Richard Wenk on The Equalizer Trilogy - SpyMaster Interview #97

[00:00:36] Welcome to SpyHards Podcast, I'm Agent Scott. And I'm Cam the Provocateur, tiptoeing out of the Russian room, very quickly. Yeah, the police are on their way actually, you might want to get out of here. I'll take the heat, don't worry. Right, yes. Okay. It's our usual setup. That's right, you're the distraction, I'm the stealth escapee. He scurries off into the corner somewhere and hides in the dark. And weeps. Yeah, that's why he's the editor. That's right.

[00:01:03] Yeah. We're exploring, we're starting a new franchise this week, we're exploring the Equalizer franchise, and we've got one hell of an interview for you all. Yes, we are joined by Richard Wenk, the screenwriter behind all three Equalizer films, as well as some other movies you may be familiar with. For example, The Mechanic, which we covered on the show starring Jason Statham, the Magnificent Seven film with Denzel Washington, and many more.

[00:01:31] Yeah, the guy's got a fantastic filmography which we are about to dive into. So strap yourself in folks and get ready to equalize your podcast feeds. Let's get to it. Richard Wenk. We've been diving deep into the Equalizer franchise this week, and we couldn't think of a better man to talk to than the man who brought it to the big screen.

[00:01:59] You may know him from films like Expendables 2, The Mechanic, The Protégé, but he is the man behind the Equalizer. It is Mr. Richard Wenk. Hello, sir. How are you? Well, hello. What a great introduction. That's the best one I've ever had. So I'm going to save that one. Well, I'll send it to you as a clip afterwards. You can just, whenever you next get your awards, you can just play that on your lead up to get to your awards. Thank you.

[00:02:25] It's a great pleasure to have you on the show. We've just had a look at the first Equalizer film. We've got the second and third to go. But it's an interesting franchise. And I think before we get there, though, because you did the Mechanic before you did the Equalizer, but before all of this, you were directing films, even worked with John Huston back in the 80s. There's a lot of stories here. Yeah. But before even that, this crazy business of making films, what made you want to get into that realm?

[00:02:58] It started in high school. I had a back then they had, you know, what they called the free classes. You could take an extra class or two. And I had art of the film and I had a it's the classic. That was the teacher, the great teacher that inspired me.

[00:03:16] He showed all the D.W. Griffith films and Potemkin and broke films down and took us to the revival houses to see King Kong and any Billy Wilder movies and, you know, North by Northwest. So I sort of just got in love with movies. At the same time, I had another teacher, an English Lit teacher that we were we were reading Dickens and I was not a reader until I started reading Dickens.

[00:03:41] So telling stories and watching stories sort of blended together back then. And I made a film in high school with the class and and it was exciting and to see it, you know, developed and cut. And so it's just the process just was very intoxicating as a young man of 16 or 15, whatever. And so did that lead to like film school? So it did. It it led to NYU film school.

[00:04:12] Just ahead of me was Spike Lee, the Coen brothers, a couple others. And so I had the same teacher, film teacher that they did. And I loved it. The the one thing that occurred to me was at NYU was that they were teaching the physical making of films. And I was taking screenwriting and film and editing and things like that.

[00:04:39] But the actual business of show, you know, never discussed. And there was always talk about, you know, the foot up everybody at USC and UCLA had because they were in Hollywood in the business. So in between semesters, I would drive out to California, knock on doors and try to get advice from from people in the business. And he would just pretend that he would call their office and say, I met this person.

[00:05:07] I remember the one I met, the nicest one was Roy Disney, who was running Disney at the time. And I called up and I said, I met Roy in New York. And he said, if I was ever in California, I'd give him a call and he would have a meeting with me. And they set a meeting. And I went to the meet him. And the first thing he said is, we never met, have we? And I said, no, no, no. He goes, it's very clever. He says, so I got the first lesson was if you want to be a director, you're going to have to learn to write. That was that was his thing.

[00:05:37] So in between, I worked as a P.A. on after school specials. And I made my own after school kind of thing with the crew that I was working with and sold it to HBO, which was a short film, like a 22 minute short film. That's when HBO just started. So they needed interstitial stuff to get from, you know, an hour thirty five to, you know, the top of the hour. So buy these things.

[00:06:05] And I got mine on, bought and was on the was on the TV guide. So it was like you saw your own thing in the TV guide. So and from that, someone saw it. Roger Corman's company saw it. And I got a call. To to to if I was ever in L.A., they would love to meet with me. And because Roger loved the movie.

[00:06:35] And so I immediately flew to L.A. And met with his big producer named Donald Borchers. And he was he had made it made. Angel Eyes or a couple of the movies I had heard of. And he went in the closet and he came out with an easel and then he came out with a poster. And it said, well, it's right there. It said a van. Yeah. And that's exactly what he showed me.

[00:07:04] And he said, I need a movie to go with it. And he said, if you could write a movie with college kids, vampires and strippers, you can direct it. And I did. And I did. So that was sort of my foray into how movies get made. I was going to actually ask about that, because early on you have sort of dabbling in horror. Yeah. And I was curious if you were drawn to horror, but not so much. It was just opportunity being there. Yeah. It was really just sort of an opportunity.

[00:07:33] And I I didn't really know how to do it. I wasn't a horror movie aficionado. I like I went to see them, but that wasn't those. Those weren't the movies that I dreamed of making. But I had figured out if I could make it take place in one night, I would have I could have some fun with it. And it was I was oddly right around the same time Scorsese had made after hours.

[00:08:01] And I know Siskel and Ebert, when they reviewed man, compared it to after hours, which I thought was good because I was kind of like stealing from that. But no, it was just really sort of my my foot in the door. And not unlike everybody else that worked for Roger Corman. You know, they made very, you know, you know, B movie ish stuff, you know, boxcar Bertha and those kind of movies and Piranha, John Sayles and those kind of guys. That's where you start. And so it was sort of a good, great lesson.

[00:08:31] Now movies put together and also was the beginning of me not wanting to do both. OK, I was going to ask about that. Yeah. You know, I found that I'm. I write very visually, my scripts are kind of like you can see the movie. People don't call them. I call them they don't call them screenplays. They call a movie, you know, movies, you know. And. And so by the time I finished it, I kind of shot it already in my head.

[00:08:58] I've seen it and it was hard to replicate it on the first two movies I did. And I just started to realize that it also takes a long time, you know, from writing and conceptualizing the writing to rewriting to raising the money and casting to shootings and all that stuff. So years and stuff. So I think I decided that I'd save the directing part for my my my older years.

[00:09:27] It's funny, you sort of say about doing both jobs and sort of struggling with having the vision in your head and then maybe not being able to manifest it the way you want. Right. We had the exact same story earlier this year from Phil Alden Robinson, who made Field of Dreams, of course. Yeah. He was going to quit directing after that film because he just to him, it didn't come out the way he wanted in many ways, like despite it being a great, amazing film. And but he was talked back into it to do sneakers afterwards, fortunately, for the world.

[00:09:56] And I'm glad we got that. Yeah, it's interesting that that's sort of like there's a lot of pressure that you put on yourself to try and bring that vision to life. I think I was saved a little bit by working with John Huston, who I picked up a lot of stuff from him in terms of not envisioning everything. He was a very, very he let actors figure out how scenes were going to be blocked and things like that.

[00:10:23] It was always very odd to me because I always would go to lectures by, you know, Billy Wilder and Frank Capra, and they would talk about how they would stage a scene to cameras and everything else and use multiple cameras so they couldn't go here and this and that. And he was the opposite. And I asked him one day, I said, you know, you don't even ever tell him. He goes, well, I hired them for what they do. And that's all they think about is their characters and and what their motivations are. And I'm thinking about 50,000 things and they're thinking about one.

[00:10:52] I think they know more than me now. He does adjust, you know, can't go that far, whatever. But basically, I think that helped me a little bit in terms of imagining like like Grace Jones wasn't what I had in mind in band. And her her famous dance and that was not. You know, I'd written in the script that it was so sensational that the audience just, you know, in the club leapt to their feet. And after I saw it, I said, no one's leaping to their feet.

[00:11:20] I think their jaws are on the floor and I think we have to. So I had to reconceptualize the whole thing on the fly. So some of that was fun, you know, allowing that to sort of become. But I think that ultimately just the amount of time it takes to go from idea to finish film was so long. And a lot of heartbreak along the way. I feel like I'd be remiss. You sort of sprung the question into my head about Grace Jones there.

[00:11:50] I mean, you're working with her directly after her doing a view to a kill in 85. Just I mean, I don't really get to ask people about working with Grace Jones. What was that like? And did you ever get a Bond story out of her at all? I didn't get any Bond stories. I got that. Well, you know, the chair that she's dancing on in the movie is is a replica of her boyfriend's Dolph Lundgren's body. So no one knows that. But no, I tell you what, I thought she was.

[00:12:19] She was eccentric, extremely smart and. To me, helped me get through the movie. Oddly enough, I had really great actors, Robert Rustler, D.D. Pfeiffer, Chris Makepeace, what he wants to know be. But she brought Andy Warhol and Keith Haring and everybody with her.

[00:12:43] She was so immersed in this world and this character that inspired all kinds of things. So I loved working with her. And I would, you know, I think she I wish she had done 10 more movies. OK, so that's kind of like your you said foot in the door. I find that an interesting term because it feels like especially with the sort of the Disney story there, like a boot in the door.

[00:13:06] Because you you made that happen. You manifested that that start by making those phone calls and sort of getting your name into town. That's a lot of it for you. A lot. I mean, there was another one in New York where I found out I was working for a very famous Broadway librettist. And I in his Rolodex, I realized that Paddy Chesky lived across the street. So I dressed up as a messenger and I messengered my treatment over to his house.

