David Henry Hwang on M. Butterfly - SpyMaster Interview #87

[00:00:36] And welcome to SpyHards Podcast, I'm Agent Scott

[00:00:39] And I'm Cam the Provocateur, taking his rightful role in the accounting department of the intelligence agency

[00:00:45] It's where you belong, I say

[00:00:47] Right, just give me like a calculator and that's probably about as much as I can aspire to

[00:00:53] And let's be honest, you're hidden away in an office there and we both have faces for podcasting

[00:00:57] Scott, they won't even let me use sharpened pencils, like, come on

[00:01:01] I'm not sure it's an accountant's office you actually work at mate, do you wear a white coat that's tied together in the middle?

[00:01:08] No

[00:01:09] Okay, okay

[00:01:10] Now I promised you all a very special interview, this one came to us last minute

[00:01:14] But Cam and I both love 1993's David Cronenberg film, M. Butterfly

[00:01:19] We spoke about it a while ago and I would urge listeners, if you haven't heard that review

[00:01:24] I would click on the link in the show notes below and go back and listen to that review if you get a chance

[00:01:29] either before this interview or afterwards, to hear our thoughts on M. Butterfly and talk about it as part of David Cronenberg's

[00:01:35] oeuvre or filmography or whatever you'd like to say

[00:01:38] But we are talking to a very special person behind that film, Cam, who are we talking to today?

[00:01:43] Yes, we are talking to Tony Award winner David Henry Huang

[00:01:49] who masterminded the play M. Butterfly and then also wrote the screenplay for the David Cronenberg version

[00:01:55] And so there's a lot of depth here and a lot to mine just in terms of the origins of the story

[00:02:01] and then the evolution into a film

[00:02:05] Absolutely

[00:02:05] David was very generous with his time

[00:02:08] He's taken us on a whistle-stop tour through the production of M. Butterfly from, you know, from play to screenplay as it were

[00:02:15] So I think without further ado Cam, let's get to it, roll the interview

[00:02:22] And joining us now on the show, he is a Tony Award winning playwright

[00:02:27] The screenwriter of 1993 spy film M. Butterfly

[00:02:31] And his critically acclaimed play Yellow Face is currently playing on Broadway at the Todd Haymes Theatre

[00:02:37] It is Mr. David Henry Huang

[00:02:39] Hello sir, how are you?

[00:02:40] Hey, I'm really well, thank you

[00:02:42] It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show

[00:02:45] We tried to get this one together when we tackled M. Butterfly about a year ago now

[00:02:50] And we're glad it's finally happening because it's a film Cam and I really love

[00:02:54] So much so that we put it on the list of must-see spy films of all time

[00:02:58] Which is...

[00:03:00] Thank you

[00:03:00] For us, that's high praise

[00:03:02] It doesn't mean anything to anyone else

[00:03:04] I appreciate it, so thanks

[00:03:08] But let's sort of get into M. Butterfly slowly but surely

[00:03:12] And I think the first question is sort of leading more towards the play than the film

[00:03:16] And getting us to that point, I mean your job mainly is as a playwright

[00:03:20] And that's sort of what you've won your awards for

[00:03:23] We spoke about that now

[00:03:24] Obviously you've got a play going on at the moment

[00:03:26] What brought you into wanting to be a playwright in the first place?

[00:03:28] How did that journey start for you?

[00:03:32] Oh, you know, I got...

[00:03:34] I was a musician

[00:03:35] So I played in pit orchestras and you know, high school musicals

[00:03:41] And I found that I always liked kind of hanging out afterwards

[00:03:46] When the orchestra had been dismissed

[00:03:49] To listen to the director give notes

[00:03:52] So there was something that attracted me to theatre

[00:03:54] But I really didn't grow up in a theatre family or anything like that

[00:03:58] Then when I got to college

[00:03:59] They gave us this form that said

[00:04:01] What do you want to do that you haven't tried before?

[00:04:04] And I wrote playwriting and journalism

[00:04:09] And I went to Stanford

[00:04:11] And Stanford at the time didn't have any playwriting classes

[00:04:14] So I just started writing them in my spare time

[00:04:16] And I found a professor who was willing to take a look at them

[00:04:19] He told me they were really bad, which they were

[00:04:21] And that my problem was that I wanted to write plays

[00:04:24] But I didn't actually know anything about the theatre

[00:04:26] But the same professor was a good guy

[00:04:28] He helped me design a playwriting major

[00:04:31] Within the creative writing English department

[00:04:35] And I basically saw as many plays

[00:04:37] And read as many plays as I could for the next couple of years

[00:04:40] My senior year I wrote a play to be done in my dorm

[00:04:44] And 14 months later through a variety of fortuitous circumstances

[00:04:48] It opened off-Broadway at the Public Theatre in New York

[00:04:52] And then I started to have a career

[00:04:54] Wow, and you worked with Sam Shepard for a period

[00:04:58] Yes

[00:04:58] Is that correct?

[00:04:59] So the summer between my junior and senior years

[00:05:03] I saw an ad in the

[00:05:05] I'm from Los Angeles

[00:05:06] In the LA Times

[00:05:07] That said study playwriting with Sam Shepard

[00:05:10] And I clipped this thing and sent it in

[00:05:12] And it was the first year of what eventually became a pretty prominent event

[00:05:17] In Southern California theatre

[00:05:18] But this was only the first year that they ever tried to do it

[00:05:21] So there were only two of us that applied

[00:05:23] So we both got in

[00:05:25] And I got to study with Sam

[00:05:27] And another fantastic playwright teacher

[00:05:31] Maria Irene Fornez

[00:05:33] And I feel like that's really where I learned to write plays

[00:05:35] And where I started writing that play

[00:05:37] That would become my dorm play

[00:05:38] That would become my first off-Broadway play

[00:05:41] Do you remember any of the key lessons you gained there?

[00:05:45] That were like kind of what you overcame to get to that point?

[00:05:49] I think it's a lot about learning to write more from your subconscious

[00:05:54] Learning to follow your gut, your impulse, your heart

[00:05:58] Instead of your conscious mind

[00:06:01] Which is more likely to tell you

[00:06:04] Well, you can't write about that

[00:06:05] That's not really a play

[00:06:06] Who do you think you are?

[00:06:08] Nobody's going to care about this

[00:06:09] And to bypass that stuff

[00:06:11] And you know what David Burnham talking heads used to be

[00:06:16] Stop making sense

[00:06:17] Like don't necessarily try to make sense all the time

[00:06:22] Write what you feel

[00:06:23] And that's what I learned

[00:06:25] And you know, we're skipping over huge sections of your history

[00:06:30] By jumping to this next question

[00:06:31] But I want to dive into sort of the roots of M. Butterfly

[00:06:35] And of course it started as a play

[00:06:38] And obviously you won Tony Walton

[00:06:39] We'll get to that

[00:06:40] But where did that first concept of M. Butterfly come from?

[00:06:44] Where did that sort of blossom from?

[00:06:45] Yeah, so I was at a cocktail party

[00:06:47] And it's you know, the sort of story one would hear at a cocktail party

[00:06:51] You know, did you hear about the French diplomat who had a 20 year affair with a Chinese actress

[00:06:56] Who turned out to be A, a spy and B, a man

[00:07:00] And the diplomat claimed that he never knew the gender of his lover

[00:07:06] So I thought, well that's really interesting

[00:07:11] And so I tried to learn more about the actual case

[00:07:16] But this was in like 85

[00:07:18] And so of course it was pre-internet

[00:07:21] But also there just wasn't much access to even newspapers from France

[00:07:29] And I didn't read French anyway

[00:07:31] So I, there was like one column on page A26 of the New York Times

[00:07:37] And when I found I wasn't able to figure out more of the actual case

[00:07:44] I just sort of started making things up

[00:07:46] And that ended up working out

[00:07:49] Was there a freedom to that?

[00:07:51] That ability to not necessarily feel like you have that responsibility

[00:07:54] That someone might feel now to kind of just take it in your own direction?

[00:07:58] I think it was really

[00:08:00] I think it was the best thing that could have happened

[00:08:03] And then the interesting thing

[00:08:06] And perhaps that's, it says something about art

[00:08:08] Is that many of the things that I thought that I was making up turned out to be true

[00:08:13] And we can get to that later or not

[00:08:16] Oh, very nice

[00:08:17] And I was also going to ask what your relationship was with the opera Madama Butterfly

[00:08:22] Because obviously the play and the film are very critical of it

[00:08:25] And its kind of place

[00:08:27] I'm just curious

[00:08:27] Was this something you came across and instantly had a reaction?

[00:08:31] Or was it something that was built over time?

[00:08:32] Yeah, I didn't have any particular specific beef with M Butterfly

[00:08:37] With Madama Butterfly that I was aware of

[00:08:41] But I was sort of in the back of my consciousness

[00:08:45] As a kind of cultural stereotype of the submissive Asian woman

[00:08:50] And probably the primary trope

[00:08:55] Which created this template about East-West relationships

[00:09:01] And romances

[00:09:03] That you see repeated over and over again through the 20th century

[00:09:07] Whether it's in works like Shogun

[00:09:12] Or Miss Saigon

[00:09:19] That you have the kind of tragic Asian female heroine

[00:09:26] Who suffers a lot and then ends up dying

[00:09:31] For the love of a white man

[00:09:35] But again, it was just in the back of my mind

[00:09:38] So I was thinking about this story of the French diplomat

[00:09:42] And the Chinese spy for

[00:09:45] I thought I kind of just kept coming back to it for about a year

[00:09:50] And one day I asked myself

[00:09:52] Well, what did this diplomat think that he found?

[00:09:55] And the answer came to me

[00:09:56] Oh, he probably thought he'd found his version of Madame Butterfly

[00:09:59] And at that point I actually had never even heard the opera

[00:10:03] And we had record stores in those days

[00:10:06] I turned into a record store

[00:10:08] I bought it

[00:10:11] And fortunately the libretto ended up having everything

[00:10:15] That I thought it needed to have

[00:10:16] In order to use it as a sort of counterpoint

[00:10:21] And deconstruction for my play

[00:10:24] You know, one thing

[00:10:25] Obviously the reception to the play

[00:10:28] As I mentioned

[00:10:28] You win a Tony Award for Best Play

[00:10:32] Lauded and a beloved one now

[00:10:35] A play you've even revived years later

[00:10:37] And we'll come back to that in a bit

[00:10:39] But what did it really do for your career as a playwright at that point

[00:10:43] When it came out and the great reception it got?

[00:10:46] I mean, it was a sort of huge seismic event in my career as a playwright

[00:10:50] And it was probably still the defining event

[00:10:52] And still the play that most people know me for

[00:10:55] If they know me at all

[00:10:58] The, you know, to have a hit on Broadway

[00:11:03] And a hit play

[00:11:04] And a play that was sort of not only commercially successful

[00:11:08] But considered kind of serious and important

[00:11:14] Which ran on Broadway for two years

[00:11:16] Ran on the West End for a year

[00:11:17] Has been done in, I don't know

[00:11:19] Probably three or four dozen countries

[00:11:23] And as we're going to talk about

[00:11:25] Became a movie

[00:11:26] I mean, that just doesn't happen that often

[00:11:28] And it was probably the case that

[00:11:31] For a very, you know, brief period of time

[00:11:34] I was the, you know, the most successful American playwright

[00:11:40] And their time magazine at the time wrote that

[00:11:43] Oh, not since the heyday of Edward Albee

[00:11:47] So, yeah, it was a big event for my career, certainly

[00:11:51] I did have a question just about mounting that play

[00:11:54] Because the story is something of a critique of Western perceptions

[00:11:58] Of Eastern culture

[00:12:00] And you're creating this play that's going to be shown largely to Western audiences

[00:12:04] And just about walking that line between

[00:12:07] Being pretty, I think, sometimes harsh in your critique of the lead character

[00:12:11] But making that work for basically the ticket buying audience

[00:12:14] Yeah, it's, you never really know

[00:12:16] But I don't know that I'm smart enough to say

[00:12:19] I figured out how to, you know, exactly walk that line

[00:12:23] I wrote the play that I wanted to write

[00:12:25] And in fact, yes, the play was lauded and was a hit and everything

[00:12:30] But there was also a lot of critical voices

[00:12:32] I mean, I really, if you happen to go back to 1988

[00:12:37] And look at the reviews of M. Butterfly

[00:12:39] First of all, it got panned out of town

[00:12:41] We started in Washington, D.C.

[00:12:44] And one of the co-producers was David Geffen

[00:12:48] David was, Geffen had put up all the money

[00:12:51] And Geffen wanted to close the show

[00:12:53] He didn't want to bring us into New York

[00:12:54] And so his co-producer, Stuart Ostrow

[00:12:59] Who was really the person on the ground

[00:13:01] Stuart had to abrogate his production agreement

[00:13:04] With Geffen

[00:13:07] Mortgage his house

[00:13:08] And that's how he raised the money

[00:13:10] To get us to Broadway

[00:13:11] Where we opened with little to no

[00:13:14] Advanced sales

[00:13:16] And it's just one of those, you know, dramatic Broadway stories

[00:13:19] That happens to have had a happy ending

[00:13:21] What was sort of the turning point then?

[00:13:23] Because if it didn't have the biggest opening of Broadway originally

[00:13:25] What was that sort of, was it a review

[00:13:27] Or something that just clicked for everyone?

[00:13:30] I mean, winning the Tony, I think really

[00:13:34] Sealed our fate

[00:13:34] In those days, winning a Best Play Tony

[00:13:38] Probably meant more commercially than it even does today

[00:13:44] And Stuart also, I think, took a second mortgage on his house

[00:13:48] And then, um, made a, made a TV commercial

[00:13:52] Which also at that point was relatively rare for a play

[00:13:57] Oh, that's interesting because I remember growing up and seeing commercials for plays

[00:14:01] And that would have, I would have been seeing those after

[00:14:03] And Butterfly had become a success

[00:14:05] Probably, I mean, again, I don't, um, I'm sure you're

[00:14:09] You're probably the right age for that

[00:14:12] But I don't know your exact age, but yes

[00:14:14] I'm 43

[00:14:15] You don't have to say, okay, okay

[00:14:17] Yeah, yeah, I don't mind, I'm not shy about it

[00:14:20] Well, you know, you mentioned, um, David Geffen

[00:14:23] Which I think is a name we might come back to in a minute

[00:14:25] But, um, Cam and I don't profess to be particularly experts on, on plays or musicals

[00:14:31] Or Broadway or the West End, although I am right next to the West End

[00:14:33] So I do get there quite often

[00:14:34] But we are experts on spy movies

[00:14:37] Hmm, so let's, let's shift the pattern on the talk onto M Butterfly itself

[00:14:41] At what point during the run of the play did the concept of a film begin?

