197. Captain America: The First Avenger (2011)

[00:00:35] Hello and welcome to SpyHards Podcast, where your hosts go deep undercover into the world of spy movies to decipher which films make the knock list. But remember this information is strictly for your ears only. I'm Agent Scott. And I'm Cam the Provocateur, stopping hearts in a red dress. It suits you. It suits you. Right? The whole room is just, jaws are on the floor. You've never looked better. I know. Truth be told. It's a new year and a new Cam. Yeah.

[00:01:04] It might have awakened something in you you didn't know was there. Well, maybe you did know it was there. You just didn't tell us. I'm releasing my inner Hayley Atwell. You sure are. I mean, I wish... I mean, you kind of ruined Hayley Atwell for me now, to be honest. It was like a screaming specter coming out of me, like, released, being exercised. People that write it and say, hey, can you guys do video? No, this is the reason. You don't want to see this. No, no. It would just ruin everything for you.

[00:01:34] No. I always worry about putting pictures of us online on, like, Instagram and stuff. Because they're like, oh, I don't want to dispel the illusion that I'm some well-dressed Brit wearing a tuxedo all day long. And Cam is like, I don't know, whatever you think Cam is. Maybe we could just have video, but we're both pixelated. Right. And so everything around us is clear, you know, 4K video, but we are just like these pixelated forms. And we have to change the voices, too, the way they used to at old... I was about to ask about the voice, yeah. In old news broadcasts.

[00:02:04] Everyone's like, oh, I made it scared. Yes, exactly. Yeah, something like that. Oh, what? Are we putting on voices? No, no. We would use the, like, really phony sounding... The muffle. Yeah, muffling thing. Okay. Well, I mean, it can't be any worse than our first few episodes on those terrible USB microphones we used to have. USB. I think they were tape recorders. Yeah, it hadn't even got to USB. We were just US at that point. Yeah. It might be probably U.

[00:02:33] It was tin cans on strings and it was a very long piece of string. Hello? Welcome to Spyheart. I don't know why I put that accent on. I'm sorry, everyone. But we have... Actually, it ties well into this week's film. Because they're going to ye olde New York. That's where we're heading. Yeah, and tin cans on strings are how they communicated back in the war. I'm not sure that's true. I think they had more... That's fake news, Cam. You can't do that. It's all real.

[00:03:05] Cam's a conspiracy theorist. Tick. That's right. It was all an inside job. How the Allies communicated from country to country is a real question mark, considering the amount of string required to do such a thing. But they pulled it off. Especially given the lack of resources during wartime. You'd think they wouldn't have that much string to go around. I mean, everyone donated string. It was a lot of people going through their houses, donating shoestrings. All that sort of thing. War bonds and string. That's right.

[00:03:34] That's what we need from you today. Under-reported story. The, like, patriotism behind those string drives. String drives. We want you to give us your string. That's right. Well, take us back, Cam, to a time long ago that neither of us were there to visit, thankfully. What are we talking about this week? We are talking about 2011's Captain America, The First Avenger.

[00:04:01] And you may ask yourself, why are we talking about this film? That was the question I had, actually. And so the listener would be reading my mind. Hmm. And it was me who pushed for this. Because, and I'll justify it up front before we even get into the review. We were planning for a very long time to talk about Captain America, The Winter Soldier, which is 100% a spy film. There can be no arguments about this.

[00:04:27] And it would seem the new Captain America movie, Brave New World, also has spy elements as well. Yeah. Which, prophetically, or perhaps it was planned, we're dropping this episode the same week that film comes out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, hoping for some SEO optimization, if you know. I hate myself. Please listen. And so I thought, well, if we're going to do the second one and the fourth one,

[00:04:58] why don't we just, like, you know, wet our feet and learn a little bit about Captain America and sort of the world that he inhabits? Because not everyone listening has seen this film. I would think most of them have. Most? No, I'm sure. But not all. And there are elements in this film, especially from going back and rewatching it today, that I think there are spy things we can pull from this. Definitely. There are German spies that pop up in the film.

[00:05:23] Hydra seems to have espionage elements to their organization, among many things, kind of like Spectre. Yep. And then also Hayley Atwell's character, who we mentioned earlier, Peggy Carter, is with MI6. Yeah. So is it perhaps on the periphery? Yeah. I mean, we tackled... No. No, it's not. It's on the periphery of the periphery. We tackled The Rocketeer a little ways back, which was directed by Joe Johnston, who also directed this film. We'll get to that.

[00:05:50] And so that movie also had spy elements as well. Timothy Dalton played a German spy in that, a Nazi spy. And this movie also has a lot of allusions to Raiders of the Lost Ark in the Indiana Jones series, which also have loose spy connections as well. And listen, guys, don't you just want to have fun sometimes?

[00:06:17] And tackle some big movies that everyone knows? Yeah, we get the odd note, like, oh, I've never seen Berlin Correspondent. Yeah, nor had we. But sometimes it's just fun to talk about the influences on bigger films. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And this one falls at a crucial moment in the evolution of Marvel Studios. This was their fourth film. I think it was their fourth? Fifth, I think. Because it was their last one with Paramount.

[00:06:47] Yeah, that's right. It was their fifth film. And it's, you know, the last film before The Avengers comes out. And that really just knocks the doors open. And Marvel takes over the film world for, you know, quite a while. And some may argue they're still there. Time will tell. Yeah, we're kind of at a curious point now. For all we know, the new Captain America movie is going to, like, completely bomb at the box office. We don't know anything, folks. It will be a brave new world. Yeah.

[00:07:17] It's been a little bit up and down lately because, you know, the Marvels did not perform well. Eternals didn't do well. But then things like, you know, Deadpool and Wolverine was a huge hit. Guardians 3 was a big hit. So we don't know what the future holds for Marvel at this point. But we're not here to prognosticate. We're here to analyze. That's right. And to analyze, we need to read a synopsis. Because if we don't know what we're talking about, you need to know. But we'll analyze that synopsis. We certainly will.

[00:07:46] And here it goes. Captain America, the first Avenger. When Patriots Become Heroes. Really leaning on that sort of USA. USA. USA. Which I always thought was going to be a tough sell when it came to this movie before it came out. Well, there's a lot of things about this that I think are a tough sell that they somehow navigate the waters of. Yeah, I agree. During World War II, Steve Rogers is a sickly man, much like Cam and I.

[00:08:16] From Brooklyn. Yeah, I mean, Steve Rogers at the beginning of this film is a physical manifestation of what Cam and I look like. That's why we don't do video. We also look like we are CG creations. Yeah, our faces just sort of shift around from time to time, depending on the angle. A sickly man from Brooklyn who's transformed into super soldier captain America to aid in the war effort. Rogers must stop the Red Skull, Adolf Hitler's ruthless head of weaponry,

[00:08:43] and the leader of an organization that intends to use a mysterious device of untold power for world domination. Yeah, I mean... That's the plot. It's describing the plot of so many of these pulp superhero movies that also came out in the 90s, like The Phantom and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen The Phantom, actually. Worth a watch? My memory of it is that it's fun.

[00:09:10] Now, I saw it in 1997, probably. And life was more fun back then for Cam. It was. It was a great time. But Catherine Cedar Jones plays, I believe, kind of the Barbara Carrera-like role in the film. Oh, now you're talking my language there. Barbara Carrera. Okay, keep going. Yeah. Wait, Barbara Carrera in Condor Man or Barbara Carrera in Never Say Never Again? Never Say Never Again.

[00:09:37] And it was before Catherine Zeta Jones broke through, because she did that the next year in... Entrapment? No, in Zorro. And so, like, it would be curious to go back to, because when I saw it the first time, it didn't really... Like, I didn't realize this was a star. Is Billy Zane the Phantom? He is, yeah. And Treat Williams is the villain. Ah. I think we have a history with Treat Williams. I don't think we do, but perhaps you do, Scott. But, well, that's a treat for another day.

[00:10:07] Moving on swiftly. Initial experiences. I'm fairly certain you saw this in theaters, Cam. You're damn right I did. I was actually... Dressed as the Red Skull. Oh, sorry. No, go on. No, not dressed as the Red Skull. Dressed as Armin Zola, actually. But, yeah. So, I was actually really excited about this movie. And I think of the Marvel movies post-Iron Man that I was focused on, this was the most. And I don't really know why. I was not a reader of Captain America comics.

[00:10:38] But I did have fond memories. It was a birthday party, probably in like 1990 or 1991, where we rented... The film didn't come out then, by the way. No. We rented the 1990 Captain America film directed by notorious schlockmeister Albert Pion and starring Matt Salinger. Now, I'm sure this movie is terrible. I was going to watch some scenes in advance of this review. But I was like, no. I don't want to touch those memories.

[00:11:07] Don't want to taint it. Leave the memories alone, I say. Because it was a time where you didn't have any superhero movies of the Marvel variety to watch on the big screen or watch at home. You know? It's like you had Batman and Superman, which those movies are out. You're just offending all the Howard the Duck fans out there. Right. Yeah. You had Howard the Duck. And then you had like the Dolph Lundgren Punisher film, which I like. That's fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty fun.

[00:11:37] But, you know, they put out this Captain America movie straight to video. And so I rented it for my birthday. I think everyone enjoyed it, which, again, speaks to the mentality of like 10-year-olds or 11-year-olds or whatever we were. So fans of that film have the mental age of a 10-year-old. Noted. Keep going. But I actually really enjoyed it. And I remember being excited to see the red skull on the big screen. Or not the big screen, but the small screen. Nonetheless. Like, just seeing that character. It looked bigger when you were 10 years old. That's right. It was a giant TV. Oh, Mom. Thanks. It's so big.

[00:12:06] I was like the monkey at the start of 2001 A Space Odyssey. Just like leaping up and down in front of the TV showing Captain America. Whacking it with a bone. Trying to change the channel. That's right. But I was so excited to see Captain America, but also Red Skull. And I remember they cheaped out. And he only had the red skull face for the first scene. And then after that, he had plastic surgery to look like a dude. And you're like, oh, that's not as exciting. And he was played by, I believe, an Italian actor too.

[00:12:37] Which was weird. Scott Pollan was the actor. But I think he had an Italian accent in the movie. Wait. Why is that weird? What have you got against Italians? Well, the red skull is German. His name's Johann Schmid. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. That's a good criticism. Yeah. But I had, there's like a memory that will always stick with me was the red skull's death in that movie. Is he's like in a castle and he's outside on like the balcony.

[00:13:05] Captain America storms in, hurls his shield, knocks Red Skull off the edge of the balcony. And you get to watch a dummy plummet off the balcony of a cliff and bounce down the rocks like all the way down. Did they at least paint the dummy in the red face? So at least that was like. Well, at that point, he doesn't have a red skull face. He just has like a human face. But I remember the whole party exploding and watching this dummy go off the cliff.

[00:13:32] And we were around it like probably 10 times. And each time we were just like exploding in laughter. We loved it. So that's my memory of that movie. So when they announced a new one, I was actually like excited to see these characters done properly. Because even though I wasn't a comic book reader of Captain America, I really thought the red skull skull was a cool visual. I want to see that on the big screen. And it was kind of that early Marvel era where they were making movies about characters I didn't really care about.

[00:14:01] Because the characters I cared the most about were Silver Surfer and Spider-Man. Those were not part of the Marvel package. So it was like, okay, they're doing Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Captain America. Captain America was the one I was the most excited about. Because it had that kind of Indiana Jones promise of that two-fisted hero going up against Nazi villains. What could this movie be? And so I was really tracking the progress of it throughout. And I remember going to see it with my friend Mark.

