actually interesting. We see it on network TV versus on cut how they cut away some of the excess dialogue. But yeah, I just how that ends is like, brother, you are going down. But it is awesome.

[00:14:58] It's like, yeah, if we weren't on opposite in the law, we could actually probably have a drink. We'd probably go fishing. We'd probably play poker together. You know, we're sitting here, you and I like a couple of regular fellas. Yeah. Now you do. You do never see them in the same shot. Yeah. So rumor started that they actually filmed it separately. Yeah. But you know what? I think that Michael Mann confirmed that was false. Yeah.

[00:15:24] And I think that kind of got started because they're both in Godfather 2, but they're never in, obviously never in the same shot there because it's two different time periods. So I think that it's kind of like the Beatles. There was a rumor that George Harrison or George or Clapton plays guitar on Abbey Road. And it's the same thing. He played guitar on the White Album, but not on Abbey Road. And there's rumors starting and okay, that can't be that can't be John or George.

[00:15:52] That's gotta be Clapton playing the big guitar to finish on Abbey Road. It's the same kind of thing. These rumors start and then they they don't go away, you know? No, that's true. In your head, it doesn't go away, you know? And like I was saying on the setup earlier, it is interesting how this literally got blasted at the time. And I have film buff pals of mine who love, you know, everything. They love Godfather. They love some or if not all of Scarface, but like some of them are just like, I never

[00:16:21] cared for heat. It's just a measuring contest with two great performances. I'm like, really? Like, so for me, the essence of it, not only does Michael Mann once again work with West Studi, you know, Magwa and last of the Mohicans, it's cool seeing him be one of the LAPD guys, but Ted Levine's there. So there's another Hannibal Lecter connection. And then which is kind of funny because Michael Mann did man hunter. Yeah. Same thing is exactly that over silence of the lambs. Yeah.

[00:16:51] Ted Levine was the bad guy. First for one thing. Right. And sorry, go ahead. Oh, well, no, that's true. I think that's how he got. I think this is how Levine got the police captain role on Monk for sure. And it's cool seeing how he's like a rare kind of example of a guy who's both a detective and who has a CSI license. But the Foley work is good. The L.A. scapes feel earned. I do feel like I always got a Hans Gruber and Die Hard vibe from Neal McCauley, De Niro's

[00:17:20] character, just how he's very he's a mixture of street smart and his tacticalness. And but I just love it is like damned if you do damned if you don't. And it's just like I, I want the girl. Now, if I'm compromised, then I got to worry about myself, you know, and right. Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat. Yeah. And you can't break it.

[00:17:48] And I love how they actually have that realistic thing. She's like, well, my job does fucking suck. Maybe I do want to run away with this guy and go to a retire to an island. You know, well, that's weird by De Niro's relationship with Amy Brenneman, too. And I got to say, though, at the end of the movie, when she's sitting in the car at the airport and all this stuff is going on, just walk away. You know, it's obvious you're big. You're getting way over your head here.

[00:18:17] You know, this guy's bad news. Get out of there. It reminded me of Judd Hirsch or Judd. Oh, who's the Beverly Hills cop? Judd. Oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Judge Reinhold. When he's seeing Axel get in trouble, he's cased outside and it takes him forever to figure out he's in trouble. So, same thing with Amy in that. She's just sitting there in the car. All these people are the police and everything is showing up. It doesn't garner that he's causing this problem.

[00:18:46] You know, I have judges autograph. Yeah. Oh, cool. Oh, really? Nice. He'd be fun to me. But but but if you should have, there was so many red flags with De Niro's character on her. She should have just walked. She was an innocent. But it just reminded me of Judge in. So I think I think that's seen. I think that might be why some might not care for the movie. It does take its time getting there. So, yeah, unless you are just very used to I personally I was ready to go just because

[00:19:15] you open up with a chaotic robbery and all this new noir nuances as like I mean, I love how it opens up. You know, we we introduced that Pacino is a stepdad, you know, to a young Natalie Portman. She's just off Leon the professional. It's literally her second or third movie she ever made. And she's arguing with the mom about something. It doesn't matter what they're arguing about. But Pacino feels helpless. He's like, I'm good at crime solving, but I don't know how to, you know, do simple everyday

[00:19:44] things like tell mommy and daughter to calm down. So it it's a very interesting from an insecure thing. Well, the whole movie is about people's extent of commitment to whoever, you know, they bail on De Niro and, you know, in his daughter's commitment and his ex-wife's commitment or his wife's commitment. It's all about how far you're going to take this relationship before you check out. You know, there's a lot of that in the movie.