[00:13:34] And then when I got back to work, my boss said, Paddy Chesky called. He wants you to come back and get your get your thing. And I got to meet him like through the doorway. But he did give me his agent's number and he said, I can't read it because it's just a legal thing. But you took it had a lot of balls to do that, kid. So here's my agent's name and you could chill me with you and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:13:59] So I think a lot of it back then was that, you know, we didn't have we didn't have cell phones or, you know, any social media or anything else. So we you know, you had to knock on doors. And also not like the awareness maybe of the business the way you do nowadays, like everyone kind of knows from reporting and all that. Online culture and all this sort of thing. Whereas then it's probably a bit of a mystique where you go, well, I've got to somehow get in front of these people. It was very romantic. Right.

[00:14:25] The back then, you know, to make movies and have giant billboards and people who wrote, you know, network and hospital and John Huston who made all those movies. And you're with them and you're, you know, you're surrounded by this enormous talent. It's very it is it is there's a mystique to it and there's a romantic part of movies that I that I had already been imbued with.

[00:14:49] So I wanted to be a part of that club, you know, and, you know, there's that famous saying is if you want to be a better tennis player, you play with the best. You play against people better than you. So I was always looking to sort of, you know, shoulder up with people that, you know, knew a lot more than me.

[00:15:09] Mm hmm. And actually brings up a question I had, which is you transition, you have you do just a ticket and then there's a few years and then you do 16 blocks with Richard Donner, which there's someone who obviously has a lot of experience when you're working with him. But what sort of like marked the sort of transition towards what will be kind of a trend in your career, which is you write a lot of action films for very, very strong directors. Yeah. And what sort of like led to that path?

[00:15:36] Well, there was a lot of lean years where you would write for studios and I had I was writing. I got hired a lot to write a pitch stories and would write stories for studio executives and never get made. And I couldn't figure out why. And and then one day I did. One day I just realized that they don't know anything, that that the posters on their walls were made by other people.

[00:15:57] And I'm taking their notes as if they know that if I do these notes, these movies would get made and be up on their wall. But that's not wasn't the case. So I decided, you know, who makes these movies are really like strong producers or really, really talented directors. So I thought I'll I'll write for directors. Right.

[00:16:23] And because directors, once you have a conversation with the director about the movie you want to write, you're almost making the same movie if you get along. And then you have a partner and you both see the same thing. It's very powerful sort of connection as opposed to working for producers who have 17 projects going and they just going to see which one the studio likes or which one an actor might do.

[00:16:48] The directors don't do that. They when they attach themselves or they immerse themselves in a movie, they're making it in their heads like I'm making it in my head when I'm writing it. The story with 16. So I basically had had a bunch of scripts that I thought could have been really good submarine by studio stuff. And I was writing a movie right after just a ticket.

[00:17:18] We were cutting the movie at Warner Brothers and we were having lunch outside and Joel Silver came over to talk to Andy Garcia, who was my partner on that. And he wanted to he gave him a script to do. He wanted to do a script. And Andy just threw it to me. So you read it and tell me what you think. It was awful. It was terrible. And that was the end of it.

[00:17:42] And then we screened the movie. And this is after cutting the movie for, I don't know, six months and having Francis Coppola come in and cut with me. And so I got to learn from him, too, and spent several weeks in the editing room with him and getting all the stories and seeing how how you don't write and direct a movie the way I did, which was, you know, he came in and just was a master.

[00:18:08] And so I was thinking, but we had this we had our big premiere at Warner Brothers and Joel Silver was there. And in the middle, near the end of the movie, there was a fight or something. And he I saw him get out of the seat and he came up to where I'm sitting and he tapped me on the shoulder to step outside. And he said, that scene in there is fantastic. Can you you wrote that? I go, yeah. He goes, can you write a bunch of those? I go, yeah. He goes, you gave me the same script to gave Andy goes, just turn this into whatever you want to do.

[00:18:36] And so I did. I was writing a movie for Joel Silver and Richard Donner. They were partners at the time. And I finished the script and I turned it in. And I remember I turned it on like a Friday. And as you know, I'm sure you talk to many writers, you know, you wait forever to get a response when you get there. Hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry. And then a couple of weeks go by and nothing. Right. Well, I turned it on Friday or something. And on a Sunday morning, I got a call.

[00:19:08] This wank. I said, yes, this is Donner. He says, you know how many times do we rewrite the script and it's better? Never. Except yours is. This is great. I want you to come down. I want you to meet me on the set tomorrow. And he was shooting lethal or I think at the time. So I went down and I met him. What the greatest guy ever you'll ever meet. I consider my mentor, really.

[00:19:33] And we became really fast friends. And then him and Joel split up and he wanted to make the movie. And that got tied up in legal stuff and everything else. In the meantime, I had 16 blocks. I was going to write and direct. And I thought, well, what better person to produce it than Dick and Lauren, his wife? So I went up to his house and pitched him the story. And I got about five minutes into the pitch. And he says, stop. And he picks up the phone and he calls his wife.

[00:20:03] He says, honey, you got to get home and hear this. It's one of the best pitches I've ever heard. But except this asshole thinks he's going to direct it. And he hangs up. And I said, oh, he says, I said, you want to direct it? He goes, I died to direct it. And I said, I thought to myself right then and there, it would be a better movie with him directing it. And I've learned so much. And so that was my big step into just writing.

[00:20:26] And it was only because of Dick, because I wrote the script, got very little notes from him. He was making the movie and all this stuff like that. And then I got a call. We were he was casting and he wanted me to come and read with all the people he was casting. And so I got to hear my stuff read out loud by by Academy Award winning actors.

[00:20:52] And realize what you know, and a lot of them, I'm like, this guy is not good. This guy is not he doesn't get it. And I realize it's not it's not him. It's my my dialogue is funky. I got to fix it. And so Bruce signed on. And then we got I wrote a letter to most. And I thought, this is great. I can't wait to see this movie. And then I got a call saying, where do you want to stay? I go in Toronto. And I'm like, what do you mean? He says, Dick wants you to stay where he's staying. Is that OK?

[00:21:21] Oh, I'm going to Toronto. But yeah. So I went to Toronto and I sat on the set every day. I work with the actors every day. I went in the editing room after shooting the thing. I thought this is this is what this is kind of like directing, except not having the headache of it. And from that point on, I've been on the set of every movie. And I don't I think it's because I just I'm happy to collaborate. So but he's the one who got me to realize you're a really good writer.

[00:21:50] And you could you could actually be participating in the making of your films by and large when you, you know, when you meet the right people. I think that speaks to the sort of the collaborative spirit and sort of the generosity of Richard Donnelly there, because it's from what we've spoken to a lot of screenwriters over the years. And it feels like a lot of the time people get frozen out of the process. They do their script and it's like, OK, cheers. And then they walk away in a film, a different film a lot of the time. Yeah.

[00:22:20] So it's nice to know. I've had it happen to me. I mean, I've got movies that I Jack Reacher was like, you know, did one draft and then I got called in to do Magnificent Seven. So they went off and did. And when I saw it, it wasn't resembled very much of what I did. But that's just that's not. And I know it's not bad or good.

[00:22:39] It's just that if you're the voice and you get to stick around, the movie tends to look closer to what you want or better because you're around. Yeah. And I would encourage and a lot of it is personalities. A lot of it is if you're a writer, you are not. You are the second or third voice, but you're a voice.

[00:23:03] And that, you know, I learned on Equalizer that most of that those changes happen to your script in pre-production. When they want to change things, they can't get a location. They decide to cut things for time or whatever, budget or whatever. And no one's making any creative decisions. Just making financial ones. And, you know, they don't realize if you took that out, that doesn't make any sense or anything else.

[00:23:25] So I think it's a much better position as a writer to take that once you hand it over, it's not your movie anymore, but you're there to be a voice. At least you're part of the process of guiding it to what it ends up being as opposed to just being completely cut out. No, absolutely. I think you've then sort of guided us beautifully into a landing of Equalizer there.

[00:23:52] It's a film that's got a little bit of a backstory before you arrive from what I can tell online. So let's hear it from your perspective. Where did you first learn that Equalizer was being made into a film? And where did you get involved? Okay, it's a quick one. One day I got a messengered over thing from Harvey Weinstein. Well, well, you know, 15 years ago, whatever. With the Equalizer with the note saying, I want to make this into a movie.

[00:24:22] And inside was a list of all the episodes and plots and a DVD of the pilot. And I sent it directly back and said, it's a TV show. No, thank you. And that was the end of that. I don't know what he did if he did anything, but a couple of years later, Todd Black and Jason Blumenthal and Steve Tischett's escape artists called and said, I just finished the Expendables.

[00:24:51] So he says, I hear you're free. We've got this great project Equalizer. And I said, that's a TV show. It's a perfect TV show, actually. And he says, oh, well, we have Denzel Washington interested and he will read it without an offer. So that changed everything. Now all of a sudden I thought, well, Denzel Washington will read. If I do a good job, he'll read my script.

[00:25:19] And I said, oh, it also changed the way I thought of the Equalizer. I didn't use anything from the TV show at all. I just thought this guy. And I thought, what is this guy's story?

[00:25:37] And the other thing that happened was, while I was thinking about it, I have a file of articles and notes and things just to go through every so often. And one of them was a poll from the Washington Post. No, the Wall Street Journal. And it was a Gallup poll. And they asked Americans to name the five things that would make their lives better. Right?

[00:26:06] And the number one answer was not health. It was not wealth. And it was not love. It was justice. I thought, that's the movie. Right? It's a pretty powerful statement. It is. And it was around 2008. Right around the financial crisis. So I just thought, that's what people are thirsting for. Some sort of justice.

