Big Boss Week: The Best Villains on BABYLON 5 Special (with Downbelow's Will Johnson)

[00:00:00] I was there.

[00:00:01] I was there.

[00:00:02] At the dawn of the third age.

[00:00:05] This is an Interstellar News Network special report.

[00:00:09] Two years after winning the Shadow War, Captain John Sheridan,

[00:00:13] president of the Interstellar Alliance,

[00:00:15] is leaving Babylon 5 for what many expect to be the last time.

[00:00:20] I don't need an Interstellar Alliance. You're my universe, Dylan.

[00:00:23] I love you.

[00:00:25] A friend of mine once said,

[00:00:27] The future is all around us,

[00:00:29] waiting in moments of transition to be born in moments of revelation.

[00:00:34] This is just such a moment.

[00:00:37] Fire this baby up.

[00:00:39] Oh, something's wrong.

[00:00:41] What kind of energy does this facility use?

[00:00:44] Tachyons?

[00:00:45] Oh crap.

[00:00:48] Where the hell am I?

[00:00:51] He has unstuck in time.

[00:00:53] Moving between timelines.

[00:00:56] University realities.

[00:01:00] The longer you stay out of your own timeline,

[00:01:02] the more you'll start sliding into parallel worlds.

[00:01:04] So how do I fix it?

[00:01:06] You have to get back to Babylon 5.

[00:01:12] Losing the Shadow War wasn't your fault.

[00:01:14] Wait, we lost the war?

[00:01:16] On the positive side.

[00:01:18] At least we have a good view of the show, eh, Shadow Dunn?

[00:01:21] This is Babylon 5. We are under attack.

[00:01:24] Do you know what a last stand is?

[00:01:26] You just joined one.

[00:01:27] Activate Destruct Sequence.

[00:01:29] Destruct Sequence? Are you feeling alright?

[00:01:32] This isn't just one of those I'm having a bad day things.

[00:01:35] I am totally in a mood to blow some stuff up.

[00:01:39] Everything ends. I'm not afraid.

[00:01:41] Bring it.

[00:01:42] John?

[00:01:43] Stay back!

[00:01:45] What's happening again?

[00:01:47] I'm coming unstuck in time.

[00:01:52] Zathrus, why?

[00:01:54] No one listens to Zathrus.

[00:01:58] You look like someone in need of a friend.

[00:02:01] Friend.

[00:02:11] It's a Jactum Review Show.

[00:02:50] I'm out of here.

[00:02:52] Yeah, we're out of here.

[00:02:54] I always want to say at work when I get that recording in

[00:02:57] progress message.

[00:02:59] I'm out of here.

[00:03:01] I thought you were recording Sheridan.

[00:03:03] Oh, man.

[00:03:05] So been a minute.

[00:03:09] We got Will Johnson back from the Down Below podcast.

[00:03:12] Hello, hello.

[00:03:14] We promise we'll have you on some other movie, TV and music chats,

[00:03:17] but it's just so much fun to kind of just see how with the

[00:03:20] new animated movie by Warner Brothers Animation,

[00:03:23] how people just still kind of like stand up and go,

[00:03:27] me, me, me. I'm a fan.

[00:03:29] It's like where you been?

[00:03:31] I know.

[00:03:32] In the past year, one of my friends has started watching the

[00:03:35] show.

[00:03:37] Not a close friend, so it wasn't like I was in his ear saying,

[00:03:40] watch this.

[00:03:41] He just kind of picked it up on his own and he just fell in

[00:03:44] love with the show.

[00:03:46] And he's always posting like B5 memes and stuff like that.

[00:03:49] On Facebook.

[00:03:50] So people finding the show.

[00:03:52] All the time.

[00:03:54] And.

[00:03:57] It is funny how anything goes in waves.

[00:03:59] Some people are comfortable with other stuff while other people

[00:04:02] kind of want.

[00:04:03] A little more closure.

[00:04:05] Yeah.

[00:04:07] So I just figured, hey, it was a good time to, you know,

[00:04:10] let you back on to kind of talk about your favorite movie

[00:04:13] or something like that.

[00:04:14] Yeah.

[00:04:16] Yeah.

[00:04:18] It's like there's so many, so much to choose from.

[00:04:22] Yeah. Well.

[00:04:25] There's so many. Yeah.

[00:04:26] So many good moments from.

[00:04:31] Yeah, but so that's right.

[00:04:32] I was trying to go by memory because I haven't, when I'm not

[00:04:35] one of the,

[00:04:36] I love this show,

[00:04:37] but I know a lot of people watch it.

[00:04:39] I don't know if you've seen it before.

[00:04:41] I've seen it before.

[00:04:42] I've seen it before.

[00:04:43] I've seen it before.

[00:04:44] I've seen it before.

[00:04:45] I've seen it before.

[00:04:46] I've seen it before.

[00:04:47] I've seen it before.

[00:04:48] When I'm not one of the, I love this show,

[00:04:50] but I know a lot of people watch it every year.

[00:04:52] Yeah.

[00:04:53] I have so many unwatched shows.