[00:20:14] Yeah, I agree. And it is also just kind of. It's just makes good use of its time, I think, personally, especially just McKelty Williamson. This is definitely what made me take him more seriously as an actor. That's that's Boba from Forrest Gump. And you lost some weight. He was a cop in that, too, wasn't he? Yeah. Yeah. But the whole great ass that was all improvised.

[00:20:42] And but you got your head all the way up, all the way up in it. But it's so funny when they cut back to them and they are smirking and like that's authentic. They did not know he was going to say that. And but I had fun rewatching it on rewatch because then I was putting in the pieces like, yeah, there's some tragedy that happens later in the movie. Oh, wait. Yeah. I always wondered. And there was a great interview recently with William Fichtner. I think it was I forget what show it was on. I was either Rosenbaum's podcast or something.

[00:21:10] And he talked about how this movie made him take everything so much more serious. You know, he'd already done a soap opera he didn't want to do for a few years. Then he'd done some other movies and like to add insult to injury. He's an extra, you know, playing a, you know, cop in Malcolm X and virtually told, hey, we don't need you.

[00:21:30] So then he's on lesser movies that earlier like virtuosity and finds how much can change the minute people just strip away your your role. So he's all about just trying to find other tricks to stand out regardless of what content is used. And like man tells him, go to De Niro's house and go start rehearsing. And so he is like, oh, fuck, I got to do a lot of work, you know, being this double crossing career criminal. And John Voight is excellent.

[00:22:00] And he is he is inspired by Eddie Bunker, the real life crack. Safe cracker. And but, James, you'll know this. So this is based off the actual life of Chuck Adamson, who was the police supervisor on a lot of Michael Mann's work. But you got you guys know him for creating. He not only wrote a bunch of Miami Vice, but he created he co-created Crime Story. I remember that show that Dennis Farina, you know, Prohibition era movie.

[00:22:29] Yeah, it's a year run. Yeah, pretty good show. I like how it's kind of been continually rediscovered because. People just still love Farina and all the other realistic, gritty cops and robbers movies and shows. But yeah, Adamson coincidentally was actually like I think he had it like a bit part and as like one of the dock loaders in Beverly Hills Cop. And because, again, he just would always just get his SAG cards just because he was doing some police consulting on all these movies and shows.

[00:22:58] And but yeah, basically, it was just part of his whole life. Just going after this real life career criminal Neil McCauley in the 70s and up in Chicago and that man decided, let's move it to L.A. Let's and much like James Cameron, you know, he's got the same stunt coordinator, second unit guy, Joel Kramer. So big, dedicated stunt teams, SWAT guys.

[00:23:26] Could you they do film over? I forget what holiday they filmed over, but they were able to successfully close down parts of downtown L.A. plazas, you know, for that climax. And. It's just a miracle, like they were actually able to film at L.A. X airport just unheard of nowadays in it. Like, it's so wild how they let them do that, like, because this was still post Unabomber era. So he's just like, man, they know exactly. Unabomber threats going on. Yeah. Filming of that. Yeah.

[00:23:56] And they they didn't have any worry. They're just like, we got a lethal force. We'll know if something bad happens. But it's like, Jesus. And I think just movies like this, T2, even Speed, just all do a good job of just. Even Die Hard, obviously, just like showing L.A. as a character, in my opinion, like, obviously, if you want throwback L.A., then you can go L.A. Confidential. But I just mean. Or Chinatown. Chinatown. Chinatown. Yeah.

[00:24:26] I mean, now I look at there are some other cool Amazon shows. Bosch is basically a modern day Chinatown with some Dog Day Afternoon action. And that's what I also liked about this. There were some like little small nods to other heist movies. Definitely some Dog Day Afternoon stuff with how you see the alarms going off and bank heist stuff. But yeah, it's just the music is well timed.

[00:24:52] It shows what's on the character mind, just like a good, just like a better episode of Miami Vice, in my opinion. And and that's what I was having to tell everyone. They're like, I kind of reminded Miami Vice. I'm like, it's by the creator. Did stuff like Dead Presidents and Point Break come out after this? Point Break was first in 91. That's a good callback. So that kind of. I am an FBI agent.

