Autism and Triggering the Natural Healing Properties of the Brain: A Chat with Kim Pomares from Mendability

[00:00:02] Welcome to Dose of Depth podcast. I'm your host, Deborah Lukovich, and I invite you to explore what's beneath the surface of all sorts of things, including your own life. Through conversation, stories and education, you'll see what you couldn't see before, find new meaning in old events, and even discover a new sense of purpose out there in the world. Let's get started.

[00:00:29] Today, I'm excited to have a chat with a new friend whose work is so powerful. I know you're going to find it interesting and want to share with others, especially those who have a family member with autism. Kim Pomares is the CEO of Mendability, a company founded by his mother, Claudia Pomares, to enhance brain health through sensory enrichment therapy. Kim joined Mendability to make its innovative approach to

[00:00:58] accessible to those who need it most by validating the program in randomized controlled trials and developing a computer system to prescribe affordable, customized programs for families worldwide. When I learned about Kim's business, a couple of things stood out to me about their approach and him as a person. The first thing that really resonated was Kim's reframing of the problem. My son had difficulty fitting in school right from the

[00:01:28] from the start. Yet he was never diagnosed with anything specific. I became a researcher, learning about sensory integration, how his eyes weren't teaming quite right, and even forms of giftedness like intensity that weren't recognized or appreciated at school. We enrolled in programs that were so expensive, and I wondered about all the families who couldn't afford them. We started trying to integrate those strategies at home. When we brought specific strategies to the school, we had to be able to integrate those strategies at home.

[00:01:58] When we brought specific strategies at home. We were told over and over to the school, we were told over and over that it wasn't their job. When they demanded we get him evaluated, we brought back the report done by a psychologist at the renowned Children's Hospital. It noted that teachers would have to work to keep him engaged because he was smart.

[00:02:17] Well, the principal literally said, that's not our job. Even when the superintendent personally intervened to get him additional resources, the teachers were pissed. And my son was then marked and resented by the school administration. It was crazy. It was so frustrating and advocating just didn't work overall.

[00:02:40] Outside of an ally here and there, we just kept getting told it wasn't their job to engage children in learning.

[00:02:47] I'm not being hyperbolic. When my son was eight and in third grade, he said, Mom, I learn more from watching National Geographic than from my teachers.

[00:02:56] And I don't share this to get down on teachers. They get demonized enough and they work in a system that many are trying to bleed dry and even dismantle.

[00:03:08] Although this was the wealthiest school district in the state.

[00:03:11] Of course, we tried to be supportive at home, but all the programs out there took place outside of the home in an office someplace.

[00:03:20] Kim really got my attention when he suggested that if parents were willing to play essentially the role of therapist for their child,

[00:03:27] the stress and damage done during the day at school could be undone after school.

[00:03:34] Mendability teaches parents how to be a coach for their child to reduce their stress, calming them,

[00:03:40] which helps their brain work better and increases joy, which isn't that what we want for our children?

[00:03:47] The second thing Kim talked about that really got my attention had to do with the brain's natural healing capacity,

[00:03:54] specifically the role of combining sensory experiences like smell and touch.

[00:04:00] I think Kim's work at Mendability is actually soul work.

[00:04:05] Each time they strengthen the relationship between parents and children and impart knowledge about our brain's natural healing properties,

[00:04:14] without them needing to be the expert, they impact the future, which is so uncertain right now.

[00:04:21] Instead of feeling victimized by circumstances we can't control or change,

[00:04:26] Mendability empowers parents and even teachers.

[00:04:30] Their stress probably goes down too, which in turn relieves children from having to carry the stress of others as well.

[00:04:38] So let's get started.

[00:04:41] Welcome, Kim. How are you doing today?

[00:04:44] I'm great. This is my first podcast.

[00:04:49] Oh, I didn't know that.

[00:04:50] It is. I've never been a guest.

[00:04:51] Well, I've been a guest on, you know, that's not true.

[00:04:56] I did. Well, it wasn't podcast.

[00:04:58] They were called radio online radio at the time that I think I just dated myself.

[00:05:03] Well, how lucky am I then?

[00:05:05] I get you for the first time.

[00:05:07] So I thought I'd just start by, you know, a way for people to get to know you.

[00:05:11] Like, you know, what are you focused on these days?

[00:05:14] And I love your work.

[00:05:16] And, you know, I'm coming at this from a depth psychology lens, a more soulful lens.

[00:05:20] But as I listen and learn more about your work, you know, I think it connects with its relationship oriented, really.

[00:05:28] And I'm so sick of the obsession with the brain.

[00:05:30] You know, in so many ways, what we what science discovers is really what sages knew thousands of years ago.

[00:05:37] So, you know, anyway, so and also I gave you a question ahead of time.

[00:05:44] Like, what have you learned recently that's that's new and exciting for you?

[00:05:48] So whatever you want to share to warm us up.

[00:05:50] Yeah, well, the thing that is getting me excited today is actually relationship stuff.

[00:05:59] But it's going to be brain stuff.

[00:06:01] So I hope you don't mind.

[00:06:03] Not of course, if we can bring both together.

[00:06:06] All right.

[00:06:06] Let's do this.

[00:06:07] Yeah.

[00:06:08] The there's a paper that just came out or came out maybe a few months ago now that show that specific tactile experiences trigger release of oxytocin.

[00:06:22] Now, this has been around, but they weren't sure how and when and where.

[00:06:27] And so this paper underlined and clarified a few things.

[00:06:33] And so we incorporated this into our therapeutic approach.

[00:06:39] But as we were doing that, we were looking at ways to because oxytocin for your listeners is the social hormone.

[00:06:49] It's when your brain releases oxytocin and you're interacting with another human being or even an animal, your brain, your body wants to connect, wants to to form a bond with that individual animal.

[00:07:05] Oh, thank you.

[00:07:07] Oh, great.

[00:07:09] There you go.

[00:07:10] And a lot of the people that we work with have got social things that are labeled as social skills difficulties.

[00:07:20] And so we got really excited that we can get the brain to regulate its bonding mechanisms from a physiological perspective.

[00:07:33] By doing very simple things.

[00:07:34] That is exciting.

[00:07:35] You know, simple things like a hand massage or a foot massage.

[00:07:38] This is what the study found out is that it's not all tactile activities.

[00:07:43] Well, all tactile activities in a way trigger release of oxytocin.

[00:07:48] But hand massage and foot massage in particular are strongly correlated, very strongly correlated to a strong release of oxytocin.

[00:07:58] So now we get all of our clients do some form of hand massage or foot massage.

[00:08:03] But then we also at the same time, it's really cool how the universe brings things together.

[00:08:09] Sometimes we were consulting with parenting experts on how we could help kids do therapy in a way that doesn't feel like therapy, you know, because they're sick and tired of having to be told to perform a certain way and to learn.

[00:08:28] Things that they don't care about and do things they don't want to do.

[00:08:35] And this idea of doing therapy as a group involving a third person in a session and everybody is doing it to one another, all of a sudden feels like it's a special moment between the three of them.

[00:08:50] And it's no longer a therapist and a child, a therapist and an adult or a parent acting as a therapist, doing therapy at home and a child.

[00:08:58] And and so all of these together, we were we're even rebranding almost.

[00:09:05] We're so excited about this that we're rebranding our approach as a family centered brain games type of approach.

[00:09:13] It was always family centered.

[00:09:15] It was always we always believed that parents were are the experts of their children in ways that a therapist will never be able to aspire.

[00:09:24] And and that's why we love training the parents and getting them to do the this therapy.

