Pleasure & Arousal: The Literal and Symbolic w/Jenn Wodtke, Pleasure & Orgasm Coach

[00:00:02] Welcome to Dose of Depth podcast. I'm your host Deborah Lukovich, and I invite you to explore what's beneath the surface of all sorts of things, including your own life.

[00:00:14] Through conversation, stories, and education, you'll see what you couldn't see before, find new meaning in old events, and even discover a new sense of purpose out there in the world. Let's get started.

[00:00:29] Hey Jen, good to see you.

[00:00:31] Hey Debs, good to see you.

[00:00:33] I'm so excited about this idea. Like it's been so long since I found a new person to play with in the area of sexuality and arousal and fantasy and all of that so I was just so excited to meet you.

[00:00:50] Yeah, I've been looking forward to this conversation since we booked it in a few weeks ago. You do a lot of great juicy work and I love how we like, a lot of our underlying work is the same and we just come at it from different sexy angles I think.

[00:01:05] Oh, I love it, sexy angles. So to each of our audiences we just kind of wanted to introduce each other to our audiences and maybe we can start by Jen, you just saying who you are and what you do and how you help people and then I'll go next.

[00:01:22] Yeah, my name is Jen Wodke. You can find me at my website, jenwodke.com.

[00:01:28] I am a pleasure and orgasm coach so I primarily work with women who come to me often not directly for sex and pleasure related things there's usually like something underlying that but it feeds into often their enjoyment of their sex life and they kind of want more.

[00:01:46] I think a lot of women know that there's more out there for them in the realm of sex and pleasure so I help them find new pathways into their pleasure and their sexuality. And one of my absolute absolute favorite things that I've just recently started teaching is this concept of

[00:02:02] touchless orgasm. So, yeah.

[00:02:07] So okay fantastic so for your audience, Deborah Luka, which, and I have a PhD and master's in the field of depth psychology think Jungian psychology which is the study of the unconscious so my clients come to me for a lot of reasons but I would say bottom line it's about breaking

[00:02:30] out of limiting and conventional ideas about everything. So people my clients and people you know my listeners and watchers they're objectively successful on the outside but there's this angst on the inside about the systems that they have to operate in and you know some of my clients are business owners and entrepreneurs and they're trying to figure out how to do business in a different way or what does it mean to be a good father and husband and,

[00:02:58] and then also there's so many limiting ideas about how to be in relationship right and also like I wrote a blog post called maybe it's not about what if it's not about finding the one.

[00:03:12] Right, like what if it's about finding the one for now. And then there's another though one right so you know so you're you're helping people break out of these limiting ideas that are stifling them and you know it's hard to do that on your own right.

[00:03:29] Yeah, I mean, as a coach, I also love being coached. And I know all the tools and practices and what have you to teach my clients and to take them through you know when they're going through private sessions.

[00:03:42] I can do some of that myself but for when somebody expert is guiding you like they are making connections about things that you've said and experienced and are sharing that you can't see it's so hard to look at ourselves objectively.

[00:03:57] So it's so awesome when you have somebody there to help guide you deeper into yourself and I think what you said one of the things you said off the top was about that subconscious.

[00:04:10] That's my favorite place to play like what else is in me what else is under there like what's going on. We all have like these really sort of unplumbed depths that you know make us who we are and when we go in and play in there and sometimes I think of it like down in the muck of who we are once we start

[00:04:31] in there and digging some of that out. We can have this like amazing trajectory of expansion and recreating and reinventing ourselves and becoming truly live and truly whole so.

[00:04:44] Well you just called on the the lotus flower metaphor like the muck right it grows out of the muck and then you actually did this like the opening lotus flower which is the you know the enlighten the feeling of enlightenment which isn't just you know intellectual right the kundalini experiences about starting at the roots.

[00:05:06] The you know where we're grounded and then through all the chakras and so the spiritual orgasm is really coming into deeper relationship with our self capital S which is also the bridge to the transcendent whatever that means to you so that's like mind blowing right you don't even need another person for that.