[00:25:18] And actually, actually, Val Kilmer got his part because Kino Reeves turned it down. Yeah. Believe it or not. He was going to be. He was going to be he was going to be Val Kilmer's Chris. And he decided I want to do a play, man. I know you're going to find it hard to believe he is Shakespearean trained. And that's why John DeBonte put up with his shit on speed. He's just like reading it back a bit. You're coming in a little too strong over the top. You're getting a little hammy.

[00:25:47] But yeah, Dead Presidents is the same year. And I love that one, too, because that's kind of Doug Day Afternoon meets Platoon. It's just let's have all these disgruntled, you know, guys in the hood. Yeah, you know, come back from Vietnam, all disgruntled and, you know, high on drugs. And let's let's have retirement money. Let's steal from a Federal Reserve. And I think this is it, too. Like just 90s had so many good heist movies. I mean, the same year as Die Hard with a Vengeance. But there's just so many other good movies that just show.

[00:26:17] I mean, Fargo's a year later, but it's like so many of them know how to use dark comedy. And don't you love how Danny Trejo is playing the driver? He's playing the wheel man. His name is Trejo. Yeah, I remember that. I called it. I didn't notice it's other credits. I didn't realize it was him. He had been in Runaway Train, which Eddie Bunker worked on. So there was a connection there. But this is like one of his more major ones. This is where this is kind of what gets him out of just being a guy who gets punched

[00:26:45] on an episode of TV or just in schlocky B movies like this makes him more mainstream before his cousin Robert Rodriguez does a lot of backup for him. Do you guys think Pacino overacts? I don't think he does. That's the knock on him. But I think whenever he's quote overacting, he's in control of it. I agree. It's definitely makes a point embellishes his acting with it. And I don't think it I always enjoy it. I agree.

[00:27:14] It before James goes to this, I think it's easy for today's snarky culture to kind of do that. It's kind of like people who hate on Star Wars or alien, but it's just because they've seen bad rip offs. It's like, don't don't blame the source material you've seen. But yes, I have seen movies that are good. I've seen movies that are bad that have Pacino overacting.

[00:27:36] I saw this movie he's coincidentally in with Anthony Hopkins that I thought was actually a pretty decent noir, but he just didn't have it in him. Well, that's when it was. Oh, God, it was pretty decent. Surprisingly, I got. A lot of classic big sleep vibes from it. 2016. Before I let you go on that next one, misconduct that that was an interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I liked it.

[00:28:03] I just thought near the end when they reveal, oh, I did bad. Just Pacino is just. He's seen better days. So but again, that's not fair. I'm talking you're talking about modern day Pacino, not 90s when he's still got the juice. It's like. So, yeah, no, go ahead, James. I'm just if you look at if you look at Pacino's evolution as an actor, he does panic in Needle Park. You know, such a good, sad movie.

[00:28:29] Yeah, it's the Godfather goes to, you know, Dog Day afternoon gets to. I'm trying to think what was between. Just was it? I was. Was it Starface or was it in the other one? You were just about ready. I'm talking 70s, 70s, 70s. He starts. And Justice for All is in there. And Justice for All he kind of he kind of he's been reserved in a couple like, you know, like lament. Let him go. Let him go.

[00:28:57] Ape shit on, you know, in my opinion, when we go ape shit and frigging injustice for all when he gets to, you know, and. We'll talk about those movies later. But I'm saying I'm saying that people say he was over at. You know, I said somebody said he was overacting in justice for all. No, he wasn't. I agree. Playing a guy who was up against the wall. And he had to. He had to be that situation. He when he has that that breakdown in the fucking courtroom. That's him. That's him. Basically just saying, you know, fuck it.

[00:29:25] I'll just I'll just not I'll just I'll tell you the truth about this guy. He's a scumbag and he does it in such a great way. Then when he does when he does, unfortunately, when he does cruising, which is a movie that almost buried him. You know, the movie is a great movie to watch. I think it's one of the best movies he's ever done. Well, and it's because he's out of his comfort zone. We'll return after these messages.