[00:14:47] Well, I actually think it started pretty early

[00:14:50] I mean, once it, once it became clear that the, um, that the show is going to be a hit

[00:14:59] Um, the idea, uh, that the film rights would have been sold, uh, seemed pretty much like, uh, that would happen

[00:15:08] And in fact, uh, even before we went into production with the Broadway show, uh, part of my contract was

[00:15:17] With Geffen was that he had a last right of refusal on the film rights

[00:15:21] Which, um, you know, once the show is a hit, he then exercised

[00:15:25] I mean, pretty logical of him, I think, uh, smell the way the wind's blowing

[00:15:29] Yes, yes

[00:15:31] Um, so, okay, so that's, so it's interesting to know that it comes up in sort of 1988

[00:15:36] The conversation begins there because there is a five-year gap between those two dates

[00:15:40] Obviously the release date in, in, uh, 1993

[00:15:43] So what's happening in that period of time?

[00:15:45] What are the conversations at the beginning?

[00:15:47] Because you're down as, as, uh, I think at that stage as writing, obviously, the adaptation

[00:15:51] David Gronenberg comes later on, which we'll get to that point

[00:15:54] But for you, um, were you approached by David Geffen to do a screenplay for this?

[00:15:59] How did that conversation begin?

[00:16:00] Um, I feel like the screenplay didn't happen until, uh, until David Gronenberg came on board

[00:16:12] So, in other words, there was the notion that, um, you know, Geffen exercised his option on the property, on the IP

[00:16:22] Um, but then the package needed to be put together

[00:16:26] Which I think makes a certain amount of sense

[00:16:28] Because for me to write the screenplay

[00:16:30] Uh, I've already wrote, written the play

[00:16:32] So we know what my take is on the material

[00:16:35] Um, and for me to write the screenplay without a director attached

[00:16:39] Uh, probably, you know, would have meant that I would have to have gone back in and, um, and, and made substantial changes

[00:16:49] Um, so there are really a few years of trying to figure out, okay, who was the, who would the director be?

[00:16:58] Um, and eventually, I switched agencies

[00:17:05] I went to a creative artist agency, um, and they represented, uh, both David and Jeremy Irons

[00:17:15] And, uh, who had, at that point, just done Dead Ringers

[00:17:22] And I think were looking for something else to do together

[00:17:25] And so that's kind of how this group came together

[00:17:29] Hmm, had you talked to any other directors before that happened?

[00:17:34] Um, just informally

[00:17:37] I mean, there was never anything

[00:17:40] Um, I'm trying to think, what can I say?

[00:17:45] Um

[00:17:47] That's always the question

[00:17:48] It's, it's been 30 years, you can say whatever you like

[00:17:50] Okay

[00:17:51] Um

[00:17:52] I won't tell anyone, it's okay

[00:17:53] Yeah, right

[00:17:54] Um, I mean, I did have some conversations with Neil Jordan

[00:17:58] Hmm

[00:18:00] Oh, right, okay

[00:18:02] It's interesting

[00:18:03] And you can read into that whatever you want, or not

[00:18:08] Hmm, hmm, okay, yeah

[00:18:11] Right

[00:18:11] I mean, that's an interesting thing as well

[00:18:13] Because, um, one thing we like to try and do with these interviews

[00:18:16] Especially with the screenwriters and directors

[00:18:18] Is set the record straight a lot of the time

[00:18:20] Because the Wikipedia page, for instance

[00:18:22] Reads slightly different to what we've already said

[00:18:24] In terms of events

[00:18:25] I've seen other directors' names attached to this

[00:18:28] I think Cam has a couple of names

[00:18:29] That were potentially around this project

[00:18:32] Um, that haven't come up in this discussion

[00:18:34] And also

[00:18:35] Wikipedia alludes to the fact that there was a script

[00:18:37] Before David Cronenberg even came along

[00:18:39] So that seems like that wasn't the case

[00:18:40] So I'm glad we're clearing that up

[00:18:43] Um, in your mind

[00:18:44] Were there

[00:18:45] Because obviously there was a period of time

[00:18:46] Where the package was being put together

[00:18:48] Did you visualize any directors you think would be good at handling the material?

[00:18:52] Obviously we had David Cronenberg

[00:18:53] But was there some people you thought might have been a good fit as well?

[00:18:55] Um, yeah, I had to

[00:18:57] Um, I was interested in Milos Forman

[00:19:02] Um, because

[00:19:04] To some extent the structure of M. Butterfly

[00:19:08] Is modeled

[00:19:12] Um, on some of the Peter Schaffer plays

[00:19:15] So that, them, the Peter Schaffer plays being Ecclus and Amadeus

[00:19:20] And Amadeus was of course made into a movie by Milos Forman

[00:19:24] Um, so he sort of seemed like a good fit to me

[00:19:28] Um

[00:19:30] And what, were there other directors that are mentioned in the, on the internet?

[00:19:34] I can say that the other two that are named are Warren Beatty and Roman Polanski

[00:19:40] Um

[00:19:42] I mean I did have one conversation with Warren Beatty

[00:19:45] I don't know that it ever went further than that

[00:19:48] Right

[00:19:48] And then

[00:19:51] There was a

[00:19:51] The idea for a while that Roman Polanski would direct M. Butterfly on stage in Paris

[00:19:59] Um

[00:20:00] Oh

[00:20:01] And then maybe, you know, have something to do with the movie

[00:20:05] But neither of those things ever happened

[00:20:07] So it's not untrue that those names came up

[00:20:11] But, um, I never, like I don't think I've ever spoken to Roman Polanski

[00:20:17] Oh okay, that's interesting

[00:20:18] Okay, the record is set straight there

[00:20:21] There we go

[00:20:21] Um

[00:20:23] Which kind of changes my next question

[00:20:24] But it's sort of in a good way

[00:20:26] Because it allows you to write this whole new chapter of the story of M. Butterfly in a sense

[00:20:30] Because, um, from what we learned in the past or had been told

[00:20:33] You'd written something before David Cronenberg showed up

[00:20:36] But as you said, it seemed more like a process after he'd arrived

[00:20:39] So, what were you sort of asked to do by David Geffen and company?

[00:20:44] Did you write the screenplay alone at first?

[00:20:45] Or was it a collaborative effort with David Cronenberg?

[00:20:48] I think I did write the screenplay alone at first

[00:20:51] And that's why there might be some confusion

[00:20:53] And maybe I'm wrong because it's been a while now

[00:20:56] Um, but there was a draft that I gave to David that David, um, had gave me notes on

[00:21:04] Um, and I think, I believe that was written when he was

[00:21:08] That first draft was written when he was already on board

[00:21:10] But I wrote it by myself

[00:21:12] But I guess it's possible that it was written before David came on board

[00:21:17] I'm not sure

[00:21:18] Um, I still think my version is right though

[00:21:21] Um, I'd take your word for it over Wikipedia any day

[00:21:24] Well, that said

[00:21:25] The, it seems like I wrote a really epic version

[00:21:30] Of a play that's pretty epic

[00:21:32] So, you know, you saw bombs falling over Vietnam and stuff like that

[00:21:37] And I just remember David's note being

[00:21:41] Um, um, this is, you know, this is a great draft

[00:21:46] But it's crazy

[00:21:47] It would cost 300 million dollars or something like that

[00:21:50] Um, and so, so that was when we started to kind of make it into a more, uh, practical, shootable, um, script

[00:22:03] Was it a difficult transition for you just going from writing plays to writing for film?

[00:22:08] Well, I'd done some work for film before, um, like a lot of playwrights

[00:22:15] Well, then and now, um, we often make our livings, um, in, in film and then film nowadays more television

[00:22:25] So, uh, it's not like I'd never written screenplays before

[00:22:28] Um, this was the first time I'd ever adapted one of my own pieces into a film

[00:22:34] So, in that respect, um, it was, uh, it was different

[00:22:40] But I think I probably, you know, when I think about, uh, planes and bombs falling on Vietnam

[00:22:47] I think that, oh, I must have been kind of influenced by Apocalypse Now, you know

[00:22:55] And other sort of big, expensive war epics

[00:23:01] Well, that was something I was going to ask you about is that when you watch the movie, it's very cinematic

[00:23:06] It does not feel stage bound and I have watched a lot of play adaptations over the many decades of film

[00:23:13] And a lot of them feel like you've just watched something that's a little creaky

[00:23:16] It's just the play, you know, basically shown on your TV and it doesn't have the same effect

[00:23:21] And I was just curious when you're going into the writing process

[00:23:24] If that's something that's very cognizant in your mind is to try to make this feel cinematic

[00:23:28] Um, yes, I, I think

[00:23:32] I remember asking myself, okay, what

[00:23:35] The play uses a lot of theatrical devices

[00:23:39] Um, so

[00:23:41] What are the cinematic equivalents of that?

[00:23:46] Um, for instance

[00:23:47] One of the big

[00:23:50] Dramatic

[00:23:51] Uh, moments in the play

[00:23:54] Is when

[00:23:57] Sung, the Chinese spy

[00:23:59] Who we've watched as a woman for two acts

[00:24:03] Uh, changes into a man on stage

[00:24:06] And, um, in a way I think that's, you know, more common now

[00:24:10] But back in 88, that, that was like, you know, people were astounded

[00:24:14] Um, so

[00:24:16] What is the cinematic equivalent of that?

[00:24:18] Um, and it seemed to me that, well, a lot of times

[00:24:23] The relationship between, uh, the story

[00:24:28] And the audience, what's going on on stage and what's going on, um, in the, in the spectators

