John Walsh on The Third Man: The Official Story of the Film - SpyMaster Interview #85

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to SpyHards Podcast, I'm Agent Scott and I'm Cam the Brevacitor

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: intrigued by the Zither.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We all are with Zither heads here.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, and I am intrigued.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Very intrigued, and we are continuing our celebration.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We had a summer of celebrations for our fourth birthday to our first live show, and we're

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: celebrating another birthday this week.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we are celebrating the 75th anniversary of the third man, the classic, 1949, film

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: noir Spy Thriller, directed by Carol Reed.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're not celebrating in the sense of having a full-on review.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We've brought a true expert on this week.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Joining us in just a few moments is Mr. John Walsh, who is releasing his book, The Third

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Man, the official story of the film on the 24th of September, Cam and I had a sneak peek

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: at the book.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's absolutely fantastic, and it tells the full story of the third man, we're going

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to get into it with John in just a minute, but you can also win a copy of the book.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to hear more about that stick around to the end of the show for some

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: more details, you can also find out more on Twitter, but Cam without further ado, let's

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: celebrate the third man in style.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Roll it.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Cam, you know, we love a spy movie here, and so we have no expertise, and we like

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: to bring in some experts.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And joining us is one hell of an expert celebrating one hell of a film.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: He is a two-time baffton nominate, he'll make it a best-selling author.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And his new book, The Third Man, the official story of the film is published on the 24th

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: of September.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, John.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Wash how are you?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm very well-guised, hello Scots, hello Cam.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, how are you doing?

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, very well, but I'm excited.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Got another book out, out the gates as it were, off the blocks, as a launch, you know,

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_03]: publishing people have different ways of doing these things, but it's new.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, the third man is a film we haven't actually ever talked about in our four

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and a bit years of doing spy hard spot casts amazingly.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We've never spoken about this film.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_03]: It's surprising because there's so many links and ties to James Bond to spy craft between

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: actors, technical people, the fact that he infleming and Graham Green, the writer of The Third

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Man, knew each other very well indeed.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, what a unique opportunity to just crack open that egg.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it feels like a movie that we talked to, you know, a lot of guests and we do a lot

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of interviews and people frequently cite this as one of their favorite spy films, but

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a movie that almost hangs on the side of the espionage genre because it's definitely

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: a very, you know, the whole setting of Vienna, post-war is like a hotbed of espionage,

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but the movie, I don't know that it necessarily counts as like a spy film.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very much like film noir.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, like what are your thoughts on that?

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it kind of isn't, you know, if we think that's much like north by northwest to where

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_03]: George Kaplan or Roger Sornhill was the accidental spy in that sort of narrative.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Holly Marston's in this film played by Joseph Kosson is a similar person, you know, he's unexpectedly

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_03]: arrived in Vienna.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: He's come to me, he's friend Harry Lyme, he discovers that Harry is dead and starts to

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: investigate in a kind of an amateur's sleuth way and he's kind of met with all sorts of blocks

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: between the British army represented by Trevor Howard and then locals.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So he's kind of an amateur's sleuth and I think amateur's sleuth is sometimes the best types.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I've been listening to some of your guys episodes on Condor Man and Ishhtar

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm just going to say, oh no, are the kind of, are the meat and potatoes of the narrative

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: world, you know, outside of James Bond who's like the professional spy, you know, amateur sleuth

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_03]: seem to be kind of scooping up all the other good films.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's very true. I can't believe we're being judged on our Condor Man and Ishhtar coverage,

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: but I, to be fair, I almost wouldn't want it any other way.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, sometimes it's great for films like Condor Man to be recognized, you know,

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03]: so shame it's, I rate Condor Man's got a great Henry Man scene in his school and yet there's

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: never been a blue ray release for the film Disney Plus don't have the film on their channel yet.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So haven't haven't got it as part of their archive, which is a shame.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's lots of great films and Ishhtar has been rediscovered as you rightly said in your,

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_03]: in your podcast. So if the third man didn't go through any sort of ignominious stage like that,

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_03]: but it was sort of, I won't say forgotten but it was less better remembered in the sort of

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_03]: things, but I would consider it a spy film definitely.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it definitely, you know, makes the great. I don't think there'll be any arguments from

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: my listeners that third man isn't a spy movie. But it is an interesting one of those sort of stories

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that isn't necessarily grounded in, you know, your protagonist is a full on, you know, double

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: those seven or he's lost in power as he is a man of mystery, that sort of thing. It is sort of the

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: wrong man in the wrong situation and then has to rise up to the challenge in this case to

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: go out what happened to Harry Lyme. But I want to take us back a little bit because I want to hear

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: about, I want to talk about third man with you sort of unpack it, but get us two to third man

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: for you. You know, why did this love of the film come from? What it sort of inspired you to want

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: to talk about the third man to do a book about it in the first place? Well, I've always been a fan

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: of the film. It used to be on on sort of wet Wednesday afternoon here in the UK. I first saw it when

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I was a student at the London Film School and they're quite a ropey print that they borrowed from

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: BFI, the British Film Institute and I thought, wow this is amazing. It's a wonderful sort of

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_03]: thriller which twists and turns and the more I found out about the director Carol Reed and then

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Alexander Corder and the behind-the-scenes kind of cuffuffles that went on. I thought, well,

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_03]: one day there should be a book in this and of course other people have written books

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_03]: about the third man in terms of what the film has to say so as being academic books and of course

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: what happened behind the scenes that has been sort of making of books before. But nothing in terms

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: of this size and scale and nothing officially, so for 75 years the rights holder

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: of the film has never allowed a license to be issued and the reason that makes a difference is

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_03]: because it means I can delve into all sorts of paperwork. I've got book covers of

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_03]: making of books on Conan the Barbarian, Escape from New York, Dr. Unitalics, Flashball and the

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and the Wikimann came from the same production company eventually as as the third man did

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_03]: but a few decades later under a different ownership. Studio Canal now owns most of these titles

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: that I've mentioned and they've retained lots of the paperwork, insurance materials,

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: the daily report sheets and the completion gap in the last incident where you can find out

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_03]: who's misbehaved and for how and for why. So to be able to sort of actually get things

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_03]: rights and come up with figure work and and reveal some of the behind-the-scenes kind of

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_03]: scrapes they were between the actors, the director, the two different producers on different

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_03]: size of the Atlantic in the film for different reasons pulling in opposite directions. I kind of thought

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_03]: that in some ways and this is a sacral, sacralidious thing to say that making of is perhaps even more

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: interesting than the film itself. So you know in some ways and I have been speaking to rights

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03]: holders about this in recent years about looking again at some of these films from a sort of

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: documentary drama perspective and maybe revisiting the stories of how these films are made,

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_03]: what it says about the film industry at the time. If look at Paramount plus is season series

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_03]: the offer which looked at the making of the godfather series from the early 70s, David Evans and

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Paramount Pictures and so on that worked extremely well for mainstream audience. So I think that

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_03]: these books potentially have those legs, but the third man was one that I don't think I could have

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: had published a few years ago because I think they might not have been within the publishing world

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and expectation that it would sell well enough. And after doing a few books here that have sold

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_03]: very well indeed and support from studio canal the right holders we thought now is the right time

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_03]: the film's getting a 75th anniversary re-shoot in 4K and it's it's right to kind of rub along side

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_03]: publishers like that someone else doing something that's even more risky so they can kind of throw

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_03]: their hat in the ring or their chips on the table and we kind of spun the dice on it.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well I was going to ask you because you know you've written books on Conan the barbarian

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Doctor Who the Wicker man was there any sort of pushback from your publisher saying like

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: we kind of get what you do like a lot of these are like cult films and very popular cult films

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: like the third man kind of exists a little bit outside of what typically you've been writing or

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: were they just like you know what we've liked or you've done before go nuts.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah it was that. Good because that's the best case.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Earlier on when I proposed Doctor Who is the book they felt that it would probably sell in the UK

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_03]: quite well but internationally possibly not and because all of my books are distributed worldwide

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_03]: by Tyson books and you know to all book shops you know small vendors big vendors Amazon sell

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03]: it has the world kind of worldwide platform so I think Doctor Who was the one that really

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: proved that if you pushed a book hard enough and had a good social media presence you can make

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_03]: itself and so it was easier it easier for them to say yes actually on on the third man they

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_03]: were keen to do this collaboration I think we were all on the same page some of the books I've

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_03]: pitched and some of the books they've offered and as we've kind of matured along together

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_03]: we've kind of melded into one so they kind of know what I'm thinking I kind of know what they