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[00:31:05] Do you ever find yourself thinking about who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman? Hi, I'm James Gavsey and on the Who Would Win Show, me and my co-host Ray ignore anything important happening in the outside world and debate fictional battles between characters from comics, movies, and video games. We got a new show every week, and almost always am I the winner. Yeah, not true, Ray. In the past, we've discussed such matches as Captain America vs. Darth Vader, Solid Snake vs. The Iron Giant,

[00:31:32] classic matchups like Robocop vs. Terminator, and even the Muppets vs. Sesame Street. That one was crazy. So if you're a fan of geek culture and love a spirited debate, check out the Who Would Win Show wherever you get your podcasts, or check us out at whowouldwinshow.com. When he got to Heat, to me, he's just coming off of Scent of a Woman, and I think Frankie and Johnny at that point. Yes. He's not overacting.

[00:32:01] Frankie and Johnny's probably his most relatable everyday role he does before. So I think that is it. Like, he can do the work. I think it's just easy to pile on him because he's been typecast as authority figures and cops like many Italians in Hollywood, unfortunately. While De Niro's kind of done more comedy, he got sick of doing the whole tough guy attitude after a while. So, but yes, it's unfair. And he did take a lot of chances in between Godfather and, you know.

[00:32:31] But I think the only comedy that you never attempted was, was it Author, Author? Well, yeah. Which my brother-in-law did the theme song for. I'm sorry, but yeah. Oh, he performed it on stage? His, no, his, my brother-in-law, Michael Franks wrote with Dave Grusin, Milk and Cookies, the theme song for that movie. Oh, I remember that. Fucking A, whoa! Yeah. That's cool.

[00:32:55] In fact, I remember I was here, I was about six years old, and my brother-in-law was like, yeah, I'm doing this soundtrack for this Al Pacino movie called Author, Author. And I was like, oh, yeah, it was like Al Pacino, wow. You know. Richard Belzer's in it. He's pretty watchable. It's, I don't care for the one racing movie he did. Bobby Deerfield? Yeah, it's kind of average, but he's good. It's just, I just felt let down.

[00:33:22] I'm like, he's given it his all, but not given him much character to work with. So, I think that's just it. Like, De Niro, I just feel, I just, I mean, I've seen people joke, and you guys can let me know if you agree with this or not. I don't completely agree with this, but I see what they mean where they, they're like, De Niro can do a lot of things. He can't cry. I'm like, well, that's just it. Like, he kind of just makes you feel like crying, even though he himself is not crying. Yeah. That's true. He's never really done a sad film.

[00:33:52] And, well, no, awakenings. That counts. Oh, I love that one. Yeah, that one's sad. So there you go. That slow dance with the, oh man. So I think he just has a different way of showing it rather than the everyday, you know. When he finds out about Joe Pesci's character in Goodfellas, he loses it in the phone booth. Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:12] That's a, well, and that's just that, he, he is definitely still in, he did this the same year as Casino, but he is definitely still in Goodfellas territory where if he didn't have those. I mean, I love how Pesci does all the threatening while he does the promises. Yeah, pretty much. And he kind of basically, yeah, he does that in heat while making him be an everyday guy like he doesn't. He doesn't come off as a menace.

[00:34:39] If you didn't know he was a criminal, you would just be like him, the guy in the fancy suit. No way. You know, he he's really good at blending in throughout the movie. And I think that is a testament to his ability, let alone the kind of wardrobe and how they stage him. But yeah, I don't I don't think he would have taken that role had he not already trusted, you know, because his character is basically doing the kind of antics in Main Streets minus the, you know, be a selfish dick.

[00:35:07] But he's still doing the, you know, you better not cross me one more time, you know, in Goodfellas. So it is an interesting mashup of his earlier stuff, while also kind of going back to the action packed De Niro we like seeing in deer hunter and tax. You know, it's. But yeah, I actually judge fantastic in this movie, like fantastic.

[00:35:28] Like she is not doing her usual what comes later, where it's just, you know, psycho thriller version, you know, or fugitive on the run, Judd. And. But yeah, she does a time to kill a year later, but I just it's just a testament. People love it because of the characters in this Dennis Haysburg. You get, you know, the voodoo guy from. Yeah. Major League. He's excellent in this. Morgan Freeman's brother.

[00:35:57] You know, another thing to bring up, too, is like the interaction of two different families in a way. Yes. You got De Niro and his group, which is kind of a family of its own. And then you got Robin. I said De Niro. And then you got Pacino and his group. Yes. Yes. Yes. And they answer to each other like. The movie is smarter than the average bear. Like Pacino is always just like, you know, if this was a Harrison Ford type movie or Arnold movie, I'm not talking shit.