[00:24:36] Minds is

[00:24:37] Very direct

[00:24:38] When you're in the theater

[00:24:40] That is

[00:24:41] When you're watching a play

[00:24:43] You look wherever you want

[00:24:45] You know, the director can try to focus you

[00:24:48] In a particular way

[00:24:49] But the director is not literally controlling your gaze

[00:24:52] Whereas

[00:24:53] In a movie

[00:24:55] The director, of course, does

[00:24:56] And that

[00:24:58] Therefore, a lot of the emotional impact

[00:25:01] It seems to me

[00:25:03] In movies

[00:25:04] Some

[00:25:05] Comes from

[00:25:07] Not only

[00:25:08] My reaction

[00:25:09] As the audience member to what I'm seeing

[00:25:12] But

[00:25:12] The reaction of other characters on the screen

[00:25:16] Um, so

[00:25:18] Therefore

[00:25:18] The notion that

[00:25:20] Rather than

[00:25:21] Directly

[00:25:22] As an audience member

[00:25:24] I'm watching

[00:25:25] Soong transform

[00:25:27] Um

[00:25:28] Um

[00:25:29] That that would be

[00:25:31] Something that would

[00:25:33] Be more powerful

[00:25:35] If

[00:25:36] Witnessed

[00:25:37] Through

[00:25:37] From another character

[00:25:39] Um

[00:25:40] And

[00:25:41] That

[00:25:42] That sort of gets translated

[00:25:44] In

[00:25:46] Uh

[00:25:47] The

[00:25:47] The kind of prison sequence

[00:25:49] Um

[00:25:50] At the end

[00:25:52] That leads to the suicide

[00:25:53] Um

[00:25:53] The

[00:25:54] Of course

[00:25:55] What happens in

[00:25:56] The paddy wagon

[00:25:57] Um

[00:25:58] And

[00:25:59] You know

[00:26:00] It's

[00:26:00] Those sorts of questions

[00:26:02] Like

[00:26:02] What is the cinematic equivalent

[00:26:04] To

[00:26:04] The effects and techniques

[00:26:07] That worked on stage

[00:26:09] Well that

[00:26:10] Um

[00:26:10] Actually leads me to one of my

[00:26:11] Other questions about the process

[00:26:13] Of adapting your own work

[00:26:14] Because

[00:26:15] This is sort of

[00:26:16] I would guess

[00:26:17] About four years post

[00:26:18] Maybe five years post

[00:26:19] Writing the original play itself

[00:26:21] And

[00:26:22] Did you take this opportunity

[00:26:24] To

[00:26:24] Fine tune

[00:26:25] Certain things

[00:26:26] That you wanted to change

[00:26:28] In terms of messaging

[00:26:29] Or structure

[00:26:29] I mean

[00:26:30] There are some changes

[00:26:31] That I'm aware of

[00:26:32] You mentioned the one

[00:26:32] Obviously changing the prison cell

[00:26:34] Meeting

[00:26:34] To

[00:26:35] Uh

[00:26:35] In the police van

[00:26:36] Because

[00:26:37] Just of how you'd shoot

[00:26:38] And they wouldn't have allowed them

[00:26:39] In reality

[00:26:40] Into the prison cell

[00:26:41] Yeah

[00:26:41] Uh

[00:26:41] Whereas the police van

[00:26:42] Makes more sense

[00:26:43] Um

[00:26:43] Like that

[00:26:44] Were there changes

[00:26:45] That you

[00:26:46] Made

[00:26:46] Or

[00:26:47] Things you wanted to

[00:26:48] Sort of

[00:26:48] Fine tune

[00:26:49] After the original

[00:26:50] Version of the story

[00:26:51] Um

[00:26:53] That is a little hard

[00:26:54] For me to remember

[00:26:54] To be honest

[00:26:55] I mean

[00:26:55] I do think

[00:26:56] That

[00:26:57] That's fair

[00:26:59] One of the

[00:26:59] Differences

[00:27:00] In focus

[00:27:02] Um

[00:27:02] And

[00:27:03] David

[00:27:04] I don't know

[00:27:04] If you're talking

[00:27:05] To David

[00:27:05] Um

[00:27:06] As part of the podcast

[00:27:07] But

[00:27:07] Um

[00:27:08] David said

[00:27:09] Pretty explicitly

[00:27:10] When the movie

[00:27:11] Was released

[00:27:12] So I don't

[00:27:13] I don't even feel like

[00:27:14] This is telling a tale

[00:27:15] Out of school

[00:27:15] Um

[00:27:16] That

[00:27:17] David wanted

[00:27:18] To make a movie

[00:27:19] About how

[00:27:19] All romantic love

[00:27:20] Is self-delusion

[00:27:22] Um

[00:27:23] And so

[00:27:26] There is

[00:27:28] I think

[00:27:28] An emphasis

[00:27:30] On

[00:27:31] The kind of

[00:27:32] Personal

[00:27:33] Aspects of it

[00:27:34] Of the

[00:27:35] Uh

[00:27:36] Of the story

[00:27:37] And

[00:27:38] The

[00:27:39] Intimacy

[00:27:40] Of the relationship

[00:27:41] Between

[00:27:42] Gallimard

[00:27:43] And

[00:27:43] Sung

[00:27:44] And

[00:27:45] Less

[00:27:46] Um

[00:27:47] Sort of

[00:27:48] Brechtian

[00:27:48] Political

[00:27:49] Didacticism

[00:27:50] Um

[00:27:51] That

[00:27:51] Exists in the play

[00:27:53] Okay

[00:27:53] And actually

[00:27:54] You know what

[00:27:54] I

[00:27:55] While we're talking

[00:27:56] About it

[00:27:56] I was

[00:27:57] Very interested

[00:27:57] To know

[00:27:58] About working

[00:27:58] With David

[00:27:59] Cronenberg

[00:27:59] Because

[00:28:00] You have

[00:28:01] Just

[00:28:02] Created

[00:28:02] M

[00:28:02] Butterfly

[00:28:03] It's

[00:28:03] Become a

[00:28:04] Sensation

[00:28:04] And now

[00:28:04] You're

[00:28:04] Working

[00:28:05] With a

[00:28:05] Director

[00:28:05] Who's

[00:28:05] Going

[00:28:06] To

[00:28:06] Have

[00:28:06] His

[00:28:06] Own

[00:28:06] Ideas

[00:28:07] And I

[00:28:07] Was

[00:28:08] Just

[00:28:08] Interested

[00:28:08] To know

[00:28:09] About what

[00:28:09] Some of

[00:28:09] Those

[00:28:10] Ideas were

[00:28:10] And how

[00:28:11] That sort

[00:28:11] Of evolved

[00:28:12] The story

[00:28:12] I mean

[00:28:13] I think

[00:28:13] That

[00:28:13] What I

[00:28:15] Just

[00:28:15] Sort of

[00:28:15] Described

[00:28:16] As

[00:28:17] The difference

[00:28:18] In focus

[00:28:19] Um

[00:28:20] Is

[00:28:21] Is

[00:28:21] The primary

[00:28:22] Shift

[00:28:23] Um

[00:28:24] And it

[00:28:24] Is exactly

[00:28:25] You know

[00:28:25] Right

[00:28:26] That

[00:28:26] The director

[00:28:27] When we

[00:28:28] Do these

[00:28:28] Translation

[00:28:29] Or any

[00:28:30] Translation

[00:28:30] From stage

[00:28:31] To film

[00:28:32] Um

[00:28:32] We are

[00:28:33] Going from

[00:28:34] A medium

[00:28:34] In which

[00:28:35] The playwright

[00:28:36] Is the primary

[00:28:37] Artistic voice

[00:28:38] To one

[00:28:39] In which

[00:28:39] The director

[00:28:40] Is the primary

[00:28:41] Artistic voice

[00:28:41] So in order

[00:28:42] To make

[00:28:43] The best

[00:28:44] Movie

[00:28:44] That

[00:28:45] David

[00:28:46] Can

[00:28:47] Um

[00:28:48] He needs

[00:28:49] To

[00:28:49] Have

[00:28:50] His sense

[00:28:51] Of what

[00:28:52] He wants

[00:28:53] To focus

[00:28:53] On

[00:28:53] And I

[00:28:54] As a

[00:28:54] Screenwriter

[00:28:55] Um

[00:28:56] Need to

[00:28:57] Uh

[00:28:58] Understand

[00:28:59] And

[00:29:01] Uh

[00:29:01] Work with

[00:29:02] That

[00:29:02] And try

[00:29:03] To support

[00:29:03] That

[00:29:03] Because

[00:29:04] Otherwise

[00:29:04] It's just

[00:29:04] Not

[00:29:05] Going to

[00:29:05] Be a

[00:29:05] Good

[00:29:05] Movie

[00:29:05] Totally

[00:29:07] And

[00:29:11] Familiar

[00:29:12] With

[00:29:12] Yeah

[00:29:13] I mean

[00:29:13] I

[00:29:13] Think

[00:29:13] I

[00:29:14] Feel

[00:29:16] Like

[00:29:16] I

[00:29:16] Seen

[00:29:17] Most

[00:29:18] Of

[00:29:18] His

[00:29:19] Movies

[00:29:20] Um

[00:29:21] You know

[00:29:22] Sort

[00:29:22] Of

[00:29:22] From

[00:29:23] The

[00:29:23] Early

[00:29:24] Kind

[00:29:25] Of

[00:29:26] Uh

[00:29:28] Shocking

[00:29:29] You know

[00:29:30] Body

[00:29:31] Horror

[00:29:31] Movies

[00:29:32] Um

[00:29:33] Up

[00:29:34] Through

[00:29:35] Up

[00:29:35] Through

[00:29:35] Dead

[00:29:36] Ringers

[00:29:36] At

[00:29:36] That

[00:29:36] Point

[00:29:37] And

[00:29:37] Then

[00:29:37] As

[00:29:37] We

[00:29:38] Were

[00:29:38] Working

[00:29:38] On

[00:29:39] The

[00:29:39] Movie

[00:29:39] He

[00:29:40] Was

[00:29:40] In

[00:29:40] Post

[00:29:40] For

[00:29:41] Naked

[00:29:41] Lunch

[00:29:41] So

[00:29:42] I

[00:29:43] Got

[00:29:43] To

[00:29:43] See

[00:29:43] Quite

[00:29:44] A

[00:29:44] Few

[00:29:44] Bits

[00:29:44] And

[00:29:44] Pieces

[00:29:45] Of

[00:29:45] That

[00:29:45] Um

[00:29:47] But

[00:29:48] Like

[00:29:48] A

[00:29:48] Lot

[00:29:48] Of

[00:29:48] Screen

[00:29:49] Writers

[00:29:49] Um

[00:29:50] I

[00:29:50] Wasn't

[00:29:51] Really

[00:29:51] Around

[00:29:52] Much

[00:29:52] For

[00:29:52] The

[00:29:52] Shooting

[00:29:53] Itself

[00:29:53] Um

[00:29:54] I

[00:29:55] Think

[00:29:55] I

[00:29:55] Went

[00:29:55] To

[00:29:55] The

[00:29:56] Set

[00:29:56] For

[00:29:56] Like

[00:29:56] Two

[00:29:56] Days

[00:29:57] There

[00:29:57] Is

[00:29:57] Just

[00:29:57] Kind

[00:29:57] Of

[00:29:57] A

[00:29:57] Nice

[00:29:58] Visit

[00:29:59] Um

[00:30:01] And

[00:30:01] Yeah

[00:30:02] Once

[00:30:02] We

[00:30:03] Got

[00:30:03] A

[00:30:03] Script

[00:30:03] That

[00:30:03] David

[00:30:03] Was

[00:30:04] Happy

[00:30:04] With

[00:30:04] Then

[00:30:05] You

[00:30:05] Know

[00:30:05] It

[00:30:05] Became

[00:30:06] It

[00:30:06] Became

[00:30:07] His

[00:30:07] Thing

[00:30:07] Uh

[00:30:08] One

[00:30:08] Of

[00:30:08] The

[00:30:09] Things

[00:30:10] That

[00:30:10] He

[00:30:10] Changed

[00:30:11] In

[00:30:11] The

[00:30:11] Edat

[00:30:12] Which

[00:30:13] Uh

[00:30:13] I

[00:30:14] Think

[00:30:14] Makes

[00:30:15] A

[00:30:15] Certain

[00:30:15] Amount

[00:30:15] Of

[00:30:15] Sense

[00:30:15] Is

[00:30:16] There

[00:30:18] In

[00:30:18] The

[00:30:18] Play

[00:30:19] We

[00:30:20] See

[00:30:20] There's

[00:30:21] A

[00:30:26] And

[00:30:26] We

[00:30:26] See

[00:30:26] When

[00:30:27] They

[00:30:27] Breakup

[00:30:28] And

[00:30:29] David

[00:30:31] Decided

[00:30:31] To move

[00:30:32] The story

[00:30:33] Along

[00:30:33] And I

[00:30:35] Think now

[00:30:35] When

[00:30:36] Soong

[00:30:37] Comes

[00:30:37] Back

[00:30:38] To

[00:30:38] Paris

[00:30:38] Um

[00:30:40] Gallimore

[00:30:41] Just

[00:30:41] Tells

[00:30:42] Tells

[00:30:43] Her

[00:30:43] That

[00:30:43] Um

[00:30:44] He

[00:30:44] Lives

[00:30:45] Alone

[00:30:45] Now

[00:30:47] Um

[00:30:47] So

[00:30:48] That

[00:30:48] Was

[00:30:49] Sort

[00:30:49] Of

[00:30:49] One

[00:30:49] Important

[00:30:50] Switch

[00:30:51] And

[00:30:51] Then

[00:30:51] Not

[00:30:52] Too

[00:30:52] Many

[00:30:53] People

[00:30:53] Had

[00:30:53] Not

[00:30:54] Too

[00:30:55] Many

[00:30:55] Western

[00:30:55] Filmmakers

[00:30:57] Had

[00:30:57] Shot

[00:30:57] In

[00:30:58] China

[00:30:58] At

[00:30:58] That

[00:30:59] Point

[00:30:59] Uh

[00:31:00] And

[00:31:02] So

[00:31:02] They

[00:31:03] Learned

[00:31:03] So

[00:31:03] Much

[00:31:03] Actually

[00:31:04] Being

[00:31:04] There

[00:31:05] That

[00:31:06] That

[00:31:06] Shifted

[00:31:07] Things

[00:31:07] Of

[00:31:08] Course

[00:31:08] As

[00:31:09] It

[00:31:09] Would

[00:31:09] In

[00:31:09] Any

[00:31:09] Movie

[00:31:10] Well

[00:31:11] One

[00:31:11] Thing

[00:31:12] About

[00:31:12] The

[00:31:13] Collaborative

[00:31:13] Relationship

[00:31:14] With

[00:31:14] David

[00:31:14] Cronenberg

[00:31:15] I

[00:31:15] Wanted

[00:31:15] To

[00:31:15] Dig

[00:31:15] Into

[00:31:16] Is

[00:31:16] You