[00:04:55] It would be hard for me to justify watching.

[00:04:57] Hey, you know, five season show every year, but.

[00:05:00] Same.

[00:05:01] I'm like, I so badly want to secretly go back and look at

[00:05:05] anything from deadwood to 24.

[00:05:07] And like, I am not going to have time with for anything else.

[00:05:10] But I'm not going to have time with for anything else.

[00:05:12] I'm not going to have time with for anything else.

[00:05:14] But it was just jumping in some of the top moments.

[00:05:18] Sure. Yeah.

[00:05:19] What if I were, if I were, you know, a good podcast,

[00:05:23] or I would have gone and tried to get the episodes of these

[00:05:27] were in, but I didn't do that.

[00:05:35] One of my favorite moments was Dylan's.

[00:05:38] If you want to live the elsewhere speech where she's just being a

[00:05:42] badass and taking on the earth.

[00:05:46] Government.

[00:05:48] Yep.

[00:05:49] Kind of by herself.

[00:05:51] Cause.

[00:05:54] So there's some, there's some really good speeches on some really

[00:05:58] good, especially from like Sheridan and Dylan.

[00:06:02] Absolutely.

[00:06:03] It gets you literally propped up for battle.

[00:06:08] Yeah.

[00:06:09] You're almost kind of disappointed that they ran and she didn't get to

[00:06:13] like, just blow the hell out of them.

[00:06:16] Yep.

[00:06:17] You get, you fill that eggs now that the actors are finally really

[00:06:21] in the mode.

[00:06:22] And you're just filling every verbal slap in a way.

[00:06:27] I think that was some time during season four, I believe.

[00:06:34] So yeah, it's been building up and building up.

[00:06:37] Yeah, totally.

[00:06:38] I'm, I especially love it when they're pretty much just making a

[00:06:45] final stand against earth.

[00:06:47] And they got.

[00:06:49] Jinkins.

[00:06:50] Can jinkins from scrubs as the captain Trevor Hall and he's

[00:06:54] pretty much like, Hey, I've heard every word I am going to

[00:06:57] take all of you guys down and just all the rotating shots as

[00:07:00] they're showing areas of the ship that make up, make it bigger

[00:07:04] than it is, you know, also just applaud just anytime.

[00:07:15] Any of the shadows guys are coming out and they're pretty much

[00:07:19] just dropping hints about what is to come.

[00:07:23] Yeah.

[00:07:26] Yeah.

[00:07:27] Going back and rewatching you see that they're dropping hints

[00:07:30] like so early on.

[00:07:34] I heard of today.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:39] It's kind of in one way I like that a lot of modern shows have

[00:07:47] fewer episodes, but there's also the fact that they don't

[00:07:51] have as much time to set up and pay off everything.

[00:07:57] They got to take their time, but now we don't even have

[00:08:01] any time anymore.

[00:08:03] So when we talked about, you know, six episodes to tell

[00:08:06] a story, there you go.

[00:08:12] Wow.

[00:08:13] And I just animation was just great for this new animation

[00:08:18] movie because, you know, even if you're unimpressed by it,

[00:08:21] I just, I think there's going to be more to come from that.

[00:08:24] If the cells are successful and I, I just think it's the

[00:08:28] best way to go since most of the cast is unfortunately

[00:08:31] passed and did you see any of the, I was able to get

[00:08:35] Blu-ray real earlier from a eBay seller to do, see any

[00:08:39] special features?

[00:08:41] I've not had a chance to watch the special features, but

[00:08:45] I just remember thinking like, well, this is so genius.

[00:08:51] Like why?

[00:08:53] Why have they come up?

[00:08:55] Well, because they, you know, they weren't doing anything

[00:08:58] with Babylon 5.

[00:08:59] But the fact that so many actors are going this really

[00:09:03] solves that problem because you can tell story in any

[00:09:07] era and recasting a voice is not as jarring as

[00:09:13] recasting and, you know, live action actor, you know.

[00:09:19] Oh, and I applied the voice actors themselves there's

[00:09:22] like, yeah, we pretty much are like, we, we, we are

[00:09:27] imitating the actors because we're not going to be

[00:09:32] able to, you know, we're doing this for them to make them

[00:09:37] proud of their work.

[00:09:39] Yeah.

[00:09:43] It's just one of those things that I just remember being so

[00:09:46] excited because there was a thing she kind of think

[00:09:48] whenever happens, oh, we can get all the speculation

[00:09:52] that we need to tell a story about this event that

[00:09:57] basically working around fans were kind of working

[00:10:00] around the limitations because of certain actors being

[00:10:03] around with this.

[00:10:05] I remember JMS saying, we've got this Babylon fire project

[00:10:10] wrapped up.

[00:10:12] It's already in the can and will announce it at, you know,

[00:10:15] Comic Con next year.

[00:10:17] And I'm just like, what could it be?

[00:10:19] Like, after several years of saying it's over,

[00:10:23] or it's back.

[00:10:25] Yeah.

