Robert Sellers on The Battle for Bond, Part Two - SpyMaster Interview #98

[00:00:34] Hello and welcome to SpyHards Podcast, the best podcast ever? I suppose so. I'm Agent Scott. And I'm Cam the Provocateur, battling for Bond. Oh, you're battling hard. I am indeed. Time to pulp you. Oh, well, that's about time. Yeah, we've been waiting for it. I was overstaying my welcome at this point anyway. You should be banned. I should, I should.

[00:01:00] Well, we're back with Part Two of our Robert Sellers interview. We've been getting some great feedback from you guys on Part One. I'm glad you've been enjoying it. Part Two has some interesting turns, which we'll get into. But I wanted to share a bit of news with you all first before we got into it. And sort of come to you all mildly hat in hand to ask a favour.

[00:01:24] So for those of you who weren't aware, we have been nominated in the Golden Bullet Community Awards. This is a sort of James Bond Community Awards by a chap called Roland Hume, who is over on Instagram. You can go follow him there. There'll be some details in the show notes below. But we've been nominated by your fine selves in two categories for best podcast and best podcast episode for our Jeff Kleeman interview last year, which I'm sure you've heard us speak about.

[00:01:53] If you haven't already listened to it. I mean, I would go and listen to that right now. It's probably one of our finest moments. Yeah, it was an incredible interview. And so many details there that previously were just not known about the Brosnan era. Yeah. And I guess it's sort of nice symmetry that I'm tagging this into the interview with Robert Sellers here, because again, it's full of details that people didn't know about.

[00:02:16] And that's what we really love to do here on Spy Hearts podcast is spy on the history of spy movies. We dig deep to try and find the new stuff that you guys don't know about. Jeff Kleeman was one. And this is this is another one. Yeah, that's actually a great point. And you're right. Like I know Robert Sellers. Thank you. Robert Sellers in his book Battle for Bond is, you know, really laying out the history of Thunderball and digging into all the corners and all the various what ifs and what could have beens.

[00:02:46] And that was something that the Jeff Kleeman interview was also trying to do was to, you know, we'd always heard about a Dr. Kaufman spinoff. Was that a reality? We were able to answer questions like that. Yeah. Yeah. So the next stage is now we've been nominated. You know, it's a voting stage for you all to go and drop us a vote. There will be a link in the show notes below. The actual closing dates for the votes is the 15th of May. So if you listen to it after this point, that will be closed down. But thank you for going to look at it anyway.

[00:03:14] But if you're listening to it before the 15th of May and you feel like giving us a vote, click the link in the show notes below and it'll send you straight over to a forms document.

[00:03:51] You can fill it all in. It's the best podcast episode. Don't forget your boys. That's right. That's right. That's right. But I've harangued you long enough. You've turned up for Robert Sellers part two. Let's give it to you. Away we go. So, Robert, the book comes out and, you know, I've got a first edition sat with me here. I'm very happy to have it.

[00:04:20] It's a little worse for wear, but it is. It's there. I've got it. And, you know, one thing I want to touch on before I get to maybe sort of the litigation that happened with the book coming out is one thing I noticed between the editions is a forward change between Raymond Benson and Len Dayton. And I keep meaning to I know Raymond Benson and I keep meaning to ask him about that. But like, is there a story between that change or why did that change take place?

[00:04:47] I think because because of the problems, the controversy over the first edition and the fact that we had to destroy all the copies, which we did or some survived. All of them were pulps. We had to pulp. Yeah, we had to. We had to destroy every issue that was in the warehouse, you know, and there's if people want to go on YouTube.

[00:05:17] If you want to put some battle for bond, Robert Sellers or there's a little news item. We were approached by the BBC, BBC Yorkshire. I think he wanted to do because Jack Whittigam is Yorkshire. You see, he's a Yorkshire. So it's sort of a local interest story. And they came to Sylvan's house and they interviewed both of us about it. And then there's actually, there's actually footage of a van outside a pulping place.

[00:05:43] And then the big carton of battle for bond comes out and they take it in obviously to be pulped. So I was, I was, I found it all fascinating actually to be banned, to be a banned author. I thought it was fantastic. I loved it. You rebel you. I did. I really, I thought because it was so outrageous. It was just so unbelievable that you could ban a book.

[00:06:11] You know, I thought, I thought, you know, it was only the Nazis who did that, you know, the books and things. But obviously, you know, the Fleming estate was probably behind destroying literature. So it was all, it was all very weird, but, but I, yeah, I did, did enjoy being a banned writer for a few months. But then we thought, you know what we, because the, the objection was really the reproduction of,

[00:06:41] because there's a lot of illustrations in the first, there's not so many in the second edition of the ending. But the, the, the first edition is quite heavily illustrated. There's lots of images. Because, because I found it wasn't just the, the letters and stuff, but there was a lot of sort of checkbooks and things like that. The, the, the, the film production company that they formed, Fleming formed with Bryce or Xanadu. They had a little letterhead and their own checkbook. And that's that we, we put that in the book.

[00:07:11] Because these things have never been seen before. But we also, what we also did was to reproduce, because obviously in the, in the book I quote from the letters, I quote quite substantially from, from letters, but we don't. But we also reproduced complete letters. And that's where we got in trouble. It was the, it was the fact that we reproduced in their entirety, Fleming letters.

[00:07:34] And we, we, our argument was that in a court case, once you've had a court case and those letters are in, are used as evidence, those letters have been in the public domain. So therefore they're allowed to be used. That would have been our, absolutely. That would have been our argument. Had we been able to afford the $10,000 an hour lawyers that the Fleming estate could, could afford. So unfortunately, because you know, it was a very small publisher who published it.

[00:08:04] It wasn't Harper Collins or anything like that, who would have had the, you know, the, the financial muscle to have, you know, said to the lawyers, okay, see you and call. But, um, it was a very small publisher and we couldn't afford to take the chance. So we, we, well, just, just to wheel it back a second, because I, I mean, I started off by talking about the foreword. So I assume Raymond Benson went with the sort of change because Raymond Benson's very much in the camp of Ian Fleming. He's writing Fleming books. That's the reason. Yeah.

[00:08:33] When, when the second audition coming out, um, I, I got back in touch and said, can we still use your foreword? And he, because of his connection with, I completely understand this as well. Um, that, that he, he felt he, because the, the book had, um, you know, the, the, the aura, a twinge of controversy about it that, and, and he was an official author there. He didn't want his name on there, which is, which are completely understood. Um, yeah.

[00:09:02] And, um, I think, um, how did, how did I get Len Dayton? I think he, I'd interviewed him, of course, I'd interviewed him for my book. That's why. Mm-hmm. About Warhead. Um, so I'd met him and we, we got on really well. And he wrote to me outraged because, um, I think the times did an article about the book being destroyed. Um, and, and he read it and he wrote to me and said he was outraged.

[00:09:29] Um, and he, he himself said Fleming would, would not have approved of the, of the action that was, that had taken place. And I asked him if he'd do the forwards, um, which he did. So, it's a terrific forward. Oh, I mean, I've only read the Raymond Benson one, but yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, cause he, he knew Fleming very well. Cause, cause Fleming was a fan of Harry Palmer. So he, he knew Fleming very well.

[00:09:55] And, um, his forward is really about his friendship with Fleming and, uh, observations of Fleming's character. It's, it's, it's worth, it's, it's worth a read. It's worth, I wouldn't, I wouldn't suggest buying a copy of the second edition, but if you can find it in a library or something, it's worth it. The, the end date and forward is, is a very interesting read. So like charting the story when you were, cause I think it's Tomahawk is the press company, at least in the UK, you put this book out through. Yeah.

[00:10:21] Did you have any sense of there being pushback before the book came out or where you just sort of look at this fine thing, here it is. And then that turns up. Um, I, I, I wasn't expecting anything. Many, um, I was expecting possibly from Eon, but not from the Fleming trust for some reason. I thought Eon would be the ones that would be pissed off. Cause of course, you know, never say was the, was the bastard Bond.

[00:10:45] Um, so I, I was getting some, some reaction from Eon about it. Um, so when, when I was told that the lawyers had been in touch, I thought, Oh God, you know, Barbara sent the lawyers in and they said, no, it's, it's the Fleming, it's the Fleming trust. And it was purely because of the reproduction of the letters, you know, cause I think it's all public. No, I mean, it's all fact, isn't it? I mean, uh, but they, they can't, um, I don't think they could do anything about the book.