[00:31:16] Mentioned

[00:31:17] About

[00:31:17] Obviously

[00:31:17] Working

[00:31:17] Together

[00:31:18] Making

[00:31:18] The

[00:31:18] Script

[00:31:18] And

[00:31:19] And

[00:31:19] You

[00:31:19] Sort

[00:31:20] Of

[00:31:20] Didn't

[00:31:20] You

[00:31:21] Weren't

[00:31:21] As

[00:31:21] Much

[00:31:21] Involved

[00:31:21] After

[00:31:22] That

[00:31:22] Point

[00:31:22] Which

[00:31:22] Does

[00:31:22] Seem

[00:31:22] To

[00:31:22] Be

[00:31:23] A

[00:31:23] Through

[00:31:23] Line

[00:31:23] For

[00:31:23] Many

[00:31:24] Screenwriters

[00:31:24] We've

[00:31:24] Spoken

[00:31:25] To

[00:31:25] Over

[00:31:25] The

[00:31:25] Years

[00:31:26] But

[00:31:27] One

[00:31:27] Step

[00:31:57] The

[00:31:58] Casting

[00:31:58] Side

[00:31:58] Of

[00:31:58] Things

[00:32:00] I

[00:32:01] You know

[00:32:03] On

[00:32:03] That

[00:32:04] Level

[00:32:04] It's

[00:32:04] Not

[00:32:05] Generally

[00:32:05] Like

[00:32:06] You

[00:32:06] Have

[00:32:07] Auditions

[00:32:07] So

[00:32:08] It's

[00:32:08] Really

[00:32:08] Just

[00:32:09] The

[00:32:09] Conversations

[00:32:10] About

[00:32:10] Who

[00:32:11] Should

[00:32:11] We

[00:32:11] Go

[00:32:11] Out

[00:32:11] To

[00:32:13] I

[00:32:14] Know

[00:32:14] BD

[00:32:14] Wong

[00:32:15] Who

[00:32:15] Did

[00:32:15] The

[00:32:16] Roll

[00:32:16] On

[00:32:16] Broadway

[00:32:16] And

[00:32:16] To

[00:32:17] Much

[00:32:17] Acclaim

[00:32:18] And

[00:32:18] Many

[00:32:18] Awards

[00:32:18] BD

[00:32:19] Was

[00:32:19] Considered

[00:32:22] David

[00:32:23] For

[00:32:23] Whatever

[00:32:24] Reason

[00:32:24] Wasn't

[00:32:25] As

[00:32:25] Inclined

[00:32:26] To

[00:32:26] Make

[00:32:27] The

[00:32:27] Movie

[00:32:27] With

[00:32:27] BD

[00:32:29] And

[00:32:29] John

[00:32:29] Lone

[00:32:30] And

[00:32:30] I

[00:32:30] Had

[00:32:31] Quite

[00:32:32] A

[00:32:32] Long

[00:32:32] History

[00:32:32] We

[00:32:33] Started

[00:32:34] Out

[00:32:34] Together

[00:32:34] We

[00:32:35] My

[00:32:36] Very

[00:32:36] First

[00:32:36] Play

[00:32:37] When

[00:32:37] I

[00:32:37] Talk

[00:32:37] About

[00:32:37] The

[00:32:38] Play

[00:32:38] That

[00:32:38] I

[00:32:38] Wrote

[00:32:38] In

[00:32:39] For

[00:32:39] My

[00:32:40] Dormitory

[00:32:40] That

[00:32:41] Got

[00:32:41] Done

[00:32:42] At

[00:32:42] The

[00:32:42] Public

[00:32:43] Theater

[00:32:43] Off

[00:32:43] Broadway

[00:32:44] In

[00:32:44] New

[00:32:44] York

[00:32:44] That

[00:32:45] Play

[00:32:46] Stared

[00:32:46] John

[00:32:46] Lone

[00:32:47] And

[00:32:47] That's

[00:32:47] Where

[00:32:48] We

[00:32:48] First

[00:32:48] Met

[00:32:48] We

[00:32:49] Did

[00:32:50] That

[00:32:50] Play

[00:32:50] Together

[00:32:51] I

[00:32:52] Wrote

[00:32:52] A

[00:32:52] Second

[00:32:53] Play

[00:32:53] For

[00:32:53] John

[00:32:54] Called

[00:32:54] The

[00:32:54] Dance

[00:32:55] In

[00:32:55] The

[00:32:55] Railroad

[00:32:55] Which

[00:32:56] Became

[00:32:57] The

[00:32:58] Next

[00:32:58] Play

[00:32:58] That

[00:32:58] The

[00:32:59] Producer

[00:32:59] Joseph

[00:33:00] Papp

[00:33:00] Produced

[00:33:01] Of

[00:33:01] Mine

[00:33:01] At

[00:33:01] The

[00:33:01] Public

[00:33:02] Theater

[00:33:02] And

[00:33:03] We

[00:33:04] Had

[00:33:04] Also

[00:33:04] Done

[00:33:04] A

[00:33:05] Third

[00:33:05] Play

[00:33:05] At

[00:33:06] The

[00:33:06] Public

[00:33:06] Theater

[00:33:06] So

[00:33:07] John

[00:33:07] And

[00:33:07] I

[00:33:07] Really

[00:33:08] Emerged

[00:33:09] Together

[00:33:10] He

[00:33:11] Then

[00:33:12] Got

[00:33:13] His

[00:33:13] First

[00:33:14] Major

[00:33:14] Film

[00:33:14] Role

[00:33:14] In

[00:33:15] Fred

[00:33:16] Skepsi's

[00:33:16] Film

[00:33:17] Iceman

[00:33:17] He

[00:33:18] Became

[00:33:19] Much

[00:33:20] Better

[00:33:21] Known

[00:33:22] Through

[00:33:23] A

[00:33:24] Movie

[00:33:25] Year

[00:33:25] With

[00:33:25] The

[00:33:26] Dragon

[00:33:26] Michael

[00:33:26] Cimino's

[00:33:27] Movie

[00:33:27] Where

[00:33:28] He

[00:33:29] Started

[00:33:29] To

[00:33:29] Become

[00:33:29] Sort

[00:33:30] Of

[00:33:30] A

[00:33:31] Heart

[00:33:31] Throb

[00:33:31] And

[00:33:32] By

[00:33:33] That

[00:33:33] Point

[00:33:34] By

[00:33:34] The

[00:33:34] Time

[00:33:35] We

[00:33:35] Were

[00:33:35] Doing

[00:33:35] The

[00:33:35] M

[00:33:35] Butterfly

[00:33:35] Movie

[00:33:36] Had

[00:33:36] Played

[00:33:37] The

[00:33:38] Title

[00:33:38] Role

[00:33:39] In

[00:33:39] Bertolucci

[00:33:39] The

[00:33:40] Last

[00:33:40] Emperor

[00:33:40] So

[00:33:41] John

[00:33:42] Had

[00:33:43] Both

[00:33:44] The

[00:33:44] Kind

[00:33:46] Of

[00:33:46] Screen

[00:33:47] Cred

[00:33:47] And

[00:33:49] Star

[00:33:49] Quality

[00:33:51] And

[00:33:51] He

[00:33:51] And

[00:33:52] I

[00:33:52] Had

[00:33:52] A

[00:33:52] History

[00:33:52] Together

[00:33:53] So

[00:33:53] It

[00:33:54] Was

[00:33:54] I

[00:33:54] Was

[00:33:56] It

[00:33:57] Was

[00:33:57] David's

[00:33:58] Decision

[00:33:58] But

[00:33:59] I

[00:33:59] Was

[00:33:59] Actually

[00:34:00] Quite

[00:34:01] Happy

[00:34:01] That

[00:34:02] If

[00:34:03] It

[00:34:03] Wasn't

[00:34:03] Going

[00:34:03] To

[00:34:03] Be

[00:34:04] BD

[00:34:04] That

[00:34:04] It

[00:34:04] Would

[00:34:04] Be

[00:34:05] John

[00:34:05] Was

[00:34:06] There

[00:34:06] Ever

[00:34:06] Any

[00:34:06] Consideration

[00:34:07] Of

[00:34:07] Bringing

[00:34:07] Over

[00:34:08] John

[00:34:08] Lithgow

[00:34:09] Or

[00:34:09] Was

[00:34:10] Like

[00:34:10] Once

[00:34:11] The

[00:34:11] Package

[00:34:11] Just

[00:34:12] Happened

[00:34:12] With

[00:34:12] Jeremy

[00:34:12] Irons

[00:34:12] That

[00:34:13] Wasn't

[00:34:13] Even

[00:34:13] A

[00:34:13] Consider

[00:34:13] I

[00:34:14] Think

[00:34:14] It

[00:34:17] The

[00:34:17] Fact

[00:34:17] That

[00:34:18] David

[00:34:18] And

[00:34:19] Jeremy

[00:34:19] Wanted

[00:34:20] To

[00:34:20] Work

[00:34:20] Together

[00:34:20] Again

[00:34:21] Was

[00:34:22] The

[00:34:22] Thing

[00:34:23] That

[00:34:23] Kind

[00:34:24] Of

[00:34:24] Motivated

[00:34:25] Them

[00:34:25] To

[00:34:25] Come

[00:34:26] Together

[00:34:26] On

[00:34:26] M

[00:34:27] Butterfly

[00:34:27] So

[00:34:27] Unless

[00:34:28] For

[00:34:28] Some

[00:34:29] Reason

[00:34:29] Jeremy

[00:34:30] Would

[00:34:31] Have

[00:34:31] Dropped

[00:34:31] Out

[00:34:32] I

[00:34:32] Don't

[00:34:33] Think

[00:34:33] Anybody

[00:34:34] Else

[00:34:35] Was

[00:34:35] Considered

[00:34:35] Right

[00:34:36] It's

[00:34:38] It's

[00:34:38] Also

[00:34:38] Kind

[00:34:38] Of

[00:34:38] A

[00:34:39] Small

[00:34:39] World

[00:34:39] That

[00:34:39] You

[00:34:39] Mention

[00:34:40] Fred

[00:34:41] Skepsy

[00:34:41] Someone

[00:34:41] Who

[00:34:42] We've

[00:34:42] Had

[00:34:42] On

[00:34:42] The

[00:34:42] Show

[00:34:42] Before

[00:34:43] Talking

[00:34:44] About

[00:34:44] His

[00:34:44] Film

[00:34:44] The

[00:34:44] Russia

[00:34:44] House

[00:34:45] Because

[00:34:45] He

[00:34:45] Was

[00:34:45] One

[00:34:46] Of

[00:34:46] The

[00:34:46] First

[00:34:46] To

[00:34:46] Shoot

[00:34:47] In

[00:34:47] Russia

[00:34:47] When

[00:34:48] They

[00:34:48] Opened

[00:34:48] Up

[00:34:48] The

[00:34:48] Barriers

[00:34:49] There

[00:34:49] To

[00:34:49] Let

[00:34:49] You

[00:34:49] Do

[00:34:49] That

[00:34:50] And

[00:34:50] Of

[00:34:50] Of

[00:34:50] Of

[00:34:50] One

[00:34:51] Of

[00:34:52] The

[00:34:52] First

[00:34:52] To

[00:34:52] Shoot

[00:34:53] In

[00:34:53] China

[00:34:53] So

[00:34:54] Western

[00:34:54] Productions

[00:34:55] Anyway

[00:34:55] And

[00:34:55] I

[00:34:55] Thought

[00:34:56] That

[00:34:56] Was

[00:34:56] A nice

[00:34:56] Bit

[00:34:56] Of

[00:34:57] Symmetry

[00:34:57] There

[00:34:57] But

[00:34:58] Moving

[00:34:58] On

[00:34:59] To

[00:34:59] The

[00:34:59] Production

[00:34:59] You

[00:35:00] Took

[00:35:00] A

[00:35:00] Step

[00:35:01] Back

[00:35:01] But

[00:35:01] You

[00:35:01] Did

[00:35:01] Visit

[00:35:01] The

[00:35:02] Set

[00:35:02] A

[00:35:02] Couple

[00:35:02] Of

[00:35:02] Times

[00:35:02] I

[00:35:02] Was

[00:35:02] Just

[00:35:03] Curious

[00:35:03] To

[00:35:03] What

[00:35:04] Part

[00:35:04] Of

[00:35:04] The

[00:35:04] Set

[00:35:04] You

[00:35:05] Got

[00:35:05] To

[00:35:05] Visit

[00:35:05] And

[00:35:05] Did

[00:35:06] You

[00:35:06] See

[00:35:06] It

[00:35:06] Being

[00:35:06] Shot

[00:35:07] Any

[00:35:07] Memories

[00:35:07] Of

[00:35:08] Being

[00:35:08] On

[00:35:08] The

[00:35:08] And

[00:35:08] Seeing

[00:35:09] Your

[00:35:10] Play

[00:35:10] That

[00:35:10] You've

[00:35:10] On

[00:35:11] Be

[00:35:12] A

[00:35:14] Bigger

[00:35:14] Thing

[00:35:15] That's

[00:35:15] A

[00:35:15] Whole

[00:35:15] Different

[00:35:15] Experience

[00:35:16] I

[00:35:16] Imagine

[00:35:16] Except

[00:35:17] That

[00:35:18] I'm

[00:35:18] Not

[00:35:18] Really

[00:35:19] Watching

[00:35:19] It

[00:35:20] On

[00:35:20] The

[00:35:20] Screen

[00:35:20] And

[00:35:21] You

[00:35:21] Know

[00:35:21] In

[00:35:21] Those

[00:35:22] Days

[00:35:22] It's

[00:35:22] Not

[00:35:23] Like

[00:35:23] I

[00:35:23] I

[00:35:23] I

[00:35:23] Since

[00:35:24] Worked

[00:35:24] On

[00:35:25] Other

[00:35:25] TV

[00:35:25] Shows

[00:35:26] And

[00:35:26] Movies

[00:35:26] And

[00:35:26] Things

[00:35:26] Of

[00:35:27] Course

[00:35:27] Now

[00:35:27] We

[00:35:27] Have

[00:35:27] You

[00:35:28] Know

[00:35:28] We

[00:35:28] Have

[00:35:28] Instant

[00:35:28] Playback

[00:35:29] And

[00:35:29] Everybody

[00:35:29] Goes

[00:35:29] To

[00:35:30] Video

[00:35:30] Village

[00:35:30] And

[00:35:30] You

[00:35:30] See

[00:35:31] What

[00:35:31] The

[00:35:31] But

[00:35:31] That

[00:35:32] Wasn't

[00:35:32] The

[00:35:32] Case

[00:35:32] In

[00:35:32] Those

[00:35:33] Days

[00:35:33] That

[00:35:33] Was

[00:35:33] Literally

[00:35:34] Still

[00:35:34] Shooting

[00:35:35] On

[00:35:35] Film

[00:35:35] And

[00:35:35] You

[00:35:36] Don't

[00:35:36] Know

[00:35:36] What

[00:35:36] The

[00:35:36] Film

[00:35:36] Is

[00:35:36] Going

[00:35:36] To

[00:35:36] Look

[00:35:37] Like

[00:35:38] And

[00:35:39] So

[00:35:39] Basically

[00:35:40] I

[00:35:40] Was

[00:35:40] Watching

[00:35:41] I

[00:35:41] Think

[00:35:42] I

[00:35:44] I

[00:35:44] Feel

[00:35:44] Like

[00:35:45] I

[00:35:45] Watched

[00:35:45] A

[00:35:45] Scene

[00:35:46] With

[00:35:47] John

[00:35:49] And

[00:35:50] Jeremy

[00:35:50] That

[00:35:53] It's

[00:35:54] That

[00:35:54] Kind

[00:35:54] Of

[00:35:56] Long

[00:35:56] Pan

[00:35:57] Which

[00:35:58] Starts

[00:35:58] On

[00:35:59] One

[00:35:59] It's

[00:36:00] Basically

[00:36:00] A

[00:36:00] Love

[00:36:01] Making

[00:36:01] Scene

[00:36:01] But

[00:36:03] It

[00:36:04] Starts

[00:36:04] On

[00:36:05] One

[00:36:05] Side

[00:36:05] Of

[00:36:05] The

[00:36:06] Room

[00:36:06] Moves

[00:36:06] Really

[00:36:07] Slowly

[00:36:08] And

[00:36:08] Eventually

[00:36:09] You

[00:36:09] See