[00:05:26] So anyway we'll talk about touchless orgasm but why don't we start with what we are trying to do is speak to each other's audiences like what is something that comes up in your work and I think maybe you want to talk about fantasy but what what comes up in your work that that I might bring a depth psychology perspective to.

[00:05:47] Definitely, I mean, I am a huge fantasizer myself.

[00:05:52] And I have a lot of differing kind of thoughts about how fantasy should play in my life how much I should let it in my life. And I know me, I don't have any like my fantasies, whatever I'm like, I'm down in the muck with them it's like this is only in my head.

[00:06:09] I'm fine with that I know that it's not reality and I know that I don't have an impulse to act on most of these, but I do know that for a lot of people in regards to their fantasies and even more generally to their sexuality.

[00:06:24] There can be a lot of really deep underlying emotions of like shame and guilt and embarrassment so I just wonder how that shows up in your work and how you help people about.

[00:06:38] It took me speaking of shame like I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't really understand that we don't create fantasies, we receive them.

[00:06:49] Right so fantasies spontaneous fantasies come out of the unconscious so right there. Don't feel bad. Like I remember during a phase of my midlife unraveling and reconstruction when I had a submission fantasy that wouldn't leave me alone.

[00:07:05] And the fantasy it was like in my bedroom and there was a particular man standing naked and I was kneeling and it just wouldn't leave me alone.

[00:07:17] I was in the middle of a business meeting and I was like all getting aroused and I'm like oh my god go away go away go away.

[00:07:22] I'm in a business meeting. So we don't create fantasies, we receive them. Now we can write scripts and we can imagine and sort of have our minds like we can direct a little bit.

[00:07:35] So you know that's the first thing not to feel bad about is that there's a deeper meaning to the fantasy that it represents something it's symbolic.

[00:07:44] And sometimes there is a need to literally act something out. So for example my fantasy the way that I came to find the deeper meaning of it is I decided to draw it.

[00:07:55] So I googled how do you draw a naked man standing with an erect penis?

[00:08:00] And there was a image I could draw and then I and then I googled how do you draw a naked woman kneeling looking at the naked and looking at the penis the erect penis.

[00:08:10] And as I drew it I ended up writing Receptive.

[00:08:15] So for me this was a time in my life that I was needing to surrender to the mysterious workings of my inner self and so it was about submitting not to a literal man, although I have another thought about that too.

[00:08:32] So at the same time I was doing some online dating and I was on OkCupid and for some odd and back then you could answer all these questions about sexuality what you're into or whatever.

[00:08:42] And I was like, I don't really know right and randomly this man emailed me I hadn't reached out to him at all.

[00:08:48] And he had this whole like theory about why successful powerful women want to be subs, want to be submissive in the bedroom.

[00:08:58] And he said well it's because they have to walk around like being independent and control to prove that they are you know they are worthy of being in the workplace that they just want to let go at some point.

[00:09:09] And at the time I was like you're annoying don't pretend you know me or women.

[00:09:13] But you know he was kind of right so like at the time I was like you know what I just at the end of my marriage I felt like I was keeping everything together and I would say to my former husband at the time like when do I get to fall apart?

[00:09:24] Why do I have to keep everything together?

[00:09:26] So you can see like that one fantasy is yes was sexuality was sex was kind of part of it but it had this deeper meaning that had to do with surrendering when I had you know had all these protective mechanisms and my persona was very strong.

[00:09:47] I wasn't vulnerable to the outside world you know now I am and so that was how I found deeper meaning in that in that particular fantasy.

[00:09:55] So I love I love the topic of fantasies.

[00:09:59] So would you almost say that a fantasy is just a waking dream in some ways?

[00:10:04] Yeah yes in that the images that are presented to you can be explored just like dream images.

[00:10:12] So you look at like what are my associations with this image and for the concept of submission think about it to submit.

[00:10:23] So people misunderstand that submit is not passive.

