Shifting Your Experience of Reality: A Chat with/Kevin Utley, Holistic Engineer & Mindset Coach

[00:00:02] Welcome to Dose of Depth podcast. I'm your host, Deborah Lukovich, and I invite you to explore what's beneath the surface of all sorts of things, including your own life. Through conversation, stories, and education, you'll see what you couldn't see before, find new meaning in old events, and even discover a new sense of purpose out there in the world. Let's get started.

[00:00:29] In this episode, I'm excited to talk to my new friend, Kevin Utley, Holistic Engineer and Mindset Coach. As a personal coach and audio mixing professional, Kevin guides individuals towards self-discovery and inner harmony through mindset coaching and mix coaching. He is also a devoted family man practicing Kung Fu and creating conscious music that integrates spiritual insights into his art.

[00:00:56] At his core, Kevin believes in the journey of self-mastery. Through coaching, audio mixing and workshops, he empowers others to embrace their authentic selves, find their flow and realize that true balance and purpose come from within. Kevin created the Flow State Mindset Program, which blends timeless principles with modern coaching strategies to help people find balance and purpose in a chaotic world. Kevin describes his midlife journey as emptiness to impact, and we'll hear about that from

[00:01:26] Kevin Utley. I love his story. I love his story. I love his story because it aligns perfectly with CG Jung's theory of individuation, the framework I use with my clients. We all spend the first part of our lives building our identity, setting ourselves apart from the herd, without realizing how the mysterious forces of our unconscious are pushing and prodding us in certain directions. We're not aware of how we develop patterns and thinking and behaving in response to experiences way back in childhood. Those patterns prompt us to avoid

[00:01:56] certain situations that might cause pain and to pursue other situations that validate us or make us feel safe. These patterns are also what make us excel at certain things. Our brain seeks out stimulus and data to reinforce what has worked in the past. And then one day, we're faced with a new challenge or a desire to change up our lives. But some of those patterns are in the way. They're so entrenched, it's hard to change them.

[00:02:23] Sometimes a dramatic, negative experience can force us to overcome old patterns quickly. But for most of us, it's the beginning of a lifelong process of coming to know ourselves more deeply, unfolding newer and more conscious versions of ourselves.

[00:02:39] Inherent in this process is the desire to create, inspired by our deepest needs, which have been ignored or repressed or hidden from us. Suffering through this transformative process can lead to a renewed sense of purpose and meaning and creative expression.

[00:02:54] Whether it's a new way to relate to our connection. Whether it's a new way to relate to our parents or children, a new business, or literal pieces of art, music, writing. It's beautiful.

[00:03:02] We're drawn to movies about this kind of overcoming and transformation because our unconscious wants this for us to live life more fully.

[00:03:11] This is where Kevin comes in. We have an inner wisdom that we can tap into, but we're so used to the mind leading us, it can be hard to hear the whispers of our soul, our unconscious, our deep selves.

[00:03:22] This is what we're digging into today. How to develop a practice that allows us to slip into that state where we can tap into our inner wisdom.

[00:03:32] So let's get started.

[00:03:34] Welcome, Kevin. How are you doing?

[00:03:37] Hey, what's up, Deb? I appreciate you having me today. I'm doing good. Grateful, flowing. How's everything going for you?

[00:03:43] Oh, good. I know I can feel your flowing energy. We're going to have a great talk.

[00:03:47] So I just thought I'd start by like, what's going on this week? Anything interesting happen this week? And, you know, just how's it going?

[00:03:58] Yeah, yeah. Pretty steady week. Our newborn is due in about a month, about five weeks.

[00:04:05] Oh my gosh. Congratulations.

[00:04:08] Thank you. Yeah, it's our second baby.

[00:04:10] Oh, and well, oh my gosh. How old is your first one?

[00:04:17] Our first one is about two and a half. You just passed two and a half.

[00:04:20] That's perfect. That's perfect.

[00:04:22] Yeah.

[00:04:22] I don't, I don't recommend like that's on the edge. Mine were two years apart. And I was like, I never suggest that to anybody.

[00:04:30] Two years is too close.

[00:04:32] So, all right. All right. Well, you're, you're in, you're in nesting mode.

[00:04:37] Oh, absolutely. Like to the 10th degree, my wife, especially, she's had a pretty rough pregnancy, just on the side of like nausea, which wasn't ever the case with our first born.

[00:04:46] So, so this time has been very challenging, but you know, amidst that building the practice at home, learning to just keep myself sane and integrate mindfulness with it.

[00:04:59] So I've been practicing my Kung Fu and I broke out the slack line the other day and I've just been trying to really ground myself out and, and just pace, find flow and pace.

[00:05:10] Well, it's like pushing you to become even better.

[00:05:15] Absolutely.

[00:05:16] Yeah.

[00:05:17] Take it up for a notch.

[00:05:18] Cool. Well, unfortunately, like really, we, you know, transformation requires challenge and little suffering.

[00:05:26] So, or a lot, or a lot, at least a little or a lot for me, for me, it required a lot.

[00:05:32] I agree.

[00:05:33] So, okay, let's start with your juicy personal story, how we got here.

[00:05:38] So it seems when I read your story on your website that it seems like you were always sensitive, even starting in childhood about what was you were like, you had a big, a greater awareness, I would say maybe than most people did.

[00:05:52] But I'm interested in the inciting incident.

[00:05:56] I'm interested in the pivotal moment where, you know, you had to, the suffering part where you had to like make this choice where there were two things that were in opposition that you had to suffer through and then make the choice.

[00:06:08] So for me, I essentially had to be definitely tricked.

[00:06:14] And now when I look back, I guess at a certain point we make decisions, you know, that are driven by our unconscious, but this was the first decision where I could not find a reasonable explanation for what I had to do.

[00:06:30] And it was because I sort of surrendered in a moment that I didn't realize at the time where there was this opening for a synchronicity to reach me.

[00:06:39] And it really was this logo in the back of a Yoga Journal magazine where I was like, what is depth psychology?

[00:06:48] And for three weeks, it was secret.

[00:06:50] I was doing the research.

[00:06:52] I'm like, this can't be the only place where they offer this program, California.

[00:06:56] And how can I make that happen?

[00:06:58] And it was like the first time in my life where I was like, I have no idea, but I just have to make it happen.

[00:07:03] And it set certain things in motion.

[00:07:06] And all the suffering was sort of ahead.

[00:07:09] And, you know, it's not really like the truth that causes the suffering.

[00:07:15] It's the resistance to the truth.

[00:07:18] So that was my experience.

[00:07:21] What's yours?

[00:07:22] I'd be lying if I said there was just one.

[00:07:24] Oh, okay.

[00:07:25] Well, what do they say about the heroes, you know, the invitation to the hero's journey?

[00:07:30] We usually decline it a couple of times.

[00:07:33] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:35] And then there's, like, it's a fractal.

[00:07:38] So how life unfolds is I feel like there's all these different seasons to it.

[00:07:43] And this same ultimate hero's journey can be examined in the maybe the cascading events of your entire life.

[00:07:49] And then maybe even like the microcosm of a year or a few years or maybe even just the day.

[00:07:54] And that's something I've grown in affinity and appreciation for and even have been humbled through.

[00:08:00] Just realizing that, you know, it's as truthful on the smallest scale and is truthful on the largest scale too.

[00:08:08] But if I had to narrow it in at least on one that we could maybe build some orbit around.

[00:08:14] When I was 24, 25, like in the end of 2014, I had spent most of my life living in Central California, which is where I was born and which is where I was raised.

[00:08:29] And had some pretty tumultuous upbringing.

[00:08:32] Found a lot of love.

[00:08:33] Found a lot of, found art and music as a means of therapy and even spiritual exploration as a means of therapy.

[00:08:40] Which in my early 20s led me to psychedelic use, which I'm pretty sure we can dive into a little later.

[00:08:45] But over the few months to pass that, I just grew this deep, deep urge to explore beyond the city that I grew up in.

[00:08:58] Which was, you know, gang culture, drugs, mixed with like cowboys and farmlands.

[00:09:06] To give people kind of a synopsis of what it's like in Central California.

[00:09:11] And that was all fine and well, but it just wasn't really promoting any novelty in my life.

[00:09:17] It felt like it was just kind of stagnating, moving sideways.

[00:09:21] And I'd gotten done with my certification in recording arts in college.

[00:09:25] I was working a bunch of different random jobs.

[00:09:28] And just nothing was feeling satisfied.

[00:09:32] And so my wife and I, at the time we were just dating, we were heading up to Yosemite National Park, which is only about two hours away from our hometown.

[00:09:41] And we were hiking pretty regularly.

[00:09:44] And this would go on at least like once a month.

[00:09:47] And we were just like, wow, we used to love it out in nature.

[00:09:49] Like it's so amazing out here.

[00:09:50] And well, her and her mom, which is now my mother-in-law, they were at one of the diners in Yosemite.

[00:09:58] And they started talking with one of the servers.

