Black Bag DECLASSIFIED - Guest: Hannah Hughes

[00:00:34] Hello and welcome to SpyHards Podcast. I'm Agent Scott and we're here with a declassified review. Hot off the presses, it's no spoilers of the new Steven Soderbergh film, Black Bag. Hell of a cast, a lot to talk about. But there's an emptiness in the room. An energy has left. There's someone missing. And that's Cam, because frankly, he hasn't seen the film yet.

[00:01:01] And that's okay. It's just got to cinema. It's just got to theatres worldwide. And we're here to answer the question, should you be going out and spending your hard earned cash to go and see the film? We will tackle that. But I'm using the we here. We do have a guest. I have a guest joining me on the show. Sitting across from me on this Zoom phone call is a lady that once called this Scott's Midlife Crisis.

[00:01:27] And, you know, I was 32 when I started this. So that has some quite fatal implications on my lifespan. And this film is all about married couples. So for the first time on the show, it's Mrs. Agent Hardy, Hannah Hughes herself. Hello, Hannah. How are you? I'm well, thank you. Hi. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You've been a part of the SpyHards family for as long as it's been running because you do all of our wonderful artwork.

[00:01:54] I do. Yeah. Very enthusiastically there as well. Sorry. It all feels very weird. It does. But we me and you went to the cinema yesterday at time of recording to go and see Black Book. And we're recording this in different rooms of our house together. This is a very odd scenario. The energy is a bit off, like I could be talking to my wife downstairs. But hey, we're both here in different rooms sitting in the dark talking about a film. But it's almost perfect for a spy story, right? Yeah, perfect.

[00:02:25] But before we maybe get to Black Book just a little second, let's just take a beat to sort of check your spy credentials as you are a new person on the show. Spy movies. I know you well enough. I've been with you for 11 years now. I wouldn't say spy movies are your bag. But is there any sort of spy movies you can say you do enjoy or what you look for in a spy movie, perhaps?

[00:02:47] I don't hate spy movies. I really enjoy spy movies if the characters are well written and they don't rely on some of the lazier tropes that I know you guys cover so beautifully. Yeah, I really enjoy. I really enjoy mystery. I really enjoy character drama. I really enjoy, you know, relationships between characters.

[00:03:16] So I felt like when you said, let's go and see Black Bag. I was like, I don't know enough about it. I've only seen a bit of the trailer last time we went to see a movie. But this seems more in my wheelhouse than most. And to be fair, I didn't know half of this film's story that it would be such a character drama and be sort of driven by the relationship of the two protagonists, Cate Blanchett and Michael Fassbender are married in this film. I had no idea about that before going to see the films.

[00:03:44] I thought it was sort of a unique thing for you and I to talk about because like it's kind of a I mean, neither of us are spies as far as I'm aware, Hannah. As far as you know. Oh, very mysterious. That's why you're in a different room. But. For those who haven't checked out the trailer, who are unaware of what Black Bag is, here is the synopsis. And much like the runtime of this film, it's brief. Black Bag.

[00:04:12] It takes a spy to hunt a spy. When his beloved wife is suspected of betraying the nation, an intelligence agent faces the ultimate test. Loyalty to his marriage or his country. Pretty good elevator pitch, I'd say. I mean, the only two options, clearly. Well, as in what you could say about it? No, as in like, it's either your marriage or your country. It's only ever one or the other, isn't it? Oh, I mean, there is no third person there, I suppose.

[00:04:41] Or maybe you could just sell everyone out. I just mean in general. Oh, in general. So that's all we have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It's marriage or your country. I mean, by the end of this episode, you'll probably be choosing your country, I assume. Maybe half the listeners will too. But for those who are unsure about continuing this episode, we're not going to talk about spoilers for a bit. We're going to talk about the film non-spoilery and then we'll get to spoilers at the end. So don't worry. We won't ruin any of the twists and turns. And there are a few in this film.

[00:05:11] It's a spy movie. So that's to be expected. Yeah, I'll try. I'll try and keep a lid on it. But this is your first podcast ever as well, isn't it? I think it is. Yeah. Do you think? I can't. Yeah. Is that? I hear so many being recorded upstairs, but I'm like, oh yeah, that old episode. Yeah. And I feel like I listened to a few and I feel like I'm sort of partially involved, but I think this must be the first appearance. It was definitely the first appearance on Spy Hearts.

[00:05:38] I think what's actually funnier is like, maybe reading into what you said, it could be my first. I wonder if this is like a little bit of the black bag story where I find the cinema ticket in the waste paper bin and you actually have been on many podcasts and you're not telling me. I have my own about like marital bliss. Oh, and so I'm not involved. That makes perfect sense.

[00:06:01] And also like, I think just as a mild moment of funniness before we get into black bag is you think I have like a radio voice I use for the show. So you are cringing your entire way through this. Like, I mean, do you want me to talk as normal Scott for the rest of the episode? No, this is this is podcast Scott. I'm quite I'm quite entertained. It's also telephone Scott. If you ever have the pleasure of talking to me on the telephone, I do have this sing songy attitude about that, too. Oh, I like to think so. But anyway, black bag. Let's do it.

[00:06:31] It's a lot of people will come in every week to hear from me and can. But how do you lead us off like top line thoughts? What did you think of black bag? As I said, I went in having seen the trailer sort of half heartedly. I think you had the trailer on the TV and I was in the room, so I wasn't even really like focused on the trailer when it came out.

[00:06:57] So I went in completely blind, didn't really even know who was in it, anything like that. I was really. I was pleasantly surprised. God, God, I love a 19 minute movie. Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, give me anything that gets me out back to my couch as soon as possible. Yeah, I think I kind of feel like and obviously there are exceptions to the rule. But for the most part, if you can't tell it, if you can't tell it in under two hours, you. I don't know.

[00:07:25] I don't know whether, you know, you get it edited guys. Cut it down. This is coming from a photographer who's all about like quick snapshots. It's all about like brief exchanges. All I do is edit it to the thing that gets the message across clearest. And if you're not doing it in under two hours, what are you? What are you playing at? I know that. I know that blows most cinema out the water. I know people will be yelling the Godfather at me through the screen. I don't care.