[00:11:13] Cause it's all proven fact. Um, as you say, it's in the public domain in a sense. Yeah. It's, if it goes for court proceedings, it is issued out to the public. Like, uh, that's, I won't get into the litigation side for myself, but it is interesting that that was their, their angle. I think it was the only way to stop the book. I think they found, well, how can we stop the book? Um, and they got us on the fact that we reproduced complete letters. I don't, I don't think they wanted this story out there.

[00:11:42] I don't think, um, I mean, it's out there in, in, in small pockets, but, but the whole story, um, isn't out there. And, um, I think they didn't want to, they want it out there. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're self-prepared. We started this conversation saying about your love for James Bond, growing up watching the film, Thunderbolt being your favorite, someone who's writing about Bond and it's your passion. You know, how does that hit you getting that letter from the Ian Fleming Foundation saying stop? Hmm.

[00:12:12] Is that, is that take, is that hitting you? It did actually. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've made fun of the fact that I was quite, um, it was quite interesting to, to be a band author for a while that worked that, but the initial, yeah, the initial, um, when, when, uh, the publisher got in touch with me and said, we've got these, the lawyers have been in touch. Yes, it was, it was a real shock because you think, you think, um, you know, lawyers, oh dear, we're in trouble here.

[00:12:38] Um, don't know, you know, it could end up in court or, you know, so, um, yes, it was quite, it was a nervous couple of days thinking about it actually. Yeah. And where, where can, where is this going to go? What are we going to do? Um, but, and as soon as we sort of gave, gave in and they pulped the book and it was banned. Um, I sort of, I sort of reveled in it.

[00:13:06] I mean, the cover of the, the second edition says the, you know, in big letters at the, at the top, the book they tried to ban. So we, so we sort of, yeah, we said, okay, they banned us. Okay. Well, let's, let's, let's trade on it. You know, let's, let's, um, you know, be proud of it, you know? So it gives it a mystique, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, not many books are banned, are they really? And when you think, how many, can you name in the last 30 years books that have been banned and pulped? I can't think of many.

[00:13:37] So, no, but it was quite cool actually to be, um, to be one of the few authors whose, whose books are, you know, banned and destroyed. Yeah. The weirdest thing was what happened on Amazon. Go on. On the day, when the day, um, word came out that the book had been banned. Um, the book started going up in price on Amazon by, by, by minutes.

[00:14:06] I don't know how much, maybe they had 50 copies or 30 copies in stock and they were obviously were allowed to sell those. Um, but then they couldn't, but then that would have been it. You know, they wouldn't have been able to stock anymore. So people were going onto Amazon desperate to get that book before it was gone. And it started off at 20 pounds. And I think the last one went for 300 because the price going up when the stock was going.

[00:14:33] So Amazon must've known what was going on because the price kept going up. And I was watching it live. It was extraordinary. The last one went and bought about 200 pounds or something. Wow. But I think that money came to me, of course. No, of course not. No, no, no. Um, but yeah, I mean, as you say, you joined a very rarefied air of people that have actually had their book banned in the United Kingdom. Absolutely. That doesn't, I mean, there are books I could, I could list, but there aren't many. Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:02] And to see it on film, we got, we got it on film. You know, the, the, the, I'm going to track that down. If we, if we, if we put this out on video, I'll put a little clip of that. Like it's just, just write it back to the bottom. Yeah. It's, it's about a seven minute news, news item. And you, and you see the moment of the, the moment of truth when the, when the books. Yeah. Go in. Go in. Crazy. And you think like, um, you know, obviously we'll get to the second edition in a second, but you know, you were just trying to do something in earnest.

[00:15:32] You were trying to tell the story of, of a franchise you love, and it was never meant malicious. You were not trying to do anything against Ian Fleming or the estate. And they've obviously taken this tact against it. And I personally, I don't, I don't understand it or why they would do it, but. That's the reason why we, we, we thought, well, there's this book has, has to live again, you know, like Christopher Lee's Dracula, you know, it's, it's got to rise from the grave. Um, we didn't pour blood over it. We didn't, we didn't, we just took the letters out. No.

[00:16:02] What they were offensive, um, were these reproductions of complete letters. So we, we, we jumped those. It didn't alter the text. The text was untouched. Um, it was just the letters that we took out, um, which were sort of illustrations. Yeah. Um, and a lot of the other stuff we took out because he didn't have a big budget, really. This guy, uh, it came out almost as a, like as a paperback really. Um, but it wasn't text.

[00:16:29] Um, and they, they, we never heard from the, for lawyers because they, their objection was the letters. And then we'd taken them out. They couldn't, they couldn't object to anything else really. So. So that second edition came out and, and you obviously had no bite back from, from the Fleming estate, but it feels like that was sort of a, still a limited run though. There, there, there are only a few copies of this book online. Yeah. Because again, because I think we're talking about a very, very small publisher, you know,

[00:16:57] a one man, literally a one man band, you know, he publishes about a book every three years, you know? Um, so. How, how did it fare overseas? Cause I, I, UK law is different to the United States, for instance, was, was the book banned over there? The end. Yes. Yeah. That's an interesting thing to, to bring up actually. Yeah. The, um, the books in America were untouched. Yeah. So every book in America was allowed to, it would, I think, I think the copyright law in America is slightly different.

[00:17:27] Uh, that's why we, we would have liked to have gone to court to, to, to make our case. Um, but we just didn't have the money, you know, well, the publisher didn't have the money, nor did I. Um, but in America, they, they, I think it was allowed to be sold until it ran out. Right. Because, um, that's why, um, you know, maybe, uh, well, we'll go into the third edition. Maybe the America is the, is the home.

[00:17:56] Well, that, that was my next, my next question was, was, was about the third edition because where we got involved in the story is we were talking to a press company. I won't mention them in this discussion, but talking about linking it with you, talking about the book and having, and doing an interview. Uh, this is 2024. We were having these conversations and then the conversations just stopped one day. Yeah. And we thought, we thought we'd done something wrong. Like we'd emailed and it was rude or something or, or, or whatever.

[00:18:23] Um, and then I did some digging and found out what I think I found out about it. But could, could you tell the story of what inspired you to want to republish the book and, and, and what happened subsequently? Well, I think the, the desire, um, was that, um, obviously the print run of the second edition was quite low. Um, and over the last few years, it's I think 40, 50 pounds.

[00:18:49] Um, if you, if you want to buy it on eBay or something, I, I just think that's a lot of money, especially cause I don't get any of it. Um, so I thought, well, try and get a, well, return to the publisher and see if they were going to at least bring it out and kit on, on Kindle or something like that. Um, and, um, they, they weren't going to do that. Um, and also they weren't going to reprint it either. Um, which is fair enough. That's their decision.

[00:19:18] So I asked to, to get the copyright to, to, to bring it back into ownership. So the book now belongs to me. Um, so I approached, uh, the history press, which is a, uh, excellent publisher again, very small, but very, very respected. Um, and I've worked with them, um, working with them now, actually, I'm writing a book for them as we speak. Um, and I, that they were the publishers who published, um, my other two bomb books, the

[00:19:47] bomb producers and search for bomb. And the editor there was a guy called Mark, who was a bit of a bomb fan. So I thought he would be the person to approach and he knew of the book and immediately snapped it up and said, yes, let's go. Let's go with it. Um, then I went into my computer to see if I, cause this 2007 we're talking, aren't we? The first edition.

[00:20:13] So, um, unfortunately, um, all my emails start in about 2008. So I didn't have my original emails where I sent my manuscript. I didn't have the manuscript on a, on a memory stick or anything like that. Um, I asked the publisher if they had my original manuscript, but I sent them, they didn't have it. So what I had to do was, um, literally sit at my desk with a copy of the battle for bond

[00:20:40] in front of me and literally type out the whole book again. Um, and while I was doing that, um, I was coming across various sentences and passages that could do with a little bit of, little bit of work. So I almost self edited it, edited by a book. And I ended up taking quite a lot of the book out. Um, about, I think about 20%. I think also another reason for that is that I was given a, a word count.