[00:10:02] And he had informed them that if you're working there, you can actually live there.

[00:10:07] And they were like, wow, that's pretty cool.

[00:10:09] So she had shared that with me.

[00:10:11] And I was like, hey, yeah, that sounds really fascinating.

[00:10:13] So we went ahead and started applying for jobs.

[00:10:18] And I got accepted.

[00:10:20] Like they actually started to interview me over the phone.

[00:10:22] I found out about a gig.

[00:10:24] It was a very simple gig.

[00:10:24] It was just working at a deli.

[00:10:27] And did the interview, scored the interview, like nailed it.

[00:10:31] And then they had extended the job to me.

[00:10:33] And I got really afraid.

[00:10:34] And I was like, well, I've always lived in like this house with my family.

[00:10:38] And I've never gone out of these bounds of my familiarity of being in, you know, bands or hip hop groups, going to school, working these random jobs.

[00:10:47] I don't know if I'm ready for that.

[00:10:50] And so I actually backed out of it.

[00:10:52] And I denied it.

[00:10:53] I declined it.

[00:10:55] Three months went by.

[00:10:56] And it was just kept digging at me.

[00:11:00] It was like, no, this sounds really freaking cool.

[00:11:02] You know, I love hiking.

[00:11:03] I love the outdoors.

[00:11:04] I need some mystery.

[00:11:06] And so I decided to reapply.

[00:11:09] And I went through another interview process.

[00:11:12] Nailed it.

[00:11:13] And they extended the gig to me.

[00:11:15] And they were like, are you sure you're really ready this time?

[00:11:17] Because I remember last time the HR had told me they were like, you know, you kind of backed out.

[00:11:21] So we don't want to put all this process into initiating you and orienting you.

[00:11:25] And then you just bail again.

[00:11:26] I was like, no, I'm ready.

[00:11:28] I'm really ready this time.

[00:11:29] And so in March of 2015, I moved to Yosemite National Park.

[00:11:36] And so did my come-to-be wife later on.

[00:11:40] And I found myself in a really strange place.

[00:11:45] I found myself in a 10x12 tent with canvas siding with bears and deer and raccoons trying to get into my food.

[00:11:56] Wild, crazy hippies.

[00:11:58] And we were all sharing, you know, maybe three kitchens, three restroom facilities.

[00:12:04] But there's like hundreds of us.

[00:12:07] And every sickness flows through there.

[00:12:10] And you catch it.

[00:12:11] There's no if.

[00:12:12] There's when.

[00:12:14] And so, yeah.

[00:12:15] And then you got to get really used to like not just kind of tuning out everybody's chatter, everybody's gossip and drama.

[00:12:23] But there's a lot of beauty that comes with it, right?

[00:12:25] I was able to let go of my sort of previous definition of self and how I connected to maybe some of the more tumultuous aspects of what was going on in my house growing up.

[00:12:41] And it gave me a chance to just breathe.

[00:12:43] And I ended up getting into, you know, rock climbing, all kinds of great things.

[00:12:48] But the point I need to kind of jump back on and share, which I kind of skated over, was the choice to make the decision was a really difficult one.

[00:12:57] And a friend of mine actually helped me make that decision.

[00:13:03] And I was up late at night on the second.

[00:13:05] It was the second time that I was going to take the job on.

[00:13:07] Right.

[00:13:08] And I was in a cold sweat.

[00:13:10] And I was like freaking out, man.

[00:13:11] I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do.

[00:13:12] It's out of my control.

[00:13:14] Like, I don't like what if I go and what if it's terrible?

[00:13:17] Or what if I, you know, end up broke?

[00:13:19] I like I don't know.

[00:13:19] I've never been in this sort of situation.

[00:13:21] I've ever been out on my own.

[00:13:24] And I called a really good friend of mine.

[00:13:25] My like pretty much my brother since I was age of five.

[00:13:28] We've been best friends.

[00:13:29] And he had spent the last like three years living in China on a whim.

[00:13:34] And he had just gone.

[00:13:35] Didn't know a lick of Mandarin.

[00:13:37] Just said, I'm going to China.

[00:13:39] You know, because he kind of went through his own process.

[00:13:42] And so I called him.

[00:13:43] And it was, you know, it was the middle of the night for me.

[00:13:46] But I'm pretty sure it was like the middle of the day for him.

[00:13:48] So I called him and I drove over to like a local grocery store.

[00:13:51] We were just sitting in the car penting and just started talking to him about it.

[00:13:54] And he's like, well, look, man, like if you go,

[00:13:58] what's the worst thing that can happen?

[00:14:00] I'm like, I could not be good at the job or be uncomfortable.

[00:14:04] And it could just really blow.

[00:14:06] And he was like, well, he's all then what?

[00:14:09] I was like, I guess I never thought then what?

[00:14:10] I was like, I guess then I could do something else.

[00:14:12] He's like, exactly.

[00:14:14] He's also if you he's off, you go.

[00:14:16] He's all it could really suck.

[00:14:18] He's all if that's the case, that's OK.

[00:14:20] You can always move back to your hometown or you could move somewhere else.

[00:14:24] He's like, you're not going to be a bum on the street.

[00:14:26] He he's like, you're not going to be you know, you're not going to make some heinous

[00:14:30] mistake that's that you can't recover from.

[00:14:32] He's like, but you're going to have a really great experience either way.

[00:14:36] I was like, yeah, that's right.

[00:14:37] You're right.

[00:14:38] And I think that was a that was something that I felt like forged a new template in my

[00:14:44] own subconscious and my own self-identity, my own individuation process that unfolded into

[00:14:51] entrepreneurism, navigating grief of both my folks passing unexpectedly and so many other

[00:14:56] things, going into marriage, working at the park because I transitioned through so many

[00:14:59] jobs there.

[00:15:01] But yeah, so that's that's how I would answer that question.

[00:15:05] Hmm.

[00:15:05] I love it because in hindsight, you're like, what was the big deal?

[00:15:11] Right.

[00:15:12] But there's something there's something that your unconscious knew and you were so it was

[00:15:18] like torturing you.

[00:15:21] And don't you sometimes think like, why are you making me even want this?

[00:15:27] Right.

[00:15:28] So it is like this calling, the seducing, the seduction.

[00:15:33] And at the same time, you're like, what?

[00:15:36] I don't what what it what?

[00:15:38] Right.

[00:15:38] It's so so that's that tension between you're being called to something and you're like,

[00:15:45] can I just do without this?

[00:15:47] Then your unconscious is like, no, no, you can't.

[00:15:51] So you're going to have to do it.

[00:15:52] Absolutely.

[00:15:52] I love it.

[00:15:53] I love it.

[00:15:53] Absolutely.

[00:15:54] Yeah.

[00:15:54] You size it up.

[00:15:55] And also, when you said before about what you were saying about like, you know, these

[00:16:02] these cycles of growth that can happen in a day or over weeks or month, which is why I

[00:16:10] always suggest to people who are journalers to go back at like on New Year's Eve when I'm

[00:16:15] alone, I'm at the bar rereading sort of I'm journaling about what has happened over the

[00:16:20] last year because I lose sight of the growth that I've experienced because I'm still like

[00:16:26] maybe I haven't arrived yet.

[00:16:28] Right.

[00:16:28] And so going back and saying, oh, yeah, in January, here's where I was.

[00:16:34] I was doing this and I was only had this many clients and look at me now.

[00:16:37] And it gives you a whole new perspective and appreciation for your growth.

[00:16:40] But it's also why I got the spiral as a tattoo.

[00:16:44] This was in the beginning of the unraveling of my marriage and life.

[00:16:48] And I was at Pacifica and I just was like, I would go like this every day.

[00:16:54] Yes.

[00:16:55] Death and rebirth.

[00:16:56] Every like I just felt like every day was death and rebirth.

[00:16:59] Something was dying.

[00:17:00] I often didn't know what was being born, which caused me to feel very disoriented and ungrounded.

[00:17:07] But I'm like every day.

[00:17:08] I don't feel that way anymore.

[00:17:10] But for years, I felt like it every day.

[00:17:14] So, yeah, yeah.

[00:17:15] You know, that's that symbol is really cool.

[00:17:16] I actually just saw a post yesterday from this conscious page that I follow.

[00:17:21] And it was showing the spiral.

[00:17:23] And then it showed a three dimensional representation of the spiral.

[00:17:26] And it was, you know, instead of it being in circles, it was cascading up as if you pulled the spiral.

[00:17:32] Well, kind of like a like an auger tool in a garden.

[00:17:36] That's actually, yes, that's actually better.

[00:17:39] Because when you dig down the first time you bring up some dirt, but you always, Carol Young liked the spiral because you always circle back.

[00:17:47] Once you even find your wounds, like my mother complex, my feeling trapped complex, whatever it is.

[00:17:54] Right, right.

[00:17:54] You always circle back to it, but you understand it at a deeper level.

[00:17:59] And you gain a more subtle insight that you wouldn't have been able to see until you circle back around it.