[00:09:31] But the idea that it could we could trigger the bonding and the source and develop the social skills or it's I don't like talking about social skills.

[00:09:44] I like talking about developing an interest and a comfort level and a confidence level in engaging with other human beings.

[00:09:52] I think this is what parents really want.

[00:09:55] And this is the natural way of because you go to social groups, classes where if somebody says this and smiles this way, then you have to do this this way and make sure you shake people hand and a firm grip and not too firm and eye contact and all that stuff.

[00:10:11] That's like so mechanical and so uninteresting.

[00:10:15] Yeah.

[00:10:16] Yeah.

[00:10:17] Anyway, so that's what's.

[00:10:18] And it's and in a way it's not authentic.

[00:10:21] It's not genuine.

[00:10:22] It's more like superficial.

[00:10:25] Well, that is super exciting.

[00:10:27] And so many thoughts came up for me about that.

[00:10:30] The first being and I'll bring in a chakra lens here, which is really just about energy centers.

[00:10:38] But, you know, the hands and the feet are considered the root chakra and the root chakra has to do with us feeling grounded.

[00:10:47] And I know my son had some sensory integration issues.

[00:10:51] And so I learned a little bit about it and I learned how, you know, for some children, they feel like they're floating around in space.

[00:10:58] Like they don't feel grounded.

[00:11:00] And can you imagine just like that must be terrifying.

[00:11:03] So how could you even focus on connecting with another human being if you don't feel like connected to your own existence in the world?

[00:11:11] Exactly.

[00:11:12] Exactly.

[00:11:12] And when we teach that to parents, that kids don't have a sense of self and they're where they are in space.

[00:11:19] And I love how you describe it as they feel like they're just floating with no anchor, with no grounding.

[00:11:24] It feels like a breakthrough to them.

[00:11:26] It's like, ah, of course, if they don't even know where they are, how can they relate or even want to relate?

[00:11:33] And it's all about wanting to relate and being comfortable to relate.

[00:11:38] Yes, totally.

[00:11:38] Oh, I love that.

[00:11:40] And the other thing it reminds me of is back when, I mean, I was, I'm grateful for the time that I started my family because there was so much research on fertility and how to really prepare yourself.

[00:11:51] And there was, you know, I mean, it seems so intuitive, of course, but the research about like skin to skin touch with your newborn.

[00:12:00] So I don't know if that's an oxytocin thing or something else.

[00:12:03] Well, I never like care.

[00:12:04] I was never into like strapping a baby to me, like walking around, but I spent a lot of time laying on the couch with like skin to skin contact with my just some sleeping.

[00:12:15] So it reminds me of that.

[00:12:16] And the last thing it reminds me of is Playworks.

[00:12:20] So Playworks is a national organization that is evidence-based, research-based, uses play to transform a school culture, but it is about community building.

[00:12:37] And so play is sort of not purposeful in a task or outcome-oriented way, but it is about...

[00:12:44] Well, it's what you learn.

[00:12:46] It's the dynamics of challenging, I was going to say enemy in air quotes.

[00:12:53] It's not about that, but it's challenging how far you can go in your relationship with a person and finding where the boundaries are.

[00:12:59] And that happens in play.

[00:13:02] And then you end up, and this doesn't happen as much anymore.

[00:13:05] And you need programs like Playworks to come in and reintroduce this sort of natural have fun and play and, you know, cowboy.

[00:13:15] Yeah, and it's about community.

[00:13:17] And our most exciting testimonials were always from the special ed teachers.

[00:13:23] So there was something around Playworks because it was instead of the special needs children having to conform to community, the emphasis was put on the community making space and welcoming the special needs children.

[00:13:38] And they just said like there was such a jump in their happiness of being at school.

[00:13:43] So, yeah, so that's what you're talking about.

[00:13:45] I mean, that is like a sensory integration.

[00:13:47] And I also, I think it's relevant to bring up that the root of knowing is to relate.

[00:13:53] And so the focusing too much on like the brain and tasks is incomplete knowing, right?

[00:14:00] To relate us through the body.

[00:14:04] And so when you're talking about, you know, touch and combining, you know, aroma and skin and touch, we experience through the body.

[00:14:15] The mind is only part of it.

[00:14:16] I have a study in mind that's, it's really dramatic.

[00:14:20] It ends very badly for the animals in the study.

[00:14:24] And it's one of the last studies that was done before they put in some rules to protect animals.

[00:14:32] But one of the, so that study, and you must have heard of it because it's really famous.

[00:14:37] The late 60s, late 60s, early 70s, two sets of monkeys.

[00:14:46] I can't remember, I think they were macaque monkeys.

[00:14:50] Baby pups.

[00:14:52] And they never knew their mother.

[00:14:55] But in their cages, they place either a wire with a bottle.

[00:15:04] And it's kind of shaped like a mom monkey.

[00:15:07] Do you know that study?

[00:15:08] Yeah.

[00:15:09] Oh yeah.

[00:15:09] And then, and there's another one that doesn't give food at all, but is soft to the touch.

[00:15:17] Well, most of the monkeys died.

[00:15:20] They preferred to not go feed.

[00:15:23] They preferred the tactile sensation.

[00:15:26] Oh my God.

[00:15:27] And this, this is one of the leading studies in the importance of touch.

[00:15:31] There's another study that was done with mice where the mouse, the mom was able to lick her pup.

[00:15:39] And then there was a mom that wasn't allowed to lick her pup, but the pup was in the presence of the mother.

[00:15:46] And the third group where the pups weren't in their mom's presence or separated from their mother, but a lab technician would go and simulate the licking with a brush on the back.

[00:16:01] And the two, the one with mom and the one without mom, so long as they were touched, developed, were able to release and regulate their serotonin production, which is what you need for learning, brain growth, feeling in control, processing the environment.

[00:16:19] And the importance of touch from a physiological and brain obsessed perspective.

[00:16:24] Yeah.

[00:16:25] Wow.

[00:16:26] I was going to say, let's dig in, but I feel like we already have.

[00:16:30] So, so, so, well, let's talk about you and how you got here.

[00:16:32] Cause as a depth psychologist, I'm always curious about people's journey and how they got to where they are.

[00:16:39] And, you know, sometimes we answer the hero's call and sometimes we don't, or sometimes we have to be tricked into a certain, you know, a certain situation that provides the experience that we need in order to get to like our full purpose.

[00:16:52] And I feel like this is your purpose.

[00:16:54] And, and then of course, add in there that you're in a family business, you know, that that's always tricky.

[00:17:00] I quit so many times.

[00:17:03] Until, until I guess you had what you needed in order for you to come back and find your role, I suppose.

[00:17:09] So, so tell us, yeah, tell us the story.

[00:17:12] Okay.

[00:17:13] Okay.

[00:17:13] Um, I think it, I have to start with this recurring dream that I had as a teenager.

[00:17:18] Oh, okay.

[00:17:19] You know, you got to tell me.

[00:17:20] I thought, I thought you would like that.

[00:17:23] Yep.

[00:17:25] I can see a doll's house and a bunch of very unhappy kids, teenagers are flocking to this house.

[00:17:36] So if, I don't know, it's like I'm a giant and I'm looking at regular size people, but the front of the house is cut off and I can see what's happening outside and inside the house.

[00:17:44] And I can see that the kids are unhappy.

[00:17:47] They walk in and there's cool stuff.

[00:17:51] It's fuzzy.

[00:17:52] What happens?

[00:17:53] I'm not fuzzy on the details of what happens, but I know that they're happy inside.

[00:17:57] And I had this dream two or three times and I felt an urge or calling to contribute and maybe set up houses like this or, or help people in that way.