[00:26:34] And then you just pile on the fact that who are the people wanting justice? It's mostly the people without voices. And it's mostly the unseen people. So I thought, well, if we marry those two things, and there's a guy that could do a lot of things that other people couldn't do, four people who had no voices and couldn't do these things, that would be sort of a pretty strong kind of B-movie. You know? And that's how it sort of took off from there.

[00:27:01] Were there any conversations early on with Michael Sloan, who's the producer on the film, but co-creator of the TV series, about what he wanted from it? Yeah. I did speak to him on the phone. And I believe I wrote an outline or I sent something or an email to the producers and he got it. And he was very lovely. He had no problems about any changes or anything else.

[00:27:27] I'm sure that over the years, having many, many false starts, I guess, on trying to adapt it, you get to the point where it just sort of like... And I don't even think I talked to him until he read the script. And he was very, very excited. And at that point, you know, by the time he read the script, Denzel had read the script and agreed to do it. And the studio agreed to make it. And so, you know, it was sort of off and running.

[00:27:56] Well, let's talk about that process then. You obviously get the message, Denzel's looking to read it, you've got to write it. And there had been two years worth of development done at that point. Are you taking over any of the concepts from that? Or is this basically you from scratch? You from scratch. Yeah. And by the way, the process, as all writers know, is that you go start going down roads and, you know, the studio wanted a big movie. They wanted a very big, you know, like James Bondy kind of, you know, global movie.

[00:28:26] Which, again, starting off, I didn't feel. So I had a whole plot about, you know, some terrorist and thing and stuff. And I remember writing it. And this is the story I tell everybody because it's true. I got to page 85 in the script. I couldn't get to 86. I just, days and days and weeks and went by. I could not get to page 87. And at that time, Safe House had come out and I went and saw it. I loved it.

[00:28:54] And I thought, I'm just about to write a version of that in the second and third act in here. And I just, I don't know. I just, I just thought, I love this character so much. And we're going into a plot. And I don't know. I sat with, I called the producers and I said, guys, I got to throw out 35 pages. I got to go back to page 50 where the movie is exactly that, right? Up to there, 50. And I said, I have to just go down a different road.

[00:29:23] Oh, you can't, you can't do that. Those scenes are great. The most exciting action and everything. I said, yeah, it's just, they just wouldn't let go. And I just said, and I don't know why I said it, but I said, I think Denzel is going to read the script. He's going to get to page 50. He's going to read page 51. He's going to throw it in the no pile. And that got him very quiet. And I, I just said it because that's what I thought, but I didn't know him or anything. And they said, okay, so you, you do what you want to do.

[00:29:51] But if we don't like it, you have to put it all back together to finish it. That's fair. I said, okay. So I did it. And it is the movie word for word. What you see is the movie. Now, here's the funny part was that I've never been through this process where you write a script on spec and it goes to an actor and everything hinges on that. Right. So I don't, I've never done it. So I'm not nervous or I don't, I've never been through it. So apparently it was, I think it was the 4th of July weekend.

[00:30:21] And, um, they messengers the script over to Denzel and, um, my agent got his agent, his start in the business. So they talk, you know, on, so on Friday, he gets the script on Saturday. Then, uh, Denzel's agent calls my agent and says, Denzel just called me. He's on page 50. He wants to know if the next 50 are just as good. Hmm. And my agent said, they're better.

[00:30:50] And he hangs up and literally two hours later, he called the producers say, hi, this is Robert McCall. And that was it. And I'll never forget that. Cause that was my instinct was, I think if he wrote, wrote, read page 52 and he was chasing a terrorist or something, he, he wouldn't have done it. But the idea that you just stuck with this guy and the birth of this character and his purpose basically was the thematic of the movie finding his purpose.

[00:31:19] And I was really curious if, you know, you're, you are adapting like a TV show that was popular, but it's not one that is necessarily fully beloved the way that, you know, I don't know if you were to remake a mash or something like that. Yeah. For example, like, uh, that's something where people would have very strong opinions. Was there like a freedom to that where you could keep the concept because the concept, you know, just the pitch of the concept works and be able to run with it versus something that like nowadays people are more obsessed with, you know.

[00:31:48] Does it kind of pay off for the fans? And I'm guessing that was something you didn't really have to concern yourself with. No, I, I remember seeing the, the, the TV show occasionally in the eighties. So, um, but no, it didn't occur to me that I had to keep anything that it felt like the title was what they bought, right? That's the IP they bought and that Denzel Washington was going to be the guy. So you would have to build a story that maybe the greatest actor of our generation would want to be in. Right.

[00:32:19] That's my job is to make that. So whatever that was, whatever needed to be. Um, so the OCD and the, uh, the, the wife and reading the books and the whole thing was just sort of like to enhance this character who had these skills and had no place to put them. And he had a past. And the other choice you make in those movies is never to tell you what that past was, what happened to his wife. What did he really work for? It didn't really matter.

[00:32:48] It mattered that we kind of understood it. And your imagination was probably better than what I would have told you. So it was sort of mythic in a way. Um, and, um, and then you could, the hardest part was weaving in the personal equalizing moments. Right. It was my choice that he would have, he, they, you would have to cross paths with him. Right. You would have to, he would have to see you.

[00:33:14] And that's the one thing that, um, I think I'm most proud of is that the part of the part of the character that's not really sort of on the page or anything is that he's a person who sees you. Right. So we walk by people all the time and they may look sad or struggling or whatever, but I mean, very rarely stop and whatever, but somehow he sees the security guard guy and the girl in the diner and you know, those things.

[00:33:41] And as the movies go on, that's sort of the DNA of that. So I didn't feel the pressure or anything to use anything. The only thing they did use from the TV show, which they jettisoned from the other movies, as you'll see was the very end of the movie where he placed an ad online, uh, which I fought against. But, um, but that was sort of what they, that was sort of, you know, the compromise, um, but never came up again in any of the other movies.

[00:34:11] So I was, when I was doing my research for this, I was curious to see, like, in terms of people involved in the creative process, but it seems like your vision. More or less is what we see, uh, on the screen. What I'm curious to know is obviously Denzel reads the script, loves it, signs on to do the film. Does he have any notes about what he wants to see from the character or is he like, nope, you've got it. Let's roll. Okay. So two things. One is his, his marching orders to the studio. And again, I heard this was not sure.

[00:34:41] Uh, was, uh, I'm in, it's not a development deal. I'm shooting that script. Okay. Right. That's number one. Um, by the way, they didn't listen to any of that, but, um, eventually they came around to it. Um, the second thing was, is that when, when the script was out to directors and, and, and, and Denzel hand-ficked Antoine, um, because he had worked with him, uh, briefly on another project. Um, it was your, this is the script for shooting.

[00:35:11] So nothing really got changed. So nothing really got changed at all. Not a word, not a scene. There was not a scene on the floor. Um, nothing. Um, but I was also told that Denzel is a first draft actor. What he reads and responds to is what he wants to do. So all the rewriting and all the polishing and stuff. So he's very, he carries the first draft with him to, uh, he, we would work.

[00:35:38] And then I think we worked maybe four or five weeks in Boston together. And, um, he would always pull out the first draft and compare it to whatever's there. And for example, I remember there was, you guys just saw it, right? Yeah. But you know that, that scene is the softball game. Well, right. Where Ralphie becomes a security guard. Well, they cut that scene. They're like, we don't want to go to a baseball park. We don't want to buy uniforms. We're just going to have them show up at the store at the home. Right.

[00:36:07] And so I did it. I mean, I'm not going to argue. And, um, we sat down or read and every day we'd go through the script from page one to page 95. And he gets there and goes, where's the softball game? I said, well, they cut it. And he goes, they didn't want to cut the money budget or whatever. He gets up, he leaves, he goes into the line, produces all the time. He comes back, he's back in. Okay. We're next. And so that, that that's the, again, so it was very fortunate to go from a Richard Donner who

[00:36:38] collaborates with you on the set. What do you think? You know, blah, blah, blah to Denzel who reads the script with you and asks you this and this and they, and protects the movie. Um, cause that's what he's responded to. And so that was a great, and again, an Antoine was a tremendous collaborator. I mean, he, he's, he particularly not when he's shooting, he shoots the movie in his head and it's fantastic and it's greater than you probably, I probably imagine, but while working

[00:37:04] on it, he's bringing in Navy seals to show how you do these things and we should add this and all that stuff like that. So again, I'm a voice there. And if there was any, like the softball scene or anything else that, that is falling through the cracks, you're at least a voice there. It's actually interesting. You bring up the softball scene because it kind of ties into something I was noticing watching the movie, which is a lot of movies, action films could be like 90 minutes. It's propulsive and we barrel through.

[00:37:33] And that's kind of the point of the movie. And the equalizer feels very different than that in the willingness to say, okay, we've set up, you know, the story with the young woman who's in trouble. Oh, and by the way, now we're going to go focus on what's going on with the security guard story. And that does feel like something that would be almost a threat of being like, no, no, refine it, refine it. We want this to be a 95 minute in and out action movie. Yeah. And that's something that makes this movie, I think, stand out from a lot of the other movies

[00:37:59] that are coming out around that time period is that it does really kind of work with the community building aspect of the story. I don't think he can do that character without that, right? Because those, you know, it's interesting that that movie goes backwards in terms of till the last scene in the home art, it starts with the big scene, right? For first of all, kudos to Sony and everybody else that for 30 minutes, nothing happens in that movie, right?

[00:38:27] It's all just character and it's fascinating and he's interesting. And, you know, it's, it's entertaining enough and you're curious enough and everything else until the scene in the Russian room. But then you notice that the actual action scenes get smaller and smaller, right? So the next scene is with the cops and he beats them up physically and punches them and blah, blah, blah. And then you get to the Jenny ring scene and all he does is pick up a sledgehammer and put it back. You never see what happens.