[00:36:25] I'm just saying just what they're accustomed to do. You know, Arnold's got to throw a guy out a window and Harrison's got to, you know, get someone, you know, by the collar and say, listen to me. You know, Pacino is pretty much I'm done. You know, I love the scene where he's just talking to the rest of the surveillance team. He's like, so, you know, bon voyage, motherfucker. He is just like pissed. He's just like, but it's a more organic kind of anger. He's like, I'm not mad at you.

[00:36:51] I'm mad that I have had been up for 18 hours and I got a crash knowing that it was all in vain, you know? And. So, yeah, it's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's.

[00:37:22] It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's.

[00:37:52] It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. I think that it does go back to Sidney LeMay in a way, it does feel like a character stage play. Everybody got a moment in the sun is like, what would you be doing if you weren't catching

[00:38:21] criminals or robbing banks all day? You know that they all have a moment to just kind of be. I wouldn't say poetic, but just have a moment of truth. And yeah, but the actors definitely had all the right motivation, like going back to denis haisberg for a minute like uh i i was really digging this and when i was watching this with family they had a cool theory that i'm gonna pass by you guys you know the actor's done all kinds

[00:38:46] of great roles i mean he's god on lucifer for god's sakes you know he's in far from him uh but he was the president uh you know six years later but i love how in heat how uh uh you know he's at that crappy you know nine to five restaurant job and i i think i had a few other family members uh say this and i kind of am convinced uh donald's character he might he might be being taken

[00:39:15] advantage of by his parole officer well that's pretty obvious they don't even say it but you have to kind of infer that given the crappy hours he doesn't get to keep his tips he's getting he's making people and he's got to kick back some of that money to like the guy who hired five percent yeah yeah yeah it's it's a total so that's just it too like it does show it it opens up all these

[00:39:39] barriers like michael mann is so good at you know without glamorizing it and much like scorsese he is showing why you would go to the temptation in the first place you know it's like yeah if not these guys you know when you're out of prison if you got that big a rap sheet you're not gonna get a decent job unless you got a very forgiving employer but and you're gonna have just as corruptible people trying to screw you over oh yeah i trust me when i was doing valet and all kinds

[00:40:08] of other jobs guys growing up i i was just beside myself i'm like what did i do wrong i i'm not saying that by no way am i putting myself as an actual victim you know like i am not anywhere near that level of being misinformed or being taken advantage of but yeah well hopefully never but i i just mean i'm just doing a disclaimer it's just i was one of those where i was just like

[00:40:34] hey we like to blame ourselves when a job doesn't work out you know why was someone such a dick to me is like it didn't have anything to do with you it had everything to do with them so yeah this does kind of bring up just it just shows all the different levels and when you watch it initially you're kind of thinking oh dear you know lieutenant hannah's got to deal with family melodrama but it's a good showing i think it does pretty well like what we see on a typical

[00:41:03] other movies and shows now is like he's not able to have much of a life he really is still in love with uh his wife but he doesn't you know he's struggling to make time for her let alone for any sleep you know he's well and that's the thing between all both characters is the job is the life the job is the life and so if they were to update it they all you would have to literally do is just

[00:41:30] update it with iphones you know just take out the pagers digitally and add the phones but yeah i i mean i do love how i i actually caught it on this time around and it was actually a nice a nice scene before all the other stuff that we remember i love how he just is having that moment to kind of just gloat while he's drinking downing a bunch of coffee who knows how many rounds he's like just in his kitchen i'm just gonna spend these next 10 minutes with what little time i have before

[00:41:59] going to the office just gonna enjoy a nice coffee so the silent moments speak as much truth even the nothing roles were well performed like henry rollins is actually really good as william fichtner's uh bodyguard then you got hank azaria and jeremy piven in there too that's like wow yeah i've forgotten they were in there piven is a blink and a miss as the right as the uh surgeon

[00:42:23] and it is so funny he's like uh denaro totally pulls a terminator give me your suit give me your watch and the bad guy from manhunter was also had a small part in tom noonan yeah he gives oh wow so going to james's earlier point that man is like many a good filmmaker he is loyal to his actors and crew he will reuse you as many times as he can and give you a juicy role and