[00:10:29] At least they knew there was something around the corner

[00:10:31] instead of just prolonging.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:37] So they're just wishing we could have more.

[00:10:40] I think he said that he could probably do two movies a year

[00:10:45] and still maintain the quality.

[00:10:50] I'd be happy with one.

[00:10:52] Yeah.

[00:10:54] As long as it's not getting to the end of the tunnel and you're

[00:10:57] like, I don't care.

[00:11:02] I like those justice living movies that one of brother does.

[00:11:06] Oh yeah.

[00:11:07] Don't don't test everyone's patience.

[00:11:11] Some of them are really good, but some of them are like,

[00:11:14] uh,

[00:11:15] That's 90 minutes. I can't get back.

[00:11:19] No, I have to do the same thing with my sister where I'm just

[00:11:22] like, Hey, you know, I know you really want to see this.

[00:11:25] I would rather wait for HBO.

[00:11:28] I would rather wait for the movie to be released.

[00:11:31] So that way I can save my time on this.

[00:11:35] Yada, yada, but I know easier said than done.

[00:11:42] Um,

[00:11:46] So how'd you like the movie?

[00:11:48] I was actually pretty impressed.

[00:11:50] Uh, it's not going to win any awards, but I mean just.

[00:11:53] Just the animation itself, I think was interesting.

[00:11:57] It's kind of their answer to the spider verse.

[00:12:02] I think it's not my favorite movie.

[00:12:04] I'm not sure it's my favorite.

[00:12:06] It's not my favorite of the movies, but it's fine.

[00:12:08] I'll let you do your new ranking of them.

[00:12:12] Um,

[00:12:19] If I recall, it's looking at ratings from when we were doing the show

[00:12:23] and for some reason.

[00:12:24] We all hated a call to arms, which I don't know enough of it.

[00:12:29] To remember why.

[00:12:30] I don't know.

[00:12:31] I don't know.

[00:12:32] I don't know.

[00:12:33] I don't know.

[00:12:34] I think a lot of it was kind of the music and just not like in the

[00:12:38] female lead, even though it leads up to per se.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:44] I figured I would have liked it because of that, but I guess.

[00:12:47] I must suck up. So.

[00:12:48] Yeah.

[00:12:53] I like everything even when it's technically just really not very

[00:12:57] great.

[00:12:58] But I think.

[00:12:59] This is still.

[00:13:01] You know,

[00:13:02] And just looking back at this now, how do you think you'd introduce

[00:13:06] people into it now?

[00:13:07] Would you still do the.

[00:13:09] The.

[00:13:10] In the beginning movie first.

[00:13:14] Along with the show or would you just skip around?

[00:13:17] Yeah.

[00:13:22] So that was my least favorite.

[00:13:25] Little bit ahead of that was legend of the ranger.

[00:13:28] Surprisingly, it asked me like.

[00:13:30] 10 years ago, I probably would have said this was by far the worst,

[00:13:34] but.

[00:13:35] If you counted it was really like a backdoor pilot, I guess.

[00:13:42] It was.

[00:13:43] But like you said, the virtual reality, how they were fighting

[00:13:47] was just very bonkers dumb.

[00:13:52] It was just a little bit of a.

[00:13:53] It wasn't well animated.

[00:13:58] Even though the story makes sense. Okay. Yeah.

[00:14:01] You know, the side quests, but.

[00:14:03] There's still these questions looming.

[00:14:11] Was there someone in that movie that was.

[00:14:17] Maybe I'm thinking about something else.

[00:14:19] Maybe there's a character from crusade in this movie, but.

[00:14:22] Oh yeah.

[00:14:23] I think that's a little bit of a.

[00:14:25] The female lead was on there later as well as.

[00:14:28] Peter Woodward's.

[00:14:29] Mage character.

[00:14:36] A little bit ahead of that. I had a river of souls.

[00:14:40] Understandable.

[00:14:44] Martin.

[00:14:46] Weird.

[00:14:48] Yep.

[00:14:52] But yeah, I got a golem was in lost tells and called arms,

[00:14:56] but yeah.

[00:14:58] I mean, it's just one of those where it's like,

[00:15:01] you're like the cast members, but.

[00:15:03] Getting there is very, very slow and you're just like, why is this

[00:15:08] slow?

[00:15:09] Even by B five standards.

[00:15:11] And it.

[00:15:12] It just.

[00:15:14] I think that it should have just been an episode and they should

[00:15:17] have had a B plot going instead of.

[00:15:19] We're doing a movie special.

[00:15:21] Yeah.

[00:15:23] Yeah.

[00:15:24] That's TNT wanted that movie.

[00:15:26] I guess so.

[00:15:27] Yeah.

[00:15:28] Yeah.

[00:15:30] Maybe they were really trying to get into sci-fi.

[00:15:34] It's wild though how I'm DB.

[00:15:37] And I don't know who added this.

[00:15:39] If it was on a chat or from a Reddit, but it claims that.

[00:15:42] J. Michael's presence. He's still not allowed to use.

[00:15:45] Any characters from crusade due to a dispute with TNT.