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_03]: they expect in terms of delivery so we've sort of merged together. And I wanted to ask you because

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you said you know you love the third man did you always love the third man was it a movie that

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: like the first time you saw it there was like a magic there or was it a movie that you know

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: for me there's been several classics where I watched it the first time when I'm young and I kind

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: of like okay and it's the revisits that really win me over. Yeah I think I liked it when I saw

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_03]: it but I never thought I'd do a book about that one day so was when I found out more about

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_03]: power read and Alexander Corder and David O. Seltsnik you know the King of Hollywood at that time

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and I found out wow is that what really happened on the third man you'd never have thought

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_03]: the film is quite polite in many ways and it was only when I discovered more of the behind

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_03]: scenes aspects to it when I rewatched the film I was watching it then with fresh eyes and I was

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_03]: like wow so that's not awesome well in that scene and in this scene and in the other scene it's

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_03]: the director the assistant director standing in film wearing a coat with hangers in the shoulders

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_03]: to fill his out. So as the sort of the the myth of the film fell apart as I found out more about it

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I would revisit it with new eyes and most of the people who read my books they are I've rewatched

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: the film now I'll never think of it again in the same way whether it's Doctor Who flashboard

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: and so on. Flash Gordon had three times the budget of the first Star Wars film and yet there is no

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_03]: motion control on any of the spaceship special effects yeah it's like how's that possible

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and the flying is not as good as Superman the movie from 1979 and yet this film came out in 1990

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_03]: yet they had as a comparable budget to Superman I always want to know the answers to those

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_03]: questions and I got them and put them in the book there was similar questions I wanted answered

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: the third man so you kind of work up the shopping list of gosh if I ever got a dinner party

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_03]: fantasy dinner party with all these people around the table what would you ask Alfred Hitchcock or

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Stanley Kubrick and so on and so in a way these books helped me satisfy some of that obsessive

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_03]: wishlist questions I have about why did that happen and surely that's not right

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: well you kind of teased it right there what were some of those burning questions you needed to

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: have answered what was David O'Sellsney undoubtedly the king of Hollywood doing

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_03]: working on a co-production on a medium to average low budget European feature film

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_03]: which was being filmed in Vienna because Sir Alexander Corder the British Hungarian producer had

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: a funny kind of stuck there after the war you couldn't easily kind of do a bank transfer

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: so had to film something in situ on a story that's you know it's about penicillin

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that's been watered down and it's like a boy meets girl girl is disinterested in everyone

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Cellsney didn't like the title didn't like the casting didn't like wells wanted carry grants

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_03]: had a leader valiant Joseph cotton under contract to himself as it was toying with whether they'd

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_03]: be involved or not as I was saying that even thinking wasting his time on what's a minor film

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_03]: it turns out of course David O'Sellsney who's a brilliant man not to take anything

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_03]: away from him was going through a financial crisis at the time was hoping to hook his wagon

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_03]: to Corder and make some money in dig himself out of the financial hole he got himself into

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_03]: despite making the most successful film in cinema history with Gone With The Wind

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and following it up with Rebecca as well which was best picture so two best pictures back

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: to back so that was always a curio to me and how Graham Green got involved and why he made the

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03]: film the way he did it was very much Corder who drove the story into Vienna not Green Green was

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_03]: out there and was frustrated he'd been sent there by Corder he was doing it for the money

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_03]: wells didn't want to be in the picture he was doing it for the money and wells were possible

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: tried not to be in the picture so we go through all of those sort of bizarre questions of

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_03]: if it's one of awesome wells most famous film why did he not really want to be there what was

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: going on and of course wells had the worst of all addictions which I've had myself and you know

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_03]: when people are home now thinking oh why what addiction could that be it's the worst most expensive

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_03]: self destructive addiction anyone can have finance in your own film projects with your own money

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and you know it sent poor old awesome wells into a tail spin a life lived like a kind of a

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_03]: both at the same time but all those questions we try and straighten out the myths the the

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_03]: untruth as well about the supposedly awesome wells is inspiration in the ferris wheel sequence

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and the kuku clock speech which he claims he came up with which is only partly true we

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: which straightened out the history on that for previous books like the Wickerman where Christopher

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Lee for many years went around defending the producers of British line films might daily and

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Barry Spikings over what really happened to the final cut we were able to kind of put that record

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_03]: straight much to the frustration of fans who are holding onto the coat tails of

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Christopher Lee's memory and the terrible story he told about the destruction of that film

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_03]: but for the official versions we kind of need to get it right so these are more like public

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_03]: inquiries in the sense so I gather together all the witnesses and all the statements and trying

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_03]: say look we the rights holder through me think this is the truth and I hope for the third man that

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_03]: we've managed to do that and you know it's interesting it's 75 years old I think it's the oldest

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_03]: film I've written about and yet it still offers up secrets all these years later she's quite spooky

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: well I think it sort of segue specifically into one thing I wanted to talk about because you know

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: interview series we do ask by master interviews here on the show what we try to do is set

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: the record straight from people who were there and hear their stories about film and trying and trying

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: get that into the public record so it's a thing that I have a lot of pride in doing it's nice

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: to see you do too in sort of you know getting the story straight and putting it out there and and

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: fact checking as well I think is very important part of all this but putting these books together

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: because you talk about like the you know it wasn't awesome well's casting the shadow it was

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the champion in it with a coat hanger on it and like stuff like that I was reading the book

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and it gave ironically the third man a second life for me you know you've just sort of like you

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: cast a whole new shadow over the whole thing by just that little secret alone and there's

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: hundreds more in the book and if you're a fan of the third man I suggest picking up a

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: copy the book it's absolutely worth it deserves to be on your shelf if you love the book

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: love the film you don't love the film if you love filmmaking it's wanted to pick up but you know

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: these are works of passion um works of love for cinema and I want to know because you this isn't

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: your first official story of the film book how do you go about putting these these books together

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_03]: well there's kind of two things that happened that the kind of the practical side of things

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and the expectation from the publisher where I kind of create what's called a treatment

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and the treatment is very much based on when I'm working for television and making a documentary

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_03]: series you don't know really what you're going to guess until you start filming and yet you're

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: expecting the commitment in terms of money up front so the treatment kind of talks about what we hope

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_03]: to find and if we find it how we will treat that information at an end goal so kind of if you

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_03]: like a wishlist of of of moments so within the book I recreate that as chapters you know if this was

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: we are playing fantasy publisher here in fantasy author this is what I'd like to be but tell you

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_03]: the publisher I have found and so I'll create as it were a kind of a spying for the book that

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_03]: carries you through all aspects from beginning the middle of the end and sort of legacy aspects

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_03]: but then actually finding that information verifying it is um is really the task and the book

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_03]: stays in my head and all the pieces move around along with the images because I'm often sent

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_03]: an enormous data dump of lots of photographs almost always we're just reference numbers on them

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_03]: so you're having to spot if it's awesome wells or if it's Trevor Howard fine we can we can do that

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_03]: but what would its minor players from Vienna or crew members there's only one member of the

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: crew still alive from the third man there's no cast left just one crew member or there is one cast

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: boy the two year old boy the baby he gets a two page spread which I think is just great

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I just turn that page I was like wow that kid's getting the treatment so and so it's that so

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I kind of work through to find what's out there and and then sort of trying shape it in terms of

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_03]: the images we've got because these books have to sell in terms of their visuals so it was all that

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_03]: like pull and tug against the images against the text because on some of them I wanted bigger

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_03]: books on Doctor Who in the Darling so I wanted a much bigger book I wanted it to be two books

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_03]: because it's two movies yeah so it's a case of trying to fit into what the publisher expects

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03]: they'll look at what I'm doing if they want to in the in the beginning they were looking quite

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_03]: closely now they looked let's closely and why offer up chapters and pieces as I'm doing it so

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_03]: it's going for the third man we had involved with Graham Greens actual family so it was

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_03]: important that we got this right and because there's some sensitivities around the fact that Graham

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Greens stayed in touch intentionally with this country's biggest tracer Kim Philby it was

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_03]: important that we were sensitive to the people who are alive and Philby's family who still live here

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I was in touch with Kim Philby's grand also and I mean touch obviously with Graham Greens

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_03]: surviving family so when there's existing contributors who are still alive like Sam Jones on

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Flash Gordon and there's contentions around his story it's making sure that contributors

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_03]: feel looked after and that the publisher gets what they need but the public can rely on the fact

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_03]: that it's true and verified and so the book just stays in my head it's really hard to get the