[00:38:54] So, you know, it was a curious thing is that as a writer, as a filmmaker, you don't want to be repetitive. It's like, you know, how many times can you shoot somebody? And how many times can you beat up somebody? How many times? That's not the essence of those scenes. It's the emotionality of the scenes. What are they doing to that poor little girl? What are they doing? I, I, you have, if you don't have any of that, it's just white noise beating people up.

[00:39:18] But a guy who comes in and tries to extract her and negotiate and they make fun of him and then it just builds and becomes a very emotional thing. And then he's sorry that he did it. I mean, he sits on that floor and he says, I'm sorry. I mean, it's, it's a guy that's, as he said, it's a Teddy later. He says, you know, I promised someone I'd never go back to being that guy, but for you, I'll make an exception. That's, it's his hint of this guy's sort of dark past.

[00:39:46] So I don't think he can do those, that particular kind of movie without the humanity in there. I always thought if you did this right, you would want him to live on your block. Right. That's, that's the idea. He lives upstairs from you in your apartment building or down the street because he's the guy who will see you, you know, it goes to like the movie often goes to very dark places as do the other films in the series.

[00:40:12] Is it hard to find the balance between something that makes people uncomfortable to see versus a movie? You know, they're going to walk out. This is a big release. This is a, these are hit movies. You want people to walk out and say, you got to check out the equalizer film. It's a ton of fun. Is it hard to find that balance? Uh, yes, it's not, it's not hard. It's an innate thing. It's a feeling, I guess. I think it's also helpful to have someone as talented and as incredibly, um, willing to go

[00:40:41] dark as Antoine. So we would find this medium. I tend to be a little bit more, um, sentimental about things. And he tends to be very much more hardcore real life stuff. And somewhere we meet in there. Um, they, they play off one another. So everybody was worried about the violence in the first one to turn off. I mean, that's some pretty wicked violence in that movie. Um, but oddly enough, the biggest quadrant that, that gave it this highest score were women.

[00:41:11] So there was this, this dichotomy of a knight in shining armor slaying dragons and, um, and saving the girl. And they forgive the violence part of it. They close their eyes, right? They cover their eyes for that stuff. But the man himself, they, they, they loved.

[00:41:31] So I think that was really sort of our epiphany when we screened it just the one time for an audience that we were surprised about how women took to that character. Yeah. You, you spoke a bit about the action and sort of your approach of almost minimalizing the actual action itself to leave it more impressionistic in a way to the audience to sort of think about what he could have done, especially with like the sledgehammer for instance.

[00:41:57] And then you do get to that sort of big, you know, I would the home Depot shootout as it were the big, the big set piece at the end, which is, you know, there's a crescendo. That's, that's, that's all part of it for you though, the process of, uh, of writing an action sequence, cause I've seen it from the Bond movies and people we've interviewed over the years. Some people just write, this is a good chase scene. Yeah. And then the director has to go and make one. Are you doing a beat by beat of what you see the action sequence to be, or what is your action sequence look like on a script? Well, it reads a little more poetic.

[00:42:27] Um, I think that the one thing I'm, I read a lot of scripts and get offered a lot of scripts and, um, uh, action is the hardest thing to read because you, you know, when it, you, uh, and I, I'm not, uh, I remember we had a meeting with the, Tom Rothman, the chairman of Sony, and he was going through the script and someone said, this is the greatest action scene, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, I didn't read it. It's just P and K. And I go, what's P and K punching and kicking. So, you know, they, they, they see this stuff all the time.

[00:42:57] So one of the tricks for me is to write it internally emotionally. So for example, if you read the pages of the Russian room, it reads like your inside is off. And it says parts of the room fall apart and you only see what he's needed and everything else. Now, you know, it, it, it doesn't read like, and then when he does it, it's written like, you know, he slices the snake in this geyser of this and it's moves. It's almost like, um, ballet.

[00:43:27] There's very little wording and it's more rhythmic and things like that. Otherwise, um, you write things like what happens, what happens is so quick and so deadly. Um, uh, they're on the, they're, they're like broken birds on the floor in seconds. Now I know there, I've seen, I know how that works. I get the feeling of what that is. It's close quarter and compact versus big and weapons and guns.

[00:43:53] Um, but somebody is going to, somebody is going to figure out a way to do that. Um, uh, better than I could describe it. Even if I saw it, you know, it just doesn't read. It doesn't translate to write it. It translates to feel it, uh, feel the anger, feel the, you know, stuff like that. Um, change it. I use words like, you know, he changes the geometry between him and him. Right. Right.

[00:44:21] That, that tells me I can, I can feel that when I read it. I don't, you know what I mean? And then all of a sudden he whips the ashtray hits a, it's, it's like very compact and very unworthy, I guess. Um, I like to know what the action is. I like to know the, the, the confines of the action, but in terms of the details of the action, there are the stunt guys and Denzel and Antoine are all going to get in there

[00:44:47] and find, find fantastic ways to do within those confines. And I suppose, I had a couple of questions about, um, other acts in the film, but we haven't spoken much about Antoine Fuqua and his actual, what he's doing as a director here. He's coming in with his interpretation of everything and him and Denzel are working together on the action sequences, like you're saying, but for you, and it's a, it's a relationship you continue to have past this film. What's that collaboration like with Antoine? And what's he bringing to sort of the equalizer equation, if you will?

[00:45:16] Oh, well, he, well, he brings, you know, uh, such a visual style to it. Number one. And then he also digs deeper than I do. And I liken it kind of like what John Huston says about, you know, letting actors do things. Well, when you're writing an entire script and you're writing, say, for example, in the third version, it starts on a farm in Sicily and a thing, and I describe it and whenever

[00:45:42] else he goes and figures out what the farm looks like, what the inside of the house looks like, how many steps, the whole thing. He wants to do six things instead of two. And he's got this whole thing in his head where that would exhaust me if I had to write all that and the rest of the script. So again, I find the confines of it and Antoine gets inside the confines of it and paints like Picasso.

[00:46:09] So, you know, I'm not, I hate to, you know, out myself, but it was a fork in the first one, not a, not a corkscrew, but Antoine's corkscrew on set and it became that. Right. So those are the kinds of things that just elevate these things to, you know, I just giggle, you know, like, wow. Yeah. Well, I was actually going to ask, speaking of giggling, I remember going to see this movie

[00:46:38] opening weekend and the Home Mart massacre at the end, the audience was having the best time with it. Absolutely loved it. And I was curious, that is a real just showstopper finale to the movie. You have Denzel's character working for Home Mart. At what point in the process was it like, wait a second, we have to have the Home Mart massacre. Did you start with that action idea and move backwards or you're shaking your head? That came at the end when Todd Black said, we need a bigger scene at the end. Oh.

[00:47:08] I had an ending and he, and I said, and it didn't take long. It was like, we need a big action. They really, it's so good up to here and to kill the guy over here and whatever. I'm like, okay, I think I drown him. And they had a big fight and I put him in a car and drown him in a lake. I forget. And he goes, and so I said, well, we just might as well just go to Home Mart and just have a whole shootout at the OK Corral. And he goes, that's it. And so I wrote it.

[00:47:34] And then when we went to Boston, Antoine and I and the AD went to Home Depot and we walked around and started picking out weapons. So that's how it sort of built. We just started, you know, it was there. Like I think the, like Antoine did the sprinklers, right? He had the sprinklers. Yep. I know I did the thing with the microwave and the canister.

[00:48:03] And I did the hanging with the barbed wire and the thing with the doorknob. But I think Antoine had the treat thing go through the thing. I had the drill go to the back of that. We all just kind of were kind of ripping on how we could do it again, cinematically without it being repetitive. And because once you get into those sequences, you sort of know, even though you're if you're into the movie, you don't think this. But as a writer, you do like there's seven guys and they're all going to die. Yeah. Right.

[00:48:33] I know. And he ain't going to die. Right. So how do you get through this without you going, OK, once how many guys left? You know, that's the that's the big metric for a good action and a good sequence, period. When you're not going, well, there's four more guys left. So, you know, nothing's going to happen to our guy. That was something I was actually going to ask you in some ways tied more so to the third film.

[00:49:00] But one thing I've seen written about the Equalizer movies many times is it has a lot of elements of like slasher films where Denzel's character is he's not invincible, but he feels like someone who through the movies like you don't question whether he's going to survive. And a lot of the scenes where he is taking people down, like in The Home Mart or in I think the third one had a few sequences in particular that stood out. There is that kind of feeling of like a, you know, Jason or a Michael Myers where it's like this unstoppable force.

[00:49:29] Was that something that was inspiring you at all? Or is that just more people reading into it? Maybe reading into it. Well, first of all, they're not wrong in that he uses a knife in the third and the second one a lot in there. I just wanted to feel like a man. First of all, I never liked to see. That's one thing John Houston taught me is power never moves is what he told me one day. So he was doing a sequence with in the thing where the in the script, Daddy Warbucks had

[00:49:56] a run around his house, his mansion telling everybody what to do because Andy was kidnapped. And he designed the scene where Daddy Warbucks stood in one place and shouted and out of each corner of the frame, people appeared and did it one shot instead of five pages. And he turned to me and he said, power never moves. And so the more powerful and more skilled somebody is, the less you see them doing things. And I always felt like Robert McCall plays chess five moves ahead of most people.

[00:50:26] Right. So, you know, whatever he's doing, he's thinking about something else. And it's got to be smart. And it's I don't want to see him running from here to here. He's just there. So maybe there's a lot of that where those those characters are the boogeyman there. But for me, it's simply I don't want to see the shoe leather part of this. I want to see how sharp and concise and skilled this man is without, you know, running 100 yards or anything like that. So there's a lot there is. It's not wrong.