[00:15:49] I'm like, see there's still some bad blood if that's the case.

[00:15:53] I don't doubt it.

[00:15:57] I mean,

[00:15:59] I can understand him mouthing off and being outspoken at the same

[00:16:03] time.

[00:16:05] I kind of like it when people just kind of pull a Conan O'Brien where

[00:16:09] they're doing something weird,

[00:16:11] but they convinced the producers who are telling them to not do it.

[00:16:15] That it's their idea.

[00:16:17] So then they label them alone because.

[00:16:20] They made them think, Hey, yeah, I did that.

[00:16:27] Slightly ahead of River of Souls was the lost tales.

[00:16:31] I think I liked.

[00:16:33] The Centauri story better than the.

[00:16:39] Lockely story.

[00:16:41] Yeah, no, that's fair.

[00:16:43] It is okay.

[00:16:44] And so I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:46] I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:47] I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:48] I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:49] I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:52] I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:53] I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:55] I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:56] I think it's a good idea.

[00:16:58] It is okay.

[00:16:59] It's more of a extra system.

[00:17:02] A little bit ahead of that was the gathering.

[00:17:05] Which is the first thing they ever filmed for the show.

[00:17:08] It's good for.

[00:17:10] For that.

[00:17:11] And you know.

[00:17:13] Holy.

[00:17:15] And a little bit ahead of that I had.

[00:17:19] These are probably be kind of.

[00:17:24] The first three.

[00:17:25] I think they're really close together the next three.

[00:17:28] I would have.

[00:17:30] Probably third space in the third spot.

[00:17:34] The road home in the second spot and in the beginning.

[00:17:38] And the first spot.

[00:17:40] Sweet.

[00:17:46] And I think that's generally how most people kind of do it.

[00:17:50] I just like third space just because.

[00:17:53] You know,

[00:17:55] it's like, you know,

[00:17:56] it's like,

[00:17:57] you know,

[00:17:58] it's like,

[00:17:59] you know,

[00:18:00] the road home is really good and it's a standalone kind of.

[00:18:03] The movie plot was like, okay, this monster has been unleashed.

[00:18:06] It can mess with people's minds. So we're having to deal with a.

[00:18:09] At the same time, we're trying to.

[00:18:13] You know, combat this giant alien ship.

[00:18:16] Yeah.

[00:18:18] The road home might be benefiting from the newness of it.

[00:18:22] But I think it's like,

[00:18:24] you know,

[00:18:25] I'm not sure how it could be different right now.

[00:18:28] I saw a lot of people before I had a chance to watch it.

[00:18:31] I saw a lot of people saying that the.

[00:18:35] The main, the prime kind line was done with, and they're.

[00:18:39] He was going to.

[00:18:41] They thought that he was going to explore this new reality that

[00:18:44] we got to see.

[00:18:46] The.

[00:18:47] Tourist.

[00:18:48] The end, but.

[00:18:49] I watch it.

[00:18:50] I'm like, I don't know how people got that idea.

[00:18:52] Then JMS, like a couple of days ago said, nope.

[00:18:55] The original timeline is still there and still ripe for

[00:18:58] storytelling.

[00:19:02] Yeah.

[00:19:03] I saw others complaining about his humor and I was like, yeah,

[00:19:06] he's kind of always done that dry humor though.

[00:19:09] Yeah.

[00:19:10] He's a 70, 70 year old guy. That's the best.

[00:19:12] That was my only.

[00:19:14] Complaint about the movies that some of the.

[00:19:17] It was definitely.

[00:19:20] Written by a 70 something year old person.

[00:19:25] People who are.

[00:19:27] You know, much younger.

[00:19:32] Sure.

[00:19:33] And it's lots to take in.

[00:19:38] And.

[00:19:40] I was kind of thinking of the same thing when I read his novel

[00:19:43] that came out like, yeah, these are young people,

[00:19:45] but they kind of.

[00:19:47] You tell this book was written by a guy who is, you know.

[00:19:51] He's a young person.

[00:19:52] And he's like, yeah, I'm not of the same generation.

[00:19:57] Yeah.

[00:19:58] Just fine, but it's not that big of a deal, but.

[00:20:01] Stands out a little bit.

[00:20:07] And.

[00:20:08] You learn a little bit of everything every day when it's like, okay,

[00:20:12] so.

[00:20:13] They think this is cool, but really it's not quite there yet.

[00:20:20] I really.

[00:20:23] I think in the beginning was the last thing.

[00:20:27] Claudia Christian.

[00:20:29] Maybe.

[00:20:30] Yeah.

[00:20:31] That are.

[00:20:32] That are third space, but yeah, I mean.

[00:20:35] To be fair, I mean she's just moved on so much. So.

[00:20:45] At least she came back for the road home.

[00:20:48] I think, I think there was speaking of.

[00:20:51] I mean, I think there was a lot of.

[00:20:53] JMS cornering bad blood. I think.

[00:20:58] There was something between them for a while.

[00:21:00] And I think there was something between him and Patricia Alexander

[00:21:03] for a while, but I think they.

[00:21:05] Made up.