[00:07:52] James Cameron is having a hissy film on Avatar 3 right now. It's like four hours. He's underwater. He can't hear me. Hey, the Brutalist was four hours, but it gave us an intermission so we can be thankful for that. Sorry. Did you mean the Brutalist film or the acceptance speech? Ooh. Timely Oscar joke from Hannah. She's been prepping. Thank you. Thank you. So you enjoyed it though. You had a good time. I had a fantastic time. Yeah.

[00:08:19] No, I felt like I'm a big theater goer. I really enjoy theater and drama on the stage. And I felt like this had a lot of parallels to that in terms of lots of dialogue. One scenes, one sets, you know, all getting from, you know, telling a story or telling part of that story in quite a neat package in one set. I felt like that was very...

[00:08:49] Economical. It was, and it was also theatrical in the sense that people were hanging on to every word until the end of that scene. And I think it was a really good demonstration of how to build tension without there being constant running. Or explosions or like yelling. Or explosions or like yelling. Or explosions, car faces. I think from the trailer, I think you're sort of led to believe that there's going to be more of that.

[00:09:18] And I would imagine that's down to the, you know, the big cheeses up above being like, we've got to get them in. Their attention spans are waning. We have to show them something blowing up. But actually, it was a masterclass in building tension and people only being able to breathe, you know, as the scene cuts to another idea or another conversation. And for that reason, I think it was, I think it was a non-patronizing movie for once.

[00:09:48] And I think that's why I wanted you to start the conversation off. Because what you find more interesting about films, not just spy movies, is character drama. Like, character-driven stories. And I think that really is the essence of what Black Bag is. I keep wanting to say Black Book, which is a completely different spy movie. Black Bag. That's what drew you. It's what drew me into. I think what Soderbergh has created is like the anti-spy movie. There is none of what you come to expect.

[00:10:17] There are no explosions. Yes, there is a MacGuffin that's weaved in. We'll talk about that at the end. But that's just the background ticking clock to get the characters doing something for 90 minutes. But really, it's about six people who start off the film sharing a dinner table. And it's about their story for 90 minutes, about what they're doing behind the scenes. And ultimately dealing with the whole idea of this business of being spies is a trust game. It's about lying and betrayal and deceit.

[00:10:44] And can you form relationships with people that ultimately you can't trust? Hmm. And that's such an interesting conversation to have. Yeah. I'm surprised. I mean, maybe there has been the odd spy movie we haven't seen yet that have tackled this before. But this feels quite a unique entity. I think in many ways, it's got like parallels to things like Mr. and Mrs. Smith, which isn't my favourite movie, but it is.

[00:11:12] It does play along the thing of the spies, the spies trusting and not trusting each other and having a relationship and how that works logistically. I think they did it in a more comedic way. But and and this one dealt more with levels of levels of loyalty and where that loyalty lies and and that kind of thing than previous movies have dealt with it.

[00:11:41] Well, it's funny you bring up Mr. and Mrs. Smith, a very sexy film with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. And you'd think that's the way the sex appeal is. But there are some sexy scenes in this film with Fassbender and Blanchett. Yeah, I hope this isn't a spoiler, but that's the fishing reel was the was like oddly erotic. Well, that's a hot off the presses take from Hannah. I hadn't heard on my own. If you watch it, if you haven't watched it and you're going to watch it, you watch that fishing reel spool and you're like, hello. Hello.

[00:12:10] He's really pulling on that thing. Hello. Put it down, Fassbender. No. This is the camera framing. Yeah. Don't read too much into that readers. Readers? People reading Spy Hearts? I hope not. I mean, the transcript's probably out there. Oh, yeah. I think ultimately this film will be because like, unfortunately, it's having a rough time in the cinema. We're talking about this opening weekend. It's making no money at all.

[00:12:37] And the discussions are that this is going to go to streaming very quickly, much like the new Mickey 17 film. Hmm. That came out and made no money whatsoever. And I think 17 days after release or 24 days after release, it's being sent straight to streaming. Which, you know, and someone's article I was reading yesterday said this film, Black Bag, is basically an advertisement for the film to go on streaming.

[00:13:04] So you get enough people into the theaters to have seen it to make some buzz, take it out of theaters and then shove it on a streaming service so everyone else can go and watch it. That feels like a shame. I feel like, yes, I think that is a shame. The visuals are really lovely. Like the lighting, around the dinner table, the lighting is so creative and like all the sets are beautiful.

[00:13:31] All of all of the costumes are beautiful. Like it is a shame that people aren't seeing on the big screen. I don't know what more they could have done with the cast. Like there's pretty, there's some pretty big names in there and they use them wisely. I don't think they could have got. I liked the mix of people that they had in there. Short of like gratuitous or more gratuitous than Pierce Brosnan, perhaps. Sorry. Oh, no, no, no. Let's, let's jump on that for a second. Don't leave that hanging.

[00:14:02] So Pierce Brosnan appears in the film. It's, it's not a spoiler. It's in the trailer. It's in the poster. He's kind of like the boss figure in the film. He's in some stuff you like, right? I think he's appeared in the odd spy movie. Taylor of Panama. That was the one he was in. That was it. Yeah. And some people are screaming at us now, but it was a joke folks. Don't worry. We know. I'm not that much of a cinema, cinema goof. He was a lawnmower man.

[00:14:27] No, no, but like, you know, I, I, I found the whole like Pierce Brosnan thing is a nice little inclusion, but he's not really in the core cast. No. He's in like two scenes. I thought he was also one of the best, best ones in it. Like his, his facial expressions said everything without him really saying an awful lot. He probably had 25 lines really, but he was in a few scenes where he completely dominated this, the scene. I thought he was excellent.

[00:14:55] And it could have been, he could have just been like played slick and rich, but he didn't. He played, he played it so precisely. I thought he was, I thought that was a real touch. But then that's, let's talk about that cast, you know, Pierce Brosnan leads us off here, but yeah, the cast is headed up by Michael Fassbender. Who's got a few spy movies under his belt. So does Cate Blanchett. I think one of our favorite early films was Hannah. Uh, ironically with the guests I have on the show now, uh, with Cate Blanchett as well.