[00:50:55] It's not. But it's not what inspired me. Okay. Yeah. Were there any other influences for the film that maybe wouldn't jump out to people as much? I don't know. They're all Westerns, you know, that's how they feel to me. They're a classic. He's the he's the reluctant gunfighter. You know, he's hung up his thing and he's trying to not be a guy who's lived in violence and things and

[00:51:22] but has no purpose and much like Shane. Eventually, you put that gun back on and you do for those people what they can't do for them. And so there's a lot of that, a lot of Shane in there and a lot of John Ford for me. So I just felt like that's always been sort of the kind of guy character, male character that that I've been attracted to quiet doesn't talk a lot.

[00:51:51] I have to pass doesn't talk about it. We don't know what it is, but we can read it on his face. I my favorite moment of making the first movie was seeing the. The scene in the diner when the when Chloe Moritz tells him that, oh, you're a widower. I can see it in your eyes. Well, you can't really see that while you're shooting it on the set, even though I'm sitting right there and I'm like, no.

[00:52:17] But when I saw what that what Denzel could do with not with without with just feeling. It was just it just lifted a weight off me to be able to write more of things like that and not worry that that whatever that internal thing is, it will be there. So I like characters that we care about and wonder about and empathize with, but don't know everything about their mysteries.

[00:52:47] We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Agents, we don't expect you to talk. We expect you to buy a subscription to our Patreon. Yee, that's right. Over on the SpyHards Patreon, we're covering all your favorite spy TV shows as well as popular films from the most iconic secret agent actors of all time. Cam, why don't you share some intel on our latest assignment?

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[00:53:47] The only question I had left, because I was gonna ask about sort of your favorite moment there, but you jumped in with it, fortunately, was about Chloe Moretz actually, because I read online the character was originally, you know, supposed to be a little bit older, about mid-twenties. And then she wowed in the sort of audition process, and it was sort of written down to 17, I think at the time she was when she shot the film. Just a little bit about her involvement and obviously just repositioning the character. Was that a difficult thing to do?

[00:54:12] No. I mean, you know, a lot of this is based on, you know, a lot of research with police detectives in New York City and things like that about human trafficking and where they come from and everything else. And I think the real worry was, was she too young? And would it be a little creepy? And would it be a little bit too much for the audience to take?

[00:54:38] But she had, the minute you would meet her, she had such a maturity about her and a great sense of herself that I didn't worry. She was older than her years. And that's really what a person playing a 17 year old traffic person would look and act like.

[00:55:00] So I think we're all thrilled. I think there was a hesitation in the mid, in the beginning of it. Is it too young? Is it too, will it, will it, will it become too trapped? It's taxi driver ish, you know? And, but she, she allied all those fears right away. She was just tough nut and, and charming and funny and not intimidated either by Denzel. And that can happen.

[00:55:27] Oh, I was gonna say she goes up against him, especially in that diner scene. And it's, it's like two pros firing back and forth in that scene. It's great. And, and it could have gone the other way where, you know, they're a little more intimidated and it doesn't have that, but she's got a lot of extra years in that, in those eyes of hers. So. And I was going to actually ask another supporting character, Teddy, you know, when it comes to Westerns action films, often you need a great villain. To really pull it off.

[00:55:57] And I thought Teddy really works because he's someone who comes across as incredibly intelligent. And so you get that cat and mouse element. That's very strong here. Just the choices you made in creating the character of Teddy. Well, just that, right. That, that he had to be as smart as McCall. He's the other side of the coin. Right. And who was he? And I think there was a line in there. It was a sociopath in a suit or something, which I wanted to take out, but they wanted to leave in.

[00:56:26] And it's interesting because I got to work with him a lot and we got to work on the character while we were there. And again, all the scenes stayed. They were all the same scenes and everything else. It was just shadings of it. And Antoine, this is the perfect example of how great Antoine is because a lot of directors, it's all Denzel and Chloe and, you know, the people. And then there's this guy. And then I, I've got a couple of movies there where they do that, you know, where they just put a N.D. bad guy, you know, and it takes everything down.

[00:56:55] And this was deep dive into this guy and his psychological makeup. And he was so quiet and he was so, he decided to go very simple, which made him more chilling. Right.

[00:57:12] So when he, when he strangled her or when he, you know, beat up the God, the two sides of him, which I like the most, right, beating up the, the mafia dude in the, in the, at the gravel pit, and then strangling a, you know, a 20 year old girl, you know, in a way in which, you know, he basically climaxes, you know, it's like, it just was, he was just so pitch perfect for that.

[00:57:40] I mean, and he brought, he brought himself to that. He was just that he just owned it. And I think rather than play it, he owned it. He just was the guy. So, I mean, again, another, but another thing that Antoine spent time and time on that whole scene where he was fully tattooed and everything, that was all Antoine deciding he would be, this is what they really look like. This is what they do. They spent hours and hours making that tattoo up to the chagrin of the production, you know, but.

[00:58:08] But it, it all adds up to, you know, a notable adversary. I kind of want to move us on to two and three, but maybe in a way that's more sort of broadly looking at both. Because I think the, the, the, the main question that springs to my mind about the fact that there are sequels is, is going back to what we said at the beginning, what you told us that, you know, you got that call and you said, oh, it's a TV show. No, no, I'm okay. And then this film drops. It's very successful. Four years later, there's Equalizer 2.

[00:58:38] Did you foresee there being a possibility of there being sequels when you were shooting the first one? And sort of what made you want to come back? Well, it's two questions. So one is, no, I didn't foresee it. I think this, I think the producers did. I think the studio wished, everybody wishes for that, right? Denzel shut that down right away. Never done a sequel. Never will do a sequel. And the only piece that decides if there's a sequel are the audience. That's, that's basically what he said. And we're just going to make one.

[00:59:10] On the night of the first and only test screening, which scored the highest test screening of any R-rated movie in Sony history, they ordered a second one. Now, I'd already known, like, there were three parts of this man in his life, whether we see them or not. One was, in the first movie, we would find his purpose, right? Which would become Necoizer.

[00:59:35] Now, there's another interesting story about that, is that scene at the very end of the movie was in the middle of the script. After he killed the Russians, he runs into Chloe. And that's when he realizes I can be the equalizer. And he helps Ralphie and he helps everything else. But when they shot that scene, I saw it cut. And we were, I was in Antoine's trailer and I watched it. I said, oh, that's the end of the movie. Oh, no, no, no, no. That's, it played like an end. It felt like an end. It was better at the end.

[01:00:04] Perfect example of filmmaking, where it was perfectly fine in the script. Everybody loved it where it was. And I saw it and I thought, oh, no, that's there. I knew that there would be something about him having to make peace with his, his past. That whatever that was. And I like their relation with Mrs. Leo that came out of the first one. So that would be part and parcel of it.

[01:00:34] And then, and then in the third one, I, which I think is the end of it, even though they keep saying there'd be another one. I needed him to find a place, his home. Their purpose, peace and place were the sort of the thematics in my head. And that it wasn't soon after the second one where he got home and he went home. And I thought, he doesn't really have a home. It's just empty. And he has no really community around him.

[01:01:02] He helps all these people anonymously and everything else. I think if I wanted to leave this guy, I would leave him with a family, would leave him with a community. And so that was sort of, but it started simply with, wow, this movie is great. Let's get another one. And Denzel said to me, he said, well, I have to, you have to tell me the story and I have to read the script. And he loved the movie and he read the second script and he wanted to do it. He was very taken with the relationship with the young kid in the movie.

[01:01:32] He wanted to do that story. And then after that one, I went up to his house and I said, we're going to go to Italy. And he goes, I love Italy. And I said, you know, this is a story. And he's like, I love him in. So it's just one of those fortunate things that nobody, nobody planned it, including myself.

[01:01:57] But in the back of my mind, I always thought if I imagined more, these would be the thematics I'd hit. So it just, we're successful enough to then to want to do another one. And the third one, I remember was marketed as the kind of final chapter and you were writing it from the point of view of a final chapter as well? Yes. Yeah. So like I've seen the stories as well about, you know, an equalizer four and five.

[01:02:24] Um, I'm not going to, you've said, you know, you hear they're going to make more. Is it something that like you would be interested in pursuing the character? Or do you feel like you, by tackling those three facets of the character in one, two, and three, it was kind of like you told that story. Well, originally I said, I told the story and I don't want to touch it. And I was, it worked. And everyone is, the third was the most popular, I guess, of them, which is very rare. And I'm like, that's because I think everyone's happy for this guy.

[01:02:52] And, um, I don't really, he's retired. He's done. He's found his place and everything. I don't know what you would do. It would seem. And I kept saying, listen, you guys could tell me the plot of the fourth Bourne movie. I'd consider it. And no one even remembered there was a fourth. That was my point, right? We'd struggle with that, to be fair. And that's our specialty. I'm saying so, and by the way, I originally was working on that for a while, uh, trying to figure it out.

[01:03:21] And I, I couldn't figure it out. And, um, anyway, so, but I did, um, honestly, maybe it's like scoop or something, but, um, I did, I did. I said, if you had to do one, I know what it is. I know what it is. Um, and, uh, everyone was skeptical of, you know, Antoine, I talked to Antoine and I said, I'm just going to tell you the poster.

[01:03:48] It's EQ for unfinished business. What's the unfinished business? I said, that's my point. That's what you have to come see. I said, it will have to do with, you know, it'll bring everything together and all the people together and everything else. But, um, who knows, you know, I mean, everybody wants another successful thing.

[01:04:14] Um, I, I wouldn't do it if it felt like a money grab, you know, if they wanted to do that story, which is, you know, again, they're all different. That's the one thing about the equalizers is they're not the same movies. They all have different things. The, the second screening we did on the second one, the, the most favorite part was that it wasn't the same as the first one. It was all about his relationship and his past and his thing. We didn't know this. And we liked hearing that and the old guy and the young kid.