[00:21:09] I couldn't go above a certain word count. The history press gave me a word count of 115,000 words. And I think the original book is about 140. So they, they couldn't publish the whole book anyway. So I did take a lot of stuff out, but I don't think it's harmed the book in any way. Cause there was a lot of, I wouldn't say padding, but there was a lot of stuff that probably is, is a little bit repetitive or not needed to tell the story. And so I think it's, it's, it's, it's more of a streamlined, um,

[00:21:39] storyline now. Uh, I think it's, I think it's a better read. Um, so that was, so that was finished. I, I, I sent it to them. Um, there was a book cover design, which was really nice. Um, it was all systems go. It was on Amazon. Um, and then suddenly I get a, an email deja vu. Um, that's if the Fleming lawyers are back.

[00:22:05] And, um, this time their objection is that we are using quotes from Fleming letters without permission, but there is, you know, um, you can quote from letters. Um, obviously you can't, there is a fair use, um, law that you can, you can quote from letters. Obviously you can't quote too much. Um, but you can quote from letters. Um, but they were saying, no, you can't quote from any Fleming letter that hasn't already been in a book.

[00:22:35] Um, so they were basically saying if you, this, this quote on page seven, if you can find another book somewhere that's been printed, that has printed that letter, then you can use that quote. So it was an impossible task that they were, they were giving me. Um, and again, the same, the same thing. History press aren't, aren't a huge, they're not Penguin. They're not Harper Collins. They don't have battalions of lawyers. Um, their, their suggestion, cause they, they, they still desperately wanted to publish the book.

[00:23:03] So they said, is there any way you can take out Fleming's quotes and just, um, paraphrase them? So, you know, we're not, we're not quoting from the letter, but you are describing what he said. And I refuse to do that, you know, because the wonderful thing about those letters from Fleming is that it's his voice. You know, you're hearing. You're hearing. It's written in his style. You can tell it's him. Absolutely. And you're hearing his voice.

[00:23:29] So if I paraphrase, like, um, Fleming wrote to Bryce and said, he didn't think, um, James Stewart would have been a good choice for Bond because whatever. It, it lessens it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So I refuse to do that. Um, and also I think Bond fans would have, would have seen it and said, why, why are all the Fleming quotes missing? You know, so I just refuse to do that. Um, good for you.

[00:23:55] Well, yeah, I, I just, I just, you know, pissed off again. I think it's tantamount to, I mean, I've got my objections to it. I'm not, I'm not looking to befriend the Ian Fleming estate myself. So I, I think it's tantamount to bullying personally speaking, but that's just my take on it. I think it's, it's bullying, but it's also, um, you know, we have freedom of expression, don't we? And, um, I don't, I don't believe in censorship and, uh, I think I was being censored. Yeah.

[00:24:24] Um, because I think that their, their argument was, was flawed. I think there is, it's fair use. I, I think also like, even if you did make those changes and say like you, you would turn the quotes into Fleming said this, um, yeah, they would find another problem. Yeah. So I, I think they don't want to just didn't want the book coming back. Um, maybe it was a wrong time. Maybe the timing. I've just, just thought maybe because of the Amazon thing happening, maybe the timing.

[00:24:53] I don't know. Maybe they think this is sort of, it's about the, it's sort of the, the, the, the dark. It's the one dark element in the history of bond, isn't it? It's sort of the dirty secret, isn't it? Yeah. It's, it's the, uh, it's the, uh, the black sheep in the family. Um, and maybe they didn't want it. That story brought back again, when all this Amazon stuff was happening, maybe I don't know.

[00:25:20] That's what I've just thought of it now, maybe because, because this was before the Amazon deal happened when this all happened. Yeah. And like last year they republished all the Fleming novels with like, you know, changed versions of the texts and stuff. They were trying to sort of like relaunch the Ian Fleming brand. I suppose maybe there's that. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, but any publishers listening, get in contact. I'll forward your details on. I think I'll try America. Cause I'm busy on two other books at the moment.

[00:25:48] So, um, when I've got a bit of time, um, I think maybe American publishers where I think, I think the copyright law about things like that is a little bit more flexible. Do you want to say, I think, um, it's a bit grayer. So it's a, maybe, maybe America is, is the, is the way forward. Well, I've, I've got a couple of like postscript questions about the book and then I want to get onto some of the other books you've worked on. Um, it certainly had a history in this book.

[00:26:16] That's actually the next question is, is about the history. Yeah. Of all the books I've written, this, this is the one, um, there's one other book which is, which is sort of still, still living and still, which is a book called Hellraisers. Um, which I wrote, which whenever somebody mentions a book they've read of mine, it's nine times out of 10, it's that one. Um, but the battle of the bomb back of the bomb is also the, the other one as well, which is fascinating.

[00:26:44] And, and what was great for me on a personal level was, um, being a, being a bomb fan since I was a kid and going to bomb conventions and getting in autographs from bomb personalities and talking to them and stuff. And then for that to sort of, I mean, I, you know, I just wrote a book that saw, I don't want to, I don't, not involved in the films, but for, for, to go to places where people come up to me and talk to me about the, and want me to sign the book and stuff is, it's been a privilege really. It's really amazing.

[00:27:15] Um, amazing, you know, to, to meet people and talk to people who really enjoyed the book and stuff. So, and it's weird for being a fan for, for, for that, you know, it's weird sometimes because I'm thinking I'm a fan. So what, why are the, you know, I shouldn't, it's, it's a weird situation to be in, you know, but, um, yeah. Well, you know, it's, um, it's one thing I've noticed over the years of doing this show is that there really seems to be a push from certain places to control the narrative about

[00:27:42] not only Bond, but other franchises, Star Wars, all these sorts of things, you know. Um, and it's a shame that, you know, your stories, this book in this is not, is not a fictional thing. This is based off of letters that you have seen, the real documents. It's not, it's not you sort of sharing, sharing your opinions. It's basically fact. Yeah. Um, especially the reprinted letters that they are fact, you can't really argue with it. And so, you know, it feels like someone's trying to control that narrative and spin it.

[00:28:11] And that, I thought that's a real shame because really we should be able to put everything into the light and judge it by the reality instead of the fiction that's being spun, which is all very, very heady, but. Well, no, no, I think, I think, I think it's, it's related, related to something that's happening to me at the moment. Actually, I think, I think, um, I'm, I've written a book and I've interviewed about 70 people for it. And, uh, and now the book, the publisher said, we have to, you have to go back to all those people you interviewed and get them to sign a form to say that they're happy for

[00:28:40] their quotes to be in the book. And I've said to them, why do I do that? Because I've got the emails where they've said, yes, I will talk to you for this book as if they need to sign a document now. So it's, I think the world is, I don't know if people are scared of being sued or, or it's getting so ridiculously, um, bureaucratic and. I'm glad we haven't encountered that yet because there's, yeah, there's been some dissenting voices on our interviews before.

[00:29:07] And I think like, you know, yeah, well, I'm sorry you're going through that. I think that's a silly position to be in. And I, well, yeah, it's just interfering with my other work, but it's, I think it's, I think it's symptomatic of what's going on. I'm afraid. Yeah. I, I, I heard this recently. I don't remember who quoted this. They said we live in a post truth world. Um, how real that true that is, but it's an interesting concept. Yeah. So it's about narrative and controlling it. Um, anyway, back to the story of this book.

[00:29:37] And I, and it's this, another listener question came in through Twitter. Uh, the wizard of ice supplied this question. I think it's a good question. Cause I was going to ask it too. Have you ever had any interest? And you mentioned this briefly earlier. Hadn't you interest of telling the story inside this book into a film or a TV series or something? Oh yeah. We've had, um, one, one chap did approach me, but I think he was just the guy I mentioned before. He was, he was enjoying just going to Cannes and driving a Porsche. I think, I don't think he was making films.

[00:30:06] I just think he was interested in driving a Porsche around Cannes. Um, yeah, I, I mean, I think it would make a, I think it'd make an interesting stage play as well. Um, and I think it would make a fascinating sort of drama documentary, um, type of thing. Cause it's a court case, isn't it? People love court cases. Um, Oh yeah. Yeah. So I've been approached a few times about possibly doing it as a documentary.

[00:30:33] There was a producer a few years ago who was obsessed with doing it as a, as a documentary for about five years. Every six months, he replied, he would send me an email saying, is it still, can I still, and he was developing it for about five years, but nothing happened, unfortunately. So I think, I think there's potential there for some, but I, again, I think, I think maybe in the end people back away because they're scared of the lawyers coming along.