[00:36:10] Them

[00:36:10] Kind

[00:36:11] Of

[00:36:11] At

[00:36:12] The

[00:36:12] End

[00:36:12] Of

[00:36:12] The

[00:36:12] Pan

[00:36:13] Kind

[00:36:14] Of

[00:36:14] Baking

[00:36:14] Out

[00:36:14] Together

[00:36:15] And

[00:36:15] There's

[00:36:16] You

[00:36:17] Know

[00:36:17] It's

[00:36:17] The

[00:36:18] Sort

[00:36:18] Of

[00:36:18] Scene

[00:36:18] That

[00:36:20] Takes

[00:36:20] A

[00:36:20] Long

[00:36:21] Time

[00:36:21] Shoot

[00:36:21] And

[00:36:22] It's

[00:36:22] Very

[00:36:23] Specific

[00:36:24] And

[00:36:25] There's

[00:36:26] Maybe

[00:36:26] Not

[00:36:26] That

[00:36:27] Much

[00:36:27] To

[00:36:27] See

[00:36:28] If

[00:36:28] You're

[00:36:28] Just

[00:36:28] A

[00:36:28] Bystander

[00:36:29] So

[00:36:30] I

[00:36:30] Also

[00:36:31] Became

[00:36:31] Aware

[00:36:32] Of

[00:36:33] How

[00:36:33] Movies

[00:36:34] Are

[00:36:34] Made

[00:36:34] But

[00:36:35] It

[00:36:35] Wasn't

[00:36:36] I

[00:36:36] Would

[00:36:36] Say

[00:36:37] Quite

[00:36:37] As

[00:36:38] Dramatic

[00:36:38] As

[00:36:40] Getting

[00:36:41] To

[00:36:42] See

[00:36:43] What

[00:36:44] Things

[00:36:44] Look

[00:36:44] Like

[00:36:45] When

[00:36:45] It's

[00:36:46] Put

[00:36:46] Together

[00:36:46] Or

[00:36:47] Even

[00:36:48] The

[00:36:49] Dailies

[00:36:49] Yeah

[00:36:50] I guess

[00:36:50] It's

[00:36:50] Not

[00:36:50] A

[00:36:51] Moment

[00:36:51] That

[00:36:51] You

[00:36:51] Walk

[00:36:51] Away

[00:36:51] Going

[00:36:52] Well

[00:36:52] This

[00:36:53] Thing

[00:36:53] Is

[00:36:53] Off

[00:36:53] And

[00:36:53] Running

[00:36:55] Yeah

[00:36:55] Yeah

[00:36:56] I

[00:36:57] Did

[00:36:58] Yeah

[00:36:58] Somebody

[00:36:59] They

[00:36:59] Had

[00:36:59] Sent

[00:37:00] Me

[00:37:00] A

[00:37:02] VHS

[00:37:03] Of

[00:37:03] The

[00:37:04] Title

[00:37:04] Sequence

[00:37:05] At

[00:37:05] Some

[00:37:05] Point

[00:37:06] Which

[00:37:06] I

[00:37:06] Thought

[00:37:06] Was

[00:37:06] Really

[00:37:07] Great

[00:37:07] I

[00:37:08] Love

[00:37:08] The

[00:37:08] Title

[00:37:08] Sequence

[00:37:09] And

[00:37:09] Just

[00:37:09] Thrilled

[00:37:10] I

[00:37:10] Mean

[00:37:10] That

[00:37:11] If

[00:37:11] Anything

[00:37:11] Was

[00:37:12] The

[00:37:12] Moment

[00:37:12] I

[00:37:12] Was

[00:37:13] Like

[00:37:13] Wow

[00:37:13] This

[00:37:13] Is

[00:37:13] A

[00:37:13] Real

[00:37:14] Movie

[00:37:14] There's

[00:37:15] A

[00:37:15] Title

[00:37:15] Sequence

[00:37:16] It's

[00:37:16] Very

[00:37:17] Cool

[00:37:45] There's

[00:37:46] Red Alert

[00:37:47] Spy

[00:37:47] Hard

[00:37:48] We

[00:37:48] Are

[00:37:48] Shaking

[00:37:49] Things

[00:37:49] Up

[00:37:49] Over

[00:37:50] On

[00:37:50] The

[00:37:50] Patreon

[00:37:51] Page

[00:37:51] That's

[00:37:52] Right

[00:37:52] We

[00:37:52] Are

[00:37:53] Launching

[00:37:53] An

[00:37:53] Exclusive

[00:37:54] New

[00:37:54] Show

[00:37:54] Where

[00:37:55] We

[00:37:55] Tackle

[00:37:55] The

[00:37:55] Exploits

[00:37:56] Of

[00:37:56] The

[00:37:56] Small

[00:37:56] Screen

[00:37:57] Greatest

[00:37:57] Secret

[00:37:58] Agents

[00:37:58] Like

[00:37:59] Jack

[00:37:59] Bauer

[00:38:00] George

[00:38:00] Smiley

[00:38:01] And

[00:38:01] Beyond

[00:38:02] And

[00:38:02] Don't

[00:38:03] Forget

[00:38:03] Every

[00:38:04] Month

[00:38:04] You

[00:38:16] What

[00:38:16] We

[00:38:16] Have

[00:38:17] Coming

[00:38:17] Up

[00:38:18] Next

[00:38:18] Folks

[00:38:18] Bid

[00:38:19] October

[00:38:20] And

[00:38:20] The

[00:38:20] Spooky

[00:38:20] Season

[00:38:21] Adieu

[00:38:21] By

[00:38:22] Catching

[00:38:23] Up

[00:38:23] With

[00:38:23] Our

[00:38:23] Latest

[00:38:24] Patreon

[00:38:24] Offerings

[00:38:25] That's

[00:38:25] Right

[00:38:25] Reviews

[00:38:26] Of

[00:38:26] The

[00:38:26] Exorcist

[00:38:27] And

[00:38:27] Shaun

[00:38:27] Of

[00:38:28] The

[00:38:28] Dead

[00:38:28] Plus

[00:38:29] The

[00:38:29] 2017

[00:38:30] Taken

[00:38:31] TV

[00:38:31] Pilot

[00:38:32] A

[00:38:32] Taken

[00:38:33] TV

[00:38:33] Show

[00:38:33] Without

[00:38:34] Liam

[00:38:34] Neeson

[00:38:34] Now

[00:38:35] That

[00:38:35] Is

[00:38:35] Scary

[00:38:36] So

[00:38:37] Strap

[00:38:37] On

[00:38:38] Your

[00:38:46] Four

[00:38:46] Big O

[00:38:46] Zaps

[00:38:47] Us

[00:38:47] With

[00:38:47] The

[00:38:47] Red

[00:38:47] Pulsating

[00:38:48] Laser

[00:38:48] Let's

[00:38:49] Get

[00:38:49] Back

[00:38:50] To

[00:38:50] The

[00:38:50] Spy

[00:38:50] Jinx

[00:38:52] Well

[00:38:52] Okay

[00:38:53] So

[00:38:53] Then

[00:38:54] At

[00:38:54] That

[00:38:54] Point

[00:38:54] You

[00:38:55] You

[00:38:55] You

[00:38:55] Popped

[00:38:56] In

[00:38:56] You

[00:38:56] Seen

[00:38:56] Of

[00:38:56] It

[00:38:56] Being

[00:38:57] Shot

[00:38:57] And

[00:38:58] Then

[00:38:58] We

[00:38:58] Go

[00:38:58] Through

[00:38:58] The

[00:38:59] Editing

[00:38:59] Process

[00:38:59] And

[00:39:16] His

[00:39:16] Character

[00:39:16] In

[00:39:17] And

[00:39:17] Perform

[00:39:17] In

[00:39:18] The

[00:39:18] Film

[00:39:18] I

[00:39:19] Know

[00:39:19] Obviously

[00:39:19] You

[00:39:19] Work

[00:39:19] There

[00:39:19] For

[00:39:19] The

[00:39:21] Editing

[00:39:21] Process

[00:39:21] Or

[00:39:22] Perhaps

[00:39:22] What

[00:39:22] Those

[00:39:22] 20

[00:39:22] Minutes

[00:39:23] Were

[00:39:23] Because

[00:39:23] There's

[00:39:23] No

[00:39:23] Sort

[00:39:23] Of

[00:39:24] Idea

[00:39:25] As

[00:39:25] To

[00:39:25] What

[00:39:25] Those

[00:39:25] Lost

[00:39:25] 20 minutes were? I don't.

[00:39:28] Because

[00:39:29] I didn't see early

[00:39:31] cuts, so I don't know what

[00:39:33] existed that

[00:39:36] other than

[00:39:37] the loss of the

[00:39:39] breakup of the wife. I don't know what

[00:39:41] scenes were lost.

[00:39:45] I mean, there may have been

[00:39:48] scenes...

[00:39:49] I'm trying to remember the movie.

[00:39:52] Are there

[00:39:53] scenes with

[00:39:54] Sung Lee Ling and Comrade Chin

[00:39:57] in the movie?

[00:39:59] Yes. There's a couple of

[00:40:00] quick meetings with them. I think it was one in a

[00:40:03] stairwell, I seem to recall.

[00:40:05] One at Song's house.

[00:40:07] There's considerably

[00:40:08] more scenes between

[00:40:11] Comrade Chin and

[00:40:13] Sung Lee Ling in the play.

[00:40:15] And I believe those were

[00:40:17] in the screenplay, so that

[00:40:19] could very well have been what John

[00:40:21] is referring to.

[00:40:23] Yeah, I had read that there was

[00:40:25] an intention to kind of shift

[00:40:27] the film version

[00:40:29] more towards the relationship

[00:40:31] and a little less towards the politics.

[00:40:32] And is that perhaps something that was

[00:40:34] shaped there in the edit?

[00:40:36] Yeah, I think that

[00:40:37] that is a fair way to characterize

[00:40:40] the difference between

[00:40:41] the film and

[00:40:43] the play. And it's consistent

[00:40:45] with this notion that

[00:40:46] David was

[00:40:47] interested in

[00:40:48] a movie about how

[00:40:50] romance is self-delusion.

[00:40:52] So therefore,

[00:40:54] if we're going to

[00:40:56] speculate, it's a logical

[00:40:58] speculation

[00:40:58] that the kind of more

[00:41:01] political material

[00:41:02] between

[00:41:03] Sung and Chin

[00:41:05] would have been cut

[00:41:06] and that

[00:41:07] John might also see that

[00:41:10] as being

[00:41:11] giving more insight

[00:41:13] into his character.

[00:41:15] That makes sense.

[00:41:17] And I was going to ask you

[00:41:18] about

[00:41:20] bringing the character of

[00:41:21] Sung to the screen,

[00:41:23] because there's so much

[00:41:24] subtlety

[00:41:25] that we can read into

[00:41:26] that performance.

[00:41:27] And in

[00:41:27] many ways,

[00:41:28] that's the emotional core,

[00:41:29] I think, for the audience

[00:41:30] that they are brought into.

[00:41:31] And just the difference is

[00:41:33] because obviously

[00:41:33] the camera

[00:41:34] can pull

[00:41:35] so much more

[00:41:36] out of the character

[00:41:36] when you're that close

[00:41:38] versus

[00:41:39] the stage version.

[00:41:41] And whether that's

[00:41:43] writing it

[00:41:44] as well as just

[00:41:45] yourself seeing

[00:41:46] the film version

[00:41:47] versus the play.

[00:41:48] Yeah, I think

[00:41:49] so if we think about

[00:41:50] the fact that

[00:41:50] the play is

[00:41:53] essentially

[00:41:53] told from

[00:41:55] Gallimard's point of view.

[00:41:57] Gallimard narrates

[00:41:58] the play

[00:41:59] rather like

[00:42:00] in Amadeus

[00:42:02] the way that

[00:42:02] Salieri

[00:42:04] is the main figure

[00:42:05] and has

[00:42:06] more of a voiceover.

[00:42:09] In

[00:42:11] Butterfly,

[00:42:12] Gallimard does not

[00:42:13] have a voiceover.

[00:42:15] So

[00:42:15] we are not

[00:42:17] he is not

[00:42:18] defining

[00:42:19] the

[00:42:21] lens

[00:42:21] of the play

[00:42:22] of the movie

[00:42:24] in the way

[00:42:25] that he does

[00:42:25] in the play.

[00:42:26] Now in the play

[00:42:27] then there is a battle

[00:42:28] for the narrative

[00:42:29] and then

[00:42:29] Sung ends up

[00:42:30] having the narrative

[00:42:32] starting in the courtroom.

[00:42:34] But

[00:42:36] the film

[00:42:37] is necessarily

[00:42:38] more objective

[00:42:40] as it were.

[00:42:41] I mean the camera

[00:42:42] has the camera's

[00:42:43] point of view

[00:42:43] instead of

[00:42:44] Gallimard's

[00:42:45] point of view.

[00:42:46] And therefore

[00:42:48] Sung

[00:42:48] emerges

[00:42:49] on

[00:42:52] her own

[00:42:53] terms

[00:42:55] and we

[00:42:56] meet her

[00:42:57] on her own

[00:42:58] terms

[00:42:58] or at least

[00:42:59] the camera's

[00:43:00] terms

[00:43:01] instead of

[00:43:03] through Gallimard's

[00:43:04] eyes.

[00:43:05] And I think

[00:43:05] that does

[00:43:06] therefore

[00:43:08] mean that

[00:43:10] Sung becomes

[00:43:11] Sung is more

[00:43:12] three-dimensional

[00:43:13] from the start

[00:43:14] as opposed to

[00:43:16] being

[00:43:17] more of a

[00:43:18] cultural stereotype

[00:43:19] at the beginning

[00:43:20] even though

[00:43:22] Sung

[00:43:23] talks back

[00:43:24] to Gallimard

[00:43:25] even at their

[00:43:25] first meeting.

[00:43:26] But essentially

[00:43:28] we're seeing

[00:43:29] Sung through

[00:43:29] a kind of

[00:43:30] Madame

[00:43:32] Butterfly

[00:43:32] lens in the

[00:43:33] play

[00:43:34] and

[00:43:35] that's not

[00:43:36] the case

[00:43:36] in the movie.

[00:43:38] So

[00:43:38] that makes

[00:43:39] a lot of

[00:43:39] sense to me

[00:43:40] as an

[00:43:40] analysis

[00:43:42] and also

[00:43:44] tells us

[00:43:45] a lot about

[00:43:45] why the

[00:43:46] intimacy

[00:43:46] of the

[00:43:46] relationship

[00:43:48] becomes more

[00:43:49] central in the

[00:43:50] movie

[00:43:51] and

[00:43:52] the

[00:43:53] politics

[00:43:53] the

[00:43:55] Brachian

[00:43:55] whatever we

[00:43:56] want to call

[00:43:57] it

[00:43:58] is

[00:43:59] much less

[00:44:00] emphasized.