[01:04:44] And the same with Italy. It was like, you know, it was a whole nother chapter and it had nothing you couldn't, you know, other than he is who he is. It's, it's an evolving story. So I don't know. We'll see, you know. Well, it's sort of like in a way, almost like James Bond franchise, you can spot the elements, but each movie is going to feel different, have different flavors, different influences, all that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:08] And the problem with the thing is James Bond is, is always a spy and he's always, you know, works for, for these people and he has adventures to do. Um, in my, in the equalizer, he didn't want to do it anymore. I mean, he, that, that bullet in the opening scene was a got shot saying, you're going, if you keep doing this, you'll be dead.

[01:05:31] And somehow he ends up in this magical little village and these people and he finds his home and he puts his watch away and he joins a community. I don't, you know, to me, that's, that you need to earn, whatever the next movie, if there is one, it's, it starts there. It doesn't, it doesn't start, you know, in Austria somewhere or he's coming down the Alps, you know, it's a, it's a continuation, I think.

[01:05:58] So whether there is a fourth or fifth or whatever, or we finished here on the three and make it a trilogy, clearly that these equalizer films had an impact. And as you say, they've gotten more successful as they've gone along. So it is the most successful of the bunch. What is it you think is about the character that is speaking to people and continues to do so? Well, I, I, I've always thought that it's somebody who speaks for the voices and acts for those who can't.

[01:06:28] There are not, there are all specific people, right? They're not, they're not you and me who can call our lawyers or, you know, the police and, you know, make complaints and go to court. And they don't have these options. They only have him. And there's something romantic and, and wishful about having someone that actually sees your predicament and helps you.

[01:06:51] And I remember Jason Blumenthal in the beginning said something that was somewhat true. He, one of the, I don't remember what the tagline, oh, it was, what do you see when you look at me? It was a tagline on the poster, but he wanted, sometimes superheroes are real. And I thought that's kind of it. He's not really a superhero. He's kind of our guy. He's just a regular guy, a blue collar guy. Blends in, you could pass him on the street.

[01:07:20] But I think the idea that he stands for, he can't stand injustice and he sees it is, I think, what appeals to people. They want somebody like that on their block, in their community, you know, in their government. You know, they want that. And he, I think he represents that. And I think that that's the, both entertaining of it and it's an emotional thing about, yeah, yeah, I hope he gets them.

[01:07:49] Mm-hmm. And I was curious, actually, in terms of, you know, adapting a story and finding your own voice for it and pushing it forward into interesting avenues. You did the mechanic remake and you didn't come back for the second one, Mechanic Resurrection. I was curious, like, if there was ever a point where you saw something there that you could push forward. We did. We did.

[01:08:12] It was one of my favorite scripts because it's a really nihilistic world and it's very hard to make something entertaining with those kind of characters. But I was kind of very kind of pleased to pull off that, you know, and Simon West was fantastic and it was a great process. And I started from page one. I just went to, and I don't know, maybe 30 writers over the years that tried to do it. And I read a couple of them. He was an ex-army guy.

[01:08:41] He was this guy, that guy. I just went back to what I always remembered from the first one, which was, you know, the Charles Bronson movie. But just make a new one, you know, just make an updated one. I did. I had a script for that. And the story is, because I was there, they loved it more than the first script.

[01:09:09] And we had a meeting with Erwin Winkler and Jason Statham. And Jason said, I didn't want to play mechanic. I want to get a girl. I don't want to be a mechanic anymore. I said, well, it's called the mechanic, you know. So he just died right there. Like, he just didn't want to play him anymore. And then a year later, he did the other one where he gets the girl, I guess, you know. Yeah. So there's some versions that they acquiesced to some of that stuff.

[01:09:38] But I've stolen a lot of stuff from that mechanic script. I tell you that. There's some good stuff in there. So it's always good, you know, when you have one in your drawer. Well, it's such a, the sequel is such a tonal shift from both the original mechanic Bronson film and your version as well. And there is a very, there's a lot of similarities between the Bronson one and your version. You're definitely trying to keep to the core of the mechanic.

[01:10:06] And that's, I think that's what makes it work a lot more. There is, there is a certain wackiness, very, very, very, like a Roger Moore Bond film to the Resurrections film. But like, I think it's, it's, it's not a mechanic film. No, no. And that's what I think that's Jason just didn't want to do it again. And, but, you know, in this business, you know, IPs got these people to the producers and things and they have it and it's pre-marketed and the whole thing. So I'm sure they combined something and something and had it called Mechanic Resurrection.

[01:10:36] But it wasn't really that same character, I don't think. It worked out for Statham. He fights off sharks in that film and now he's doing the Meg film. So, you know. Exactly. It led right there. So there you go. Wow. We'll bring it home in a minute with a couple of quick questions to wrap us up. But I did just want to talk about the protégé real quick because that came out a couple of years ago now. And, you know, you got to work with Martin Campbell who has a lot of spy pedigree.

[01:11:03] A guy we've spoken about a lot on this show, Golden Eye, because he's in a royale. With that story, where did you get involved and then where did Martin Campbell get involved and sort of what was it like working with him on the film? Well, working with him was great. He's such a detailed oriented guy with no ego. He basically loved the script. He sat here in my office on several occasions for hours just going through it and making sure he understood everything. And what song we might play for that when he shoots him.

[01:11:32] All the stuff like that. And just was a wonderful experience. It was it started with somebody called me. Arthur Sykisian called me and said producer and said, I have a big Chinese billionaire wants to make a movie. For the most famous actress in China named Gong Li, who was in Memoirs of Geisha. Everybody knows who she is. She's a Meryl Streep. And she wants to do an action movie.

[01:12:02] She wants to do a thing. So I started writing the the protege. I don't know what it was called then for her. And then it got kind of bogged down in language issues. And and she wanted I don't know. I just just kind of just fizzled, you know, but I always liked it. I always thought it was really smart, sort of interesting.

[01:12:25] Pulpy movie, you know, and so when that kind of fell apart, I had Arthur get the script and buy it from the Chinese guy and gave it to Millennium, who did 16 blocks and expendables and mechanic. And they just greenlit it right away. And and off it went. And again, I didn't go to that set because it was far away.

[01:12:53] But Martin came here and I went to his house and we worked on the script till he basically shot the script. So, you know, it turned out to be kind of how I envisioned or better, even better. It looked like a much bigger movie than a 20 million dollar movie. I have to say that he did a massively great job. I mean, I watched that opening. I'm like, I'm in Vietnam and I'm in. And what how'd you do all this stuff? And, you know, it's easy to write it. But you got it. So but he was great. Great.

[01:13:24] It was actually the you had one of my questions just there was a budget and versus what you got in the end. There's clearly that Martin Campbell secret sauce there. Yes. Bringing that round. But it's a great film. And also the thing I think it has going for is it's got a great cast. Like Michael Keaton's given a performance. I've never seen him give really in any other film. He's going somewhere with that. It's very interesting. And then Maggie Q is great as well. She's got some spy pedigree with Mission Impossible. He was fantastic. Sam was great.

[01:13:53] But I'll tell you, here's the perfect Michael Keaton story. So I get a call from Michael Keaton. I want to get together. I want to go to the script and everything else. And we had lunch. And we were talking about it. And he was like, give me an in to this guy or something. And I said, well, let me let me think about it. And I went home and I texted him.

[01:14:19] And I said, you know, I went back to my old drafts and I looked at it and I thought, this guy's in a whole different movie. He's not in your movie. He's not in their movie. He's in his own movie. And I texted him. I said, this guy is operating on another level and he's in another movie. So don't pay attention to any of this. That's why he's talking to these guys about their suits and everything else and moving around and viewing her as fascinating and interesting as opposed to an opponent.

[01:14:46] And I wrote, so you're just being in your own movie. And he wrote back, he goes, unbelievably perfect. See you at the premiere. That was the last I heard of him. But that's, yeah, that was my, again, pitch perfect. For that character. Because that's how I felt. I read it. And I said, this guy is different than everybody else. That is exactly what he's playing too. He's talking a different language to the people on the screen. Basically. Yes, he is. And I loved it. I thought it was great.

[01:15:17] I've got a couple of questions. First and foremostly is we spoke about these action sequences and things that you've created over the years with these films. Is there a particular action sequence that you've sort of manifested in one of your films that you're particularly proud of? Yes. I think the one I'm viscerally most proud of is, it's close.

[01:15:42] But the scene in 16 blocks when the guy's going to shoot most death through the window of the car in the beginning of the movie. And it's Bruce Willis shooting the guy that's shooting and he hits the thing and the blood splatters. And it's in kind of, it's undercranked. And so bullets are whizzed by Bruce because he's half drunk and everything else. And he has got to get to the car and the things are going. And the bullets are going. And things are falling. And people are moving. And cars and things.

[01:16:07] I thought that was just immersively perfect when I saw it. It was like I imagined it, but better. Because Bruce was so good at it. And the idea that this guy was out of his league and somehow was going, that was that one. I don't know. I guess the, I always still love the Russian room in the first equalizer.

[01:16:34] Because I wrote it as an internal thing and I thought no one can shoot this. It's just fun for me. It's like this, we're in the guy's head. We're seeing things through his brain. And then it's almost a ballet of movements that are disconnected and skillful, but whatever. It was, never imagined it could be realized.

[01:17:01] And then Antoine shot it and he got in his eye and he did the whole thing. And I thought, wow. That was, so I'm kind of proud of that because it feels like it read, but I never believe it would ever look like that. It's interesting to hear that sort of way. Because in the equalizer film, for those listening who haven't necessarily watched the film, it has these moments where you're sort of seeing it through his vision, sort of a tunnel vision of what he's doing. Yes.