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_03]: book back out again it's like learning lines for a play once you have them in there you kind of

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_03]: they're kind of tassels on your brain somewhere so the pieces keep moving around along with

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_03]: the pictures I speak to the fan base if bands give me interesting information pieces that always

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_03]: affects things and you kind of slot them in but it's just important to hit schedules and

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_03]: hit deadlines I've never missed in terms of film and TV or publishing any deadlines and I

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_03]: all think like say I like to see a deadline with past I think Douglas Adams famously said that

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_03]: inspires him to get on with things knowing does it delivery days actually can make you quite

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_03]: anxious and makes me anxious so I always make sure that I get asked this a lot of Q&A's how do you

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_03]: start with a book of this size and I said well I think of their old Hindu proverb how do you eat

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_03]: an elephant and it's one bite at a time so once you can think of the book as a whole I think it's

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_03]: best to concentrate on what you can do that day but always do something that day even if you

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_03]: don't feel like it or you have a headache the writers block doesn't come into it you need to work

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and you need to work often because it's through small bites you'll complete the 50,000 or however many

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03]: words is you need to do for that particular projects well I was gonna ask because you talk about

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: the process of putting these books together has there ever been one where it was a movie you

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: were passionate about and you wanted to do something with and you just got to a point where you're like

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_03]: you know I just don't have enough here for a book no but I have pitched books which the

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_03]: publishers like nah we're not doing that as a um uh the lobby is that if they can get me the license so

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_03]: we have that conversation first can you get me the license for this or for that and then if they

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_03]: can get the license would the book sell and then you in a sometimes in a position where some of

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03]: the big rights holders will say well give you five licenses or ten licenses at once not one because

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_03]: the paperwork for their means that they'd have to keep revisiting and so on but I mean that's

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_03]: not practical for a publisher to buy five or ten licenses and particularly they have time limits

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: the license is like a reverse option and the publisher needs to set as many books as possible

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_03]: in that five year period to make money back because lots of books out there I want to write and

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_03]: it's and then they are looking at more seriously at my big wish list which keeps getting bigger

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and this is the thing that publishers have learned is that an unsacceled film can make a successful

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_03]: book and if you think of his an example one it's one I've pitched and I hope you don't chuck me

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_03]: off from this one of your podcasts if I say it but I fancy doing how with the duck as a book

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah and how would the duck as had a 4K remastered by universal pictures and it's the best measure

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_03]: to say you know what there's not only a secondary audience out there for it there is an audience

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_03]: that'll come back again because it's in 4K not everyone's cup of tea but there are lots of uns

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_03]: successful films that have amazing back stories that would make fabulous books kind or bad perhaps

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: condolman definitely why not you know there's a whole because a bunch of Disney ones that I want

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and I've put together my list of Disney 5 because they are the company that have said

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_03]: we'll issue five licenses at once but not one at a time so it's like oh okay

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I changed letters with Bob Iger over my first book and he was super nice about it

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a trustee of the Ray Harry House and Foundation and with the biggest animation archive

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_03]: outside of the Walt Disney Company but we have just three trustees I'm one and one member of staff

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: where the Walt Disney Company has like battalions of staff so we exchange nice letters which

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: was really sweet is I'm just hoping that the great local motor chase from 1956 is on your list

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: of five Disney films because that's another one that's in the end here to my heart

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not but I can happy to put that on there it's definitely worth a little visit I'd say for

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone just if you like Feds Parker just just chuck it on why not but you know you talk about the

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: put in these books together and you know you seem to have got it down to a bit of an art now

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: when you're in the process of putting them together you have to see the third manager

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: target this time what is something that you have found about the third man through going through

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: these archives and reading these stories and during interviews I'm Ash not talking to people

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: what sort of the most surprising fact about the film that you stumbled across

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_03]: the amounts of we just talked about the story people who didn't want to be involved

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_03]: grain green didn't want to be there and well as didn't want to just knighted itself Nick

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Joe Carson knew that he wasn't first choice Robert Mitcham's name was thrown around

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Alida Valley she kind of was there by default because no one else was available at that time

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_03]: so there was a lot of kind of it was a film of convenience for the time no one realized it was

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_03]: going to be this great classic but as certain distance came from the film two years three years

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_03]: five years afterwards people look back and realize oh it was a creative high point for them no

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_03]: for you as well so Carol Reed never reached the heights again and it was a moment of

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_03]: realisation many years later for them when they were being interviewed and there were

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_03]: their films are being reassessed they realized oh that was a that was a creative and commercial

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_03]: high point for us all and the realisation happened at different times at different points

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_03]: people's careers even though Carol Reed went on to win an Oscar for Oliver after James Bond

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_03]: director my favourite Bond director Louis Gilbert had to back out of Oliver he rang up to Carol

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Reed and said can you take this project on otherwise it may get cancelled and Reed walks straight

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_03]: up the art of the Oscars and one best director from it to his skill but must have been for you

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_03]: oh it could only imagine so lots of moments like that and as you say lots of insights into

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_03]: what could have happened what should have happened they got through three cats at the time

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_03]: the health and safety on the film didn't really exist as it does today there was a big fire at

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Shepard and Studios in the edit room so instead of wasting for the fire brigade they grabbed people

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_03]: from different places including a new kid who just started in the mail room sent him in

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_03]: said don't worry about yourself get the film out that was John Glenn, Future Bond editor and Bond

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: director so I know you guys have interviewed him I've listened to episode two on that so

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Oliver film show little regard for people's welfare for their safety and yet managed to avoid

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: any major catastrophes as well which is quite surprising but I always try and go in with my list of

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_03]: questions of I need to find answers for these and I think that helps because if you're a real fan

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_03]: you're only buying these books if you know the film's really well you don't want to read

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_03]: as a puff piece that reads like a kind of a press kit that lists out people's previous credits

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and talks in glowing terms about the film we know that were here were were spending nearly

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_03]: 40 pounds on the book tell me something I don't know and so the pressure to reveal is quite high

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_03]: but also visually finding unpublished images do you publish the best photo or the photos

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: that haven't been seen before which are the best ones you know if you're a big fan of a certain

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Bond film or as I am with with a doctor who in the Daleks I knew if it was something unpublished

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I knew it instantly when I saw it I was like wow did you see? look at that but in terms of someone

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_03]: flicking through the book do you want them to see the best photos or the most unpublished ones

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_03]: because they're not always the same because the best ones, the ones that are used for publicity

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_03]: purposes are the ones that people know over and over and yet then not always that satisfying to

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_03]: see in a big sort of layout book of an art book like this so there's all those challenges as well

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and on the film you don't know that well how do you know if it's unpublished where you're checking?

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that's an excellent point and I I want to circle back to what you're talking about with uh

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: John Glenn I remember when we talked to John Glenn he was telling us a story about

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Christopher Walken and how people had to keep track of Christopher Walken because he just kept

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: disappearing and I thought of that story when I was reading your book and all of the

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: dealings with Orson Wells like were you aware of that going in and how much fun was it to kind of

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: discover along the way of how difficult it was to get Orson Wells actually before the camera.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Well I kind of knew he was elusive and I thought because having worked with actors myself

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_03]: there can be elusive for different reasons and I thought it might have been for this reason

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_03]: that he was anxious he felt that the parts wasn't something he could achieve and so they had to

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_03]: really drag him to the set because he had a lack of confidence about playing this part

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and the fact the film hinge on his character so that everyone's talking about Harry, where's Harry?