[00:42:49] judd atapal too yep judd apatow will do that uh but yeah tom tom noonan was juicy like this was the only thing i literally knew him outside of manhunter and robocop 2 i was like oh the guy giving him all the blueprints and he's got a very you know older beard and everything yeah it's pretty nice but uh zonder berkeley he's good as the uh uh boyfriend of pacino's ex-wife you know he's and i just love

[00:43:17] who was the guy that played that dick that they didn't like that they were going after wainwright who who is oh wayne grove so you know right this is definitely what i know kevin gage the most from you've seen him be the detective in strange land you've seen him uh be in a bunch of other b movies but you probably what else you would know him from is he's one of the other hot shot uh marines and gi jane and okay but this is probably his best known role you've seen him in

[00:43:46] other stuff but yeah for the most part he's kind of just mr b movie guy um don't you love though when and pacino's hannah meets up and we'll probably wrap this up soon but i i love how he just he gets a he gets a criminal informant played by ricky harris and his tone look and i just love how he sits down i was like brother you are wasting my time yeah thanks for the drink i'm getting the fuck out of

[00:44:13] here unless you got something to share in the next five minutes uh but it was interesting watching this time around i was like yeah the one uh there's some cool stuntman who you've seen in different movies doing the other kind of shootouts and everything even gerald ford's son steven plays an officer um that was him okay yeah some of the credits yeah yeah does he walk into a door

[00:44:42] no he does not he just runs around like a wimp uh but uh yeah i'm in east grand rapids this is ford country here oh uh this time around a long time ago and a long in a galaxy far away um this time around i was i actually noticed something i never noticed before i was like yeah i always thought schwartz played by b movie roger corman favorite jerry trimble got shot by the bus stop he's actually

[00:45:09] survives because then you see him later on he's got the cast it's like oh oh he was shot at by vol kilmer non-lethal a you know chris is i didn't put that together but yeah he's this is literally the only mainstream movie he has been in the rest have been alien and blood sport and diehard knockoffs for roger corman live by the fist one man army king of the kickboxers that terminator woman i'm not

[00:45:38] making this up this is as mainstream as he ever got was in a fucking michael man movie he did not get to use his martial arts but he looked pretty cool being in all the different uh police raids with with the other free oh but yeah i could go on all day just because the cast really is dynamite

[00:46:02] yeah but this is where uh deniro actually became best friends with sizemore and he was always having to help him out financially or uh be kind of a consultant to him at rehab um john voight is excellent i love how he just kind of just he's just like the life is the life this is all you know dishonest he was a business manager basically but yeah he's the go between

[00:46:29] you know he's like personally i think this deals a lot of load of crap but if you want to take it i can make it happen you know and it's actually so funny seeing him on ray donovan because at one point in one of the final seasons they're actually just doing they're faking steven bowers character's death and one of them lets out this sounds like the opening of a michael mann movie

[00:46:52] it was like perfect fucking perfect another la downtown movie um but yeah what studio is excellent here i just love how he got a moment to kind of be able to get some action knee rolls before going back and doing some other awesome navajo period pieces um i just like how he's just like he's trying to feed pacino's you know hannah a bunch of info and and hannah's like you know ain't wrong answer

[00:47:20] i do not want to hear that right now give me something else give me all you got have we tracked anybody now can we is there anybody we can track is there anybody yeah so i was thinking too that pacino's kind of the sunny crockett of this that he really is if don johnson was a bigger dick yeah but it also really does change how you see cops and robbers movies

[00:47:49] like from this point on like just everything like this is definitely one of the first movies where you see them going in and you're hearing all the uh police radios you know and just all going off so like this is no different than when you see an awesome above average episode of svu or another training day type movie and but yeah i think it's definitely a mixture of crockett and and justice

[00:48:14] for all is that kind of earnest as opposed to i'm macho you know just right uh but it holds up still it really is a lot of fun i might introduce it to my brother who likes a good heist movie like oceans 11 so yeah it's not paramount plus for free right now all right and that's you know in the the gun battle the bank robbery gun battle was probably the most at that time the best i'd ever seen for that

[00:48:43] kind of uh competition and that inspired uh the marines how to reload a weapon yep and that makes me think about uh her navy seals my bad the gunfire and everything that you heard in saving private ryan it was pretty realistic as well yeah they actually used real explosions on that beach i just watched the watch i didn't know oh that's right yeah same kind of deal like this this is one of the last few