[01:17:27] So I'm guessing that's Antoine Fuqua sort of reading your words and then turning that into literally what's happening on the screen. That is seeing the character. Yes. I don't even know if he turned it into, he elevated it out of there as well. I mean, it was written as that. But again, I can't imagine, I didn't imagine cinematically you could do it, but he did. He pushed into his eyeball and then all of a sudden you're seeing the room through his eyes and you're seeing things and pieces, the thing he will use in this moment.

[01:17:56] And, you know, all connected to that line, 16 seconds. Right. Right. Which is what he thinks it's going to take. And it really took, it took 19 seconds. So he's a little slow or whatever. But the idea of that, all that, all that sort of equalized. So we called it McCall vision. Right. And so he could see, and it came out of a thing I read about Michael Jordan, where at the end of a game, I asked him why he was always good at the end of the games.

[01:18:23] And he said that at the end of games, when the seconds were ticking away, everything disappeared except the rim and the distance and the geometry of the thing. And that the rim seemed bigger and they had this whole thing. And I can imagine that, that he has blocked out anything that is unnecessary to make the shot or make this or go in for the score or whatever. So I sort of took that and thought, that's what this guy's doing.

[01:18:53] When he looks around the room, he's deciding exactly what's going to happen and how long it's going to take. And I don't know how you impart that, except you can write that like a novelistic way. But cinematically, I don't know how you impart that, but Antoine did. And so I sort of always like watching it because I thought, oh, you know, I thought of that. And it's actually on screen. Yeah.

[01:19:20] There's a reason they made that part of the marketing was because it clearly works. Yeah, it does. It does. Yeah. And one of my last two questions. And I don't like to take IMDB as gospel. I'd like to ask what you're really, what you're working on now. And you look at IMDB and it says things like the last mission and lethal weapon five. Now, I don't think lethal weapon five is necessarily the wheels are still rolling from what I've heard. I don't know. I'll put it to you. But what are you working on at the moment?

[01:19:51] I'm not working on anything right now. I am talking to them about equalizer four. I don't know what the last mission is. The last thing I did was a for Spielberg and Sony Zorro reboot that that my understanding is that they're actually. This may be news, but they may be pivoting to a Django Zorro mashup. OK.

[01:20:21] Right. Right. I was always questioning whether anyone would go see a guy on a horse in a mask. So not that the script was bad, but I think it was. I'm like, I'm just wondering how you get people in the theaters to see Zorro. And then I heard that I think Quentin had said something about doing Zorro something. And then they're talking about mashing him up. So I assume it's like Deadpool Wolverine. That worked. We should do it, too. So that was what I last finished.

[01:20:51] Lethal Weapon 5 is, unfortunately, in a rights issue thing. It's too bad because I worked with Dick on the script right up to when he died. And he had told me that if anything happened to him, which I guess he kind of felt would, that he wanted Mel to direct it. And then so that happened. And I worked with Mel for a couple of months. And the script's really good.

[01:21:21] And it's really emotional. And it's elevated from all the – it goes back to, like, the tone and the feelings of the first one. But it has – you'll be crying and whatever. And it's a shame that there's a rights thing. And so I'm still hoping that they'll work it out. But I know the money's there and everything else is there. So I think it's really just some studios fighting.

[01:21:48] That sort of thing has killed many a good project over the years. Yeah. It's a shame. Okay. So there's potentially things on the back burner, potentially equalizer four to look out for. So we'll keep an eye out there. But the last question we have for you, Richard, and this has been asked to everyone that's ever been on the show. So no pressure. All right. No pressure. But we're spy movie experts. We talk about spy movies here every week. So I want to hear from you. What's your favorite spy movie of all time?

[01:22:20] Oh, that's tough. What's the movie with Robert Redford and Brad Pitt? Spy Game. That's one of my favorites ones. I just love the way that's pieced together like a puzzle. And I believed everything in working. And I guess second day would be Three Days of the Condor. Two great picks. You're a Redford fan by the sounds of it. I didn't know they were both Redfords. I just realized that.

[01:22:48] But I always reference Three Days of the Condor because it holds up today. And it's one of the few Cold War spy movies that is appropriate for today. And in terms of the structure and the writing and the characters and the smartness of it, I don't think anyone's beat it yet. You know, I mean, the first Born came real close.

[01:23:13] But that movie, if you take it apart, it's hard to feel like it's creaky at all. So, you know, it's a model of like how to do things, you know. You'll get no argument from us. We're both big Three Days of the Condor fans. And Michael Frost-Begner, the guy who wrote Spy Game, is a listener to the show. So he'll be very thankful to hear that you picked his film too. I love it. I think it was great. Yeah. I found it to be so authentic sounding. You know, I mean, those are hard things to write.

[01:23:42] You know, CIA, you know, spooks talk in rooms and conference rooms and stuff like that. It's very hard. They, I thought that was the weakest part of Safe House, you know. But it's one of the stronger parts of Born. I believe they were speaking shorthand about stuff. And I didn't understand most of it, but I'm not supposed to. So it's an interesting thing.

[01:24:08] As a writer, you're like, I don't think anyone should understand any of this shit because we're not supposed to. And, but, you know, there's a lot of pressure to explain everything. So I would say, you know, the firstborn in those rooms with those guys were off the charts. Good stuff. Good writing. Tony Gilroy was like, great. I don't think anyone will have any thoughts with any of your choices and even bringing up the firstborn film too.

[01:24:38] Excellent choices. And Richard, I think I can speak on behalf of everyone listening. Thank you for the Equalizer films. They're all terrific. And we're going to keep continuing our mission through them for the second and third. But I'm so glad we got to have this chat with you because I think it's just invaluable for setting up the character and really going into sort of how you helped forge this new version of the Equalizer. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's really nice to get to talk about it sometimes.

[01:25:07] But, yeah, I hope to hear more from you. Hopefully we'll see you forth. We'll see how it goes. But Richard Wank, thank you for your time. Thank you so much, guys. And anytime. There you go, folks. That was our chat with Mr. Richard Wank. What a guy. This is one of my favorite type of interviews, which is like just the nuts and bolts of what went into creating a film.

[01:25:33] And, you know, the Equalizer, we had a lot of fun watching the movie and reviewing it on the show. I know it has a huge fan base as do all three of the movies. And I really think the listeners are going to appreciate hearing Richard just take us through the journey of the film. And it's one thing people don't often do with action films. We talk to people all the time about, you know, tell us about writing a drama. Tell us about writing a comedy. You know, we talked to the writer of Jumpin' Jack Flash, for example.

[01:26:01] But this is a case where, you know, the beats of the action film, in this case, were so well thought out and conceived. And, you know, obviously Richard Wank, his vision was pretty much realized on the screen. But working with great collaborators, you get to see why an action movie hits a top tier versus like a lot of the films that don't. Yeah, well, it, you know, on the surface, if you're just looking at the poster, you get the impression that the Equalizer is just sort of a...

[01:26:29] your average shoot-em-up thriller. Sure. You know, but I think it's what really brings people back to this franchise is actually when you watch the film, you realize it's actually far more driven by character. There's a lot of time just spending sort of contemplating the actions and dealing with the people as opposed to just, you know, bullets every five seconds. And I think that starts with Richard. And that was clearly his ethos. And that's why he sort of turned it down originally for many reasons. It's like it's a TV show.

[01:26:59] It's not for him. He wanted to do something with it. He wanted to sort of elevate it. And he wanted to do something to utilize Denzel Washington. And I think that's really where the magic is in this film. Yeah. And in many ways, like the Equalizer property has never been more popular than since Richard Wank tackled it. Because you have, you know, the original show, which runs, you know, I think five seasons, maybe four with Edward Woodward. Sure.

[01:27:26] But in the wake of these movies, you have three very successful films. You also have a TV series starring Queen Latifah, which has gone multiple seasons. People know what the Equalizer is in pop culture instantly. Yeah. And it just shows that, like, while that, you know, original show had its popularity, period, I think the extended life of this franchise has really kicked off with Richard Wank.

[01:27:50] And don't be surprised if, you know, 20 years from now, there are Equalizer films being made with a new actor. Oh, absolutely. This has extended the shelf life of this franchise, which I'm sure the benefactors are very happy about that. They have another IP on their hands. And, you know, like people would say, oh, Denzel is kind of the poster boy of this. And he is literally. He's on the poster.

[01:28:14] But I don't think we would be in this position without Antoine Foucault and also Richard Wank and Denzel. That sort of trifecta of the three of them have manifested this through wanting to elevate which something that could have just been like.

[01:28:32] I'm not going to name names or any other films, but, you know, a remake of the Equalizer could have easily just been a one and done attempt at something in 2014 that didn't go much further and didn't really make an impression on people. But they made it make an impression. Well, there's no shortage of TV show to film adaptations that didn't really go anywhere with longevity.

[01:28:56] Even successful ones, you know, like the Flintstones back in 94, like that movie made a lot of money, but it didn't exactly spawn a long running film series. The Equalizer in some ways would have been a less likely one, not having the big name value of some of the other TV adaptations, but one that obviously maybe because of the freedom of not being pinned down by expectations was allowed to do its own thing and find its own voice.

[01:29:22] Yeah. And I think that the freedom came a lot from having Denzel attached to it, allowed them to sort of take a little bit of a swing with this. And I think that also just lends a lot to the idea that Denzel is this megastar and it clearly is that even back in 2014, he could just wade in and be like, no, I'm making this script as is. It's basically perfect. And we're going to take some chances and we're going to spend the first 30 minutes with no action whatsoever.