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And so there was enormous pressure no it was absolutely not that's as tall it was simply that

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_03]: he didn't really want to be there he did want the money he didn't want to spend too much time

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_03]: he's definitely not going into a sewer so they had to rebuild the sewer down at Sheppton Studios

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_03]: for him so that and the amount of money he got paid which we've confirmed now and his um

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_03]: regrets afterwards they didn't ask for a percentage because he could have got one because

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_03]: there was so locked into having him he would have earned a lot more from it but it showed how um

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_03]: little faith I think he had in the project he knew it was a good film lots of good films have

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_03]: come and gone you know Carol reading Graham Green have made films together with corridor and

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_03]: great actors we're not talking about them today there's no book on the horizon there's no fork

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_03]: a remaster coming you know it costs more money to remaster this film um by studio canal than

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_03]: it costs to make in its day so it's it's kind of what's kind of frustrating is that if you're

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_03]: finding out so many amazing facts it's hard not to just list them all out and say look these are

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_03]: top 50 amazing facts in this book here are some photos to go with it um you need to try and

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_03]: send it more in a documentary form you know introduce things to people without running off

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_03]: and and getting ahead of yourself if we think of television documentaries now they do something

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and a half a last sort of 15 years they put up a bumper on the front so after the station

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_03]: the idea comes often it says now an episode of this you start to see aspects of what you're

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: about to see in the next hour more or less the best bits with a voice over explaining why you're here

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I always try and go past the bumper straight to the opening title because I don't want to see

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_03]: the best bits before I've watched the documentary with readers I found they like to be introduced

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03]: much more slowly to things and it needs to be a slower burn so when things are revealed in chapters

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and they kept in their own lane it hasn't effect but rather than it's seem like separate articles

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_03]: they have to all connect and not just connect in a narrative linear fashion people need to

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03]: connect emotionally with it they need to bring the information from wrong the opening chapters

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_03]: through to the shoots the post production to get a real sense of the the task it was putting

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_03]: it together people have said to me when they read my books blindly what a cuffuffle you never think

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_03]: so watching the film it's only an hour and a half whether it's the wicker man or flashball

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_03]: think gosh the trouble people went to to make films and I said well it still happens today but

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_03]: people don't widely talk about it you know on modern films and if you were to get one of the recent

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: superhero films with someone's wearing spandex and all that we know the sort of films we're talking

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03]: about I could never do a book like this you'd never be allowed to talk about what went wrong

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and who had a mood and who didn't turn up and who was playing games and which producer was

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: trying to get one over on the other that would be amazing wouldn't be allowed yeah I remember there

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: was that series of making of the original Star Wars trilogy that were fantastic and they brought

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: the author back to doing for the force awakens and put the book together and then Disney was like

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: no we don't want these stories out there so that book is in a vault somewhere yeah was that Jonathan

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Johnson Rinslow I knew John it was yeah I kind of hooked up with him I've kind of year and a half before

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_03]: he died and when I when I started doing my making of books he's got a fabulous Sam with I haven't

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_03]: seen it through Tash and the making of the shining it's called a shining scrap book and I think

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_03]: it's £100 but it's like vast it's like a it's like a couple of bibles and they all together

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_03]: so that's worth a look see but no you're quite right there Cam if you're able to have free and full

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_03]: access to everyone because there are so many interested parties in in in what a court sort of

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_03]: that the very reluctant to speak freely so maybe in the 50 years like book can come out then

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah it's definitely something we've encountered over the years we're doing interviews you look at

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of the more modern spy movies like the Bond films for instance we get a lot more nose when

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: we put requests and feel us out for those than we do say you know a Roger Morphill yeah yeah yeah

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_03]: you can you can get a sense of time has passed and people are no longer fully involved

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Anthony way he was a kind of a senior Bond executive was the first AD on the doctor in the

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Daleks film so he kind of gave me lots of insights and he was he was worked on clash of the

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Tyson as well which was fabulous we did a podcast with him at the Harry Housen Foundation so many

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_03]: of these guys from that era had worked on the the Connery and more films and it was quite a

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_03]: small roller decks of people it would be the same people kind of rolling over whereas now it's vast

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_03]: battalions of crew often who don't even meet each other in different lands well speaking of

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: double o seven all things James Bond you don't make a big point to celebrate too much in the

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: book but it is quite surprising how much the third man is connected to James Bond not only you

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: mentioned John Glenn but multiple actors at least two or three on the other hand I

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: had a involved in bond productions further down the line there's one you point out in the book

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that I hadn't even realised was actually in the film and I just well as clearly as a Bond fan

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_00]: yourself as well were you surprised by it's sort of connected to shoot a Bond and yeah just a little

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_03]: bit about that really yes so there were so many actors like Bernard Lee he was M and there were

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_03]: other M actors in there there was somebody who was doing the voice over for blowfeld on credits

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and then all the production person you know Guy Hamilton who was the first AD first assistant director

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_03]: third man directed Bond John Glenn of course the most prolific Bond directed to dates and

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_03]: then the Lewis Gilbert connection you know Lewis tentatively with Oliver being handed over to

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and so Carol Reed it was marvelous to see so many Bond connections I suppose the one that's

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_03]: most defines this book this is a non-bond book or an entity bond book in some ways because Graham

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_03]: although he was a member of secret service and not revealing anything there are students

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_03]: the way he became a member of it and how he bought of the British establishment was very different

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_03]: to Ian Fleming who was a patriot Ian Fleming was a real patriot he wanted to present a

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_03]: sophisticated and successful British intelligence service that one the day over the

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_03]: cruel foreigners who tried to invade this country with their technology and so on most of the

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Bond villains didn't speak with English accents so we can all agree any villains that spoke with

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_03]: English accents were the with the commanders of the death star who all sounded like they went to

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_03]: eaten didn't they most of them very good English there a good creative in the future if you go

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_03]: to private school you'll end up working for the empire so at least you get your clothes ironed

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_03]: that should be fun so Graham Green and Ian Fleming knew each other very well

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_03]: but they had a kind of a clash of personalities Ian Fleming was phenomenally successful for

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: his brilliant rising of the James Bond novels I think people often think that's

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I know you guys don't but sometimes people think Ian Fleming became successful because they

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_03]: filmed his books didn't they and it's like no no no you know these books were incredibly successful

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_03]: bestselling books and of course amplified by the movies and Graham Green didn't have the same

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_03]: commercial success but he had enormous critical acclaim and both men I'm going to suggest and I do

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_03]: in the book with somewhat envious of each other's status so when Graham Green was going to stay

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_03]: that's Ian Fleming's golden eye retreat is his holiday place and Ian Fleming said to him look

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I will mean to stay there completely free of charge all I'd like you to do is write a forward

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_03]: or an introductory notes to a little compilation of my books that have been reprinted in the small

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: box of Bond editions and it was like a forward if you like or a notes from Graham Green

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_03]: you know sort of saying these are wonderful and so on and he said no I'd rather pay you the rent

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_03]: stay at Golden Eye and it's that old that's a awkward that's a bit embarrassing so it was always

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of professional attention between the two men and both of them knew John La Carre as well

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_03]: he was much younger at the time and all three had worked for British intelligence but Graham

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Green worked there because his sister was there and his sister thought he could do with a bit more

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_03]: money because he traveled a lot and asked him to fancy being a spy you know if you fancy being a British

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_03]: agent and he was like okay if I can get to travel free and make some money as well so that's why he

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_03]: came a spy and it's not a pretitial sequence you would have seen in a Bond film you know you

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_03]: knock on them's office and oh look it's me sister hello do you fancy a bit more pin money you're

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_03]: going then then your title sequence it's not gonna happen you know so intelligence tends to be more

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03]: in terms of John La Carre's vision as well a lot more admin and a lot more sort of men in

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_03]: small dark rooms smoking and drinking tea and muttering to themselves and in terms of Graham Green

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_03]: writing he was a travel log writer as well he wrote as a journalist a very different style to

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Ian Fleming and yet both men admired each other enormously but Ian Fleming would never have stayed

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_03]: in touch with Kim Tilby this country's greatest tracer and one of the things I had

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_03]: niggling at me when I started this book was well the film the third man came out in the late 1940s

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_03]: was written especially as a film it wasn't a book first it was in novella that Graham Green

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_03]: created on instructions from Alexander Corda so the third man established in the late fours he's

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_03]: came out as a movie Kim Tilby was heads of British intelligence and it was his job to

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_03]: to dig out any of the moles any of the double agents people who are being paid by the Russian

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_03]: government to spy basically on on the British establishment and the irony was that Graham Green

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_03]: was employed by Tilby they were great friends and when Tilby was exposed then a couple of decades

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_03]: later as one of the Cambridge five the bizarre thing was guess which one of the Cambridge five he was

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_03]: he was the third man of the Cambridge five it's like yeah what you know that's a new

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_03]: world you know numerological coincidence so I spoke to Graham Green's family about that and

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_03]: about the fact that Green stayed in touch with Kim Tilby when he went to exile in Moscow

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and wrote the forward to Philby's memoir about being basically a big tracer it's like oh okay

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_03]: and Philby had a stamp as well the Russian government had issued a stamp with Tilby's face on

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and we need to put it in the book but then we didn't so you know Ian Fleming I don't think would have

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_03]: would have pinned his faith and his friendship so clearly onto the lapel of Kim Tilby I think most

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_03]: people turned their back on Tilby and for good reason so that is kind of quite bizarre and it's

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03]: still something that British establishment doesn't really talk about and even the 30 year rule

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_03]: where papers get released after 30 years and you can see things there are still things that

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_03]: are sealed and I think we won't find out in our lifetime why wasn't he and the other members