[00:49:10] movies much like james cameron where studios allow him to basically be filming for like 48 hours plus you know on three hours of sleep you know so uh you know good stuff comes out of it and later you know they rearrange find different methods to do some of what the same things they want differently but yeah i mean there's free key shootouts in here a fourth if you want to count the you know

[00:49:36] uh on foot pursuit at the end but there's more to it than just looking forward to those highlights and i would see some people should talk especially on youtube oh only good part of the movie i'm like shut up as long as the movie is it kept me captivated through the whole thing yeah well we've we've also seen after seeing years of movies before this as well as movies that did it poorly you know i do feel

[00:50:02] like so many movies want to rip off cape fear seven or even silence the lambs and unfortunately you're now even dark knight and it's like you're only as good as how well the role is and how what are the actors are actually trying to play off each other and that's just it they're not hogging each other's shit they're not trying to one-up each other they can't they're not in too many of the same scenes

[00:50:26] together well there's that too but like even when neil's talking to his crew and hannah's talking to his crew like they're all it's kind of like a good episode of any you know western or even our all our favorite space offers like everybody got their moment in the sun it's like yeah pretty much we know what charito wants like he could have gone away uh tom sizable but he said i am loyal to you

[00:50:50] you got me to serve less time i i'll do this for free yeah and you might need a wheel man if trejo can't make it you know and so i i was telling james about this earlier don't you guys like how at the end it becomes a fugitive and a revenge movie like in that last part instead of just what's the last heist we're gonna do yeah and i've seen some other critics note that michael mann clearly loves hong

[00:51:20] kong cinema because there are some similar kind of scenes that you would probably see in something like the killer or hard-boiled just similar kind of glistening stuff of you know and they got all the the airport scene of them hunting each other down at the end is uh very it kind of made me think of hong kong in a way it definitely does not hold be smarter than the average bear be use your

[00:51:44] surroundings and and that's it well yeah the art of war yeah and the character that tries to set them up at the drive-in theater and you know giving them the fake money or whatever oh van zant yeah banker isn't that the same actor that's in the dark knight bank yes he plays a banker that's right because the big dark knight starts out with a bank i see and there yeah

[00:52:14] sugar happy blank okay it was okay it was the same guy cool oh yeah i mean this is he plays a similar role on the prison break franchise and uh basically a crooked special federal agent who well he looks like somebody you can't trust yeah no that's just it and so it's so funny when i see him in a good guy role or playing a

[00:52:39] dad he just never expected from him because he just know he finds ways to make himself not look creepy or not look uh perplexed he'll he'll he's just uh he's he's a bit of a chameleon when you actually give him a chance so i think that's well he played a handicapped guy on that series mom oh that's right yeah yeah that that was wild too like we would look at him he's like is this serious guy doing

[00:53:07] comedy now well he's good at it in fact he tried i mean he did things like what's that movie called with danny devito's saving mona or something like that drowning mona drowning oh that's right i don't remember that but i don't remember anything about it oh it's i remember the yugos it's a pretty wacky dark comedy you can find on tv but yeah and so again just a lot of people have

[00:53:33] moments to shine but there is a lot to play around with in that sandbox instead of just say the lines atyfically it's it's not like a lesser aaron sorkin movie where you're like slow down you're saying it too abnormally people don't talk that fast you know it's i say that as a fan of sorkin but i'm saying like like kank is area he could have easily handed up being given his comedic background but he's playing it straight like oh i should have never trizzled that lying bitch it's so funny

[00:54:01] it's a little comedy with this character but just a little comedy yeah it's just enough it's just it's just he's the butt of the joke you know but it's so funny i never noticed him at the start so it's so funny when i put all those two either oh that is him yeah oh oh it's going downhill uh we climbed up the mountain and so well he's telling the cops heck with her now you know

[00:54:30] you better like her you know yeah so currently adam driver is attached to play young neil mccauley i'm okay with that austin butler is also attached pacino might is rumored to be playing an older version of himself i'm not keen on the casting of leo dicaprio and christian bell because that just feels like it's catering to what audiences want to see instead of wasn't there a movie that uh had

[00:54:59] de niro or uh maybe even pacino or both kind of righteous kill or something like yeah we're gonna get to those uh so let's finish up the heat to discussion and i'll i'll list off these other pacino and de niro movies uh any final closing thoughts it was cold not even hot oh can you hear the cold around the corner cough cough i have the covid