[00:21:10] Yeah.

[00:21:11] Lots to.

[00:21:13] I mean.

[00:21:14] She published her own books apparently.

[00:21:17] And I think there was like a cease and desist.

[00:21:19] Like considered non-canon, but I was able to find them on some

[00:21:23] online.

[00:21:24] I think that's a good one.

[00:21:25] Yeah.

[00:21:26] Who did.

[00:21:27] Claudia Christian.

[00:21:29] Do I have that?

[00:21:31] I don't think I.

[00:21:33] Yeah.

[00:21:34] Want me to email him to you?

[00:21:36] I can do it.

[00:21:38] Patricia told in this book.

[00:21:40] I haven't read it yet.

[00:21:41] Oh yeah.

[00:21:42] Her behind the scenes talked about her stump career.

[00:21:46] That is a good one, but it is.

[00:21:49] Right.

[00:21:50] Yeah.

[00:21:55] Yeah.

[00:21:56] All together.

[00:21:58] Who are some other villains or just.

[00:22:01] Gigantic moments that you just kind of feel.

[00:22:04] Or just.

[00:22:06] Epic.

[00:22:08] Yeah, I'll go through some moments that I just popped first.

[00:22:11] It popped to my one was when.

[00:22:14] Sinclair makes his.

[00:22:17] Return.

[00:22:20] War without end.

[00:22:24] I think that's a good one.

[00:22:26] So we hadn't seen him since season one and I,

[00:22:29] when I first started watching the show, it was in season four.

[00:22:32] So I didn't get to see.

[00:22:33] I didn't know anything about.

[00:22:35] Sinclair.

[00:22:36] Like who is this guy?

[00:22:39] TNT got the show and.

[00:22:40] Must be somebody important.

[00:22:42] Yeah.

[00:22:43] But I don't think he's even mentioned after season three.

[00:22:47] So I did even realize there had been a person.

[00:22:50] Who was the one who was the one who was the one who was the one who.

[00:22:53] Yeah.

[00:22:54] Yeah.

[00:22:55] So they're just that moment.

[00:22:57] I remember when we did the podcast,

[00:22:59] we really tried to hide the fact that he was going to.

[00:23:01] Be back.

[00:23:03] It was tough to not give every other spoiler away.

[00:23:06] Yeah.

[00:23:07] If you're with us now.

[00:23:09] And we got them to record the, you know, their reaction.

[00:23:13] To, you know, when they finally saw him back is.

[00:23:16] Yeah.

[00:23:17] We had that.

[00:23:18] And I think it was, it was a.

[00:23:19] It was, it was at the end of the season.

[00:23:21] Yeah.

[00:23:22] When we played the, when it was, you know,

[00:23:24] when we did the show.

[00:23:25] When we did.

[00:23:26] The Ga, once you,

[00:23:27] once it was revealed what he had gone through, you know,

[00:23:30] during that season he was on.

[00:23:31] Just kind of appreciate his character a little more.

[00:23:33] Instead of being like, who the hell's this guy?

[00:23:36] Yeah.

[00:23:37] This guy.

[00:23:39] He's not as dynamic as John shared.

[00:23:43] Yeah.

[00:23:45] really his bad I think it's just, it was a mixture of his interpretation versus their

[00:23:52] limited budget.

[00:23:53] Yeah.

[00:23:54] And I think it just helped that Boxlettner had already done sci-fi and TV longer I guess.

[00:24:08] Another moment was the scene where Sinclair is showing Earth's religions.

[00:24:17] Let's set that over.

[00:24:21] That along with him, Sheridan realizing his wife isn't dead and having to get away from

[00:24:25] the shadows, you know, unstoppable.

[00:24:28] Yeah.

[00:24:29] And well...

[00:24:30] This is so much to take in and this is before, you know, Jerobaldi is doing his Mars, Saboteur

[00:24:37] stuff, Franklin's trying to have combat some addiction and it just...

[00:24:49] I think Marcus is the one who's the warrior.

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:53] Yeah.

[00:24:54] And he and again, Ivanova, you know, Christian's character, you know, are just kind of got

[00:24:59] their romantic tension while they're going on their own dangerous adventures.

[00:25:04] I think it was cool to have kind of not just A and B plots, but also kind of C, D and E

[00:25:09] plots too.

[00:25:10] Yeah.

[00:25:11] One of my favorite moments, I guess the entire series is Ivanova's God-Sit-Me speech.

[00:25:18] Yeah.

[00:25:19] Like I am death incarnate.

[00:25:22] It's a pretty cool speech.

[00:25:24] Yeah.

[00:25:25] She's really good with monologues.

[00:25:29] Yes.

[00:25:30] Good monologues.

[00:25:33] Um, there's a scene where, um, Kosh is seen by almost everybody, himself or like, Blando.

[00:25:43] We'll return after these messages.

[00:25:54] The Jacked Up Review Show podcast is honored to be part of the Blind Knowledge Podcast

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[00:26:00] Join any time, talk the talk and enjoy yourselves.

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[00:26:06] Check them out.