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_03]: of the Cambridge five properly pursued and prosecuted strange and what did Graham Green know and did

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_01]: he turn down a night to which I think he did right and that was something that I really thought about

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot when I was reading your book was Graham Green is such a force of creativity in this era

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and yet I feel like you asked people in 2024 his name is becoming less and less known

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: whereas like you say Ian Fleming or John the Carlite people immediately will know it

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: partly because their work is still being adapted to major motion pictures or TV series

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: do you feel like Graham Green kind of like Carol Reed is someone who is almost

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: in danger of being kind of not forgotten but becoming less known over time

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_03]: yes I think it quite right there you know the reason Carol Reed wasn't considered to be in

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_03]: all the term or a film maker's film maker he was considered to be much more of a working technician

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_03]: was because of the types of films he made it took the intervention of people like Peter

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Bogdanovitch and Martin Scorsese to say hang on a minute something interesting was happening

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_03]: in British cinema let's revisit look at the camera work look at the the the oblique angles

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_03]: the chitils were they actually the Deutsche Tiltsk to give them the correct name they were

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_03]: wrongly a recrisence Dutch tells that would never have been allowed in in most

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: russia's or daily's in American preview theatres if you don't need directed one or two

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_03]: feature films you went in with tilted russia's you'd be fired you'd be fired in the russia's

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_03]: room in the preview theatre so you know Reed and the Green were doing things which

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_03]: America wasn't able to do at that time Martin Scorsese talks extensively about how the film

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_03]: was very influential on him in terms of its pacing in terms of use of music Robert Crascas photography

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_03]: which was kind of groundbreaking at the time French expressionist cinema did have this sort of

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_03]: look but mainstream cinema didn't an audience is didn't connect with it till this film

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_03]: but right he got forgotten green has has become forgotten we don't think of this as

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03]: grain greens the third man whereas we do think of it as in Fleming's the spy who loved me even though

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_03]: he didn't actually write the screenplay for that so there isn't been a closer association with it

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_03]: many of the films that were adapted from greens work were not commercially successful

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_03]: so there hasn't been a sort of a rush to to remake his films no one's thought of remaking the third

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_03]: man you might say well why would they but there've been many sort of bizarre remakes that have

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_03]: come up over the years but you know I'm hoping that the film being recognized now we have a chapter on

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_03]: green called The Realife James Bond where we talk about his exploits and what it was really like

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm hoping that he'll be reassessed you know the film has been reassessed if you were a TV

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_03]: commissioner or an acquisitions head about 15 or 20 years ago you could buy this film very

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_03]: very cheaply to show on a wets rainy afternoon or if you'd had a break in live transmission you might

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_03]: cut to an interruption to regular programs when I was going to show you the third man instead because

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_03]: it was a very very cheap film filler in the afternoon and there's nothing in it that would offend

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_03]: now that's not the case they've gone back to the libraries of the rights holders they've been

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_03]: brushed up into 4K then now quite expensive if you wanted to license the 4K for your channel to show

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: it so it's interesting how over time these are these have matured like fine wines and now

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_03]: the doctor who in the Daleks films which in the 70s were the the standard bear on the BBC

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_03]: if they had a break in sports transmission on a Saturday they threw on these films completely unscheduled

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_03]: they won't do that now because the films have been reassessed are the films from the time

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: they had bigger budgets and bigger stars are being forgotten so the kind of the current

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_03]: year around the status of the third man changes you know it is like a stock market in terms of

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: status and value and it depends on us the public what we're prepared to pay for and what we're

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_03]: prepared to write books about so I'm hoping it won't be forgotten again but it will be

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01]: covered hopefully by many new viewers we interrupt this program to bring you a special report

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Red Alert spy hards we are shaking things up over on the Patreon page that's right we are launching

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: an exclusive new show where we tackle the exploits of the small screens greatest secret agents like

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Jack Bauer George Smiley and Beyond and don't forget every month you also get two agents in the

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_00]: field episodes where we decode the adventures of your favorite spy actors in their biggest non-spy

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_00]: movies but cab tell the people what we have coming up next Scott with slow horses season 4 being

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the talk of the town right now it is the ideal time for us to be tackling the second season of

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: the show and so we are redeeming with Jackson Lamb in the gang for round 2 horse hards let's do this

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_00]: so strap on your condor man wings and saw into the future with us over at patreon.com slash spy hards

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but before big goes absolutely red pulsating laser let's get back to the spy jinx

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_00]: what do you think it is about the third man that has continued it to be a film that is spoken about

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and perhaps have a small bit of an evolution in its later years I think it is more in discussions now

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly wasn't as you say like the rights of definitely gone up since and the lovely 4k transfer

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: why do you think this film is still in the conversation when it comes to spy movies?

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Well I think there are two reasons one because it is a different view it is not a view that

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_03]: has been often repeated had there been lots of sequels to the third man we talk about that in the book

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_03]: there was a television series as well with Michael Renne they tried to reinvent the third man in

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_03]: itself and it wasn't possible it was just a unique combination at the time of those actors at that time

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_03]: but in the last 15 or 10 years at least there's been a rule man lays amongst the public in terms

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_03]: of new content that Hollywood is producing and about 10 years ago they said the death of physical

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_03]: media had happened you weren't going to be buying DVDs and your supermarket as much as you used to

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and yet there's been an emergence of something else and it's these house brick size special additions

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_03]: right it's just one film with the loads of extra bits and bobs there's one coming out for the third

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_03]: man which is going to be like mega expensive and it's going to be like a thick house brick

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that have one cost of the film in there on a 4k disc there's a few different i've written an essay

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_03]: for it that these are postcards and so on people are willing to spend more on an old film

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_03]: than they are perhaps on the latest Marvel or DC character universe film so part of it

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_03]: the film is being rediscovered because it hasn't been repeated in the last sort of 75 years to any

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_03]: great success or a clank by anyone else but also because people are turning their back on new content

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_03]: there's very little new content coming out that's exciting people and as a result and happened in lockdown

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_03]: people were returning to older films and that might be you know

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_03]: um tootsie were dust in Hoffman or it might be the shining of course

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_03]: which was not successful when it first came out and had bad reviews now considered as be a classic

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_03]: so films do have an opportunity to reinvent themselves you know if look at the catalog of Terry

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Gilliam I know I know Terry quite well I was to both and team about doing books of his films

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_03]: many of his films were the adventures of bare munchausen I'd love to do that book and that's a

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_03]: terrible box office the most unsuccessful film made outside of Hollywood I think even to date

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_03]: and yet now it's considered to be a a mini classic the criterion collection did a 4k remaster

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and so on so I think our attitude to success change also the pendants on the balance

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_03]: of what's happening with Hollywood are we happy with the current supply or not and if we're not

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_03]: then we tend to return to the past people want to film but they don't want to necessarily pick up a

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_03]: book so how do you get somebody from looking at an older film and and appreciating it more than

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_03]: they did to looking at the book so it's it's kind of always a tricky balance we haven't come

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_03]: a crop yet but unlike concerned there's any just around the corner will pick that film

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_03]: that no one wants to read a book about it one of the things I thought was really interesting

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01]: was the score for the film by Anton Carras and that hugely celebrated at the time you know

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_01]: massive hit on radio in like the 1950s but something that over time has become a little more polarizing

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and you know just your thoughts on that yes so the school wasn't like that the time by um

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_03]: by David O'Selsonic he felt he needed a proper orchestral score and previous scores that

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_03]: in written for Carol Reed's films were orchestral scores so it was kind of a risk you know

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_03]: lots of the risks in the film between the cast and the casting between the photography

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_03]: or one's that's Carol Reed really took himself but there was some controversy as to who came up

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_03]: with the idea of using Anton Carras and who discovered him because two people claimed to have

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_03]: discovered him and Carol Reed says I was eating in a restaurant at the time rule the crew went

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and this guy was playing to us and I discovered him that way but Trevor Howard claims he discovered

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Anton Carras and they go they both can't be right so we had to kind of take a view on this as to who

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_03]: was most likely to be right and when I spoke to the continuity lady who worked on the pictures

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_03]: still alive it was her view and it was my view as well it was probably Carol Reed but it's a tricky

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_03]: one because some people find the music sort of monotonous and they think that it doesn't suit

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_03]: look if you take the view that David O'Selsonic took which this is travel log star music

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and it offers nothing you know it doesn't bring emotion it doesn't bring attention or humor

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_03]: it doesn't punctuate a scene I think that's missing the point of how the music is used