[01:29:49] Well, when Richard told the story about the softball game that the studio was like, ah, drop that. And Denzel was like, nope, put it back in. That's like the great value that a movie star like Denzel has in addition to just a talent factor, the ability to be the lead of a movie like this and just play it like gangbusters.

[01:30:10] It's the ability to be a great collaborative partner for artists and be able to make the voice heard over the noise of, you know, often a nervous studio or, you know, accountants that are concerned about, you know, how much the movie can make. And we need to crib here and pull there. We need to fix this to what the market wants. People like Denzel help clear the way for more of a vision. Well, it's, you know, comparing notes.

[01:30:35] You look at some of the other interviews we've done over the years with people involved in the Mission Impossible films. Yeah. Same sort of thing. Yep. Do you remember who it was? I think it was Greg Smurz who we had on who did the stunts for Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol. The stunt coordinator for that film and I think second unit as well. And, you know, there was a whole scene where Tom Cruise was meant to break his leg and be sort of written out of future films. And he decided on set that that's not what he wanted for the character and just got the film changed.

[01:31:05] Whether you agree or disagree with that choice, that's up to you, listener. You pick your path there. But what's interesting is there are, I think, only a handful of people in Hollywood now that really have that power. Very few. And I think within our little world of spy films, I think like Matt Damon on the later Bourne films probably could have done that. Maybe the fourth one. But, yeah, it's few and far between. Yeah. Tom Cruise, him.

[01:31:33] But like whoever is the next Bond won't have that power. No. No, no. Daniel Craig. I don't know that his was power so much as a very strong collaboration in his films with the, you know, Eon. But the funny one actually is... But like Pierce Brosnan didn't. No, no. Brosnan didn't. The funny one that I would say did have that was actually Vin Diesel on the XXX films. But to what end? Well, exactly. It's like the results vary.

[01:32:01] But I would say that he was someone who did have a lot of clout. I think because they were looking to him as sort of the lead of the whole thing. Like he was the face of XXX. Whereas... Exactly. Like we had Richard Wilkes who wrote the first XXX film on the show. Great interview in the archives. Go check it out, folks. Learn about how XXX was almost the child of James Bond. Yeah. Crazy story. But, you know, it wasn't an IP.

[01:32:29] It wasn't something that had like a long-standing nostalgia like, you know, like The Equalizer or like James Bond or anything with that sort of social cachet where people might be more tempted to be like, let's not change it. Let's just keep it safe where we know what a James Bond film is or what an Equalizer is. Whereas this film rips up a lot of the concept of what The Equalizer is and forms a new one. Yeah. I think that for me, the thing that impressed me most, I mean, there was a lot to take apart in that.

[01:32:57] And we could spend another hour, me and you, taking some of our favorite moments out of that. And I will just say, sort of to what you said before, Cam, these are the sort of interviews I'm always chasing for us. I love going behind the scenes on films. I love speaking with actors. I'll speak with actors all day long. Denzel, if you want to come talk to us, let's manifest it now. Come on. Come on over to SpyHards. Why not? Why not aim for the sky, eh? But there's a certain magic to talking to directors and screenwriters.

[01:33:24] Because ultimately, I tend to find they're the ones who have this just ingrained passion for cinema. And it was interesting talking to Richard about sort of his concept of the trilogy, the Equalizer trilogy. And to him, for a long time, that was sort of it. Yeah. Where we saw the third one last year. I think it was last year at this point. And that was a perfect ending for him. And now there's talk of doing a fourth and a fifth. And for a while, he wasn't interested. And he sort of gave us a little bit of a scoop that he's having conversations about doing the fourth now.

[01:33:54] So all the power to him. And I hope that something happens. But ultimately, it's nice to know that if it doesn't, he will be more than happy. And yeah, that he completed his three-film story that tackled the three facets of the character that intrigued him the most initially. Yeah. And I will also add, it was just also quite a novelty to talk about the sort of Home Depot shootout. And how it was basically just Richard and Antoine walking around, is it Home Depot?

[01:34:24] No, Home Mart in the movie. Home Mart in the movie. But when they were actually doing the research, it was Home Depot. And just walking around, I mean, for Brits listening, I don't know, a B&Q or a Home Base are our versions of that. Or Rona, Rona in Canada. Oh, there you go. Just going around and just sort of talking about the implements they might use in a murder spree. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, yeah. It's the fun of filmmaking, eh?

[01:34:51] Stories like that are a big part of why I enjoy these kind of interviews too. It was just like, everyone loves that scene, but now you get a really funny story about just the creation of it. Yeah, you just think like, there must have been a moment when they were doing that, where they had to sort of stop and be like, we're getting paid quite handsomely. Yeah. Maybe, maybe not so handsomely, but getting paid to walk around envisioning death sequences, like Final Destination style death sequences in this Home Depot.

[01:35:17] I mean, never grow up kids. You can be playing with action figures one day and then in the future doing things like this and having an absolute ball doing it. That makes me curious as to your action figure collection. And if many of them had like scythes or power drills or like wood cutting material. Were you just playing with like maintenance men dolls as a kid? I don't think such things existed that I can think of. No, I was a He-Man into Ninja Turtles and Star Wars figures guy.

[01:35:47] Did they ever play together? Yeah, yeah. They intermingled sometimes. Yeah. Who was your go-to? Actually, here's a question then. It's not really connected, but I guess I'm just curious now. Who's your turtle? Oh, Raphael. I can see you thinking you're Raphael. Right? Because he's like the moody, almost like vigilante type, which of course connects very well to the Equalizer. I know who I would be. I know who I picked as a kid. Sure. Leonardo, right?

[01:36:17] No. Oh, I was going to say that's who the square people always pick. Thanks. Michelangelo? Yeah. Oh, okay. Party dude, huh? Really? I just liked the fact he liked pizza. That was really my in. I was like, you know, I have four brothers, so we were always fighting for the turtles, and then one of us had to be April. Right, yeah.

[01:36:44] So it was like, oh, I guess we could have been like Casey Jones, but like, I don't know why we just chose April as the fifth. I mean, it makes sense. She's the fifth of the core five. Until like later shows where there's like a female turtle, I think? I think Venus to Milo. Yeah, I guess you could have been Splinter, but anyways. We've got sidetracked here. I could have been Splinter. I'm hearing people at home like, why don't you just be like Master Shredder? No, no, no. I'm not going to be a villain.

[01:37:10] Anyway, the Equalizer. Richard, it was a blast speaking to you. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us. I hope you all enjoyed it at home. We certainly did. Yeah, this was an absolute blast to take part in, and I'm really happy to give it to all of you to listen to now. We're not finished though with the Equalizer. We've got two and three, and hey, maybe even four in the future. Coming up in the future of the show, we won't be tackling the sequels for a little bit, but give it a couple of months and we'll come back for the second one.

[01:37:39] But next week, Cam, I'm sure we're back with some more spy jinx. What do we have for everyone? Scott, we are tackling the 1948 Red Skelton Civil War comedy, Southern Yankee. Why? Because spy hard's got a spy hard. We do, and frankly, we love doing it. This is a real spy hard special for you all. A bit of a palate cleanse from this week's film.

[01:38:04] I haven't seen it yet, so I can't really comment on what Red Skelton has stored up for us, but Cam and I have become weirdly interested in Civil War spy films. Over the years, and we've found a surprising many of them. There are more than you would ever imagine. Yeah, so let's have another one. Why not? Who doesn't want another slice of pie at the end of the day, right? Exactly. It's delicious. Delicious. Delicious Civil War pie. Get that Red Skelton right down your gullet.

[01:38:33] Red like strawberries. Delish. So your mission, folks, should you choose to accept it, to join us next week as we take a look at 1948's Southern Yankee. If you like what you heard on this episode, I mean, firstly, hit subscribe. All the cool kids are doing it. And some not cool people like us are also doing it too. So if you're either cool or not cool, hit subscribe. Check out our back catalog. If you like this kind of interview, we've got a ton of them.

[01:39:02] A lot of spy movies, a lot of spy movie interviews with a lot of screenwriters. I could start riffing and naming you some off the top of my head, but there's a lot in there. I mean, going all the way back to, you know, our first one was Nicholas Meyer, who worked on Tomorrow Never Dies. We've had John August, who wrote the Charlie's Angels films. We've had Don McPherson, who wrote the 1998 Avengers film. Yep. I'm not selling it necessarily with a couple of those choices, but they're interesting.

[01:39:28] And, you know, one of the first ones in this sort of style, we spoke to the writer of Firefox, the Clint Eastwood film, Mr. Wendell Wellman. And again, it was a real like deep dive into creating a story for a spy movie. And I think this is sort of an invaluable style of interview that we just love doing. Yeah. Well, exactly. And I look forward to many more to come. Hear, hear. So, yeah, go check those out. And if you want to help support the show, it does cost us money to run it. We don't shove ads down your throat.

[01:39:58] There's no ads currently on the show, just the ones that we put on to talk about ourselves. Join us over on our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes below. Some very inexpensive options for joining us. If you have the spare change and it isn't going to break the bank for you, we'd love to have you over there on our Patreon. There's a great group of people talking about spy movies over there and their love of spy movies and spyhards. So come and join us over on the Patreon.

[01:40:25] Don't forget to also follow us on social media, wherever one might media their socials these days at spyhards, S-P-Y-H-A-R-D-S on Facebook, on Instagram. And you can find some Blue Sky now as well. If you want to get off one of those other apps that I won't mention, maybe a good time. I am off. So join me outside of it. Yes. He doesn't post on Blue Sky either, folks. But I'm there. Yeah, I'm there. Let's be honest. I run the accounts. I'm there. I'm on Blue Sky.

[01:40:54] Follow me, people. He needs the love and attention. But until next week, folks, I'm heading off to my local Home Depot to come up with some imaginative ways of maiming Cam.