[00:44:01] And there's

[00:44:02] so much

[00:44:02] ambiguity

[00:44:03] too

[00:44:03] whether it's

[00:44:04] the relationship

[00:44:05] whether it's

[00:44:05] the way they

[00:44:06] perceive each

[00:44:06] other

[00:44:06] because

[00:44:07] Sung

[00:44:07] is a

[00:44:08] spy

[00:44:08] as well

[00:44:09] as

[00:44:10] someone

[00:44:10] who

[00:44:10] may be

[00:44:11] in love

[00:44:11] we don't

[00:44:12] know

[00:44:12] like it's

[00:44:12] for us

[00:44:13] to read

[00:44:13] into

[00:44:13] and

[00:44:14] that is

[00:44:15] something

[00:44:15] that

[00:44:16] revisiting

[00:44:16] the movie

[00:44:17] is incredibly

[00:44:18] rich

[00:44:19] and I

[00:44:19] was rewatching

[00:44:20] it last

[00:44:20] night

[00:44:21] it's so

[00:44:21] rewarding

[00:44:21] to go

[00:44:22] back to

[00:44:22] at the

[00:44:23] same time

[00:44:24] that's a

[00:44:24] challenge

[00:44:24] to a lot

[00:44:25] of audiences

[00:44:25] was that

[00:44:26] something

[00:44:26] that was

[00:44:26] a concern

[00:44:27] when you're

[00:44:27] making the

[00:44:27] movie

[00:44:28] well

[00:44:29] because

[00:44:31] in some

[00:44:32] sense

[00:44:32] the point

[00:44:32] of view

[00:44:33] of the

[00:44:33] play

[00:44:34] is more

[00:44:34] is more

[00:44:35] schematic

[00:44:36] and I

[00:44:37] think

[00:44:37] it's

[00:44:37] clearer

[00:44:38] in the

[00:44:39] play

[00:44:40] that

[00:44:42] Sung

[00:44:42] is

[00:44:44] kind of

[00:44:45] doing a

[00:44:46] job

[00:44:46] and has

[00:44:47] a certain

[00:44:48] amount

[00:44:48] of

[00:44:49] even

[00:44:49] contempt

[00:44:50] for

[00:44:51] Gallimard

[00:44:52] where

[00:44:52] in the

[00:44:53] movie

[00:44:53] I do

[00:44:54] think

[00:44:54] it's

[00:44:55] more

[00:44:55] ambiguous

[00:44:56] and

[00:44:57] we

[00:44:58] don't

[00:44:58] know

[00:44:59] what

[00:44:59] as you

[00:45:00] say

[00:45:01] what

[00:45:01] what

[00:45:03] she's

[00:45:03] actually

[00:45:03] feeling

[00:45:04] we know

[00:45:05] she's

[00:45:05] a spy

[00:45:06] but we

[00:45:06] don't

[00:45:06] know

[00:45:07] if

[00:45:07] there

[00:45:08] is

[00:45:08] actual

[00:45:09] love

[00:45:10] here

[00:45:10] and

[00:45:10] there

[00:45:11] is

[00:45:11] more

[00:45:11] of a

[00:45:12] possibility

[00:45:13] I

[00:45:18] a

[00:45:19] more

[00:45:20] nuanced

[00:45:22] point

[00:45:22] of view

[00:45:22] and

[00:45:23] also

[00:45:23] therefore

[00:45:24] more

[00:45:24] challenging

[00:45:25] as

[00:45:26] you

[00:45:26] suggest

[00:45:27] because

[00:45:27] it

[00:45:28] doesn't

[00:45:29] set

[00:45:29] out

[00:45:30] the

[00:45:31] kind

[00:45:31] of

[00:45:31] emotional

[00:45:32] parameters

[00:45:33] as

[00:45:33] clearly

[00:45:34] as

[00:45:48] a

[00:45:49] little

[00:45:49] more

[00:45:49] contemporary

[00:45:50] in

[00:45:51] its

[00:45:51] ambiguity

[00:45:53] it's

[00:45:54] actually

[00:45:54] a

[00:45:54] really

[00:45:54] good

[00:45:54] point

[00:45:54] and

[00:45:55] sort

[00:45:55] of

[00:45:56] a

[00:45:56] question

[00:45:56] I

[00:45:56] had

[00:45:56] or

[00:45:57] at

[00:45:57] least

[00:45:57] a

[00:45:57] note

[00:45:57] is

[00:45:58] one

[00:45:58] thing

[00:45:58] cam

[00:45:58] and

[00:45:58] i

[00:45:58] reflected

[00:45:59] upon

[00:45:59] when we

[00:45:59] reviewed

[00:46:00] this

[00:46:00] a

[00:46:00] while

[00:46:00] ago

[00:46:00] is

[00:46:01] it

[00:46:01] feels

[00:46:01] like

[00:46:01] a

[00:46:02] story

[00:46:03] that

[00:46:03] should

[00:46:03] have

[00:46:04] been

[00:46:05] told

[00:46:05] then

[00:46:05] but

[00:46:05] also

[00:46:06] feels

[00:46:06] quite

[00:46:06] relevant

[00:46:07] now

[00:46:07] when

[00:46:07] a

[00:46:08] lot

[00:46:08] of

[00:46:08] trans

[00:46:09] rights

[00:46:09] and

[00:46:10] things

[00:46:10] people

[00:46:10] are

[00:46:10] really

[00:46:11] pushing

[00:46:11] forward

[00:46:12] now

[00:46:12] and

[00:46:13] this

[00:46:13] film

[00:46:14] I

[00:46:14] think

[00:46:14] and

[00:46:14] I've

[00:46:15] read

[00:46:15] online

[00:46:15] is

[00:46:15] being

[00:46:16] found

[00:46:16] by

[00:46:16] a

[00:46:16] whole

[00:46:16] new

[00:46:16] audience

[00:46:17] and

[00:46:18] I'm

[00:46:18] glad

[00:46:18] it's

[00:46:19] being

[00:46:19] discovered

[00:46:20] and

[00:46:20] reappraised

[00:46:21] in that

[00:46:21] way

[00:46:22] and

[00:46:22] just

[00:46:22] your

[00:46:23] thoughts

[00:46:23] on

[00:46:24] that

[00:46:24] and

[00:46:24] it

[00:46:24] being

[00:46:24] found

[00:46:25] by

[00:46:25] this

[00:46:25] whole

[00:46:25] other

[00:46:26] community

[00:46:26] that

[00:46:26] are

[00:46:26] really

[00:46:26] championing

[00:46:27] it

[00:46:27] yeah

[00:46:28] it's

[00:46:29] been

[00:46:29] very

[00:46:30] satisfying

[00:46:30] it's

[00:46:33] to

[00:46:34] feel

[00:46:35] that

[00:46:36] I

[00:46:36] created

[00:46:37] something

[00:46:37] in the

[00:46:38] play

[00:46:38] and

[00:46:38] that

[00:46:39] we

[00:46:39] created

[00:46:39] something

[00:46:40] in

[00:46:40] this

[00:46:40] movie

[00:46:41] that

[00:46:41] is

[00:46:43] complex

[00:46:43] enough

[00:46:44] that

[00:46:45] it

[00:46:45] can

[00:46:45] be

[00:46:45] discovered

[00:46:46] by

[00:46:46] future

[00:46:47] generations

[00:46:48] who

[00:46:51] are

[00:46:52] able

[00:46:52] to

[00:46:52] relate

[00:46:53] to

[00:46:53] aspects

[00:46:55] even

[00:46:56] that

[00:46:56] are

[00:46:56] different

[00:46:57] than

[00:46:58] the

[00:46:59] original

[00:46:59] audience

[00:47:00] may

[00:47:00] have

[00:47:01] gravitated

[00:47:02] towards

[00:47:02] that's

[00:47:04] you know

[00:47:04] incredibly

[00:47:05] satisfying

[00:47:05] and

[00:47:07] the

[00:47:08] fact

[00:47:10] has

[00:47:11] I

[00:47:12] mean

[00:47:12] we

[00:47:12] did

[00:47:12] it

[00:47:12] again

[00:47:13] on

[00:47:13] Broadway

[00:47:13] it's

[00:47:14] become

[00:47:14] an

[00:47:14] opera

[00:47:15] it's

[00:47:15] actually

[00:47:15] being

[00:47:16] done

[00:47:16] at

[00:47:16] the

[00:47:16] barbican

[00:47:17] this

[00:47:18] Friday

[00:47:19] night

[00:47:22] and

[00:47:23] is

[00:47:26] it's

[00:47:26] just

[00:47:27] nice

[00:47:27] to grab

[00:47:28] something

[00:47:28] that's

[00:47:28] able

[00:47:29] to have

[00:47:29] a long

[00:47:30] life

[00:47:30] I

[00:47:31] feel

[00:47:32] like

[00:47:32] if

[00:47:32] this

[00:47:34] might

[00:47:34] be

[00:47:34] an

[00:47:34] opportunity

[00:47:35] to

[00:47:36] as

[00:47:37] you

[00:47:37] say

[00:47:37] set

[00:47:37] the

[00:47:38] record

[00:47:38] straight

[00:47:39] and

[00:47:40] that

[00:47:41] I

[00:47:41] can

[00:47:41] tell

[00:47:41] a

[00:47:42] story

[00:47:42] that

[00:47:43] I've

[00:47:44] never

[00:47:44] told

[00:47:44] before

[00:47:47] about

[00:47:48] the

[00:47:50] search

[00:47:51] for

[00:47:51] directors

[00:47:55] so

[00:47:56] now

[00:47:56] we go

[00:47:57] back

[00:47:57] to

[00:47:57] 89

[00:47:58] or

[00:47:59] 90

[00:47:59] right

[00:48:00] after

[00:48:00] the

[00:48:00] play

[00:48:01] when

[00:48:01] the

[00:48:01] play

[00:48:01] is still

[00:48:02] running

[00:48:02] on

[00:48:02] Broadway

[00:48:02] it's

[00:48:03] running

[00:48:03] in

[00:48:03] London

[00:48:05] David

[00:48:06] Geffen

[00:48:06] has

[00:48:06] optioned

[00:48:07] the

[00:48:07] film

[00:48:07] rights

[00:48:07] and

[00:48:09] I

[00:48:10] was

[00:48:10] interested

[00:48:11] in

[00:48:11] Milos

[00:48:11] Forman

[00:48:12] but

[00:48:12] I

[00:48:13] was

[00:48:13] also

[00:48:13] interested

[00:48:14] in

[00:48:15] Neil

[00:48:15] Jordan

[00:48:16] so

[00:48:17] Eiko

[00:48:18] Ishioka

[00:48:19] who

[00:48:20] designed

[00:48:21] M

[00:48:22] Butterfly

[00:48:22] on

[00:48:23] Broadway

[00:48:23] and

[00:48:24] who

[00:48:26] subsequently

[00:48:27] went on

[00:48:27] to

[00:48:28] I mean

[00:48:28] she won

[00:48:28] an Oscar

[00:48:29] for

[00:48:29] Dracula

[00:48:31] she became

[00:48:31] a very

[00:48:32] prominent

[00:48:34] costume

[00:48:34] designer

[00:48:35] on

[00:48:35] for

[00:48:36] film

[00:48:36] as

[00:48:36] well

[00:48:37] so

[00:48:37] Eiko

[00:48:39] knew

[00:48:40] Neil

[00:48:40] Jordan

[00:48:41] and

[00:48:42] arranged

[00:48:42] a

[00:48:42] lunch

[00:48:43] we

[00:48:43] had

[00:48:43] a

[00:48:43] lunch

[00:48:43] in

[00:48:43] London

[00:48:45] and

[00:48:45] got

[00:48:46] along

[00:48:46] really

[00:48:47] well

[00:48:47] and

[00:48:47] I

[00:48:48] really

[00:48:48] liked

[00:48:48] him

[00:48:49] and

[00:48:49] I

[00:48:49] think

[00:48:50] he

[00:48:50] liked

[00:48:51] me

[00:48:52] and

[00:48:53] we

[00:48:53] got

[00:48:53] to

[00:48:53] the

[00:48:53] point

[00:48:54] where

[00:48:54] he

[00:48:55] we

[00:48:55] were

[00:48:55] both

[00:48:56] talking

[00:48:56] about

[00:48:56] okay

[00:48:56] so

[00:48:56] what

[00:48:56] are

[00:48:57] you

[00:48:57] working

[00:48:57] on

[00:48:57] now

[00:48:58] and

[00:48:59] I

[00:48:59] told

[00:48:59] him

[00:48:59] about

[00:48:59] a

[00:48:59] movie

[00:49:00] that

[00:49:00] I

[00:49:00] was

[00:49:00] working

[00:49:00] on

[00:49:01] and

[00:49:03] he

[00:49:03] told

[00:49:04] me

[00:49:04] the

[00:49:05] story

[00:49:06] that

[00:49:06] he

[00:49:06] was

[00:49:06] working

[00:49:06] on

[00:49:07] about

[00:49:09] an

[00:49:10] IRA

[00:49:12] that

[00:49:13] was

[00:49:13] set

[00:49:13] in

[00:49:13] the

[00:49:13] world

[00:49:14] of

[00:49:14] the

[00:49:14] IRA

[00:49:16] way

[00:49:16] but

[00:49:17] at

[00:49:17] that

[00:49:17] point

[00:49:18] it

[00:49:18] didn't

[00:49:18] have

[00:49:19] a

[00:49:19] gender

[00:49:20] switch

[00:49:20] in

[00:49:21] it

[00:49:22] and

[00:49:23] so

[00:49:23] I

[00:49:25] had

[00:49:27] I

[00:49:27] then

[00:49:28] suggested

[00:49:29] Neil

[00:49:29] Jordan

[00:49:29] to

[00:49:30] David

[00:49:31] Geffen

[00:49:32] and

[00:49:32] David

[00:49:32] for

[00:49:32] whatever

[00:49:33] reason

[00:49:33] wasn't

[00:49:34] interested

[00:49:35] in

[00:49:35] Neil

[00:49:35] at

[00:49:36] the

[00:49:36] time

[00:49:36] which

[00:49:37] is

[00:49:37] sort

[00:49:37] of

[00:49:37] interesting

[00:49:38] because

[00:49:38] Neil

[00:49:38] Jordan

[00:49:39] ended

[00:49:39] up

[00:49:39] directing

[00:49:39] a lot

[00:49:40] of

[00:49:40] things

[00:49:40] for

[00:49:40] David

[00:49:40] Geffen

[00:49:41] so

[00:49:42] Neil

[00:49:43] didn't

[00:49:44] end up

[00:49:44] directing

[00:49:45] M

[00:49:46] Butterfly

[00:49:47] and

[00:49:47] at

[00:49:47] some

[00:49:48] point

[00:49:48] while

[00:49:49] we were

[00:49:49] in

[00:49:49] post

[00:49:50] with

[00:49:50] M

[00:49:50] Butterfly

[00:49:50] we

[00:49:51] start

[00:49:51] to

[00:49:51] hear

[00:49:51] about

[00:49:51] this

[00:49:52] movie

[00:49:52] called

[00:49:52] The

[00:49:52] Crying

[00:49:53] Game

[00:49:54] and

[00:49:55] The

[00:49:56] Crying

[00:49:56] Game

[00:49:56] gets

[00:49:57] released

[00:49:57] before

[00:49:58] M

[00:49:59] Butterfly

[00:50:00] and

[00:50:00] so

[00:50:01] a few

[00:50:01] years

[00:50:01] later

[00:50:02] I

[00:50:02] asked

[00:50:02] Ako

[00:50:04] you

[00:50:05] know

[00:50:05] if

[00:50:05] you

[00:50:05] ever

[00:50:05] seen

[00:50:05] Neil

[00:50:05] George

[00:50:07] could

[00:50:07] you

[00:50:07] just

[00:50:08] ask

[00:50:08] I

[00:50:09] mean

[00:50:09] did

[00:50:09] this

[00:50:09] have

[00:50:09] anything

[00:50:10] to

[00:50:10] do

[00:50:10] with

[00:50:11] the

[00:50:12] fact

[00:50:12] that

[00:50:12] The

[00:50:13] Crying

[00:50:13] Game