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_03]: if you look at the music for Halloween in not in seeing 78 the John Carbenter original film

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_03]: quite sparse had to be it was a low budget film and the music was used really more as a sound

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_03]: effect and yet it had this monotonous about it it's real genius of course at the time to do

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_03]: that sort of score because if we think of other classic horror scores hitchcock with the psychostrings

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and so on this was something very different the carbon to was doing but really it has its roots in

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_03]: what Carol Reed did with the spotting sessions here with Antoine Carrus. Carrus didn't know about

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_03]: spotting the film it was Reed who was doing it read brought him over to Thuys House in London

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and worked through the film within we have pictures of that in the book that haven't been seen before

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and it really was a case of of creating something that would work for every scene and I think the

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_03]: success still out and some people think that it doesn't work and that's it's kind of gets in the

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_03]: way of the drama but I actually think when you hear the opening music do do do do do do do do

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_03]: anything hi this is travel of music when you hear it by the end it feels quite sinister to hear

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_03]: the same music played in that sinister way horror directors have done that in the past by using

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_03]: classic 50 style groups I think there's a track on Halloween isn't there that's Mr Sandman

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_03]: which is which is lovely track when you hear a nice illustration but when you see it

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_03]: in an opening sequence I think the opening of Halloween too has that and it's like wow I can't

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_03]: hear that track now without thinking of Dr Lumus looking for Michael Myers so I think if you are

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_03]: plugged into the film the score will affect you in that way and I think you can't

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_03]: unhear that music people have said to me it's like a music worm it goes around in their ears

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_03]: around and around but I think that proves how successful it was the music the casting

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_03]: to story and the moment in time is what locks that success in they try to repeat it not with

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Anton Carrus in other situations and other film it just didn't happen and I think there's lots of

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_03]: examples in cinema history where people have all come together if had this creative

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and lightning in the bottom moments never to be repeated well I mean I think the success of it

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01]: really comes too from the protagonist of the film you know played by Joseph Cotton who is this

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_01]: seemingly fairly unsuccessful pulp author he's known but he's obviously not rich if you're

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_01]: showing up just to get a job with Harry Lyme but someone who kind of approaches the situation

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_01]: with kind of a romanticism and the music kind of plays to that and over time this man is

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_01]: gradually broken down where as you said it feels sinister by the end it's someone who had these kind of

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_01]: dreamy aspirations of I'm going to a foreign local and slowly being pulled into a mystery

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01]: in an adventure and by the end the woman's walking right past him he's just throwing a cigarette

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_03]: on the ground. Yeah absolutely look you know people who read the film and said that

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Polymartins played by Joe Carson represents America he's come you know with youth and vitality

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and with stories of the West but incredibly naive into a war zone not understanding the

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_03]: politics or the language and not wanting to really understand it but just find his friend

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and it's quite a charred like policy he has in the film you know I'm just here for my friend

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Harry as if it's someone who's playing marbles within the streets and yet when you you

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_03]: chase right to the end there she walks right past him when Joe Cotton lights up a cigarette

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_03]: in in reality he thought that the shots had finished and he hadn't heard director Carol Reed

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_03]: shout cut so he gets out some cigarettes and starts to lie one up and yet the tape was still rolling

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_03]: so that was unintentionally on his behalf and it was kept in the in the final cast but you know

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the you know the character's kind of work well if it was recast and in future years you

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_03]: probably can recast this and doing AI version with different people in different roles and see what it

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_03]: looks like oh I think it would exactly and we'll look if there's money in it and if you

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_03]: represent the estates of different well-known people like Robert Mitch and and the brilliant

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_03]: carry grants it would be yeah you'd want to see that wouldn't you carry grant is Harry Lime I'd

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_03]: want to see where that looked and I'd probably pay a few few dollars to take a look at that so who knows

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of the third man I think we could probably go on for another few hours of celebrating the film

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but one thing I just want to sort of touch on to wrap up about this film particularly because I think

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_00]: your book is the perfect encapsulation of the story of the film I recommend people going pick it up

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_00]: if they want him more about it visuals are so important in this film we talked about the the Dutch

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_00]: tilt the the Deutsch tilt as it were and there's a whole great chapter about sort of filming

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the third man in the book and also you you feel the book full of wonderful photography as you say

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you pulled some from the archives and like there's definitely it's even some photos like

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_00]: super grainy that you just I knew you wanted to have in because they were important shots to have

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what I felt like but for you looking back on the film itself now you've gone through

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the process of making this wonderful book what do you think is the most impactful image

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_03]: from the third man I suppose it would be the first shots of Harry Lime caught in the light

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_03]: in the in the V in these nights and he gives it a little smile and it's like awesome

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_03]: well you've caught me guys but the moment you have me but not for much longer and I think you know

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_03]: that there's you can completely reread the film after reading my book and see the cat and mouse

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_03]: game that Lime played as a character reflected directly with awesome well as a person

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_03]: there's no suggestion here that's awesome well as was the bad person he was a brilliant

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_03]: brilliant man but in terms of the cat and mouse game he played with everyone Harry Lime did exactly

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_03]: the same he played a cat and mouse game with everyone including his girlfriend including his best friend

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and never have to never has a character and an act to emerge more beautifully and more

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_03]: perfectly than that and I think his his him being lit dramatically from a light being switched on

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I think is the classic moment for me because it says it all and he's looking at the audience smiling

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_03]: as if to say you know they've caught me in the lights here but not for much longer

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and I have a question for you have you gone to Vienna and gone on the Prater Ferris wheel

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I have I've done all of that and we had great help from the third man museum in Vienna as well

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_03]: who gave me lots of the unpublished images lots of the different covers for the music sheet music

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and so on and it's the world only as I believe so the world's only single film museum

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_03]: and if I may be so bold as to ask you Jen I know another one oh do you oh my goodness

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_01]: what is it there is a quiet man museum to the John Wayne film in Ireland I should buy it and close

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_03]: it down immediately so we don't have to read things like that which which museum would you

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_03]: guys want if you can have a single film museum and you had to be the curator as well so you'd

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: really love the film which which films would you choose between you I mean I think I think my answer

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: is is somehow condol man kind of I wish I was mildly joking but I have I've spent so much

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: time of assessing over that film over the years and like collecting random bits of memorabilia

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think like if there was someone that was going to tell the story of condol man I'd like it

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_03]: to be me okay you got the soundtrack does a brilliant double disc soundtrack released by enthrine

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_03]: other I've got it behind me on the on the racks here somewhere it's in my CD shelf downstairs

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_03]: brilliant good stuff collect a zi-sing worth lots of money is probably not gonna get reprinted

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: it costs me a lot

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like for me I mean bond is the easy answer so I'm not gonna say that

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the movies that draw me in is kind of a mix of like the artistry is fascinating to dive into

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: but there's also like a fun factor like I never get tired of going back to those worlds and wanting

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to do that which if I'm opening a museum I gotta be committed to spending a lot of time in that world

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: so I think of like I guess two things I think of the evil dead series you know with Sam

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Ramey and I think of the Tim Burton Batman films I could like spend forever finding you know props

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and posters and art from Batman returns for example yeah that's really good one actually I'm

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what mine would be I'm ashamed to say if it was how the duck museum would I get many people coming but

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: it's that's not my choice but it could be it would be up there with other choices

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you might be smart though because you know we're just like on the verge of how the duck

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: having a major comeback in the MCU he's already popped up in guardians films that you could be like

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: ahead of the curve and about to be opening like the biggest film museum in the world

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: well let's say let's let's throw down the gong that we'll each open home museums and see how many

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_03]: people we have over the threshold in the years time and we can come back for a uh

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: rather interesting podcast or a really depressing one it feels like a premise for a sitcom

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: yes sure well okay before we let you go because I want to dig a little bit further into

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: into you and your books just before we let you go now we've mentioned something that

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you're written about do you have a favorite book of the ones you put together if we're not

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_00]: if it maybe going outside the third man people want to pick up another book as well maybe one

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_03]: you point people towards it tricky because they all have a sort of a different place in my heart

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: the uh Doctor who in the Daleks when I kind of really thought the case for that so that really wouldn't

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_03]: be there if we hadn't done that my very first book which I thought was gonna be my only ever published

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: book Harry House and the Lost Movies covers all of the unmade films that Ray Harry House and

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_03]: didn't make and sequences that were deleted from his film but all you couldn't do for a financial

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and technical reason and it was 80 there's a total of 80, 80, 80, 80 that was kind of one that

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_03]: kicked it all off and I think for people who want a book that they can just kind of flick through

