204. The Equalizer (2014)

[00:00:36] Hello and welcome to SpyHards Podcast, where your hosts go deep undercover into the world of spy movies to decipher which films make the knock list. But remember, this information, as it always is, is strictly for your ears only. I'm Agent Scott. And I'm Cam the Provocateur. And Scott, what do you see when you look at me? A broken, tired man. Accurate. Accurate.

[00:01:06] I recently went to the opticians. Oh, did you? I did. And they said to me, your eyes are remarkable. Okay. Not a single problem with them. There's no joke here. I was just like, oh, alright, I have great vision. And it was just quite reassuring to know that one thing works. Everything else has fallen by the wayside, but those eyes, they're living on. These eyes will be, you know, reused for science, I'm sure.

[00:01:34] You could say that you have golden eyes. Bum bum bum bum. Golden eyes. You'll never know how Scott watched you from the shadows as a child. And I can with my amazing eyes. That's right. That's right. Yeah, it is. We've got a great film to talk about this week, starting off a new franchise, because we just closed a few in the last sort of bracket of films.

[00:01:59] But I will just take a second to just throw a cheap plug about our Patreon. And usually we put an ad in the middle of the show, we talk about it at the end. But I had a note recently that we should promote it up front. So here it is. Cam, I'm going to put you on the spot. Why should people join our Patreon? Because who wouldn't want to hear more from us? Right? You could hear more about my optician's appointments. But just like, instead of getting four episodes a month, you can get sort of like seven or eight maybe.

[00:02:27] And maybe we go through all of our appointments. Maybe Cam goes to the gastroenterologist. Maybe I go to a urologist. And you get to find out all the gory details literally about what's happening inside of us. Oh, and then we talk about spy TV shows like Slow Horses and Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. You know, that stuff too. And also recording devices have gotten smaller and less obvious as time's gone on. So who knows what secret audio we could get from these doctor's appointments.

[00:02:54] I was genuinely trying to bring it around to a cell at the end there. But this is, to be fair, this is actually exactly on point of what you get on the Patreon. A lot of us messing around and being idiots. But we talk about stuff you want to hear us talk about as well. A lot of spy TV shows. We always get requests from you all to talk about spy TV. So maybe, maybe we should do an episode on the Equalizer TV show. I think we should. And also, you know, I know people want to hear us talk about the Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and Smiley's People miniseries.

[00:03:24] They're going to be on the Patreon folks. Heads up. Yeah. And I just got a text the other day from a friend of the show, George. And he said, are you guys covering Andor? Right. Because season two is coming out soon. Or maybe out by the time this episode's out. I'm not too sure. But that's all going to be on the Patreon. So if you want to hear about Andor folks, head on over to patreon.com slash spyhards. But that's enough cheap plug-in. Let's equalize.

[00:03:54] All right. It's time to unleash a new franchise. Cameron, what are we talking about? We are tackling 2014's The Equalizer starring Denzel Washington and directed by Antoine Fuqua and based on the hit 1980s TV series starring Edward Woodward. Edward Woodward. I just watched the Queen Latifah show all day. It's really hard to say Edward Woodward. Edward Woodward. I think you're right, actually. Edward.

[00:04:22] If you do like a British style RP BBC accent, Edward Woodward, it's fine because you can slow down. But if you try and say it real fast, you just... Yeah. You sound like Whisper in Live and Let Die. I want to give a thanks to both Denzel and Queen Latifah for having names I can say very quickly. Yes. Well done to you both. Although I haven't actually seen the Queen Latifah show, so maybe I shouldn't send congratulations.

[00:04:48] My plan is because the streaming rights for The Equalizer 80s TV show were not available. I was going to watch an episode or two. There was one that was in small pieces on Daily Motion, but I didn't want to sit through commercials every minute and a half. Sure. I was just like, what a terrible way to experience that pilot. But I think I'm going to watch the first episode of the Queen Latifah show when we get towards where that show falls in the chronology of the series.

[00:05:17] So when did that show come out? I think it came out between the second and third movie. Which is interesting given that Denzel said this film was just a contractual obligation to him and it's turned into this big old franchise. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, The Equalizer is obviously a brand that who knows if Denzel signed on thinking this would be a franchise or not.

[00:05:41] But it was something that I'm sure other people were looking at going, this could have longevity to it. And it seems to be, I think they've, have they confirmed four and five at this point? Yeah. They have said there are going to be a four and five. Yes. They'll probably shoot them pretty close together because Denzel's not getting any younger. Yeah. But to be fair, he's still tearing up the show. Gladiator 2 was like his, you know, his glory. It's true. You're very accurate there. And also they can do amazing things with stunt doubles.

[00:06:11] Which they do in this film too. Yes, they do. Mm-hmm. But you know, it's a new franchise and I'm glad to equalize. I guess so, I, you know, I'll read the synopsis for the film in a second, but I know nothing about the original TV show. I don't either. My dad was actually a big fan of it when it was on the air. Cause I would, I didn't see the first movie with him, but I saw the second two with him. Sure. And I would ask him afterwards, just like questions about the equalizer TV show. Like did this sort of thing happen on the show? This is very ultraviolet. Did he kill on the show?

[00:06:40] And he would always answer all my questions. Are you going to tell us the story later or is it more just, you know, can tell us the answer to those questions? Well, I mean, this was a, this was a cable TV show or I should say a primetime TV show. Right. On network cable. So it wasn't going to be as ultra violent obviously, but he said he did actually kill people on the show, which was actually a bit of a surprise to me. I thought it'd be more of a incredible Hulk kind of show or the fugitive where, you know, he wanders around and helps people. I mean, does, was, did he have that spy background that he also has in this?

[00:07:10] He did. Yes. So that's interesting. That, that does actually mean that that show does have potential to be tackled on the Patreon. We'll come back to that, but then for the equalizer itself, we must have a synopsis and cam. There's not a lot of suspense in this film, but there is in this synopsis. It contains a dot, dot, dot more. Awesome. Okay. For a very simple movie. Okay. Go for it. Oh, it's, it's, this is huge. Quite the mouthful.

[00:07:40] The equalizer. What do you see when you look at me? Huh? Yeah. They, so they actually used the, the line from the movie as their tagline. Interesting. I was hoping you'd say the same thing back to me that I said to you earlier. McCall believes he has put his mysterious past behind him and dedicated himself to beginning a new quiet life. But when he meets Terry, a young girl under the control of ultra violent Russian gangsters, he can't stand idly by. He has to help her.

[00:08:11] Armed with hidden skills that allow him to serve vengeance against anyone who would brutalize the helpless, McCall comes out of his self-imposed retirement and finds his desire for justice and he's reawakened if someone, dot, dot, dot, dot more, has a problem. If the odds are stacked against him, if they have nowhere else to turn, McCall will help. He is the equalizer. Boom.

[00:08:39] Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. You're doing the A-team theme? Well, because if someone has a problem, if the odds are stacked against him, it's like the A-team intro line, isn't it? Yeah, I guess it kind of is. And that's why I was kind of surprised to hear he kills on the show because the A-team, you had four guys with machine guns running around every episode and no one died on that show really. Really? I've never really watched the A-team. We've only seen the film. I was a big fan of the TV show back in the day, but it was a lot of like exploding

[00:09:08] cars or motorcycles and bad guys going, ahhhh, being arrested at the end. It does make sense because you do love it when the plan comes together. You do. And I guess we'll talk more about the A-team when we tackle the movie on the show. Will we? Yeah, it's got a pretty heavy CIA storyline running through it. Wow. I don't remember that at all. I don't really remember much about the film. I just remember, is it Bradley Cooper? He's Face, yeah. Okay. Yeah, nothing there.

[00:09:36] But okay, well, we'll be coming back to the A-team. We can hop in the A-team-a-bill. Is that what they call it? Uh, I don't remember what they call it, but also the A-team movie has a lot of homages to Roger Moore Bond films. Oh, okay. I did want to say hop in the van. Something about that disturbs me. Yeah, that sounds a little creepy. It's four dudes in the van. Let's get in with them. Like, that'll go well, right? And previously Liam Neeson killed people like that on screen. I'm glad you added the on screen tag at the end because I thought you were going somewhere

[00:10:06] with that. Like, this just in. Liam Neeson, mass murderer. I'm thinking of the movie Taken, of course, where he was capturing and killing many people who were traffickers. This humor has gone really downward spiral, but I suppose it's appropriate with the subplot of this movie. And I think also mentioning Taken is very apt. Yeah. No, I mean, Taken is a movie that definitely popped through my head many times watching The Equalizer. Yeah. And I, um, I mean, just we'll do like our connections to it.

[00:10:35] Obviously I haven't seen the show. I hadn't seen this film. I'd only ever seen Equalizer 3. You started at the third at the quote unquote conclusion to the series as they pitched it at the time. Yeah. His Italian jaunt or whatever it was. Well, like, was it Malta or Greece or something? It was definitely the sort of Mediterranean. It was in Italy, as I recall. Yeah. It was like a vacation for all involved. I'm sure. I'm sure. Yeah. I saw this movie in theaters.

[00:11:01] Uh, no familiarity at the time really with the TV program other than my dad just telling me about it. Um, but, uh, went with friend of the show, Tyler Orton, who was on our diamonds episode. Um, and, uh, enjoyed the movie, but was quite surprised at the running time of the film. Uh, yes. Yes. That is a point I might make later. Yeah.

[00:11:25] And I do remember though, we really were, uh, very amused by the, um, Hallmark massacre at the conclusion of the film. Like the elements. I wrote Home Alone Depot. Yeah. Yeah. Like the, um, the kind of the really cool Denzel moments really connected, but it was a case of like, boy, this, how long is this film? Like, why is it this long? I have a theory for why, but I feel like this is going to come back later. So maybe I'll save it for then. Yeah. Okay.

[00:11:54] But, but did you, did you enjoy your experience with it back in 2014? Yeah. And I was definitely open to watching a sequel or a third film or whatever. Well, clearly there's a lineage here. Clearly there's a history, but how did we begin or re-begin to equalize? Well, this is, as I said, based on the show, the equalizer rich, which ran on TV from 1985 to 1989.