[00:50:14] when

[00:50:14] it

[00:50:14] came

[00:50:15] out

[00:50:15] did

[00:50:16] have

[00:50:16] a

[00:50:17] gender

[00:50:18] switch

[00:50:18] and

[00:50:19] reveal

[00:50:19] in

[00:50:19] it

[00:50:20] did

[00:50:21] this

[00:50:21] have

[00:50:21] anything

[00:50:21] to do

[00:50:22] with

[00:50:22] his

[00:50:22] not

[00:50:22] getting

[00:50:23] M

[00:50:23] Butterfly

[00:50:24] and

[00:50:25] Ako

[00:50:26] eventually

[00:50:26] said

[00:50:27] to me

[00:50:27] well

[00:50:28] I

[00:50:28] asked

[00:50:28] Neil

[00:50:28] and

[00:50:29] he

[00:50:29] didn't

[00:50:29] say

[00:50:29] yes

[00:50:30] but

[00:50:30] he

[00:50:30] didn't

[00:50:30] say

[00:50:30] no

[00:50:32] very

[00:50:32] ambiguous

[00:50:33] so

[00:50:33] and

[00:50:34] you

[00:50:34] know

[00:50:34] if

[00:50:35] that

[00:50:35] was

[00:50:35] the

[00:50:35] case

[00:50:35] then

[00:50:38] fine

[00:50:38] I mean

[00:50:38] you

[00:50:39] can't

[00:50:39] people

[00:50:40] have

[00:50:40] been

[00:50:40] doing

[00:50:41] gender

[00:50:41] switch

[00:50:43] stories

[00:50:43] since

[00:50:44] the

[00:50:44] Greeks

[00:50:45] and

[00:50:45] ancient

[00:50:47] China

[00:50:47] and all

[00:50:48] that

[00:50:48] so it's

[00:50:48] not

[00:50:49] anything

[00:50:49] you can

[00:50:49] copyright

[00:50:50] but

[00:50:51] it's

[00:50:52] always

[00:50:52] been

[00:50:52] an

[00:50:54] interesting

[00:50:54] question

[00:50:54] in the

[00:50:55] back

[00:50:55] of my

[00:50:55] mind

[00:50:57] it

[00:50:58] it

[00:50:58] was a

[00:50:58] question

[00:50:58] I had

[00:50:59] about

[00:50:59] the

[00:51:00] reception

[00:51:00] to

[00:51:00] this

[00:51:01] you've

[00:51:01] already

[00:51:01] answered

[00:51:02] it

[00:51:02] there

[00:51:02] and

[00:51:02] a

[00:51:03] little

[00:51:03] bit

[00:51:03] of

[00:51:03] history

[00:51:03] there

[00:51:03] has

[00:51:04] been

[00:51:04] filled

[00:51:04] in

[00:51:05] on

[00:51:05] both

[00:51:06] films

[00:51:06] I think

[00:51:06] by the

[00:51:07] sounds

[00:51:07] of it

[00:51:07] and

[00:51:07] I

[00:51:07] think

[00:51:07] the

[00:51:07] last

[00:51:08] question

[00:51:08] I've

[00:51:08] got

[00:51:08] about

[00:51:09] M

[00:51:09] Butterfly

[00:51:09] before I

[00:51:10] slowly

[00:51:10] wrap

[00:51:10] this

[00:51:10] up

[00:51:10] and

[00:51:10] talk

[00:51:10] about

[00:51:10] a couple

[00:51:11] other

[00:51:11] quick

[00:51:11] things

[00:51:12] is

[00:51:13] just

[00:51:14] post

[00:51:15] script

[00:51:15] looking

[00:51:15] back

[00:51:16] on

[00:51:16] the

[00:51:17] film

[00:51:17] version

[00:51:18] of

[00:51:18] as

[00:51:18] you

[00:51:18] said

[00:51:19] earlier

[00:51:19] perhaps

[00:51:20] the

[00:51:20] biggest

[00:51:20] play

[00:51:21] you've

[00:51:21] written

[00:51:21] in

[00:51:21] your

[00:51:21] career

[00:51:22] so

[00:51:22] far

[00:51:23] seeing

[00:51:24] that

[00:51:24] on

[00:51:24] the

[00:51:24] big

[00:51:25] screen

[00:51:25] seeing

[00:51:25] that

[00:51:26] adaptation

[00:51:26] what

[00:51:26] are

[00:51:26] your

[00:51:26] thoughts

[00:51:27] on

[00:51:27] the

[00:51:27] film

[00:51:27] looking

[00:51:27] back

[00:51:27] on

[00:51:28] it

[00:51:49] made

[00:51:49] a

[00:51:49] beautiful

[00:51:49] picture

[00:51:52] it's

[00:51:53] different

[00:51:53] than

[00:51:53] mine

[00:51:53] which

[00:51:54] it

[00:51:55] should

[00:51:55] be

[00:51:56] it's

[00:51:56] you

[00:51:56] know

[00:51:56] mine

[00:51:57] is

[00:51:57] as we

[00:51:57] talked

[00:51:58] about

[00:51:58] earlier

[00:51:58] has

[00:51:59] more

[00:51:59] of

[00:51:59] an

[00:51:59] emphasis

[00:51:59] on

[00:52:00] the

[00:52:00] political

[00:52:01] but

[00:52:02] I

[00:52:02] do

[00:52:02] think

[00:52:02] that

[00:52:04] David's

[00:52:05] vision

[00:52:05] for

[00:52:06] the

[00:52:06] story

[00:52:06] has

[00:52:09] helped

[00:52:10] to

[00:52:10] make

[00:52:11] it

[00:52:19] this

[00:52:20] focus

[00:52:21] on

[00:52:22] the

[00:52:22] relationship

[00:52:23] itself

[00:52:24] and

[00:52:24] the

[00:52:24] intimate

[00:52:25] aspects

[00:52:26] of

[00:52:26] the

[00:52:27] dynamic

[00:52:27] between

[00:52:28] Soong

[00:52:29] and

[00:52:29] Gallimard

[00:52:30] is

[00:52:31] part

[00:52:32] of

[00:52:32] what

[00:52:33] helps

[00:52:34] it

[00:52:34] to

[00:52:34] speak

[00:52:35] to

[00:52:35] new

[00:52:36] audiences

[00:52:36] today

[00:52:37] that

[00:52:38] are

[00:52:38] much

[00:52:38] more

[00:52:39] conscious

[00:52:39] of

[00:52:40] gender

[00:52:40] fluidity

[00:52:41] and

[00:52:41] the

[00:52:41] fact

[00:52:42] that

[00:52:42] gender

[00:52:43] is

[00:52:43] a

[00:52:43] spectrum

[00:52:44] not

[00:52:44] a

[00:52:44] binary

[00:52:45] so

[00:52:46] I

[00:52:48] if

[00:52:49] anything

[00:52:49] I

[00:52:49] I

[00:52:50] probably

[00:52:50] grown

[00:52:50] to

[00:52:50] like

[00:52:51] the

[00:52:51] film

[00:52:51] more

[00:52:52] in

[00:52:52] the

[00:52:52] intervening

[00:52:53] years

[00:52:53] and

[00:52:54] I

[00:52:54] want

[00:52:54] to

[00:52:55] ask

[00:52:55] about

[00:52:55] the

[00:52:56] changes

[00:52:56] you

[00:52:56] made

[00:52:57] to

[00:52:57] the

[00:52:57] play

[00:52:57] version

[00:52:58] but

[00:52:59] before

[00:52:59] I

[00:52:59] do

[00:52:59] that

[00:52:59] before

[00:52:59] we

[00:53:00] leave

[00:53:00] the

[00:53:00] movie

[00:53:00] behind

[00:53:00] this

[00:53:01] is

[00:53:01] a

[00:53:01] spy

[00:53:01] movie

[00:53:02] podcast

[00:53:02] I

[00:53:02] just

[00:53:02] want

[00:53:02] to

[00:53:03] ask

[00:53:03] a

[00:53:04] lot

[00:53:04] of

[00:53:04] the

[00:53:04] spy

[00:53:05] craft

[00:53:05] in

[00:53:05] this

[00:53:05] movie

[00:53:06] I

[00:53:06] love

[00:53:06] how

[00:53:06] basically

[00:53:07] mundane

[00:53:07] it

[00:53:07] is

[00:53:08] if

[00:53:08] you

[00:53:08] had

[00:53:08] any

[00:53:08] influences

[00:53:09] that

[00:53:10] were

[00:53:10] inspiring

[00:53:11] the

[00:53:11] writing

[00:53:11] of

[00:53:11] the

[00:53:11] spy

[00:53:12] elements

[00:53:12] I

[00:53:13] would

[00:53:14] say

[00:53:14] number

[00:53:14] one

[00:53:15] I

[00:53:16] maybe

[00:53:17] am

[00:53:18] not

[00:53:18] particularly

[00:53:19] good

[00:53:20] at

[00:53:20] writing

[00:53:21] a

[00:53:21] spy

[00:53:21] movie

[00:53:22] that

[00:53:22] has

[00:53:23] more

[00:53:23] intricate

[00:53:24] plotting

[00:53:24] so

[00:53:26] that

[00:53:26] was

[00:53:27] part

[00:53:27] of

[00:53:27] it

[00:53:28] but

[00:53:28] also

[00:53:28] the

[00:53:29] real

[00:53:29] case

[00:53:30] what

[00:53:30] I

[00:53:30] knew

[00:53:30] of

[00:53:31] it

[00:53:31] even

[00:53:31] when

[00:53:32] I

[00:53:32] wrote

[00:53:32] the

[00:53:32] original

[00:53:32] play

[00:53:33] and

[00:53:34] what

[00:53:34] we

[00:53:34] learned

[00:53:35] we

[00:53:35] started

[00:53:35] to

[00:53:35] learn

[00:53:35] a

[00:53:36] lot

[00:53:36] about

[00:53:36] the

[00:53:38] real

[00:53:38] spies

[00:53:39] Borsico

[00:53:40] and

[00:53:40] Shippeepu

[00:53:41] once the

[00:53:42] play was

[00:53:42] a hit

[00:53:42] because

[00:53:43] everybody

[00:53:43] started

[00:53:43] interviewing

[00:53:44] them

[00:53:46] and

[00:53:46] Borsico

[00:53:47] actually

[00:53:47] I

[00:53:48] then

[00:53:48] gave

[00:53:48] a

[00:53:49] percentage

[00:53:49] of the

[00:53:50] play

[00:53:50] to

[00:53:50] each

[00:53:51] of

[00:53:51] them

[00:53:51] and

[00:53:52] Borsico

[00:53:53] then

[00:53:54] really

[00:53:54] he

[00:53:55] alive

[00:53:56] but

[00:53:57] over

[00:53:58] the

[00:53:58] intervening

[00:53:58] decades

[00:53:59] has

[00:54:00] followed

[00:54:00] the

[00:54:01] play

[00:54:01] around

[00:54:02] to

[00:54:03] different

[00:54:03] cities

[00:54:03] where

[00:54:04] it

[00:54:04] premieres

[00:54:04] and

[00:54:04] he

[00:54:04] shows

[00:54:05] up

[00:54:05] and

[00:54:05] goes

[00:54:05] I'm

[00:54:05] the

[00:54:05] real

[00:54:05] guy

[00:54:06] and

[00:54:06] they

[00:54:06] take

[00:54:06] him

[00:54:06] up

[00:54:06] for

[00:54:07] drinks

[00:54:08] but

[00:54:09] the

[00:54:11] Borsico

[00:54:11] spine

[00:54:12] was also

[00:54:13] incredibly

[00:54:14] banal

[00:54:14] there

[00:54:25] along

[00:54:26] as

[00:54:26] a

[00:54:26] result

[00:54:27] of

[00:54:28] this

[00:54:28] whole

[00:54:31] series

[00:54:31] of

[00:54:31] imaginations

[00:54:32] well

[00:54:33] it

[00:54:33] had

[00:54:33] some

[00:54:33] like

[00:54:34] le

[00:54:34] car

[00:54:34] energy

[00:54:34] and

[00:54:35] I

[00:54:35] did

[00:54:35] appreciate

[00:54:35] it

[00:54:36] because

[00:54:36] it

[00:54:36] was

[00:54:36] fun

[00:54:37] to

[00:54:37] hang

[00:54:37] out

[00:54:37] in

[00:54:37] that

[00:54:38] world

[00:54:38] for

[00:54:38] a

[00:54:52] little

[00:54:55] what

[00:54:55] David

[00:54:55] did

[00:54:56] in

[00:54:56] the

[00:54:56] movie

[00:54:57] in

[00:54:58] terms

[00:54:59] of

[00:54:59] making

[00:55:00] the

[00:55:01] play

[00:55:01] less

[00:55:02] about

[00:55:02] a

[00:55:03] gender

[00:55:03] binary

[00:55:03] and

[00:55:04] more

[00:55:05] about

[00:55:06] gender

[00:55:06] fluidity

[00:55:07] and

[00:55:09] acknowledging

[00:55:09] the

[00:55:12] real

[00:55:13] feelings

[00:55:14] and

[00:55:16] love

[00:55:17] and

[00:55:19] how

[00:55:20] all

[00:55:21] romantic

[00:55:21] relationships

[00:55:24] to some

[00:55:25] exist

[00:55:25] to some

[00:55:26] extent

[00:55:26] exist

[00:55:26] in

[00:55:27] their

[00:55:27] own

[00:55:27] hermetically

[00:55:27] sealed

[00:55:28] world

[00:55:30] I

[00:55:30] think

[00:55:31] that

[00:55:31] the

[00:55:32] play

[00:55:32] moves

[00:55:33] more

[00:55:33] in

[00:55:33] that

[00:55:33] direction

[00:55:34] and

[00:55:34] it

[00:55:34] happens

[00:55:35] to

[00:55:35] dovetail

[00:55:37] with

[00:55:38] David's

[00:55:39] vision

[00:55:40] more

[00:55:42] consistently

[00:55:43] now

[00:55:44] I'm

[00:55:45] conscious

[00:55:45] of

[00:55:45] your

[00:55:46] time

[00:55:46] and

[00:55:47] I've

[00:55:47] got

[00:55:47] two

[00:55:47] big

[00:55:47] questions

[00:55:48] I

[00:55:48] can't

[00:55:48] let

[00:55:48] you

[00:55:48] go

[00:55:49] without

[00:55:49] asking

[00:55:50] and

[00:55:50] that

[00:55:51] is

[00:55:51] firstly

[00:55:51] as I

[00:55:52] mentioned

[00:55:52] at the

[00:55:52] top

[00:55:53] you've

[00:55:53] got a

[00:55:53] play

[00:55:53] on

[00:55:54] Broadway

[00:55:54] at

[00:55:54] the

[00:55:54] moment

[00:55:54] it's

[00:55:55] the

[00:55:55] New York

[00:55:55] Times

[00:55:55] critic

[00:55:56] pick

[00:55:56] got

[00:55:57] rave

[00:55:57] reviews

[00:55:58] yellow

[00:55:58] face

[00:55:59] what

[00:55:59] can

[00:55:59] you

[00:55:59] tell

[00:55:59] us

[00:55:59] about

[00:55:59] it

[00:56:00] and

[00:56:00] I

[00:56:00] know

[00:56:00] it's

[00:56:00] got

[00:56:01] a

[00:56:01] run

[00:56:02] coming

[00:56:02] to

[00:56:02] a

[00:56:02] close

[00:56:03] I

[00:56:03] think

[00:56:03] later

[00:56:03] this

[00:56:03] year

[00:56:04] from

[00:56:04] what

[00:56:04] I've

[00:56:04] been

[00:56:54] I love every single thing about it already.

[00:56:57] I mean, the character is called DHH,

[00:57:00] and so I did participate in that protest.

[00:57:03] And then there's also an incident at the end of the play,

[00:57:06] which is also quite well documented in newspapers.

[00:57:11] So it's sort of a stage mockumentary.

[00:57:14] Well, we will put links in the show notes below

[00:57:17] for people who go click on that and find out more about the play.