[00:26:42] Do you ever find yourself thinking about who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman?

[00:26:46] Hi, I'm James Gavzian.

[00:26:48] On the Who Would Win Show, me and my co-host Ray ignore anything important happening in

[00:26:52] the outside world and debate fictional battles between characters from comics, movies and

[00:26:56] video games.

[00:26:57] We got a new show every week and almost always am I the winner.

[00:27:00] Not true, Ray.

[00:27:01] In the past we've discussed such matches as Captain America vs Darth Vader, Solid

[00:27:06] Snake vs the Iron Giant, classic matchups like Robocop vs Terminator and even the Muppets

[00:27:13] vs Sesame Street.

[00:27:14] That one was crazy.

[00:27:16] So if you're a fan of geek culture and love a spirited debate, check out the Who Would

[00:27:20] Win Show wherever you get your podcast or check us out at whowouldwinshow.com.

[00:27:51] And it's so wild because those first five episodes you're like, I'm not sure how I feel about either

[00:28:12] Jakar or Rolando.

[00:28:13] They're always up to something.

[00:28:16] I like the, I would say like a thorough right where sometimes I go back and watch the scene

[00:28:22] where Babylon 5 is demolished and got the swelling music in the background.

[00:28:30] Station just blows up.

[00:28:36] And I mean that along with how they describe the stars I think is good world building.

[00:28:47] Stars.

[00:28:48] Because you always wonder about the various like science behind everything.

[00:28:53] Like, okay, we got Star Trek type technology, you got Star Wars type battles but how many

[00:29:00] people are on here?

[00:29:02] Just in that.

[00:29:08] So exactly what is a villain?

[00:29:12] Yeah, good question.

[00:29:14] I'm kind of ashamed to admit one person I forgot when I made a list originally but I

[00:29:21] remembered in like five minutes before I signed on.

[00:29:26] Oh, good.

[00:29:27] That's best.

[00:29:30] Yeah, I mean, when you got a Gestapo, you know, Nazi Desquire and he's the face of it,

[00:29:38] you know, he's already a genre favorite and rather than tell the viewer by the way this is

[00:29:44] not a nice guy to check off.

[00:29:46] This is Walter Cohn of being a real bastard.

[00:29:55] Yeah, I think he's a favorite just because he's really, you can be very laid back or

[00:30:02] just in everyone's face you never know until he enters the room and intimidates you.

[00:30:10] And always got his own agenda I think.

[00:30:16] Yeah, I'm still not really sure where he is even at the end of it.

[00:30:20] Even if you're reading the spin off book material you're like what is this ulterior motive?

[00:30:26] Yeah.

[00:30:30] I mean, like you were saying earlier, you know, as a point where your car is kind of a villain and

[00:30:37] Blondo is kind of a villain at times.

[00:30:45] So many surprises.

[00:30:48] Yeah, I think Mr. Morden would be also another good villain.

[00:30:53] Oh.

[00:30:57] Yeah.

[00:30:58] Yeah.

[00:30:59] Yeah, totally. I tried talking about him but I just kept forgetting his name and like no it's not his name.

[00:31:04] What's, what's with the good guys? Okay yeah, Morden.

[00:31:08] I mean just that voice is like yeah, I'm not sure if this guy is a barfly or he's a cool guy but kind of sounding douchey.

[00:31:17] I don't know until he opens his mouth.

[00:31:22] But he means what he means and he's either going to keep talking in riddles or doing something else that's mischievous.

[00:31:37] I like the Centauri Emperor.

[00:31:43] Oh.

[00:31:44] So insane. So he's very, I don't know if there's any, I can't remember if there are any of them.

[00:31:53] There's so many but I know what you mean where he is just like, he has no like, I just would kind of call him very lacking in self-awareness

[00:32:06] kind of like a what an elite he is.

[00:32:11] Yeah, even Besterhead times where you kind of felt bad for him but I don't know if I ever felt.

[00:32:17] He's an emperor after all.

[00:32:23] Yeah. He's pretty much got another thing coming.

[00:32:31] His head on a pike, right? No that was Morden sorry.

[00:32:36] The deer did kill the emperor though.

[00:32:40] Yeah, very unexpectedly and it's just kind of interesting because you're just like, seriously?

[00:32:51] Yeah.

[00:32:52] I mean it's fine and all I just like I didn't expect that.

[00:32:56] Yeah.

[00:32:58] Subverting expectations which is.

[00:33:07] That's it was.

[00:33:11] The shadows had like shields in the movie. I don't know that was interesting.

[00:33:19] I don't remember, I guess they had them in the, they have them in the show.

[00:33:23] Yeah, they're pretty shielded but yeah.

[00:33:26] They don't look same.

[00:33:29] I don't know.

[00:33:35] But I liked how they were animated.

[00:33:38] They kind of remind me of the bugs and like aliens or starship troopers but minus any camp or attempt.

[00:33:47] Reiki without kind of more like a spider.

[00:33:54] Yeah, so JMS say that he told the animators not to.

[00:33:59] Not to feel not to be too in love with the look from the show and give them some freedom to do their own thing.