[00:15:23] Like they're both no, um, you know, they're novices when it comes to spy movies. And I think like, they've got a powerhouse duo that have great chemistry together, which shows on screen and you have to have that for a married couple. Like I, they were great. They were great. Yeah. I mean, you're obviously led into the movie. I won't go into spoilers, but you're led into the movie. There is a slight tension there and you're, that's explained pretty quickly. So it's not as if they're like super lovey dovey throughout.

[00:15:52] It's not all PDAs and. No, no, no. Yeah. It's like us with barely talking to each other, really. Yeah. I think they discuss what they're having for dinner. That's about it. Yeah. Uh, what is that by the way? No, I'm kidding. No, I think, I think they, they're great. And, and you know, Fassbender seems to have fallen into this. I don't know. Run of playing really calculated. People like he was in the killer last year as well, where he's playing like a calculated

[00:16:22] assassin and it all goes awry. He again, he's playing that sort of calculate thing here. And there is a little bit of that essence of, you know, Sherlock, the TV, BBC TV show with, uh, Benedict Cumberbatch, where mind palace is everything and seems to be 20 steps ahead of everyone, which does get on my nerves a little bit, but I think it works for this film. I don't think he does the reveal though. And again, no spoilers, but I, if any of the twists and turns, he's there knowingly

[00:16:51] in the background, but he's, it's not as if he likes with a smug Poirot-esque flourish. He comes out with the answer and explains it as if you're like such a dumb dumb for not following along. No, there's none of that sort of weird Sherlock-esque show boating that you'd maybe come to expect from a film that leads you down a few paths here and there, gives you a few little twists and turns. It could have been, ta-da, right at the very end.

[00:17:20] And like, aren't I, you know, aren't I brilliant for figuring it out? I don't think it was, I don't think it full, fully went head first into that trope. No, it just, that's a sort of a modern thing that happens in films. It just gets on my nerves. But I think the two of them may had great, I think what you're looking for is a, as a duo that can lead this film with great chemistry and they have it and there's some fun moments and there's some caring moments and there's moments that like make you question their allegiances, which is a part of what you want from a spy movie is to sort of be pushed to the who's who, who done it sort of thing.

[00:17:50] That's all part of it too. They do that well. But then looking at the rest of the cast, I did see your face light up a little bit when Tom Burke turned up on the screen, who I think you know from that TV show Strike that you seem to be a fan of. Lovely Tom Burke. He's just a, he's a brilliant British character actor. I probably, I'm probably falling into the category of more period dramas than certainly Scott does. Although quite frankly, most of the spy films you watch are more period drama than not

[00:18:20] now. So yeah, I mean, he's, he's been in a few of those. He's been in lots of, lots of British dramas and he's, he's excellent every time. But then the cast is, is cast, the cast is also rounded out by, you know, one time, maybe maybe Bond. People were talking about Rishi, Reggie Sean page or Rishay Sean page. I think it might be. Uh, you've got, uh, Marissa Abella. You've got Naomi Harris as kind of your core for after the married couple.

[00:18:50] Hmm. I think they all play their parts. Well, I think the one that surprised me the most was Naomi Harris. Yeah. She has a great, I mean, she plays again, not a spoiler. She's the psychiatrist for the, the spy organization they work for. So privy to a lot of secrets, but she's not a spy. She's sort of on the periphery coaching them and it makes for a good dynamic between the, the, the, the six of them. Um, but she gets some really like fraught scenes and real draw drama to sort of get sink her teeth into.

[00:19:18] And I, I, having only seen her in a few things and just like the Bond movies of late, like I'm glad I saw a little bit more out of Naomi in a spy film. Yeah. I think, I think she's got a strong career ahead of her. I think the character she played in this, um, she played quite subtly considering she would be as a character, someone that knows more intimately about the character, about

[00:19:46] the people that these characters are in her line of work. Obviously they reveal as much as they want to reveal, but, um, I feel like she, the character she played could have been more manipulative on the surface and actually that's revealed bit by bit, which I think is probably good manipulation of the audience as well as the characters she's with. Mm-hmm. Well, I feel like the entire cast, and I said this to you on the car coming back, it's an

[00:20:14] exercise in restraint by everyone. I think this is what really, it's like the word I underlined when I wrote this in my phone. Yeah. I did underline it was restraint because all of these actors I've seen go huge. You've got that written down too, right? Yeah. Everything is incredibly controlled. Yeah. Who's in control, how much control they're showing, even, even to do with the acting as well. There's a, there's a real element of, of control and restraint there.

[00:20:40] And I think like given, you know, Cam and I are partial to like watching a spy kids film and stuff where everything's wacky and huge. Like this is, this is a refreshing palette cleanse from like, I mean, this is coming out the same week we're talking about a man from uncle film from the 1960s that my memory serves is large and insane. Yeah. So it goes to show the, the sort of variety you can get in the spy movie genre. But I think like this is a bit of a unique beast that Soderbergh and the team have created.

[00:21:09] David Koepp, the writer, sort of made here. Um, so I kind of want to just take us slowly take us out of the non spoiler thing, but before we leave it and go to spoiler zone, like and dislike each. So Hannah, I'll put you up first. What's the like you have of the film? Um, I think I mentioned this to you on the way back from the cinema. Um, something that really struck me was the, the sound design. Okay.

[00:21:38] Um, I think they, they don't use a lot of music where they do. It feels like slightly jumbled and erratic to sort of make the audience feel a bit unsettled and shaken. And I think that was really effective, but the silence was just as effective. I think it was almost, um, like lots of pregnant pauses and, and, and keeping it, keeping you

[00:22:04] waiting for whatever answer, however rhetorical was coming. I thought that was really clever, but also they used, they use the set and the, like a lot of Foley clearly, but like they used a lot. I felt like some conversations were muffled depending on where the camera was and the, and the character. I felt like every in the, I, I'm a food photographer. So obviously I was looking at some of the food shots in there, of which there were a couple,

[00:22:30] but there was like suitable squishes and splashes and door, even like door clicks doors felt heavy, which they would in a building that was made of secrets, you know, like things. It felt, I only ever noticed when the sound design is either very good or incredibly bad. And I don't feel like it, I don't feel like it was bad on this one. I felt like I came away thinking, Oh yeah, that was sort of strangely visceral in places, eerily

[00:23:00] quiet in others. And I felt like that was really effective. Well, you know, you can, um, walk into many films, like Marvel films or whatever, manufactured genre films and be like that. I'm not going to discredit the sound department from those films. I'm sure they all work very hard, but like, it's more of a, when there's less sound in your film, like this is quite a silent film. It's not a silent, silent film, but there's a lot of silence to be used. It means you have to use the sound around you to try and tell the story.

[00:23:28] And the audio department becomes part of the storytelling process. Yeah. And I think they've weaponized that. I think they've used that to its full potential to help sell a story. Yeah. Um, which I think speaks to a guy that's been making films for a very long time, uh, and, and the team behind it, but you know, you could very lazily just sort of go, yeah. So he, he closes the oven door and he goes for like, whatever. But they're like, but why is he closing the oven door that way? Why is he doing it so heavily? Is he worried about something thunk?

[00:23:58] Like he's really worried about something. It didn't feel lazy. Okay. So in this movie, I don't, this is certainly isn't a spoiler, a fast bender. There's a lot of walking involved. He's walking about all over the shot, walking shots. If you cut walking shots out, it'd be a 60 minute film. Sure. That said, you never really, it's never about like building the atmosphere. It was literally just watching him move. And it could have been, you know, you could have been overwhelmed with like leaves crunching

[00:24:27] or like street atmosphere as if it was, as if the world around him is takes over him. But actually the sound where it could have been more about world building there was deadened because he's, he's processing something very much in his head. And you can, as an, as a character, you can tell he's in his head a lot. He's constantly questioning things. He's like very taught and exacting in his movements, in his expressions.

[00:24:55] And you can tell a lot of, a lot of what he's thinking and feeling is internal, which is in sharp contrast to at least two or three of the other characters, including, including Catherine, his wife. But like, I think they use, that's why I think the sound stood out to me is that it could have been, I noticed it when I needed to notice it. But I also noticed when it wasn't there and it was entirely to do with character driven

[00:25:22] and not to do with the scene, which I thought was really clever. Well, it goes back to that old, I don't know if Sting came up with this, but I always credit it to Sting of being like the, the notes you don't play are as important as the ones you do play. Hannah doesn't like Sting that much, but I think he's a great- I don't like the stickers that much. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think it sort of serves the point. And I think like that speaks to the craftsmanship behind this film. And if we're answering the question, like, is this a worth of watch? We'll get to it in a minute. Okay.

[00:25:52] This might not be chock full of rah, rah, sis, boom, rah explosions. And like, you know, big shootouts or anything like that. Sorry, that might be a slight spoiler that doesn't feature these things, but I don't think it's being sold as that. So that's okay. For me, like is just that exactly what I said. It doesn't rely on the ticky boxes that you get from a lot of spy movies.

[00:26:18] I mean, you know, there's not many more coming out this year that are sort of big splashy spy movies. You've got The Accountant 2, which is full of Ben Affleck shooting people. You've got the Rami Malek one. I've forgotten the name of that's him shooting people. Lots of explosions in that. Lots of explosions. A guy gets destroyed in the middle of a pool and permits. The Amateur. The Amateur, I think that sounds right. Yeah. Thank you, Hannah, for knowing more than I do about spy movies. And Mission Impossible Final Reckoning, I think it was called.

[00:26:49] And of course, that's going to have some great dunce. They're going to be talking about it for years. He's the modern Buster Keaton. I totally get it. But of all those, I think the one that's going to be looked back on for the best drama work in 2025 is Black Bag. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Yes. Potentially. I think people will watch it and rewatch it.

[00:27:16] I don't think it'll like be mega memorable. I don't think no. I don't think this will be particularly popular even on streaming. I don't think it's really targeted. I think it'll be popular on streaming. I think it'll be a really good one for people to catch up with. I think it'll be massive on streaming. I just, people can't go to the cinema with the prices and the, it's ludicrous. Well, hang on, hang on. We're just getting there. So you maybe have given your answer away for that one, but I'll put it back to you in a second. A dislike.

[00:27:48] Oh, um, dislike. There were a couple of moments in the, oh, but it's all just like weird specific to me. Like, it's your experience in the film. So like if it speaks to you and you want to share it, share it. Hmm. I did say, well, there was a lot, there was a lot of walking.

[00:28:13] I like, you know, I know a scene has to be established somehow, but like, I think we, I think we watched him do something really mundane at least twice. And, and it wasn't like character building and it wasn't like a, a, a sensible pause between two really high octane scenes. It wasn't, it wasn't to have a reset as an audience member. It didn't tell us anything about his character. There wasn't a close on his face to tell us he's maybe thinking of something at that point

[00:28:42] while he's doing something mundane. I think. Yeah, there was a, there was a couple of pauses there, which I was all like, okay, so he's a, so he wanders around his nice house in the roll neck. I get it. I mean, you would, wouldn't you? Oh, I mean, his house was glorious. The house was glorious. It makes you, it makes you think that, uh, we really should take up the, uh, Spycraft game. Yeah. Yeah. Apart from all the lying. Terrible. Black bag stuff. Yeah. I'm terrible liar.

[00:29:12] You'd think after five years of doing this podcast, I'd be better at it, but you see through me every time. Yeah. I've got a terrible, I mean, I would not do well at Casino Royale playing, uh, poker with Bond. He would see right through me. Le Chiffre would be destroying my balls with rope immediately. I'd be doing a Kim Kardashian and wearing mirrored sunglasses whilst playing. So. I feel like that might be bad. I'd be careful going into casinos with that. Of course it's Bond. You can see the cards, you dope.

[00:30:07] We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Scott and I are booking passage and heading to Poland to tackle the 2013 TV adaptation of Alan Furst's novel, Spies of Warsaw, starring David Tennant and written by never say never again, scribes, Dick Clement and Ian LaFrenet. How will this journey turn out? Who knows? Let's find out. So accept your mission and help support your favorite spy movie podcast at patreon.com slash spyhards.

[00:30:34] But before we activate the fourth protocol, let's get back to the spy jinx. My dislike is kind of a contrarian point to my like, and that is also going to lead into my like, would you would I recommend you go and pay money in a cinema to go and see it? Oh, and that is like quite a bit of this feels staged. And I don't mean staged as in like, obviously, it's a film. This is not a documentary.

[00:31:03] I mean, as in like this, this would make a perfect stage play. There are no big explosions. It is character drama for 90 minutes with six people sitting at a dining table for good portions of the film. And like, it's beautifully lit and it's well acted and there's good music. You can get all of that if you go and see a stage play down the West End. I don't know if it because they rate films now sometimes behind the scenes is if like,

[00:31:33] is it worth seeing it on the big screen? And that's a question we'll come to but I don't know what's gained from seeing this on the big screen apart from saying hey, I saw Black Bag. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I normally say like, oh, am I going to see it in the cinema? Am I going to see it on the plane? Like that's normally like a sliding scale of is it worth watching for the visuals? I don't think it's, I don't think it's plane worthy, but you could watch it on a plane and get the I think you, yeah, you'd get it. Especially in some headphones. Yeah.

[00:32:03] Great. You should get some good sound. But that's not to take away from the movie. I think if you haven't seen it, you should see it. And if you can see on the big screen, great. But also if you've got a reasonable size telly, it comes out in six weeks anyway, probably, doesn't it? Well, it's not been confirmed yet, but it's looking to be that that way. And, you know, times are hard. And, you know, I have a Cineworld card. You know, there are other, you know, cinema chains in the UK and around the world. But that's the one that happens to be closest to me and you.

[00:32:34] And so we went there because I could, because I'm paying for the ability to go as much as I want. But we like to support cinema. And we do. We try to go to local cinemas and we can when we're in London and stuff. I go to the Prince Charles cinema quite a bit. Like, you know, I do my part there.

[00:32:49] But if if someone's saying to me, Scott, Hannah, should I be spending, you know, 13 pounds or, you know, 16 bucks more in America or like more for the luxurious seating in like Odeans and stuff like that to go and see this film? My answer would be no. I'd say wait and watch it on streaming. It's a it's a good film. And I think there might be knock list discussions in its future when Cam and I get together and talk about it because I really enjoyed it.

[00:33:17] If I haven't said that enough, like overall, I think this is a fantastic film. Yeah, I don't think your hard earned money is best spent on this when you can have almost identical experience watching it at home. I I kind of disagree. Okay. I mean, I agree with a lot of your points. Yes. But I also think that that's just marriage for you, isn't it really? Yeah, like I'm just Mary Mary quite contrary, I guess.

[00:33:43] Um, it's more that I think cinema like this should be encouraged. Sure. I think more cerebral cinema should be watched in the cinema. I feel like you are, you know, you saw every pore on Fassbender's face as he like quite like quite carefully moved his eyebrow millimeter left or right, depending on the answer.

[00:34:09] You know, there's there was a lot of detail to be gleaned from a cinema watch. And the other the other thing was it wasn't it was an exciting. I was never bored. No. 90 minutes flew by. I never once looked at my watch. Yeah. I was never bored and the visuals are nice. So I don't know where you what do you get getting let people go to the cinema, dude. Hey, no, my point is exactly. We'll take this off air and don't worry. We'll argue about this for two hours after we've been recording.

[00:34:36] It's more of a case of if you are like careful of your money right now. And I know times are hard for a lot of people. I'm just like, is this where your money should be spent? Are there other films you could be spending it on? I'd say maybe consider waiting if you have the free cash to go to the cinema and you have a free evening. Go. It's a good date movie. We had a good time. Hmm. That's but that's my take. Like, I know times are difficult and I don't want people spending the money when they don't necessarily have to. Yeah. But, you know, that's.

[00:35:06] That's the way it is. And so I'm going to give everyone their warning now. If Cam was editing this part of the show, there'd be a klaxon, like a klaxon or red alert would be playing or something like that. Like spoiler talk. We're not going to get too much into it. This is mostly on spoiler, but maybe five minutes will talk about some of the twists and turns in the film and it will start to wrap it up for you all. Warning. Spoilers are coming. Turn it off now. Go and see Black Bag. Let us know if you think it was great or you think I was wrong and people should be going to see it. We'll be talking about it on social media.

[00:35:35] You know, you know where to reach us. But that was a warning. Spoilers are happening now. It's raining spoilers. Hallelujah. A couple of twists and turns in this film. It isn't the adrenaline rush of an Mission Impossible or a James Bond film or anything like that, nor does it purport to be.

[00:35:50] The twist at the end about because basically the whole idea is there is a MacGuffin that was created by the British government that can destroy nuclear power plants, basically, from the inside, like a malware that they can basically send in to destroy power plants as to target nations to take them down because you're causing Chernobyls in countries. But crucially, it has to be delivered in person. It's an in-person, like, physical MacGuffin. Yeah. It's not like someone you can't just you can't just email. You can't just email it. Yeah.

[00:36:18] And so the Brits, you know, the British created this as like a test thing and it leaked out and was being sold on the black market to terrorists. And the idea is it's on the black market and whoever sold it, which turns out to be Pierce Brosnan's character, the boss character. Oh, that's a big spoiler. Well, I did warn people. You did warn people. I did. I did. Like, you know, you've walked into it now.

[00:36:48] I think trying to get a pension out of it or something like he wants to get an out to the business or something like that. It's some sort of like he has some sort of stick up his butt about how the world's being run. And so he ends up basically corralling his agents to turn the power couple of Cate Blanchett and Fassbender against each other because they're the two best agents. If they're fighting each other, they won't notice all the deceit going on in the background.

[00:37:12] What I didn't see was the Reggie Jean page twist about him being the big like not the big bad. That's that's Pierce Brosnan. But like Pierce Brosnan's second hand, you know, the guy doing all the dirty work and then that mini shootout in the house at the end. I did not see that coming. No. I think them coming back round. So obviously the film starts with a dinner party and ends with the same dinner party, a different day, basically. Yeah.

[00:37:43] And actually, the film is set out with days of the week. So you watch this week play out. It might be longer than a week, actually, a little longer. But the same the same dinner guests are invited back round at this time, an empty table, a very cold empty table with a brand new rug under it. And and they're invited to play to play a little game. The same the same the same sort as they did at the beginning of the movie.

[00:38:10] I think that that coming back round was really interesting. They didn't they didn't really sell it as having a big crescendo ending from that. Everyone turned up empty handed and, you know, casually sat down and whatever I did. I was certainly wasn't expecting there to be like blood on the walls literally by the end. But no, I like you kind of like I had an idea blood was coming when the one of the guests mentioned there was a new rug. Hmm.

[00:38:41] Like, yeah, there's going to be some guts and gore and there's a gun on the table like this is a pretty tense scene at the end of the film, because basically everyone's just admitting their guilt to stuff and everyone's being called out for all their deceits. And it's basically the come to Jesus moment, if you will, for the film. It's really interesting. It's really cool because the first scene where they're having dinner, it's introduced really early that one of the dishes has a quite strong truth serum in it.

[00:39:06] And the the you find more about the characters as as it's revealed. Which truths which truths they speak at this dinner and why they're there and who all the connections between them. And then at the final round table, there's no lies left. I think it's really, really interesting that they come back round and do it all again. And the game is the game is the same, but the rules are different.

[00:39:36] And who's playing that game is. Well, yeah, there's a really great line that Fassbender says early on where he's basically commenting to Blanchett after the dinner party that that was a bit rude. They did the they did the game where they passed it. They did like a let's make a resolution, but for the person sitting next to us. And it got quite inflammatory as people's infidelity was pointed out and all sorts of stuff. And after dinner party, it all ended and everyone argued at each other and left.

[00:40:06] Cate Blanchett says like, oh, that was a bit like big. Like, why? Why did you do that? And Fassbender says that was the rock. And I want to now watch the ripples. Yeah. And what an interesting line to write. David kept his pen must have been on fire when that came out. Fantastic line. You're right. And so, like, that's really the idea of the film. The first dinner party is the is the rock. And then the rest of the film is the ripples. You could also argue that the malware virus is severance or severus or whatever it was called.

[00:40:35] There's also the rock in many ways. And it's watching its own ripples. Metaphorically. Well, metaphorically, George's character fishes as part of his leisure time. He uses it to think it's a quiet way of organizing his thoughts. And actually, maybe the metaphor isn't a rock. Maybe it's the fish he's trying to catch. Maybe. Yeah. It would make sense as to using the metaphor of the ripples.

[00:41:04] And then he goes fishing. Like, it all connects. It's visual. Yeah. Well done. But yeah, like, it's not a film full of like Mission Impossible face mask removals and stuff. I can't tell you too much about spoilers. But I suppose the way we can talk about spoilers in a constructive way for people listening, if they've made it this far, is did the twist feel earned for you? Oh, that's an interesting question. Oh, into the fact it wasn't like the only one.

[00:41:34] Sure. I felt like there were lots of little reveals. You were given a chance to change your mind about the characters a couple of times each. I think Naomi Harris did a fantastic job of sort of having that moral background. You know, subtly. She had like a cross on her necklace.

[00:41:59] It was questioned all the way through about her religious background, you know, and the Clarissa character, Marissa Abella, who played it in actually quite a playful. Flirty kind of way, like playing with fire. Yeah, she, yeah, she, she, she came across as obviously very young. And that was played out in the, that was played out in the show as well.

[00:42:24] But she was using, she was using everything she could to try and, to try and keep up with these people or these professional liars. And in the end, she was almost the only one that didn't tell a lie anyway. She was the only one that was truthful all the way through, whilst also trying to seem duplicitous. Well, I mean, there was the load of ecstasy and other people on the side, she was shagging. So she didn't get away scot-free, which I love that term.

[00:42:54] In terms of the MacGuffin and the mission and the blah, blah, blah, and all the, actually being entangled in, in the much larger world threat sort of thing. Ultimately, she was just sleeping around. And, you know, in that sense, she was lying and cheating, I think. But, but in all professional senses, she was the only one that impressed him on the lie detector test and, and ultimately didn't, didn't really do it. We haven't mentioned that scene, the lie detector test, another crucial scene.

[00:43:25] It's, it's like famed throughout the film, Michael Fassbender's character's ability to perform a lie detector test on people, a polygraph test. And if people want to test it and they want to be tested by it and see if they can get through it. And that is one of the final scenes is Fassbender interrogating his dinner guests about their activities through a lie detector test. And it's all shot very beautifully. There's a lot of like chop cuts to different people talking and people answering each other's questions and stuff like that. It's very well put together. And you never see Michael Fassbender.

[00:43:53] You never see his, his voice is just a voiceover asking the questions. Everything is very blunt and, and yes, no, remind yourself of the question. And it's, it's a, it was almost like, you know, the montage in like terrible teen movies where they like figure out, figure out each other's character and like tell the story, move the story along with a little montage.

[00:44:15] It was almost a little montage on how good these people are lying, where, where will the, where the dust settles in all of their storylines so that you can then get onto another twist. It was really, it was really, it was really well timed in the movie. Well, it's basically right before the big reveal of, of Pierce Brosnan being the big bad and Reggie Jean Page being his backup. Like it is leading to the crescendo of the film. And I just think like, I just wanted to take a minute to just acknowledge that beautifully put together scene.

[00:44:41] But yeah, from my side on like the twists and all they earned, I think ultimately this film relies on heavily performances from actors and dramatic tension that is built throughout this film. There are no, there's one action sequence is an explosion. That's it. A bomb, a drone blows up a car. Yeah. That's it. And they did that well. And they did that well. And artfully, I would say. I mean, the destruction of human life maybe isn't that artful, but that's a different discussion.

[00:45:08] But yeah, like it was the end part of the story was, was the catharsis earned? Yes, because we had spent 85 minutes sat dealing with the characters and their internal, like, especially Cate Blanchett and Michael Fassbender, their internal struggles. But you get to spend time in the, in Naomi Harris's therapy office, interrogating the rest of the people in many ways, doing her own version of the polygraph test, testing Cate Blanchett, testing Reggie John Page, testing your favorite guy whose name I've forgotten.

[00:45:35] And they're all having therapy, you know, Kraft or Stalk or whatever his name is. I don't know the character's name in that TV show. So one word name. Chalk? What was it? Strike. Tom Burke. Strike. Turkey. Three strikes. Yeah, there we go. Um, yeah, like testing all that. There's a, I think like ultimately was it an earned payoff? Yes, because it's a character drama and the end result is a character reveal and a dramatic reveal at the end. Like it is not a big shootout.

[00:46:04] There is a bullet fired and that's about it. Um, will spy fans who come to spy movies for Bond and Mission Impossible and Austin Powers nonsense and things like that? I don't mean nonsense in a bad way, but that type of spy movie. I don't know if necessarily they'll be meeting this one with open arms. They might enjoy it, but I think like if that's what you come to spy movies for, I think you'll have a little bit more like this is not what I'm used to.

[00:46:30] I think there's more to, I think there's probably more to espionage than all the running about. I think, I think this is probably closer to the life of a spy agent or, you know, I think this is closer than, than any of the more extreme, very cartoonish. I'm not sure that's their job title on their contract. Spy agent. Spy agent, number one. What do you do for the government? I'm a spy agent. I'm a spy agent. It's a double, it's like a double negative.

[00:46:59] Like I'm a, I'm a spy agent. So am I, am I spying on the fact that I'm an agent? Am I like spying on myself? Listen, I'm a spy agent. Okay. Just don't stop questioning it. Is that on like a big pointy hat you have to wear like in the corner? Spy agent. I'm such a spy agent. It's such a spy agent thing to say, to say they're a spy agent. To be fair, we've heard worse in many years of spy movies, but no, I, I, I think you're right. And I think like, would I recommend it to go see it in theaters? No, but did I actually enjoy this film? Did I enjoy the twists and turns?

[00:47:29] Did I enjoy the performances? Yes. And I, I'll have the conversation with Cam about the knock list down the road. Yeah, I wouldn't hear what Cam has to say. I do too, because he's got a unique point, much like we both do on a unique outlook. You come to films for character dramas. I come to spy movies for actually, I'm more of an action driven guy. I was saying that about my other people, but that's actually more my thing too. Like I like the big action films, the, the, the Jack Ryan's, the, the James Bond's Mission Impossible.

[00:47:55] So this for me is a different thing, but if you like your slower, like Le Carre adaptations and stuff, this is right up your street. If you love slow horses, right up your street. Like this is pucker for those, those people out there. And if you like a bit of everything, go and check it out too. But yeah, so for me, for me, it's getting a thumbs up at least. Yeah, absolutely. And I, can I have a little shout out to all the like use of costume and things like that? No. Oh, okay. No, go ahead. Go ahead.

[00:48:24] I think whoever's dressing Cate Blanchett for this, lovely, beautiful. Like she, and she works it like nothing else. Like Fassbender, he always wears like a crisp shirt and the, and everything is like, you can't see, you can, he's, he's got a roll neck on his glasses and never like not straight. They're quite a bold feature on his face. And he's only ever like, it's all, everything's very stiff and ironed and whatever.

[00:48:52] And then Catherine, Cate Blanchett's character, she, she wears, everything is like silky or expressive or loose and flowing. And then at every point where, where Fassbender's like stood in the doorway, like a, like a physical door, like she, she's, she, as a character drapes over things. And she always, she's always taking a layer off. I just thought that was so great in terms of storytelling.

[00:49:21] She, and she always took it off like a strip tease. I know I said this was a sexy movie. It's a sexy movie, but like she just, every, every scene she's like, she's taking a scarf off or taking a thing off. And, and every time she does it, it looks like she's aware of being watched. It's fantastic bit of storytelling. She's so aware that people are watching her, whether it's Fassbender as her husband or

[00:49:49] Fassbender as a, as the, as a spy, spy agent, you know, it's, it's really, really fascinating. She's so comfortable in being observed that almost her every move, even if, even if we know that he's in the other room, I thought it was really good. Well, I, I, I do agree with you. I think like the taking off and putting on of layers, like an onion kind of a layer thing, like that all goes into the spy thing and, and, and peeling back the, the relationship

[00:50:17] that they've got, because we didn't really talk about, but this whole idea of their relationship is they're like, I don't like using modern parlance too much, but they're ride or die. Ooh. Um, and that's, that's the idea though, is that they, they will defend each other and kill for each other and they will always look at each other's backs, but they'll still lie to each other. And it's a, it's a unique dynamic. And you know, this film gets into like, what is the reality of being in a relationship with a different, another spy? You're both spies. Your job is about lying. How do you trust someone who professionally lies?

[00:50:46] And has a, and has an out, has somewhere they can be with no questions asked, you know? Yeah. Like I can't tell you where I was yesterday. Black bag. Yeah. Black bag. Um, and I will just, it was a really cool premise. It's a great concept. I think like, I I'm surprised more spy movies haven't really dug into that side of things. Um, I think this is a really good example of digging into the, the morality and the, the complications of being in a relationship with a spy.

[00:51:12] Well, I also think it's quite an interesting concept for just relation, a relationship drama, like take away the spy element. And I think there's a conversation to be had about a black bag element to any relationship, whether you can be too honest or too open or have secrets from your partner for the, for their good or for your good or for their safety or for, you know, the levels of privacy that you feel comfortable with.

[00:51:40] I think it's, it's all definitely worth a conversation. And, you know, I know you said like, go, if you can go to the cinema, take, take your other half. I did say this is a good date movie. I think this is an interesting, and I think it would lead to like interesting conversations at dinner afterwards. Like, you know, what is, what's, what's in our black bag? Hannah, like, do we dare discuss that on the air? Probably not. Maybe after, when we go have dinner after recording this, and I will just come back to your costuming thing because I do my research.

[00:52:10] The costume in this film was done by a lady called Ellen Mirojnik. And I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing her surname. She was nominated for an Oscar for the costumes of Oppenheimer. Oh, cool. And she's done a ton of stuff. But what I think you'll know her most from is doing the costumes for Bridgerton. Oh, so she's dressed reggae already. She has. Yeah. So there's a, there's a connection there. And her last spy movie was Agent Cody Banks back in 2002 with Frankie Muniz. So she's been a while away from the spy world, but I'm glad to have her back.

[00:52:40] Hmm. But I think that sort of brings us to a bit of a conclusion there. Like, you know, I think if you're, if the money's not there and, you know, you're questioning whether you should go, maybe don't. But if you've got like a pass to go to the theaters, I would say go and enjoy it whilst it's in theaters because it's probably going to get pulled in about two weeks time anyway. Hannah, you think it's just go see it anyway? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's sexy. I think it's stylish. I think it's nuanced.

[00:53:09] I think it's a bit more of a thinker. It's non patronizing. I think if you just want an explosion, then just rewatch one of, one of the Mission Impossibles, I guess, and then let your brain rot. Oh, she's coming in hot at the end. Mike dropping and leaving the podcast never to return. I may, I may never get a chance to return. I'm just going to say this. They are garbage, aren't they? No, get out of here, Hannah. No, I'm going to get hate mail for this. Black bag, black bag. Shove it in that bag. Put it in the river. Put it in the black bag, folks.

[00:53:39] We don't, we don't discuss Hannah's appearance on the show. I'm sorry. I'll take it back. I'm sorry. Please stop, please stop unsubscribing. Yeah, please stop unsubscribing. I take it. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Thank you all for tuning in to the episode. I hope this has been helpful on your decision as to whether to go see a black bag or not. To be fair, I think, I think you'll get more out of it by going than not. So I've sort of been swayed, I think, during this conversation. Maybe go and see it. Hannah's definitely on board. I wonder what Cam will say.

[00:54:08] We'll find out down the road when we tackle this as a full episode. I'll leave you with a couple of thoughts. First and foremostly, I want to say thank you to my darling, darling wife, Hannah Hughes, for sitting in a different room with the dog whilst I sit upstairs in the dark. Thanks for having me on, finally. For those who don't know, Hannah has been doing the artwork for the show every week for the last coming on five years now.

[00:54:37] And if you don't pay attention to this, and I suggest that you do, we put out a unique bit of artwork every single week for every review that we do. And every single interview has a unique artwork as well. And some of them have caused the biggest rows between the two of us that you can even imagine. And it's usually for the least listened to episodes. Yeah, we do. That's it's basically we don't argue.

[00:55:00] We all we have a we're really lucky and work on having a really happy and communicative and open minded loving marriage. But I swear to God, this artwork sometimes, sometimes Scott Hardy. I swear to God. So what I'm saying is, if you see the artwork online, send more praise. So that at least it's worth it. For the love of God, like it. Because those seven people that consistently do, that's all. This is you're the ones I do it for. OK.

[00:55:30] Thank you to those seven people on Instagram that like the artwork. We appreciate you. And we appreciate it. And I say that as a we because I can talk on behalf of Cam. I honestly do. Thank you, Hannah, for doing this every week. Even when we're away at a holiday, you've done stuff like it. It is a labor of love, not just for Cam and I, but you're part of the Spyheart family, too. And I'd like to say a big thank you to Cam for keeping me like keeping you entertained enough so I can watch the trash on the TV. All right. Yeah.

[00:55:59] While I'm upstairs in the dark. Yeah. You're like, I'm going to record and I'm like, oh, great. That's perfect. Then I can actually watch Bridgerton. Sorry. And that's how you get your like Ellen Mirojnik film. Yeah. Yeah. I know that. I know that completely destroys any the last hour of recordings worth of opinion. Sorry. It's OK. It's OK. People just people. I genuinely tell you this is the truth. I'm happy to finally hear from you because I've spoken about you on the show for five years.

[00:56:27] Like, it's nice to know you exist and not just a made up wife that I don't have. Oh, yeah. No, I'm real. I promise. For her sins. But that is Black Bag. I hope it was helpful for you to listen to. I hope you had a good time listening to it. Go out and see the film. Support your theater if you can, because it'll be on Amazon Prime or Netflix, I'm sure, before you know it. And you'll watch it half while folding laundry and not pay attention to some of the wonderful work that the actors and the cinematographer and the sound designer went into. So do it. Do it. Why not?

[00:56:56] Hey, he gets a spy hard seal of approval. That was Black Bag. But moving on next week, we're talking about Steven Soderbergh this week. Next week, we're talking to a very big name, a name we've been chasing since the first year of the show. Next week, we are talking to the one and only Shane Black. Yes, that Shane Black.

[00:57:25] Yes, the guy behind Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Iron Man 3. The nice guys. Hell, he was in Predator. Last action hero. I could keep going. And of course, the long kiss goodnight. We talk about it all. I can't believe it happened. You know, people talk about watershed moments on the show, some of our big interviews. This is one of them. Set your dial to Spy Hard's next Tuesday. Shane Black interview is dropping and blowing your minds.

[00:57:51] And he even talks about James Bond and what he will do with the franchise going forward. I'll just wet your whistle there. Super exciting. So it is. It is. Thank you. So your mission, folks, should you choose to accept it, is to join us next week as we sit down with Shane Black to talk about the long kiss goodnight and much, much more. And he's a big, big Matt Helm fan, by the way, folks. I did not know that going into this. But he is not a big fan of the big screen Matt Helm. But we'll leave that to Shane to explain.

[00:58:18] If you want to help support Spy Hard's, there was an ad probably in the middle of the show if Cam had time to edit it. If he didn't, here's your ad. Patreon.com slash Spy Hard's. If you think 350 episodes isn't enough, there's another 100 over there. Go and give us a tiny bit of dough. Get all those extra bits of spy jinx in your ears. Hey, it can't hurt. You've saved the money by not going to the cinema. Just pay it to these guys. Well, that was an unsolicited seal of approval. Do what Hannah said. Don't trust me.

[00:58:48] Go join us over there. We have a great group of people who love spy movies. They're talking about spy films with us over there. And if you want to continue the conversation on social media for free, at Spy Hard's, wherever you might social media, yes, and even X, you can find us over there for our sins. Come and talk about Black Bag with us. Let us know what you think. Let us know if you think we should be seeing it in theaters. And if you think it would make the knock list before me and Cam get to it.

[00:59:11] But until next week, folks, Hannah and I are off to discuss what's in our black bags. Are you really not going to talk about this? Are you really not going to talk about this part? Well, after this, our show is going to be a little bit more thing with us. Are you okay, Matt?