[00:14:29] And I had seen all the other Marvel movies leading up to it. And walking out and being like, that was fun. And kind of not having that like, oh. Like I really was not swept up in it the way I expected to be. And I actually that summer preferred Thor. Wow. Yeah. Let's unpack that for a second. But I want to take us back to something you said. And that is the phrase, the Marvel package. Which I have to assume is what Kevin Feige calls his junk.

[00:15:01] It's a very impressive package. I waited two minutes to make that joke. I've really held on to it for quite a while. I hope you all enjoyed it. No, you preferred Thor. Did that come out the same year as this then? It did. Same summer. Same summer. Right. Okay. Yeah. I mean, jumping for a little bit for me. I didn't have any of that backstory or the kids parties or anything. Captain America always seemed a bit too rah-rah USA for me. Yeah. And also, I was not a comic book guy.

[00:15:29] I'm a science fiction guy or a spy movie guy. Bond. Like, I never was really drawn to comics. When they announced Thor in Captain America, I was like, oh, okay. I mean, I don't know anything about these people, really. I've seen images. I know what Thor looks like. I can kind of visualize it. But I have no built-in feeling about anyone. But I said to myself, the toughest job of the three is trying to sell Thor. Yeah. Captain America, I could see how you could do it.

[00:15:58] It's a tough line. But I could see how you could do it. But Thor, I'm like, you know, Iron Man was grounded. It's a guy who built a suit of armor. It makes sense. Thor is like, oh, mystic trees and Mjolnir and, I don't know, gods that will live forever. I felt the opposite. I felt like they would just kind of coast on that kind of Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones kind of energy and just call it a day.

[00:16:26] Whereas, like, Captain America, I thought, how the hell are they going to sell this movie outside of the U.S.? Well, maybe I was just sort of taking it from, like, a filmmaking perspective, how you could pull off such a feat. And lo and behold, I think they pulled them both off. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And we'll get into Captain America. But, like, that's some, right? For me, Captain America is the film that sticks with me. Hmm. Interesting. Thor. Like, I remember bits of Thor.

[00:16:53] But if you put a gun to my head, I don't think I could recall any major scenes. Except where, like, the Destroyer or whatever it's called turns up in that little village and starts blowing it up. I really like the Hangout vibe of Thor. And that really stuck with me. And it's a movie that I know people do not look kindly upon as much these days. But I honestly really like kind of the character chemistry in that movie. I don't really care that the action isn't top notch because you have things like Loki.

[00:17:21] And I really enjoy Loki in that movie. And there's some good music. It's got some visuals I enjoy. I don't know. Like, I've always felt like a little bit of a very Loki defender. Oh! Very Loki defender of the original Thor. Hey, it's got to have its fans. And I'm sure there are other people listening who completely agree with you. Just from my side of things, I just think... We'll get into it. But when I watched The First Avenger, which I don't think it was titled here. I think it was just titled Captain America.

[00:17:51] Oh, really? Okay. I think so. I don't remember it being called The First Avenger. I could be wrong. But I remember going, oh, you've really pulled off like a rocketeer here. I didn't really tie the things together particularly. But like that whole... Well, actually, I don't think I made the rocketeer analogy. I think I made the Superman analogy in my head. Yeah. You managed to make the Boy Scout look cool. That's true. Yeah. And that is like, how the hell did you manage that? Because it is absolutely silly.

[00:18:20] And the film even takes a good 20 minutes to point out how silly it is by having him do the USO tour and get war bonds and stuff. And he earns his Captain stripes, I would say. Yeah. And I remember thinking like, while I had a lot of issues, especially with the back half of the movie. Sure. It hit the moments it needed to hit. But it made you care about a character that could be perceived as boring because he is very earnest.

[00:18:46] But when you had like, you know, Skinny Steve, all the material there building up the character, you had him throwing himself on the grenade. Yeah. Those were the moments that mattered. And also even just a scene of him escorting all the prisoners of war back to the, you know, the Allied lines and being right at the front of that. It had that, you know, leader of men kind of quality. And those are things that really mattered. And it made him inspirational. And so it's like, even though I found a lot of the movie around him kind of creaky in

[00:19:16] places, it did its job because we cared about Captain America when the Avengers rolled around the next summer. Yeah. It's that famous Mark Kermode saying, as you make me care about the characters, I care about the film. Well, I probably bastardized it. I was close. But the sentiment is the same. I, you know, the second he throws himself on that grenade or going back to further when he's defending the war bonds trailer at the theater before the main, you know, main show. And the guy's heckling it saying, get out with the cartoon, dude. So whatever.

[00:19:45] And he's like, hey, do you want to step outside, sunny Jim? It's like, yeah, he's sticking up for the little man. Even if he is a little man, he knows he's going to lose that fight. And he goes into it anyway. And he utters that I can do this all day line that will haunt his career forever. Probably into Secret Wars. And beyond. Yeah. Well, no one's ever truly dead anymore. Yeah. So I was on board. I was like, oh, you've actually got me here. And I care. And I continue to care.

[00:20:11] And I think that where he ends up in Endgame is the perfect ending to the character. I do not know what they want to do with him now. Yeah. Well, I think it will depend entirely on the success of Brave New World opening in theaters. I think this weekend. Yeah. If that movie's a huge hit, they'll be confident in the future of Captain America with Anthony Mackie. If it underperforms, then they go, hold on, folks. We may need Chris Evans. Oh, I'm sure he's turning up in Secret Wars, though. Yeah.

[00:20:41] In some form, Chris Evans will be coming back. Yes. So there will be Cap or The Flash or something. The Flash? Not The Flash. The wrong universe, Scott. Human Torch. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not so much a fan of that. But we're digressing. Let's get back to the first Avenger. How did he... I don't have a witty line for this. How did he capture the minds and attitudes of Hollywood and make them want to make a movie?

[00:21:11] Cam Smith, everyone. Round of applause. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So let's talk a little bit about the character. Captain America was created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby in Captain America Comics number one in 1940 for Timely Comics. Now, Timely was the name of Marvel before Marvel was Marvel. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he was created as a response to Superman and Batman, the huge success that was going on over at DC.

[00:21:39] And DC was not called DC at the time, but I don't remember the name of that company then. But the writer, Joe Simon, was looking at those characters and said, like, what made them work was they were defined by their villains. And so he's looking at Lex Luthor and the Joker and characters like that and saying, like, okay, clearly these work because the villains are so memorable and really test the hero. So who is the best villain I can come up with? Hmm.

[00:22:08] What about Adolf Hitler? And so suddenly it made a lot of sense to create this World War II hero. And this is also before America has intervened in the war. And so Joe Simon was also using the character to support America's intervention in the war and was even originally going to call the character Super American, but changed the name because Super was already used in Superman. It was a little too, I think there was a lot of knockoffs going on at that point in time.

[00:22:37] And so he went with Captain America instead. Yeah. I mean, your hand-drawn Super Cam comic didn't quite catch on at the time. Sorry. Nice try though. Did not. You're welcome. Well done. That's very good. So obviously the character has his roots in propaganda because Joe Simon is, you know, very much supporting America joining the war. Yep. And so Captain America is there to kind of fuel that attitude.

[00:23:04] And in Captain America number one, it also introduced, in addition to Captain America, the Red Skull and Bucky Barnes. So right from day one, they had kind of the established core elements of what we'll see in First Avenger. When do the, is it the Howling Commandos? That's a little more complicated because Howling Commandos were actually Nick Fury's team. Oh. And so that was the team that Nick Fury led in his comic book line. And so the comic was even called Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos.

[00:23:35] But when it came to this movie, they decided to assign that team to Captain America. Oh, I always assumed they were just Captain America's people. For all I know, they have paired those, you know, that team with Captain America in the comics since. But as I said, I was never a Captain America reader beyond. I did read the Winter Soldier arc in advance of the film. But beyond that, not a lot of experience with the character. Captain the Commandos or something like that. Something like that.

[00:24:02] The thing was like Captain America was with a super team called the Invaders at certain points in the wartime era where the Invaders would have had some of the earlier timely comics heroes. The most well-known would be Namor or the Sub-Mariner who showed up in Black Panther, Wakanda Forever. And also an early version of the Human Torch. Before he was Johnny Storm, he was an android character who looked pretty much the same minus no facial features

[00:24:29] and had the flaming body and he would be a World War II hero as well. I mean, I also have a flaming body. Oh. And also no facial features. You're like the blank in Dick Tracy. Flame off. Yeah. So the Invaders were more of a prominent element, but also the likelihood of them introducing those characters

[00:24:58] within the origin story of this movie doesn't really make sense versus like a group of soldiers who you can just kind of cast by stereotypes to a certain degree and be like, there you go. There you go. I mean, we saw Namor in Black Panther 2 and I was nonplussed. He's a great character, but that movie didn't really do him any favors. Yeah. Isn't he like a really boring Aquaman? He's not boring. He can't even talk to fish, right? He doesn't have that power?

[00:25:28] I don't think he does. No, but he's like very fiery. He's a character who's not really a hero. He's always kind of on the line and he will just do what's best for Atlantis. And so he's often a villain, depending on what his motivations are. There's good people on both sides. That's right. Just like the great Clone Wars. Yeah. Yeah. Those robots. There were some real heroes among them. I was more with the Gungans myself, but hey. The Nemodians.

[00:25:59] Heroes. Heroes to the end. So basically Captain America, hugely successful in the 1940s. And then things start to dip in the 50s. Because in the 50s, superheroes just completely fall out of vogue. And comics focus more on horror and sci-fi in that time period. Yeah. So Captain America is metaphorically put on ice.

[00:26:23] And the character disappears and is reintroduced in Avengers number four, 1964. Which then connects him with the Avengers team. And that's the Captain America we really know in the modern era. Was he quite literally put on ice at some point in the comics? Like this film does at the end? Okay. So that is not how the character really ended up in the 1950s.

[00:26:51] When they're looking at unpopular opinions to the Korean War and saying like, okay, this character no longer has a place. They did not suddenly send him, you know, rocket into ice. But... I know he didn't get poochied. I understand that. I just mean like, you know, do they ever explain it in modern day Avengers comics that... How did he get from here to there? There to here. Yes. When he shows up in Avengers number four, they do reveal what happened to him and how he wound up where he is. Okay.

[00:27:20] That's what I mean. Right. So that sort of idea of his origin story is sort of based on comic. It is. Yes. They took it pretty exact. And all the superhero serum stuff, that's all there. And it was interesting because the creator, Joe Simon, always said the superhero serum stuff. He always thought that was the weakest element of the character because he's just like, we needed something.

[00:27:42] And we just kind of like phoned in an origin story and probably not realizing that this character would have decades and decades of exploration going forward. I think it's a good way of making good on a Brooklyn boy who's trying his best. I honestly don't see the problem with it. I actually think it's a pretty good origin, but he was really down on it. I think it's more like it's a cheat code that other people can use after Captain America and you do see that.

[00:28:07] Maybe it doesn't have the weight of Superman's mythic origins or Batman's tragic story. But then it's based on invention and science and progression. We invented this serum. It wasn't like it was gifted to us by the Asgardians or something like that. It was, you know, I mean, in this film, it was Stanley Tucci who came up with it. But the character that he's playing. But like, I don't know what the comic book origin of that is. But a human being created this.

[00:28:35] I believe Dr. Erskine was the one that created it in the comics. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. It has that American ingenuity as well, which would have been very important to a 1940s wartime audience. Well, he's German, but still. Sure, but he's working for the U.S. and it's a U.S. operation to create Captain America. So I would think that, like, they would really want to champion that and recognize kind of why that works thematically. But I don't know. I think it loses some of his interest when you duplicate. That's all.