[00:30:59] Um, because you are, you are encroaching upon that world, aren't you? Um, whether you could visualize, whether you can, um, dramatize it in a way. I, I had a fascinating way of, um, starting the book because the, this guy who's, who looked after McClory's house in the Bahamas and it was falling to pieces. You know, it was, it was damp. There were cockroaches everywhere. The, the swimming pool, you know, the end of never say never again, when Connery's

[00:31:29] in the swimming pool and passenger brings him his cocktail. That was, that was McClory's house. Um, it was full of, it was like green sludge in it. You know, it had gone to rack and ruin. Um, it was really sad. So my, my, um, I would have started the, any potential sort of film with, with almost

[00:31:53] like, um, Citizen Kane, you know, going into Xanadu and it's all sort of cobwebs and it's all sort of former glories of, have gone, you know, I would have started it, started it like that. And maybe someone's looking through all the filing cabinets and brings out this and the, the story starts, you know? So I think, I think you can fictionize it in that way, but whether you could actually bring elements of, of the Bond film into it.

[00:32:22] Um, cause there were letters, letters from McClory saying that he'd bought, um, a scuba gear and he was learning to scuba in his local swimming pool. Um, and he was thinking of, um, adventures for James Bond, you know, and I'm driving in my car and I'm thinking all the time he was thinking, thinking of where Bond could go and what Bond could do, you know? So you could almost have McClory fantasizing and, and, and that way you could tell the story.

[00:32:49] So, um, so in his, in his mind, his Bond is having adventures and things. So you could do it in that, that, that way, but whether you could actually reproduce scenes from Thunderbolt, I don't know. Um, but I think, yeah, I think it's, it's definitely got potential. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen so many, um, like, uh, biopics made of the life of Ian Fleming. Um, well certainly there's been a few child starts did one and, uh, to mixed results.

[00:33:16] Um, so I think that, well, I was trying to be nice, uh, to be fair. I don't think the Ian Fleming estate likes me very much anymore after, after this, we've probably got targets in our back now too. Um, well that's, let's, uh, you know, I'm a big fan of this book and if you can find a copy online for a reasonable price, I'd say track it down. It's, it's, it's an eye opener, I would say. Thank you. Um, but you've got other Bond books and there are other, well, plenty of other books anyway,

[00:33:44] outside of just Bond, but let's talk about Bond because we're talking about spy movies. You know, you went on to do, I think it's two more looking at my list here. So you've got when, uh, Harry met Cubby in 2019 and then the, um, the search for Bond in 2024. And, uh, I was talking to, I think a friend of ours, I think David Lover-Jalice wrote something in the search for Bond for you. I think there's something connected with that. Is that right? I think, I think he did a little blurb. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[00:34:12] Um, that's how, that's how I came across that one for sure. Lovely chap, David. No, that was very nice to do that. Yeah. What is it like after going through this experience for this film, but this book, I should say, what made you want to go back to Bond and write more books because of just like the fear? Yeah, I didn't. I didn't really. I didn't. Um, cause people were asking me cause I was going to, going to do these Bond, uh, you know, so not conventions, but I was doing, you know, uh, yeah, Bond, Bond events and

[00:34:42] things. You know, I was doing a few and people were saying, well, what's net, are you going to do another of a Bond book? And I said, no, probably not. Cause by then I was doing, um, I think I'd written Hellraisers, which was quite a success. So I thought, no, I'm going to go off doing these kinds of books now. I don't want to do Bond. Okay. And also I thought there wasn't anything left to say or tell because by that, the, the, uh, or even before battle for Bond, there was, uh, quite a, a surplus of Bond books on the market.

[00:35:11] I think everything, everything had been covered. Um, so I thought if I'm going to do another Bond book, it has to rival the battle for Bond in a way. It's got to be new and it's got to discover things and it's going to be, um, you know, different. Um, and I, I didn't see anything out there. Um, but I did start, I did have this idea to do search for Bond. That was the, the idea.

[00:35:40] I thought, I get, that's a good idea because it's again, it's no one's done it. No one's done a book listing all the actors who, who, who almost became Bond, who screen tested or viewed, thought about it, rejected it. And I thought that would make something interesting. So I started researching quite soon after battle for Bond actually, about six months after I started researching that and I started interviewing people.

[00:36:06] Um, and a lot of those interviews are in, in the 2024 edition because a lot of the people I spoke to are dead. So I was lucky that I, a lot of people who, who I wouldn't have been able to interview if I started the book last year. Um, but I couldn't find a publisher. No one, no one was interested in publishing it. So I sort of put it up. I stopped interviewing people and I, I put it in, you know, in limbo and, uh, haven't, didn't return to it until, until a couple of years ago.

[00:36:34] Um, and then I had the idea to do, um, the Bond producer book, mainly because I came up with the title when Harry McCubbin, I thought that's such a great title. Cause titles are so good. They're impossible. They, they come to you like that or you got, you never have them and you end up with a really bad title. But that just popped into my head and I thought, well, I've got to write the book now because the title is too good. It was almost, it was almost like that.

[00:37:01] Cause it was, but, um, and again, you know, no one's meant to be, it's meant to be when that happens, you know, like you are meant to write that. But again, I thought, you know, no, no, no one's the, the, the, I mean, Cubby did write his own book. Um, which is quite anodyne, but, but it's, it's interesting, but, um, there's nothing on Harry, you know, nothing was written on Harry. Um, I think I want, I think I wanted to do a book on Harry first, actually just Harry. And I contacted his kids and they weren't really interested because I think they wanted

[00:37:31] to do their own book on him. So a few years passed and then I got back in touch with them again and they, and then I realized that they probably weren't going to do it. So I, I, I, I sort of said, well, I'll, I'll go ahead and do it myself. And I thought, well, not, I, instead of just doing Harry, I'll do both of them. Um, so that was the idea. And, um, that was, that was fascinating. I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed that book.

[00:37:58] Um, well, it's also good that someone else is talking about Harry Sortsman, because again, that's another person who in sort of the Bond lineage has sort of been shuffled off a little bit. It's all about Cubby Broccoli and less about Harry. Totally. And it was, but it was less about, it was, it was, um, what I wanted to focus on was the partnership. What was that, what was that special alchemy that made it work? Why, why, why was it them two together that made Bond so special? Um, cause they all brought something different. Harry brought something different than Cubby did.

[00:38:28] Um, Cubby brought something that Harry couldn't bring. Uh, I thought that was fascinating. Um, and also they're, they're interesting people in their own right as well. And I mean, Harry went off and did the, the Harry Palmer films. I interviewed Len Dayton again. Um, he did battle of Britain and play dirty, some interesting films. Cubby was pretty much shackled the bond. Wasn't he did Chitty Bang Bang. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, I enjoyed, I enjoyed writing that.

[00:38:58] Um, it wasn't as revealing as it could have been because there were a few interviews that, that I was hoping to get that in the end, I didn't get. Uh, it would have been nice to have talked to Barbara and Harry's kids. Um, that would have made the book a little bit more personal, a bit more interesting, but, you know, they, they, they weren't happy to talk. So you make the most of it, but I think it's a pretty decent, um, pretty decent, decent book. Yeah.

[00:39:28] And then the search for Bond, I was listening to, I think, I can't remember what show you you were on, uh, talking about that recently with John Beesdale, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and, and, you know, so listening through that cause I haven't read a book. I'll be honest. I haven't read it yet. It hasn't been, it hasn't been out that long really. No, but like you, you're talking to people like, you know, Michael Billingham and stuff that have all these, like the, the, the, the would be bonds and the, you know, and understanding that story of like the Sam Neills and the, the, the, the, the, the James Brolins of the

[00:39:57] world, like that screen test is online with James Brolin. And we interviewed Vijay Amritaraj, I think it was last year or a while back. And he, he screen tested with Brolin and it's like, it's interesting to see that world together. Yes. They did the meeting, didn't they? When they, when they meet with the snake and all that kind of stuff is fascinating, isn't it? It's weird that Vijay was cast before they were going to cast the new bond. Yeah. Um, but yeah.