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and have a quick look at something maybe that's a good entry level one um all the others are a

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: deep dive they are like a public inquiry um if anyone's ever been to a public inquiry and looked

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_03]: at the printed documents and it's like thick as a couple of argos catalogs you need to be a

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_03]: big fan of the film to um to want to read it but people who have not been fans have said actually I

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_03]: preferred your book over the film itself and I think the weaker man's a case in points

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: the behind-the-scenes shenanigans on that film which do involve a certain mr. Sean Connery as well

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_03]: do kind of like people's touch paper and if you're into kind of a gossipy read the weaker man

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: might want to pick up as well. I do love a gossip you've got me packed there so uh that's what

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be picking up next. I um I need to know now because obviously we're talking about the third man

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but as any you're author you've got your iron ball you what you're doing next is can you tease

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: this what the next project to me or may not be? My next book's already risen and it comes out in February

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and I signed an NDA on it because it's about a new film and uh it gets announced um I was told

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: it gets announced this month but I'm not allowed to announce it until it's um and it's been announced

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_03]: by the folks and it's it's a big film that comes out at the end of this year and the book comes out

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: in February so if um depending on when your podcast goes out if um if they let me say it

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll hop back on in this T-shirt record something and send it across to you. I can tell you

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_03]: the new book is um so that's that there's another making of book uh coming my way um

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_03]: in terms of the official story the film which I'm gonna push on about to embark on but again

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I've signed an NDA on that but that's a really old film as well as not as old as the third man

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_03]: but um in the time it took me to finish the third man I did this contemporary book um which is another

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_03]: big one but have the reverse problem of uh the third man there was thousands of images absolutely

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_03]: thousands it's like my god how am I even gonna look at the pictures in time to write this book

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: um but that's coming out in fear. Well you've uh you're being a true spy with us and

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: only teasing us with the information and uh you're making us wonder about what might be coming next

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: so we'll keep an eye out for that and depending on when this has dropped uh we might be able to

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: last question John I'm going to ask you this has been asked everyone including John Glenn we mentioned earlier

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: we talk about spy movies every week. I need to know John Wolf what it is your favorite spy

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: movie of all time. I think it's probably no it is North by Northwest it has to be um when I listen to

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_03]: you guys talking about the knocklist and you've asked people the question I'm always thinking

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_03]: in anger and if it's not North by Northwest what is it? And it no for me it's quite simply North by

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Northwest. I am I even went to the Plaza Hotel into the Ocar because that's where he gets

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_03]: has to be North by Northwest I saw that at film school I was only 18 at the time absolutely loved it

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_03]: and uh I've ordered the 4k which comes out at the end of this year and for me it's definitely

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_03]: North by Northwest I have a favorite Bond films and I have my eye on uh on on bond and for some

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: books as well so um I know some of the folks down at Eon and uh and and E in Fleming publishing as

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: well my my previous commissioner from Titanbook Simon Ward he moved to E in Fleming publishing

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_03]: and uh so between us we've got our eye I've got my eye fixed on three in particular

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_03]: all from the same director bizarrely it's not because they're from that director but they just

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_03]: have to be in my three favorite Bond which are not everyone's three favorites but for me

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: favorite spy film definitely North by Northwest I mean that's a great pick and one that you

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: really can't argue against if you said the third man that would also be a case where you really

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: can't argue against it I should have chosen the third man what am I thinking the publisher is going

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_03]: to think about such a Judas and studio canaligate me that we support all these years could you not have

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_03]: just said the third man so yeah the third man it's pretty good the power of editing it's been the

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_03]: third man the whole time I was just doing a I do an akin film be there trying to pretend to be a

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_03]: crazy but of course no I'm a company man the third man throwing us off the scent yeah exactly

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to say if depending on this podcast goes out and then you guys have different

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_03]: schedules coming up I've got a London book signing for the third man on September the 28 which is

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: a Saturday 2pm that forbidden planet mega store on Charles Brievenue so people come along to that

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll sign this book and any of my others if you want to bring them and limited edition bookmarks

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_03]: are coming to so you'll be able to pick up one of those for free oh awesome and do you need to

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_03]: book in for that or is it just turn up no it's just turn up it's only a one hour window so you basically

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_03]: get in a queue and I think they they normally allow little time after that because sometimes the

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_03]: queue gets a bit long and but particularly people bring the other books and it's a great Christmas

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: present a sign book for me it's near Christmas and I won't wrap it for you but I will write in it

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever you want me to I'll write happy Christmas well I am I will say people go pick up a copy there

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: but John work and people find your books online where's the best place to send people to go

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll put links in the show notes below for the signing and to pick up all the copies of the

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_03]: books where do you recommend it's in all book shops Amazon is good so you can get on Tyson books as

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: well and I'll be doing three signed ones or post signed ones at forbiddenplanet.com so any of those places

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_03]: you want to go and I'm saying to people who can't come to my signing sessions if you send me a screen

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_03]: shot of your Amazon or good reads review I'll send you a signed book plates and a bookmark hopefully

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: if it's a nice review though there you go there you go there you go joy it's been absolutely pleasure

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: decoding the third man with you everyone go pick up a copy I recommend it and we both do and I think

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll all enjoy revisiting the third man with John ourselves and the book thanks guys it's been pleasure

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: well there you go Cam John Walsh was clearly our third man that's right I didn't even think about

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that yeah I guess he has a permanent spot then at the microphone with us yes well maybe he

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: has been here the whole time like I think goodbye we just didn't notice okay okay but I feel like

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: if he's gonna be here we need that Zither music opening and closing the show maybe maybe you could

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: insert a little bit at the end just for the listeners maybe I can maybe I can and we teased before

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: you can win a copy of the book we just spent an hour talking about it with John I'm sure you're

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: all salivating at the chance to get your hands on it and we've got a copy to give away there's

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: going to be more details over on our Twitter page on the main post but the just will be as

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: on as you'd like and share the main post of the week that'll be our pinned post with this episode

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll be in with a chance to win the book more details on Twitter there'll also be a link in the

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: show notes below to our Twitter page you can head over there and find out more but

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Cam let's just talk about it for a second we've never spoken about the third man a seminal

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: film in the spy uffra what a word and I'm glad we finally had a chance to do it for its 75th birthday

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: this was so much fun and John's book this isn't even just like a plug because he was on the show

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: fantastic guest it's because genuinely I read this book and it offered so many stories that I had never

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: heard before and they were delightful so I recommend people genuinely get a copy of this book

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: because Guy Hamilton celebrated James Bond director played an unlikely role throughout the third

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: man yes he was the assistant director but he did so much more and I didn't know all the little details

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and they are all laid out in the book and they are so much fun and some of them are really hilarious

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's just a tip of the iceberg John's book is packed with stories and you know we did a

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: really good job I think throughout the discussion teasing some of these elements a lot of the

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: James Bond connections and things like that shows way more context and stories that go along

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: with those details in the book yeah I mean full disclosure Cam and I were both sent preview copies

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: of the book but we're not being funded by Titan books or anything like that we both just fully

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: endorsed this book this is the book of the film if you love the third man or your curious about

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the third man or spy movie history this book deserves to be on your shelf and it will be joining

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the ranks of my spy reference books up on my shelf pride and joy for sure now I mean the third

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: man itself it seems to have a fascinating history about the fact that it shouldn't have even

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: made when you look at all the things it could have gone wrong yeah from awesome well is not

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: one to be part of it so the producers getting involved like this feels like one of those magic

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: moments in cinema that probably doesn't happen as quite as much anymore that everything just

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: fell into place at the right time yeah that was one of my favorite details that John was bringing

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: up not just in the interview but also in the book was that we tend to think of classic films as

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: these works of love where it was like a passion project it was you know a team of artists

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: who had a vision and they managed succeed even if there was like huge obstacles along the way

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: not so much the case with the third man a lot of people involved with the third man were like

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it's either you know a job or at least a couple key ones were like I don't really want to be involved

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: in this but I guess I got to do it anyway and so it's so interesting when you have a movie that has

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: massive legacy is celebrated 75 years later to kind of know that you know people making this movie

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't have the context they didn't understand they never the foresight to recognize what a special

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: project it was at least several of the people working on it and how you know John's book also

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: lays out how later down the road a lot them kind of acknowledge like oh wow I didn't really realize

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: what we were working on and it also goes to sort of lead to the legend you know awesome well

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: this is celebrated for this film and has taken credit for a lot of it post the films release this

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: book really lays out how much he actually had influence over the film compared to what he didn't