[00:34:12] He pretty much was straightforward is like I wanted to be this.

[00:34:21] And it is funny how each time you ask him how many are on certain ships he's always like as many as the plot demands.

[00:34:29] Yeah, how fast is this ship.

[00:34:35] The speed of plotters is famous line.

[00:34:41] Warp speed or a Kessel run to make that.

[00:34:46] You know, a whole different kind of science.

[00:34:53] Yeah, no, it's pretty cool.

[00:34:56] I think one of my favorite scenes in the movie which I think you see it in the trailer was when Lando and Susan are waiting for the world to end basically.

[00:35:08] Yeah, no kidding.

[00:35:13] It's funny kind of seeing their doom and gloom and it's like no guys you're good.

[00:35:19] Nothing to worry about here.

[00:35:23] At least shared in.

[00:35:25] We knew Sharon was safe he was going to get out of there with you'd have a reason yeah.

[00:35:40] But, um,

[00:35:42] Chris has a few fun moments I actually like a lot of the planetary chases.

[00:35:48] It just kind of gives them their own kind of it's less like a video game just more.

[00:35:55] I feel like that's as closer as they get to Star Trek especially when they got like computer devices taken over their ships and

[00:36:07] just examining more of their science and just other just kind of adventurer ish expeditions and like see I kind of wish there had been more than be five but was here and there they didn't want to risk being another Star Trek knockoff without its own sense of material.

[00:36:31] Yeah, I mean, you mentioned

[00:36:36] I think it's just interesting how for a while he's like the face of it you're like I'm pretty sure he's the main guy who like well kind of but not really.

[00:36:55] Interesting.

[00:36:59] I think how the four lines, villains and allies.

[00:37:07] So, um,

[00:37:10] they had their whole, they both had their fingers and so many different things just trying to manipulate everything everybody.

[00:37:26] I mean, really the better man. Let the cat out of the bag.

[00:37:36] What what do you think is overall what makes this show I think epic other than the speeches set design, making up for budget with, you know, great music and

[00:37:51] actors and other people have worked on other sci fi crime shows.

[00:37:58] And the scale.

[00:38:02] Because it was, if not the first one of the first shows to try to tell.

[00:38:08] Surrealized story over five seasons.

[00:38:15] The storytelling was, you know, the writing was excellent.

[00:38:23] Yeah, maybe he worked himself too much to.

[00:38:27] Yeah, he had like three to four hours of sleep every day.

[00:38:33] I can't remember the number but what does she do like well over 100 episodes in a row.

[00:38:40] It's so unheard of.

[00:38:43] I saw a corporate piece literally a few weeks ago that was bashing the new Star Wars shows saying, you know, Dave Filoni and John Farribault should hire a writer's room.

[00:38:55] And like, well, Michael Skrzinski and others have shown that there's more consistency if you just have one person.

[00:39:04] I mean, I don't personally care I can go either way on that but I'm just like, yeah.

[00:39:09] I think I see a lot of people complaining about the 10 episode format. I personally like the 10 episode format. It gives me less time to have to catch up on anything.

[00:39:21] There's so many shows out there and kind of like, I kind of like when they're done in like eight episodes or 10 but something that misses.

[00:39:35] Mrs like that.

[00:39:37] I'm just all spoiled.

[00:39:40] What's the what's the episode where you see the sea from the point of view of the other janitorial staff or whatever.

[00:39:53] Oh yeah it's like a season five of so we could do bring this up.

[00:39:58] I would love to see more of those guys.

[00:40:01] I mean, you know, when it's only like when everything's tight and you'll have 10 episodes you don't really have as much room for those kind of episodes.

[00:40:14] I mean, a lower decks episode.

[00:40:19] Yeah, Star Trek's got plenty of filler episodes and it is so funny how which ones have just evolved over time or it's like I recall that being fun when I grew up I might not like it on a rewatch.

[00:40:32] I mean, I have some filler episodes that drove me crazy. I'm like, come on guys.

[00:40:37] Focus on the animation and the gags.

[00:40:46] But I do, I do wish they could be kind of like Star Trek where they'd have something for adults that have some of her kids.

[00:40:54] And just kind of a way to make its universe bit bigger. I mean hell, they won't across it over.

[00:40:59] Be my guest.

[00:41:02] I mean, it's one of ours doesn't want to split the pie and I was paramount but I'd be down.

[00:41:09] Yeah, maybe we'll get some maybe Disney will.

[00:41:19] Star Trek Marvel and something like that.

[00:41:23] I mean you can do that.

[00:41:25] Are you sure you want to proceed?

[00:41:30] I've written some comic books like what X-Men and the Star Trek.

[00:41:36] Yes, there was. Yeah, it was like second contact.

[00:41:46] Oh, it's interesting how we have all these different characters though and you can literally follow any of them around and I kind of missed that we have that with some shows but for the most part they're kind of just action crime.

[00:42:06] It's very rare that I see that was, I think the expansive is a good example but like everything else not so much of that like where there's multiple people to follow around.