[00:40:23] So, I mean, if, um, if people listening to this and sort of tuned into here about the battle for Bond, um, obviously I'd tell them to pick up all of your books, but if there was one to pick up next, what would you recommend? Out of your Bond assortment? Um, well, both of them really, I think, um, the, the Bond producers and search for Bond, I think you don't have to buy them, you know, get them from your local library, you know? Um, but I think I'll find something interesting in both of them. I think, I think they, they, they both tell an interesting story.

[00:40:50] Um, the, the Bond producers book is a, it's more of a story. I think the search, the search for Bond is, is obviously it's chronological. So, so it's, um, you know, it tells the story in that way, but it's a, it's a bit more, bit more, um, you know, bitty because it's lots of different things happening. It's not, it's not a, it's not a linear story. So it's not a beginning and an end really. Um, cause there's, we don't know who the new Bond is, do we? Of course. No.

[00:41:17] Um, I was hoping, yeah, I mean, what, what are your views on, on that? Because obviously the book has come out and, and the, and the decision hasn't been made, has it? I mean, my whole thing is like when they were, you know, casting Daniel Craig, uh, very few people in the world were like, give us Daniel Craig. We demand Daniel Craig. And they made the right choice. Like I tend to find the majority of human beings are terrible at casting. Like they just don't get it. Yeah.

[00:41:45] And so I, I do have trust. I want to have trust in the people who are going to handle Bond that they do know what is going to not just work, but exceed people's expectations. So it's easy for me to say, Oh, Henry Cavill or Aaron Taylor Johnson look like good Bonds, but I don't know what they want to do with Bond. Do they want to do something more comedic? Then maybe they're not the best choices. It just depends on what tone they're going for, what the movie is going to be like. Yeah. So yeah.

[00:42:14] And also it's not, it's not the individual actors choice. Is it really? It depends where, where they're going to take bonds and whether the actor wants to go that way, you know? Hmm. So we, we should wait. I think that, I think now Amazon have got their hands on it. I think, I think they're going to move. I think they want to move quickly, don't they? So I can expect, I expect it to be done, you know, within a few weeks, not a few weeks. Who knows? I think like a time of recording versus time of release might be a slight discrepancy, but

[00:42:43] this episode, but I think there's also, um, I know there's a waiting period from announcement to the actual deal going through before they can actually announce anything. Amazon's. So I don't know if we're past that point yet. I think it's May in my head. Yes. Um, but I, I feel like they probably got a schedule lined up and they're going to announce it at some point. Like you're going to get X, Y, and Z in the next two to three years. Once that has gone through. Um, I think, I think we'd be foolish to think that there aren't meetings going on this very week with people who are going to be playing bond. Yeah.

[00:43:13] They might even know already who they want. They might want more than one bond. Of course. I, I, I, I'm, I'm positive about this whole thing. I, a lot of people were quite pessimistic about it. I was mostly pro Daniel Craig era. Um, there's some choices I'm not a fan of, but you know, that's, I can say that about all of the eras, but ultimately like we were sort of stagnant for too long, I think. And, and once no time to die happened, it felt like everything just stopped. And I think at least I'm going to, I'm going to give Amazon the benefit of the doubt personally

[00:43:42] first and let them see what they do. I think, you know, once bit or twice shy. So I'll, after that, I think let me down originally and maybe I won't trust them as much, but I think they've got some good people in charge with a proven track record. Uh, Heyman specifically. Uh, so yeah, I, I think, I think the future is optimistic. Yeah. Cause I, um, as I say, I think, I think they might be. Casting bonds, not one bond. I mean, obviously the film bond is the, is the, is the, the main thing, isn't it?

[00:44:11] Uh, but I think there will be, there will be offshoots. I hope they do a period, you know, bonding the fifties, bonding the sixties, bonding the seventies kind of thing as a sort of a Netflix kind of thing, you know, um, like a mini studios or something that would be interesting. Cam, uh, cohost cam here, uh, the other, my other half here, um, came up with an idea on a, on an episode we did a while back or as a guest spot somewhere and said about the like having a TV show that explored the origins of the double O program.

[00:44:39] And I think that that's, then you could have your period piece. You could have like your megalomaniacal villains with rockets that make more sense in the 1950s than necessarily they do now. Yeah. Like how to deal with escalating threats. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we obviously need double O's. What is a double O? We're going to lay that out. Like, I think that could work as like a mini series or something. Yeah. I can say, I can, I can, I can see, uh, I can see that working. Yeah. That's an interesting idea. Probably something they've never thought about. Well, they know, they know who to call.

[00:45:09] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's interesting because everyone's saying, oh, there's going to be a Q spinoff for a money penny, but then no one's thought of, yeah, no, the, the actual, not the origin of Bond himself, but the origin of the double O's. Yeah. Cause you could have double O one, like who was that person? Who was the origin of the double O program? That's a, that's an interesting premise. And then, and then you can have your like original Hugo Drax's and stuff where it's just a rocket in the middle of Dorset. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's far lamer than Moonraker the film, I suppose, but it is content.

[00:45:38] It makes sense to the 1950s. And it also lets you do the sort of, um, uh, you know, the, the, the period piece. Hmm. Talking about the double O's there's a great idea in Thunderbolt, you know, the briefing scene in the, in the huge room and the, the, the double O's are seated there. The original idea, um, I don't know whose idea, whether it was Mabom or Harry, probably

[00:46:02] was that all the double O's were going to be recognizable actors who had played spies in movies. So you probably would have had McGowan, who was, who was danger man. You might've had Patrick, who stayed, you might've had, um, you know, Robert Vaughan and McCallum. It was going to be like them, you know, uh, that was a great idea. So all the double O's are movie spies, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I just, I want the world where like, uh, Matt, like Dean Martin sat there as Matt Helm

[00:46:31] in the corner, just drinking. That's the scene I want. Yeah. Mispronouncing all the names of all the agents. Yeah. Uh, Derek, Derek Flint's like asleep on two chairs laying across them for some reason. Uh, yeah. Yeah. The interesting thing is they're already sort of, you know, and this was only the fourth Bond film, but already they're sort of, you know, thinking of in jokes and, and already self parodying themselves in a way. Yeah.

[00:47:00] Well, people seem to think that like, and this is just more like a general chat about spy movies, which we're going to get to in a second, but they tend to think that Bond invented the spy film, which is completely incorrect. Like they were going for years before. Look at North by Northwest, but then Bond spoofs were happening in the sixties. It wasn't an Austin powers invention. Like the, the Matt Helm films obsessively are Bond spoofs a lot of the time. They don't resemble the actual Matt Helm source material. So, uh, yeah, they, they, they, they, they just having fun. Yeah.

[00:47:29] That was the casting of Dean Martin. Wasn't it? That did that. Um, yeah, purely if you had something like Rod Taylor or something like that, who do they would have had more age with it, but then he had his own bond spoof. The liquidator. He did that. And that was a, yeah, a crazy little film too. With, with, um, Joel St. John as the villain. Yeah. I love the, uh, the Flint films are my favorite sort of Bond spoof. Yeah. I think they're the most successful cinematic ones of the bunch.

[00:47:58] They, they look like feature films. The first one is so good. Yeah. It's terrific. The second one devolves into talking to dolphins. So yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, devolves. It's fun. I think, I think the first, I'm on Flynn is almost as good as a bond. It's, it's, it's very close to being just as good. And then even that has a little nod to it where he meets like triple O eight and they ask about, Oh, this is bigger than specter or whatever, or bigger than smirsch. I think. And very much like Connery doesn't he? He's almost a Connery look. Isn't he the same hair and the same features? Yeah.

[00:48:28] That's, uh, that's the kind of thing of two, two universes sort of. So flow. So Flint and Bond, which we could talk now, don't we Marvel universe. Which you didn't back then people didn't. But, but, but our man Flynn has, has Bond and Flynn existing in the same world. Yeah, for sure. And, and technically speaking, the man from uncle has JB driving around Las Vegas with them with, uh, Lazenby coming back to the row in the eighties. That's right. So it's all connected, I guess. Yeah.

[00:48:58] Also triple X, you had Bond getting killed at the start of the movie. Yeah. Yeah. That was originally meant to be the son of Bond. The whole triple X thing was, uh, that was, that was a pitch for it. We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Agent, we don't expect you to talk. We expect you to buy a subscription to our Patreon. Eee. That's right. Over on the SpyHards Patreon, we're covering all your favorite spy TV shows, as well as popular

[00:49:25] films from the most iconic secret agent actors of all time. Cam, why don't you share some intel on our latest assignment? Scott, do you know what time it is? It's time to catch up on our April offerings over on the Patreon. That's right. We had reviews of the Jungle Book and Wallace and Gromit, Curse of the Were-Rabbit as part of our animated April celebration. Plus we did an Andor season one look back in preparation for season two.