[00:10:29] You choose to receive or you're being forced then you're not receiving you're being assaulted right?

[00:10:37] So to receive is active, to submit is active so yeah.

[00:10:45] And I think another thing that I think people get wrong or maybe misunderstand about the concept of submission is that it's not a position of disempowerment.

[00:10:58] Choosing to submit as you said is very empowering.

[00:11:02] And we allow women the space and the freedom to submit and sometimes broader scale we expect women should submit.

[00:11:12] And I think it's really unfortunate that we don't allow men the same space culturally that we expect women to do that.

[00:11:20] So I think there's some really inter-ingendered expectations around that.

[00:11:27] Absolutely and actually before I ask you my question that comes up with my audience is I recently had on my podcast Mark Benateau who wrote a book that I bumped into in 2016 called As Lovers Do.

[00:11:43] And it's one of the most beautiful books on sort of relationship that I have ever read because it talks about the masculine and the feminine inside.

[00:11:52] So the masculine isn't gender right? The masculine is like a way of navigating, of approaching life right?

[00:12:01] It's linear, it uses reason and the intellect and you know the feminine is the meandering, it's creative right?

[00:12:11] Like the masculine doesn't create. It brings form to the chaotic creation of the feminine.

[00:12:17] So those two things, so it's about being fluid and he makes room in there to talk about like yes sometimes men in sex, literal sex want to be in a submissive position.

[00:12:30] They want to be able to surrender to something. So he just talks really beautifully about sort of psychologically and emotionally what is going on.

[00:12:41] And then again like yeah literally sex that goes on but it also is about the rest of our lives.

[00:12:47] You know what is our relationship? Are we fluid with our masculine and our feminine? Do we feel you know men are more emasculated by other men not to be vulnerable and not to sort of you know bring out their feminine than women are.

[00:13:01] So yeah so what comes up I think you know from for you to talk to my listeners sometimes I can be a little bit too much in the symbolic right and not be literal enough.

[00:13:17] So you know women especially but men do too have a weird relationship with pleasure right because we have this sort of the Christianity, let's just say Christianity got involved in this and actually what Christianity is today and how some people interpret the doctrine is not really true.

[00:13:45] There were feminist voices way at the very beginning of the writing of Christian doctrine and if you actually sort of look at Jesus he really is a great combination of the masculine and feminine even if you look at him physically right it's really interesting.

[00:13:58] But so we have this warped and I have another book I'll put the link in the description box that's Rhianne Eisler's book Sacred Pleasure.

[00:14:07] So she kind of goes through the history of you know what happened when we sort of decided that pleasure wasn't good and that instead we are going to sacralize suffering instead of pleasure.

[00:14:19] And then of course we were going to we were going to put it all on women to do the suffering right and then men of course were supposed to be afraid of that's why men want to control one's bodies because they're afraid of what the power that women have over them all that kind of stuff.

[00:14:32] But anyway so maybe just talk to my audience about about pleasure and like that's such a big topic right there.

[00:14:41] You know I was just I love that you and I are having this conversation today it was interesting just yesterday or the day before you know I woke up with it is just this like I was thinking about my clients and thinking about what I had been teaching and just had this like I just put it all I just had a realization where it all came together into a succinct thought.

[00:15:01] Where in what I'm talking to a client when she's just come in and we're going through you know where she wants to be in her sexuality versus what she's experienced.

[00:15:13] And when we get into the conversation of orgasm it's so fascinating to me that most women not all women there are some women who certainly are pre orgasmic across the board but more common I hear women saying oh you know I can orgasm by myself but not with a partner.

[00:15:29] Common experience. But what always floors me after that is typically the next thing out of her mouth is but it's okay like I still love sex like I still have a good time.

[00:15:41] Like women are constantly just accepting that they just don't get to have the same orgasmic experiences as men like it's just accepted and make sure that you know that they're still enjoying they're still having a good time.

[00:15:52] And I just I don't work a lot with men but I don't know it seems to me that if a man can't orgasm.

[00:16:00] He's like going to the doctor ASAP and this is a problem that needs to be fixed immediately if he can't orgasm during partnered sex.

[00:16:08] And I just think it's really interesting how so many women have this paradigm where they just accept that like, just doesn't happen with a partner, or it's harder with a partner and I think that's where my passion lies it's like we need to change that acceptance that broad cultural acceptance that women have that like ours isn't as important like,

[00:16:29] I don't come to it with my partner. Yeah, you know, like, I think it's also like, women of course, well women can be really mean to women and men of course but I think sometimes.

[00:16:41] Well, you know what comes up for me are those times when women pretend.

[00:16:46] Right.

[00:16:48] And why do they do that because, well some younger women don't pretend they're like, you know, they're more honest than maybe people of my generation but it's like you feel bad so oh here's what's coming up for me during my unraveling and my online dating period.

[00:17:01] And I remember being with this one man, and oh and he was, oh just you know kissing me and you know that's what he was doing.

[00:17:09] And I love that, but I told him I said you know what I think I have a couple of friends that are like, oh, I'm going to do this.

[00:17:17] And he was like, oh, I'm going to do this.

[00:17:19] And I remember being with this one man and oh and he was, oh just you know kissing me and you know then he moved down to that area.

[00:17:30] And I love that, but I told him I said you know what I think I have a performance anxiety. And it wasn't about like, it didn't have anything to do with him it had to do with like how long it might take him to pleasure me until I orgasmed.

[00:17:50] That's like warped man, like I like, right so I'm the one who felt bad. Like it was my responsibility if I couldn't orgasm because of what he was doing.

[00:18:04] I think that's such a common experience. Like I've had those experiences myself where someone's going down to me and like oh my god I'm taking too long and then you get into your head and it's like, oh, I'm going to do this.

[00:18:17] And I would instead of instead of just saying hey why don't you move a little this way or do a little like, why can't we do some of us do that.

[00:18:27] I would never shame somebody who's faked an orgasm like I understand why that happens.

[00:18:32] But I think when you zoom out from that a little bit, I think it just seems that women, even in the bedroom are playing to men's egos right like you don't want to be me.

[00:18:47] It's almost like I don't want to be mean and not have an orgasm when he spent, you know, 30 minutes going down on me like it just, it does not how it works.

[00:18:56] And that kind of like in our head thinking and this is one of the main things I do in my one on one individual coaching and something that we also really work on inside of the touchless orgasm course, you have to get out of your head right.

[00:19:09] If you're thinking I'm taking too long or do I taste funny or, oh my god, you know, you're not enjoying what can happen in your bodies and I think this is so common amongst women.

[00:19:24] Coming back from what you said earlier about how we moved out of that sacred feminine women have lost touch with the sacredness of their own bodies and their pleasure and the receptive capabilities that they have and even going back to what you said about

[00:19:38] chaos like that resonated to like sometimes I feel like I have that chaos flowing in me. But if I'm thinking about it, I can't connect with it. I can't feel it. I can't enjoy it. I can't direct it. I can't use it to bring myself to work as them.

[00:19:51] So are so then. So you're helping them get out of the mind and into the body and quiet. So is your touchless orgasm. I love that is really about them coming into better relationship with their own body and their own sexuality, which then automatically is going to allow them to have a different experience with a partner if they want to have a partner.

[00:20:17] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We spend there's sort of three main chunks. So we spend some time really focusing on body sensations. A lot of us have become numb to our bodies wisdom to pleasure. So we just spend a lot of time just focusing on what do I actually feel my body was actually happening.

[00:20:37] Then we do a bit of pleasure building where we start once we've connected with that pleasure, we start working on expanding it and circulating it. And what can I do with it? And then there is the mind piece where the mind piece is really getting out of mind, right? Getting underneath what's there.

[00:20:56] So whenever anybody does any of this work, I was going to comment like, Oh, you know, this belief popped up. I didn't know that I had or I was masturbating and all of a sudden I remembered, you know, something from my childhood where my dad's, you know, bad girls don't do this, whatever.

[00:21:12] So we also really do a lot of work with that piece because until you have to have all three of them, right? Like you have to have that body sensitivity. You have to have the ability to connect and control your pleasure. And you need to know what's underneath it that's blocking you. So we do all three of those to just the new pleasure. Yeah.

[00:21:35] Yeah, I think we can just kind of round this off. I love it. I think we can round this out with their, you know, sexual attraction. Sexuality is a life force. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right? Right. Like we you don't really make yourself aroused or feel attraction. It's so mysterious. And there is a hidden purpose to it.

[00:22:02] And one of the things that that we were talking about before is, you know, fantasies. So for example, I remember the moment that I discovered that, you know, that arousal was not about sex, literal sex.

[00:22:24] And I was having a conversation with a colleague that I really respected. We were both community leaders and we love getting together and chatting. We're having a beer at a bar. And suddenly, I'm feeling aroused.

[00:22:37] And this is a man. He's just a colleague and he's married and right. And so I'm like, hey, why am I feeling aroused? And I had this conversation in my head while I was like, like, like pretending like I'm trying to figure this out because I'm like, what is going on right now? Why do I feel aroused?

[00:22:57] And in my head, I'm going, am I attracted to him? And then I imagine kissing him and I'm like, no, I'm really. So why am I on fire right now with arousal? And it was because of what we were talking about.

[00:23:11] So I get aroused intellectually. And so an idea. So if you think of like, you know, creative intelligence flows through us as a rousal and the deeper meaning besides its fun pleasure, right, is that it's seeking to create. It's seeking to express something.

[00:23:32] So two people and I think often male female friendships, we talked about this on during my podcast with about authentic relating with Mark Benito, the same author is that, you know, you know, males often a friendship, whether it's another woman or two men or a man and a woman where there's a

[00:23:53] arousal, there's this immediate like, there's this immediate. We're worried about it. Like I can't be aroused around him. I know his wife. And so sometimes we misunderstand what the attraction is.

[00:24:10] And, and one of the things that people can do is when they're in that situation, they can wonder about like, what does that person represent for me? That is speaking very deeply to a part of me that's trying to come out and be intimate with me. So one last thing when when sex dreams are rarely about literal sex, they're about becoming intimate with yourself.

[00:24:35] And so often you'll have a really weird sex dream that you feel shame about. And what that really is, is that there's something about yourself that's trying to grow a new part of yourself, but there's shame attached to it. So it's not even about sex at all. Your psyche is just calling on this sex act to produce this feeling of shame and to help you understand that there's a part of you that you don't feel you'll have a healthy relationship with.

[00:25:04] And it wants to be intimate with you. So yeah, so well this is this has been great as a little intro to our to our audiences and just to let all of you know we're actually going to have a longer chat.

[00:25:20] And I would say, you know, subscribe to both of our websites and reach out. And if you have any particular questions that you might want us to discuss, that'd be cool.

[00:25:32] Yeah, and I'm, I know I offer free calls on my site too if anybody's hearing this and is like, Oh, well, Jen, same. We both do. So absolutely head to both of our websites and schedule in a time to talk to either one or both of us because.

[00:25:48] Yeah. Yeah, or take advantage of whatever our free resources are so so Jen this has been great and I look forward to having a longer chat and seeing where we might meander when it comes to sexuality.

[00:26:01] Thank you for having me it was so so great to catch up and I feel like we just started like just started scratching the surface here so for this conversation.

[00:26:11] For sure definitely. Okay, well, take care.

[00:26:16] I'm your host Deborah Luka bitch, and you were listening to dose of depth podcast to get updates on new episodes my writing and how I teach my clients to get to know that deeper part of themselves.

[00:26:33] Go to Deborah Luke of itch calm. Oh, and if you're not ready for a coach. Learn what my clients know in my book, your soul is talking. Are you listening five steps to uncovering your hidden purpose, you can check it out on my website or get it on Amazon.