[00:18:14] And, and so, I don't know, one thing led to another.

[00:18:18] Uh, I also watch a movie where this guy, uh, he finds a cure for cancer.

[00:18:25] I think, I don't remember what it was, but I just, again, I felt this urge and this calling.

[00:18:30] I'm going to find a cure for cancer.

[00:18:31] So I go, I decide college is going to be biochemistry.

[00:18:34] And then I, I graduate and then I decide to go on, on a mission, um, uh, as a church missionary and I'm assigned to go to Greece.

[00:18:45] And I spent some time there and I realized the, the state of disarray politically, economically, a lot of suffering in Eastern Europe.

[00:18:55] And I think, and I, so I come back and say, okay, I'm going to do international law.

[00:18:58] So there's this urge to do something to make a dent in the universe.

[00:19:05] Um, but I can't put my finger on it.

[00:19:10] But when you see how it goes back to this house in the end, then I feel like that was the original calling.

[00:19:16] And I've always, and actually it's funny.

[00:19:20] Um, I, I, I, I, I, there's this volunteer organization, uh, locally called, um, I can't remember what it's called, but they're the first responders for emotional distress.

[00:19:35] So if somebody has just lost a person or, um, usually death or, or gravely ill situation, they send trained volunteers to go and be the shoulder to cry on.

[00:19:49] Except they didn't take me in.

[00:19:51] There was a recruiting process.

[00:19:52] And I was like, what?

[00:19:54] I'm your ideal candidate.

[00:19:57] And they, and they said, yeah, your profile, we call that Superman syndrome.

[00:20:02] Oh.

[00:20:02] And you, you will destroy yourself in this volunteer capacity.

[00:20:09] Um, you can, we need people who are not so keen on helping.

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:14] I mean, people who can be stable and anchored and your profile, uh, doesn't, is not ideal for this, uh, position.

[00:20:24] So anyway, I had a psych, I'm psychologically profiled as Superman syndrome, which explains everything.

[00:20:30] You know, this international law, but, um, while I was in school to do international law, I did a graphic design.

[00:20:38] Cause I, I, I love to do dual and I thought, why not make money doodling?

[00:20:44] Cause I knew that it was going to take a long time to get into law.

[00:20:48] And I thought I'd make some money to get there.

[00:20:52] And so I went to college to formalize my training graphic design.

[00:20:57] And I set up a graphic design business and, um, really quite successful at it.

[00:21:03] Starting to pick up speed.

[00:21:04] I'm still in school.

[00:21:05] So, and my mother, this whole time she's in, you know, um, she, she had gone in his sixties to school to learn how to help people with their brain.

[00:21:18] And I knew she was doing that, but it's my mom of all really.

[00:21:23] I mean, I, so I, she wasn't credible in my mind as, you know, finding the cure for cancer or whatever, but she was doing a good job.

[00:21:32] And, you know, she asked me to help her because her private clinic was growing.

[00:21:35] She was getting more and more government contracts and, and it was just growing beyond her capacity to manage.

[00:21:41] And she said, Hey, you're doing this thing with your business.

[00:21:44] Can you help me?

[00:21:45] And I said, sure, mom, I'll come and help you.

[00:21:47] Well, you know, get you organized and we'll recruit some people, get you a team, and then I'll go back to what I love.

[00:21:54] And then this is when I realized the impact of what she was doing.

[00:21:59] It was a miracle after miracle after miracle.

[00:22:03] We had, uh, you know, we were talking about kids visit who walking, talking.

[00:22:10] We had, uh, adults with stroke, you know, completely recovering.

[00:22:15] We had people, uh, seniors with Parkinson's and it is, is like, wow, this is, this is amazing.

[00:22:22] But there's no clinical evidence.

[00:22:25] There's no, there, there wasn't the stuff that I needed to anchor to, to formalize this.

[00:22:31] Um, so that, this is one, okay, mom.

[00:22:34] Yes.

[00:22:35] But you need a whole lot more than just a better private clinic.

[00:22:38] We need to do randomized control trials.

[00:22:40] We need to do this.

[00:22:41] We need to do that.

[00:22:41] And, but this is how I got, um, where am I today?

[00:22:45] And I was 25 years ago now.

[00:22:48] You know, I'm stuck on your Superman complex.

[00:22:53] You could think about, you know, you know, that saying that we, we teach what we need to learn.

[00:23:00] Right.

[00:23:00] So like the need, the need to rescue can be mirrored back to like, oh, what in me needs to be rescued?

[00:23:11] And maybe that's worked itself out, but.

[00:23:14] I don't know.

[00:23:17] You just poked somewhere and is like, I don't know if it's supposed to hurt there.

[00:23:22] That's what I do.

[00:23:23] No, it's just like, well, if, if it resonated, it did.

[00:23:26] Now you have something to wonder about.

[00:23:28] If not like, oh, whatever.

[00:23:32] So Carl Jung calls that the click factor.

[00:23:35] If something clicks, you're like, hmm.

[00:23:39] If it doesn't, it's like, whatever.

[00:23:40] So I'm wired to help because I actually need.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:48] Well, there's something that needs tending to.

[00:23:51] Okay.

[00:23:52] It's amazing who shows up to be my client.

[00:23:55] There's always like, oh, one of those moments.

[00:23:57] I'm like, oh, I need to work on that too.

[00:23:59] So they all, the people who show up, even the children who show up,

[00:24:04] every interaction you have with someone has meaning and they're mirroring something back to you.

[00:24:09] So, so all those wonderful children, your help are mirroring something back.

[00:24:14] Yeah.

[00:24:14] So, all right.

[00:24:15] So let's talk a little bit.

[00:24:17] I know you're not an expert in this.

[00:24:19] You already said.

[00:24:20] And, um, but I like this concept of neurodivergent and I loved the movie series Divergent.

[00:24:27] Divergent.

[00:24:28] Oh, I was like, man.

[00:24:30] I know my kids read the book.

[00:24:32] Oh no.

[00:24:33] We watched the movies.

[00:24:34] Yeah.

[00:24:35] Yeah.

[00:24:35] Yes.

[00:24:36] That whole concept of like, oh, society needs to like put you in a box.

[00:24:40] And then there's this, you know, this, uh, time of specialization.

[00:24:44] So, you know, if, if you are really talented in that, that's all you should do and become

[00:24:49] an expert in that.

[00:24:50] And then you lose your, you know, your sense of fluidity.

[00:24:52] And so anyway, I like it because I feel that people who are considered neurodivergent or

[00:24:59] neuro, not neurotypical or whatever it is that they kind of are like taking it and claiming

[00:25:06] it.

[00:25:07] And I have interviewed Cher Griffin a couple of times and she was, is a, she's in, she's

[00:25:13] probably 40 now, but she was a late diagnosed ADHD.

[00:25:19] Uh, she was gifted, but didn't really, wasn't able to really like maximize that.

[00:25:24] So she didn't have resources to really express her giftedness.

[00:25:28] And, um, and what, and what else?

[00:25:32] And I think is she has maybe on the spectrum for autism.

[00:25:37] And so, you know, she has created a community called the compassion collective and it specifically

[00:25:45] intersects with substance abuse too, because sometimes when you are not welcome by society

[00:25:52] for who you are, right, there is a, what do you do when you feel lonely?

[00:25:55] And this really connects with the sensory enrichment too, right?

[00:25:58] Cause if you're not even with people, much less being touched, then the, you know, that

[00:26:03] can lead to relationship with substance, but she pulled herself out of that.