[00:42:17] I'll give Ted last of all applause because that's one that has a lot of just like it's part of the comedy.

[00:42:25] There will be like five things happening in one room and you won't catch them all in one scoop.

[00:42:31] Three people are doing two wacky things in the background while two other people are talking.

[00:42:42] I'll say a complaint a lot of people have with Star Trek Discovery, especially early on with that you know other than like three characters you don't really know anything about anyone else you have this whole bridge crew.

[00:42:58] It kind of forces it upon you but yeah.

[00:43:01] The first season I couldn't remember any of their names just because we didn't spend enough time with them or for just maybe like one or two people on the bridge crew besides.

[00:43:13] Yeah, and the call sign.

[00:43:16] Yeah.

[00:43:17] To be fair, that's a good contrast I do feel like it definitely took a lot from

[00:43:22] Battlestar with there being a mutiny every other episode and then like B5 having the bigger picture scheme where none of this makes any sense to you but we got your attention so if you stay with us we're going to blow your mind.

[00:43:36] Yeah.

[00:43:38] I think it wasn't until second season where they finally actually started to do stuff with the other.

[00:43:43] Yeah.

[00:43:44] Better cast.

[00:43:46] Yeah, less plot reveals I think it's just because there was so many writer changes.

[00:43:52] And when you got too many cooks in the kitchen you're going to have a rough patch but yeah, what a few fans said that the even number seasons are better and I would definitely say that's pretty accurate it just is way more comfortable.

[00:44:09] I mean, season three I thought was very engaging, but then it kind of lost me with some other side quests and like hold up.

[00:44:23] Until I'm like a.

[00:44:26] I'm easily manipulated.

[00:44:29] Dude, I mean beginning of season three I was like crying in every episode.

[00:44:34] Discoveries.

[00:44:36] It's all good emotional with them. They had some good acting now it's good.

[00:44:41] And people some lot of fans like to complain about how much crying there is on that show but I'm all I was all there with them.

[00:44:51] I think we got a lot of hard less people.

[00:44:55] Yeah.

[00:44:59] I wasn't keen on it when they showed an edited version of it on CBS one summer.

[00:45:06] After, well once I borrowed paramount from a relative I was just like, you know what, I'm in it.

[00:45:15] It's not perfect, but you know, neither was enterprise that first year and neither was, you know, there's plenty of episodes you're going to want to skip on all the other ones too there's.

[00:45:27] There's plenty of episodes of next gen and the original that people hate and I don't think are that bad but then there's other ones to that various like yeah it's just fun.

[00:45:40] It's not great, but it's okay. I mean, I did actually have fun rewatching DS nine and I used to just always be like yeah be five over DS nine any day there's some good episodes but doesn't get anything cooking until you know worth joins the cast yada yada

[00:45:59] and on this rewatch and is like, you know what, I'm torn now.

[00:46:08] It's not great.

[00:46:09] Going through. I was thinking that like how so many shows didn't get really good until season three and I was like listing and like deep space nine and the next iteration of Babylon five started getting really really good until like see three

[00:46:29] and some comedies.

[00:46:35] Well, and who knows to them for having what's now kind of commonplace now, especially on episodes of NCIS where it's like they have seven partners and like see I wish more shows would do that, especially in those final DS nine seasons is like see those were actually very intriguing.

[00:46:57] I think a lot of people, I mean, I still see people complain why is sci fi non actual TV anymore and it's like it's just, it always just as a very low rated show for whatever reason.

[00:47:10] No one knows streaming if you want sci fi got to go to Apple TV.

[00:47:15] They have a they have some good sci fi.

[00:47:19] Yeah.

[00:47:23] But you said what you said reminded me of that a Spider-Man cartoon from the 90s because they would have like these really long story line.

[00:47:35] I wish I could remember like I was women just watching that show and it's like such and such part 10 or something like that, like these are really long story lines.

[00:47:46] And it's just so much down back now.

[00:48:05] It's been great having you on here just for this quick chat and I feel like it was interesting seeing how our rankings really haven't changed all that much but the animated movie kind of just boosted a bit and was like say maybe there can be some fun movies instead of just them being just, you know, time filler.

[00:48:26] Yeah.

[00:48:30] It was a fun movie. Yeah.

[00:48:32] Totally.

[00:48:33] I'm glad it's back. I'm glad it wasn't just awful because then that would have just killed B5 or who knows how long.

[00:48:41] Oh, then the world will really be screwed.

[00:48:48] Oh man. So thank you ever so much man and I promise we'll do more chats more on a more regular basis to definitely got to do more.

[00:48:58] My schedule just been so welcome to the show.

[00:49:04] It never stops being chaotic and but I hope your bosses don't raise hell. I hope they really got their stuff together.

[00:49:13] We'll see.

[00:49:15] I'll pray.

[00:49:17] Yeah, thank you.

[00:49:20] At least you're not on B5 being told what to do.

[00:49:25] Definitely.

[00:49:28] Jeremiah, let's show that he really hated doing.

[00:49:33] Right.

[00:50:04] Yeah.