[00:55:28] uh care oh ouch no i'm kidding i don't care fuck that for now yeah i i saw it in the heat in the theater i don't think i've seen it maybe once since and revisiting it there's a lot a lot going on it's it's really well i haven't seen it in a while but i'm definitely wanting to go see it again or i'm gonna go i'm see it again i would love it if it's reputation i would actually request your theater to bring it in you just have to pay the

[00:55:56] money for it i would love to see it in a film studies or theater class that would be epic in fact let's do that if we ever meet up with james we're gonna just i'm gonna bring that blu-ray we're gonna just blow your speakers out but yeah my theater offers um what is it the last i checked you can rent a theater with 20 people for a hundred a hundred bucks

[00:56:20] or 150 well that's fine i'll uh i'll end it i'll end it with i do what i do best i take scores you do what you do best you try to stop guys like me yeah but then you you choose the movie that they screen yeah definitely well i can i can mike i can feel the movie right around the corner um you didn't have a plane in the background mike oh i know i know

[00:56:51] i get but yeah but but but that that i'm distracting enough i love well i and the edge just that uh uh tracer i think is the name of that one song uses oh yeah yeah just and you fit it might as well be bullets ricocheting like it just creates even more on easiness like it really is a good music it's not cheesy synth wave or anything

[00:57:19] but there's some low electronic cues yeah it just kind of it just shows kind of just how all the sound is one giant medium so that's just that like the style really does serve the movie instead of that's all it has to show and it's just you know it's not a dull slog that's for sure um you know i'm glad they didn't do in this movie is have some pacino get called into the his boss's office and say what's going on with what's taking so long with this case that's the

[00:57:48] standard you're messing up the you know the underdog cop thing where there wasn't really about that it wasn't a buddy cop movie yes although you gotta say i could see if this was a lesser movie pacino just like knocking out his boss and then handcuffing him like in his office and just lock the door inside and say don't shut up let me catch this guy for 48 more hours yeah you're off this case i'm assigning to so-and-so and then he i could see nick nolte coming in being

[00:58:17] an internal affairs guy saying you're you're up to your roster i'm drunk i'm drunk you were right that that would have actually been okay it just it would have had to be really fleshed out like hey uh hannah you i still gotta see you for a hearing today revolt you know involved that's the estate like this does go back to adam 12 you'll be glad to know james is like a righteous cop like

[00:58:43] he doesn't do shitty arrests he does all the homework making sure everything's ready to go you know and he fortunately a lot of his stuff is you know robbery homicide so this definitely what you see now on a typical episode of something like tnt is the closer there's even episodes of resilient isles where similar kind of cues just when people are shooting in the distance like outside in

[00:59:07] the streets you do get a heat out or collateral element where it's like echoes and you don't know where they're coming from and everyone's just you know ducking and covering like you any wise person would do but yeah if this was a lesser movie you could definitely it's they would have probably had it be if it was walter hill production you definitely would have had yeah you made a bad arrest you got to come answer no gotta catch one more guy before i come in you know well cam when you said nick

[00:59:34] nolte's coming in i was just imagine seeing with nolte coming in tough but you don't you're done you're done you're done it'd be even funnier if eddie murphy was like his partner hey hey hey hey shut up brother shut up no i think i like the nolte better in extreme prejudice than i did 48 hours yeah that's a good point he's not he's just a dick as opposed to a racist dick

[01:00:06] well they kind of do it that's 80s mellowing of his racism in that movie but no absolutely not very much though well i i just do find it interesting though how like all these elements do kind of go back to some of the grit of a buddy genre film it's just it's how well you do it as opposed to oh god you're just ripping off better scenes from you know my bd blue or super co you

[01:00:32] know it's like you got to really layer it instead of oh what next you know at the shield definitely plays into similar stuff in terms of when crime uh crime criminal exchanges are going down uh breaking bad definitely owes a lot to stuff like this i think just it's especially much like sopranos like i have seen same thing people who like stuff like heat or

[01:00:57] training day but they're generally don't care for cops or gangster movies so it it is a rarity where people see a face to the genre instead of just see it done poorly and assume that's how other installments of that are like a rarity in the jungle yeah it doesn't stand out on its own heat

[01:01:19] totally totally it's not your typical cop film or you know that cops and robbers movie even though it's not the og but it's not amateur outrider

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