[00:49:55] People head on over. It's where the excitement is. So deactivate Ghost Protocol and visit patreon.com slash spyhards to truly do things angel style. But before we close, Channel D, on with the Spy Jigs. I'm cognizant that we've had you here for almost two and a half hours talking about your book. And I'm sure you want to have... We've been getting away, yes. We've been having fun. Bond fans in the pub really, aren't we? Sorry.

[00:50:25] That's it. I wish I had a pint with me. Yes, I think there's a distinct lack of alcohol involved, but apart from that... Well, I think next time you're going to a Bond event, you should let me know, because I'm going to bring my copy down and I'm going to get a signature saying with like a little, you know, to the Ian Fleming Foundation and then sign for me or something. But, you know, it's... We spoke about the other Bond books, but one question I kind of will wrap us up with and I have one more question is, you know, you've written many other books apart from Bond.

[00:50:55] Lots of ITC, Pink Panther. There's all sorts of things in your back catalogue of books are definitely worth checking out for sort of genre fans and the Hellraiser book you mentioned as well. What is it you're working on currently? Is there anything you can sort of share or tease about what's coming for the future for you? I work... Well, I suppose talking about genre is I'm writing an authorised biography of Brian Clemens. Okay. Who was sort of the creative force behind the Avengers.

[00:51:26] I mean, he didn't create the show, but he sort of during the Diner Rig era, he sort of took it over and sort of it became very much his show. So, and he did a couple of Hammer films as well and he created the professionals and the new Avengers. So that's, that's an issue. And he kept talking about an archive. I mean, he literally kept everything. I mean, he's got letters from people from his neighbours who were complaining about it being too, too noisy at night.

[00:51:57] You know, he kept every correspondence, which is remarkable really. And I'm coming across amazing stuff. And he was, he had about seven Bond ideas. I think there's at least, that's, I think that's what they said, five, at least five or six, um, Bond projects. He met, he met Broccoli and Saltzman on a couple of occasions and he wrote Bond storylines we haven't seen yet, but I've seen them in the file. It says James Bond ideas.

[00:52:26] So I'll have a look next time I go. So, um, that's interesting. Yeah. So, uh, and he wrote in a mission impossible film as well. Um, are we talking in the sort of down period between the sixties and the nineties where there was not a lot of mission? I'm not sure make more than likely. Yes. I don't think the modern one. No, no. I mean, somebody, someone has a lovely quote about Brian Clemens saying that most people on their day off or on a Sunday went out and did a bit of gardening.

[00:52:54] Uh, Brian would sit down and write a screenplay. Um, he was incredibly prolific. Um, there's about, I think they've got about 40 or 50 scripts that were never filmed. What did he, um, it's a film that we've had a lot of history with on the show on spy hearts, but what did he think of the, uh, nineties Avengers film? Aided it. I can imagine. Movie A. He's got a, he's got a folder file in one of his cabinets with, with all the bad reviews. So he took the delight in, in keeping all the bad reviews.

[00:53:25] Yeah. Cause, cause he wasn't, I think it was a, he was a bit annoyed that they, that they didn't come to him for, to be a creative consultant or something like that on it. Um, cause you know, no one knows the Avengers more than Brian Clemens did. Um, sure. So yeah, I think he was a bit wounded that, you know, he was the sort of font of all knowledge about the Avengers and he, and he, and he wasn't approached and, and they did get it pretty much all wrong.

[00:53:49] So, uh, so I think he took delight in it, in it, in its, um, in its, um, evisceration destruction. It's downfall. Yeah. It's, uh, we've had, we had the director on and the screenwriter for the film over the years. And it's like, uh, they had good intentions, but I don't think they quite delivered on the promise. I think it was cut to pieces as well. Wasn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. They chopped out like 20 minutes of goofiness. That's sort of a sort of typical Avengers, uh, quirkiness.

[00:54:18] I think it was also sort of sets up the characters a little bit more. Yeah. You know, the, the director still like trying to push for it to be released, but I don't think I'll ever see the light of day. I mean, it would be lovely to say that, but quirkiness for quirkiness sake didn't, didn't, you know, there, there was, I would say logic behind the quirkiness in the Avengers, but, but the quirkiness in the film didn't, didn't hit the mark. It sort of missed. Um, there was a special quality about the surrealness in the TV show that the, the film

[00:54:47] just misses. There was also a lot of just studio interference in every aspect, not just, you know, editing or whatever. I mean, just in terms of the entire vision of the movie. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got that on, on the bird. Anything else you could tease? Um, I'm doing a book on sitcoms, TV sitcoms. Okay. Um, I'm a big comedy fan. Um, and, um, I've got a book coming out at the end of the year, um, which is an official

[00:55:17] history of the Royal film performance. Um, and there were a couple of, a couple of, a couple of three Bond films, which would have been Royal films. Um, you know, there's always one. Um, each year there's a, there's a film that's shown it's a wrote the Royal film performance in the Royal family. So the queen used to turn up now it's the king, of course, or it's, um, you know, Prince and Princess of Wales who turn up sometimes the gladiator two was, was, was the Royal film last year.

[00:55:45] Um, and that's coming out and that's quite heavily illustrated with, with some lovely pictures. And, uh, I think three, three Bond films were, were Royal films. I think Dying Another Day was a Royal film performance. Oh boy. It was at the Royal, that huge premiere at the Royal Albert Hall. Um, Was that the last time they did it by any chance? That was the first time they'd done a Royal film. Okay. I think, I think that's the first time they'd ever done a film premiere at the Royal Albert Hall, I think. Um, and then. Uh, Spectre.

[00:56:15] Spectre was a Royal film and that was at the Royal, uh, Royal Albert Hall as well. Um, and I think, I think Casino and Casino Royale was a Royal film as well. So there are three, three, three. Oh, there's one good one. Yes. And, um, so there'd be lots of nice pictures of Daniel Craig on the red carpet. So if that's your bag. Well, it looks good in a tux. Does he look pained to be there?

[00:56:42] Uh, it's the one where he's wearing, I didn't like that thing he wore for no time to die. That was, it looked like a velvet. Salmon jacket or whatever it was. Oh. It didn't suit him at all. That was the, I'm out the door kind of celebratory tux. Yeah. That's the, I think it was his attempt to be Jason King and it didn't quite work. Hmm. Well, plenty to look out for then on the horizon for yourself.

[00:57:11] Now, the last question we have for you before I let you go. Um, and this is asked to everyone who's ever been on the show and we never prep anyone for it. It's a, it's very much a off the cuff question. So don't worry. You'll get time to think, but we will all be watching you whilst you do it. I made a long time to think. I'm judging. Yeah. Um, we talk about spy movies here, not just James Bond. We're spy movie fans and you know, you clearly are too. So I, you know, I, I, I want to hear from you, Robert Sellers.

[00:57:40] What is your favorite spy movie of all time? Uh, non bond. Anything. It can be anything you'd like. Well, the obvious one would be Thunderball, wouldn't it? I suppose. But so I won't bring it home. I won't. I won't. I'll do a non bond spy film. It would be North by Northwest. Nice. Very good. I would understand arguments made that that's the greatest spy movie of all time. Yeah. I mean, a close second is, is our man Flynn because, because he's very Bondian.

[00:58:08] Um, but I think, um, North by Northwest is, is, yeah, it's just, it's one of the best thrillers ever made. Um, and there is a, um, a battle for bond connection because there is a letter from Oliver Bryce who, who's sailing from, um, New York to Southampton on the Queen Mary. And they used to show films and he's, that's where he saw North by Northwest.

[00:58:34] And he wrote to Fleming saying, I've just seen this amazing film, uh, North by Northwest. And it's what we want to do. This is the film that we want to make for Bond. Uh, and that, that instigated the, the Hitchcock going for Hitchcock. Right. Um, because they want, they wanted their film to be like North by Northwest, which is this, this, um, this sort of suspense thriller, but with a sort of a, a humor, a comedy element because it, it's quite, it's very funny North by Northwest. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a great humor in that film.