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: didn't do and it's interesting that he went from not wanting to be in the film to

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: tell him all the good bits were him and happy to be tracked down quite a bit because he would disappear

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah there's like several funny stories and also just kind of the the muddled history of the film

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know there's the famous zither score that I referenced earlier on and by Anton Carrus but

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: there's all these different stories about how that score wound up in the movie and you know

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: John provides several different stories so it's kind of like a you can pick which one means the most

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you ultimately but I like the fact that he kind of realized there's no specific story for me to

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: give it anymore I should just include all of the stories and you can kind of connect the dots if you

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: will so I could choose your own adventure exactly yeah yeah and also this book gave me a lot of

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: appreciation for Carol Reed and we've talked about Carol Reed on the show but he is someone who is

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: something of a journeyman and yet when you look at the third man it's so specific it's visuals

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it's style it feels like the work of an otter who had a genuine drive to make a story that would

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: feel like totally unique and yet like Carol Reed bounced all over the place you know makes

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Oliver you know like just about 20 years later and so I really appreciated the book for giving me

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: much more insight into Carol Reed as an artist and how while he may have been someone who changed

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: up his style all the time very much was the driving force behind a lot of the artistry of the third

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: man and for me also a little bit of insight into Graham Green yes which the book really spells out

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: like his connections to Kim Filby I was not aware of any of that hmm yeah and we've talked about

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: both Billby and Graham Green numerous times on the show yeah just didn't know those two sort of spy

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: domains had intersected lovely well interesting a fascinating bit of history there but you know

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and also you know you talk about the rich visuals of the film I think one thing the book does

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: really well is keep that consistent it's a very visually pleasing book not only is it full of great

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: data and information about the third man it's also really great to look at like it's got a lot of

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: you know well known photos in the film but a lot of ones that have been like dug up from archives

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that you've never seen before and it's a real just it's a real page turner and it just also

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: would look good on your coffee table I feel like I'm doing a hard sell on the book for people

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that really isn't the case I'm not being there's no guns in my head here it just is a very good

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: looking book and the thing is we haven't talked about the third man yet now and so this was a

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: really fun kind of introduction for people kind of a hint as to what will come later down the

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: third man episode but I had a ton of fun revisiting this movie and the fact that's you know

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the 75th anniversary there's a lot of meaning there but I was really surprised rewatching

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: the movie how fast past it is how quick people speak like it is a movie that has a quick rhythm

[01:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it does not feel like a kind of slow contemplative spy film that might turn some people off it's

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: very quick and it's also very clean a lot of film noir movies they could be incredibly

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: convoluted where it's more about ultimately the mood and the style than following the plot point

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: by point because it gets very confusing I think of like the big sleep with Humphrey Bogart

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: like that movie is just baffling to try to figure out but this movie it's you know complex

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's very clean storytelling and I think of really inviting movie to a lot of people as well

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't say it's like an entry level spy film I think that really forces those of the

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: bones and things like that sure but perhaps the next issue on it's not a movie that I think is

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be daunting for people who are kind of tipping their toes into 1940s classics by films

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and if we're talking about things that surprised us about the third man I think it really surprised

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: me as this is my first 4A into the third man was just how little Orson Wells has to do with it despite

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the fact that he's present looms large over the film's legacy the film's marketing it I mean

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: he's on the screen for I think someone countered us like 18 minutes I feel like it's probably less

[01:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: probably might be less it's all I'm dv trivia forgetting the exact number is probably in the book too

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_00]: but yeah he really isn't in the film all that much yeah like the two iconic visuals of the

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: third man are Orson Wells and the Ferris wheel which wasn't Wells's own yeah exactly like

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: it's everything's kind of tied to the Harry lime character in that location at the Prater amusement park

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Vienna which I visited and got to go on that on that Ferris wheel which was much more expensive

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: than I'm sure they would have paid back in those days because you also open the door and stop like

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: counting people you would murder yeah that's not something you're allowed to do you're not allowed

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to open the door of the Ferris wheel while it is going around in circles they've also tried

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I tried they've also built like a whole kind of visitor center in the entrance it's not like an

[01:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: enclosed kind of area where they've got like models of the you know park over the time and what

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: have you and then you pay a considerable chunk of money and get on board the car so they made it

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a little more indoor it was funny though I was charmed watching the movie because Prater park now is

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: quite a bit bigger and a lot more immersive and just let's just say you could spend easily a

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: full day they're doing rides or as I look at the Prater in the third man and I'm like huh it looks

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: rather dinky yeah it's like the little horse riding and that so you really see in the film yeah

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: it's very modest well I think that also talks to I think one of the things to film just really

[01:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: well is paint that post wall picture of Vienna mm-hmm I get you and also the books

[01:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: bells and blah blah to there's a whole section about Vienna in its history and sort of what

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: led up to the point of the film and why it was picked for the film and why it was so influential on

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the story because this is not a uh a gray and green book that was adapted as a gray and green

[01:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: story mm-hmm which is I think the first time he did that um sure why not don't quote me on that

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: let's go yeah it's our show we could be wrong don't write it it's don't email us we're often wrong anyway

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: but yeah I'm learning a lot about this and I think the reason why people might be curious is to

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: why we didn't review the film because we knew this was coming and I knew this book was on the

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: horizon and I think this book will help us along in our journey to eventually review the third man

[01:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: at some point down the road because this is the sort of definitive article on how it was put together

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: yep and so when can you do your sort of decoding speed that they get into briefing as I like to call

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a little hit with you well exactly and one of the things about the third man too is

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: it's still feel so relevant you see movies constantly pull from an even today constantly yep

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I had one moment that I just had never connected the dots which is that Harry lime who's you know

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the iconic villain of the film um they gave his wardrobe to Jack Napier in Tim Burton's Batman

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: so when you see Jack Nicholson at the uh axis chemical plant walking around he's wearing the

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: exact same outfit and that axis chemical plant sequence is staged quite similarly to the sewer

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: sequence in the third man I never made that connection yeah wow like they chose the exact same outfit

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: he's wearing like the black jacket and the same hat yeah I mean ever of all the people I could

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: understand Tim Burton being influenced by this film I mean film noir is all over that 1989 Batman

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: but uh I had never realized the third man connection well you're learning all sorts of things here

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: on spyharts and we hope you had a good time celebrating the third man 75th birthday with us

[01:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: go out and grab a copy of the book when a copy on our twitter page find out more about that on twitter

[01:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and of course pick up a copy of the new studio canal 4k release if you can as well and celebrate

[01:21:43] [SPEAKER_00]: the third man in glorious 4k yes yes do it do it folks uh but cam I love to ask this question because

[01:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it means we're coming back next week and we haven't been cancelled what are we talking about next week

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Scott grab a mint julep and let's celebrate because gold finger is turning 60 now we did our

[01:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: episode with Calvin Dyson on gold finger always back quite always back now but you know what we

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: have I spy master interview for you that we think you're all gonna really enjoy we are going to talk

[01:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: to Norman one stole who was the sound designer of most of the Connery Bond films including gold

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: finger want to hear about how they made the sound of odd jobs hat he's gonna tell you do you want

[01:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: to hear about for example in dr. no when dr. no is crushing a cup in his hand he's gonna tell you

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and so much more there's a ton of stories he also worked on the hip crisp file and also

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: never seen ever again and there's some stories involved with that one as well so tune in for this

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: this is going to be an absolute blast with someone who's I think an under-recognized icon of the

[01:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Bond era someone who is so instrumental to what Bond is and so we're gonna give him his flowers absolutely

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Norman one stole he's the man the man with the mightest touch uh we can't wait to share this

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: spy master interview with you we had it sort of locked down for a little while now I've been

[01:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: sitting on it waiting for the special gold finger date to release it to you all so your mission folks

[01:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: should you choose to accept it as to join us next week as we celebrate gold finger 60 as birthday

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a ton of birthdays here at the moment and sit down with an Oscar winner Mr Norman one stole if

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: you like what you heard on this episode please consider joining us over on our patreon page patreon.com

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: slash spy hearts links in the show notes below you can click that head right on over multiple tiers

[01:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: to join out just show your love and support for spy hearts if you can spare the dime we would always

[01:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: appreciate it make sure to follow us over on social media as spy hearts as SPYHARDS make sure to check

[01:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: out our Twitter to find out how you can win a copy of John Walsh's new book the third man the official

[01:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: story of the film drew out on the 24th of September worldwide but until next week folks you'll find

[01:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: cam and I pondering the question the zither or the slide whistle which was better