[00:57:20] They can go to the website, get some tickets.

[00:57:21] Thank you.

[00:57:22] And we run until November 24th on Broadway,

[00:57:26] starring Daniel Dae Kim.

[00:57:28] Oh, Daniel Dae Kim is fantastic.

[00:57:29] So there you go.

[00:57:30] And there'll be about a month before this coming out and ending.

[00:57:33] So go and get your tickets, folks,

[00:57:34] because if it's anything like M-Butterfly, we love that.

[00:57:36] It's getting our seal of approval.

[00:57:38] I have two final questions.

[00:57:39] One behind you is the M-Butterfly Tony sat on that wonderful shelf.

[00:57:44] Oh, yeah, it is.

[00:57:45] Yes.

[00:57:46] So, yes, somehow, once the pandemic started,

[00:57:50] my Zoom camera got set up in front of my ego wall.

[00:57:57] I wish I had one.

[00:57:59] Unfortunately, it's just film posters, which I didn't make.

[00:58:01] So I have nothing to offer the world.

[00:58:04] And my last question,

[00:58:06] this has been asked to everyone we've ever had on the show,

[00:58:08] coming up to 100 interviews now.

[00:58:11] We talk about spy movies here every week.

[00:58:13] David, I'm very curious.

[00:58:16] What is your favorite spy movie of all time?

[00:58:20] Oh, probably The Third Man.

[00:58:25] Oh, very nice.

[00:58:26] Which just had an anniversary as well.

[00:58:28] So that's very timely.

[00:58:29] Oh, I didn't even know that.

[00:58:31] Yeah, 80th anniversary.

[00:58:33] Wow.

[00:58:34] Yeah, that's a fantastic movie.

[00:58:36] We just revisited it ourselves.

[00:58:38] Yeah.

[00:58:39] You really can't go wrong with that one.

[00:58:41] You really can't.

[00:58:42] David, it's been absolutely wonderful

[00:58:44] to go back into the world of M Butterfly with you

[00:58:47] to set the record straight on a few things as well

[00:58:50] and uncover some new bits of this story.

[00:58:53] I'm glad we had this opportunity to speak to you.

[00:58:54] Thanks for having me on.

[00:58:56] It's been an absolute pleasure.

[00:58:57] Thank you, David.

[00:59:00] There you go, folks.

[00:59:01] That was our chat about M Butterfly with David Henry Huang.

[00:59:05] David, I hope you're listening.

[00:59:07] I want to thank you once again

[00:59:08] for taking the time to speak with us.

[00:59:10] We have set many records straight.

[00:59:12] I hope that Wikipedia page gets changed.

[00:59:16] And this was an absolute pleasure.

[00:59:18] And it's rare we get the chance to talk to someone

[00:59:21] who adapted their own work into a spy film.

[00:59:25] And so there was so much depth.

[00:59:27] I mean, this could have been like a three-hour chat

[00:59:29] just going through the minutia of M Butterfly,

[00:59:31] moment to moment.

[00:59:33] But I think we covered as much as we were able to.

[00:59:36] And there was just so much great insight

[00:59:38] just in terms of the differences

[00:59:40] between the play and the film

[00:59:42] and just the process of creating the film

[00:59:45] and how it was its own unique entity

[00:59:47] and stands alone in that regard.

[00:59:49] Absolutely.

[00:59:49] And I will just jump in before I sort of talk

[00:59:51] about the interview any further.

[00:59:52] If this is your first time checking out

[00:59:53] an interview here on SpyHards,

[00:59:55] we have close to 100 interviews

[00:59:57] with different filmmakers and actors

[00:59:59] over the last close to five years now.

[01:00:01] So make sure you hit the subscribe button

[01:00:03] and check out some of those interviews

[01:00:05] in our back catalog, there's a lot to jump into.

[01:00:07] But talking of M Butterfly,

[01:00:09] I mean, it's such a powerful film.

[01:00:11] And we've been trying to get this interview

[01:00:13] for a while now.

[01:00:14] And I'm so glad we got the opportunity

[01:00:16] to really take this film apart with him.

[01:00:18] I know we only had about an hour to talk to David,

[01:00:20] but I feel like we really got to the heart

[01:00:22] of M Butterfly, I think, in that discussion.

[01:00:25] And I don't think there's a better person

[01:00:26] to really talk to about that film

[01:00:29] than the man who came up with it.

[01:00:31] Yeah, and I would love to see this on the stage.

[01:00:33] Vancouver is not the world's greatest place

[01:00:36] if you want to see plays.

[01:00:38] There are some, but it may be a while

[01:00:42] before M Butterfly rolls into this town.

[01:00:45] But it's like the film really just,

[01:00:48] I thought, was so intriguing.

[01:00:49] And I love diving into the ambiguity of it.

[01:00:51] And I'm really intrigued to see the play

[01:00:55] because I think just hearing about

[01:00:57] the difference in the versions

[01:00:58] and also the fact that they were confident

[01:01:00] confident in the story they were telling

[01:01:02] and willing to kind of pull it away from the play,

[01:01:06] make it its own thing.

[01:01:07] And so that there is an actual difference

[01:01:09] versus examples.

[01:01:11] And there are so many from the history of Hollywood

[01:01:13] of you can see the film

[01:01:16] and you can go and see the play,

[01:01:17] but like the film version feels like

[01:01:19] they just filmed the play

[01:01:20] and made it look a little gussier,

[01:01:22] but it's not exactly something

[01:01:24] that feels cinematic and vibrant.

[01:01:26] Whereas M Butterfly does,

[01:01:27] and the performances are so subtle and nuanced

[01:01:30] in a way that just wouldn't work on the stage.

[01:01:34] And conversely, there's many examples of this,

[01:01:36] not only from plays, but from books,

[01:01:38] I think for spy movies,

[01:01:41] certainly from books or from real events

[01:01:43] that just get so sort of morphed

[01:01:46] by the time you get it

[01:01:46] to the feature film side of things

[01:01:48] that it almost looks nothing like the original text

[01:01:50] or the original bit of history.

[01:01:53] And I think David Cronenberg did a very good job

[01:01:55] and with David were putting the screenplay together

[01:01:57] of finding a middle ground

[01:01:59] between making changes,

[01:02:00] but making changes that serve the film.

[01:02:03] Yeah, no, 100%.

[01:02:05] And one of the things I thought

[01:02:06] was really encouraging about talking to David

[01:02:09] about this movie was hearing the story,

[01:02:11] first of all, about meeting with Neil Jordan

[01:02:13] to work on this film.

[01:02:15] But obviously the crying game was a big sensation.

[01:02:18] And this movie didn't perform particularly well

[01:02:21] at the box office

[01:02:21] and has more so gained legs over time.

[01:02:25] But in 1992 and 3,

[01:02:28] the idea of these two movies coming out

[01:02:30] close to each other felt like,

[01:02:32] well, only one can succeed.

[01:02:33] In the same way that years later,

[01:02:35] you'd have two volcano movies or something

[01:02:37] or two comet movies, right?

[01:02:38] And I think it is encouraging

[01:02:40] as much as we feel like progress moves

[01:02:42] very, very, very, very slowly,

[01:02:44] that I think nowadays,

[01:02:46] if these two movies came out

[01:02:47] within half a year of each other,

[01:02:49] it would not be regarded as,

[01:02:51] well, we can't watch one

[01:02:52] because we watched the other.

[01:02:53] It would feel like they both have a place

[01:02:54] in the marketplace

[01:02:55] and would be accepted on their own terms.

[01:02:58] And I think just getting that little nugget

[01:02:59] of information about the crying game

[01:03:01] and how the original version of that script

[01:03:04] didn't look as similar to when Butterfly

[01:03:06] as it did eventually,

[01:03:09] necessarily 100% confirmed.

[01:03:10] I think that's about as close

[01:03:12] as you're going to get to a confirmation

[01:03:14] of that being the case.

[01:03:16] And again, it's one of those things

[01:03:17] that we talk about it

[01:03:19] when we do these sort of post-script chats

[01:03:21] after our interview sometimes,

[01:03:24] that we get this little bit of nuggets

[01:03:25] that can almost recontextualize

[01:03:27] the view of a film post its release.

[01:03:33] And I'm amazed that we can get

[01:03:35] these bits of information

[01:03:36] from time to time

[01:03:36] and we find these nuggets

[01:03:38] and people are generous enough

[01:03:39] to share these stories with us.

[01:03:41] It always baffles me.

[01:03:42] But this is why I love doing these interviews.

[01:03:45] And, you know, I mean, okay,

[01:03:47] this isn't an interview about Goldeneye,

[01:03:50] so I can understand why the odd person

[01:03:53] who's a spy movie fan

[01:03:53] might not necessarily run to M. Butterfly.

[01:03:56] But this is the power of having these interviews

[01:03:59] and talking to these people

[01:04:00] who worked on films

[01:04:01] that aren't necessarily the mainstream film.

[01:04:04] because the thing is,

[01:04:05] Martin Campbell has been spoken to

[01:04:07] a billion times about Bond films.

[01:04:09] I don't know how many times

[01:04:11] David Henry Huang has been spoken to

[01:04:13] about the screenplay for M. Butterfly.

[01:04:16] Maybe the play,

[01:04:16] but certainly not the screenplay.

[01:04:18] And if we're one of the first to do that,

[01:04:20] this is the sort of good stuff

[01:04:21] you get from that.

[01:04:22] Well, exactly.

[01:04:23] And these are the interviews

[01:04:24] I'm always the most excited to do

[01:04:26] and the ones that have the most satisfaction

[01:04:28] because you feel like you're contributing

[01:04:29] to the larger discussion of the movie.

[01:04:32] And, you know, David was so eloquent

[01:04:33] in just discussing the whole process

[01:04:35] and the themes and the ideas of the film.

[01:04:37] And so it becomes this invaluable companion

[01:04:40] to watching the movie.

[01:04:41] Yeah, I mean,

[01:04:42] some of our interviews

[01:04:44] have been referenced in other media.

[01:04:45] We've had citations in books,

[01:04:48] citations in YouTube essays and stuff.

[01:04:50] Recently, Calvin Dyson,

[01:04:53] bless him,

[01:04:53] he's been on the show a bunch of times.

[01:04:55] We love Calvin here on SpyHards,

[01:04:56] but he featured our Jeff Kleeman

[01:04:58] and Denise Richards interviews,

[01:05:00] two of our most popular interviews

[01:05:01] and I think two of our best interviews

[01:05:03] on a recent discussion

[01:05:05] talking about Dr. Christmas Jones

[01:05:06] and sort of re-evaluating her

[01:05:08] in the world is not enough.

[01:05:10] And I don't mean to connect that

[01:05:10] with M Butterfly or anything,

[01:05:12] but it's just sort of talking about

[01:05:14] the power of these interviews

[01:05:15] and what they can really offer.

[01:05:16] And I'm so glad we get to do them.

[01:05:18] I'm so glad we got to talk about

[01:05:19] M Butterfly once again,

[01:05:21] because I'd hate for that

[01:05:21] to be the last time

[01:05:22] a couple of years ago

[01:05:23] we spoke about the film

[01:05:24] because I think it's such an important

[01:05:25] bit of spy media

[01:05:26] and that's why it made The Knocklist.

[01:05:28] And hopefully we have some opportunity

[01:05:30] in the future

[01:05:30] to cover it in some fashion again.

[01:05:33] David Cronenberg,

[01:05:34] we're coming for you.

[01:05:36] That's right.

[01:05:38] But on that button there, Cam,

[01:05:40] the question goes to you,

[01:05:42] what are we talking about next week?

[01:05:43] Well, Scott,

[01:05:44] definitely a change of pace,

[01:05:45] that's for sure.

[01:05:46] We are going to look

[01:05:48] at the 2020 family spy comedy,

[01:05:52] My Spy,

[01:05:53] starring Dave Bautista.

[01:05:55] It might be a bit

[01:05:56] of a tonal clash

[01:05:58] from Possession and M Butterfly,

[01:05:59] but that's what we do best

[01:06:01] here at SpyHards.

[01:06:02] We keep you guessing

[01:06:03] like all agents should.

[01:06:05] So your mission,

[01:06:06] should you choose

[01:06:06] to accept it, folks,

[01:06:07] is to join us next week

[01:06:09] as we team up

[01:06:10] with Dave Bautista

[01:06:11] to take a look

[01:06:12] at My Spy.

[01:06:14] Now, if you like

[01:06:15] what you heard on the show

[01:06:17] and you probably heard

[01:06:18] the ad in the middle,

[01:06:19] please consider joining us

[01:06:20] over on our Patreon,

[01:06:22] patreon.com

[01:06:23] slash spyhards.

[01:06:24] We try our best

[01:06:25] not to plug it too much

[01:06:26] during the episode,

[01:06:26] but any and every bit

[01:06:28] of support you guys

[01:06:29] can do for us

[01:06:30] is genuinely appreciated.

[01:06:31] It all just goes

[01:06:32] to keeping the lights

[01:06:33] on here at SpyHards.

[01:06:35] Cam and I

[01:06:36] don't take the money ourselves.

[01:06:37] It just goes into

[01:06:38] buying the website,

[01:06:39] buying the software

[01:06:40] that helps us edit the show

[01:06:41] and things like that.

[01:06:42] So we genuinely

[01:06:43] appreciate anything

[01:06:44] and everything you all can do.

[01:06:46] We know times are hard,

[01:06:47] so this show

[01:06:47] will always be free.

[01:06:49] Don't worry about that.

[01:06:51] But if you can support us,

[01:06:52] we would love it

[01:06:53] if you could.

[01:06:53] There are links

[01:06:54] in the show notes below.

[01:06:55] I do also want to make sure

[01:06:56] I mention before we close out,

[01:06:58] if you are in New York

[01:07:00] or you're close by,

[01:07:01] do consider checking out

[01:07:03] Yellowface.

[01:07:03] There'll be links

[01:07:04] in the show notes below.

[01:07:05] Help support friend

[01:07:06] of the show,

[01:07:06] David Henry Huang.

[01:07:07] It sounds like a great time.

[01:07:09] The New York critics

[01:07:10] clearly love it

[01:07:10] and I think you might

[01:07:11] just love it too.

[01:07:13] And to wrap us up finally,

[01:07:14] make sure you follow us

[01:07:15] discreetly on social media

[01:07:16] at SpyHards,

[01:07:17] that's S-P-Y-H-A-R-D-S.

[01:07:19] Wherever you get

[01:07:20] your social medias,

[01:07:21] we're probably there.

[01:07:22] But until next time, folks,

[01:07:25] you'll find Cam and I

[01:07:26] furiously typing an email

[01:07:28] to David Cronenberg's agent.