[00:12:21] And as I said, starred the difficult to pronounce Edward Woodward, uh, who was a five time Emmy nominee for his lead role on that show. And the show was created by Richard Lindheim, who was primarily known for equalizer. He did a couple other things, but primarily his career is built around the equalizer TV show. And it was also created by Michael Sloan, who was much more of a veteran TV guy who

[00:12:46] also wrote the Return of the Man from U.N.C.L.E. TV movie, as well as, um, created a show that I have a lot of love for, Kung Fu The Legend Continues, starring David Carradine. I have never, do you say this is a show? Yeah. I've never heard of that. Wasn't David Carradine the chap in Kill Bill? He was indeed. And yeah, he got... And like, schlock movie maestro.

[00:13:10] Um, well he was, but um, he was also the lead of the TV series Kung Fu, which is what, uh, lined him up perfectly for Kill Bill. Yeah, okay, that lines up well. Fair enough. Yeah. And so, this TV show was very popular in its time period, and the kind of property that was probably being kicked around in the wake of the success of all these TV to film adaptations like The Fugitive or The Flintstones movies that, uh, you know, took these properties and

[00:13:40] made a lot of money. The Brady Bunch as well. But, nothing really came out publicly in terms of, you know, development of this TV series until 2005, when producer Mace Neufeld, who'd worked on the Jack Ryan film adaptations, teamed with Michael Sloan, the co-creator, and TV series executive producer Terry Eldridge to bring the show to the big screen. At that point, the Weinstein Company snapped up the rights and were going to, uh, put this film out.

[00:14:10] And, uh, nothing really happened for two years. So that's 2005. But then in 2007, it was announced that Scottish director Paul McGuigan, uh, would helm the film. And he's best known for movies like Gangster No. 1, Lucky No. 11, and later on down the road, um, post, uh, when this movie would have been made, uh, he made Victor Frankenstein. With Daniel Radcliffe.

[00:14:36] And a movie that people might not know by the top of their memories, the, um, biopic Film Stars Don't Die in Liverpool, which was produced by Barbara Broccoli. Who's that about? It was about actress Gloria Graham and her relationship with a much younger man. And it starred Annette Bening and Jamie Bell. I mean, you were right. I didn't know it. Yeah. Uh, I saw it actually in a theater. They did like a, uh, just a screening, not like in a major movie theater and more of an auditorium.

[00:15:03] They did a screening of it at a local, uh, venue. Um, I'm not sure why it was kind of like a press thing or evening movie programming. No, no. It's just like programming for the public. Uh, and it was kind of like a movie series. I think aimed at maybe like, uh, older, um, movie goers who would want to watch certain movies. Like they would have more like kind of older adult entertainment. Like this. And then reefer madness. Exactly.

[00:15:30] But you know, things like those oldies out there folks, maybe something like best exotic Marigold hotel. Um, I, I, I get what you're playing to. Yeah. Playful. And it also makes sense that it was perhaps, you know, targeted to older people that you were there. Yes, exactly. Well, I went with my mom. Oh, I feel bad now. I like your mom. I'm sorry. It was a very enjoyable movie, but there was some scenes that, uh, I didn't really want to be sitting there watching with my mom. Oh, do tell a lot of sex scenes in this film. Oh, don't tell. Don't ask.

[00:16:01] And the movie would be written by T L Lankford and novelist Michael Connolly. Um, these two are the brain trust behind the TV series Bosch. Michael Connolly is also a novelist. He wrote the Bosch novels and he also wrote the Lincoln lawyer novels. I, I always see advertisements for Bosch, but, uh, there's also a quite popular like DIY brand called Bosch in the UK. And so I think they've just, it wasn't well named for the UK. Oh, okay.

[00:16:30] I don't, I don't think it's SEO optimized. Sure. Yeah. I think it's interesting though. You had two pretty prestigious writers adapting this and their names are nowhere on the finished film. So I'm curious what happened along the trail for the equalizer. Isn't that your job? Uh, well, we don't know that. Those details are lost to the sands of time at the moment. We'll see if we can dig into that a little later. Uh, perhaps, but, uh, so that's 2007 in 2010.

[00:16:57] Um, it was announced that they had a star and that star was Mr. Russell Crowe. Oh, oh. Yes. And the movie would be directed at that point by Paul Haggis, the, uh, writer director who was behind movies like Crash in the Valley of Aila and had worked with Russell Crowe on the next three days. And Paul Haggis also, of course, uh, co-wrote Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. And has gone on to have several problems with the law. Yes.

[00:17:28] Paul Haggis, um, yeah. A name that, uh, doesn't hold up great, but, uh, at that point... Not appearing on a Spy Master interview anytime soon. It's Paul Haggis. That's right. That's right. But, uh, yeah, so it was going to be a Russell Crowe, Paul Haggis venture. At the time they had no shooting script, but I would assume that Paul Haggis probably would have written it, right? Or at least overhauled something. Well, given that he did this, he did, uh, Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. Yeah.

[00:17:55] That's like, sounds like his next job. Well, it's like he wrote Crash, he wrote In the Valley of Aila, he wrote, like, a lot of movies. So I would assume if you're hiring him to direct the Equalizer, he's probably going to put, you know, pen to paper at some point. Or at least, like, co-writing duties. Exactly. So, none of that comes to pass. Um, everyone leaves. That version of the Equalizer. And then in 2011, Denzel Washington takes over it. Mm.

[00:18:25] And the movie is going to be directed by Danish director, Nicholas Winding Refn, who had made movies like the Pusher Trilogy, Drive, and the Neon Demon. Drive? Yeah. Vibes with this a little bit. I think if Refn makes this movie, it's a little artier than the finished product we see here. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is a more cinematic Hollywood glossy version of, I suppose, what we would have got from him.

[00:18:51] But there are elements in this story I could see the man who made Drive being attracted to. Yes. And at this point, the movie is in Sony's hands. And, uh, Nicholas Winding Refn can't make a deal with Sony, so he drops out. Is that why this film is littered with Sony laptops and phones and, uh, tablets? And I think, uh, there's like a hi-fi that's Sony at some point as well. Like it really is Sony wall to wall. It's like watching a Spider-Man film. I can't imagine that's why.

[00:19:21] Oh. Oh. Right. Oh. Isn't that, don't they call that vertical, vertical integration? I think they do. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, um, as much as I- I feel dirty saying that. As much as I loved Into the Spider-Verse, which was the first of the, uh, Spider-Verse animated films, the, uh, product placement for Sony in that one is really jarring. Yeah. It's like headphones and there's quite a few things. Yeah. I agree.

[00:19:46] I mean, I, it's funny, like in animation, why on earth would you detail the brand? It was a choice. It was a choice. It's the one knock against that movie I could even come up with because otherwise it's an incredible movie. Um, but Nicholas Winding Refn is out. And so they bring in Antoine Fuqua who has a relationship with Denzel Washington, having directed him in training day. But Fuqua, who's a producer director started, uh, directing music videos in the like early

[00:20:14] nineties, right in 1990 and worked with a lot of artists like high five, Brian McKnight, heavy D Tony Braxton, Shanice, Coolio and Prince and got his big movie break in 1998 when he directed the replacement killers with Mir Sorvino and Chow Yun-fat. I've seen training day, but that's all I have there. That's all you got. Okay. Yeah. He was someone who started off right there and kind of a B action movie.

[00:20:39] He did the 2000 Jamie Foxx movie bait, which I think is pretty forgotten. And then right the year after bait, he does training day, which is a big hit. He earns Denzel the Oscar, gets a bunch of other Oscar nominations as well. Ethan Hawke's nominated for best supporting actor. And then Fuqua goes on kind of a very unsteady run. He makes, uh, tears of the sun, the pretty forgotten Bruce Willis film. He does King Arthur, the very expensive bomb starring Keira Knightley and Clive Owen. What?

[00:21:10] You didn't see King Arthur. I would have thought it would have been your national duty as a Brit to see King Arthur opening weekend. No, I, I, to be fair, I'm not that interested in our own history, especially the made up stuff. Sure. Sure. I mean, you're sitting at a round table right now, but yeah, the heck with it. Right. But in classic Scott style, it's just me. That's right. The Knights are just, the Knights are just like skeletons in armor. They're my friends, Cam.

[00:21:38] And you keep swearing that Morgana's put a curse on you just going by the trajectory of your life. See, you, you already know more about this stuff than I do. I don't even know who that is. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I'm gonna let the Brits in the audience deal with you online over this. Uh, and I'm going to move on. Oi! Oi, Scott! Oh no, they've come! They've come to get me! He also directed the Mark Wahlberg film Shooter, which I think also spawned a TV series.

[00:22:02] And, uh, the attempt to kind of tap back into the, uh, training day, uh, dramatic cop element with the movie Brooklyn's Finest, which I just, it did not connect either. And it wasn't until 2013 when he did Olympus Has Fallen that it was like, okay, he's kind of back because that was a lower budget action movie with Gerard Butler, spawned a franchise, made a lot of money. Oh, that was the first one, wasn't it? It was, yeah.

[00:22:30] And he rolls right from Olympus Has Fallen into this movie and had another hit. And since then has done all the Equalizer movies. He did the Magnificent Seven remake with Denzel. Um, he's, I believe, currently working on, I don't think the movie would be out at the time of release, but, uh, he's working on a Michael Jackson biopic right now. Is that the one starring like his nephew or something? Yeah, and Miles Teller is in it as well as like a key figure in his life, yeah. So I'm just looking at that.

[00:22:58] It's in post-production now, but I think it does have a release date. Yeah, it's called Michael. Yeah, that's it. Wow, he looks just like him. That's uncanny. Right? Yeah. Despite the guys past, I, a big Michael Jackson fan musically at least. Um, so that one does excite me more than some of the biopics we've had recently. Sure. Yeah. I mean, in terms of the music, I think this movie is going to make a lot of money because people are going to want to hear and see those performances recreated.

[00:23:25] Let's just say, uh, Robbie Williams' film, which I've already forgotten the name of, will pale in comparison. Sure, sure. Although it might have a chimp because Bubbles is in it. Hey! Well done, Cam. Thank you, thank you. Uh, and taking over writing duties on The Equalizer and the person with the sole credit is Richard Wink, who's a New Jersey-born writer. We talked about him previously on the show because he adapted The Mechanic in terms of the remake situation in 2011.

[00:23:54] And he started out as a director, actually, on a 1979 short called Dracula Bites the Big Apple, kind of a horror comedy. And then he wrote and directed a vampire comedy called Vamp in 1986. And directed a couple things, uh, notably in 1998, Andy Garcia, Andy McDowell rom-com called Just a Ticket. And then he moves into writing action films, which is a really interesting shift in his career.

[00:24:22] But at that point, it's just writing a lot of action movies. He starts in 2006 with 16 Blocks, the Bruce Willis film directed by Richard Donner. And then, uh, he does The Mechanic. He does Expendables 2. And he rolls into that Equalizer franchise. And I guess now is a good time to announce this week's Spymaster interview. We don't have them every week, but when we can get them, we bring them to you. And that is the man Cam's talking about, Richard Wenk himself. That's right, yes.

[00:24:51] I'm very excited to hear from him in terms of the, where he enters the production. Because what I have here is like, he joins around the Antoine Fuqua period. But I'd like to know if he was brought in earlier and helped kind of transition from those earlier writers into what we have. I want to know those answers. And also what some of the earlier permutations looked like. Were they any different to this? Like, what were some... We've had it before. We've had people on who've done rewrites on films and been the last writer at the end.

[00:25:18] And they can kind of tell you what was previous material and what was theirs. Yeah. Like, was it a, you know, relatively close one-to-one from Russell Crowe to Denzel with like, you know, the watch element, the hallmark, all that stuff. Was it all in place or not? My guess is it was pretty created whole cloth for Denzel. But I want to know those answers. Like, that's the stuff I'm really interested in. Well, it's a very particular character they've created. Yeah. In this film.

[00:25:44] So I don't have the grounding in the TV show to know if any of those idiosyncrasies are from the TV show. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I'm keen to see what Richard has to say and sort of what that conversation was. Yeah. So that'll be a lot of fun and look for that later this week. Um, the only other note I had in terms of the production was Chloe Grace Moretz gets the, uh, you know, co-lead as Terry, although her character's in the movie far less than I remembered. I was blown away by that. Right? I always associate her with this film.

[00:26:14] Me too. And I was like, oh, she literally disappears from about the 20 minute mark until the last scene of the film. Yeah. I was stunned watching the movie. I'm like, wait, she hasn't been on screen for like 45 minutes now. It's something I'm going to come back to because she's also like in a lot of the artwork. She's your second build, as you say. It's just odd. Yeah. It's just odd. And originally the character was supposed to be in her twenties and they ended up making her a teenager because her chemistry read with Denzel was so strong.

[00:26:44] I'm guessing she was younger than that age at the time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, we're knocking her not being in the film. I guess what the intent behind what we're saying is we wanted to see more. Yeah. And they were going for a bit of a taxi driver riff here where it was like the Jodie Foster child prostitute and going towards this character here. Um, there was a note on Wikipedia. I could not find confirmed anywhere else about other actresses in contention for this role.

[00:27:12] I'll just, uh, read them out, but take it with a grain of salt. The names listed were Anna Kendrick, Kelly McDonald and Nina Doprev. All a little bit older. But if they're saying the character was originally supposed to be in her twenties, that would make sense. Yeah. I guess of all the people, Anna Kendrick is the one I feel like I could see. Well, I look at her winding up in the accountant franchise. So she was clearly open to sort of a pulpy action franchise.

[00:27:41] Which is another thing I think I might come back to. Sure. Uh, the budget for this movie was 55 million. A nice conservative number there. Domestically did 101.5 international 90.8 for a worldwide total of 192.3. Well, that's a, almost quadrupling. That's not bad. No. I mean, that's the key to making a movie that is a modest budget in terms of, you know,

[00:28:08] how much people spend on movies these days is that you can launch a franchise without having to make 400 million plus. It beggars belief that Hollywood haven't figured this out by now. You just do a mid to low budget action film or anything. Something you're not maybe a hundred percent on, but you want to give it a shot. Don't spend too much. Just put it out there. Cast a lesser known name if you want to and just see what happens. It doesn't, not everything has to be 180 million. And then it has to spawn a franchise.

[00:28:35] I mean, Argyle is one of the, I know that's last year, but a good example. I know that obviously conversations have gone back and forth as to what the actual budget for that film was 180 or 60, blah, blah, blah. But it was supposed to launch a franchise. Well, I mean this morning, the day of recording, I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about what a disaster the new Captain America film is. Sure. Because it costs $180 million and it's only going to gross about $450 worldwide.

[00:29:03] Now, $450 worldwide, when you really think about those numbers, like that's not horrific, but because they spent so much on a movie that frankly looks far worse than the equalizer. Yep. You know. Easily. It's not even a question. One looks like cinema, one looks like a TV episode. Yeah. And I know like you can argue back to that point if I'm playing contrarian, there's a lot of effects needed for Captain America, Brave New World. Like you have to have the Hulk and all the Falcon stuff, all that sort of thing.

[00:29:33] Like that costs more. I understand that argument, but they also wrote the script. Exactly. Yes. And it's not like some of those big effect sequences were exciting in any way, shape or form. Did you like that bit where those two things flew around and didn't die? Okay. Thrilling. Thrilling stuff. That happens the entire film. Yeah. And so this movie landed at number 44 at the 2014 worldwide box office between The Other Woman, which was a Cameron Diaz, Leslie Mann comedy, and the Chinese comedy Breakup Buddies.

[00:30:03] Which is actually what I call our group chat. And the top three for the year, number one was Transformers, Age of Extinction. Number two, The Hobbit, Battle of the Five Armies. Ugh. And number three, Guardians of the Galaxy, the first one. Oh. So. That was a very important year for me actually then. Yeah. Number three there is a really good movie that's had a legacy, whereas the other two, not so much. I couldn't tell you what happened in Age of Extinction.

[00:30:31] Uh, it had the Dinobots. That's all I could tell you. Was that, who was the lead of the series by that point? Mark Wahlberg. It's his first. It's his first one. Is that the fourth film? It's the fourth one. It's the one that's longer than The Godfather. Oh, God. Oh, God. Which is an amazing distinction. Autobots, transform and keep rolling. And rolling, and rolling, and rolling, and rolling, and rolling. Limp Bizkit, what are you doing here?

[00:31:03] So there's no other final notes on this one. It was not like an awards contender or anything like that. But we can just say that the equalizer will equalize again. I don't think we should say that. I don't think anyone should say that. Well, it's sad. And this is why you don't write for a living. I did once. Oh, why? Well, I think that says it all, doesn't it? Once. God!

[00:31:33] The chaos and rubble of my life. How the mighty have fallen. Yes. Now you podcast about spy movies with a guy from England that has no credentials whatsoever. Hello darkness, my old friend. And yet, has booked way more interviews than you ever have in your life. Well, that's not my job on the show. I'm the editor. Oh. I didn't bring in whose job is whose. Just saying, man. Just saying.

[00:32:02] Who's the rock star here? Who's the true equalizer here? Why must you put me down on the equalizer episode? Say my name. I don't know. It just felt natural. You're being a real Teddy. Teddy? The villain in this movie. That says a lot. Yeah. That genuinely says a lot about this film. And I'll get back to that. But let's equalize. Let's talk about it. I just whacked my microphone stand. I'm that uptight. No, I just want to talk about it. I've got a lot to say about equalizer.

[00:32:32] You've seen it before. So I think I'm going to let you go second if that's alright. Go for it. People online seem to love this film. You posted on Twitter. Oh, I'm watching equalizer. Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like. It's interesting. Because for me, I don't want to go against the grain. It's all sizzle. And not a whole lot of stakes. Okay. Don't get me wrong.

[00:32:59] Denzel does a fantastic job with the performance. I think he really has created the character that has clearly gone on to, you know, other things. I can't say brighter. But ultimately, like, aside from the set pieces, aside from his character, nothing about this film jumps off the page to me. It feels like just the dad on the revenge tour playbook. It's it's we have taken at home. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[00:33:25] You weren't moved by the plight of Ralphie, the aspiring security guard. Ralphie was the only person I cared about. Oh, interesting. I wanted him to get that job. I was rooting for Ralphie. I was hoping he'd get like the final shot on the bad guy at the end of some sort of like, let's go Ralphie. Right.

[00:33:42] But, you know, I weak villain over long and just a lot of like contemplative shots of him, like setting things up, which I'm sure some people really dig. And I if you do, that's all the power to you. But like, I never felt anything. I never felt there was any danger. I never felt there was any tension in the film. He's practically invulnerable. Yeah. And some people really get off of that.

[00:34:12] You look at the taken films. They may bank. Mm hmm. People want to see that, which is fine. But to me, this is a lesser version of taken one. If I want to see this, I'll just go watch, you know, Brian Mills lose his daughter. Because at least then there's a personal stake in getting his daughter back. And you see her, you know, being sort of genuinely passed around and seeing people around her get killed because of the lifestyle she's been pulled into this.

[00:34:39] This, you see what happens to Chloe Moretz very early. And that's it. Like, then you just have to go, yeah, here are the bad guys. We have to kill them. Okay. And we never got to hear her songs. I was like making a note of that. There's the album he's holding in his hands that says my songs by Alina. And I'm like, you have to play one of the songs at some point, right? Or show him listening to this.

[00:35:08] And we never hear the songs. I wonder, I genuinely wonder if they ever took a, like a go at Chloe singing something. I wonder maybe she just couldn't really pull it off. But I'm like thinking to myself, like, come on, like this movie has a $55 million budget. That's not peanuts. No. And we saw a peanuts movie called Cats and Dogs 3 where we got to hear the girls sing, run, run, run. Like, at least they gave us that.

[00:35:37] But we also all collectively mercilessly mocked that film for that scene. Maybe that is the sort of Samuel L. Jackson, I won't run of it all. Like, I'm not going to sing because I'm bad at it. So if we just don't have me singing, you'll never know. Hmm. Okay. Maybe they should have picked a different career choice for Alina. Like something that they could have shown on screen in some way. What would you pick?

[00:36:02] Even if it was like actress, you could have like him watching like a demo tape of her like doing a monologue or something. Oh, that's so creepy. Check out my demo tape. He's back in his like single house, single room apartment watching a videotape of this girl on repeat because he can't do anything else other than his planned routine stuff. So he watches it about 20 times in a row. I've just described your teenage years, Cam. I'm trying to think of what Shakespearean character she would have been recreating on her demo tape.

[00:36:31] Oh, like in a really badly set dressed house. It's clearly someone's bedroom. There's no subtlety in this movie. It's Juliet. Yeah, it's Juliet. Yeah. Unless you really like gender swaps it. She plays Romeo and we're like, oh, well, you know, she's trying for something. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think she's going for like Titus Andronicus's daughter or something like that. I think that's lost on the targeted audience of this film. Well, I think exactly. So they would have gone with Juliet if they were to go the actress route. Titus what? Yeah. No, thanks.

[00:37:01] Yeah. So and so what baffles me is clearly it made money. Clearly it has an audience. And so did the taken films. They did three of those. But I just I really thought I was I was just let down by the whole thing. I really thought this was actually a really special film that people were like, this is this is one of Denzel's top five. You've got to watch it. I don't think so, man. I'd rather watch that unstoppable film with Chris Pine than this any day. Uh, yeah.

[00:37:30] Unstoppable is a very underrated thriller. Yeah. One that I think people somewhat dismiss, but well worth a revisit, I think. Uh, my take on the equalizer is this is kind of that post taken pulp action storytelling. Like we would call them dad action movies to a degree. Like they became very popular in this time period. And I think still to some degree continue on the equalizer franchise has obviously done quite well.

[00:37:58] Uh, this one to me. I enjoy it more than I think you do. Uh, this one though, in terms of the bare bones of what it is, this could have been completely like disposable. Mm-hmm. But I think like you have this material being elevated in a way because of Denzel Washington and some like genuinely interesting stylistic flourishes from Anton Fuqua. There's some interesting cinematography in here.

[00:38:25] Like there are some, there's some things going on that like, okay, we're trying to raise the stakes. Yes, I completely agree. I just think like for me, I want to go back to you, but like just to sort of tie up what we're saying. I think the problem I have with this film is I went into a subway thinking it was a gourmet restaurant. Sure. Yeah, yeah. You're not exactly getting, um, you know, as you said, like top five Denzel when you consider the man's like incredible collection of work. Yeah.

[00:38:53] Um, but you know, like I look at a movie like Deja Vu, which he made with Tony Scott, for example, like that's a pulpy movie really elevated by him and Tony Scott's direction. And I felt like that was kind of the case here as well, because like when I'm watching a scene where it's like, uh, Martin Sokas, uh, sitting in a chair shirtless and you're like having the camera do that rotate over his entire body to look at the tattoos. It's like, that's a shot that really is interesting. It has an interesting, like, um, dissolve into the next sequence.

[00:39:21] And I'm like, you wouldn't see that in a different movie. Like the taken movies. The first one is fun enough. I don't like the sequels, but they're kind of artless to a degree. Whereas like, I felt like this one is injecting enough visual imagination. Obviously a lead performer that's incredibly committed to the material and trying to make every scene interesting because a lot of his scenes are by himself. And it's like Denzel make this scene interesting without saying anything. And he does. Yeah.

[00:39:50] Where I think this movie runs into problem is, and I mentioned it up front. You mentioned it as well. Like the movies over long. Uh, that's okay if you can keep the momentum going. But part of the problem is they get to a point where you feel like you're getting to the climax. And I actually checked my timer last night, uh, on my, um, Blu-ray player. And I was like, okay, so it's about halfway through the movie. I had that about an hour in. Yeah. I looked at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. What happened to that scene? Well, it feels like it's like tightening up.

[00:40:19] Like you are going to get the payoff. And then that's when he goes and visits Melissa Leo and Bill Pullman. Ah. And the movie just kind of slows down and then rebuilds back up to the big Hallmark massacre. And I'm not anti Bill Pullman, as we know. I talked about that in the Patreon episode, Lost Highway. Um, and Melissa Leo can be great, but like this kind of thing kind of hurts the movie.

[00:40:46] Like it gives it more of a lull when you want to feel like the, uh, tension is kicking in. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't, I don't think have that kind of effect. It does stuff in terms of, you know, relaying exposition, but it doesn't do wonders for the pace. And I think like the third Equalizer movie, which we reviewed on the Patreon actually, um, and we will look at later down the road again, uh, it really doubled down on the McCall as Jason Voorhees, Michael Myers stuff.

[00:41:16] Like he is a slasher movie villain and that's where the fun comes from. Mm-hmm. These villains are all basically idiots who don't realize what they're up against. And you are watching this force of nature just take them down. And Denzel, I remember in the third scene, there was a moment where he even has like a Michael Myers moment where he's like killing someone and it's just like tilting his head looking at them. And it's like, the movie really doubles down on it by then.

[00:41:40] And here you can see they're at this interesting kind of in-between phase where when there's the moment with the watch, where he walks into the room, kind of the moment that kicks off what this franchise is. Mm-hmm. And he's in that back room, he looks at his, you know, watch, he's like thinking, how much time do I need? You see through his eye breaking down the minutiae of what is all around him. And then it pays off with that action scene. That felt very like post Sherlock Holmes, which did that.

[00:42:09] I can't stand that thing, by the way. Just as a TV tropes thing, the whole slow down mind palace stuff. It put me right off Sherlock. Yeah. Yeah. Like I felt like that was really like kind of taking from Guy Ritchie's material. And I think someone did it before Sherlock Holmes, but I don't remember who. And whereas I think with the sequels, you find the Equalizer series finding its own footing and doing its own thing in a more like confident way.

[00:42:38] Whereas here it feels kind of between two worlds, but I still think that stuff plays. And I gotta be honest, I like the villain, I think, more than you. And the action is grisly enough that at the time it felt like a bit of a revelation coming after the PG-13 taken wave. And I still think it's fun. I have no problem with the kills, the brutality, the gruesomeness of this film.

[00:43:01] I just think, like, I think it lacks anyone that is on the level of Denzel Washington for him to spar with. Yeah. And so the villain becomes kind of just the secondary thing he has to overcome instead of it being an interesting character I care about. I don't know anything about, okay, he's a former Spetsnaz soldier turned gun for hire. That's all I know. There's no life to him whatsoever other than that.

[00:43:27] Well, you have Denzel basically giving him his backstory about being a kid raised by a kind old man and he killed the old man. All that stuff is tied into Teddy as well. The sad thing is, I'm pretty sure, to the best of my memory, this is the most formidable villain in any of these movies. Well, I was thinking about that afterwards and I can't recall the villain from 3. I think it was just like a collection of goons, I think.

[00:43:55] Yeah, don't they come to town and terrorize the town for, like, money and stuff and eventually he takes them all out in their vineyard or something? Yeah, that's correct. And the second one, I'm not going to mention the villain right now because it's a twist, I think, who the villain is. But it was not a twist that worked for me particularly well when I saw the movie the first time. Okay, thanks for spoiling that there's going to be a twist. You're welcome. You're welcome. This guy. What do I do with him? Books, no interviews and spoils twists. But let's not dwell.

[00:44:25] There are things to discuss. But let's talk about stuff we like. Because I think we can't have an episode about the Equalizer without throwing some celebratory flowers at Denzel Washington. Like, you said it before and you said it perfectly. He's elevating this material. You don't hire Denzel Washington for nothing. He's coming in here and giving a memorable performance on what I can only assume reads very plainly on the page.

[00:44:51] Well, that's what I'm interested in talking to Richard Wenk about is the creation of that character for the movie. Because obviously they're going to bring over certain elements from the TV show that I'm sure he'll talk about as well. But I'm wondering how much freedom Denzel had to create the character versus what was written. Because there's a lot of very minute detail stuff. Was that all fleshed out in advance? Was that the writer working with Denzel? Is that Denzel and Antoine Fuqua on the set figuring things out? I want to know.

[00:45:18] Because the character has nothing they ever specified, but he has OCD. Yeah. And that reminded me a little bit of The Accountant. Ben Affleck's character also has some sort of form of... Has something. I don't remember what he actually has. He has autism. Is it autism? He's on the spectrum, yeah. I can't remember if they outright say it or not in the film. I watched it in Spanish, so I didn't get every word. But, yeah, it was interesting to see them play with that.

[00:45:46] And someone with OCD, who's also a very capable assassin. But I think the moments that really worked for me with Denzel was when he was actually being more human. And that's the bit I liked. Like, when he's looking after Claude Moretz, or when he's looking after... What's the chap's name again? Ralphie, or the other lady who works at Home Depot with him when they get, like, robbed and stuff.

[00:46:07] Like, the human moments where you actually get to see a human instead of the whole, like, cold, calculated guy that he becomes when he goes home. Right. When he's just sitting there, like, watching things happen. Or he sits in the diner and reads a book. You mentioned Home Depot, but I'm pretty sure it was called Home Mart because Home Depot did not want to have massacres set within their facilities. I know, but Home Depot can't sue me. So I can say Home Depot. It was supposed to be Home Depot. Yeah, that will...

[00:46:37] I think the other brand they have in America is Lowe's. We have Rona. I'm not sure if that's in the US. We had that in 2020. Corona. Oh. Right, right, right, right. Wow. Wow. Doesn't get jokes either. But, yeah. But, yeah, what are your thoughts on Denzel's performance? I think it's crucial. And I think when you look at some of the scenes you get here with...

[00:47:05] You mentioned his interactions with, you know, Teddy or the various other people at Home Mart. You can imagine the scene in a Taken movie. Oh, yes. It would be horrendous. Horrendous. Like, honestly, that was kind of my favorite thing in watching, especially the Taken sequels, was awkward scenes of Liam Neeson interacting with people and trying to pretend to be a human being. Like, those scenes were hilarious. Like, they were high comedy. Here, Denzel makes them work.

[00:47:34] And some of them are pretty silly. Like, the whole Ralphie, the security guard who, you know, has to buck up to become a security guard but then quits the job because, you know, corrupt cops are, like, seeking, like, protection money from his mother's restaurant. I mean, this is all very cheeseball material and the kind of stuff I'm sure that would have fueled an episode of the TV show back in the day. They're probably combining a few different TV show kind of plots within this movie.

[00:48:03] But it's doing it in a shorthand way that were it not for Denzel's investment and the way that you believe that he believes that this is important, it makes it work. And when Denzel switches into killer mode, he's really scary. Like, I think, like, he's kind of an intense dude in real life. I've always had the impression. But, like, it really comes across in the movie. Like, I look at the scene where he's torturing David Harbour in the car.

[00:48:31] And I'm like, Denzel is cold. And you're going to see that, I think, amped up in, as I recall, really the third one, too, goes big into how cold he can be in these killing scenarios. But, like, I think he's so effective as a killer. Like, Liam Neeson, the novelty was watch Liam Neeson take people down. But did you, when the movie was over, really think of Liam Neeson as, like, a stone-cold killer? Probably not.

[00:48:58] But Denzel, you walk out of this movie and you're like, oh, man, I don't want to cross Denzel. I wouldn't want to share a cap with him at this point, just in case. Like, what if I insult him somehow and he just throws a pen in my eye? Exactly. Like, he genuinely has a fearsomeness that I think is actually kind of bold on his part to pursue because often actors want to be perceived as somewhat likable. Sure.

[00:49:22] And I think his ability to switch into something that, like, when he's killing the villain at the end and they're just, like, staring at each other, it's like there's nothing in his eyes. Like, he just goes into, like, shark predator mode. And I think it's really effective. It's typical you to bring sharks into the conversation. Well, I mean, he is kind of like a shark in those sequences. Sure. No, I think he's fantastic when he switches it on and that cold side comes through. I can take away the slow down mind palace stuff.

[00:49:50] But, you know, like, when he's talking to the bent cops, it's great. Yeah. And just sort of seeing him in motion taking people down. But, like, seeing the process. So, like, when he gets attacked in the diner very slightly and overcomes the guy very quickly and then just goes out, takes the pictures, moves on. It's all very calculated, very cold. I think it's that intensity he has that Brian Mills, Liam Neeson, doesn't have. Yeah.

[00:50:20] Like, Liam Neeson's always sort of tried to play the dad. The film starts with him buying a karaoke machine for his daughter. Like, he's a pretty loving dad and a bit of a goofball. Whereas you get no impression. Well, actually, you do get a dance number from Denzel in this, I have to say. You do, yeah. You get the soul train dance number. So maybe he is a bit of a goofball, too. Maybe he's good at code switching. Who knows? But it's the intensity that sells him more. Like, I think if you were going to say, oh, who would win in a fight between these two characters?

[00:50:49] I think Denzel is taking it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think, like, his character is someone that I'm just more interested in than Brian Mills. Like, Brian Mills is a character that we like, but we like to make fun of a lot. Like, his whole father skills and all that. Like, there wasn't moments in this. When I'm watching Denzel, you know, his McCall character, like, mourn his deceased wife. And you feel like it's someone who's tugging at that, like, I need to hold on to who I am.

[00:51:15] But at the same time, like, I'm going to go back to what my wife saved me from originally. Like, you can feel the conflict within Denzel in those scenes. And I'm like, he doesn't have to do this. No. He could show up, be like, Denzel Washington is the equalizer. He could be phoning it in, winking at the camera, being like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just making, like, a lower budget action movie. Like, what do I care?

[00:51:40] But he genuinely seems like someone who is like, I am going to make this the greatest dad action movie I possibly can. Which ties into the point I was going to raise and something that this film reminded me of, which is a film we've tackled recently. Well, specifically a character we've tackled recently. And that is Tommy Lee Jones' Deputy Sam Gerard. Yeah. Right. Tommy Lee Jones' second build in The Fugitive.

[00:52:05] And he manifests a sequel based on the intensity that he brings to that character and the sort of honesty and truth he brings to that character. And I think Denzel did the same thing here. I do not think the film around him, Denzel, is necessarily up to getting sequels. I think it's Denzel's performance that really is the reason there are three, perhaps five. It's interesting you chose Tommy Lee Jones, of course. That's another TV series adaptation into a movie as well. And, like, that's the thing, too.

[00:52:35] It doesn't feel like either one of them were saying, ah, it's based on a TV show. Like, whatever. We're just kind of cashing in here. It doesn't feel like that at all. And I think the thing with this movie is it's so, like, it's just basically a bare-bones action movie to a degree. And so, like, the premise is elastic enough within the construction of this movie that it's very open to sequels. Whether Denzel was like, sign me up for five or not.

[00:53:05] It's like this material could easily fold over into sequels. Whereas, like, with The Fugitive, it was much more of a difficult kind of stretch. But also, on the flip side, both characters will always have a villain. Yeah. There will always be fugitives for a U.S. marshal to chase. There will always be bad people in the world for the Equalizer to qualize. I think they equalize, I suppose. I don't know. Yeah.

[00:53:35] I guess it's to make things fair. I guess that's where that comes from. I guess so. It's just a cool-sounding name, I suppose. Yeah, I'm the Equalizer. Okay. Yeah. There you are. Sure. Okay. Please don't hurt me. Okay. Yeah. Okay, Mr. Washington, please. What about you? A light you have? I actually like the villains in this quite a bit. And I think it's actually a tough ask because the character of Robert McCall is, like, godlike. You can't stop him.

[00:54:04] In a, I think, worse constructed movie, it would be incredibly frustrating because the fact he is evading police any sort of investigation into his activities, the fact that bad guys can't track him down, even though he's, you know, just basically a guy on the streets, it's pretty unlikely. Pretty unlikely. But I think the movie actually does a really good job in making the Teddy character, played by Martin Sokas, genuinely scary and intelligent.

[00:54:33] And there's enough scenes of him looking at, you know, like a Robert McCall deception and seeing through it to make you go, okay, these two are obviously not quite on the same level, but I buy that this is someone who is formidable against him. And I think, like, giving, you know, the Teddy, that scene with Hayley Bennett's character who he strangles, that is an incredibly chilling scene. And I think Martin Sokas commits. And he's not an actor I've always loved.

[00:55:02] He's good in certain things, you know, like in Born Supremacy, he has a very memorable action scene. He's good in Kingdom of Heaven, but he's often cast in very generic bad guy roles. And he's one of those guys who I, at a certain point, began to go, oh, he's the bad guy again? Okay, we're going generic with this one. And I probably thought that at the time when I saw this movie in theaters. I saw his name and I was like, oh, that's our lead? Okay, I guess. Lead villain? Okay. But I actually think, like, there's an intelligence.

[00:55:30] And just the way that Martin Sokas, when he walks into the scenes, is kind of like seeing through the lines. So much of that is performance. Because I don't know if on paper it's necessarily all there, but I think there's an intensity. And when I'm watching the two of them face off with that nail gun scene, in a truly badass moment with, you know, McCall coming slow-mo through the fire extinguisher raindrops, holding a nail gun in slow-mo. Incredible. Incredible.

[00:55:58] But I like the face off with these two guys. And it felt like it was a proper kind of comeuppance for a villain in a series that I think struggles for these. Because McCall is so unstoppable that often these villains who are set up, like we had Slavvy in this movie as well. Who's set up as the one who is the primary handler of the Terry character. Terry slash Alina character. I mean, that guy is just taken out with a snap of the fingers. There's no exciting payoff to that whatsoever. No.

[00:56:26] And so I think like how they deal with Teddy and how he is ultimately dispatched is effective. But also, you know, I'm saying Martin Sokas, but I also think like having David Harbour there as kind of the primary crooked cop working with the Russian mob. I mean, come on. Invaluable. There's so many scenes where it's just him reacting to things going on. And David Harbour, who's a great actor, is just finding ways to make his henchmen instantly memorable and fun.

[00:56:54] I think David Harbour does an okay job. My ire isn't necessarily with him. I think he does a good sort of henchman. Yeah. It's like, this is like his, this is like almost his Quantum of Solace days where he's showing up in these like... Bit parts and just, yeah. Bit bad guy parts. And I think Stranger Things would have started by it at this point, but he's not like someone who's going to be headlining Marvel movies yet.

[00:57:19] And so it's like fun to see him in this kind of like, I don't know, secondary villain role? Third tier? I'm not sure. Stranger Things started in 2016, so a little bit of time after this. I think my problem with Sokas' character is I think they went the wrong way with it. Because I always think if you're going to do like a mirror image or like someone as competent as...

[00:57:45] I always go back to the day of the Jackal and Michael Lonsdale's character of LaBelle, the detective that's chasing the Jackal through the whole film. He is pitched as his equal. Jackal and LaBelle are basically as intelligent as each other and eventually LaBelle is able to overcome him through sheer detective work. Okay? Yeah. That kind of what they're going for here is obviously he's a villain. I don't think they pitch him as smart enough to go up against the equalizer.

[00:58:15] Against McCall. And so I think if you're going to not give him the material to be as good as, I think you need to go the other way and make him more heinous. Now of course you do... Pretty heinous. Okay, you see him kill a sex worker. Yeah. And? But that scene is... It's really awful. I just... I'm not saying I want to necessarily see more people get killed by him. Oh, you do also have the scene of him pummeling the construction guy. Sure. Brutally.

[00:58:45] Yeah. I... Maybe that should be enough. Maybe that should have been enough for me. I just... I kind of wanted them... I kind of wanted McCall to take him down. I wanted to feel like this guy is vile. I want him destroyed. I don't think I felt that. I wanted to see him doing more acts that would make him... Not necessarily memorable, but just like a vile P.O.S. that needs to be taken down. And yes, the things he did were pretty vile. But like... I felt like there was never any blame on him.

[00:59:14] He was just a weapon for someone else who was then just killed in a couple of scenes before the end of the film. He's just a blunt instrument. He's basically Bond in a sense, but working for the wrong people. Yeah. I mean, I think like one mistake they make is having his character pursue Ralphie at the end. Or it's like, come on. This guy... Have him kill Ralphie. Like, I don't... Like, do some things. I'm like, I care about Ralphie. And then he kills Ralphie. Like that... Yeah. That is almost like...

[00:59:40] It's like when the beginning of John Wick, which has got another tie-in to sort of the McCall character, I guess. You know, they kill the dog at the start. Sure. You're unforgivable at that point. All of you must die. That's how that works for me. And that's how they're trying to pitch it in the film. I don't think he ever gets to that level. I don't know. I found him incredibly loathsome in this movie. So I was just like waiting to see him get pummeled by the end.

[01:00:05] I do think it was a mistake to have him go after Ralphie at the end because like we shouldn't be questioning whether Ralphie can get away. We should be saying Ralphie can't get away from this guy. Send the nameless goon after Ralphie. Yeah. Or have him... As I said, have him kill Ralphie. Sorry, Ralphie fans. But I think that would have given it the sort of final like this guy's unforgivable. Let's destroy him with a nail gun. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Other likes.

[01:00:30] For me, I think it is nice to see some brutal deaths tying into what we just said about the nail gun. But, you know, there's like a... I don't know. Corkscrews being used. There is other things from the bar. Doesn't one guy get eyes taken out by like a bottle or something? Gets his whole eye taken out? He does hit him with a bottle. Yeah. There's some pretty memorable ones in here. Like the rake or whatever it was. Like garrotting the guy's neck in the Home Depot section.

[01:00:59] There's the... Yeah. The barbed wire noose. That's pretty great. Yep. Yeah. I don't go into... I'm not a big gore guy. I don't go into looking for it. But I like creative kills, I suppose. Things I haven't necessarily seen before. Yeah. And there are some in here that I was genuinely surprised by. I was going to go back just for a second. You were talking about the Teddy character as like a mirror image.

[01:01:23] I think it's really hard to create like mirror image villains against characters who are invincible. And it's something that I think James Bond struggled with as well. Mm-hmm. Like did you ever feel Bond was in danger going up against Scaramanga? Probably not. No. Probably not. The closest I think they ever got to it was Alec. Did you feel like Bond was genuinely in danger from Alec Trevelyan? Bond is never in danger. Apart from nanobots apparently. That's kind of the problem, right? Right?

[01:01:52] And I would also say, I would say maybe like Silva was the most formidable against Bond. Boop. Boop. Because I think his craziness made him that much more dangerous and scary. And the fact that he could predict the future when trains were running. That too. That too. But it's really tough. And McCall is as invincible as Bond. Bond. Yeah. And I think that is somewhere that a lot of modern franchises would like to maybe get

[01:02:21] away from a little bit and to give some fallibility to their characters. But also you end up with like No Time to Die. Yes. And then like everyone just throwing the table over because they killed Bond. Yeah. Like at some point Bond had to die. I don't think No Time to Die was the right way to do it. I would say it is in retrospect. Well, okay. Like looking on the Amazon thing, yes, I know what you mean. But just like I feel like I'd rather him died to a Scaramanga or to Alec Trevelyan than to Safin.

[01:02:51] Sure. Yes. I agree. Like go out with a bang. And I don't mean the missiles. But yeah, like I know what you mean though. It is really quite difficult because you're also like talk about it from a different perspective and let's just go into vanity here. Talk about an actor, Denzel Washington. I don't know him. Seems like a very intense guy. And maybe he would like the acting challenge of acting against someone that is portrayed

[01:03:18] as equal that he will eventually overcome through, you know, all sorts of means. But a lot of the time it would mean you're losing screen time to a different actor to build up the villain. And I could see a lot of actors having problems with that because they're the lead. Yeah. Like I think, you know, when you watch a movie like American Gangster, the Ridley Scott film where it's him versus Russell Crowe, like that works.

[01:03:42] But they obviously with this franchise aren't looking to cast someone on a similar plateau or close to as Denzel Washington for your villain. Yeah. That's just not what this film is. Like it is a Denzel Washington film and then the cast. Yeah. Whereas, you know, back to Day of the Jackal, back to my original point, it's Michael Lonsdale and Edward Fox. Like both aren't particularly household names, but they're basically built next to each other on the poster. They didn't cast someone who was a massive, massive name.

[01:04:12] They casted two actors. Yes. Both underrated spy icons because they've both been in a lot of spy movies. Yeah, for sure. Never So Never Again gets a shout out. Yeah. But yeah, I think it is a very tough thing to do. And I can't think of a recent film where it's been done well outside of Bond either. I don't think of like any superhero films have done it because they'll often do mirrors. I guess like- Well, a lot of them. The Winter Soldier.

[01:04:38] Usually origin movies do that where it's like, you know, Yellow Jacket and Ant-Man. Captain America, Red Skull. Black Panther. That's probably the best one. Black Panther and Killmonger. And that was actually pretty well done. Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah. So much so that they're calling for Michael B. Jordan to come back. Yes, we all are. Wow. Indeed. I'd be keen to hear from you folks if you can think of a better mirror image film that we've missed out there. Are we missing something? Or do you not think this works as a mirror image?

[01:05:06] But I think that's what they were going for with the Soka's character. I do too. Yeah. Yeah. But deaths. Gory deaths. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed seeing some- We had a lot of 12A films on the show recently. A lot of kid-friendly. Well, not kid-friendly, but aimed at teens. This feels very much like an adult contemporary film. And so it's nice to see. It is. And I mean, the scene where the guy backs into the power drill, all I could think about was Hans Moeman saying, My brains.

[01:05:36] I didn't think I'd get a Hans Moeman shout out on this episode, but here we are. Yeah. And I think setting it- When I knew the final sequence was going to happen in the Home Depot, I was like, oh, here we go. Like, ugh. How contrived. How silly. Is someone going to step on a rake at some point? But somehow they actually made it entertaining. I was like, oh, okay. You actually used the environment you set it in and made it entertaining. Stepping on a rake, bringing it all back to Sideshow Bob.

[01:06:05] We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Agents, we don't expect you to talk. We expect you to buy a subscription to our Patreon. Eee. That's right. Over on the SpyHards Patreon, we're covering all your favorite spy TV shows, as well as popular films from the most iconic secret agent actors of all time. Cam, why don't you share some intel on our latest assignment?

[01:06:31] Scott, in anticipation of Andor's second and final season, we are journeying back to a galaxy far, far away to take a look at season one of Tony Gilroy's prequel series to Rogue One, A Star Wars Story. Is the Force truly with this one? Punch it, Chewie. We're going to find out. So, tar-tune your dial to patreon.com slash spyhards and spice up your podcast feed. But before Nick-Nack runs out of Tabasco, resume the spy jinx.

[01:07:04] Alright, we need to get the dislikes in before McCall turns up and equalizes us. Cam, a dislike from you. I mean, for me, it is just that, like, kind of somewhat aimless second half. It's the taking the foot off the gas. And I guess, like, in kind of a larger picture, there's stuff I appreciate there. Like, I like the takedown of the cash warehouse, like, in the meatpacking plant. Oh, that was fun. That sequence is actually really effective.

[01:07:33] But, I mean, in a way, it really is the pivot point of the visit to Melissa Leo and Bill Pullman. Where, I mean, is there anything in that sequence that's interesting to you? In the meatpacking scene? No, no, in the Bill Pullman-Melissa Leo visit. No. Other than, like, giving you a slight hint of what he used to do. Yeah. But I could do without any of that. I think it's implied. Like, you don't really get a Brian Mills scene where he goes back to the agency he used to work for and goes,

[01:08:02] Oh, can you give me some intel? That's kind of what his friends are for. Does this... Okay, do these friends feel better or worse utilized than the friends in the Taken series? Well, there's no barbecue scene in this film. There's not. Or golf. Or golf. So, no, I think this is a downgrade. It really does feel like that way. Like, there's nothing particularly interesting. And Melissa Leo had worked with Fuqua on Olympus Has Fallen as well. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:25] Where she was a member of the president's staff who, I think it's, like, dragged out of a room by her hair seeing the Star-Spangled Banner or something like that. Like, it's something insane. It's a really crazy moment, I recall, from that film. And I can understand why they'd bring her back because I think she can be an actress who's really... I mean, she's a great actress, but she can also be really fun on screen. I just don't think they found anything interesting for her or Bill Pullman to do.

[01:08:49] So, I do wonder, and this is a Richard Wank question, because in a rare occasion we're recording the interview after we've recorded the actual review itself, is, like, was the CIA stuff left from a previous draft? Sure. Yeah. Because it doesn't tie in as well as everything else. It does feel like it's a detour for 15 minutes. Well, it's an explanation as to why McCullough's as good as he is, but that's the kind of thing that could have been, you know, one line of dialogue.

[01:09:19] You have a character like Troutman in Rambo shows up and is like, you don't know what you're dealing with. This guy's done this, this, this, and this. Boom. We're off to the races. We don't need to kind of, like, stop the movie. Or you have Sokus' character find it out when they're finding out stuff about him. Yeah. Like, he brings in a dossier, he's got, like, a black line on it, and he's like, oh, this guy means business. He's ex-Black Ops, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. XCIA, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, oh, okay.

[01:09:46] That explains where all these skills are coming from, the particular set of skills he is brandishing in this film. But they don't do that. No, and that would have actually, I think, made the Teddy character even more formidable, is he had the ability to scout this information out himself. Yeah. Like, maybe his people got it for him or whatever. Sure. I mean, it's an oligarch-run operation. Like, they would have connections all over the place.

[01:10:12] That's a more simplistic way of doing it, and I think it lends itself to, I think, sorting out the issue we have about pace. Mm-hmm. Like you said before, I don't mind seeing Bill Pullman, but, like, we are just, travels off to just somewhere outside of Boston that's very nice looking, that doesn't look like Boston. And then spends 15 minutes doing arts and crafts and eating cake or whatever it was they were eating, some weird food. And then coming back again, it's like, eh, okay. What did this do for me?

[01:10:41] Apart from a paycheck for two actors. True. I also think it's tough to do the climbing the criminal ladder approach to villains in action movies. We saw it in the Taken series as well, where it's like, you see the primary villains set up who are the ones that kidnap Maggie Grace's character. Liam Neeson dispatches them pretty quickly. Yeah. And then you're basically just climbing this ladder of kind of random people. I think Teddy is a very good attempt to try to conquer that problem and having David Harper there as well.

[01:11:10] But you don't see them as tied to the kind of inciting incidents. It's like they are secondary. And that's something that I'm not sure any movie has fully cracked. Like, by the time I get to him taking down the oligarch at the end of the movie, I don't know who that guy is. He's a face. It means nothing. Yeah, exactly. I think he has a name because you see it on the phone a few times. Is it like Pushkin? It's Pushkin, yeah, which is a name I think used in... Is that Living Daylights? I think so, yeah. It was ringing a bell for me.

[01:11:40] Yeah, it was like Mishkin in Goldeneye and Pushkin in Living Daylights, I think. Sure. There must be a lot of Kins in Russia. I guess so. But yeah, it's like, imagine you were watching like, you know, Goldfinger and he killed Goldfinger at the halfway point. But then there was a larger villain who was controlling it all. And... Platinum Finger. Yeah. It's like you don't have the kind of the time to build that character up. I really do think though, like, Teddy is the best...

[01:12:09] One of the best attempts I've seen at that sort of thing. In kind of threading the needle. But like, it's a kind of format for villains that I think is really difficult. Well, it just feels like a video game sometimes. Like, it's mini-boss, mini-boss, mini-boss, final boss. Yeah. And that... Where's the entertainment? I think you're better off spending your time building, crafting one all-time villain. I've already mentioned the sort of lack of tension I found throughout the film. The fact of making him invulnerable.

[01:12:37] It is just a thing that these, like, dad-on-a-mission films seem to do. These dad-action films seem to really enjoy. It's that whole, like... They're just an unstoppable force of goodness. Which is... It is what it is. So I'll leave that there. I do feel like it's a shame Chloe Moretz just disappears from the film. That is an interesting choice. I feel like she's the humanity of the film a little bit. And, you know, like... I didn't even think of the taxi driver thing until you mentioned it. But there's a reason why that character's in the film for most of the film. Yeah.

[01:13:07] And, I mean, I get it. Like, in this world, this character doesn't survive. Like, if she is not hidden away after being in the hospital, Teddy's getting her. Like, she doesn't have the skills to evade. Unless you had, like, Robert playing a more active role in hiding her, maybe then you could do something. But... That's where I thought they were going. Like, when McCall's at their hideout and he's looking through the documents and he sees the tanker. There's, like, a tanker at the docks.

[01:13:35] I thought that was leading to her being, like, captured there. Maybe they were going to export her out the country so they could do what they want with her in Russia somewhere. Right. That's what I thought. And in the next scene, he's blown up the boat. I was like, oh, probably not then. Well, I guess the question is, where did she go? Because she's in the hospital. Then where? I assume she was just still in the hospital the whole time. That's the thing. It doesn't really make sense because Teddy is someone who I think, who's smart enough, would go... Clearly, he was... He started it on this entire mission because of her. Get her.

[01:14:05] Like, we need her or... Yeah, get her out. Put us somewhere safe. Or something worse. Like, he's like, you know, just kill her off. Like, I think, like, Teddy would target her and pay more attention to what could be a possible connection between the two that he could exploit. Yeah. And the fact that her character just completely vanished, which... Robert McCall can't even vanish. They're finding this guy somehow.

[01:14:30] Whereas this, like, young woman who has no resources, and as we, you know, indicate in the movie, like, no connections other than the Hayley Bennett character who's dead. Mm-hmm. How is she safe at all? Not a clue. And they do kind of give you a little bit of information at the end of the film when Chloe Moretz turns up and says, oh, someone, someone, left $10,000 for me and a ticket out of town. Obviously, that was Denzel's character. Yeah.

[01:14:56] But that must have happened after they busted the drug farm because that's where the cash came from. Or was that the cash in the envelope he tried to buy her with? That's right, because she said it was just under $10,000 and he offered him $9,800. Do you want to know a fact as to why it was $9,800? Yes, I do. Because if you go any higher than that from a cash withdrawal from a bank in the United States of America, it logs something on some sort of digital system and flags it. Oh, okay.

[01:15:26] I don't know why it's specifically that number. Maybe it's changed since this film was made, but that was definitely the reasoning at the time. Oh, okay. Well, I wouldn't have known that. That's fascinating. A little bit of Googling will get you plenty of places. Any other dislikes you want to bring up? I mean, other than not hearing her song, that one did jump out to me. I don't think so. I genuinely think we are going to look at a few of these dead action franchises. Obviously, Taken.

[01:15:55] We're looking at these movies. And not a franchise, but we're going to see the Kevin Costner one, Three Days to Kill as well. There's going to be a few of these movies of the older guy who has spy training that has to go save the day. I genuinely think you can say this movie is not high art, but I think it's one of the better ones. I think it's aiming for something more than some of the other ones. Yes. I think that's down to the script. I think that's down to Antoine Fuqua as well.

[01:16:23] I think Fuqua does a great job with this one, and it doesn't feel like it tips into the skeezy the way that Taken does. No, although I think the skeezy helped with Taken. I think it gave you a sense of the real dread that the Maggie Grace character was facing in that underworld by being exposed to it as an audience. I think that did kind of work. I think this is more, you just said it's not high art. I think it is attempting to be something slightly more, but by having Denzel in its lead, it should be doing that.

[01:16:52] I think this film was smart to try and make something a bit more iconic. And there are some quite iconic scenes in this film, in Denzel's sort of filmography. That gun grab where he swaps the hands. Yeah. I've seen that played in so many things. The watch. I mean, we can say what we will about the cheesiness of the watch moment, but that moment definitely, I think it was used in the trailer. And it also became a big selling point of the overall vision of what this franchise is.

[01:17:21] Wait, was it a Sony watch by any chance? Oh, probably. Oh, boy. And also, you mentioned him coming out of the rain at the end when he's got the nail gun. That shot of him sort of looking down in the, well, it's not the rain, it's the water suppression system in Home Depot. But that, again, is an iconic shot. I think it's on the poster or some of the posters. Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, it was funny. I was reading a review from Matt Singer, who logged this movie on Letterboxd. And I think he gave it like three and a half.

[01:17:49] But basically said, this is a movie you'll be kind of embarrassed to tell your friends you're spending the night watching. But no matter where you are, you'll turn this movie on on TV. And then two and a half hours will disappear and you'll have watched the entire movie and won't want to admit it. It's the film you don't want anyone walking in on you watching, basically. Well, it's just like a movie that it's not like, well, I was busy watching Casablanca. And people go, oh, of course, a classic. It's a movie that if it's on, you'll be like, oh, The Equalizer.

[01:18:19] You know what? I'm just going to watch The Equalizer. Like, it feels like a movie that has that kind of pull. It's kind of like a movie that would have played very well on TV. Although it wouldn't really play that well because you'd take out all the good parts. Yeah, you'd lie and watch. You'd like you watch the Three Colors trilogy or something like that. Yeah. You didn't watch the Equalizer trilogy. Three Colors, yeah, I'll do that or something. I could see that being the case. It doesn't even have like the class of like the Bond franchise or something like that, where you understand kind of the fandom around it.

[01:18:48] But like the Equalizer series are pretty somewhat disposable action movies. But they're movies that are, for whatever odd reason, very rewatchable. I think that very odd reason is Denzel Washington. Well, that's true. Yeah. Well, okay. Final notes. I've got a couple of observations I want to make. Cam, why don't you go first?

[01:19:07] I thought the scene where McCall was telling Teddy his backstory and talking about him as a kid and the older man and all that reminded me so much of the movie Batman, where Michael Keaton is talking to Jack Nicholson's Joker and saying like, there was this guy. He went too far. And then he does the whole build up to the, you want to get nuts? But I'm like, it felt so similar that I think I might ask the writer if he was inspired by Batman. I think you should.

[01:19:37] I think you should. Yeah. I did get sort of a Batman vibe from this, but that was more just like Denzel appearing from the shadows as a form of justice. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think that's kind of built into it too. This film wants to talk a lot about books. It does. Yes. Yeah. Some of the books include Old Man and the Sea, Invisible Man, and it makes a reference to Don Quixote as well. Yes, it does. Yeah. The knights when they're not knights anymore.

[01:20:06] If I remember my Don Quixote. And we could take a joke about that and make a laugh about it if we want, but I think it's nice to include a bit of literature in your film. And I think reading is actually pretty cool. So I wanted to ask you, what's the most influential book you've ever read? Oh my God.

[01:20:25] Well, I mean, as a kid, the book that kind of pivoted me into reading higher literature, I suppose, would have been actually by an author who's quoted at the very start of the movie. And that is Mark Twain and The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. Which, you know, I was a kid who grew up reading Hardy Boys novels and, you know, choose your own adventures and that kind of stuff, which are all great. They have their place. But I remember reading Tom Sawyer and falling absolutely in love with it.

[01:20:53] And that was a book that kind of started me on a path of reading books that were a little more prestigious. And I guess maybe even, who knows, you know, I wound up as an English major. Maybe that's the reason. I don't know. So that's quite nice, to be fair, that it took you there. I have wondered about this sort of 100 books to read before you die. I wonder how many of those I've actually read. Have you read the three in this movie? I've read The Invisible Man, I think, but not Invisible Man, which is a very different book.

[01:21:22] Yeah, the Ellison book, Invisible Man. I read it in university. Right. And I haven't read Old Man in the Sea, but I did watch the movie with Gregory Peck. Isn't that just Moby Dick? No. No, it's different. It's more contemplative, I think. Okay. Is that the sort of clip I see of Gregory Peck in a little rowboat getting splashed with water all the time? Is that where that's from? Probably. Probably. Did he have... Was he made... Wait, sorry, it's not Gregory Peck. I'm wrong. It's Spencer Tracy. I made a mistake. So I'm thinking of Gregory Peck and Moby Dick then.

[01:21:52] Yes, that's right. That's the confusion. So I said they're not that similar, but then I confused the two. Yes. Gregory Peck is in the Moby Dick movie, which I've seen as well. And then Spencer Tracy is in Old Man in the Sea. There you go. I've not read any of those then. No. I think I read Don Quixote in school at some point, which is, again, a weird one because it's a bit of a classic American literature, not really British literature. Right. And I have read King Arthur's stories going back to the start of this podcast.

[01:22:21] And I read them in Middle English, as intended. So lots of ye oldies and stuff like that. That's right. That's right. I suppose to answer my own question, which you didn't ask me to answer, but I'll answer it anyway. Mine's annoying because I feel like I've run out of time for books recently. I've been listening to audiobooks when I've been out walking and stuff. And I do count reading, sorry, listening to audiobooks as having read the book personally. Sure.

[01:22:50] So people are very like, you know, fandom. Oh, you have to have read it. You have to own it or whatever. Like, no. I think if you've spent the same amount of time it takes to read it listening to someone telling the story, I think it still counts. But some of the classics, I think the two that stick out to me is ones that I've read several times and have pushed me to read more. And that is the first one is George Orwell's 1984.

[01:23:16] I read that in about halfway through high school and it wasn't in the curriculum or anything like that. It influenced so much of the sort of films and TV I was watching and consuming at that point. I was like, maybe I should go back to the source material. Right. And it's still one I do go back to from time to time. But the other one, and again, it's sort of, it has influenced a lot of the science fiction I watched as a kid.

[01:23:43] And I read this in my early teens was Dune, Frank Herbert's Dune. Yeah, yeah. Like, there's so much Star Wars takes from it, Star Trek's taken stuff from it. Like every sci-fi you can point things out that have taken stuff from Frank Herbert's Dune. And, you know, I remember watching the David Lynch film late teens, early 20s and be like, this is not, this is not my Dune. And so it was lovely to see the Denis Villeneuve films. I think it did a fair amount of justice to the book.

[01:24:11] Yeah, it's a little bit like John Carter, where you've read that one by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Like, you read John Carter and you're like, oh, that's where Star Wars came from and all this other sci-fi stuff. And why, when they made the John Carter movie, you sat there the whole time going, wait, I saw this in that movie and that movie. And why does this feel like the prequels and all that kind of thing? Yeah. I wonder if, I wonder if old Snyder read that book before he made his Netflix films. Oh, good Lord. I don't think he read any books. I think he maybe read a pamphlet or something.

[01:24:40] He, he read the novelization of A New Hope. Gold! A New Hope. This is it. He read the novelization of that animated Clone Wars movie. Oh boy. Oh no. Or maybe the Ewoks battle for Endor. The holiday special novelization. Yeah. I wonder if that exists, actually. I don't think so. I hope not. Oh, Grandpa Wookiee watches porn. Yeah. The chapter. Hey. Ooh.

[01:25:08] A note from me was the book. I'm just going to see. Oh, did you notice the somewhat Fabergé egg? No. Uh, it's not really a Fabergé egg, but there is an egg that opens up to a ballerina dancing in the film. That plays during the death of Hayley Bennett's character. Yeah. And I was just like, it was, it made me laugh. You don't see like toy, like bejeweled eggs very often in spy movies.

[01:25:36] And so I was instantly pulled to the superior Roger Moore film Octopussy. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Hayley Bennett, by the way, very good in that smaller part. That scene. She's great. She's great. She's an actress who I think would be probably more prominent if she didn't look so much like Jennifer Lawrence. Wait. I need to just look at the picture of her to get her back in my head for a second. She does look like Jennifer Lawrence. It's crazy. That's weird. I've seen trailers where I thought I was looking at Jennifer Lawrence. I wonder if I've ever like seen her in a film and thought that was a Jennifer Lawrence film accidentally.

[01:26:06] Hardcore Henry? Borderlands? Yep. Definitely a Jennifer Lawrence film. Yeah. Right. Oh, the other thing I have was McCall. About McCall. Now he does hold a gun in this film. He also uses one to look down the sights, but he never shoots anyone. Yeah. Well, nail gun, but yeah. Yeah, but like with a pistol. Or a machine gun. Never shoots anyone. Should he join the Charlie's Angels?

[01:26:35] Although I think he did use a gun maybe in the third movie. I'm having vague memories of the start of that film. I think he does, but... There's a lot of blood at the start of that film, I seem to recall. Yeah. I would like to see very serious Denzel opposite the Angels. Well, he would be like the creepy thin man almost of the film. Like just in the darkness watching them. But he would win. Oh, I think he would... Well, I don't really want to watch the film of Denzel Washington beating up Lucy Liu, Charlie's Theron and... Charlie's Theron.

[01:27:05] Cameron Diaz and Drew Barrymore, I should say. But hey, put Charlie's Theron in there too. Why not? I don't want to see him beat all four of those women up. Thanks. It's a very different movie. It is. One that wouldn't do as well. Charlie's Angels 3 is not shaping up to be a good film so far. Probably why it hasn't happened yet. All right. Knock list time. The first of three, maybe five, Equalizer films. You never know. Is the Equalizer one making the list of the greatest spy films, the must-see spy films of all time?

[01:27:34] Cam, you're up first. No, this is not a knock list movie for me. This is a fun B-action movie that I think is worth checking out. I put it on a similar tier as the first Taken, which also didn't make the knock list. And yeah, I think that about sums it up. Yeah, I think I'm inclined to agree with the no on that one. I don't... The problem is I haven't seen the second one. I have a suspicion how I feel on the third, but we won't know what happens with the fourth and fifth.

[01:28:02] And so a part of me is like, is this the best one? Like, what's the benchmark? But I can't proceed with that in mind. Yeah. And if you're asking me, is this a must-see spy movie? No. But there is some entertainment to be had from watching this film if you haven't seen the Equalizer and made it this far into the episode. I'd say you still check it out. Yeah, I would too. Yeah. There you go. Two no's. Equalizer is not making the knock list.

[01:28:31] There's still hope for the Queen Latifah version, though. Is there? Is there hope? I don't know. For all I know, this show's a ton of fun, and maybe we'll find out on the Patreon. It just seems like such an energy change from what I know of Queen Latifah's work. Like, I just know her from comedy. Yeah. So, like, this is a very straight down the road. Like, you know, this is not a comedy film at any point. I couldn't see Queen Latifah in this role. No, but maybe that'll make it more interesting. You know what? Arms wide open, as Creed would say.

[01:29:01] That's right. But the dossier on the film is complete and filed as classified. That's the first of the trilogy, or the CEP trilogy. What's the five? Quadrilogy? No. Quintology? That's... Quintology? Yeah. Whatever it is, five. Whatever it is, folks. It's the first of five or three. We'll find out. But it hasn't made the knock list. So the mission continues, obviously, later this week. We'll be back with our interview with Mr. Richard Wenk, talking about this film and the sequels, as well as we'll, I'm sure, brush onto the mechanic as well.

[01:29:31] Yeah. Yeah. Of course. We'll have to. Yeah. Because we covered that movie a while back, and that's just an interesting adaptation unto itself. Join us later this week for the Richard Wenk interview. I'm sure it will be a blast. Lots to talk about and lots to dissect. And I think I might try and fit the second one in before I do the interview. I know it's weird to watch it ahead of a review, but I kind of want to ask him questions about all three films. Yeah. I think it would be weird not to do that. No, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. So I might try and fit that in,

[01:30:00] but obviously we won't be reviewing two or three for quite some time. But Cab, the mission must continue next week. What's the next spy film in our crosshairs? Scott, over here on SpyHards, we love whiplash programming, where we go from one tone to a completely insane, drastically different tone. So we are going to jump from the equalizer to 1948's Southern Yankee, a comedy Civil War spy film starring Red Skelton.

[01:30:28] I'm sure there will be no comparisons to be made between these two films. Now, as is tradition here on SpyHards, we like to keep you guessing as all spies do love to do. Good spies anyway. I think it's quite the juxtaposition going from the equalizer to a Civil War spy film, but that's just the way we like to do things. So your mission, folks, should you choose to accept it,

[01:30:54] is to join us back in a time of civil war and a time of unrest as we take a look at 1948's Red Skelton comedy, I use that in air quotes, Southern Yankee. And I mentioned at the start there was an ad in the middle, so let's just finish off that delicious, delicious sandwich. Why don't you join us over on the Patreon? Whilst recording this episode, someone joined the Patreon. So I'm going to shout out their name for being such a star. Shelby Spires, welcome aboard.

[01:31:23] We're glad to have you over at the Patreon. So why don't you be a little bit more Shelby today? Why don't you join us over on the Patreon? Make our day brighter and make your life of your ears brighter, frankly. Like, indulge in some rich, luxurious audio entertainment courtesy of your favourite spy boys. Shell yes. Sign up, people. Follow us over on social media. We'll be continuing the equalizer discussion all throughout the week.

[01:31:51] I will be fighting off all the equalizer fans, apparently because I'm the contrarian voice amongst the pigeons. I didn't mean to call all the equalizer fans pigeons there, but hey, I've done it now and Cam's not going to edit it out, so I'm just going to look bad. That's right. But join us on social media at SpyHards, wherever you might get your social medias, S-P-Y-H-A-R-D-S. I think we have all of the handles locked down wherever you might do it. So find us there. Continue to equalize the discussion.

[01:32:21] But until next week, spy fans, you'll find Cam and I rubbing each other's thighs with boiling honey. I'm the official latest설 explaining.