[00:18:07] Maybe the third or the fourth or whatever time.

[00:18:10] And Hermes the trickster is always tricking you, always tricking you back.

[00:18:14] So.

[00:18:15] Yeah.

[00:18:15] Are you familiar?

[00:18:16] Are you familiar with Carlos Castaneda's material?

[00:18:19] Yes.

[00:18:20] Did he?

[00:18:20] Wait.

[00:18:21] Oh, I think so.

[00:18:23] Yeah.

[00:18:23] So he has like a set of like maybe nine different books plus, but his time was spent with Don Juan, who is a Yaki shaman of sorts.

[00:18:33] And they talk about that process as well, not through the lens of Western psychology, but through indigenous Mesoamerican shamanism.

[00:18:41] And the way that he speaks on it is he talks about recapitulation and the process of essentially we take our energy body and we format it into these particular angles and these blockages, so to speak, or these hangups and the wounds and trauma.

[00:18:58] And then we, by going back and revisiting it, we release that personalized power and we are able to adapt it and utilize it again.

[00:19:08] And that each time we're building and we're pulling from that template and then reorchestrating it into basically empowering ourselves on the path of realization.

[00:19:17] Yeah, I like it.

[00:19:18] And also like I think about regression, right?

[00:19:21] So people don't realize that if you watch, well, like me, when I had babies, I like, I'm a book reader.

[00:19:29] So I'm like, well, how do babies develop?

[00:19:32] Like, how does this work?

[00:19:32] And you could notice that right when they started getting clumsy, you could say, oh, something's going to happen.

[00:19:40] There's going to be a jump forward.

[00:19:42] So the jump forward in consciousness collectively and personally is always preceded by a kind of regression because you have to pull back the energy.

[00:19:52] Naturally.

[00:19:53] And then, yeah.

[00:19:55] Yeah.

[00:19:55] I love it.

[00:19:56] I love that.

[00:19:57] But so, oh, okay.

[00:19:59] So this quote on your website by embracing simplicity within, I love that word, awareness transcends circumstances.

[00:20:08] So I think you're saying, or to me, that sounds like you're saying that, and this is kind of what accepting really regression is.

[00:20:18] It's like the surrender, right?

[00:20:20] So by learning to slip into a flow state is simplicity, which is what allows you to change your experience of the same situation.

[00:20:33] So I'm always, you know, my clients who are in crisis, I help them understand that even if their circumstances don't change, they can experience them differently.

[00:20:47] They could, right, go through the day feeling fear and anxiety or whatever, but they, even by spending a couple of minutes in the morning of deep breathing and exhaling and the exhale is what resets the parasympathetic nervous system, that they can have a completely different experience of the same situation.

[00:21:06] So maybe you can talk more about that.

[00:21:10] Yeah.

[00:21:10] And also, if you have any stories, whether it's your own or your clients to sort of help bring that concept to life, that would be great.

[00:21:18] Yeah, totally.

[00:21:19] Yeah, I'll pull from one of my personal stories.

[00:21:23] And you outlined that really well.

[00:21:25] I like your rendering of it and your framing of it because I agree.

[00:21:29] I can resonate with that deeply.

[00:21:32] And for me personally, I think early on it started with my mother leaving when I was really young.

[00:21:40] And then just being like, okay, well, I have to, I have to accept these circumstances, these events, these changing unexpected unfoldings.

[00:21:51] And with that, I just had to move forward.

[00:21:53] So I think that was like an early seed.

[00:21:55] When I was in my, when I was 22, I took psilocybin for the first time.

[00:22:01] And I was taking it not really so recreationally, but for me, it was like there was a deep pondering, a deep urge to understand the nature of reality.

[00:22:13] Since I was a kid, I've always wondered why are we here?

[00:22:16] What is this?

[00:22:17] What is this term God?

[00:22:18] What is the definition of God?

[00:22:21] How far out of space go?

[00:22:23] You know, these questions have always weighed heavy on my heart and my mind since I was a kid.

[00:22:27] And I didn't have the, you know, the verbiage to dance around like I do now.

[00:22:33] Though I probably had more wisdom then.

[00:22:36] But when I was in my 20s and I took psilocybin for the first time, it was a light dose.

[00:22:42] And that really brought me into more of a visceral experience of great spirit, for lack of a better term.

[00:22:51] But the unity, the unity consciousness.

[00:22:53] And a few trips after that, I had, I had witnessed some pretty crazy stuff go down.

[00:23:04] And I was out of the lake.

[00:23:06] It was about January.

[00:23:07] It was cold as hell.

[00:23:10] And I was with a couple friends.

[00:23:12] They were sitting around a campfire.

[00:23:14] I'd taken my psilocybin and it started working its way in.

[00:23:18] And I was feeling a little woozy, feeling pretty light.

[00:23:20] And I started walking out on my own because I felt pretty good about it.

[00:23:24] I was like, I'm going to go walk out in the dark and just see what happens.

[00:23:27] And as I'm doing this, suddenly the experience shifted.

[00:23:33] It went to a complete polar shift, 180 degrees.

[00:23:36] And I felt this really deep level of just like anxiety, weight.

[00:23:41] I would even say like death or demonic force within my chest, within my throat.

[00:23:49] Though it wasn't tied to any particular idea.

[00:23:52] It was just a sensation.

[00:23:53] It was a deep sensation of just being screwed, man.

[00:23:57] And I remember feeling it and I was like, whoa, what's going on?

[00:24:03] And so I began to revert to the breath because at this point I had some meditation practice.

[00:24:08] I had some awareness of the breath and the power that it held.

[00:24:12] And so I began to breathe and I began to meditate internally and just inquire about like what is this death or darkness or pit or anxiousness or inner turmoil?

[00:24:25] What is this?

[00:24:26] I just want to know what it is.

[00:24:27] I'm not trying to fight it.

[00:24:29] Like I'm not trying to resist.

[00:24:30] I'll accept it.

[00:24:30] I just want to know what it is.

[00:24:32] And in that moment of surrendering and just noticing and witnessing, it shifted 180 degrees then some to where it became, for me, it became a light and a sensation of what I would equate to like absolute love.

[00:24:51] But that light was brighter than a thousand suns.

[00:24:54] And it completely was, it just shattered all of that tension.

[00:25:00] And it was seeming to me that that light and that purity of love was the essence of me and maybe life itself.

[00:25:10] And that it was trying to push its way through and I was damning it in a way.

[00:25:16] Yeah.

[00:25:17] And I think that that's shown me a lot that eventually led me to that, you know, that quote that I came up with, which is I'm not saying anything new.

[00:25:27] I'm saying what all the mystics and sages and, you know, seers have said for forever.

[00:25:32] These are timeless truths, but it's very influenced by Taoism as I'm a student of Kung Fu.

[00:25:38] And so, you know, to me, it came through the audio mixing, but obviously also on like the more spiritual and self inquiry level to where it's like, like my brain moves.

[00:25:51] I'm a creative.

[00:25:52] I'm an artist.

[00:25:52] And so my brain goes in a thousand directions.

[00:25:54] You can ask my wife, she'll tell you all day.

[00:25:56] And it can be really cumbersome and I can trip on myself.

[00:26:01] I could trip over my own mind and my own thought symbols, so to speak.

[00:26:04] So what I found is that enabling a state where there's non-judgment, you're just observing and you're just witnessing really.

[00:26:16] You're able to allow all of those thought forms, all of those emotional sets, all of those vibratory animated aspects of our internal universe to just chill and just be.

[00:26:31] They don't have to be supercharged into this direction or that direction.

[00:26:34] They simply just are.

[00:26:36] And now they're not, they're not concretizing us.

[00:26:40] But now we have the ability to, as you said, see them in a new light and realize that infinite potential is at our disposal at any moment, physically and emotionally and spiritually, intellectually.

[00:26:51] And so that's it, right?

[00:26:53] By embracing simplicity within, then we're able to bypass and even move beyond the hardships within and without.

[00:27:06] And that's how I'd size up that little quote.

[00:27:09] Oh, I mean, it's so interesting because the way that you talk about it, like probably 90% of people will never, ever feel what for you is, you know, this is part of your purpose, right?

[00:27:25] The fact that you already had a starting point as a child.

[00:27:29] And I mean, so many things came up for me when you were speaking.

[00:27:33] One of them being that experience where you first felt that kind of dread or whatever it was, was like contrast, right?

[00:27:43] So like in order for us to, it's almost like we can't experience one thing without sort of having another experience that we can compare it to, right?

[00:27:57] Like it reminded me of an embodied dream that I had, which was after I got divorced, I did some online dating and I had gotten so well, the other thing also is that once you do some personal work and you're creative, so you're already like you're already connected to the archetypal realm.

[00:28:20] You're creative, like most people kind of accidentally are, but you are more consciously, which is why you can be overwhelmed.

[00:28:26] If we think about even for, if we even think about the fact that we have 60,000 thoughts a day, how many are we aware of?

[00:28:36] 200, right?

[00:28:39] And emotions, I don't know, I think they say you have like 200 emotional experience a day.

[00:28:43] So like most of us, we're an iceberg.

[00:28:46] Most of us is unconscious.

[00:28:48] And then sometimes we can't differentiate between what is our personal unconscious and what's the collective.

[00:28:54] Like we exist within all these different collectives, including the whole cosmos, right?

[00:28:58] They say that we've got the stardust is in our DNA.

[00:29:01] So that would make it real.

[00:29:02] So if you're already open as a creative, then you are like, whoosh, like you are really being tossed around by the archetypal realm.

[00:29:13] And that can be really overwhelming, especially if you don't have a framework for it.

[00:29:17] The other thing that you reminded me of is that the root of knowing is relating.

[00:29:25] And so a lot of people know a concept, but they don't know the concept, right?

[00:29:33] Because if you don't feel it in the body, you don't have full knowing of the concept, right?

[00:29:41] Makes sense.

[00:29:41] There's a big difference between a thought and thinking.

[00:29:44] Yeah, right.

[00:29:46] Yeah.

[00:29:46] And emotion, right?

[00:29:49] So, I mean, you just touched on.

[00:29:52] So in my embodied dream, though, I experienced something that I'd never experienced about.

[00:29:58] Until you experience something that you didn't even know was possible to experience, like it just then really shifts your perspective, right?

[00:30:05] Like I'm 50 and I never, ever like truly felt safe in my life.

[00:30:10] Well, I didn't even know I didn't really feel safe and loved in my life.

[00:30:14] I thought I was, right?

[00:30:16] Like I knew my mind, my parents loved me.

[00:30:20] But so my embodied dream was after I had gotten swept up in this ironic relationship was that in my dream, I was in a bathroom in a state park.

[00:30:32] We were going hiking the next day, actually.

[00:30:34] So my psyche called on that image.

[00:30:36] And, you know, bathroom in a state park is concrete, right?

[00:30:40] And I had gone to the bathroom already because I already had that series of dreams of toilets and go to the bathroom.

[00:30:45] So I was done.

[00:30:46] But it was dark and I couldn't see.

[00:30:50] And not until later on did I realize that I had to feel my way out.

[00:30:55] And then in the doorway, I started falling backwards and it was pitch dark and I'm falling backwards and I, and it's kind of in slow motion.

[00:31:05] And then I stopped and then I start falling again.

[00:31:08] And I'm like, wow, I can feel the warm breeze like cradling me and I can fresh smell the freshly fallen leaves from the trees.

[00:31:17] And, and I'm like, this is so weird.

[00:31:20] I feel so safe falling backwards downhill.

[00:31:24] And in the morning, I still had that feeling of safety.

[00:31:28] And I just laid there and I was like, I've never felt this in my life.

[00:31:32] How is that possible that I feel, have this sense of safety?

[00:31:36] And I could re-experience it and slip back into it for about three months and then it left me.

[00:31:41] But when I drew it, drew me falling down a hill, I added a pair of hands beneath me.

[00:31:48] So it was like this, my first feeling that I wasn't alone.

[00:31:53] And that there was this like presence that I didn't, I didn't know.

[00:31:58] But so, yeah.

[00:32:00] So I had that without drugs.

[00:32:01] It was just a dream, but it was pretty mind blowing.

[00:32:06] So yeah, yeah.

[00:32:08] There's overlap, you know, and there's some, there's some, there's some consistency between the, what one might call the dream realm, the astrome and, and, you know, psychedelia.

[00:32:18] There's, there's definitely relatable.

[00:32:21] Yeah.

[00:32:22] I mean, the key is that your mind is, you know, taking a hike for a while.

[00:32:27] I mean, that's really what it is.

[00:32:29] Well, unfurling.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:31] It's not, it's not, it's not so tight.

[00:32:34] You know, it's, it's able to represent itself in a relationship.

[00:32:40] And the other.

[00:32:40] Outside of just.

[00:32:41] Yeah.

[00:32:41] The other thing I was going to say is the emotions that you were feeling.

[00:32:44] So from a depth psychology perspective, emotions are aware or unconscious is talking to us.

[00:32:50] And that what we think feelings are thoughts.

[00:32:54] Like it took me until seeing pictures was a Pixar movie inside out for me to understand the difference between emotions and feelings.

[00:33:02] Because as a child, I wasn't allowed to have negative emotions.

[00:33:05] Like I literally didn't understand the difference between emotions and feelings and emotions are of the body.

[00:33:10] You don't control emotions, but you can control your thoughts.

[00:33:14] You don't control your thoughts about them.

[00:33:16] So it is the thoughts that cause the suffering, right?

[00:33:21] And it's the thoughts that are limiting.

[00:33:23] The emotion is trying to communicate something to you.

[00:33:28] And so I like your, what you did is you had, you had a dialogue.

[00:33:33] That's what you did.

[00:33:34] Like you had a dialogue during this experience with these forces that were inside of you.

[00:33:39] You know, it's really interesting you bring this up because I can appreciate and respect everything

[00:33:44] that you just said.

[00:33:45] And I've held that sentiment for a long time.

[00:33:47] But this last two months, I've been diving into Young's work more.

[00:33:53] And I've been reflecting on my own particular experiences and the interfacing of emotions and thoughts.

[00:34:00] And realizing that like you, you know, there's never a thought that's not connected to an emotion.

[00:34:07] And there's never an emotion that's not connected to a thought form, right?

[00:34:10] And so in that, I realized that what you said is very true, that thoughts can be compulsive and emotions can be compulsive.

[00:34:21] But one thing that I actually focus heavily on in my own personal practice, but also with clients is that you can channel emotions,

[00:34:29] that they speak to you and they'll guide you.

[00:34:32] But at the same time, you can use them and invoke them at will through practice.

[00:34:37] And they can be used to shift the nature of the subconscious and build new identity protocols.

[00:34:44] Yes, because we attract what we are.

[00:34:47] So how can we shift like, especially since 90% of us is unconscious.

[00:34:53] So how do you, this is what I, this is so hard, you know, my clients, I'm like, you know, it's like building a new, it's a skill and it's a practice.

[00:35:01] Like, unless you have an Eckhart Tolle situation where he has a dramatic, like wants to kill himself.

[00:35:07] And then he's like, who is this person in me that can't stand, can't stand me anymore.

[00:35:12] And then he goes off on his journey.

[00:35:14] For most people, it's like, oh, this is just the beginning of your lifelong practice.

[00:35:18] So coming into deeper relationship with and in dialoguing with all these ways your unconscious is like trying to seduce you to have a chat with it, a dialogue with it.

[00:35:29] And it is very tricky because while your body, your body always knows the truth of the situation.

[00:35:35] But sometimes the truth of the situation is the limiting situation.

[00:35:40] And then in that case, the mind can be helpful and say, I know you feel like you standing up for yourself is morally wrong.

[00:35:50] But my mind says, well, that's not going to hurt anybody.

[00:35:53] Right.

[00:35:54] And then other times, other times you have to say, no mind, take a hike.

[00:35:58] I have to do what my body says.

[00:36:00] But knowing like which one is right, it can be tricky.

[00:36:05] It can be super tricky.

[00:36:06] And I mean, you'd almost inevitably have to, I mean, as a hermeticist myself, I'd have to accept that all of it was necessary.

[00:36:15] That like pissing myself off, pissing people off, feeling offended, realizing there was no reason to ever be that way.

[00:36:20] Like all of that is a necessary part of everyone's individual process.

[00:36:24] It's like your way of moving the Overton window.

[00:36:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:36:28] That's how I look at it.

[00:36:29] Like the first time I disrupted my former husband's, like we had this passive aggressive dynamic in one kind of conversation.

[00:36:35] And the first time I was like, oh, there it is.

[00:36:38] There it is.

[00:36:38] I don't even know what to do.

[00:36:39] So I'm going to do the opposite of what I usually do.

[00:36:41] I'm just going to walk away.

[00:36:43] And I felt so, I felt like a bitch.

[00:36:46] And I told my friends this and they're like, what are you talking about?

[00:36:49] Right.

[00:36:50] So that's where my mind would yell at me for like just standing up and saying, I'm not going to engage.

[00:36:55] I'm not going to defend myself like I usually do.

[00:36:57] I'm just going to walk away.

[00:36:59] And that felt so wrong, but it was right.

[00:37:01] But I tell my clients the key to knowing that it was the right thing is that when you're disrupting a pattern, you'll feel two emotions.

[00:37:09] You'll feel liberation.

[00:37:12] And then it'll be followed up by the guilt or the anxiety that's pulling you back to the old behavior.

[00:37:17] But the liberation is the clue that, oh, I need to do more of that.

[00:37:22] Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:23] And there's a time and place, you know, there's a time and place.

[00:37:26] And ultimately, I mean, a lot of the yogis, they would aim in at it in the sense that all of the shifts, the emotions, even Eckhart Tolle, as you've mentioned, the shifts of the emotions, the thoughts, all of these are merely things we're observing.

[00:37:45] And they're not actually the true self and the true self, which I would say is like the Christ is just the observer.

[00:37:51] It's the universal witness.

[00:37:52] I would even say it's the nature of the yin.

[00:37:55] And the yang is the is the animated aspect, the dance, the movement.

[00:38:00] I love all those different metaphors.

[00:38:02] So I have a question about I mean, you touched on this, but this idea of deep acceptance.

[00:38:08] So, you know, Eckhart Tolle, love him when you will say when you're in a not ideal situation that you have these three choices and you can try all three of them.

[00:38:18] It's not like you only get one, but you only literally have three options.

[00:38:22] You can leave the situation.

[00:38:24] You can change the situation or you can accept the situation.

[00:38:28] And I think this idea, you know, everything gets so like, what is the process of something becoming generic?

[00:38:36] Like once a profound like thing gets out in the marketplace and then it just gets watered down and watered down.

[00:38:42] But this idea of like, you know, radical or deep acceptance isn't an acceptance of the permanence of the situation.

[00:38:50] It's like the acceptance of the truth of the situation.

[00:38:54] So maybe you can talk a little bit about what that means to you.

[00:38:57] I love that. That's a really powerful question. Holy crap.

[00:39:01] Yeah. So so, yeah.

[00:39:03] And I've been I've been I've been I've been dancing with this question myself lately, actually, because there's there is there's levels to it.

[00:39:11] This is a layer cake of the nature of being a human and a spirit and a soul all at once.

[00:39:15] And so. So, yeah, there's a there's a level of.

[00:39:21] Acceptance that, you know, I would say transcends.

[00:39:26] The personalization of things versus there's a level of acceptance within the personalization of things where, you know, you might be accepting things that don't need to be necessarily accepted in the personalized set.

[00:39:39] So abuse is one of those, you know, unrighteous actions or being mistreated mentally, physically, et cetera.

[00:39:49] And it.

[00:39:51] Well, well, actually, the truth of that situation is that you don't have to be there.

[00:39:58] Right.

[00:39:59] Right. Like so that and that's in that sense, like the truth of the situation is that you're not supposed to accept that.

[00:40:10] You know what I'm saying?

[00:40:12] So because people.

[00:40:13] Yeah, because people can really just misunderstand this idea of it.

[00:40:16] Right. Right.

[00:40:17] Well, and ultimately the the larger sense of self self, like the big self, capital S, the spirit would be able to accept that.

[00:40:26] Yeah. Hey, I can transcend these situations not by having to submit to them physically, but as you said, I can move myself physically away from these sorts of situations and that that's not me.

[00:40:40] That's not me lacking in growth.

[00:40:42] That's me being able, as you said, to liberate, liberate the self, which ultimately can lead to the to the greater level of submission, which would be, hey, the unknown.

[00:40:51] Yeah. And the undefined, which is hard. It's scary. It's not easy, but but it is ultimately for our growth and for us to be able to integrate into a new set.

[00:41:02] And that's that's an inevitable. You know, suffering is inevitable.

[00:41:05] Hard is inevitable, but it doesn't have to be, you know, baited into one relationship or any form of self abuse or accepting abuse from another.

[00:41:15] That pain and the hardship and the suffering is inevitable in life, but it does.

[00:41:18] But you get to choose what form that you are going to ultimately accept that in moving throughout your life.

[00:41:25] And so it should hopefully be something that's enabling growth and prosperity and benefiting new perspective and not limiting us or, you know, ultimately leading to our demise within our relationships,

[00:41:38] within our social connections and within our connection to our own self and like, you know, what's actually allowing us to breathe.

[00:41:45] Yeah, I've been thinking about suffering in a different way because I don't know, I think it's more like suffering.

[00:41:53] There's like the right suffering and the wrong suffering, right?

[00:41:56] Like suffering through the discomfort of the process is the good kind of suffering.

[00:42:06] Right. So you're in a situation that's causing suffering, but typically.

[00:42:15] Right. So, you know, the spiritual people say that suffering, not pain, not physical pain, suffering is caused by the thoughts.

[00:42:24] About the situation.

[00:42:27] Right.

[00:42:29] Yes, sometimes.

[00:42:29] Yeah. So, well, well, you know, I never experienced anxiety until I was 50 and I left home.

[00:42:36] I was.

[00:42:37] Oh, that's fascinating.

[00:42:38] And never, never.

[00:42:39] I was like, I was one of those people like, well, do this, do this, do this, do this.

[00:42:43] Right now.

[00:42:44] I'm like, oh, my God, you don't choose to be anxious.

[00:42:47] You literally don't.

[00:42:48] It's not something you can control.

[00:42:50] It's a process that you have to work through.

[00:42:52] So what bright and anxiety is about the sphere of uncertainty, but I knew enough to know that, oh, that means I have to develop a capacity to weather the discomfort of uncertainty.

[00:43:09] Right.

[00:43:10] So it was my thoughts that caused more suffering because I was resisting the uncertainty.

[00:43:18] And so once I was like, oh, I just have to get better at not knowing how my life is going to go.

[00:43:24] Okay.

[00:43:26] Let's try to.

[00:43:27] Yeah.

[00:43:27] Or even like the organization of the thoughts.

[00:43:29] Right.

[00:43:29] I think that's sometimes what happens too, is like, what charge are we associating?

[00:43:34] Like, what emotional set are we associating with the said thought?

[00:43:38] Oh, yeah.

[00:43:39] Because like, because the thoughts, because the thoughts aren't, they're not really, they're not doing anything.

[00:43:43] And they're not you.

[00:43:44] They're like, not real.

[00:43:45] Yeah, they're not us.

[00:43:46] Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:46] Yeah.

[00:43:47] So it's like, as you said, relationship, the knowledge and the set of awareness comes with our relationship to our thoughts and like our organization of thoughts, organization of emotions.

[00:43:57] And oftentimes it's super unconscious.

[00:43:59] In everyone's case, there's some level of it that's unconscious.

[00:44:03] Most of it.

[00:44:03] Yeah.

[00:44:04] Yeah, most of it.

[00:44:05] Yeah.

[00:44:05] By design.

[00:44:07] Yeah.

[00:44:07] So yeah.

[00:44:08] So it's interesting.

[00:44:10] Yeah.

[00:44:11] Again, it comes back to the personalizing of things versus the depersonalizing of things.

[00:44:45] And you can't.

[00:44:46] It's not going to help me grow.

[00:44:48] It's not going to help me learn.

[00:44:49] And so I've over the years, I've had to juggle this and come to terms with it on my own accord, too.

[00:44:55] Because, you know, naturally, as a spiritual mind and a spiritual heart, it would be very easy to just be like, well, I can just jump away from all situations.

[00:45:02] You know, but it's like, well, there is some lesson there.

[00:45:05] So I have to like learn and get into them.

[00:45:07] I mean, the issue is that we can get confused that the emotions and thoughts are us.

[00:45:12] And then we're overwhelmed by them.

[00:45:13] And we can't think straight then.

[00:45:16] And so this is where active imagination, if you want to learn more about Jung, he wrote a book about active imagination, where you can allow those thoughts and emotions.

[00:45:25] You can get distance from them by moving them out of the body once they will.

[00:45:29] Well, this leads into chakras, actually.

[00:45:31] So if you can find an area of the body that's like, yeah, here I am.

[00:45:36] And you allow an image to come up.

[00:45:38] And then you can ask the image.

[00:45:40] You said relate.

[00:45:41] Relate to thoughts and emotions means we have a relationship with them.

[00:45:48] And so if we can move them out and go, oh, like for one of my clients, anxiety took the form of Groot from Guardians of the Galaxy.

[00:45:57] Oh, wow.

[00:45:57] I was like, oh, that's so interesting because that's kind of animating.

[00:46:01] That makes me think about childhood.

[00:46:02] And soon he was watching himself as a child kick his feet on the bench.

[00:46:06] And it was all about like sort of reconnecting to that part of him.

[00:46:09] So it's really like the goal is like, can I just get some distance from you?

[00:46:14] Like your spouse, like, can I just walk away for a minute and think about this?

[00:46:18] And then we'll come back and have a chat.

[00:46:19] You can do that with your emotions and thoughts.

[00:46:21] You can be like, oh, you're, oh, let me take a look at you.

[00:46:25] Oh, what do you want from me?

[00:46:27] Like literally, what do you want from me?

[00:46:30] Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:31] They're all trying to give us.

[00:46:33] Yeah, they're trying to give us some direction.

[00:46:35] They're testing us, I would say.

[00:46:37] And ultimately, can we build enough healthy proximity?

[00:46:44] Yeah.

[00:46:44] Like we don't want to abandon and deny.

[00:46:46] No, because it's you.

[00:46:47] But we also don't want to be trapped up in them.

[00:46:48] Those are parts of you.

[00:46:50] So, all right.

[00:46:51] Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:52] Let's talk about chakras.

[00:46:53] That's what you wanted to talk about.

[00:46:54] So you just do you with chakras.

[00:46:57] Where do you want to go with that?

[00:46:59] Sure.

[00:47:00] So, I mean, I think like you said, it ties right into it.

[00:47:03] I like to look at chakras in like the most practical sense.

[00:47:07] I'd say with everything I do with clients and anything I do on my own journey is like,

[00:47:11] how can I make spirituality practical and applicable to the daily experience?

[00:47:15] Maybe you can share like a client experience,

[00:47:18] like how you worked with someone and brought in chakras.

[00:47:22] Yeah, for sure.

[00:47:23] Yeah.

[00:47:23] So recently what I've been doing is I've been building a template around the chakras

[00:47:27] and associating with aphorisms.

[00:47:29] So for anybody unfamiliar, like I am, I feel, I will, I love, I speak, I see, I know, I comprehend.

[00:47:37] Those are aligning thoughts, but those also can be sensational experiences within emotional sets.

[00:47:45] That help us kind of outline and build maybe an English way of speaking about

[00:47:50] the experience of how the chakras interface with us in our given day.

[00:47:55] So just to keep one really simple, I primarily work through the nature of the heart

[00:48:00] when I'm working with clients on the personal side.

[00:48:04] And with the heart, you know, it's correlated with love.

[00:48:07] But specifically it's within a means of noticing the coherence of the self and other selves in life.

[00:48:19] Empathy.

[00:48:20] The ability to realize that like we're not just animating on a track and it's not just us in the show.

[00:48:28] And we're also not at the, you know, the mercy of everything,

[00:48:34] but to realize that we have the ability to fortify our individuation process.

[00:48:39] And our heart, one way that I've been working with one client most recently is

[00:48:45] we'd sit in and realize that the heart oftentimes feels subjected.

[00:48:51] I think a lot of people feel subjected to the situations of their relationship, their family dynamics, their work life.

[00:49:00] And so it can feel like the heart is just this vulnerable sensor.

[00:49:07] And it's just taking in all of this and it's at the mercy of everything.

[00:49:13] But one big breakthrough that I've had a few times with different clients actually is sitting in and talking about that very specifically

[00:49:19] and opening up the lens of, hey, the way that you feel and sense can make you vulnerable, yes.

[00:49:30] But it can also be the means by which you move from.

[00:49:35] And so if that's noticed, to channel into the heart is to say, I can allow myself to feel loved.

[00:49:43] You know, I can care for other people.

[00:49:46] And now that level of vulnerability transforms and alchemizes into something that can allow us to be a space to move from and not be a victim within.

[00:49:56] And so, yeah, so the heart chakra is like one of my favorite topics to orbit.

[00:50:00] It'll make me cry if you sit here and talk with me about it long enough.

[00:50:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:50:04] Because I feel that that's actually, like you said it really well earlier, the body is giving you signals and is giving you coordinates.

[00:50:14] And when you're sitting in situations, you know, like the mind can superimpose itself.

[00:50:19] Your ideas and thoughts can superimpose themselves on the heart.

[00:50:22] But when you can get clear, when you can distinguish and allow the waters to settle within, so to speak, through, you know, breathing, meditation, and just simple walking outside and allow yourself to just find that stillness.

[00:50:36] From that place, the heart especially is like your personalized divine GPS.

[00:50:43] And it can give you huge impulses towards, hey, this thing is for me or not for me.

[00:50:51] And then furthermore, I truly believe that that is the pinnacle of what people are calling like manifestation abilities.

[00:50:59] It's not that thoughts create reality.

[00:51:00] Thoughts, when coordinated well with emotional sets, create reality.

[00:51:07] And, yeah, yeah.

[00:51:10] Well, yeah.

[00:51:11] We attract what we are.

[00:51:14] That's why thoughts aren't enough, actually.

[00:51:16] Because most of our thoughts were not even known to us anyway.

[00:51:19] You said something really powerful about I can feel loved.

[00:51:23] And I just gained this perspective recently working with my clients because, one, every active imagination session, we use it in the beginning of our sessions to sort of set.

[00:51:35] We always end up circling back to whatever image comes up.

[00:51:38] So we start with breath.

[00:51:39] We start with the body.

[00:51:40] And so whatever it is, I'll just, well, I don't use Google anymore.

[00:51:45] I use it, Kosha.

[00:51:46] But I'll just search for, hmm, what's the spiritual meaning of the upper back pain on the right side?

[00:51:54] And it's so fascinating.

[00:51:55] Yeah.

[00:51:56] And it aligns nicely with chakras.

[00:51:58] So if, like, you can use both of them together.

[00:52:00] But something I learned is that we, well, me anyway, when I think about heart chakra, I'm always thinking about the front of the body.

[00:52:10] And so when I was looking up, like, what is the meaning of the upper back pain?

[00:52:16] That's the heart chakra too, right?

[00:52:18] The back of the body.

[00:52:20] And the front of the body is like we give.

[00:52:22] We go out into the world.

[00:52:25] But who has our back, right?

[00:52:28] Do we feel supported?

[00:52:30] And if we don't feel supported, and that made a lot of sense for my clients who are, like, suffering, you know, this upper back pain.

[00:52:39] And that's what I mean was that, you know, there's this, you know, imbalance, I guess.

[00:52:44] I like fluidity better because we're never, like, the idea is not to be balanced all the time, but to be able to be fluid.

[00:52:50] And there's the light and dark side and all that kind of stuff.

[00:52:52] But that is fascinating to me.

[00:52:55] And I hadn't really thought about that.

[00:52:57] And it also makes me remember the one therapy session my sisters and I had with my mother.

[00:53:01] We were really mad at her because she had had a health scare.

[00:53:04] We literally watched her not breathe for, like, two minutes waiting for the paramedics.

[00:53:09] And then we were like, oh, my gosh, she's so unhealthy and she doesn't take responsibility for it.

[00:53:14] We were just angry at her.

[00:53:16] And we were sitting with this older lady therapist.

[00:53:19] And my mother starts by looking at her and saying, she doesn't think I'm a good mom.

[00:53:24] And I was like, oh, my God, here we go, right?

[00:53:27] But the therapist said something really interesting that this is coming up because of what you said.

[00:53:31] She said, you know, to my mother, Kathy, who was abused as a child, who really did have a lot of trauma that she would never be able to work through.

[00:53:38] She said, you know, sometimes when people have, you know, really hard, hard trauma, they don't receive love very well.

[00:53:49] They really they just can't.

[00:53:50] It's like they want it.

[00:53:51] They're desperate for it, but they can't receive it.

[00:53:54] It's just not a state that they're really aware of.

[00:53:58] And so that's what reminds me.

[00:54:00] I love that you're that you love the heart chakra.

[00:54:02] For me, it's the sacral chakra.

[00:54:04] I'm all about the sacral chakra.

[00:54:06] But.

[00:54:07] Oh, that's awesome.

[00:54:08] That's awesome.

[00:54:08] Yeah, I've spent.

[00:54:09] So I'd say my two favorites are the heart and the Ajna or the third eye.

[00:54:15] Uh, but but most of my work has had in this lifetime, I suppose, has been within the sacral and the root.

[00:54:24] And that's where I've had to.

[00:54:26] For you personally.

[00:54:28] For me personally.

[00:54:30] But what you're finding with your clients as much as like here is the heart.

[00:54:34] Way more heart.

[00:54:35] Yeah.

[00:54:35] Way more heart than anything.

[00:54:37] I love it.

[00:54:38] Same with me.

[00:54:39] Sacral.

[00:54:40] Is it totally sacral chakra?

[00:54:43] Yeah, yeah.

[00:54:44] Yeah, I think a lot of it got.

[00:54:46] A lot of it was more unconscious for me with the sacral, given that it's associated with like feeling, creativity, sensuality.

[00:54:54] A lot of that was broad online and I think connected for me unconsciously through the musicality, through the art and things of that sort.

[00:55:02] But it's becoming, my work isn't necessarily to amplify it necessarily as much as it is to notice it and realize that like, you know, perhaps it's overactive.

[00:55:17] And so that's a big thing I like to, I've been discussing with clients lately too, is that like, this is why I love yin and yang.

[00:55:24] Because it's, you know, you can think of it as off and on.

[00:55:28] You can think of it as masculine and feminine.

[00:55:30] You can think of it as receiving or projecting.

[00:55:33] And I think that that really works well within the sense of the chakra.

[00:55:38] Because you touched on it.

[00:55:38] Like, it's not a matter of it being here nor there.

[00:55:40] It's not like your chakra is on or off.

[00:55:42] If they were off, we'd be dead.

[00:55:44] So it's energy.

[00:55:45] It's energy center.

[00:55:46] It's spiraling energy center.

[00:55:48] And what I've noticed lately is it's really about, you know, realizing if one is super active or if one's sort of hardened or maybe, because it's not off.

[00:56:01] It's not off or on.

[00:56:02] You know, everybody, they're on.

[00:56:03] It's just a matter of is it overactive or underactive?

[00:56:05] And oftentimes, once we begin to notice if one is overactive and we can kind of balance it out, balance comes to the others because we have a particular set of our personal energy that's being distributed like water through these reservoirs, so to speak.

[00:56:22] Oh, I love that.

[00:56:24] I love all the different lens.

[00:56:25] Bring them on.

[00:56:26] They're all like overlap.

[00:56:27] And, you know, one day something speaks to somebody and then another day something else speaks to them.

[00:56:32] So tell me about your program that you developed, Flow State Mindset.

[00:56:37] And in my intro, I didn't really explain.

[00:56:41] I mean, the coaching part of it, the flow state is you could talk about that.

[00:56:46] But then you also do this other kind of coaching, which is the audio mixing and sort of the tying that to this.

[00:56:55] Well, you explain it.

[00:56:57] Yeah, yeah, totally.

[00:56:59] So just to kind of give everyone a recap to over the last few years, started working for myself.

[00:57:04] Another one of those big decision moments where I was working a really good job with the government up in the park.

[00:57:10] And at the same time, I was coming home every day and my kid was like, you know, learned whole new words and phrases.

[00:57:19] And I was just like, I don't want to repeat what I went through with my father.

[00:57:23] My father worked an amazing job.

[00:57:25] He cared for me in all ways.

[00:57:26] But there was not there was no depth.

[00:57:28] You know, there's no depth.

[00:57:29] Super common for men.

[00:57:31] Yeah.

[00:57:31] There's just not a lot of depth.

[00:57:32] It's like, I'm going to show up.

[00:57:33] I'm going to just muscle through things and I'm not going to expose emotions.

[00:57:36] I don't want to dive into them.

[00:57:37] Let me just get through things and get on with life.

[00:57:40] That wasn't the case for me ever.

[00:57:42] So I just felt disconnected.

[00:57:44] And I was like, you know, I want to be able to be at home.

[00:57:46] And at the time, I was primarily providing music production and audio mix services to people.

[00:57:52] But I was always sharing these sorts of talks and angles on things within my content on Instagram, as I still do.

[00:57:59] And in all the discussions I have with people, too, my blog, everything.

[00:58:04] And I'm even trying to remember how it first.

[00:58:07] Oh, so the reason I first started was I was kind of at a personal crisis mode where I was having a hard time sleeping, not really feeling aligned with purpose.

[00:58:16] And I was in a business shortly after that.

[00:58:17] And as it would happen, I ended up getting a personal coach of my own.

[00:58:23] And it was amazing because it was somebody who is now a really good friend and business partner.

[00:58:29] But we got to dive into the nature of Neville Goddard's work, the nature of the mind, feeling being the secret, understanding the nature of like the dreams and how that how that coordinates itself in our waking day.

[00:58:42] And just the power of awareness, truly, as Neville Goddard coined it, and the law of assumption as well.

[00:58:48] And so I begin practicing my own affirmational sets.

[00:58:51] And I was like, you know, I'm I'm a successful and well-paid music producer and personal coach had no idea where that was going to land and take me.

[00:59:00] But within a few months to follow from learning how to channel emotions and and align those in thought forms and really in a visceral way, like really holding this reality within myself.

[00:59:15] Circumstances changed.

[00:59:16] And it wasn't just the way that I was viewing it changed, which I think is the most practical.

[00:59:20] And I think that's where most people can get with the idea of the power of awareness is that like you're looking at things in a new way.

[00:59:25] But the reality outside of you is connected to you and in a real way that like what's showing up in your life is an expression of your deeper self.

[00:59:36] Yeah.

[00:59:36] All the people, all the circumstances, the environment, the trees, the wind.

[00:59:40] It's all you.

[00:59:42] Like you are the whole entire thing.

[00:59:44] Now, it's not the ego you, but it's the it's the the unconscious level of you.

[00:59:48] And so so as it would happen, a few different things shifted within the family dynamic.

[00:59:53] And suddenly I had to be at home and I had to be working that way.

[00:59:58] And I just decided, you know, OK, I'm going to own this and I'm going to I have enough experiences, enough templates, enough models, enough tools that I feel comfortable just doing life coaching.

[01:00:10] And that's what it started out as pretty innocently.

[01:00:12] So I was doing that and I was providing mixed coaching over the last few years.

[01:00:16] And in doing that, I was marketing myself that way.

[01:00:19] I was like, hey, you know, I provide mixed services and personal coaching.

[01:00:22] Well, naturally, people would assume, oh, so you teach mix.

[01:00:25] Are you teach mixing?

[01:00:26] And I'm like, well, I can.

[01:00:27] I think that's what I said to you.

[01:00:30] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[01:00:31] I'm like, sure, I can.

[01:00:33] You know, I can.

[01:00:34] No problem.

[01:00:35] And so from that, as I allowed, you know, the universe, allowed spirit to do what it wants to do, I've realized that the two work together really well and are always showing me new ways to be of service to people.

[01:00:49] So on one side, I really like to it really orbiting everything that we've discussed during this entire hour is really what my practice aligns around.

[01:00:59] So on the one side, I provide mixing services to people.

[01:01:02] I help them improve their music production and pull out the strings in their tracks.

[01:01:07] They can hire me for that.

[01:01:08] But then what I like to do is I like to show people how to fish for themselves.

[01:01:12] So for those who are willing and ready, I can show them how to do that process.

[01:01:17] And I use the yin, yang, and Taoist principles to approach the process of audio mixing to where the music is really leading us.

[01:01:27] And we're not trying to force the mix, but we're allowing it to tell us where it wants to be.

[01:01:31] And we learn a little give and take at every level of the mix process.

[01:01:35] So I say it as yin and yang principles being baked into the audio mixing process.

[01:01:40] And then on the other side, when I'm working with people through flow state mindset versus flow state mixing,

[01:01:47] it's, I mean, it goes in a lot of different directions, as I'm sure you can attest.

[01:01:51] Sitting in a session, I can never predetermine anything.

[01:01:55] None of us can.

[01:01:56] And so I really like to just allow all of the facets of my experience to sort of come onto the table.

[01:02:04] And then when and if, you know, astrology needs to come into play.

[01:02:08] If Taoism and yin and yang want to come into play.

[01:02:11] If Christianity wants to come into play.

[01:02:13] If the Kung Fu, if mythology, Carl Jung's work, whatever wants to come into the session, I allow at this point.

[01:02:23] But in the most prime sense, the way I could define it is that I hold space for people and allow them to,

[01:02:32] I ask questions to allow them to become their own reflective guide.

[01:02:35] That's my, that's my biggest goal.

[01:02:37] And I try to limit it and try to not limit it.

[01:02:39] And it just allow the, in that sense, the flow state to emerge through the relationship between myself and the client.

[01:02:45] I feel like flow state is, it's like being receptive.

[01:02:52] Absolutely.

[01:02:53] You know, instead of, and with musicians, that's really, that's really critical.

[01:02:58] Many of them, I think many musicians realize that they don't do what they do alone, that they're part of co-creating.

[01:03:06] They're partnering with creative intelligence.

[01:03:09] And that's really sort of the goal for all of us is we're not alone.

[01:03:14] And, but how do you, how do you, you know, surrender that control and allow, and that's the feminine is allowing, which is not passive.

[01:03:25] It's the opposite of passive, like the feminine, feminine is totally.

[01:03:29] So it's black.

[01:03:31] I love that.

[01:03:33] I love your vibe.

[01:03:34] And the other thing I was going to say is like the inner and the outer.

[01:03:38] I mean, we can even, we can even use for people who are like neuroscience.

[01:03:42] I need neuroscience.

[01:03:44] Like our brain filters all the data that comes in.

[01:03:50] Like we have no idea.

[01:03:52] I don't know if it's a trillion bits of data or whatever it is.

[01:03:55] So like there's an art, uh, what do they call it?

[01:03:57] Reticular activating system that filters it based on these mostly unconscious beliefs, these patterns that we have that are so entrenched and they are rooted in our childhood experiences of either avoiding something or going after something.

[01:04:14] And, um, you know, so in order to change what you see and what you notice, you have to, you have to change, you have to change that up.

[01:04:25] So when you said, I want to know, I want to do this.

[01:04:30] And you started visualizing mine was before I knew what I was going to be doing.

[01:04:35] Mine was, you know, I just want to earn a living, having meaningful conversations.

[01:04:39] I just, that was my vision.

[01:04:41] I want to live in a beach town.

[01:04:42] Just want, I want to earn, I don't, what can I do with depth psychology?

[01:04:45] I'm, I don't have a clinical background.

[01:04:47] I can't be a therapist.

[01:04:48] Like nobody's hiring depth psychologists really literally.

[01:04:52] So I'm like, you know, I just love having meaningful conversations and now I don't have to force them.

[01:04:57] Now I don't have to force them on people when I'm out who like really don't care what I have to say.

[01:05:02] Um, now, now they pay, now they actually pay me or, you know, I don't, I don't get paid doing this, but I get to have like really exciting conversations with people and it makes me happy.

[01:05:14] And it makes absolutely.

[01:05:15] Yeah.

[01:05:15] I could relate so heavily.

[01:05:16] I mean, that was a big thing for me.

[01:05:18] It was like, how can I just take whatever I'm good at and find a way to monetize it, you know?

[01:05:23] Um, and not for the sake of the money, but just to allow that to be a beautiful by-product to support me and my family.

[01:05:28] So I can just be aligned in doing what I love and just connecting with people and creating.

[01:05:32] It's so cool, isn't it?

[01:05:34] Very cool.

[01:05:35] Yeah.

[01:05:35] Super cool.

[01:05:36] It's cool.

[01:05:37] Yeah.

[01:05:37] So, okay.

[01:05:38] So, um, why don't you talk about how people, I'll put the links in my box, but how people can find

[01:05:46] you, what you want from them?

[01:05:49] Do you want them to follow you?

[01:05:50] And do you have a newsletter and like all that stuff?

[01:05:52] And then you also have a free resource and, you know, people can like chat with you for free and check out your, whether you can help them.

[01:06:00] So tell people about all that.

[01:06:04] Yeah, totally.

[01:06:05] So, uh, first and foremost, if you want to connect with me, you can either go to my website, which is aquavision.com.

[01:06:11] Um, and she'll put the link in the bio.

[01:06:13] So I appreciate that.

[01:06:14] You should also spell it.

[01:06:15] Yeah.

[01:06:16] Yeah.

[01:06:16] I'll spell it out.

[01:06:16] It's a A W K W A vision, just like it sounds vision.com.

[01:06:22] And then a same, same handle on Instagram.

[01:06:24] That's where I'm primarily active.

[01:06:26] So it's at, uh, A W K W A vision on Instagram.

[01:06:30] And, uh, you'll find all my free resources available on my website.

[01:06:34] So you can grab, um, a guide, which is five steps to mindful mixing.

[01:06:38] If you're in the audio and music realm.

[01:06:40] Uh, but if you're more into the spirituality, personal development side of things, then you can find my awakening flow state guide and a free workshop, which is like a six minute, uh, guided meditation.

[01:06:51] But I also integrate, um, some, some lessons around, you know, what flow state is, why it matters.

[01:06:58] Um, and there's some stats and stuff to support it.

[01:07:01] Scientific research that's baked in there.

[01:07:02] And then it's just like a really simple, um, three minute meditation practice that people can, you know, integrate in any, in all situations.

[01:07:10] And that's, that's my angle from it.

[01:07:12] Okay.

[01:07:12] Pulling from climbing, um, Kung Fu, uh, navigating, uh, both my parents unexpectedly passing as well as a really close friend.

[01:07:20] And, and, um, basically, uh, and that's my two and a half year old, if you get in the background, uh, and, uh, and being a father, uh, delivering my kid, you know, um, and just getting through the thick of life as we all do.

[01:07:31] Yeah.

[01:07:32] I find that in the simplest way, uh, paying attention, relaxing the body and tuning into the breath are our instant rewards and gifts as humans and souls.

[01:07:43] It's so powerful.

[01:07:44] Um, but isn't it amazing how hard it is for people to do?

[01:07:48] So they really do need coaches.

[01:07:49] Yeah.

[01:07:50] Yeah.

[01:07:50] Yeah.

[01:07:50] It just, the reminders, you know, guidance, reminders, buffers, uh, reflectors.

[01:07:55] Today, today I was saying to my client, I'm like, okay, honey, set an alarm, set four alarms for today.

[01:08:02] And when the alarm goes off, breathe in, exhale out twice as long and do that three times.

[01:08:10] If you really just do that four times during the day, you're going to be like, I feel so much better just doing that.

[01:08:16] Yeah, totally.

[01:08:17] Totally.

[01:08:17] But you know, it's hard.

[01:08:19] People need help in this chaotic world.

[01:08:21] So I love your vibe.

[01:08:23] And what I like about your approach is like, people don't have to, they don't have to become the experts and you can like pull on whatever is right.

[01:08:32] That's what I do to pull on whatever is resonating.

[01:08:35] Like you, you don't have to believe in anything when you're doing active imagination.

[01:08:39] It's just active imagination.

[01:08:40] It's like your unconscious brings up these images.

[01:08:43] So, you know, you don't have to believe in past lives to benefit by doing a past life regression.

[01:08:47] It's just your imagination speaking to you, helping your unconscious speak to you.

[01:08:50] So you don't have to believe in a past life.

[01:08:52] You have to believe in astrology to benefit by it.

[01:08:55] You have to believe in anything to like benefit.

[01:08:57] Just like what did they used to say?

[01:08:59] The spiritual teachers would say, we don't have to understand how electricity works, but we benefit by it.

[01:09:06] Absolutely.

[01:09:06] Yeah.

[01:09:06] As Alan Watts would always say, he was a huge influencer to me is, is you don't have to believe in the thing that I'm telling you.

[01:09:13] Just entertain it, you know, just entertain it and see, see where it goes.

[01:09:17] See if it helps you connect some dots.

[01:09:18] And if it does, then it's, that's ultra pragmatic.

[01:09:21] And that's my entire angle is like, can we make spirituality?

[01:09:24] Spirituality to me is, is, is all things.

[01:09:28] And, and it's all people, it's all souls.

[01:09:30] And spirituality is very simple, but the world that we live in is very complex.

[01:09:35] And so if we can pull back those layers, we realize that most everything, in fact, everything that we need is already present.

[01:09:44] And at its best, a, a coach, a mentor, a guide acts, I think in their best right to hold space, to serve as a symbol that represents the client's change.

[01:09:55] And, and then most importantly, accountability so that it's, it's a frequency.

[01:09:59] It's a sound frequency coherence that begins to build.

[01:10:03] And yeah, cause anybody could go grab my guide and run with it, you know?

[01:10:06] You're bringing the, you're bringing the audio in and you're also like circling back to how we started, which is simplicity.

[01:10:12] Yeah, it's simple.

[01:10:14] It really is simple.

[01:10:15] The spirituality is visceral.

[01:10:17] It's, it's not up in the clouds.

[01:10:18] It's not nimbus.

[01:10:19] It's not in a different quadrant of the, of the cosmos.

[01:10:22] It's the nature and bedrock of being and everybody's being.

[01:10:28] I love it.

[01:10:29] What a, what a great way to end.

[01:10:31] Thank you so much, Kevin, for a conversation full of depth and healing.

[01:10:36] And thanks for being on dose of depth.

[01:10:38] Yeah.

[01:10:39] Thank you so much.

[01:10:39] And I appreciate all your listeners.

[01:10:41] I appreciate your time.

[01:10:42] Will you come back?

[01:10:42] Can we, will you come back?

[01:10:43] Can we talk about men?

[01:10:44] You're a millennial, aren't you?

[01:10:46] I'm a millennial.

[01:10:47] I was born in 1990 and we can totally talk about men.

[01:10:49] I want to talk.

[01:10:50] I love men.

[01:10:52] So I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kevin Utley, holistic engineer and mindset coach.

[01:10:58] Maybe you're a little bit more curious about how your breath can change your day.

[01:11:02] How you can get a little distance from your thoughts and emotions to get some relief and

[01:11:08] what's waiting to be discovered down deep inside you.

[01:11:11] There's so many tools and frameworks and knowledge about how to slip into a more peaceful emotional

[01:11:17] state, especially during, during these turbulent times.

[01:11:20] It is true that everyone is playing their role in the chaos.

[01:11:25] And those who already have a level of self-awareness are being called upon to go deeper,

[01:11:30] to wonder about our reactions to others we perceive as less aware, to empower us to discover

[01:11:37] the deeper truth of the situation, to allow new solutions to emerge that transcend the conflicting

[01:11:45] energies.

[01:11:46] And C.G.

[01:11:48] Young has this theory called the transcendent third.

[01:11:51] So for those who can manage this tension between conflicting values, conflicting emotions,

[01:11:58] eventually something new is formed that transcends and that gets popped up into consciousness.

[01:12:06] And eventually, collectively, there's a coalescence of a new way to live as being human.

[01:12:11] So also, if you've enjoyed this episode or my podcast in general, it'd be great if you consider

[01:12:16] being a financial supporter and I'll include that link too.

[01:12:19] So until, until next time.

[01:12:26] I'm your host, Debra Lukovic, and you were listening to Dose of Depth Podcast.

[01:12:32] To get updates on new episodes, my writing, and how I teach my clients to get to know that

[01:12:37] deeper part of themselves, go to DebraLukovic.com.

[01:12:40] Oh, and if you're not ready for a coach, learn what my clients know in my book, Your Soul

[01:12:46] is Talking.

[01:12:46] Are you listening?

[01:12:47] Five Steps to Uncovering Your Hidden Purpose.

[01:12:50] You can check it out on my website or get it on Amazon.