[00:59:04] Like all Hitchcock films have humor in, even Psycho has, has humor. So that's that. So yes, Bryce watched North by Northwest and thought this, this is the film that we should try and emulate. So, yeah. And Ian kind of did with, uh, from Russia with love. Absolutely. Yes. They, they, they did pay homage, didn't they? To, to the, to the, the, so that was a very interesting. Yeah. Um, that's putting it mildly 007.

[00:59:32] Oh, well, it's been a genuine pleasure talking about, uh, the battle for Bond and everything else you've worked on. I think, I think you've already punched your ticket for another visit back to the show down the road, talking about some more of your books. I'm sure there'd be another James Bond book in your future as well, or maybe a spy movie book. Why don't, why don't you make that or something you could. I think, I think there's a few out there, isn't there? I think there are, there are a few out there. I think I own them all for sure, but there's not, there's none that I would say are particularly exhaustive.

[00:59:59] Like say like a, a sixties, you know, the Bond mania book doesn't exist. Yeah. I think that's a, that's a good idea, but I'm giving away ideas for free here. So, you know, just give us credit in the, in the, like in the, in the byline at the front, uh, for Cam and Scott, they're idiots. I'll give you 1% of royalties, which would be nothing probably. But hey, it's more than we get now. So I'll take it. Uh, I mean, Hey, even like the cinematic history of Harry Palmer would be interesting, especially when you're doing like billion dollar brain. Yeah.

[01:00:29] Cause Len, Len is still around, isn't he? Yeah. And you can talk about the nineties films as well. Well, well, I did. Well, they're the worst. They're terrible, aren't they? They're dreadful. Dreadful. They're, what is it? Moscow Vendetta? What, what? Bullet to Beijing and a midnight in St. Petersburg. Oh, that's why I use it. I've blurred them from my, from my memory, but I, I did interview, um, Sydney Fury.

[01:00:57] Cause I wrote a book called don't let the bastards grind you down, which was about the kitchen sink films and the working class actors that came through in Britain in the, in the late fifties, like Kane Connery, Terry stamp, Finney, race, O'Toole, those were sort of working class actors. Um, and I did, I interviewed Sydney J. Fury about if Chris file, um, and use some of

[01:01:24] it in, in the bond producers book, fascinating stories about that film, really interesting stories. There's still, I think that I think it's a really, uh, it's a well that's worth mining. I think people would want to hear about like the anti bond. I went and saw Rip Chris file on the big screen last year at the BFI. And I just thought like, what people should be watching this film? One of the best photographs. I mean, some people find it irritating, don't they? Another, but I like it. All those shots through angles and stuff.

[01:01:53] It can be a bit oppressive. I find, but like, I, I, I appreciate that there's something different compared to everything else you're getting in the sixties. It is a unique vision of a spy movie. But the story is true that that first day he turned up and he ripped the script in half in front of the whole production crew. That's a true story. Don't, don't, don't give it away. Now it's got to put it in a book. Um, Robert, it's been a pleasure. We'll have to do this again sometime. Uh, thank you for sitting down with us.

[01:02:20] I know everyone listening has really enjoyed this and, uh, yeah, I wish you all the best with the next book. I've hoped I've been, you know, cause I'm, I've just turned 60 and I'm the, I'm slowing down. I'm starting to, I'm, I'm, you know, starting to slow. My brain is not quite as fast as it used to be. Um, well, at least you had until 60. I mean, I'm long gone and I'm, I'm 44. The beauty of writing is that you can sort of take your time and you sit in front of your

[01:02:48] computer and you research your leisure as it were, you have a deadline, but it's usually a few months in advance. So, so you can take your time and do it. But then, um, when you've got to dredge it all up and talk to people about it, it's it's and sometimes it doesn't come as, as intelligently as you would hope. So I hope, I hope I've made sense and I hope I've been of interest and interesting, but, uh, the cogs, the, the, the cogs are a little bit, a little bit slower now, I'm afraid.

[01:03:15] You, uh, you give yourself, uh, uh, lack of credit there. I think you were perfectly great. I think there was some wonderful stories in there. And I think for those who have listened to this and are listening to this point to the end now who haven't bought a copy of the battle for bond or the search for bond or want to go and check out anything, I think they'll be sold and you'll be selling copies by the end of this because there are stories to be, to be read about. And I know people will enjoy those books. So it gets a firm stamp of approval from us. And, uh, yeah, we will, we will have to do this again sometime. Yes.

[01:03:44] My, my drinking, my drinks cabinet is looking a bit forlorn at the moment. So, so, so, uh, that's a nice royalty check. Circus spyhards. Uh, yeah, I'll see what I can do, but, uh, Robert, thank you very much. Lovely. Thanks very much guys. Really appreciate it. Really enjoyed it. Bye bye. Holy smokes. There you go, folks. Part two, Robert Sellers in the bag.

[01:04:14] Mind blown. Yeah. This was a fascinating look at a world we don't cover typically, you know, cause we talk about the movie world or sometimes the TV world, um, ad nauseum week to week on spyhards. I'm sick of it. Sick to death. But you know, to hear Robert Sellers take us on this kind of guided tour of the literary world and the publishing world and the controversies that can happen. And it was just great. Honestly, I have not read the book because I can't get access to it unless I pay a lot of money.

[01:04:44] Um, it's just not a book that circulates a lot around here in Canada. And so like, I felt like I was an observer, but one who was getting to hear a fantastic story being told. Yeah. I mean, firstly, you, you still got a back catalog of copies of little drummer girl to get through before you could read it anyway. No shortage of those in Canada. There really aren't. Some say you use it for Kindle. That's right. I use them for everything. I'm eating them. I'm eating pages every day for meals.

[01:05:13] I'm wasting away people. Oh, think of the fiber though. It's worth it for that. Surely. Uh, well, you know, it is an interesting one to discuss because yeah, we don't often get into the literary side of, of spy stories. So we don't talk about books particularly on the show. You know, I've, I've read most of the Fleming stories and I think Cam's read them all, but barring that I've not really expanded further because it's not really the side of it that takes my interest by movies is my love.

[01:05:39] I know Cam feels the same way, but this story is tied into spy movies. It's tied into Thunderball before it was a film. And so this is where that, that sort of books legacy comes from. But what fascinates me more about this story is the, is the story of the book itself. Hmm. Like there are so few books that are pulped. And I went and looked at the list. It's actually less than you'd think. Um, there are some other countries in the world that seem to just burn every book they see. Right. But in the UK, not a lot.

[01:06:10] And to go to that extreme. And I use the word bullying in the interview. Mm hmm. And I, I'm sticking by that. Like I understand their take on it. And this is just my opinion. This is not fact I'm speaking here. This is just my opinion on the subject. But like to me, Robert was showing reproductions of letters that existed that were part of a public court case. So had every right to show them.

[01:06:37] Obviously they didn't challenge that and he reissued it without that. And they left that secondary version alone, but it only had a second print never had a third or a fourth. Mm hmm. And now he tries to bring it back and it gets shut down again, despite actually having less of the original source material in it the third time round. I just can't get my head around it. It feels like over protectiveness of a brand. Um, to me. And again, this is my opinion, but like you have the Ian Fleming estate. I mean, Ian Fleming is our brand.

[01:07:06] That is what supports them. And I think they are incredibly protective of the image and what is out there. And I think when you have something like the story featured in the battle for Bond, it is a lot about how other people like maybe Jack Whittingham or Kevin McClory have a little bit of a say in terms of the shaping of cinematic Bond, which is not the narrative they necessarily want out there.

[01:07:31] And also just kind of the dealings with, you know, was it ultimately fair as to how it shook out in regards to those two men being compensated for efforts they put forward into the story that became Thunderball. Mm hmm. I don't know. That's for the courts to decide, not for me to decide. But, you know, it's the kind of thing that makes sense to me why it happens. And, you know, Scott, you and I are Star Trek fans. And the name of Gene Roddenberry is something that for a long time was bandied about as basically

[01:07:59] a religion that one had to bow down to at Star Trek conventions. And over the years, more and more elements of the guy's biography have come out. And it's like, well, he was like most people, someone who had his demons, had his issues, had his insecurities. And those were a part of the creative process and ultimately what led to Star Trek as well. But they don't typically like to shine a light on them in the past. And now they do more so.