[00:26:07] And that's kind of her specialty now is like really, and I think a lot of us are exploring

[00:26:12] like, what is the relationship that we have with substance and what, what is it sort of

[00:26:17] replacing?

[00:26:17] So anyway, so she's just, we call those people misfits.

[00:26:21] Like by now, I think I'm pretty, I think I probably got a little ADHD, got a little Asperger's,

[00:26:26] got a little of this, got a little of that.

[00:26:27] But I didn't know, nobody said there was really anything wrong with me.

[00:26:30] I just had to find my own way.

[00:26:33] And so I, I kind of, I just like it.

[00:26:35] And also normal, normal isn't necessarily good.

[00:26:39] Normal just means norm.

[00:26:41] So everybody like says normal, like it's good and you know, we need to evolve.

[00:26:46] So, and there's a light and dark side to, to all traits.

[00:26:51] And I've shared this with people, but I find autism very interesting in particular because

[00:26:57] there is this extreme connection with the inner world.

[00:27:02] I mean, we don't even know what it's like in there for those kids who have autism and you

[00:27:09] know, them showing up as this, you know, new, this emergence of this intense inner connection

[00:27:18] in a, in depth psychology, we would say, what is that mirroring back to the rest of us?

[00:27:23] The need for us to get invited into their inner world instead of imposing on them.

[00:27:28] And then also maybe mirroring back the need for us to get connected.

[00:27:32] Carl Jung would say, you know, the, the last frontier is our inner world, not the ocean and,

[00:27:38] and the, and space.

[00:27:39] It's our inner world because most of us is in our inner world.

[00:27:42] So anyway, I love misfits.

[00:27:45] So I'm just curious about, I don't know, your thought about neuro divergence and just,

[00:27:51] you know, what, what, what do you think is being mirrored back by, you know, your work

[00:27:55] with these, these awesome kids?

[00:27:57] First of all, I want to say, I've put my foot, my foot in it many times when it comes to this.

[00:28:04] In fact, when we named our company Mendability, we received a lot of negative feedback.

[00:28:11] This idea that we are here to mend abilities and well, okay.

[00:28:21] And it says, so, so then, so they were not here to mend.

[00:28:25] We're not broken.

[00:28:25] We're just different, right?

[00:28:26] Or like Temple Grandin says, different, not less.

[00:28:29] Or, and I totally agreed with this.

[00:28:32] I didn't realize that what we were saying with our company is when you come to us, we'll fix you.

[00:28:38] And it's, and then, and then we said, no, no, no, we're not fixing you.

[00:28:42] We're fixing abilities.

[00:28:45] We're fixing, we're fixing, you know, the kids who can't sleep.

[00:28:49] The kids who can't be touched.

[00:28:52] The kids who are, who, who struggle.

[00:28:57] We're just not happy.

[00:28:58] We want to make the kids happy.

[00:29:00] That's all we care.

[00:29:01] I don't care.

[00:29:02] I don't care.

[00:29:02] I don't care.

[00:29:02] I don't care.

[00:29:03] I don't care what they do in life.

[00:29:06] So long as they're happy, comfortable.

[00:29:08] And I think, so the neurodivergent community is, is really good at do, uh, I, you know, creating awareness around the issue.

[00:29:19] Hey, we're different.

[00:29:20] Welcome the difference and maybe be more proactive about creating a community that is comfortable for the people who are not comfortable in their world today can maybe become more comfortable if we make some accommodations.

[00:29:34] You know, there's more and more sensory friendly movies with not quite as loud or sensory friendly restaurants where, you know, maybe darker and not as many lights and quieter stuff.

[00:29:47] That's right.

[00:29:47] So some people with sensory processing issues are not comfortable with stuff that we take for granted.

[00:29:54] Uh, lighting in schools.

[00:29:56] Now everybody is into a non flickering lights because those kids could see the flickering all the time.

[00:30:03] So, so that's one example.

[00:30:05] The most popular article we ever put on our blog was a quick, it was a quiz.

[00:30:12] Do you want to be called an autistic person or a person with autism?

[00:30:16] Um, we had, I think 20,000 people vote on this in like a month.

[00:30:23] Uh, it was kind of 50, 50.

[00:30:29] Um, but, but, but, and, and we can't analyze it because we didn't ask people any more information.

[00:30:34] We didn't ask them what their age were.

[00:30:36] We didn't ask them if they had, uh, if they were in our neurodivergent or if they had, if they were caring for someone who was.

[00:30:44] Um, so we can't really say anything beyond the fact that it is a popular topic and, and, and we weren't quite as aware of it.

[00:30:51] So now having said that, they don't belong in this neurodivergent movement because their kids are never going to be able to be comfortable no matter what accommodation you put in.

[00:31:04] They're the people who will, who, you know, physically harm themselves, uh, you know, break their skin, break bones, that kind of stuff.

[00:31:14] People who will never be able to talk, who will never be able to do certain things.

[00:31:19] I'm talking about severe dysfunction.

[00:31:23] And these aren't also neurodivergent.

[00:31:27] If you look at the technical definition of the autism spectrum, I hope that one day they split the autism spectrum into, you know, different categories because it, I'm autistic.

[00:31:37] According to the definition of the autism spectrum, everybody is almost, and it's not, maybe it's good for embracing diversity.

[00:31:46] Maybe it's a good way of doing that, but there's a lot of parents out there who just feel offended.

[00:31:50] No, my kid has issues.

[00:31:52] He needs help.

[00:31:54] He needs mendability.

[00:31:56] He needs his abilities mended.

[00:31:58] And so, so there's a place for that.

[00:32:01] And this is where we usually end up working anyway.

[00:32:04] We don't work a lot with parents.

[00:32:07] And who, who have children, who, who with some accommodations will end up probably being able to live a semi-independent life, pay taxes and have relationships.

[00:32:18] Oh, well, I mean, I love it.

[00:32:21] I love your, your attitude is one of curiosity and continual learning.

[00:32:28] And being fluid, you know, and just valuing people.

[00:32:32] Like, I like it.

[00:32:33] We, we just want kids to feel joy.

[00:32:35] If you talked to me 25, 30 years ago, you would not have liked me.

[00:32:42] I don't like the, the young me.

[00:32:45] I was so, I was an overzealous, self-righteous, very black and white man.

[00:32:54] I think it's.

[00:32:55] Well, but that's how, that's how we are.

[00:32:58] I was, when I think about how the fights I used to get in with people and my opinionated nature in my twenties, I go, ooh.

[00:33:04] But that was what you needed to be.

[00:33:07] It's like, I call that arrogant confidence.

[00:33:09] Because otherwise you wouldn't take the risks that you did if you didn't have that arrogant confidence.

[00:33:14] And then over time you become humbled and you have experiences, but you need those.

[00:33:18] You're going to have to accept that part of you.

[00:33:21] So, okay.

[00:33:21] So now let's get to your expertise, which is the brain's natural healing capacity.

[00:33:27] And I know you have some stories, um, to bring and stories are, you know, the best way for people to truly know and understand.

[00:33:37] And stories usually have a, okay, what was the issue?

[00:33:40] What was the challenge and what happened during this experience with you?

[00:33:45] And, and then how, how has, how has life changed?

[00:33:48] How have these kids sense of themselves really?

[00:33:52] How, how has that changed and how do they see their future now?

[00:33:57] You know, we've been doing this for a long time.

[00:33:59] So there's, there's some stories that stand out in the context of this conversation.

[00:34:05] Um, but, uh, the first one I want to share is not neurodivergent.

[00:34:10] He was just a, you know, 80 year old man with late stage Parkinson's.

[00:34:17] He needed to take a pill to then five minutes later, he could take himself to the bathroom.

[00:34:23] And within 10 minutes, he'd be back into frozen stage.

[00:34:26] So in, in, in middle stages, you shake, right?

[00:34:30] And you shake because your brain stops being able to release and produce and regulate dopamine.

[00:34:36] Dopamine tells your muscles to stop moving.

[00:34:39] Your muscles are made to move constantly.

[00:34:41] And so when your dopamine doesn't work well, you end up with hyperactivity.

[00:34:47] For example, you end up with those children who just have this urge to move.

[00:34:52] It's a physiological urge because their dopamine is not slowing them down.

[00:34:58] And it's funny because you think of dopamine at this high, as this drug that motivates you.

[00:35:03] And this is what drives you to move physiologically with muscles.

[00:35:07] Dopamine actually stops you.

[00:35:11] And so in Parkinson's, you end up with shaking.

[00:35:14] And then when them, there's a later stage where you're completely frozen.

[00:35:19] So this is where, this is the stage that this person was at when they came to us.

[00:35:24] And I remember, I don't know if it was the first or second session,

[00:35:30] but we have, one of the ways to get the brain to produce more,

[00:35:36] to regulate its dopamine function better is through the sense of smell.

[00:35:40] The olfactory bulb is connected to a lot of different parts of the brain.

[00:35:45] And one of them is the production and regulation center for dopamine.

[00:35:50] And it's, they call it the second brain because it's so malleable and it's so interconnected.

[00:35:56] The olfactory bulb is this tiny little thing right behind, between the nose and the brain.

[00:36:01] And it does so many things and it's super plastic.

[00:36:04] If you smell something you like, you release twice as much dopamine instantly as you had.

[00:36:11] If you combine a nice smell, you know, your favorite candle, I'm looking for something on my desk.

[00:36:18] I just moved offices and you know what, I didn't bring my smell with me.

[00:36:22] I'm always picking up my candles.

[00:36:24] They're not even lit.

[00:36:25] Yes.

[00:36:26] Like I'm taking a shot of something.

[00:36:29] If you combine that, it's perfect.

[00:36:31] That's exactly it.

[00:36:32] If you combine that with any other pleasurable sensory activity, like a backticle, you know,

[00:36:38] so you grab yourself a back scratcher while you're smelling, your dopamine level goes from

[00:36:43] 100% more to 300% more.

[00:36:47] It's huge.

[00:36:48] We're not, pills can't do that.

[00:36:50] And it's the brain.

[00:36:51] Yeah.

[00:36:52] Do you know what I do?

[00:36:54] I'll just start like doing this on my legs.

[00:36:57] So maybe that's my intuition.

[00:37:00] Do that with your candle on the desk.

[00:37:03] And I feel really silly that visually I didn't come prepared for this.

[00:37:07] And I should have been, but so anyway, so during our session, we train the wife.

[00:37:14] She's going to do all these enriching activities, expose the brain to those new experiences in

[00:37:22] a way that's focused enough and intense enough that it will break through that therapeutic

[00:37:26] threshold.

[00:37:26] Cause we smell all the time.

[00:37:27] We touch all the time.

[00:37:28] We look, you know, this guy was smelling stuff, but how, and how come now when we introduce

[00:37:34] you smell in a new way, all of a sudden his brain changes.

[00:37:37] Well, that's what happened.

[00:37:38] But the first time it happened, he started bawling.

[00:37:42] I was like, oh crap, what am I doing?

[00:37:44] He said, it feels so good.

[00:37:48] While he was bawling, you know?

[00:37:50] And I, I like, I wanted, this felt like the first story to share because it says everything

[00:37:56] that I wish people listening need to know about our program.

[00:38:02] First and foremost, it's there to help you feel good.

[00:38:05] And then it's there to help to change your brain so that you can feel good more of the time.

[00:38:12] And when that happens, all sorts of things can unlock.

[00:38:15] We can also improve connectivity.

[00:38:17] We can also improve connect, you know, uh, processing speed.

[00:38:21] And we'll do that later on, but first we do that.

[00:38:25] And, um, eventually this person needed less and less of his medication and he could move

[00:38:31] around and he could start to live independently.

[00:38:33] And, um, and, and we've done that.

[00:38:37] And this is what my mom was doing again and again and again.

[00:38:42] And this is what sort of converted me to the impact of, and now that I see the clinical evidence.

[00:38:48] So what she, at the time she was doing this, she was all doing this based on animal studies

[00:38:54] and she was translating the protocols to hands-on things that, that, that people could do at

[00:39:02] home to help their, their special person.

[00:39:05] Um, but since then there have been more and more human studies showing how doing things in

[00:39:12] an organized way with the environment can have an impact, a permanent impact.

[00:39:17] It's just being intentional.

[00:39:18] On rewiring the way your brain is, is, is.

[00:39:21] Wow.

[00:39:23] Oh my God.

[00:39:24] No wonder you're so fricking excited.

[00:39:26] Right.

[00:39:27] And I'm so sad too, because when the first randomized controlled trial was published.

[00:39:34] So, you know, my, one of my first contributions was to get, and it took 10 years to get the

[00:39:40] study published.

[00:39:41] Oh my gosh.

[00:39:42] First reason was as soon as, and the guy, so the, the scientists at the university of

[00:39:47] California in Irvine who discovered that pairing smell and touch had this huge impact

[00:39:52] on dopamine, but also other factors.

[00:39:54] In fact, um, there's a, the combining smell and touch in particular triggers a release of

[00:40:01] norepinephrine as well as dopamine and stuff like that.

[00:40:04] And the way it's released, the spike is kind of very similar to the spike.

[00:40:07] You can observe when the brain's learning something new.

[00:40:10] So we believe that this is, and when you look at, you know, when you observe the behavior

[00:40:15] changes in the animal and the humans, you say, okay, there's some neuroplasticity stuff

[00:40:20] happening.

[00:40:21] And so we believe this is almost a secret sauce of, of the program that we have.

[00:40:26] And, and, and so the guy who discovered this in the rat, when we told him we were doing

[00:40:31] on kids, what he was doing on animals, he was super excited.

[00:40:33] And he's the first one we went to say, do you want to do a clinical study?

[00:40:36] And they're like, absolutely.

[00:40:37] I'm sick and tired of rats.

[00:40:38] Give me some people.

[00:40:40] So, uh, he went out and, and, and started to raise funds and he was friends with, uh, the

[00:40:47] director of the NIH, the National Institute of Health.

[00:40:50] Okay.

[00:40:50] And they managed funding for research from the government.

[00:40:54] And he said, Hey, this is the, this is what I want to study.

[00:40:57] I did this on animals.

[00:40:58] It's been proven without clinical evidence, but anecdotally, this person in Canada is doing

[00:41:03] it on kids.

[00:41:04] I want to validate this.

[00:41:05] And he was like, sure, sure.

[00:41:07] What is it?

[00:41:07] And he talks about smell and touch.

[00:41:09] Like you never get funding for this.

[00:41:12] Yeah.

[00:41:13] There's no pharmaceutical company involved.

[00:41:16] It's not what he said.

[00:41:17] He, he was basically saying, this is too simple.

[00:41:21] It looks like voodoo.

[00:41:22] You need to do more research on what it is about touch, what it is about smell that is

[00:41:26] having this impact and then validate that.

[00:41:29] Um, and this is when we, and this is when I started to learn that scientists are more interested

[00:41:35] in the, how it works than the weather it works.

[00:41:39] And this is what separated my mother from the rest of the scientists who were studying the

[00:41:44] same stuff about the brain is that she was, had a very practical objective.

[00:41:47] She wanted to help people.

[00:41:50] And she was able to say, look, this is risk-free.

[00:41:53] This will not, nobody will get hurt by smelling something.

[00:41:56] Well, that's not true.

[00:41:57] Now there's all sorts of chemicals and smells and you have to be careful about that.

[00:42:01] But if you do a back rub on somebody.

[00:42:04] Right.

[00:42:05] What's the risk?

[00:42:05] They bring in some lavender.

[00:42:07] Right.

[00:42:07] Okay.

[00:42:08] And there are ways to stay, you know, smell a flower.

[00:42:11] Okay.

[00:42:11] Maybe you're allergic to pollen.

[00:42:12] Okay.

[00:42:13] So maybe you're never completely safe, but compared to taking medication, right.

[00:42:18] Or some of the stuff that's up with all the list of side effects, right.

[00:42:22] With all the list of side effects, what is there to lose?

[00:42:25] And, and so she was able to sort of simplify how the brain works and say, when you do this,

[00:42:29] this has happened.

[00:42:30] So we're going to do this whenever a kid needs this kind of help, et cetera.

[00:42:35] Um, and, and so the first part that took along was getting the funding.

[00:42:42] Finally, we found somebody who was a client of ours, who knew somebody who had a foundation,

[00:42:48] blah, blah, blah.

[00:42:49] So we got the funding for this.

[00:42:50] And then when he released the study, the peer review results were like, the results are too

[00:42:55] good to be true.

[00:42:56] You must have done something wrong.

[00:42:59] Don't publish this.

[00:43:00] He was like, ah, so, so he did a second study with more kids, more questions, blah, blah,

[00:43:07] blah.

[00:43:08] There's such resistance to anything natural.

[00:43:11] I mean, it reminds me of bioidentical hormone therapy now when, when I was plunged into

[00:43:16] perimenopause, like almost 20 years ago.

[00:43:19] And my doctor had such a beautiful, you know, like she combined what they used to call complimentary

[00:43:25] medicine with like, she'd send me to an acupuncturist, even though she had training as a traditional

[00:43:31] doctor.

[00:43:31] And so she sent me, I'm like, what is bioidentical progesterone cream?

[00:43:35] Right.

[00:43:36] And, um, at the time the pharmaceutical companies were trying to get it to be illegal to use a

[00:43:43] natural because they can't patent naturally occurring things.

[00:43:47] Wow.

[00:43:47] So that's why that occurs to me right away is that your natural approach, you know, get

[00:43:52] ready.

[00:43:52] It's, it's threatening.

[00:43:53] We had first time experience with, um, with pharmaceuticals because we told them, Hey,

[00:44:01] we've got this protocol that will stop seizures.

[00:44:04] But if you keep doing it, the number of seizures also goes down and the intensity of seizures,

[00:44:08] the recovery time.

[00:44:09] Um, and it's super simple and not involves is, and we showed them the procedures like

[00:44:13] we can't patent that.

[00:44:14] See ya.

[00:44:15] Right.

[00:44:15] Exactly.

[00:44:16] I was it.

[00:44:16] I was it.

[00:44:17] That's the end of the conversation.

[00:44:18] No, let's try and do something together.

[00:44:20] It was like, not interested.

[00:44:23] But anyway, so, so then we released and when the, when the final study was released, then,

[00:44:28] uh, he was comfortable enough.

[00:44:30] And so the, the two studies were released like back to back in the same paper.

[00:44:34] Um, but it's, it just gives you a sense of how, um, it's, it's too good to be true.

[00:44:42] Too simple.

[00:44:43] It looks like voodoo.

[00:44:45] And so.

[00:44:46] Well, these are what the women healers knew way back when, probably.

[00:44:50] So when the papers were released, I really thought the world was like, would, you know,

[00:44:55] what else do they need to know?

[00:44:57] It's clinically validated.

[00:44:59] Okay.

[00:45:00] Right.

[00:45:01] But right now there's a great organized reorganizing happening right now.

[00:45:05] And so you have to find your own community and it's out there.

[00:45:09] So I did want to bring in a little bit about, um, adverse, uh, childhood experience and this

[00:45:18] framework of ACEs.

[00:45:20] And, uh, I always assume people are familiar with it, but they're really not.

[00:45:25] I just, I love knowledge.

[00:45:26] So I'm like, Ooh, this as a depth psychologist who considers that there's a psycho-spiritual

[00:45:32] aspect to all disease.

[00:45:35] This is just another, you know, another framework.

[00:45:39] Um, you know, in it and, and of course you focus on children, although your, your Parkinson's

[00:45:46] patient was an 80 year old man.

[00:45:48] So like this stuff is just, this just stuff is just good for everyone.

[00:45:52] But anyway, um, so I don't know if you want to, you know, talk a little bit, you do know

[00:45:58] something about ACEs.

[00:45:59] So if you want to talk a little bit about that and maybe connect it then to, uh, the sensory

[00:46:05] enrichment therapy, because when we talk about, you know, re-parenting ourselves as adults

[00:46:14] or not re-parenting, but when we identify my work, when we identify the root of a dysfunctional

[00:46:20] pattern of thinking and behaving, and then it's, Oh, I wasn't grounded with unconditional

[00:46:27] love.

[00:46:28] For example, many of us aren't right.

[00:46:29] So then what do we do as adults?

[00:46:31] Right.

[00:46:31] Then we need to do a therapy on ourselves.

[00:46:36] And the, you know, so when you talked about like the, you know, the, the sense, I think,

[00:46:44] you know, what a lot of adults need to focus on is that grounding.

[00:46:48] And so bringing in sensory enrichment can be part of that.

[00:46:55] So I don't know, whatever you, you know, whatever your thoughts are about this really interesting,

[00:47:00] what to me seems intuitive that, you know, the negative experiences of childhood, even if

[00:47:06] they're rather typical, when added up each experience, this is how I describe it as a child,

[00:47:14] you know, a teacher can say something, not knowing that they really, truly deeply hurt

[00:47:21] a child.

[00:47:22] And because of that experience, children just move on.

[00:47:25] So they don't really process the drama of the emotion that they experienced, but the emotion

[00:47:31] stays in their body.

[00:47:32] Number one.

[00:47:33] And number two, it causes them to avoid or to pursue, right.

[00:47:38] To pursue either the love that they're looking for, or to avoid a certain situation where

[00:47:42] they had that dramatic experience happen.

[00:47:45] And then they begin to their patterns of behaving and thinking and reacting to things start to

[00:47:51] shape.

[00:47:52] And then the brain, you know, the brain looks to affirm and confirm the reticular activating

[00:47:56] system.

[00:47:57] So that's why eventually in adulthood, we could be like, why am I so dysfunctional?

[00:48:01] Because those behaviors helped you.

[00:48:03] They're survival mechanisms, but then they get in the way of the growth.

[00:48:07] So then it makes, it makes sense that if you're not able to process those emotional, those

[00:48:13] emotions, that then that stays in the body.

[00:48:17] And, you know, then you end up with disease.

[00:48:20] And if these days you can, you know, search for what's the spiritual meaning of cancer.

[00:48:25] And, you know, some people say that it has to do with the repression of negative emotions

[00:48:30] that really didn't get expressed.

[00:48:32] So that that's the lens that I use sort of a soulful psychological lens.

[00:48:37] But in, you know, in your therapy, you know, you combine this brain thing, but with relationship,

[00:48:44] like that's what's so beautiful about your work is that it is like, it brings mind and

[00:48:49] body together.

[00:48:50] Right.

[00:48:51] And then you've got the soul in there as well.

[00:48:53] So I don't know, whatever, wherever you want to go with that.

[00:48:57] I like to think I'm a spiritual person too.

[00:49:00] I'm deeply interested in all those things.

[00:49:02] You are.

[00:49:04] I'm not an expert.

[00:49:06] I haven't really looked into it except for, you know, the level of interest that I have.

[00:49:11] So it's interesting to me how everything is, feels connected.

[00:49:17] You know, you talk about adverse childhood events and there's tons.

[00:49:22] It's funny that you say that people are not aware because, I mean, I guess I'm in that

[00:49:27] world.

[00:49:27] So of course I'm aware there's tons of studies, hundreds.

[00:49:32] And you reach a level of maturity in the clinical research in that area that now the studies

[00:49:38] are studies of studies where you have people doing this called meta-analysis where they

[00:49:44] look at all the studies right there and they'll look for keywords to say, I want to look in

[00:49:48] all the studies, people who've looked at this exact thing or this particular thing.

[00:49:52] Okay.

[00:49:53] So, and this is happening now and it's been happening now for 15 years, these meta-analyses.

[00:49:59] So, so it is a mature area of research.

[00:50:03] Unfortunately, all they've done is to confirm what we kind of already knew that if you have

[00:50:10] adverse childhood events in your childhood, they pile up.

[00:50:15] But it's kind of cool, I guess, to see the statistical correlation, you know, for example, I, in preparation

[00:50:24] for this, I dug up some of the papers and I looked at some of the numbers that are there

[00:50:28] and see if I look like I'm reading, it's because I am.

[00:50:31] I don't have those figures and numbers memorized, but they were like, it's, which one is the most

[00:50:39] fun number.

[00:50:40] Well, actually that particular study that I looked up and they were looking at anything

[00:50:45] that could possibly be considered an adverse childhood event, including the financial situation

[00:50:51] of the family.

[00:50:53] And they found out that it all leads to something, but really the strongest two events that will

[00:51:01] have an impact on whether you end up.

[00:51:03] And that was a study that was looking at correlating adverse childhood events and the use of healthcare.

[00:51:09] If you're more likely to, and it could be anything, emergency room use, going to see your doctor,

[00:51:16] pain, pain, you're 24% more likely to report pain if you've had two or more adverse childhood

[00:51:25] events.

[00:51:27] This is bad.

[00:51:29] I mean, and they talk about physio, somatico, psychological, like how do you end up with

[00:51:38] pain?

[00:51:40] Well, pain.

[00:51:40] Well, I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole specific field of depth psychology called somatic

[00:51:46] depth psychology.

[00:51:47] So it is really exploring and coming into relationship with this pain or Eckhart Tolle, if you're familiar

[00:51:53] with Eckhart Tolle, he talks about the pain body, right?

[00:51:58] So yeah.

[00:51:59] So chronic pain is a manifestation of inner suffering.

[00:52:03] Yeah.

[00:52:04] I mean, to me, to me, it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense.

[00:52:08] Yeah.

[00:52:08] Yeah.

[00:52:08] So, so like as you know, most of the research looks at correlating stuff that we kind of

[00:52:13] already know instinctively, you got a bad childhood, you end up.

[00:52:15] But you know, to your, to your point and where I get frustrated too is, you know, the brain,

[00:52:20] now there's neuropsychology, neuro, neuro, neuro.

[00:52:22] And I'm like, okay, all right.

[00:52:23] So you've confirmed what intuitively makes sense to what end, what is the end?

[00:52:28] And what I really appreciate about your work, which is why you'll have to figure out which,

[00:52:33] which way to go.

[00:52:34] Well, your company, your company's work is that you are actually about healing.

[00:52:40] Like, you don't, you don't need, you don't need it to be keep proven to you.

[00:52:44] You're like, in the meantime, and I don't, I don't know if this is connected, but like,

[00:52:49] I'm detaching from the whole medical world.

[00:52:51] I don't, I don't go to like, I, when I came of age, it was the age of supposed prevention.

[00:52:56] You, you know, kids go to the doctor six months, 12 months, 24 months, that still makes sense.

[00:53:02] But as an adult, every year you go get this and you go get this and you're going to test

[00:53:05] it for this.

[00:53:06] And actually, I know there's other research about how, you know, prevention can also

[00:53:12] become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:53:13] So if you get people stressed out about getting breast cancer by making them get a mammogram

[00:53:17] every single year, now they don't.

[00:53:19] So now they don't.

[00:53:20] I need to, I don't remember the name of that professor, but she's all about the mind-body

[00:53:25] connection.

[00:53:26] So you probably have heard of her because she's been doing studies since the late seventies

[00:53:30] and she did a really, she looked at borderline cases where if you pass a threshold, you're

[00:53:39] diagnosed with something.

[00:53:40] But if you're just, just below that threshold, you're not diagnosed with that thing.

[00:53:44] And they look at the evolution of the disease in those two categories of people and the people

[00:53:48] who were told they were diagnosed with it, their situation worsened.

[00:53:52] And the people who weren't told, they said, no, no, you don't meet the criteria.

[00:53:55] Their situation improved.

[00:53:58] There's another one where, oh, this is some crazy stuff where.

[00:54:02] Yeah.

[00:54:03] So, I mean, it's like, I don't know.

[00:54:05] It's like we are circling back to something, right?

[00:54:09] So, so, you know, part of our rhythm of evolution is to go back and bring forward that wisdom

[00:54:18] that still is true.

[00:54:21] And so what, when we bring it back, we're innovative about it, but, you know, it's just, I don't

[00:54:27] know, it's a whole other conversation, but there are these forces, right.

[00:54:31] That are trying to keep us from being empowered in our own health, because then it impacts somebody's

[00:54:38] pocketbook.

[00:54:38] And it's, it's very manipulative.

[00:54:40] I mean, the system really is designed to get the results it gets.

[00:54:44] And in this country, it keeps people unhealthy because that's profitable.

[00:54:48] And that's just a fact.

[00:54:50] So, okay.

[00:54:51] So my last question has to do about, I mean, you already shared a specific example of what

[00:54:58] somebody could try.

[00:54:59] So I wonder if you have, I wonder if you have another, like just another.

[00:55:05] So I talked about smell and pairing smell and touch.

[00:55:09] And I feel like if that's all you do, it has so many positive benefits.

[00:55:16] You do that.

[00:55:17] And by the way, wouldn't you say you can do it on yourself too?

[00:55:22] Yes.

[00:55:23] Yes.

[00:55:24] It's not as great.

[00:55:25] Well, it's, it's pros and cons.

[00:55:27] If you can have the perfect practical administered to you while you're in a passive state, then

[00:55:35] you can focus your brain.

[00:55:37] All it has to do is, is perceive.

[00:55:40] But if you do it to yourself, it has to administer, move, plan, and it dilutes and it, and you

[00:55:48] don't have, you cannot change the brain as a result.

[00:55:50] You'll feel great.

[00:55:51] It'll be awesome.

[00:55:52] Um, but if somebody is, but if you do it to yourself, you do it just right, right?

[00:55:58] Just deep enough and in a perfect, Oh, let to the left right there.

[00:56:02] And that elevates the sensation.

[00:56:05] And that could, and if you combine it with another pleasurable activity, then when, because

[00:56:11] you have that burst, like that 400% release, then it becomes therapeutic.

[00:56:17] So if you, if you just back scratch yourself or smell yourself, it's fine, it's good, but

[00:56:23] you don't get the change in wiring that you can do by, uh, pairing and doing that consistently.

[00:56:30] And by that, I mean twice a day.

[00:56:32] What is going to happen if you do that well, is you're going to get worse in about a day.

[00:56:39] And that's how you know that you've actually triggered a change in the brain.

[00:56:43] I don't know if you've ever taken, uh, medication or stopped taking medication or started a diet

[00:56:49] or stopped a diet or anything that has an impact on how your brain works will trigger

[00:56:54] a regression initially.

[00:56:56] Um, well, that seems to be part of growth that right before a spurt of growth, there is this

[00:57:01] like, yes, sort of, yes.

[00:57:03] And so when, when, when our clients call us and say, you promised me, my kid would be

[00:57:08] my worst nightmare.

[00:57:10] And I didn't think it could happen.

[00:57:11] It's happening.

[00:57:12] We say congratulations.

[00:57:13] And it's a bit of a fun conversation.

[00:57:16] Fortunately, it doesn't last very long.

[00:57:18] And within a few days, your brain has stabilized with this new level of activity and growth,

[00:57:23] and you can continue on, but you need to keep the momentum going.

[00:57:26] The brain is designed to protect you.

[00:57:29] And one of the ways it does that is by conserving energy.

[00:57:32] And it takes a lot of energy to rewire itself.

[00:57:35] And so you have to nudge it, just respectfully, but consistently.

[00:57:42] So we talk about psychological, the psyche, the same exact way.

[00:57:46] It's a closed energy system.

[00:57:48] It's just the energy has to shift and you have to take it from someplace in order to focus

[00:57:53] on something new.

[00:57:54] And it's funny because that's what I think is happening during that regression phase is

[00:57:57] that the brain has to let something go in order to adjust.

[00:58:01] But it's only a working theory.

[00:58:03] There's, I don't know.

[00:58:04] It's just something we came up with.

[00:58:06] It's a way of explaining it that makes sense to us, but we don't have data for that.

[00:58:12] So that's great.

[00:58:13] And I don't want, I had thought of bringing something else to the table, but I feel like

[00:58:19] I would dilute the impact of guys do this one thing.

[00:58:25] And yes, do this one thing that the touch and smell, touch and smell, touch and smell.

[00:58:32] I would listeners, I would love for you to let me know how doing that, like, so, okay.

[00:58:38] Is there, I mean, I think I touched on everything I wanted to touch on and, you know, you and

[00:58:42] I met each other a few months ago.

[00:58:45] And, you know, one of the things that we have in common is that we have these amazing programs

[00:58:50] that we're trying to get out into the hands of more people.

[00:58:54] And so, you know, part of our, my new strategy is partnering with people who are offering

[00:58:59] amazing programs and helping each other out.

[00:59:02] So for you, tell my listeners like, and I'll put all the links in my description box, like,

[00:59:07] where do you want them to go?

[00:59:08] Where can they go to get maybe some more education, some more?

[00:59:12] I love your blog, by the way.

[00:59:13] So your blog posts are really informative.

[00:59:15] And, you know, I don't know, everybody knows somebody who is challenged with something.

[00:59:23] I mean, honestly, there's something for everybody on your website.

[00:59:27] So, but where do you want people to go?

[00:59:31] We have some free guides that you can download on our website.

[00:59:35] And they're kind of like an entryway into our program where in five to six pages, we explain

[00:59:43] what it is in the brain that we're trying to help and how we're doing it and then describe

[00:59:48] the protocols.

[00:59:49] Um, so there's three, we got three popular ones and I'll, I'll name them to you.

[00:59:55] You can just let me know what link to share.

[00:59:58] That's fine.

[00:59:58] And then as far as like people who might want, you know, your program, is there like an ideal

[01:00:05] sort of like, how does somebody know?

[01:00:07] I mean, I guess if they go to their website, they'll know if they like, you have a program

[01:00:11] that they need, but like, can you tell my listeners like, oh, our perfect sort of client

[01:00:17] is somebody who's in this situation.

[01:00:20] Our perfect client is the one who wants their kid to be happy.

[01:00:26] And they have already done things in the past to change their lifestyle, to improve, increase

[01:00:35] the likelihood that their child's going to be happy, you know, uh, and whatever that is,

[01:00:39] that that's our ideal client because we're going to give them homework and it can't be

[01:00:46] a new thing because it's going to be hard to, to do homework.

[01:00:51] The homework is five minutes.

[01:00:53] And I think that's one of the problems is it's too short.

[01:00:56] It's too easy to say, I'll do it right after, right after this thing that I'm going to do

[01:01:01] this and then I'll do the, I'll bring in my kid and we'll do some sensory enrichment.

[01:01:05] Um, we'll have a moment together.

[01:01:08] And I think if it was two, three hours, then they'd be forced to schedule it and move, move,

[01:01:14] push things aside to then put this in and then it'd benefit.

[01:01:17] And maybe that's what we need to do.

[01:01:18] Maybe we need to package the five minutes into a three hour program.

[01:01:22] Okay.

[01:01:22] Well, that sounds good.

[01:01:24] All right.

[01:01:25] And I'll, I'll share your, well, tell us your website and are you on social media?

[01:01:31] Do people follow you on Instagram?

[01:01:32] And yeah, if you Google mend ability, you'll find us on YouTube.

[01:01:38] Uh, we put all of our podcasts and we've got a bunch of webinars and we've got some samples

[01:01:42] and we got a bunch of stuff there.

[01:01:44] And you could just give me all those links.

[01:01:47] So, um, thanks so much for being on dose of depth.

[01:01:52] Thank you, Debra.

[01:01:53] It was lovely to talk yet again.

[01:01:55] We need to do this more.

[01:01:57] Yeah, that sounds great.

[01:01:59] So thank you everyone for, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kim of mend ability.

[01:02:06] And I hope we inspired you to wonder about the healing properties of your brain and also

[01:02:13] wonder about the traits associated with autism and other spectrum challenges.

[01:02:18] And, you know, just what are these, you know, what are these traits and what are the kids

[01:02:23] mirroring back to us?

[01:02:24] And, you know, we're not here, you know, it's not about fixing people.

[01:02:28] It's really about relating to people.

[01:02:30] So, and then one more thing, if you enjoyed this interview, please like subscribe and share

[01:02:36] and also support my production of this free content as a monthly supporter.

[01:02:41] I'll include that link too.

[01:02:42] And then also check out my new coaching program, depth of wisdom.

[01:02:46] It's a deep dive into your unconscious to uncover the roots of patterns that aren't working anymore

[01:02:52] or the patterns that aren't working anymore.

[01:02:54] And you'll also learn the body parts, how to harness the wisdom of the body and breathe

[01:02:59] better and get relief from anxiety.

[01:03:01] And then, then how your life is connected to, you know, your ancestry.

[01:03:06] And then finally, how sexual energy seeks to flow through you to create something new

[01:03:11] in service of others.

[01:03:12] And I'll include a link to that program plus a free resource you can get as well.

[01:03:18] So until next time.

[01:03:24] I'm your host, Debra Lukovic, and you were listening to Dose of Depth podcast.

[01:03:29] To get updates on new episodes, my writing, and how I teach my clients to get to know that

[01:03:34] deeper part of themselves, go to deborahlukovic.com.

[01:03:38] Oh, and if you're not ready for a coach, learn what my clients know in my book,

[01:03:43] Your Soul is Talking.

[01:03:43] Are you listening?

[01:03:45] Five Steps to Uncovering Your Hidden Purpose.

[01:03:47] You can check it out on my website or get it on Amazon.