[00:29:06] Like, how many Hulks do you need? And also, I wonder when you start to compare it to the future of Marvel and you're looking at the origin stories of, like, Fantastic Four and Spider-Man and stuff like that. You go, oh, this isn't as exciting. Yeah, but I guess, like, to some people, and this is maybe more of a meta discussion on the Captain America character for a second. Captain America is lame. He is the, like, good, like, good, good, good guy.

[00:29:34] There is never any question about his morality. Of course, there are, like, he does the whole, like, Captain Hydra or whatever it is at one point and stuff, I'm sure. But he is, like, a bastion of all things good, great, take your pills, eat your vitamins, say your prayers, you know, that sort of thing. The good old American boy. And to some people, especially, like, cynical people in the modern age, who, like, turn their noses up at him. But it's a simplistic origin for him.

[00:30:04] But I think it lends to the whole idea that he comes from nothing. And it isn't this whole big convoluted, oh, I was in a lab one day and a spider came down and bit me. And then I woke up next day and picked up a tray full of someone's lunch. I like it, too. I quite like it. It doesn't need to have layers. Make it simple, man. Simple man. Now that's my superhero. When you're developing it for a film, too, though, it's less cinematic than some of the other ones. They make it cinematic in this. They did? It works.

[00:30:34] It works. Like, it works fantastically well. But I wonder if you're just, like, thinking about it. Going like, okay, well. I mean, I'm Hayley Atwell in that moment when I see him come out and then, like, go to touch his chest. And you're like, oh, I can't do that. He's a human. Oopsie. That's what you did when you first met me. Yeah, you wish you looked like Captain America. You looked like Captain America before the serum, like I said before. I went to touch you and you fell over. That's right. Wound up in the hospital. Yeah.

[00:31:00] So, the success of the character on the comic book page led to him being used in serials starring Dick Purcell in the 1940s. I thought you actually meant cereal, I guess. Like a box of cereal. Captain O's. Well, maybe, maybe. Americos. There it is. And then later down the road, there was two 1979 TV movies starring Red Brown that were really capitalizing on the success of Evel Knievel. All right, yeah.

[00:31:28] So, he wears, like, a motorcycle helmet and does a lot of motorcycle stunts. Okay. They're not very good. But the latter film, Death Too Soon, co-stars Christopher Lee and Lana Wood. Wow. Has it got some Bond flavors in there? Or is it, like, a purposeful thing? It doesn't really have Bond elements. No, I mean, Christopher Lee plays, like, I think an evil spy in it. But, yeah. Patreon. It's possible, actually. I didn't really think about that. But, yeah. Death Too Soon.

[00:31:57] Coming to you soon. Sign up now, folks. Patreon.com slash spyhards. I can hear that cash register cha-chinging right now. Yeah. They're not good. Especially the first one. I remember being really bored in the first one. In Captain America, it's so 1970s. He, like, drives around in a van. And he's, like, pulls his motorcycle out of the back. Get in, kids. Yeah. And he's, like, hey, man. Hop on the bike. Do some jumps. Gnarly, dude. I'm Captain America, man. Yeah.

[00:32:25] And then there was also that 1990 film I mentioned. But let's get to how this movie happened. So, in 1997, Marvel Studios, which was then run by Stan Lee, Avya Rad, and Matt Edelman, were looking to launch the comic book universe onto the big screen. Marvel had had a lot of bankruptcy issues over the years and a lot of very bad luck or just poor choices in terms of their properties.

[00:32:50] Where, you know, you've got that Fantastic Four Roger Corman film that was made for, like, a million dollars. Yeah. The rights to a lot of the characters were tossed around very willy-nilly. Spider-Man was an issue for a long time. But they made a big announcement in, I believe it was Variety, basically saying the Marvel Universe is coming to the big screen and it's going to be big. And they announced, like, 15 movies. It was crazy. I didn't even remember this. When was this? I don't even know if I knew about it. This would have been 1997. I found the actual original article.

[00:33:20] What did they announce? Oh, let me start. Okay, so I'm just going to go through them because some of them were incredible and some of them did wind up happening. Okay, all right. You have Namor was the first movie they mentioned in the story and it was going to be directed by Philip Kaufman who did The Right Stuff. So that's a big director. Silver Surfer directed by Jeffrey Wright who had done the movie Romper Stomper which actually launched Russell Crowe.

[00:33:45] Fantastic Four directed by Peter Siegel who would later go on and do the My Spy films. And Red, right? Not Red. Those same writers did Red and My Spy. Ah, that's the connection. Right. I'm with you. But Peter Siegel also did like Tommy Boy and Naked Gun 33 in a third. Okay. You have X-Men directed by Bryan Singer. That one happened. Yeah, yeah. It definitely happened. We covered it on the Patreon. Iron Man, no director attached but will star Nick Cage.

[00:34:16] Ooh. I'm glad we, I mean, is this a Secret Wars theme? We're going to get Nick Cage come out of a multiverse portal as Iron Man? Maybe, maybe. That's the big thing. He comes, they're like, oh, Nick Cage has been cast and everyone's like, oh, Ghost Rider, right? And he turns up as Iron Man. Everyone's very confused. Mm-hmm. Daredevil directed by Carlo Carlay who was an Italian director who hasn't done a lot in North America. He did do a dog movie called Fluke in, I think, 95.

[00:34:44] But beyond that, mostly just Italian work. But he was attached to do Daredevil. Okay. That one happened eventually. Yeah. Incredible Hulk directed by Joe Johnston. Oh. Mm-hmm. So they kept the name around and then gave the film to someone else. Uh-huh. Ang Lee, right, was the first one? Yeah. And Joe Johnston, of course, is doing Captain America. Of course, which is what we're talking about. Yeah. Spider-Man directed by James Cameron. That one's kind of notorious. That one's well known. What? Yeah, James Cameron was going to do Spider-Man. Wow.

[00:35:13] You can find all the stuff online about that movie. It's crazy. It has a sex scene on top of a bridge where he webs Mary Jane's hands down. It's crazy. It was going to be R-rated. That's not for kids. It was not a kid's movie. It was an R-rated film. And I believe there was a couple of villains they flirted with. I think it was going to settle on a character named Strand, who was basically Electro. And I think it was Sandman, maybe.

[00:35:40] But they were also at a certain point talking to Arnold Schwarzenegger about playing Dr. Octopus. I thought you were going to say Spider-Man for a second. I was like, no. No. DiCaprio. DiCaprio was Spider-Man. What? Yeah. Wait. 95? This is 97. They made the announcement. But this movie had been developed for a couple of years. This would have been part of the package. So this is like post-Titanic? Before Titanic. It would have been... That's 97 then, right? It would have been like... Yeah.

[00:36:10] It would have been right around the same time period as Titanic coming out. So he would have made Titanic with DiCaprio at this point. And they're like, hey, I want to work with him again, but be Spider-Man this time. They'd been developing Spider-Man for a while and DiCaprio was attached. So, yeah. Yeah. Genuinely, I'm not even blowing smoke. I didn't know that. Yeah. The James Cameron Spider-Man is legendary. I think there's documentaries about it. You can probably go to YouTube and watch breakdowns of the insane script. There's a lot there. Okay. Question. Just for... Because we're taking tangents in this episode.

[00:36:39] Just get strapped in, folks. Just enjoy it. Yeah. Just pretend you're being lowered into the Super Serum machine slowly. This is the audio version of the Super Serum machine wrapping around you right now. Of those films you listed, I don't know if you listed them all. No, there's more. There's crazy ones to come. Oh, then I have a question at the end. Keep going. Okay. Black Panther starring Wesley Snipes. Okay. Yeah. All right. Wait. Yeah. When did Blade come out? 99? No. Blade is 98.

[00:37:08] So this would have been like... That's him first stepping into the Marvel realm. Blade's already in the works. And so they're actually looking at Wesley Snipes playing both characters. Wow. These are standalone movies. These are not connected universes. No, but like... There's an iconography thing going on here. Like people know that these are connected characters. Yeah. They were also developing movies without people attached on Venom, Doctor Strange, Ghost Rider, and Mort the Dead Teenager. You'll have to fill me in on the last one.

[00:37:38] I can't really fill you in on that one. I don't remember Mort the Dead Teenager very well. Just that he's a teenager and deceased. Yes. And then of course, lastly, they were developing Captain America, which would be written by Larry Wilson, who worked on The Addams Family. Okay. And Les Boehm, who worked on Dante's Peak. Both good films. Yeah. That's a crazy lineup of films. To announce it once. Like this was like a...

[00:38:06] Everyone, we are storming the cinemas. Here's a list of 15 movies. Because I read a book that came out recently, a couple of years now, MCU, The Reign of Marvel Studios. A really, really good behind the scenes book on sort of Marvel up until sort of post-end game, really. Yeah. And there was a lot about Avi Arad and him being a bit of a... Unstable? Yeah. Not unstable mentally, but just like financially, not one to bet upon. Yes. Yeah.

[00:38:37] And I think he was eventually ousted from the inner sanctum of MCU. He was, yeah. This is one of his gambles then, I assume. That's what he was known for, right? Yeah. And obviously, a lot of these didn't happen, but X-Men did. And he would produce the Spider-Man films, which would be huge hits as well. So he had a lot of successes early on, but he was not part of the Marvel Studios package that really launched with Iron Man. Right. I have this question. I can't let you go without the question. Yeah.

[00:39:06] Do you think that the Secret Wars film or the other one they're doing, Doomsday, because they'll all have multiverse shenanigans, I'm sure. Sure. Will any of these films get a reference? No. No. I think these are pretty obscure. I don't think people know about these. Yeah. But then having, like, Nicolas Cage's Spider-Man in, sorry, Nicolas Cage's Superman in The Flash is pretty obscure, too. That's known, though. Like, that was an actual project that I think fans know about.

[00:39:34] I don't think people know about most of these things. What you're more like. You told me that DiCaprio's Spider-Man was notorious. That one is more likely, but you're not going to get DiCaprio showing up in Secret Wars. He's not doing that movie. Andrew Garfield, Tobey Maguire, Tom Holland, and. DiCaprio. The one people always think might happen is Tom Cruise's Iron Man, because he was cast, or at least interested in the character at a certain point. I could see that.

[00:39:59] Yeah, that's the one I think you had the best chance, but most of these are just kind of vapor project things, where it's like screenplays were written. But ultimately, they didn't have the money to make these movies. Sure. And so that's what happened. And so it was a couple years went by. And then in the year 2000, Marvel made a deal with Artisan Entertainment to make a Captain America movie and a Thor TV series. But clearly those things didn't happen.

[00:40:24] And the Captain America half of the equation was because there was a lawsuit between Joe Simon, the writer of Captain America, and Marvel over ownership. And who came out on top on that one? I think they made a deal. Because Joe Simon is listed as creator in First Avenger. Okay. Yeah. I'm sure it was a very hefty check. Yeah. And so that's 2005.

[00:40:46] Merrill Lynch Investment decides to work with Marvel and fund these films, 10 films, Captain America being one of them. And this is obviously leading into what will happen with Paramount distributing the early Marvel films and Disney coming along later. But the idea of Captain America at this point in time was a standalone film. The first half would be in World War II. The second half would be in the modern day. I'm glad they didn't go that way. Yeah.

[00:41:16] And around the point of them developing this, there's a director who is actually quite interested in doing this movie. And his name is Jon Favreau. Okay. Well, yeah. Guy's got some MCU cred. Not at this point, but he will go on to have some. Yeah. And he really saw the comic potential. Of the character being a fish out of water in the modern day. And so that's the angle he's looking at it from. Glad we didn't get that. Yeah. So he wound up on Iron Man instead. And that was that.

[00:41:44] And Jon Favreau has producer credits on all the Avengers films and I'm sure is living large for the rest of his life. Hey, he still turns up to play Happy from time to time. I think he still quite loves that universe. I think so too. Yeah. Yeah. And so they hired a writer named David Self who had done movies like Road to Perdition, 13 Days, the Cuban Missile Crisis film with Kevin Costner. And he helped Joe Johnson along on The Wolfman, which had like 17 writers. But he was hired to write the screenplay for this film.

[00:42:14] And there was enough there that interested Joe Johnston. And he is someone whose career is kind of legendary. He began with Lucasfilm working on the original Star Wars. He was an art director of visual effects on Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Return of the Jedi. Starts directing with 1989's Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. Goes on and does movies like The Rocketeer, Jumanji, October Sky, Jurassic Park 3.

[00:42:40] Does do The Wolfman as well, which is actually one of those situations where he's brought in to fix the project because it's gone so wrong. But it leads into Captain America. And he was hired almost entirely because of two films. The Rocketeer, which they wanted that kind of World War II action movie energy. But also October Sky, which had the character drama that they really liked. October Sky. Remind me of that one. I don't... It's not ringing any bells.

[00:43:07] Yeah, it's starring Jake Gyllenhaal. And it's about... It's like a biopic about... I think his name was Homer Hickman, who was a physicist who worked in like the rocket program or the space program. And it's about him as a young man growing up in like a kind of a working class town with a very strict father played by Chris Cooper. And wanting to do more than just, you know, work in a mine, I think. Work down the mines or something. Yeah. It's a good film, actually. Right.

[00:43:36] I mean, Rocketeer energy alone. I could see that being a through line to this film. Oh, totally. Totally. Yeah. And so what happened was Joe Johnson's like, I love this. Let's do it. Writer's Strike. The 2008 one. Yes. Yeah. The 2007 to 2008. Writer's Strike kicks in. And Joe Johnson is not officially signed yet. He's developing it, but he hasn't agreed to direct 100%.

[00:44:06] And so the writer's strike happens. And over this point, another director is like, you know what? I kind of want to do this Captain America movie. And that is Louis Leterrier, who does The Incredible Hulk. Oh, he did the second one, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so he was working on Hulk. And initially it said, like, Captain America just did not interest him because he's from France. Like, this character didn't connect with him. But he said while he was working on the Hulk and was seeing a lot of the artwork they were

[00:44:33] developing for Captain America, he was like, oh, I could do something really cool with this. And he did pitch himself, but ultimately Joe Johnson was the one who was signed, sealed, and delivered to direct the movie. I think everything turned out right in this version of the multiverse. Yeah. I like Louis Leterrier, though, in terms of his action direction. There's some really great stuff in The Hulk. I think The Hulk is the better Hulk film. The Incredible Hulk. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, which one's the Edward Norton one? That's The Incredible Hulk. Sorry. That's what I mean. Yeah. That's a...

[00:45:03] I mean, I know what Ang Lee was going for. Yeah. But that one always rubbed me the wrong way. I am in the same boat as you on that one as well. And so, at this point, Joe Johnson hires two writers to come in and basically overhaul everything. They are the ones with the sole credit on the screenplay for this film. And that is Stephen McFeely and Christopher Marcus, who are an American writing team. They broke into the scene with a 2000 episode of the TV show Good vs. Evil.

[00:45:32] And then they did a HBO film in 2004 called The Life and Death of Peter Sellers. And that was starring Jeffrey Rush. And it got a lot of attention at the time. And it kind of opened the doors for them. And then they become like big-time studio writers. They wrote the Chronicles of Narnia films, the first of which was a huge hit. Yeah. And kind of paved the way for them. And then they rolled really just right into Captain America from the three Narnia films.

[00:46:00] And since then, they did Pain and Gain for Michael Bay, which is a little off the beaten track for them. But, like, they have since worked in the Marvel Universe almost exclusively. So they worked on Thor The Dark World, the second and third Captain America films, the Agent Carter TV show, Avengers Infinity War, and Endgame. And they also wrote The Grey Man. Oh, yes. Which was directed by the Russo brothers who were from the MCU and obviously brought them over.

[00:46:30] I find it hard to find joy in that film anymore. Yeah. Yeah. One of those spy films that just vanished down the streaming black hole. And these writers are actually attached and probably currently working on Avengers Doomsday and Avengers Secret Wars. Which are also directed by the Russo brothers, right? Yeah, they are coming back. Yeah. Yeah. It's a family affair. It is.

[00:46:54] And Kevin Feige said one of the crucial elements that made this movie marketable was the election of Barack Obama as president. Because he was selling the idea of hope. Uh-huh. And they were like, we can sell the idea of hope in a World War II action film built around Captain America. He really saw that as crucial. And there was actually initially the plan to call the movie First Avenger Captain America. Right. And really put the first Avenger up front. And they ended up switching it because they felt like the atmosphere would allow it then.

[00:47:23] So, yeah. I think moving it... I mean, I keep saying this was a good idea. This was a good idea. Yes, moving that round was a good idea. But I think the whole Barack Obama presidency thing was just fortuitous timing. I agree. Yeah. I mean, there was definitely a change in the wind around about that point. People were looking for a little bit more hope. That was his platform for being elected. So, yeah. I can understand him buying into a more earnest superhero. Yeah. Definitely. And so, it came to casting Captain America.

[00:47:52] It was a role that there was basically every actor who was blonde or close to blonde was up for this role. Names like Channing Tatum, Ryan Felipe, Garrett Hedlund, Dane Cook apparently tested for this movie. I doubt it. Zachary Levi, Jensen Ackles from Supernatural. Sebastian Stan went up for this role and ended up getting Bucky instead. Chris Pratt tried out for it. Wyatt Russell, who would go on to play US Agent.

[00:48:22] But the name that's really interesting was John Krasinski, who tested for this movie. And that name got floated online a lot. And there was a lot of theories that Marvel was close to casting him, but we floated the name out there to get response, to see what people felt about it. And what was the sort of reaction to John Krasinski at the time? Not good. Not good. And people were like, you can't get the guy from The Office to play Captain America. And since then, we see John Krasinski differently because of Jack Ryan and other projects like that.

[00:48:51] And he's gone on to play... Mr. Fantastic, yeah. Oliver Reed, is it? Not Oliver Reed. You're thinking of Condor Man. Scott, pull yourself out of Condor Man. I just can't. Reed Richards. Yeah, that's right. Reed Richards. I got Reed right. You did. But yeah, so they ended up casting Chris Evans. And people were down for that. That was actually well celebrated at the time. I think the only thing I knew him from at that point was Scott Pilgrim.

[00:49:21] Not Fantastic Four? Oh yeah, I suppose. I don't look on those films particularly fondly. Sure. The Losers he was in as well. I remember him from a few things. I don't think I've seen that. Not another teen movie? No. I was a big Scott Pilgrim head. So that was my Chris Evans go-to. Yeah, yeah. Was Scott Pilgrim. Right. And then Peggy Carter. They were looking at Keira Knightley, Alice Eve, and Emily Blunt in addition to Hayley Atwell.

[00:49:50] Emily Blunt actually removed herself from consideration. So she may have gotten it. Who knows? But when John Krasinski didn't get Captain America, she pulled out as well. Yeah, and she was actually, I wonder if this is around the period where she wanted Black Widow and was cast as Black Widow but had to drop out to do Gulliver's Travels. Oof. Yeah, it was a contractual thing. Oh no. And so yeah, maybe she shows up in Secret Wars as Black Widow. Who knows?

[00:50:18] It's a perfect scene, right? You have the silhouette of Black Widow land with the hair flopped down during the superhero landing. Yeah. And then the red hair flicks up and it's Emily Blunt. Everyone's like, what? I wouldn't rule it out. I think that one's quite possible. Did I just write a scene in Secret Wars? Maybe, maybe. Because that was a big story. It was her getting the role and having to drop out. If that happens, that's lazy writing on their part. Because if I came up with it, not good.

[00:50:46] I wonder if she dropped out of this movie because of what was going on with Iron Man 2. If she was like, no, I'm going to be Black Widow. Sure, probably hedging your bets. Because I think it would have, I mean. It is a bigger role of the two. But we wouldn't have known that Peggy Carter would go on to have the legacy she's gone on to have. Definitely not. No. I mean, Hayley Atwell, I think, still voicing the character in the What If show. Yeah. Yeah, she's still going. And I think we'll probably be back in the Avengers films in some capacity. You're going to get her version of Captain America again, for sure. Captain Britain.

[00:51:17] Was she Captain Britain? Of course she was. Of course she was, Scott. Yeah, of course. Oh, she had the Union Jack on the shield. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Let's do that. That's the closest you're going to get to a Captain Britain, I think. Yeah, I think so too. Can you imagine a scene where they fight? Captain America and Captain Britain. Now we're talking. We are talking indeed. And then Captain Canuck turns up and they both just beat the crap out of Captain Canuck. Oh, I like her calling him Canuck, Canuck, Canuck. It would be Captain Canuck. What did I say? Canuck?

[00:51:46] Yeah, you're like Canuck. Okay, Captain Canuck. Are you happy? I am happy now. Okay. So there were some minor rewrites done on the film by Joss Whedon, just to bridge this film to the Avengers. Everyone's favorite. Yeah. That's right. Just to bridge this film to the Avengers, obviously, which he would direct the following year. Okay, so this movie had a budget of $140 million. Domestically, it did $176.6.

[00:52:12] International, $193 for a worldwide total of $370.6. This was not a home run. That's not as good as I thought. I genuinely thought this was an absolute slam dunk. So let me go through the earlier Marvel movies. Iron Man does $585.5. Domestic? No, worldwide. Okay. I was like, wow, what a hole. Incredible Hulk, $264.8. I can understand that. Yeah, that one's an underperformer. Iron Man 2, $623.9.

[00:52:42] Thor, $449.3. Unproven character, sure. Yeah, but Thor did like $70 million more than Captain America. Do you know the release dates? This obviously came out later. Thor was May, Captain America was July. Both prime time to release films. Yeah. No excuse there. Nope. It just was something about the marketing connected more so for Thor, I would say. Some people were put off by period pieces.

[00:53:09] That's probably the reason why Bond's never gone that way, I don't think. Also, you're marketing Captain America internationally. That's why. All around the world, they dig Asgardians. That's right. Asgardians, no-no boundaries. That's what I've been told. Captain America was number 18 for the year between The Adventures of Tintin and X-Men First Class. Thor was number 15. And the top three for the year, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 was number one.

[00:53:38] Transformers Dark of the Moon was number two. And number three was Pirates of the Caribbean on Stranger Tides. I think I've seen almost every film you've mentioned that year. 2011 was one of those years where it's like any blockbuster rose to the top. It's just a gimme. It was a bad year for the Oscars. But in terms of the blockbusters, there's a lot of very memorable ones. Yeah, I feel like I must have paid for a lot of cinema tickets that year. Yeah.

[00:54:03] My only final note on this one is, I mean, obviously Captain America goes on to do a lot of films after this one. So that stuff's said and done, we know. But Hugo Weaving was not really that big a fan of doing this film. He, while doing press for The Hobbit, the following year after the release of this movie, he was asked if he would be doing it again, come back as Red Skull.

[00:54:30] Because Red Skull is a pretty iconic Captain America villain. And the ending of this movie is kind of ambiguous as to what happens to him. But he said, it's not something I would want to do again. I'm glad I did it. I did sign up for a number of pictures. And I suppose, contractually, I would be obligated to if they forced me to. But they wouldn't want to force someone to do it if they didn't want to. I think I've done my dash with that sort of film. It was good to do it and try it out, to be honest.

[00:54:57] It's not my sort of film I seek out and I really am excited by. I think that is the most graceful way of bowing out of a contractual obligation I've ever heard. Yeah, like it really was a, I did it, I'm good. Like I just, I think a number of years later was asked again about it. I think maybe even in the wake of Infinity War, where Ross Markand took over that role for a brief bit as the Stonekeeper. And he said, you know, like, it was a good role to do.

[00:55:27] It was fun to do. But like, I'm just not passionate about these types of films. I totally get it. And it's not like you can't say, it's not like you can say he's never done a film for younger generations. You know, he's in Lord of the Rings, for God's sake. Like, and he's done The Matrix. Like, he's done a film for every generation. He doesn't need to prove anything. Good for him.

[00:55:47] I think he just likes maybe like the weight of something like Lord of the Rings versus something like this, which is much more, you know, like matinee, blockbuster kind of stuff. But I think like, and this is again, probably a diversion into a meta discussion. But a lot of these Marvel films, the ill-fated C word, content, tends to come up. I would never describe the Lord of the Rings films. I might describe the Hobbit films as content. Right.

[00:56:16] And maybe the new Lord of the Rings film that's coming. Who knows? That's content with a capital C. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think like, this is a time period too, where Marvel was not writing juicy material for their villains. Loki got a fair amount to do, but Loki was an anomaly. Most of these roles were pretty superficial. And this, I mean, this, this, this leans on his performance, I think more than the material.

[00:56:39] I think was like, I mean, not to say too much, but I mean, Red Skull was, I thought a really iconic, cool villain in the comics. And I was not happy walking out of this movie particularly. Okay. Well, I think we're here. Yeah. Let's avenge. Let's avenge. Let's first avenge. Let's first avenge. There'll be more Avengers. We'll avenge for the first time. The first of many. Unless you all hate it. And it'll be our last avenge. I guess we'll avenge with Captain America 2 and Black Widow. Beyond that, I don't know.

[00:57:08] Oh, that's true. That's true. I mean, to be fair, we've, we've first avenged before with Remo Williams. That was revenge on us. And listeners. Let's talk about it. I want you to open up the discussion a little bit because I've sort of already hinted that I kind of like this film. You came out with a bit more of a sour taste in your mouth when you saw it in theaters. Preferring Thor, not saying you hated this, but like you preferred Thor over this.

[00:57:37] Going back to it in 2025, has that changed? I don't know that it has really. I still feel like going back to this movie, and I know this movie has like a, in the years since, has a real groundswell of love for it. You go into Letterboxd and it's kind of interesting where it's like a sea of like four and five star reviews mixed with three star reviews. And it's like, there is definitely like a camp that really holds this one highly in the Marvel cinematic canon.

[00:58:07] And I watch it and I'm like, I really, really like the first half of it. I think all of the setup with Skinny Steve, I will add the CG has not held up well at all. One of the things I've noted is, yeah, that has weirdly, it seems worse now. Yeah, it's pretty bad. I think 4K doesn't help it. No, but like the heart of the character is there. And I'm really into the journey that he goes through. And there's some wonderful stuff.

[00:58:36] Like I love when they go to the World's Fair and it has that retro futuristic vibe. Like it's, that is not how the World's Fair would have looked at that time period. But it's so comic book-y and beautiful to look at that I'm like swept up. I love the World War II, like patriotism of that character and like the purity of it. And that expression of just wanting to help your fellow man in a very difficult time. All that stuff really clicks.

[00:59:00] I like Joe Johnson's approach to that kind of gee whiz spirit, which we see a lot in The Rocketeer. That part, this is not a part I think that's going to get shouted out on a lot of podcasts. The part where Captain America is pursuing the German spy and he takes that kid hostage. And, you know, Captain America gets the kid. Sorry, the kid gets thrown into the water. And then the kid says to Captain America, I can swim. Go get him, Cap. Perfect.

[00:59:27] You can't ask for a better note for a Captain America movie than that. I think that sums up perfectly what the movie should be. But I find the back half of this one, maybe starting with the action montage of Captain America and the Howling Commandos just going on missions. It kind of loses it for me. I don't think the action is particularly spectacular. A lot of the character stuff takes a backseat to just plot mechanics. And I just think it...

[00:59:55] When you watch something like Raiders of the Lost Ark and you are getting to the action heavy back half, those action set pieces are unbelievable. Like they are carrying you by the seat of your pants. The Rocketeer somewhat as well. When you get to that Zeppelin finale, it's incredible stuff. I find the action in this movie, it's just not that interesting. And a lot of it looks really bad. There's a lot of terrible green screen in this movie. Almost unforgivable green screen.

[01:00:21] It reminded me of Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow or whatever that film was called. Where like it's all green screen backdrop. Yeah. Like there's a scene in a warehouse with them driving the car. And I'm just like this looks... You know everyone ridicules Kingdom of the Crystal Skull for that scene in the jungle. Where you have the vehicles driving. There's the sword fight and it all looks very fake. And people are like this is crap. Look at this. And I'm like well it's doing the same thing as Captain America.

[01:00:50] You can't make the excuse for Captain America. It works because it's a you know 1940s serial based adventure. When Indiana Jones is doing the same thing and looks the same way. It's like... And it is based on the same sort of adventure story. Yeah. Exactly. And so like I just find it loses a lot of the charm in the back half. And so I've always kind of struggled with this one. In that I'll watch it over and over. I mean I've seen it probably like I don't know six times or something like that. And I'll watch the first half and be like. Oh man. Like I'm wrong.

[01:01:20] Clearly this movie works. And then I get to the second hour and I'm like. Oh you're losing me. You're losing me. And a lot of that will be you know the villain stuff. That's just not interesting and what have you. I think I'm at the other end to you. Okay. That's not to say there isn't faults here. I think the CG has aged terribly. Yeah. I think. And we'll get into a little bit more about these. I think also this film suffers from a lot of.

[01:01:50] Probably Joss Whedon. He's just doing connective stuff with the Avengers. That's my problem. Is there's things in here that have to be put in. Like the Tesseract. It could be anything. But it has to be the Tesseract. I have to explain the Tesseract. And like give you like looks at mystical worlds leading into Thor and stuff like that. Like there has to be interconnectivity stuff. There has to be nods and references that are built into this. Whereas it could just be a story about a man trying to do the right thing. Those are my quibbles.

[01:02:20] But overall. This does everything I wanted the Rocketeer to do. And a bit more. Honestly. It is. Earnest to the point of. I think in generations to come people might find this to be hokey. But for me this works. This film moves me. Emotionally. You know. Red alert. Cam and I. I mean Camden. I grew up on Star Trek Next Generation.

[01:02:48] And Patrick Stewart's Jean-Luc Picard has always been my moral compass. If I'm ever in a quandary. I would think about what his character would do. And I imagine. For a lot of people that's Captain America. Yeah. And this film does that. It gives me that feeling. When he jumps on that grenade. When he you know. Says to Stanley Tucci in the conscription office. Not conscription. But you know what I mean. Yeah.

[01:03:16] I don't want to kill Nazis. I just don't like bullies. And it's like. Yeah. That is. That targets me. In my moral core. That is what I strive for. In my day to day. Can I do good today? Can I help someone? And. Somehow. The writing team. Joe Johnston. Chris Evans. Have. Given me a character. That I can set my moral compass by. And there aren't many. In. In.

[01:03:46] Pop culture. And so I think it's ultimately a success. Because I. I'm moved by it. And. If a film can move me. I can forgive things. Like you know. Oh. Tesseract. Oh. Think about. You know. The life tree. And stuff like that. Like I don't. I don't care. As much about those problems. Because ultimately like. I. I care about the character. They've made me care about this. Guy who walks around in pajamas. Mm-hmm. With a shield. Like.

[01:04:16] It's lunacy. But it works. And. And just also to tip my hat. And I did earlier. But I'll do it again. To the fact that they make this work. This is a guy wearing pajamas. He has. He doesn't really shoot a gun all that often. He uses a shield. He doesn't really kill people. He does like. He disarms them. Or knocks them out. But he's not really out there to hurt people. He's just trying to get his mission done. And. I just think like. In a day and age where like. Cynicism was the cool thing. Yeah. Look at Iron Man. Look at the. Other characters in Thor.

[01:04:46] Thor was very earnest. But all of the scientists around him and stuff. Were just cracking wise jokes the whole film. This film is. Bang on earnest. I think. Chris Evans is. Spectacular in the role. And I think also. Some of the cast in this film do. A lot of heavy lifting. That don't get enough credit for. I think Tommy Lee Jones. He's incredible. He's fantastic in this film. Yeah. Like this could easily be just a paycheck role. For Tommy Lee Jones. He may have looked at it that way. I don't know. Sure.

[01:05:15] I don't know what's in the man's head. But like. He has some of the best dialogue. In the Marvel Universe. Like every line he has. He delivers perfectly. That's funny. It's sharp. And I think like. Him and. Stanley Tucci. Carry a lot of this movie. Alongside Chris Evans. Like. I think Stanley Tucci. Every scene he has. With Chris Evans. Is so heartfelt. Mm-hmm. And touching. Yep. That like. I can't help but notice. When those two characters. Kind of take a backseat in the second half.

[01:05:45] That's where you lose me. And it is having those moments. Because I think Stanley Tucci. That death scene he has. Where he just silently touches. You know. Points to. To Captain America's heart. Yeah. You're like. Perfect. You don't need a speech. You don't need him to say like. Avenge me. Go get him cap. Or whatever. It's just. Yeah. It's pointing out the thing they discussed before. Yeah. It's about. It's amplifying the goodness. Yeah.

[01:06:14] And that's what Captain America is. And I just wrote down like. When it comes to this film. I could watch this all day. Oh. That's so cheesy. That's Captain America appropriate. And I'm. I'm leaning into it. Mm-hmm. I think. I think it is perfect. We're on different. We're on slightly. Estranged wavelengths. But there are things to like about this film. I'm sure we can both agree on. Let's talk about Chris Evans first. Yeah. To come out of. I mean. Obviously. Like you said. He did.

[01:06:44] Human Torch. Scott Pilgrim. The Losers. But this is his defining role in cinema. I don't think there's any argument against that. Um. No. Nope. Not so far. No. There's plenty of time. I'm sure. But like. I can. I read that he turned this down several times. Yeah. And I could see why. I think. It's a role you'd be nervous about. Yeah. And I think. He was right to take it in the end. Because what we've got here.

[01:07:14] Is a character. That they're still asking to come back into films. But suffice to say. I think he. Takes what is a gargantuan task. And makes it look easy. Mm-hmm. I think he is. Emotionally vulnerable at times. Whilst able to look heroic at other times. And doesn't have to rely on making jokes. And that's something I've gotten so bored with cynicism. Mm-hmm. Like I know we crack wise ones on this show.

[01:07:42] But I think ultimately we come here because we love spy movies. And film. And I think that tends to show in our reviews. That we're not just making jokes about stuff half the time. Um. But in films specifically. Like this era. Everything was just cynical. And there was witticisms everywhere. And like everyone was cracking wise ones. You don't really see that in this film. Except for Tommy Lee Jones. But even then. They make sense. Well you have the one-two punch also going on of um. Iron Man. Where Robert Downey Jr. Is quipping away.

[01:08:12] Brilliantly. Yeah. But it's definitely a different energy than Captain America. And also Jack Sparrow is a huge star at the box office as well. Another character that's very. You know. Let's kind of like um. Undercut situations. You know like there's tension. What is Jack Sparrow doing to undercut the tension of that situation? Yeah. Whereas like Captain America is someone who. Who earnestly believes in what he's doing. When you have an action scene. He's committed to resolving it. And I think that was something they really struggled with. In some ways. Was to like.

[01:08:42] Or at least were going into the project. Nervous about. Was how do we deliver these action scenes. Without kind of our. Crutch you could say. Of you know a quip. Or a character that sort of acknowledges. That this is kind of silly. Or absurd. Or what have you. And you don't get that with Captain America. And what I like about it too. Is that. You see him. You know as this very. Tiny little CG character. But when he grows into. The Chris Evans. Workout program.

[01:09:13] There is no sense. Of increased ego. No. There is no sense. Of like well. You know like. I look pretty damn incredible. And I am going to. Have to. Have a character conflict. Now. I have to have an issue. Or I have to overcome. Become. The psychological change. I have to have. I have to have gone through. Becoming an Adonis. You don't get that. He knows who he is. And there is like one moment. Where he is like kissing. This blonde like secretary. And Peggy Carter gets pissed off.

[01:09:43] That maybe he is like. Kind of buying into his own hype. For a second. But it is pretty brief. Stop. And he never has a moment. Of with Bucky. Suddenly like. You know you get a power shift. And you get Bucky making a joke about it. But you don't have Steve exhibiting any sign of awareness of that. Or feeling like he is superior to Bucky. I like that that purity of character remains intact beginning to end. Yeah. I mean to speak to the character. It was the lady's Natalie Dormer.

[01:10:13] And she was in Game of Thrones. So she went on to a bit more fame after that. But like I think it's something also a lot of us can understand. Is maybe not necessarily completely understand. But can see themselves in a situation where you would go for a long time. Without being seen by someone. And then someone sees you. And you're like oh what do I do with this like. I'm desired all of a sudden. Like what does that even mean. And so he was swept up for just a second. I completely understand that. And then he realizes what he wants in that second.

[01:10:41] When Hayley Atwell turns up. And that's basically his compass set for the rest of the film. Believable. Very believable. Yeah. Is the fact she was given googly eyes before the transformation. I do have some questions with. Having been skinny Steve myself. That was not the reality I was dealing with. No. I think I got more attention as not skinny Scott. And I did a skinny Scott. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah.

[01:11:12] I mean I've also been pretty big in terms of like muscle in my life. And I don't know. I think the most amount of luck I've ever had with anyone. Has been when I've been sort of slightly more cuddly. Ladies. There's more to love. Anyways. Hayley Atwell is great in this movie. Like that character as well. I will agree. I agree. Because it's like you had Pepper Potts. And I think she's actually. Gwyneth Paltrow is very strong in Iron Man. Yeah.

[01:11:39] And you get that like kind of classic rom-com banter going on with Tony Stark. I think they struggled a little more so to figure out the dynamic of Jane Foster and Thor. I think they're like. That's why they dropped her. Yeah. Like they're fun together. I don't have any issue with the chemistry between the two of them. But it doesn't feel like it was as well honed as what they had in Iron Man. And it feels like they corrected that here. Whereas I think they found kind of the feistiness of Peggy Carter. You know she's a believable MI6 agent.

[01:12:09] You never for a second question her being out there training. You know with these like you know muscular dudes who would have been joining the war. You know she's taken down one of them in a very believable scene. And great in action scenes. We've seen her do a lot of action since. In the most recent Mission Impossible film as well. So I think she was a. I don't want to say a real find. Because I'd actually seen her in movies before this. But in terms of boosting up her profile to be someone in big budget movies. She's very smart casting choice.

[01:12:39] And there's a reason she got a TV show out of this. Yeah I mean you're only as good as some of your co-stars. And I think if you're trying to sell us on a romance that will span films. Mm-hmm. You need to have good chemistry. And they struck gold with Hayley Atwell. I mean I've rarely seen her let the side down anyway. But no I completely buy it. And also she is an absolute bombshell as well. She's going for that sort of pin-up look with the red lipstick and stuff.

[01:13:09] And they completely understood the assignment. And they've also picked an actor who can not only sort of sell that lovingness. That I think the character needs to have. Because I don't think they were going for like sex appeal. I think they were going for sort of a more wholesome like love. Because there's that whole scene when they're in the car together. When he's still skinny Steve. And she's talking about finding the right partner. Yeah. And she gives him googly eyes. Like that's something a lot of us can understand. And like I think a lot of people would portray.

[01:13:38] Would write women at this era. To be a bit more about like looks and marriage and status. Like the Natalie Dormer who sees Captain America. And just sort of looks at his body. And kind of wants a piece of that because he's famous. She looks beyond all that stuff. She fancied him before he was Captain America. She fancied him as Steve Rogers. And that means a lot to us as the audience. As we're investing in this character. That she doesn't care about his appearance. She cares about the person. And that's really what this whole film is about. The person that is Steve Rogers.

[01:14:07] Not necessarily Captain America. And it's also a chaste romance. Like there's no big kiss scene. It's the way people like to think romances were in the 1940s. But probably weren't. Yeah. But you know it's kind of that rose colored glasses thing. But it's very effective. And ultimately when you get to Captain America in the modern day at the end. In that scene that feels a little tacked on. But probably was necessary. It's one of the things I had an issue with. Like the whole.

[01:14:35] It's a tying up to Avengers film scene. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of like the dynamic of it. Where he's waking up in this recreation of a World War II recovery room. I like that. But yeah. It kind of removes the emotional impact. But I do like that moment where he says. You know. I had a date. And you're like. Oh. This guy. He just snapped to. After. For him. Seconds probably. In his mind. And all of that's been torn away. All that potential and promise is gone. Yeah.

[01:15:06] You feel that heartbreak. We've all lost love at some point in our lives. And we can put ourselves in that position. That's. It. It's the perfect introduction to a character. Like I just. I just can't keep putting enough praise in this film. And I'll add another one on. It might seem like a silly thing. A little thing. And I had my trouble with like the green screen in the background of this film. But one thing that does not let down. Is the costuming. I was going to basically combine costuming and design. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. We can put it all in.

[01:15:35] Because like the design of all the Hydra soldiers and their weapons and stuff like that. Designing of Captain America's suits. Yeah. Like it is all very good. Like I. It's. They managed to do the period setting well. They managed to also put Captain America in that period setting. And make it seem like it fits. And also put all these like high tech Hydra weapons in there too. And make them seem like they fit. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean I love the Hydra goon outfits. Like the ones that cover like their entire face. That looks so cool.

[01:16:04] There's that flamethrower Hydra goon that looks awesome. And the Captain America costume. I remember before the movie came out being like how are they going to make that look cool? It's one thing to make Iron Man look cool. I mean Thor. It's a suit of armor to a degree. It's doable. It's a suit of armor to a degree. But I remember thinking like Captain America. I mean that is not a Spider-Man costume. That can look really silly with the wings on the head. The colors. Like okay.

[01:16:34] And I remember the first time they released an image of it. Uh-huh. And it had the like helmet look and everything. I was like that looks awesome. They nailed it. They made it look really cool. And it's still completely confounding to me. How they completely dropped the ball with the first Avengers film. What with the costume he goes to in that one. Yeah. Which looks like a complete joke. And I'm like what? Like what? How does that happen?

[01:16:58] And they ultimately went back to the World War II era look in future Captain America movies. I don't think it ever jumped out to me in the Avengers film. I'll have to go back and look. Is it a bit sort of more pajama style or? I just remember everyone ridiculing it. Like the helmet looked silly. Really? None of it looked good. Yeah. Okay. All right. I don't remember that but I'll take your word for it. Is there any other likes you want to bring up? There's a few. The musical number I think is great.

[01:17:27] The Star Spangled Man with the Plan musical number. I wish Marvel injected more moments like this. Because it just it's so much fun. It's incredibly well thought out. The music is really catchy which is something that does not happen in Marvel movies. Usually the music is very forgettable. And I like the way it recreates the first Captain America comic book. Of him punching out Hitler. Yeah. And then you get him staging that over and over again. You see the comic books. The recreations of Captain America number one being handed out.

[01:17:57] I like the way it is really in terms of kind of the design of that world. Paying homage to those old comic books. And just making it feel like kind of that retro sci-fi fun. Where it's like this is the future set in the 1940s. Because this is not what the 1940s look like. No. But it all completely works. Like I just think on a design level. It's more impressive than a lot of the Marvel movies that I think have come after. Where there's often kind of a generic feel.

[01:18:27] Like tell me about the design work of Ant-Man and the Wasp. And you'll be like uh well. Apart from their suits maybe. I couldn't tell you anything. Yeah. Yeah. Or like Quantumania. Like it's just a messy messy sci-fi universe with no real logic to it. Whereas every bit of this. I mean it's Joe Johnston directing it. He's someone who worked on Star Wars. He knows how to make all this stuff feel cool. But also grounded within the world and the story he's telling.

[01:18:55] Well I think it also like helps him that he has done some period piece films before. Yeah. And I think he's taken a lot of those lessons and channeled them into this. This film for me feels a little bit like a redo of The Rocketeer. Like he wants to make good on it. Because it didn't do well The Rocketeer. No. And it was meant to have sequels. It was meant to have all this sort of stuff. And like I imagine that probably hung over him a little bit. Because I know he poured his heart and soul into that film. And this is sort of his chance to go and paint that canvas again.

[01:19:25] With a bit more money and a bigger cast. And a tie to this whole universe. I just I feel that love coming through in this film. He knows how to do a period setting. He knows how to make it believable. And there's this word that's like sticking in my head. And I think it was something to do. I mean it's a word that existed. But it was used when they were making Superman. And that is verisimilitude. Right. Which is about making it feel like it belongs. And that despite it being wacky super serum film.

[01:19:53] And the baddie is a guy with his face melted off. It somehow sticks its landing in making it feel like it is something that you could invest in. Like there are a lot of people that don't like comic book films or science fiction films. Because they feel too outlandish. I think this would work for those people. Yeah I mean I think Joe Johnson is also a good director with an eye. Sure. Which is something that's been lost in a lot of Marvel movies. Where they hire just kind of people who come off one small film. And don't necessarily have that visual confidence.

[01:20:24] But you look at like when the Red Skull roars in in his giant car. And it's like the you know the front of the car is at the very like forefront of the frame. And it makes the car look super super long. Like things like that are really cool. Like those are shots that you could put on a wall. And they would stand out. Or I think of also Howard Stark. Yeah. Dominic Cooper's character. Who I think is actually really good in this movie. But has the moment where. It's probably his best role that I've ever seen him in. Right. Yeah.

[01:20:51] And he has the moment where it's going through the experiment to create Captain America. Another. That's all like right there. The entire experiment scene is fantastic. Yeah. But it's him like pulling down the shades. And looking to the side. Basically at the capsule. And it's like that shot. I will never forget it. It's just Joe Johnson knows how to make a good looking movie. Even though he doesn't necessarily know how to work with CG that well.

[01:21:14] I think he knows how to like frame you know his real world props cars and actors really well. Yeah. I think he got as much out of this film as it was possible to have. I mean they had to rely on green screen. I don't think there was any way around that. And there's a lot of like a lot of it is shot in London. Yeah. I mean when I was watching the Antarctica stuff at the start of the movie. I'm just like well this is clearly a green screen. And that it does bug me.

[01:21:43] It just and that's something that like this was an early step of that. But like we're going to see so many more Marvel movies in the future that have the same look. But this one to me like does not compare against a lot of the other movies released this year. Like it looks cheap. Yeah. I know you can lamp on Quantum Mania. And quite rightly so. It's a mess. Visual mess of a film. But I think the CG looks better in that than it does here. Yeah. I mean I remember the Thor CG was a little shaky too. But I think like Iron Man looks better than this movie.

[01:22:12] And Iron Man 2 as well. Yeah. I could believe that. I think they rely more on actual locations for Iron Man. So maybe that helps. I think of that scene in Iron Man 2 which is not a very good movie. But with Whiplash at the car race. The F1. Yeah. Like that was really well done. Yeah. That's a great scene. Great action scene. And that's something that this film does lack a little bit. Is sort of. I mean I think the rescue of Bucky and the team is pretty good.

[01:22:42] Yes. I agree. Yeah. That's probably the standout action scene which is unfortunately in the first half. Yeah. I mean you could sort of. I mean the scene right at the end where he's going onto the airplane. Whatever that thing is called. Yeah. Feels like a warm up act for what he would do I think in the Avengers. Is it Captain America Winter Soldier where he's storming onto the. It's Winter Soldier when he's on the air bases things when he's doing all that. Yeah.

[01:23:12] That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And of course having the giant flying V is very Raiders of the Lost Ark because you've got the viewing there as well. The fight in the desert. There's a number of nods to Raiders because when the guy goes into the propeller and gets chopped up and you get the blood spray that's from Raiders. Right. Right.

[01:23:29] Also you have a line at the start where I think it is Red Skull says something like you know Hitler's out in the desert digging for trinkets and that is referring to the events of Raiders of the Lost Ark as well. Ah. I didn't pick up on that being the reference. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're looking at you know for the Ark of the Covenant. See. Okay. Any other likes from you Cam?

[01:23:58] I don't think so. I think that kind of sums it up and the thing is there's a lot of positives that we've covered there. You know design a lot of supporting cast is very strong. Chris Evans is incredible. So like I think that really does kind of cover the things that click with me when I watch it. The only thing I have to add is I'm very glad that Neil McDonough only gets about five minutes of screen time. Oof. Don't at me Neil McDonough.

[01:24:25] We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Red Alert SpyHards. We are shaking things up over on the Patreon page. That's right. We are launching an exclusive new show where we tackle the exploits of the small screen's greatest secret agents like Jack Bauer, George Smiley and beyond.

[01:24:45] And don't forget every month you also get two agents in the field episodes where we decode the adventures of your favorite spy actors in their biggest non-spy movies. But Cam tell the people what we have coming up next. Cue up the Rammstein and Nine Inch Nails because this week we are going to continue our tribute to David Lynch by tackling 1997's Lost Highway starring Bill Pullman and Patricia Arquette.

[01:25:13] Is this moody drive as memorable as we remember? Or is the way we remember it not necessarily the way it happened? Find out. So strap on your Condor Man wings and soar into the future with us over at patreon.com slash spyhards. But before Big O zaps us with a red pulsating laser, let's get back to the spy jinx. Okay, it sounds like there's a couple of dislikes to tackle before we wrap things up here. Cam, what do you have?

[01:25:41] So I've talked enough about the CG elements and the action stuff. Red Skull to me was a character that I was excited to see on the big screen. He looks great. I think the red design of the face looks pretty effective in makeup. I agree. But there's just, there's nothing here. And every time they would just cut to Red Skull and, you know, Toby Jones' character just talking about their plans or whatever, I just was like, this doesn't really work for me.

[01:26:10] And I think maybe it really was hurt coming after Loki in particular, who managed to create a character that's kind of, Marvel early on would do these things where it was in their origin stories, the villain very much mirrored the main character. Because you had Iron Monger in the first Iron Man. You had Abomination in the Hulk. You had Loki in Thor.

[01:26:35] And then you've got, you know, the German super soldier character, Red Skull opposite Captain America. But it almost feels like they got lazy and were like, okay, audiences get it. It's the mirror image. We don't have to do any work. And it doesn't feel like they did. Like, they were kind of, like, happy to leave Hugo Weaving out to dry with an accent. Like, let him have fun with his accent and, you know, the outfit and all that sort of thing. But we're not going to write him anything that compelling beyond just being, like, a boo-hiss villain.

[01:27:05] And he's not energetic enough or strong enough, I think, to really carry you through the movie. I think his best moment is probably when he gets hit in the face and his, you know, human mask is slightly offset. Yeah. And you've got the red under the eye. Like, that's really unsettling body horror. Like, it really works. But once he's just driving around and hissing over Captain America's success, it just really loses me. And so that is a bummer because I really love villains.

[01:27:35] And my favorite examples of superhero movies tend to have very strong villains. And this is a case where it just didn't quite work. I think it works a little bit for me because I think Hugo Weaving is such a strong actor. That despite there not being much for him to work with, he is able to bring some menace to the performance. It's not like it's a flat performance. Right. I think it's just a flat character that's been written for him.

[01:28:00] But when I think about what this character should be, I often think about Jeremy Irons in Dungeons & Dragons. Oh my god! Now, I know that's going up to 11. Yeah. But, like, if Red Skull is a 5 and Jeremy Irons is 11, I was hoping for, like, a 9. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. He had every opportunity to sell it to the back of the room. And he didn't. He underplays it at times, which is an actor's choice, I'm sure.

[01:28:30] And, you know, Hugo Weaving by this point had done The Matrix and Lord of the Rings and everything. He had plenty of opportunity to be like, no, I want to play it this way. And he did. But, yeah, I think there was a lot left on the page for the Red Skull. Where do you stand on Mickey Rourke's whiplash? I can't stand it. Really? See, I've always kind of liked how he really just went crazy with it. I mean, I know I'm eating my own words there, but I... That's interesting.

[01:28:59] He needs more to do. I think what he's got is he's memorable. He is memorable, but he has not a lot of screen time. No. What's the other villain? Sam Rockwell, right? Yeah, Sam Rockwell, who's also fun. It's kind of like you have two fun actors doing wacky things, but they dilute each other by screen time. That classic Spider-Man 3 thing by putting a bunch of villains in and making it... None of them work, basically. But at least in those Batman films, they were like, the villains are the show.

[01:29:29] Whereas with Marvel, they were like, no, no. It's not the villains who are the show. It's the hero who is. But that's fine when you've kind of got a single villain, like Iron Monger in Iron Man. That works. Yeah. But when you suddenly divide it up, like you do in Iron Man 2, it's just there's not a lot of screen time for the villains as it is. And then they're splitting it in half. And I think, honestly, that was probably their attitude with Red Skull. They're like, we are so focused on getting the main character correct because he's got to do other films. Yeah.

[01:29:59] And we want the dynamic with Peggy Carter to also really click. The villain? He's over there. He's in a warehouse just kind of muttering. Who have we got? Red? Red helmet? Skull. Oh, Red Skull. Yeah. Whatever. Okay. And that's it. That was the thought process. Yeah. Yeah. I did like the way they danced around the Nazi connections where they're like, he's like, oh, I want nothing to do with Hitler. Hitler doesn't understand me at all. And you're like, oh, smart movie. Smart.

[01:30:29] Get as far away from that party as you can. Exactly. Yeah. That did make me laugh. Films these days seem to fall over themselves to get away from that connection, despite history being history. Yeah. And it's also like, you know, Red Skull. Come on. This is not a guy with pure ideals. Come on. I could be the Green Skull too. No, you can't, brother. You're from the Nazi party. You're not a good guy.

[01:30:55] I have a hard time believing that it was all about the science for Red Skull. Yeah. He wasn't trying to help mankind. Don't think so. Don't think so. No, no. The only other thing I had left in dislikes, it wasn't a long section for me, is I don't think this is a personal thing. Particularly, I couldn't care all that much. But it was interesting how like they, in the trailers, they featured like the howling commandos a bunch and you'd see them in like walking in the door and stuff like that and shooting around.

[01:31:23] They're in the film for, like I said, no, we've done it for five minutes. It's weird that you do all that to cast these people and then not use them. Yeah. Yeah. They really don't contribute a whole lot other than being recognizable faces in battle scenes. It's kind of like the Warriors 3 in the Thor films, actually. That was going to be my point is he did the exact same thing in Thor and then they tried to rectify, I think, in the second one or the third one. They killed them all pretty quickly in the third one. Doesn't Zachary Levi play one of them in one of the films? In the second one.

[01:31:52] In the second one. Yeah. And then I think Sif comes back in the fourth one? Sif gets more to do, but I feel like, was it this? Oh boy. I think it was the second Thor that even like split up the Warriors 3 and you only got like brief shots of one of them at least. Right. It was, yeah, weird. Yeah, I don't think they know what to do with that one. It was odd. But that leads me into my other thing, which I think is a good and a bad is you do a lot of things setting up Bucky Barnes, obviously setting it up for the future.

[01:32:21] And this is more my issue with like setting things up for the future. Yeah. The character's written off and presumably dead and we find out later he becomes the Winter Soldier. And we all like where Bucky Barnes goes down the road. I don't feel like he's served particularly well in this film. No, that was something I noted. And I remember at the time there was actual concern coming out of this movie for fans. I don't think the general public thought about it twice, but for fans going, you're going to have this guy play the Winter Soldier? Yeah.

[01:32:49] Like there was not a lot of charisma coming off of Sebastian Stan in this movie. He seems quite meek comparatively to how he sort of like just transformed in later films. Yeah. Like I think he's great in Winter Soldier and a lot of his recent work has been fantastic. You know, The Apprentice, he's incredible in. He's a good actor for sure, but he doesn't feel very confident in this movie. And his death is a real like shoulder shrug of a moment. Yeah.

[01:33:19] Like you can see it hitting Cap, but I don't think I was particularly hit by it. No. And I think that is one of the movie's issues is like they give you a couple scenes with Bucky, but he's pretty one dimensional. And then they expect you to care about a death that I just don't like that entire action scene on the train. I find it pretty blah. Yeah. Not memorable for sure. Well, let's go to final notes then before we hit the knock list. Quick question, Cam. Yes? This or The Rocketeer?

[01:33:48] Um, I think I would probably choose The Rocketeer by a hair. I think I would too. Yeah. I think like the Rocketeer's issues were the hero character was a little watery. Billy Campbell. Yeah. Yeah. Not the performance, but just like the way they were kind of writing the character. Yeah. I think it was a little, didn't quite click to the degree that this movie does. Like this movie kind of perfects the hero.

[01:34:15] So Joe Johnson got to, you know, correct that aspect of The Rocketeer. But I think all the other elements I think are probably better in The Rocketeer. The villain's stronger. Dalton as the Nazi spy. Great. And Lothar. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lothar's great. Um, I guess with Jennifer Connelly versus Hayley Atwell, in terms of those performances, I think they're probably pretty even keeled. I'll take both. Thanks. I mean. No questions. No questions, uh, coming to you. No.

[01:34:47] Um, I had a question for you actually as well, which is more, I mean, you've stated you're not a big comic book Captain America guy, but you're familiar with the Red Skull. We've spoken about you're not liking that. But do you think from what your knowledge of comic books is, this is a pretty good representation of Captain America and his accoutrement? I would say so, yeah. I think they did a really good job translating the character of that time period. And when you get to Winter Soldier, that's going to translate more of the Captain America

[01:35:17] of closer to the modern day. Uh, and same with Civil War. Um, so yeah, I think if you're going to look at those 1940s comics that I, while I haven't, you know, read a lot of Captain America, I have a couple of the Marvel Masterworks editions of the, um, the, the first handful of Captain America comics. They aren't the most readable in the way a lot of 1940s comics are. They're pretty simple.

[01:35:42] But, um, they definitely have great design to them and the character stuff, like in terms of establishing their characters, they're really effective. Fair enough. I've got one note left, but I'll save it to the end. What do you have for us? We have a scene of an elderly lady with a machine gun. I've got, that was my note! Yeah, which we've seen, of course. That was my note! That's acknowledgement, right? It's Goldfinger, but it's also the Avengers, but... Yeah. Uh, yeah, I, I, that's my other note, was old lady with a machine gun. That has to be a reference to Goldfinger.

[01:36:12] There's no way it isn't. Well, it's all the spy stuff too, like the coming, it's like the man from uncle thing, they're going into a shop and then they go into the secret thing at the back. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I, I, I'd say so. And I like that kind of, uh, subterfuge of the, like, uh, storefront and how it has that kitschy kind of period look to it. It's like an antique store, wasn't it? Or a bookstore or something? It was a bookstore. Yeah, something like that, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. I loved that. I, I, I, I popped for old lady with a machine gun.

[01:36:43] Uh, what notes do I have? So, I really like the moment where you have Captain America, it's during the montage showing his, um, his tour, um, and his, uh, you know, VSO shows and all that sort of thing, the Bond material, but you see him in serials. And I really like that where you see, like, the black and white film of him, you know, having very cartoony adventures on the big screen. Uh, that sort of stuff, that's the kind of detail that, again, it's only the first half.

[01:37:10] Everything I'm talking about is the first half of the movie is where the movie's having the most fun. And that's the stuff I'm really, like, locked in on. We have a Wilhelm scream, which is very appropriate to the era, or not necessarily 1940s movies, but to, uh, action movies made later set in the 1940s, uh, that would feature that. Things like that. Yep. Yep. Yep. So I enjoyed that. Um, I always found the Red Skull's, quote unquote, death in this movie, very unsatisfying. I remember feeling that the first time I saw the movie, because like, you want that Raiders

[01:37:40] of the Lost Ark, and it is a Raiders of the Lost Ark knockoff moment, right? Where... Yeah, that's what they're going for. Yeah. And I remember, like, the impact of those Indiana Jones movies when that happened. And this one in the theater being like, oh my God, here we go. He's holding the cosmic cube. What's going to happen? And going, oh. Yeah. And I think it may be, hmm, this is maybe a debate. Is it less effective than Cate Blanchett's show me everything in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? Oh. Uh. Uh. It burns out her eyes.

[01:38:09] Yeah, at least you get that. Like, at least it goes for a little bit of the gore factor. This is just a, he gets teleported or whatever. Yeah, like, the Cate Blanchett one's a little visceral. The CG is wonky as hell, but like, at least it's a little visceral. It's also in a very blurry scene. Isn't that the hurricane, the ship taking off at that point as well? Like, isn't it all going a bit nuts? That's... Or is that just afterwards? The room is going nuts, I... Yeah, the room is going nuts. With like the chairs and stuff, right? Where the aliens are sat. I think that's afterwards. Uh, okay, fine. Well, anyway, yes.

[01:38:38] I think Cate Blanchett narrowly scrapes by. Yeah. Um, so that was, that was a disappointment to me because I appreciate a good villain death in a movie like this. And, uh, Timothy Dalton's death was great, as was Lothar's in The Rocketeer. For sure. Um, lastly, the score for this movie stinks. Wow, okay. It really does. The Ellen Silvestri score, um, this has been a Marvel problem, uh, for a long time.

[01:39:04] But you look at those early days, the score for like the first Iron Man is almost atrocious. Uh, I don't even remember the score to Iron Man 2. Like Goldeneye level atrocious? Um, it might be. But the thing about Goldeneye is it's more memorable. The Iron Man one is like wallpaper, but it's like bad wallpaper. Um, the Hulk score's not bad. The Thor score was probably the high point at this time period of the Marvel era. But like the Captain America one is so indistinct.

[01:39:34] Like, I just think like this is a character of any character demanding a big bombastic hero theme. And it's got nothing. Well, you think of John Williams Superman. Yeah. Like that is. Given the time period, he should have that theme. You don't have to have that for Iron Man or whatever, where you want to go a little more modern era, a little more quote-unquote real world. But in terms of this movie, there should be like a big triumphant Captain America score.

[01:40:04] Yeah, I'm surprised. I mean, he does have a theme though, doesn't he? Because that's used again and again, right? There's a Captain America theme. Can you hum it? No. Yeah, me neither. And how many times have you heard it? I know the Avengers one. That's about it, I think. Yeah. And like, I know the Avengers one. But like, I've heard the Captain America one in how many movies? Like three Captain America films and probably... Three and some other appearances in Avengers films, probably. Exactly. And I could not even tell you what it is. I mean, it's an interesting discussion to have.

[01:40:33] Is this the most ineffective of the MCU scores? I mean, there's some bad ones to come, but this one is frustrating. Because if ever there was a Marvel movie demanding, like really memorable sweeping score, it's this one. A full-on brassy, like, wah score. Like it's this one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like the musical number in the movie, which is so great. Like, bring some of that energy to the rest of the music. Last question for you, and we'll take us out with the knock list.

[01:41:00] Is this, and if not what is, the best Marvel origin film? I mean, I think clearly the answer is Eternals. I just don't think there's... It was so successful they felt no need to tell any other stories. There's no other story to tell other than that origin story. It's a tough question, because like, I look at the setup of like Black Panther and Civil War, which is fantastic, or the Guardians of the Galaxy, which that's not really an origin story, though.

[01:41:30] That's just kind of bringing a team together. I'm thinking more of like... Well, it's how they came together, though, isn't it? Like, that is their origin story. And I would say Black Panther is really the Black Panther's origin story. Yeah, yeah. So like, I think those are effective. But I might come down on the original Iron Man. I think it's done really well. It started all of this, didn't it? Like, it is the catalyst for everything that came afterwards. Like, I look at the weight they put into that, of him in the cave,

[01:41:57] and the body horror of, you know, creating the hole, basically, in his heart. And all that stuff really sticks with me. I think this Captain America one is well done. It's definitely well done. And it's better handled than Thor, in terms of a character setup. And it's definitely more successful than like Ant-Man, or some of the other modern heroes. Shang-Chi. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:42:27] So I would say that I would go with Iron Man being number one. But this is not a, it's not many steps down on the ladder. If we're discarding the Guardians. Yeah. Because it's an ensemble piece, and like, they're kind of already, like Drax is already Drax, and Gamora's already Gamora. Yeah. I'm leaning towards, I think, Black Panther. Such an impactful film, though. That one kind of tiptoes around an origin story, but. Well, it does tell you how he becomes the Black Panther.

[01:42:57] His dad, and like, it's all there. But it doesn't commit the way that like this movie does, or like the original Sam Raimi's Spider-Man does, where it's like, we're going to spend the first like 45 minutes guiding you through that origin story. Like Black Panther is more dancing around it and showing it in flashback moments. I think I found Black Panther as impactful as this film. Oh, I would agree. And I think, you know, had Chadwick Boseman not passed away at an untimely age, you would

[01:43:23] have seen him take on the mantle, not literally of Captain America, but within that. Like a leader. Yeah, playing that role within Marvel Cinematic Universe. Yeah, I think that's a certainty. Yeah. For sure. Okay, well, it's not this time. We haven't really spoken too much about the spy connections in this film, because there isn't that many. No, we've got the German spy, as I said, and Hayley Atwell's character. Yeah. There are elements, as there were in The Rocketeer. No.

[01:43:50] But it leads us on to bigger and spy-ier things. It does, yeah. With Winter Soldier, for sure. Exactly. But is Captain America The First Avenger making the list of the best spy movies of all time? Let's find out. Cam, your vote? No, this is not making the list for me. The spy elements are not strong enough, and I thought The Rocketeer was like a great adventure film that just lacked the spy elements to get it across the line.

[01:44:17] This is a good adventure film with not enough spy elements to get it across the line. I actually couldn't have said it better myself. I think there's stuff to enjoy here if you haven't seen the film. I think it's a film worth checking out. But is it even an okay spy film? No, not in the slightest. It has elements, and I think it will lead us in the right direction. Moving forward, I think it's an important discussion to have, and I think it informs our Winter Soldier chat that we'll have down the line as well. And it is a good film to watch. Don't get me wrong. Like, I had fun.

[01:44:47] The two hours flew by. I think it's very well paced, by the way. Nice amount of time. It's like, yeah, two hours, five minutes, but those credits are pretty long. Get us out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a no from me. And as such, that's two no's. Captain America The First Avenger is not making the not clearest. The dossier on the film is complete and filed as classified. Cam, it's that question that you hate to get because you're never prepared to answer it, that you're scrabbling onto our list of films to find the answer right now, and

[01:45:15] so I'm talking longer so you can get your answer. What are we talking about next week? Well, Scott, I think we've had a lot of fun tackling the 2011 depiction of World War II, but we're going to go back to the actual World War II era and look at a Spy Hard special, the 1943 James Mason espionage thriller Candlelight in Algeria. I mean, I would argue the toss that this isn't a Spy Hard special, seeing as this one has had

[01:45:42] actual, like, DVD releases that are official. That's fair, but it is a YouTube special, so you can watch it on YouTube, and once it's free to watch on YouTube, I consider it a Spy Hard special. That is a fair point. So, folks, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to grab your wicks, and I mean wicks as in candle wicks, not John Wick, and join us on a journey to a mystical land of

[01:46:06] Algeria, where we take a look at James Mason's 1943 spy thriller Candlelight in Algeria. Will these candles be as sacred as the ones in Matahari? We'll find out. Oh, that's a reference I have not heard in a very long time. Dig into those archives, people. Yes, there are indeed many treasures to be found in the Spy Hard's archives. Something all for you to do as homework as well.

[01:46:33] If you like what you heard on this podcast, as usual, please consider subscribing to us on Patreon. No, seriously. We appreciate everyone that's joined us already on Patreon. You're helping keep the lights on here at Spy Hard's HQ. And boy, do we have a lot of lights. We do. It's a big warehouse. Empty warehouse like you see in this film, but it's not green screen, folks. It's a real warehouse with a lot of bulbs, and Cam is constantly walking around the warehouse with a ladder changing the bulbs. How many cams does it take to change a bulb?

[01:47:03] Well, we're finding out. Everyone on the Patreon already knows the answer to that question, but you won't know until you come and join us. So patreon.com slash spyhards. Come and find out more. Over 100 bonus episodes you can find there. And let's continue the discussion online. Why not, folks? Social media is a thing. I don't hate it sometimes, but most of the time. And we're on Blue Sky now as well. We're adopting new technology. Look, we can advance with the kids. You know, we're hip. We're cool. We are. We are. We are.

[01:47:32] We are the star-spangled men with the plan. And I'm, well, yes, we certainly are. I've never been called star-spangled in my life. I'll take it. Thank you, Cam. I don't know how to give you our Blue Sky account. I don't know how their names work, but we're at SpyHards because I managed to get that everywhere. So come and join us on Blue Sky. That's actually the thing I'm most active on at the moment. Or we've got our Facebook group as well. You can come follow us on Facebook. A lot of discussion about spy movies on there as well. So, yeah, at SpyHards wherever one might social media.

[01:48:02] But until next week, folks, you'll find me outside the Marvel Studios office petitioning for the role of Captain Britain.