[01:08:26] And I feel like with Ian Fleming, there is still a little bit of that protective coating because of Bond being such a especially British institution. And I get it. Like you say, like a lot of people are making their livelihood off of the Fleming estate, let alone whatever descendants he has, but the people that run the estate, et cetera, et cetera. So I understand the protectiveness on that side of things. Yeah. And there are a lot of like writers who write continuation books and stuff that I'm sure want the name to be protected. Yada, yada, yada. I get it.

[01:08:53] So I understand the positioning, but this feels like a little bit of whitewashing of history sometimes. Like you look at another Bond connection. People always talk about Cubby Broccoli. Yeah. Less people talk about Harry Saltzman. Right. Yeah. Now, obviously, I know Harry had these problems too and kind of got himself thrown out of Bond by the time The Spy Who Loved Me rolled around. But there were decisions that were made along the way that were Harry's decisions.

[01:09:20] And some of those decisions, I'm sure, are fan favorite decisions. But now people really tend to think of the Broccoli name when they think of Bond. They don't think of Saltzman. Which is interesting. I mean, I do tend to look at the Harry Saltzman films that I can really look at as being Harry Saltzman led productions. So I look at like Live and Let Die. But I also look at a movie like The Ipcris File, which he is overseeing.

[01:09:46] And I see someone who is pushing much more for an artistic element or approach to the material versus like Cubby, which is a little more of the crowd pleasing blockbuster approach. Yeah. And you can argue back and forth which one you prefer personally. But it does show to me like Harry Saltzman was not a guy who was just hanging on. He's someone who genuinely was trying to do interesting things sometimes, whether they were ultimately leading to folly or not. Yeah. And you can only appreciate people trying to take a creative chance.

[01:10:16] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, again, we don't want any sort of hassle from any estate. So we're not going to get too much into our opinions, particularly like I've stated my case on what I think this is all is. But again, it's just mine and Cam's opinion. It's not fact. And you can all make up your own minds of whether this is a fair history of, you know, of what has happened to the book. Should the book have been republished? Should it have had its publishing?

[01:10:45] I want to hear from you guys what you think. Send us an email contact at spyhards.com. Let us know. The other thing I think is interesting. We sort of briefly discussed, but I think there is a wider discussion to have. I'm sure we'll have it online this week. The story of Thunderball, the making of it and the story of this book, or at least the story of making Thunderball to the point of the litigation in the sixties and then the re litigation from McClory later on.

[01:11:09] I genuinely think has the legs to be made into some sort of docudrama series or film down the road. Totally. I mean, I have watched documentaries about, you know, the Tim Burton Superman movie that never happened or the fantastic for Roger Corman film. And so, like, to me, there is a huge appetite in the world for documentaries based on film productions that, you know, didn't go right or, well, typically didn't go right.

[01:11:40] And whether the movie, whether it resulted in an actual movie or not, there's a fascination with that sort of thing. And to me, Bond just lends itself to that. Um, they would have to figure out a way to make it, um, you know, without any sort of, oh boy, you would have to be very careful in terms of putting that documentary together, uh, to not, uh, irritate Amazon or Eon's lawyers, but, um, Well, they could do it. They could make it themselves.

[01:12:09] Like Amazon could do that. They have the power to do it. They could, but they probably won't. No. Uh, would be my guess. They want to keep their new purchase looking pretty, uh, shiny for now. Um, but, uh, cause I, I just think of the way like Disney, once they got star Wars, like shut down anything extended universe gone. Well, like George Lucas used to be very open about the process. You know, you look at like, uh, episode one, there's a documentary on there called the

[01:12:37] beginning, which is like all the problems they were having shooting the movie. And, uh, then, you know, there was a series of books by, uh, I think it's, uh, Rinsler was the author's last name. Um, and they went into detail about each of the original films, all the ups and downs of the entire process. And he also wrote one about the force awakens over the course of production of that movie. And then Disney was like, no, that's never coming out because there was, you know, the fact they're

[01:13:06] tossing out scripts or Harrison Ford broke his leg and all these kinds of things. And they said, Nope, that's not the narrative. And if you watch the special features on the force awakens, blu-ray, I don't know why I'm talking about force awakens so much on these, uh, raps for, um, we've got very star Wars heavy, which is, I suppose it makes a nice change from star Trek though. I suppose it does. But, um, ultimately like if you watch those documentaries on the blu-rays, they are the biggest puff pieces ever where nothing went wrong and everyone had a great time. And they did right.

[01:13:36] No, of course, of course. No problems whatsoever. None. Yeah. It is. And we also just live in a world where everything is dictated by like NDAs and stuff like that. Like you can't tell the truth, particularly. And we've done interviews where we've had to cut stuff out. We've, we've been requested to cut stuff out in the past to not offend other people because they're still working with them. Yada, yada, yada. Yeah. We don't get a name names. That's, that's for them to request. And that's how it works.

[01:14:02] So we're not going to take part in that, but it is interesting that like there are more of a fear of reprisal now. Whereas you go back and listen to those, I think you can listen to them online. I've listened to them before. The, the commentaries on the Bond laser discs. Mm-hmm. Yeah. From, I think like Peter Hunt, Maybarn, maybe there's a couple of them. And they were done in like the nineties and it was before really like commentaries were a big thing.

[01:14:31] And so there was no rules and they were unhinged comparatively speaking. Right. And there's been a lot of those over time. There's been like, there's been commentary tracks recorded by directors and actors for films that never even got released because they got too off the hat, like off the handle with it. Yeah. Um, I don't know how I've sort of spiraled into this, but I guess to say like, they want to control the narrative these days. And I guess that goes back to the Ian Fleming thing.

[01:14:57] Like there, there is a control of the narrative and I guess it's easier to control the narrative when you just say the broccoli family were the, the pioneers of Bond and not to get into the murkiness of the Saltzman name and what happened later. Uh, yeah. And I guess that's sort of what's happening here with this book. And one wonders, Juan wonders, how many other books, not just on Bond, but on film and other things over the years that have been sort of shut down beforehand. Mm hmm.

[01:15:26] Like the, the, the studios have gotten wind of it and shut it down. Like I wonder how many we've missed out on because of that. Well, Bond casts a big spotlight. Yeah. So if something kind of happens, it's a little bit controversial or polarizing in that world. Everyone's going to hear about it, but there could be countless other book projects about things or subjects or people that you just don't really know that much about that could vanish. And we don't know those stories for sure.

[01:15:53] But speaking of vanishing, I think that's enough of us this week. You've, uh, you've stayed in for two episodes, folks. I'm really curious to know what you think of the two part structure for these longer form interviews, because there's been a few over the years that have gone towards the hour and a half, two hour, two and a bit front. And if you think it'd be better for us to break it up, um, let us know. It's no big drama on the editing side to do it either way, particularly. So whatever you would prefer, we would be keen to hear from you. But that was Robert Sellers.

[01:16:23] I want to thank Robert again for spending the time with us. I'm sure you will agree worth it. But Cam, the question I love to ask, what are we doing next week? Yes, we are jumping over to something somewhat Bond influenced. We're going to look at the 2024 Guy Ritchie film, Operation Fortune, Ruse de Guerre, starring Jason Statham and Aubrey Plaza. A film that in some countries just disappeared.

[01:16:51] Well, we just finished talking about a, uh, you know, film production or film development that had a lot of controversies, such as the case with this film as well. Yeah. And, uh, we've also got a Spy Master interview for you this, well, next week, I should say on the Friday with one of the writers of the film. I won't spoil too much, but, uh, there is some behind the scenes information on this film as well. Yes. Yes.

[01:17:17] It's a movie that I think passed a lot of people by just for reasons that will make a lot of sense when you listen to the review or to the interview. Um, but one I think people have caught up with on streaming quite a lot. And so it'd be fun to dive into it. Yeah. There you go, folks. Your mission should you choose to accept it. And I hope you do is to join us next week as we take a look at Operation Fortune Ruse de Guerre. Um, make sure you hit the subscribe button wherever you're listening to us.

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[01:18:41] Come and find us at spyhards, S-P-Y-H-A-R-D-S, wherever you like to social your medias. We are hanging around there, often throwing out links to stuff that never gets any clicks because the algorithm doesn't like us. But we hope you like us. And that's really all we care about. But until next time, folks, I'm off to ponder the question. How bad do we have to get before they start pulping podcasts? We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye.